Without a need for classes working together towards aggro some minor roster changes may be needed.

[Lord Hackenslash]

<p>So I am really pleased that the LU 51 tanking changes are getting some more thought.</p><p>I was looking a bit at how the classes no longer needing to work together might affect raid builds and I came up with the following raid build.</p><p>Group 1GuardianTemplarDefilerDirgeAssasinAssasin</p><p>Group 2Plate Tank (any of the 4)InquisitorMysticDirgeIllusionistAssasin</p><p>Group 3InquisitorDirgeIllusionistAssasinAssasinAssasin</p><p>Group 4InquisitorDirgeIllusionistAssasinAssasinAssasin</p><p>Without any need for supporting aggro transfer classes this should be viable and increase the raid's overall DPS.</p><p>we can finally ditch those pesky Aggro classes. Who needs Swashbucklers, Troubadors, Coercers?</p><p>Wizards and warlocks might have to go since we don't need troubadors. might as well send the summoners with them.</p><p>I like rangers but ah well they arent quite where the assasins are so i might want to rethink that. I'll put a link to the qeynos to freeport betrayal on the raid sign up sheet.</p><p>Brawlers... hmm almost forgot them maybe one of the assassins has an alt they can bring for the sisters.</p><p>Druids would be nice for ports but since the defensive stance became the only way to tank there hasn't been so much spiking. we'll manage.</p><p>-------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>Ok this was intended to be a bit humerous but I think it points out a few of the reasons changing the game so drastically to remove class interaction might worry some people. This is the future some people see. Its kinda like early EQ1 where the raid build could be  1 tank, 1 shaman for debuffs, however many clerics it took to keep the 1 tank up. and all the wizards you could find.</p>

[Motzi]

<p>Works for me.  Maybe a brigand or two as long as they behave.</p>

[Katanalla]

<p>Sad but true.</p><p>May want to throw in 1 swash and 1 brig though for debuffs, make 1 of the last 2 groups coercer - swash - brig - ranger instead.</p><p>Group 1 change 1 assassin out for coercer as well.</p>

[Rayche]

<p>You know, that really does look like a pretty sweet raid setup <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I bet there's little you couldn't take down with that.</p><p>But with 4 melee in group 1 you might do better with a Mystic over a Defiler.</p>

[Dasein]

<p>That doesn't look too bad, although I'd probably put a coercer in the MT group for coercive healing, and abrigand in one of the melee groups for the extra debuffs.</p>

[Rayche]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That doesn't look too bad, although I'd probably put a coercer in the MT group for coercive healing, and abrigand in one of the melee groups for the extra debuffs.</p></blockquote><p>What's a brigand? I haven't seen one of those in forever.</p>

[Windowlicker]

<p>Ironic the OP is playing a SK.</p>

[Noaani]

<p>Group 1GuardianTemplarDefilerDirgeSwashbuckler Warden</p><p>Group 2Plate TankInquisitorMysticDirgeIllusionistSwashbuckler</p><p>Group 3InquisitorDirgeIllusionistAssasinBrigand Fighter</p><p>Group 4InquisitorTroubadorIllusionistWizardWizardWarlock</p><p>The OPs raid setup is fine for trash encounters, but will fall apart against any encounter past Xebnok. it is also lacking any rouges for TS, which will hurt on a lot of encounters.</p><p>The above raid (assuming equal gear, skill and all) will have higher DPS in a zonewide capacity, and has no need to bring in any extras for specific fights if the raid is geared well enough for those fights (ie, Tythus will not be an issue with enough crit mit).</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Group 1GuardianTemplarDefilerDirgeSwashbuckler Warden</p><p>Group 2Plate TankInquisitorMysticDirgeIllusionistSwashbuckler</p><p>Group 3InquisitorDirgeIllusionistAssasinBrigand Fighter</p><p>Group 4InquisitorTroubadorIllusionistWizardWizardWarlock</p><p>The OPs raid setup is fine for trash encounters, but will fall apart against any encounter past Xebnok. it is also lacking any rouges for TS, which will hurt on a lot of encounters.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure why you would bring more than one Swashy, especially since you've got a Brig as well. You'd be better off replacing one of those Swashies with an Assassin for more DPS.</p><p>Note that the OP's setup was more sarcastic than anything else -- but seriously, the fact that it WOULD be viable for any named up to Xebnok ought to raise some eyebrows & some questions.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Group 1GuardianTemplarDefilerDirgeSwashbuckler Warden</p><p>Group 2Plate TankInquisitorMysticDirgeIllusionistSwashbuckler</p><p>Group 3InquisitorDirgeIllusionistAssasinBrigand Fighter</p><p>Group 4InquisitorTroubadorIllusionistWizardWizardWarlock</p><p>The OPs raid setup is fine for trash encounters, but will fall apart against any encounter past Xebnok. it is also lacking any rouges for TS, which will hurt on a lot of encounters.</p><p>The above raid (assuming equal gear, skill and all) will have higher DPS in a zonewide capacity, and has no need to bring in any extras for specific fights if the raid is geared well enough for those fights (ie, Tythus will not be an issue with enough crit mit).</p></blockquote><p>Even your raid setup shows a pretty substantial lack of diversity, and really seems more focused on optimial DPS builds. Also, I wouldn't consider TS to be that important, as the devs seem intent on eliminating situations hwere it can be used to any effect.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>The fact that that set up could be used up through ANY mob beat so far is what is scary.  Xebnok only need 2 tanks, although 3 does help.  Gynok only needs 2 tanks.  Tythus only needs 2 tanks, hell Zarrakon only really needs 2 tanks.  But good thing we are limiting fighter capabilities.</p>

[Katanalla]

<p>OMG! I got the best raid set up EVA!</p><p>Group1: guard - defiler - templar - coercer - dirge - illusionist (TC = win!)</p><p>Group 2: inquisitor - coercer - dirge - swashbuckler - swashbuckler - brigand</p><p>Group 3: berserker - mystic - templar - coercer - dirge - conjuror for mitigation buff! (lol KoS anyone)</p><p>Group 4: mystic (roa / mythical effect ftw) - warlock - warlock - troubador - illusionist - assassin (duck assassin you get the mage group and I A goin on troub!!! RAWR jk ia for you + haste )</p>

[Scaler]

<p><cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You know, that really does look like a pretty sweet raid setup <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I bet there's little you couldn't take down with that.</p><p>But with 4 melee in group 1 you might do better with a Mystic over a Defiler.</p></blockquote><p>There is only 3 melee in the MT group, a tank isnt melee anymore... Taunt monkey.</p>

[OutcastBlade]

<p>I know you're trying to prove a point about the upcoming changes, but that raid would fail.</p><p>No debuffs. No fast AE blocking. You wipe you have to wait 10 mins for blockers to come back up.</p><p>Assassins don't parse as high without the other classes to debuff the mobs. Good luck on Xebnok too without swashy and troub debuffs. Dude hits like a truck and we make em bareable, that and the troub reduces the duration of the charm if specced right.</p><p>Otherwise yes thats the general idea of whats going to happen with these new changes. These changes are extremely drastic and thats why they are postponed, because they didn't think things through fully.</p><p>They say that tanks need to be able to manage their own aggro, but then they give swashies their new swarthy disorder which gives the tank three triggers of hate. Contradictory imho.</p>

[Rothgar]

<p><cite>Kanolth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They say that tanks need to be able to manage their own aggro, but then they give swashies their new swarthy disorder which gives the tank three triggers of hate. Contradictory imho.</p></blockquote><p>Your logic doesn't hold up.  Healers also need to be able to heal groups on their own, but does that mean we should take heal buffs off the other classes?  Just because a class needs to be able to stand on their own doesn't mean other classes still can't provide additional benefits.</p>

[OutcastBlade]

<p>I was being fecetious Rothgar. But I guess that doesn't translate well across this kind of communications medium.</p><p>I think the proposed changes to the tanks is a great start. But a little more time needs to be spent on figuring out what to do with the other classes instead of given them cheap substitute abilities. My class for example, has been demonstrated as an after thought in the greater scheme of things with that crappy swarthy disorder skill.</p><p>Swashbucklers as <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>AE classes</strong></em></span> would have benefitted greatly with an AE detaunt that had a chance to proc along with hurricane. Upgrading our avoid proc to make it an AE avoid would have been a suitable and not too overpowering ability. It's not fool proof, but it means that our AE <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>PROC</strong></span> doesn't get us killed when adds are pulled into the raid. When adds come in I never AE in purpose, but I have hurricane on if there are more than two adds currently engaged with our tank, because its a swashy skill that helps burn the adds down faster. Don't forget Rothgar, we transferred a large portion of our AE hate to the tank and with a paladin with amends we could escape most of the AE hate we generated.</p><p>I agree that was way too powerful. But we went from having that to having it completely taken away... We got nothing now. Which means when adds come in now, all I have at my disposal to not wipe to them is a single target hate trigger on the tank. In other words I have nothing to manage my OWN hate in that kind of situation. I cannot even use swarthy disorder on myself for three triggers of dehate. I have to rely on a tank that isn't pigeon holed into single target encounter tanking to take that off of me which most times is not gonna happen.</p><p>See my problem? I am happy for you Rothgar that you think you will have an easier time tanking Ravenscale with your guardian and your undesirable group setup. But the rest of us got shafted for it and I am glad that these changes got postponed. They got postponed because it was realized that they suck absolute aa.... bumm....</p>

[Xierce]

<p>I feel like the proposed changes will be great all around as long as the threat levels have been boosted properly. I welcome the idea of not having to have the same classes to manage hate in every scenario. I think that you could probably zerg a raid instance just fine with a raid full of assassins but there's not much fun in that and of course there's no strategy required. The tank changes are a great step in the right direction. Though I've gotten used to holding agro with dps I think as a tank it would be much more beneficial to me to focus on survivability and threat. </p>

[canabal1]

<p>9 assasins? What about ranger love.  Oh yeah the pred SoE dev plays an assasin so the ranger gets no love.  "don't betray...just don't play"</p>

[Raidyen]

<p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kanolth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They say that tanks need to be able to manage their own aggro, but then they give swashies their new swarthy disorder which gives the tank three triggers of hate. Contradictory imho.</p></blockquote><p>Your logic doesn't hold up.  Healers also need to be able to heal groups on their own, but does that mean we should take heal buffs off the other classes?  Just because a class needs to be able to stand on their own doesn't mean other classes still can't provide additional benefits.</p></blockquote><p>So the logic is lets take away a class defining skill from a class, give them a really lame ability they will all just macro on the tank, making it just a really weak version of what we already had.  Thats just a nerf, and its not even a good nerf.  So MANY other great ideas that would still remove the hate transfer, but give swashies a bit of flavor, without making them OP.  All being completely ignored.</p><p>  Oh and since we are on the subject of logic, how logical is it for a dev to give the swash community something they have been asking for, (aoe mythical proc), then 1 or 2 swashies out of 1000's complain, and he changes it to a junk proc.  Is that the kind of logic we are talking about?</p><p>I am not intending to sound mean here, but if we are going to be giving the paladins some upgrades in order to blunt the impact of loosing amends, why then are swashbucklers not given that same consideration, since our primary reason of being on a raid IS the hate transfer.</p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Group 1GuardianTemplarDefilerDirgeSwashbuckler Warden</p><p>Group 2Plate TankInquisitorMysticDirgeIllusionistSwashbuckler</p><p>Group 3InquisitorDirgeIllusionistAssasinBrigand Fighter</p><p>Group 4InquisitorTroubadorIllusionistWizardWizardWarlock</p><p>The OPs raid setup is fine for trash encounters, but will fall apart against any encounter past Xebnok. it is also lacking any rouges for TS, which will hurt on a lot of encounters.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure why you would bring more than one Swashy, especially since you've got a Brig as well. You'd be better off replacing one of those Swashies with an Assassin for more DPS.</p><p>Note that the OP's setup was more sarcastic than anything else -- but seriously, the fact that it WOULD be viable for any named up to Xebnok ought to raise some eyebrows & some questions.</p></blockquote><p>/shrug, I copy/pasted the OP and spent 8 seconds replacing some classes, didn't eaxctly put any thought into it, and it is not a perfect raid setup by any means.</p><p>That said, having two swashbucklers will not hinder a raid. It may not be optimal, but it is definatly workable. An annoying thing with TSO raids anyway is that an optimal raid setup for one encounter may look absolutly nothing like the optimal raid setup for the next.</p>

[Lord Hackenslash]

<p>So, the reason i posted this is I am worried that removing much of the utility from classes like swashbuckler and trubador might make them second string classes when raids are considered. Currently Brawlers, Summoners, and rangers (and more classes i am forgettign at the moment) have difficulty getting into raids due to their class mechanics . I understand that its hard for groups to find good combinations for the zones as designed in TSO and that putting more aggro tools in the hands of the tank might solve some of that but it breaks the raid environment. Many of the complaints that are coming in are specific to raiding where the copperative buffs of the classes combine to allow players to exceed anything they can achieve in a group of 6. </p><p>I am trying to ensure balance and would love to see all 24 classes in a raid someday. this will probbably not happen unfortunately but we need to consider maintaining as much diversity in raid builds so that people are not punished upon reaching the end of the game for a decision they made a year ago in the character select screen. I speak from personal experience when pre TSO Shadowknights couldnt get a raid spot and most of those who ended up in raid guilds had to betray. It sucked and I dont think any other class should have to deal with class > player skill.</p><p>anyhow hope that helps.</p>

[Morrias]

<p><cite>canabal1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>9 assasins? What about ranger love.  Oh yeah the pred SoE dev plays an assasin so the ranger gets no love.  "don't betray...just don't play"</p></blockquote><p>Assassins seem to be the only scout not getting continually nerfed (directly or indirectly).</p>

[Danelin]

<p><cite>Ukae@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Assassins seem to be the only scout not getting continually nerfed (directly or indirectly).</p></blockquote><p>That is because Aeralik plays one on live. When was the last time you saw a non-Assassin T1 dps parsing even remotely close in similar gear/aa? Not since Aeralik decided casters had it too easy and nerfed them down so far they would never parse again. Hell, the Mythicaled Wizard in my guild I group with sometimes rarely outparsed the fabled assassin we were both running with in early TSO, and the Wizard had about 50 more AA.</p>

[Eugam]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So I am really pleased that the LU 51 tanking changes are getting some more thought.</p><p>I was looking a bit at how the classes no longer needing to work together might affect raid builds and I came up with the following raid build.</p><p>Group 1GuardianTemplarDefilerDirgeAssasinAssasin</p><p>Group 2Plate Tank (any of the 4)InquisitorMysticDirgeIllusionistAssasin</p><p>Group 3InquisitorDirgeIllusionistAssasinAssasinAssasin</p><p>Group 4InquisitorDirgeIllusionistAssasinAssasinAssasin</p><p>Without any need for supporting aggro transfer classes this should be viable and increase the raid's overall DPS.</p><p>we can finally ditch those pesky Aggro classes. Who needs Swashbucklers, Troubadors, Coercers?</p><p>Wizards and warlocks might have to go since we don't need troubadors. might as well send the summoners with them.</p><p>I like rangers but ah well they arent quite where the assasins are so i might want to rethink that. I'll put a link to the qeynos to freeport betrayal on the raid sign up sheet.</p><p>Brawlers... hmm almost forgot them maybe one of the assassins has an alt they can bring for the sisters.</p><p>Druids would be nice for ports but since the defensive stance became the only way to tank there hasn't been so much spiking. we'll manage.</p><p>-------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>Ok this was intended to be<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> a bit humerous </span>but I think it points out a few of the reasons changing the game so drastically to remove class interaction might worry some people. This is the future some people see. Its kinda like early EQ1 where the raid build could be 1 tank, 1 shaman for debuffs, however many clerics it took to keep the 1 tank up. and all the wizards you could find.</p></blockquote><p>Heh...</p><p>i would remove one assassin from G1 and put another Illu in. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>BUT.. i have doubts the Guardian is able to hold aggro in this raid. Another funny thing is that assassins all go though a similar rotation. That would create some interessting spikes <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Probably the assassins should talk to each other and rotate asynchronnous <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Druids... wardens are not dead <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Once i finished T2 i ll gather shards for the melee set. It procs heals. I am curious how he performs as melee dps with lots of heal procs and a few fast casted group heals <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> With random legendary armor and jewels i am able to double dps. With full melee spec and items i could prolly parse sone nice numbers while still having HoT's up..</p>

[Rayche]

<p>Robe wearers and Troubys definitely need a lot of lovin. I could see a perfectly successful raid force with scout DPS and Dirges. I don't see a need (Outside chanters) for any other robe wearing casters.</p><p>That's the biggest problem is see in this thread. Interesting that nobody's brought that up. That and the lack of a Fury in anybodys build.</p>

[Motzi]

<p><cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Robe wearers and Troubys definitely need a lot of lovin. I could see a perfectly successful raid force with scout DPS and Dirges. I don't see a need (Outside chanters) for any other robe wearing casters.</p><p>That's the biggest problem is see in this thread. Interesting that nobody's brought that up. That and the lack of a Fury in anybodys build.</p></blockquote><p>I think the point of the thread was partly how melee heavy things can get and remain viable, maybe in some cases even better.  When the interdepencies perhaps lessen the role of current classes we bring, it provides opportunity to perhaps replace some of them with more t1 dps.</p><p>As far as fury, we quit bringing them on raids a long time ago.  They neither heal better than other healers nor dps buff as well as other healers.  I've suggested on other threads that making the feral buff a group buff and adding some sort of meaningful casting buff to the fury might help bring interest to bringing them on raid again.   But for now, we'll all prefer a mystic on inq in the slot a fury might have once filled.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Robe wearers and Troubys definitely need a lot of lovin. I could see a perfectly successful raid force with scout DPS and Dirges. I don't see a need (Outside chanters) for any other robe wearing casters.</p><p>That's the biggest problem is see in this thread. Interesting that nobody's brought that up. That and the lack of a Fury in anybodys build.</p></blockquote><p>Seriously, this is a joke.  Troubadors and mage groups are not going to go away.  Outside of the MT group you could say that there is no reason to bring any other scout along (dirge for MT) besides troubs either.  You could have MT group + 3 mage/hybrid groups for the rest of the raid and do the same thing scout heavy raids could.</p>

[Allie]

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>we can finally ditch those pesky Aggro classes. Who needs Swashbucklers, Troubadors, Coercers?</p><p>Wizards and warlocks might have to go since we don't need troubadors. might as well send the summoners with them.</p></blockquote><p>Summoners have been sent away long time ago, no changes necessary for this to happen. Most useless class in game now and [Removed for Content] annoying. And I will rub it in until we get a statement what Sony things to do about it and when.</p>

[007djdeadly]

<p>W/o a coercer in the MT group, I feel sorry for your tanks.  You do realize that coercers are the only class that keep their (albeit reduced) hate xfer/gain buff?</p><p>And yes, summoners are broke.  That's why I retired my necro and rolled a coercer.  </p>

[Kordran]

<p>The classes that no raid force really needs:</p><p>BerserkerBruiserConjurorFuryNecromancerPaladin</p><p>That's a full quarter of the classes in the game.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>One thing I will say...since we added a bruiser to our mix, I've noticed I hit the mobs a *lot* more often.  Their raidwide is pretty sweet overall.</p>

[Hirofortis]

<p>I agree that the brusier is pretty left otu atm, although a brawler of one sort or another is always desirable in a raid. Just not both.</p><p>Conjy and Necros are sadly a weak link.  I changed off of my conjy due to the no use in raids.  And it has not changed in 3 years.</p><p>I disagree with you on the fury.  A well played fury is an awesome addition to a raid and well worth considering.</p><p>A paladin or a zerker I disagree on as well as you can run one or the other very efficiently.  Sadly you cannot put one of every single class in a raid. Just won't happen.  With that being said, don't rely on what some say is the perfect set up.  Some classes are prefered, this is true, but you can do a lot if you really know how to set things up.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Our raidforce runs with just about everything except a Guardian, though who's coming varies depending on the night and the content so its not likely that we actually have 23 classes on a regular basis.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree that the brusier is pretty left otu atm, although a brawler of one sort or another is always desirable in a raid. Just not both.</p><p>Conjy and Necros are sadly a weak link.  I changed off of my conjy due to the no use in raids.  And it has not changed in 3 years.</p><p>I disagree with you on the fury.  A well played fury is an awesome addition to a raid and well worth considering.</p><p>A paladin or a zerker I disagree on as well as you can run one or the other very efficiently.  Sadly you cannot put one of every single class in a raid. Just won't happen.  With that being said, don't rely on what some say is the perfect set up.  Some classes are prefered, this is true, but you can do a lot if you really know how to set things up.</p></blockquote><p> I guess it would be better to say that there's classes which aren't optimal in most raidforce groups. Player skill is a factor, but all other things being equal, it would be better to bring along a Shadowknight than a Berserker, for example. Wardens tend to be preferred over Furies when it comes to Druids, and Monks tend to be preferred over Bruisers. After the fighter revamp, Paladins have been re-designated as single-target tanks like Guardians, so that affects them as well.</p><p>That said, of all the classes, the ones that are hurting the most are Summoners; it's like they've been relegated to permanent solo status. Most folks don't even want to bring them along in groups, although I have run into some very good ones who can put out the damage ... but most folks don't even bother, they'll opt for a bard or chanter instead.</p>

[Scaler]

<p>When fighters are doing less dps then healers, will the fighter specific mobs in the byzola encounter have less hp?</p>

[Eugam]

<p>No raiding in 2010</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Scaler wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When fighters are doing less dps then healers, will the fighter specific mobs in the byzola encounter have less hp?</p></blockquote><p>More importantly, when fighters are doing less DPS than healers, when are we going to see the enchanters and bards below them on that parse?</p>

[Allie]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Scaler wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When fighters are doing less dps then healers, will the fighter specific mobs in the byzola encounter have less hp?</p></blockquote><p>More importantly, when fighters are doing less DPS than healers, when are we going to see the enchanters and bards below them on that parse?</p></blockquote><p>LoL, everyone wanna be a DPS class now, itemaziation is totally s hit...everyone wants the same items, dps dps dps</p><p>This game is getting really retar ded.</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>Allie@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LoL, everyone wanna be a DPS class now</p></blockquote><p>DPS parses get posted all the time; heal parses, not so much. In fact, I can't remember the last time I even saw a healing parse, raiding or otherwise. But DPS parses are something you see practically every day, even in heroic content where it's mostly (or even wholly) an [Removed for Content] exercise.</p><p>I'm unaware of any other aspect of this game being parsed & the results posted so often, & since seeing one's name "on the parse" is often more a matter of self-gratification & validation than anything else, more people go for the classes that get that notice.</p><p>It's just one more reason I pretty much loathe parsers & refuse to use them.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Allie@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Scaler wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When fighters are doing less dps then healers, will the fighter specific mobs in the byzola encounter have less hp?</p></blockquote><p>More importantly, when fighters are doing less DPS than healers, when are we going to see the enchanters and bards below them on that parse?</p></blockquote><p>LoL, everyone wanna be a DPS class now, itemaziation is totally s hit...everyone wants the same items, dps dps dps</p><p>This game is getting really retar ded.</p></blockquote><p>That's because DPS wins fights. Everything else just helps the DPS win fights.</p>

[thog_zork]

<p><cite>Arandar@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The classes that no raid force really needs:</p><p>BerserkerBruiserConjurorFuryNecromancerPaladin</p><p>That's a full quarter of the classes in the game.</p></blockquote><p>this shows how the whole archetype "SUMMONER" is broken for grouping/raiding!</p><p>at least every other archetype has an useful class !</p>

[thog_zork]

<p><cite>Arandar@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That said, of all the classes, the ones that are hurting the most are Summoners; it's like they've been relegated to permanent solo status. Most folks don't even want to bring them along in groups, although I have run into some very good ones who can put out the damage ... but most folks don't even bother, they'll opt for a bard or chanter instead.</p></blockquote><p>good point !</p>

[Motzi]

<p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Allie@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LoL, everyone wanna be a DPS class now</p></blockquote><p>DPS parses get posted all the time; heal parses, not so much. In fact, I can't remember the last time I even saw a healing parse, raiding or otherwise. But DPS parses are something you see practically every day, even in heroic content where it's mostly (or even wholly) an [Removed for Content] exercise.</p></blockquote><p>We parse heals to figure out who isn't doing their job when there is a problem.  It isn't something we need to look at when everything is working.  One problem with heal parses is it doesn't effectively reflect cures into the parse.  Given how important timely cures is vs total heal/s, heal parse isn't as valuable as a dps parse.</p><p>I promise you if I raid without pasting a dps parse at least every 3rd mob, I can watch dps output drop by 30% over just 20 mins of raiding.  They require a constant reminder of where they are in the pecking order to keep them playing at their best.  Would be nice if that wasn't the case, but it is.</p>

[Germs666]

<p>Aeraliks selfish attitude and SoE's refusal to even acknowledge the fact that Summoners need a (huge) damage increase or equal utility to chanters (since they can outparse us) is driving people away from the game. Wizards and warlocks are also realizing that chanters can DPS close to them and offer boatloads more utility.</p><p>We could all roll dark elf assassins and not have to worry about being useless but then Norrath would feel pretty bland.</p><p>I'd love to see some mention of a future fix for summoners by a developer. Or an official statement that the summoner class is not meant for grouping and should only be used for solo gameplay.</p>