Fighter Parity

[Dreco]

<p>Is this a tough question?  I see the Combat Mechanic answer other classes questions and comments i.e. Swashies and Plate tanks, but none for brawlers.</p><p>The brawlers have asked a valid question about the disparity of DA, MC, and AE auto attack and it hasn't been answered yet. Is it to hard/complicated to answer or is it you dont like brawlers. (sometimes I believe the latter)</p><p>You have classified my Bruiser as an AE tank, but I only have 3 AE's, one of which is an AA ability. I could use 3 or 4 more then to satisfy the AE tank persona.</p><p>I can live with the new tank update but please dont mess with the stance timers or buff merging(my Fury needs buff merging not my Bruiser). But since your apparently gonna keep that in, I would like equal DA/MC/AE auto-attack. If you won't give us that, then its time for the great fighter(brawler) walkout similar to warriors in EQ1. Have fun with your new and improved broken game.</p><p>If you consider yourself a Combat Mechanic I would ask that you create a character for every class l2p them and stop the obvious bias you have toward Assassins. I challenge you to level a (Guildless)Brawler to 80 and try and find a PUG(see how long you will wait to play and fight silly stereotypes of our class).</p><p>I feel you hate my class, you took Eagle Spin from me. Did we mess up your CA rotation? That was a very useful solo tool to help me survive a little bit longer.</p><p>P.S. Thanks to all the Brawlers out there that have fought for our class and helped me become a better Brawler myself. Shout out to Crabbok & Gungo/Couching & Siatfallen your posts have been very informative and I want to thank you.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Dreco@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can live with the new tank update but please dont mess with the stance timers or buff merging(my Fury needs buff merging not my Bruiser). But since your apparently gonna keep that in, I would like equal DA/MC/AE auto-attack. If you won't give us that, then <strong>its time for the great fighter(brawler) walkout similar to warriors in EQ1</strong>. Have fun with your new and improved broken game.</p></blockquote><p>A number of us are already discussing this, by no means just brawlers, all fighters in general.  I personally encourage more to do it.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>A number of us are already discussing this, by no means just brawlers, all fighters in general.  I personally encourage more to do it.</blockquote><p>While I imagine that there will be some fighters who resign their toons, the only thing that SOE is really going to "notice" is canceled subscriptions. If a lot of brawlers just stopped playing that toon and switched to another, would there be some hue and cry from the masses? Doubtful. In a raiding context, they're one-trick ponies used for specific fights (e.g.: the sisters in SoH) but they could be easily replaced by Swashbucklers or Brigands for general purpose use. It's one of those "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it..." type of situations.</p><p>Personally, I'll learn to adapt to the changes. I don't like all of them, but I'm not dumping my raiding Paladin. The same goes for our MT Guardian. We'll figure out what needs to be done as a raid force, and we'll do it. Screaming into the wind, tying to stage "walkouts" and all of this other stuff is just nonsense. SOE is going to do what they're going to do. Anyone who's played their games knows the deal. Suck it up, or move along.</p>

[Landiin]

<p>lol I beleave we tried this for LU13.. It went live. Maybe It'll work this time.. But I'm with Kordran on this..</p>

[Yimway]

<p>Groups spend a great deal of time looking for tanks now.  If even 20% of the fighters stopped logging that class in, you'll have loads of complaints.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p>People need to quit fooling themselves.  These changes are going live no matter how much we complain.  Protesting, subscription cancellatioon threats....or stupid attemps at "walk outs" will have no effect.  SOE has proven time and time again....thru all their games that once they decide on something....its a done deal.</p><p>The game is 5+ years old....the vast majority of the people left playing have multiple characters...many have them all at 80. </p><p>If playing the fighter becomes boring or trivial people just wont play those particular alts anymore.  SoE is not in any danger of actually losing significant amount of subscriptions over this.  Or at the very least if the changes make tanking = easymode people will just bot their tanks when guild groups need tanks.</p><p>You will still have your raid Guards show up for raids then play their alts the rest of the week.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Groups spend a great deal of time looking for tanks now.  If even 20% of the fighters stopped logging that class in, you'll have loads of complaints.</blockquote><p>It'll probably be a boon for lesser geared tanks out there; groups that were turning them away before will probably nuzzle up to them because their options are more limited. I'm sure the vaccuum will be filled as you have more mediocre tanks step in on their meteroic rise to the middle. Most of the the really good raiding tanks out there right now don't do PUGs anyway, they stick to running guild groups; rarely do they venture forth to tank for the "little people".</p>

[Aull]

<p>I suppose many might quit playing their brawlers for another type of fighter. In the world of eqII if all brawlers did actually quit it would not impact the game and break it like it would if all the plates stop. Brawlers are decent at most all of aspects they are involved in but do not excel or stand out in any particular area such as tanking and dps.</p>

[Couching]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Groups spend a great deal of time looking for tanks now.  If even 20% of the fighters stopped logging that class in, you'll have loads of complaints.</blockquote><p>It'll probably be a boon for lesser geared tanks out there; groups that were turning them away before will probably nuzzle up to them because their options are more limited. I'm sure the vaccuum will be filled as you have more mediocre tanks step in on their meteroic rise to the middle. <strong>Most of the the really good raiding tanks out there right now don't do PUGs anyway, </strong>they stick to running guild groups; rarely do they venture forth to tank for the "little people".</p></blockquote><p>Not really, it is just your personal assumption or it only happens in your guild.</p><p>I do a lot of PUG everyday and so do other tanks in the guild. </p><p>In pick up group in crushbone, you can always group with people from raiding guilds.</p>

[Couching]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>People need to quit fooling themselves.  These changes are going live no matter how much we complain.  Protesting, subscription cancellatioon threats....or stupid attemps at "walk outs" will have no effect.  SOE has proven time and time again....thru all their games that once they decide on something....its a done deal.</p><p>The game is 5+ years old....the vast majority of the people left playing have multiple characters...many have them all at 80. </p><p>If playing the fighter becomes boring or trivial people just wont play those particular alts anymore.  SoE is not in any danger of actually losing significant amount of subscriptions over this.  Or at the very least if the changes make tanking = easymode people will just bot their tanks when guild groups need tanks.</p><p>You will still have your raid Guards show up for raids then play their alts the rest of the week.</p></blockquote><p>Most people don't care if soe listen to our feedback or not. In fact, they don't even post here.</p><p>If this game is no more fun, people leave. That's it.</p><p>Soe should appreciate their customers who are willing to give feedbacks rather than ignore them.</p><p>Fine, it's just a game, not a big deal.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Most people don't care if soe listen to our feedback or not.<p>If this game is no more fun, people leave. That's it.</p><p>It's just a game, not a big deal.</p></blockquote><p>True enough, that's the bottom line.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I suppose many might quit playing their brawlers for another type of fighter. In the world of eqII if all brawlers did actually quit it would not impact the game and break it like it would if all the plates stop. Brawlers are decent at most all of aspects they are involved in but do not excel or stand out in any particular area such as tanking and dps.</p></blockquote><p>Its worse that that.  They could literally delete 5 of the 6 fighters....keeping any one of the 4 plates and the game would go on just fine.  Raids would quickly and easily adapt to whichever plate remained.  To me that screams of a serious failure with the fighter archetype.  Groups would in trouble....at least until all the newly rolled "Tank class" players leveled up.</p><p>Now look at the priests......It would be very hard for the game...especially raids to go on with only 1 of the priest types....You almost always need 1 of each type....or at a minimum 1 plate and 1 chain.</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I suppose many might quit playing their brawlers for another type of fighter. In the world of eqII if all brawlers did actually quit it would not impact the game and break it like it would if all the plates stop. Brawlers are decent at most all of aspects they are involved in but do not excel or stand out in any particular area such as tanking and dps.</p></blockquote><p>Its worse that that.  They could literally delete 5 of the 6 fighters....keeping any one of the 4 plates and the game would go on just fine.  Raids would quickly and easily adapt to whichever plate remained.  To me that screams of a serious failure with the fighter archetype.  Groups would in trouble....at least until all the newly rolled "Tank class" players leveled up.</p><p><span style="font-size: small; color: #00ff00;">Now look at the priests......It would be very hard for the game...especially raids to go on with only 1 of the priest types....You almost always need 1 of each type....or at a minimum 1 plate and 1 chain.</span></p></blockquote><p>Strong point there and is very true. I honestly feel that having six tanks is just to many for this game to try and balance out. Needing all tanks on a raid is mandatory.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>I'll be honest...I really don't understand why they put the new taunt AA in the int line instead of sta...str/wis/agi/int are all common choices for brawlers, but no one uses sta.</p>

[Matia]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I suppose many might quit playing their brawlers for another type of fighter. In the world of eqII if all brawlers did actually quit it would not impact the game and break it like it would if all the plates stop. Brawlers are decent at most all of aspects they are involved in but do not excel or stand out in any particular area such as tanking and dps.</p></blockquote><p>Its worse that that. They could literally delete 5 of the 6 fighters....keeping any one of the 4 plates and the game would go on just fine. Raids would quickly and easily adapt to whichever plate remained. To me that screams of a serious failure with the fighter archetype. Groups would in trouble....at least until all the newly rolled "Tank class" players leveled up.</p><p><span style="font-size: small; color: #00ff00;">Now look at the priests......It would be very hard for the game...especially raids to go on with only 1 of the priest types....You almost always need 1 of each type....or at a minimum 1 plate and 1 chain.</span></p></blockquote><p>Strong point there and is very true. I honestly feel that having six tanks is just to many for this game to try and balance out. Needing all tanks on a raid is mandatory.</p></blockquote><p>Six isn't too many if the people developing the game are willing to go beyond the old saw about there only being so many roles and to catch up with the concept that fighter does not equal tank.</p>

[Danelin]

<p>As long as people are willing to just roll over for changes, they will continue to push through.</p><p>If this goes live I will cancel my account, and my berserker is not my main. I don't think I will be the only one. Even if only 10-20% of the tank players switch toons, the lack of groups will cause people to get bored with the game, and the exodus will happen. The only way Sony could guarantee this would result in a huge hit to the game's success better would be to time it to go live alongside a new MMO that is well designed.</p>

[Gilasil]

<p>I didn't think the fighter revamp is all that horrible to brawlers.  It doesn't answer their fundamental issues but it doesn't really set them back either.  At least from what I saw when I copied my level 80 bruser to test.  Perhaps others who have AA points elsewhere might disagree but that's my observation.</p><p>When I copied my bruiser to test I was pretty happy with the result.  Yes the buffs were merged and yes there wasn't much point, but it looked like ALL the buffs (except manhandle) were merged into ALL the stances.  So I used only one concentration slot instead of three.  That's a big nothing of course but it didn't really hurt anything.  (I don't know why they thought that those buffs took too long when there's only a few and you could cast them on the run.  It was never a big deal to me.  I think he had fighters and healers confused. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>If the taunts in offensive will still detaunt I consider that a very good thing.  When I get rolling with chi and knockout combo I often have problems with ripping aggro from the main tank.  I would welcome deaggro tools.  I for one would never try to tank even moderatly tough group content in offensive stance so if I'm in offensive I'm in a strictly DPS mode even now so from my point of view it's good.  This just gives me more tools when in DPS mode to be a good DPSer.</p><p>Taunts are more effective in defensive mode which is a good thing.</p><p>The main where things might be hurt is the 5 seconds to change stances (more like 4.5 if you put points into the agility line) but that's only a problem if I want to switch stances in the middle of a fight.  Most likely if I thought that a possability I'd be using the middle stance.  If I did decide to move to defensive stance from offensive I'd first click off the offensive stance which makes the taunts add aggro, then switch on defensive as soon as I could; putting up one of the new AA self buffs to keep me going during switchover.  I think this would be a bigger problem to other fighters classes who don't have a middle stance.</p><p>If anything it seemed like my DPS in offensive had improved somewhat. </p><p>The worst thing I saw from the brawler point of view was that they nerfed eagle spin -- it's now eagle strike or somesuch and was basically a taunt with a little damage.  So much for using my nice back attack while soloing.  That hurt.  But if overall DPS was better it seemed like a fair trade to me.  Also, they hadn't touched other combat arts so if most of your damage is coming from combat arts things wouldn't change much.</p><p>I agree the whole thing about bruiser being AOE tanks was stupid.  I don't have that line filled out so I have a great big two AOE attacks.  I find that funny that that makes me an AOE tank.  However, I didn't see anyplace where that misconception on the part of the devs hurt anything at the moment.</p><p>Anyway, those were my impressions.  As far as the fighter update was concerned it didn't look all that bad when I tried it out.  There were a couple minor setbacks (nerfing of eagle spin and the recast timer) but they were compensated by boons elsewhere (deaggro tools in offensive, better DPS, more effective taunts).</p><p>-------------------------------------</p><p>Where I agree is that brawlers don't fit into a slot all that well, which has always been their problem.  This should not be news to anyone.  THAT is what needs to be addressed.  Doesn't really have anything to do with the fighter update that I could see,  but it's an issue. </p><p>I agree that fighters in general and brawlers in particular absolutely need more utility, especially on raids.   There just aren't enough tanking slots for that to be their only job.  While brawlers can stand in in a DPS role they're definately considered a second choice compared to scouts (DPS is my role in raids).  Trying to shove all the fighters into a tanking role and only a tanking role is stupid when you only need one tank in a group or a couple tanks in a raid.  Couple that with the fact that brawlers don't make very good raid tanks (you've got to survive to tank, and you shouldn't require the best gear in the game to survive unless you're fighting some of the toughest encounters in the game.  You definately shouldn't require significantly better gear and playing then other fighters to tank the same content). </p><p>If it goes live with fighters having improved DPS in offensive at least that would allow them to be included in a raid looking to fill out DPS slots when it can't get enough scouts.  A raid with one fourth of the toons being fighters should not be doomed to failure like it is now.</p><p>----------</p><p>It's a shame really.  In EQ1 monks had a very clearly defined job at which they were hands down the best class.  Pulling.  My EQ1 monk pulled a LOT.  I was always welcome in a group unless there was already another monk.  And I was always the puller.  Unfortunately, they messed up the whole aggro dynamic for EQ2.   </p><p>Brawlers are widely considered by players to be the worst of fighters at tanking.  To compensate they need some other job at which they would be the best.</p><p>-----------------------------</p><p>I would not take part in any boycott.  I can't summon the interest to level another toon to 80 and my bruiser is my only level 80 toon.  If I stopped playing my bruiser I'd most likely quit the game and that's not exactly going to improve my lot.  (If I quit the game even if they do fix things it won't do me any good)</p>