I have to ask....whats the point anymore [Archive]

Destria

02-15-2009, 12:38 PM

with the latest changes to fighters(still in test, and not live THANK GOD), an across the board massbeating with the nerf bat, and forcing us all into a cookie cutter....back at launch, a berserker was an offensive tank, with a guardian being the defensive counterpart to that. NOW, tank in def. or die, or your group dies....well, the DPS will at any rate. Why arent we just all being stripped down to being called a fighter, because we sure aren't berserkers. whatever it is we're supposed to be now...I hope you fix our class name accordingly. The real problem, isnt tanks being able to push out a little dps, and gods know, us non-raid geared,and non-top of the line instance geared ones, arent pushing out anything regular over about 3k, unless we hit a group encounter, and pop off open wounds, or some other such aoe mass destruction. A guardian, putting out 10K....what a joke, if they are, they're in some heavy top end raid gear...and WHY shouldnt they be doing that???? if they're putting out that kind of DPS the rest of their raid force is doing DOUBLE!!!!The Taunt modifications with this update on test, GREAT, added hate gain methods, AWESOME, crit taunts, AWESOME....but the rest...is just trash. Forcing all tank types into one "fighter class" cookie cutter mold.So, Aeralik, Sony, Devs, and GMs, and fellow berserkers, I ask you....what pray tell is the point of having a berserker, let along ANY fighter>class>subclass, beyond the latest and greatest "tank fix" thats been cooked up???

Obadiah

02-15-2009, 05:31 PM

<cite>Erszebeth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, Aeralik, Sony, Devs, and GMs, and fellow berserkers, I ask you....what pray tell is the point of having a berserker, let along ANY fighter>class>subclass, beyond the latest and greatest "tank fix" thats been cooked up???</blockquote>Someone said in another thread that you could now combine the 4 plate tanks into one and no one would miss what was lost. I think that's probably closer to being true now than ever before.IMO it's a "careful what you wish for" scenario. Every plate fighter has asked repeatedly for what the others have. Gradually (and then abruptly with TSO) those wishes have been granted. GU50 alone made for a lot of "vanilla" with the Fighters. This round makes more.There are still differences between us, to be sure. But since we all need the tools to do the same thing, there's more and more vanilla.

Gisallo

02-15-2009, 07:10 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Erszebeth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, Aeralik, Sony, Devs, and GMs, and fellow berserkers, I ask you....what pray tell is the point of having a berserker, let along ANY fighter>class>subclass, beyond the latest and greatest "tank fix" thats been cooked up???</blockquote>Someone said in another thread that you could now combine the 4 plate tanks into one and no one would miss what was lost. I think that's probably closer to being true now than ever before.IMO it's a "careful what you wish for" scenario. Every plate fighter has asked repeatedly for what the others have. Gradually (and then abruptly with TSO) those wishes have been granted. GU50 alone made for a lot of "vanilla" with the Fighters. This round makes more.There are still differences between us, to be sure. But since we all need the tools to do the same thing, there's more and more vanilla.</blockquote>Yep I came to the conclusion the other day that the only "real" difference between an SK and a Zerker come this revamp (if it goes live I still pray no) is that Zerkers can dual wield and the particle effects. I do however think it has less to do with players asking for what other tanks had. For the most part the ideas (at least the good ones) were for small little things such as "a little more survivability and an extra snap aggro tool please". This is hardly "asking for what other tanks have." The only thing I can think of now is that this is simply part of the continuing trend to dumb down the game in order to compete with WoW and other games. I have spoken with players who have when they were dismayed that they had trouble holding aggro. I asked them what they were doing and it eithger came down to "well I am throwing my taunts, whats up?" or "what are these taunts you speak of?" They were not learning the class and all of the tools the class had.I have also spoken to sub par dpsers and have been told "casting order whats that?" by mages "what do you mean I should time my autoattacks, how can they be over 50% of my total damage? Isn't that was the Combat arts are for?" by Rangers etc. And I have been told by all of them "you mean it REALLY matters what kind of gear I have? Thats not fair." Well hopefully if tanks aren't doing their medicore dps, the mediocre dpsers will stop complaining along with the paper tanks.This change is not about good players who bothered to learn their class, found what was broken, and asked for it to be fixed. Its about trying to make it so that the people who do not bother to do this (the majority of players) will hopefully be able to do the job they would have failed at in the past and thus make the game more "popular". Its kinda like what I call "The Jeapordy scenario." When that game show first came out the questions were really difficult. The fans didn't like the fact though that 3 egg heads were getting all the money and making them feel stupid while they watched. As time went on the questions got easier and easier. As the questions got easier and the people watching at home could actually answer them, the number of viewers increased. I hope this doesn't go live as is. I love my class and would hate to shelve it. If it does go live I can only hope that the trend ends here though because there are only so many classes that are challenging to play AND that actually appeal to me. I would hate a to see a constant retreat through the different classes until I am finally forced out of the game by what is in essence a dumbing down.

LygerT

02-16-2009, 04:06 AM

i don't think one plate tank is too far from the truth. with every change we get closer to being the same. for some reason i accept that and at the same time i want to cancel my sub in disgust that the balance has pushed me this far.i can't help but remember a time when i gave up my survivability to do more damage, then i saw guards doing almost identical damage so i asked for my tools to mean something again or to get more tools to help me survive, we got more "tanking tools" because we are tanks and not damage dealers, as time has gone on we become less and less of a berserker.i know people have asked me for advice in the past but to tell the truth, sadly, i have given up on this class because there will never be balance and the berserker has suffered enough. for those who rule the heroic zones, enjoy your time.

Bremer

02-16-2009, 03:31 PM

With the current state of the tank update, with Guardians doing the same DPS, taunting for 50 % more and having superior survivabilty you really have to wonder what the point is. With Aerilka saying he will only do some "minor" tweaks when they have to rethink the basic ideas of this revamp I'm not very optimistic for the future.

LygerT

02-16-2009, 05:13 PM

the basic point is it is up to you all what you want to do, we will still be one of the best heroic tanks but as raid offtanks, well, i'll put it bluntly and say SKs need to be nerfed in survivability and dps to put us on an even plane. many will deny that they got bumped above us but i'm fairly sure those who have played with experienced SKs have already seen what they are capable of now.this game has no balance and seemingly never will. being forced to tank in defensive will hinder our class so much that i really don't even want to look at it. zerks have had the hardest time tanking in defensive of any fighter for good reason and those reasons will still exist. while you likely will be able to maintain aggro you still will not be as defensive nor as offensive as a result.

Bremer

02-16-2009, 06:18 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>zerks have had the hardest time tanking in defensive of any fighter for good reason and those reasons will still exist. while you likely will be able to maintain aggro you still will not be as defensive nor as offensive as a result.</blockquote>That they force us into tanking in def stance (can live with that) without changing anything at our CA dps (not with that) shows that SOE either has no clue why Beserkers tanked in off stance or they are unwilling to spend the time to fix the class to be able to hold aggro without high autoattack DPS.

LygerT

02-16-2009, 07:15 PM

a few people have worked out some threat per second reports, figures that to me look pretty accurate. add in our lower auto attack hit rate because of our class issues and lower survivablity and you have a pretty ****tastic class.if the future truly is supposed to be AE vs single target then all tanks should have equal survivability. as things sit, there is too many areas that are out of whack between tanks. they would be better off making one plate tank and one leather tank.i don't want more survivability, i want to deal more dps for that lack of survivability as the term i looked for in a "berserker". had things been balanced in AE and single target content, things would have been ok so to speak with minor tweaks.

Destria

02-17-2009, 10:54 AM

Its sad, but true, the more sony "fixes" things, the more and more we all become different brands of vanilla...so, I suppose, if thats how it must be-DEAR GOD DONT LET ME BE WAL-MART BRAND-I'd much rather be Ben and Jerry'sMore seriously however, originally, zerk=off. tank, but now forced, FORCED into def. we can only hope the Dev's and Aeralik are TRULY reading this, and taking it to heart. I know I hope and pray for it, and fear for my zerker everytime I see a server down time.

Vanderlay

02-17-2009, 11:55 AM

We'll just make this like the old Gauntlet game. Barbarian warrior, elf ranger, human mage, and human cleric. Get rid of all the "special" class defining abilities, and put this game into Easy mode./sarcasm off

Obadiah

02-17-2009, 08:23 PM

Looking over a taunt comparison, I've changed my mind. NO. It's not worth it anymore. We have the lowest TPS on single targets, and are not the best on multiples. We have the lowest Aggression which now is important. It's also safe to assume we're about to have our DPS reduced again (since "Some" fighters are) whenever the next round of changes come, in which case you can consider me gone and I apologize profusely for ever typing anything remotely resembling support for this lump of feces.

Bremer

02-17-2009, 08:56 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>a few people have worked out some threat per second reports, figures that to me look pretty accurate. add in our lower auto attack hit rate because of our class issues and lower survivablity and you have a pretty ****tastic class</blockquote>Do you have some numbers you can post?

Obadiah

02-17-2009, 09:37 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>a few people have worked out some threat per second reports, figures that to me look pretty accurate. add in our lower auto attack hit rate because of our class issues and lower survivablity and you have a pretty ****tastic class</blockquote>Do you have some numbers you can post?</blockquote><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=443665" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=443665</a>Look over that gem. I was being OPTIMISTIC and we still come out worse than Guardians on 3 targets. Please tell me my math is [Removed for Content] because if Aeralik goes through with FURTHER reducing our DPS in the next Test update I think we're done.

Elanjar

02-17-2009, 11:23 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>a few people have worked out some threat per second reports, figures that to me look pretty accurate. add in our lower auto attack hit rate because of our class issues and lower survivablity and you have a pretty ****tastic class</blockquote>Do you have some numbers you can post?</blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=443665" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=443665</a>Look over that gem. I was being OPTIMISTIC and we still come out worse than Guardians on 3 targets. Please tell me my math is [Removed for Content] because if Aeralik goes through with FURTHER reducing our DPS in the next Test update I think we're done.</blockquote>Agreed sir. Which is unfortunate cause I dont enjoy any of my alts even close to as much as my zerker. Plus I've finally shown my guild leader that zerkers are actually useful and get in raids regularly. Woot for gettin nerfed outa all that hard work.le sigh

Obadiah

02-17-2009, 11:33 PM

I still think it's beautifully ironic that we have the lowest Aggression of any Fighter and yet our AA suffix title is.....The Aggressor.(Actually it's "Agressor" because someone can't spell and I'm not in the special "not ignored by developers" group)

Bremer

02-18-2009, 09:49 AM

I had the same thought ^^ I also think that it quite funny that actually the class named Beserker has the lowest aggression. If you ask 10 people on the street who is more aggressive, Beserker or Paladin, I bet 10 would say Beserker.

Bremer

02-18-2009, 10:34 AM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>a few people have worked out some threat per second reports, figures that to me look pretty accurate. add in our lower auto attack hit rate because of our class issues and lower survivablity and you have a pretty ****tastic class</blockquote>Do you have some numbers you can post?</blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=443665" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=443665</a>Look over that gem. I was being OPTIMISTIC and we still come out worse than Guardians on 3 targets. Please tell me my math is [Removed for Content] because if Aeralik goes through with FURTHER reducing our DPS in the next Test update I think we're done.</blockquote>Thanks, it's pretty much as I expected. I only made a rough estimate on the single and encounter taunt, as they are the main source of hate. And these calculations don't include that eg Guardians have more aggression (= bigger tautns that land more often), they have more + taunt amount on their TSO set (and their items are easier to get) and they benefit more from the Dirge hate buff, because their base numbers are higher. Considering all these facts there is sadly no other answer for the OP than "There is none"...

Harlon

02-24-2009, 06:41 PM

heh first to the finish, stopped playing and moved to a different game. i log in once in a blue moon for old friends but the changes coming redefined the class i have played since Jan of 05. I have heard alot of the pople i used to run with say that the changes will be good for them, or their class, IE guards, and heard a paladin cry over the changes to come. Well i made the decision to not wait til we were nerfed into oblivion, i simply stopped, my accounts are active for now, as i am waiting for it to fall, but once it does if my beloved zerker dies, so than do both of my accounts.

Destria

02-25-2009, 12:17 AM

its true, with this so-called fix, we're being destroyed as a class, along with several other fighter classes. Brawlers, monks, paladins, zerkers, SK, all being destroyed with this update, YAY we can all be guardians....o wait..I tried that once /wrist.....

hieronym

02-25-2009, 08:49 AM

anyone remember when to tank was actually a skill? now its just do as much dps as you can to keep aggro. Any old herbert with a myth and some shiny bits of gear can stand there and do sick dps and keep the squishy ones alive. Thats not tanking that just easy mode!!All the fighter classes need to have their DPS dramatically lowered but getting the right solution to still keep aggro needs to be spot on.

darkdawn1

02-25-2009, 09:40 AM

<cite>hieronymus wrote:</cite><blockquote>anyone remember when to tank was actually a skill? now its just do as much dps as you can to keep aggro. Any old herbert with a myth and some shiny bits of gear can stand there and do sick dps and keep the squishy ones alive. Thats not tanking that just easy mode!!All the fighter classes need to have their DPS dramatically lowered but getting the right solution to still keep aggro needs to be spot on.</blockquote>See, I want a warrior, not a tank. I want a solo plate wearer who is like the warriors in history AKA a knight or berzerker. The guardian was supposed to be the low DPS tank that was all about holding aggro whilst the zerk was a fury warrior, a battlefield knight who fought offensively. In the zerker description, one is made to understand that the zerker is a melee monster in plate. I played WoW for years, and the zerker reminds me of the fury speced warrior. In WOW a fury warrior is poor tank, but a sweet DPS warrior. I know this isn't WOW, just saying the zerker seems like it was intended to fill such a role based upon the description. Not to mention it is nice to have variety of chouce in plate wearers, not just one type of gameplay, IMHO.Please keep in mind I am not a zerker fanboi. In fact outside of the trial play the fae I did back in '07 I have only been playing for a week now.

Windowlicker

02-25-2009, 09:55 AM

I really only care about being able to tank properly in all cases. A Berserker can still be a Berserker without a high parse imho. When people want DPS, they aren't going to invite a plate tank... even in the games current state where tanks are doing too much damage.

Bruener

02-25-2009, 02:16 PM

<cite>hieronymus wrote:</cite><blockquote>anyone remember when to tank was actually a skill? now its just do as much dps as you can to keep aggro. Any old herbert with a myth and some shiny bits of gear can stand there and do sick dps and keep the squishy ones alive. Thats not tanking that just easy mode!!All the fighter classes need to have their DPS dramatically lowered but getting the right solution to still keep aggro needs to be spot on.</blockquote>Tanking on Live right now takes more skill and thought than anything that is on Test. Maximizing a tanks DPs/agro with survivability takes a great knowledge of the class. Stance dancing adds flavor and skill. Timing auto attacks takes more skill. All of these on Live right now take more skill to tank than it ever has in the past...mainly because you are doing all of this while worrying about surviving and keeping your group members alive.Skill in tanking on Live right now is far greater than it is on test.

Bruener

02-25-2009, 02:19 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really only care about being able to tank properly in all cases. A Berserker can still be a Berserker without a high parse imho. When people want DPS, they aren't going to invite a plate tank... even in the games current state where tanks are doing too much damage.</blockquote>I cannot believe I am seeing a warlock complaining about fighter DPS. You do realize that Warlocks can out dps anybody right now. On singles they are real close to assassins and wizards and on multiples they just blow everybody away. 30k+ parses on long fights on raids is insane. I guess an offensive fighter doing half that dps could be viewed as threatening.

darkdawn1

02-25-2009, 07:59 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really only care about being able to tank properly in all cases. A Berserker can still be a Berserker without a high parse imho. When people want DPS, they aren't going to invite a plate tank... even in the games current state where tanks are doing too much damage.</blockquote>I cannot believe I am seeing a warlock complaining about fighter DPS. You do realize that Warlocks can out dps anybody right now. On singles they are real close to assassins and wizards and on multiples they just blow everybody away. 30k+ parses on long fights on raids is insane. I guess an offensive fighter doing half that dps could be viewed as threatening.</blockquote>QFE - that and not all of the folks who roll a zerker even want to tank for raids. Some of us just want to solo faster than a snail.

LygerT

02-26-2009, 04:01 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hieronymus wrote:</cite><blockquote>anyone remember when to tank was actually a skill? now its just do as much dps as you can to keep aggro. Any old herbert with a myth and some shiny bits of gear can stand there and do sick dps and keep the squishy ones alive. Thats not tanking that just easy mode!!All the fighter classes need to have their DPS dramatically lowered but getting the right solution to still keep aggro needs to be spot on.</blockquote>Tanking on Live right now takes more skill and thought than anything that is on Test. Maximizing a tanks DPs/agro with survivability takes a great knowledge of the class. Stance dancing adds flavor and skill. Timing auto attacks takes more skill. All of these on Live right now take more skill to tank than it ever has in the past...mainly because you are doing all of this while worrying about surviving and keeping your group members alive.Skill in tanking on Live right now is far greater than it is on test.</blockquote>qfenot sure why he would think that tanking on live is easymode versus what that is on test unless you count them breaking taunts to doing half what they are supposed to be doing. balancing gear, survivability and dps is a skill. now if you are a zerker always running around with a stacked group and in offensive then yes, that takes no skill. now go take a group with a couple illies, ranger, solo healer and a mythicalled wizard and see how easymode it is to run through a zone.

Elanjar

02-26-2009, 05:12 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hieronymus wrote:</cite><blockquote>anyone remember when to tank was actually a skill? now its just do as much dps as you can to keep aggro. Any old herbert with a myth and some shiny bits of gear can stand there and do sick dps and keep the squishy ones alive. Thats not tanking that just easy mode!!All the fighter classes need to have their DPS dramatically lowered but getting the right solution to still keep aggro needs to be spot on.</blockquote>Tanking on Live right now takes more skill and thought than anything that is on Test. Maximizing a tanks DPs/agro with survivability takes a great knowledge of the class. Stance dancing adds flavor and skill. Timing auto attacks takes more skill. All of these on Live right now take more skill to tank than it ever has in the past...mainly because you are doing all of this while worrying about surviving and keeping your group members alive.Skill in tanking on Live right now is far greater than it is on test.</blockquote>qfenot sure why he would think that tanking on live is easymode versus what that is on test unless you count them breaking taunts to doing half what they are supposed to be doing. balancing gear, survivability and dps is a skill. now if you are a zerker always running around with a stacked group and in offensive then yes, that takes no skill. now go take a group with a couple illies, ranger, solo healer and a mythicalled wizard and see how easymode it is to run through a zone.</blockquote>quoting this QFE for more emphasiswizzy's pwn my face. Rangers and illy's can be pretty bad too. It doesnt help that the dirge i usually have doesnt like to run hate outside of raid. freakin dps [Removed for Content].speaking of which. Am I the only one that has an issue being told i should do lower dps while tanking than a pure utility class like bards?? They earn 4 freakin raid spots because of how much utility they bring and they're still supposed dps higher than a fighter (even the off tank whos probably just picking up crap adds)

Axxe

02-27-2009, 08:27 AM

Well, I gotta' say, I dunno' about y'all. But as both a Berserker and pvp'er from day one, I find the class to be .. a wonderful expirience.. and shall Always remain as one. Can honestly say, I am not all to familiar with the 'PvE-Zerker', but with the current standing of this class as is(granted, Yes, it needs a few touches of some good love) it's a truly unique role to play within the pvp department of eq2, in my opinion - Easily capable of demolishing entire groups within seconds from their dps alone, let alone the others of your groups. Group vs group pvp, 90% of the time, my berserker is the top of the parse - only sometimes am I bested or very closely matched by a madman warlock. Basically, the Berserker class, in group(even solo) PvP anyways, is one of, if not the ultimate dps'er.. with the minute ability to tank as well, though no were near capable of sustaining aggro as effectively as say a Gaurd, or Pally, or Sk even.I merely stand in defense of this classes proclaimed short-comings in the reguards of pvp.. as I said, I am sure there are some significant problems for the Raid berserker. I know this much, as an instance running zerker, I rarely, RARELY have problems holding aggro, for even some of the toughest dps classes - or standing against my foe.So the point is, ... Bind-Wound>Turmoil>Juggernaut to Bloodshower>Intrusion>Stunningbellow>Insolence>Jeeringassault>Few-AE-autoattacks - and Everything will be Alright, because everyone who opposed ..just Died. ^__^The Real point is though, ..to strike fear into those groups, Any foolish enough to stand within yours' wake. ... but if you don't pvp, ..well I don't know. ... I Don't know What the point is man. :BERSERKER FOR LIFE! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />

Destria

03-04-2009, 01:50 AM

/SIGH, easy mode tanking!!!!! I really wish this was the case, when not on my berserker, I play a warlock, and my zerk can come....almost within half of my warlocks DPS if I'm trying, really trying, on both accounts, if I really push on my warlock, which always means death, I push almost 10K average, but I dont do this because repait kits get expensive even if you make them yourself. Berserker, I am ALWAYS pushing as much DPS as I can possibly put out while cycling taunts, so I can hold aggro against a warlock or any other DPS that knows how to really put out. In a stacked group, Coercer, Dirge, Illy, assassin, Inquis, I still lose aggro to the coercer because of how much DPS they put out when they know how to play!!!! And yet, this is really an incredibly well stacked group to maximize on everything that a berserker can do. Anyone to say that tanking is easy mode on live does not know what its like to be a tank. From both sides of the coin, tank and uber DPS, warlock-dies alot, Zerk-usually holds aggro but heavy DPS rips regardless; in the end, tanking is far from easy mode and no matter how good you are, it is ultimately up to the DPS on whether or not your going to tank or just be a "figurehead" tank.And in the event theres a mythical assassin in your group....well, hope to god they feel like letting you tank, because its the only way you'll ever hold aggro; if they let you!!! Same with a warlock and most competent wizards/rogues/summoners, or any competent DPS class that can really maximize their damage output.And as for dirges-the kind of DPS they can put out now is stupid ridiculous, they are the EPITOME of a utility, as with a troubadour, and them being able to out DPS many other DPS classes is..well..just stupid.

LygerT

03-04-2009, 04:38 PM

there once was a time when guards and pallies did [Removed for Content] poor dps to be the defensive tanks, now all tanks do about the same dps but some have more survivability and some have more AE tools so instead of balancing the AAs we now have meshed classes pretty much close to all the same, in their infinite wisdom this somehow was a good idea without balancing encounters so offtanks aren't the continued redheaded stepchild except for a few fights. the other part is by having allowed tanks to all be in the grey area in similar dps then they have chosen to balance them out in 2 classes which is AE and single target. there will be no balance going forward unless somehow magically there is a difference put back into the game somewhere to give classes desirability, like physical resistance to an encounter(zerk) or magic resistance to an encounter(SK) for example.i much preferred it back in the day when you chose offensive vs defensive but those days are gone and no matter how much i warned of it you now basically have 4 flavors of the same thing with slight differences and still no balance in the 2 areas.about the first time i saw a guard pass me on the parse was when i knew things were gone in a direction that probably would cause something like we are seeing now. i still foresee issues with zerks being forced to tank defensively because of our hit ratios and low proccing hate, but what do i know.... nothing's changed and i doubt it will.most of the TSO tools are crap with perhaps the exception of enhance juggernaut(who needs it after the change in GU51 though, you won't be offensive or DPSing) and the 2 hit stoneskin, the rest is barely noticable and the resistance on the snaps will still be poor.

Obadiah

03-04-2009, 05:52 PM

I'm quite content with everything that's on Live at the moment. Every class has some weaknesses and sterngths. But it's a bait and switch. They get us into this expansion based on some decent improvements, and then take it all away.Even this update as a whole I was OK with; I was even looking FORWARD to the idea of generating 10% less hate in OT situations as I could increase my DPS output. Heck, I died 4 times last night to VP trash because of hate issues since we have to DW to DPS post RoK (and since we lost our Mystic). So yeah, I was OK with that. And with the idea of tanking in Defensive Stance. I'm OK with pretty much everything about the paradigm shift, especially with the tweaks they've made here and there.What I'm not OK with is:*Warrior overall DPS should suffer more than the other 2 Classes (Brawlers only have -0.4 modifier, Crusaders have a much higher % from other sources than autoattack)*Berserkers have nowhere near the TPS abilities available to every other tank. One valid (IMO) complaint on Live is that so-called AE tanks can generate as much ST hate as ST tanks. So to combat this, on Test, so-called ST tanks can now generate MORE AE hate than AE tanks.Still ... that's OK. Cause it's on Test right? And they listen to feedback from Testers and make changes right?*All of this was called to their attention in January and the development response was to further reduce BOTH the taunts and DPS of Berserkers.

Lethe5683

03-04-2009, 08:09 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>there are only so many classes that are challenging to play AND that actually appeal to me.</blockquote>There are challenging classes? This game is so easy the most challenging thing is dealing with annoying people in game.

Obadiah

03-05-2009, 01:45 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>there are only so many classes that are challenging to play AND that actually appeal to me.</blockquote>There are challenging classes? This game is so easy the most challenging thing is dealing with annoying people in game.</blockquote>Well, if any Fighter is going to be challenging now, you're looking at it. My crappy Monk can generate the same ST hate my Mythical, fully Mastered Berserker can by using only her ST taunt and autoattack. Anyone who remains a Berserker has to squeeze blood from stone to hold a mob.

LygerT

03-05-2009, 06:32 AM

Obadiah

03-10-2009, 01:28 AM

So it sounds like The End of the World is delayed for a looooong time.I suddenly feel cautiously optimistic.

Bremer

03-10-2009, 08:00 AM

There is no mention of the hate changes in Froechs post about GU51. So either it won't be part of GU51 and there are contrary to common believe still sane people at SOE. Or they think if they patch it in without mentioning noone notices it.

Slayer505

03-10-2009, 10:45 AM

Hopefully someone comes to their senses and they actually listen to the players for a change. I've been a Berserker since the day this game went live and it's the only class I intend to play as my main. I've been my guild's MT since EoF including all of RoK when Guardians had a clear advantage. The proposed changes would completely neuter our class. I've been pretty vocal about it in my guild and some people have asked me why I'm so upset about the changes. My response is, if I wanted to play a Guardian I would've rolled one way back in November of '04. I have no desire to play a Guardian with fewer survival tools and a little more AE aggro. That's essentially what these changes would turn us into and that's just not a class I'm interested in playing.

Obadiah

03-10-2009, 10:49 AM

Yeah, I was perhaps overreacting and basing my optimism on other comments than his.It's interesting that he says 51 will be delayed and lists the features in it without mentioning the Fighter changes.So some assume it will include said changes, some assume it will not.

Elanjar

03-10-2009, 12:20 PM

<cite>Karsgaar@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hopefully someone comes to their senses and they actually listen to the players for a change. I've been a Berserker since the day this game went live and it's the only class I intend to play as my main. I've been my guild's MT since EoF including all of RoK when Guardians had a clear advantage. The proposed changes would completely neuter our class. I've been pretty vocal about it in my guild and some people have asked me why I'm so upset about the changes. My response is, if I wanted to play a Guardian I would've rolled one way back in November of '04. I have no desire to play a Guardian with fewer survival tools and a little more AE aggro. That's essentially what these changes would turn us into and that's just not a class I'm interested in playing.</blockquote>agreed. same here on a shorter time frame.

LygerT

03-10-2009, 03:39 PM

they won't abandon the fighter revamp, it's been in the works for 5 months now and the fact that they are still working on it tells me they have a death grip on it to make it work somehow even though the changes can be quite simple if they actually just opened their ears instead of looking at their code with bloodshot eyes and plugs in their ears:<ul><li>get rid of the 5 second stance recast</li><li>get rid of the auto attack damage penalty modifier</li><li>stop ****ing nerfing AE classes AE hate! </li><li>give us the AE hate we were putting out a few updates ago and let the guards keep the amount they got</li><li>yes, SKs still need to be hit with the nerf bat. that or the other tanks need more which is unreasonable and adds the possibility of unbalancing things again</li><li>get rid of the offensive stance detaunting, maybe i liked the idea at first but now i see it was a huge mistake. tanks should still have choices to tank in offensive or defensive whether they choose to or not. defensive tanking was much more difficult to do than offensive was, which is what caused tanks to be so DPS oriented and started all of this in the first place. make defensive tanking appealing again and you might see more tanks using it and less dps classes moan about the tank doing more dps than them due to buffs. if the tank can hold aggro in defensive, the healer won't need time compression, the tank won't need IA, yadda yadda, all the buffs can be spread around more.</li></ul>those are about as basic of points as you can get, sadly after 5 months no one could ever see that because they have continued to be blinded by the amount of effort they have put into this fighter revamp.i guarantee no tank would dislike the fighter revamp if they simply made defensive tanking just more of a viability and actually produce the aggro that it does on test right now, just bump offensive hate to what it is on live right now so you basically merge live and test with the best of both worlds. offensive tanking will still be achievable but not very desirable due to the now loss of hate transfers.it's just too bad such a simple fix will be overlooked and some overthoughtout complexified system put in place that ensures that next expansion will be that much harder to balance out...

Obadiah

03-10-2009, 04:02 PM

Well, they DID get rid of the 5 second recast. It's a minute now. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />Regardless of what else changes they need to increase the taunt amounts on every single one of our taunt abilities by no less than 20%. That would put us at 75% of a Guardian, almost 90% of an SK, and of course still the most often resisted of everyone. A disadvantage, but not one that's just disgusting and insurmountable.I'd find it a lot more palatable if they would un-nerf the blues. That was a moronic, wholly unnecessary, "kick a guy while he's down" change after what had come before it. It doesn't hurts us so bad from a damage/threat perspective, which makes it that much more ridiculous. It was careless, random, and just downright rude.Palatable doesn't necessarily mean fun though. That's still TBD.

LygerT

03-10-2009, 04:28 PM

i heard about the buffs lasting through death and i forgot about that.. honestly the latest changes have just been so sloppy and random that is why i am speaking up now. i spent over 3 years a zerker so it's hard to just watch it go down in flames.soon you will see a bot available on station cash to allow the computer to play your tank for you.the basis of single abilities like insolence being what our aggro is based around is careless, nerfing the rest into the dirt is a slap in the face and all while other classes that originally weren't supposed to be AE classes now are gaining in AE hate. this is just a mess. i told them how it would be by mixing all the zones with AE mobs but they didn't want the segregation so now we are further making one tank class except with no balance to it. basically at character creation you may as well have choices like "tank 1, the best", "tank 2, he's ok, not as good as tank 1", "tank 3, he kinda sucks and doesn't really do much of use" and "tank 4, he pretty much sucks at life" etc. because all tanks will basically have the same skills but there will always be a distinguishable difference to which is the best at everything and which is the worst at everything, fortunately for us i think that place is still held for leather tanks which at least still do better DPS than we do.

Elanjar

03-10-2009, 04:37 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>they won't abandon the fighter revamp, it's been in the works for 5 months now and the fact that they are still working on it tells me they have a death grip on it to make it work somehow even though the changes can be quite simple if they actually just opened their ears instead of looking at their code with bloodshot eyes and plugs in their ears:<ul><li>get rid of the 5 second stance recast they unlinked them but each one has a 60s recast</li><li>get rid of the auto attack damage penalty modifier they need to get rid of the -skills more</li><li>stop ****ing nerfing AE classes AE hate! </li><li>give us the AE hate we were putting out a few updates ago and let the guards keep the amount they got</li><li>yes, SKs still need to be hit with the nerf bat. that or the other tanks need more which is unreasonable and adds the possibility of unbalancing things again agreed</li><li>get rid of the offensive stance detaunting, maybe i liked the idea at first but now i see it was a huge mistake. tanks should still have choices to tank in offensive or defensive whether they choose to or not. defensive tanking was much more difficult to do than offensive was, which is what caused tanks to be so DPS oriented and started all of this in the first place. make defensive tanking appealing again and you might see more tanks using it and less dps classes moan about the tank doing more dps than them due to buffs. if the tank can hold aggro in defensive, the healer won't need time compression, the tank won't need IA, yadda yadda, all the buffs can be spread around more. they just made it so taunt values in o-stance are zero. still -10% hate gain though</li></ul></blockquote><ol><li>stances need to remain unlinked but with more reasonable recasts (i say 20-30s)</li><li>taunts need to work in offensive but at 25% of their normal value and -hate gain should be 5%</li><li>-skills penalty in defensive needs to be removed</li><li>undo all CA damage nerfs PERIOD</li></ol>For berserkers specifically<ul><li>increase agression values in d-stance</li><li>increase all taunt values to be more in line with tps of other classes</li><li>increase our "agressive defense" proc to at least 50% like other classes reactive taunts</li><li>increase out o-stance dmg proc dps output (either increase the damage or increase the proc rate)</li></ul>If they were just to make agro a possibility in defensive stance then people would use it right now. They only use offensive stance because agro is impossible in defensive. As I've said since day one of these changes potential agro should be equal in both stances for all tank classes. Therefore a tank in o-stance doing max dps, but not using his taunts will never be able to surpass the agro of another tank in d-stance reaching his max agro potential through dps/taunts. And if the content is trivial enough (on a group by group basis) that a tank can survive in o-stance then why shouldnt he be aloud to go offensive and contribute to taking the mob down. THERE IS NO REASON