So any work being done on the fighter revamp

[madha]

<p>Been a good chunk of time since the producers letter suspending the fighter changes from going live. But no new test patches of any thing.  Whats the deal are we just goign to sit on the fighter changes bundle it up with the LS revamp and force people to accept it? Or are we going to be seeing any sort of new new fighter revamps, or changes to the current test build?</p><p>Just was wondering if the devs are acctualy working on changing the test build or if they are just going to let enough time past where thery can push it live and when the live backlash hits, they can say it was on test for 2 month we posted everywhere what the intent of the change was its your own fault for not testing it.</p><p>Or are we just gona scrap the idea instead of reinvent the wheel?</p>

[bryldan]

<p>Im pretty sure they are just going on their regular schedule. Last week was the week they where to supposed to push it live and they pushed some stuff live. Usually we do not see anything the next week (this week) then we start getting big chunks the following week. Whether that will change who knows they might add some stuff this week but probably not the LS change. You must also realize that holding this back is also putting added pressure on them with extra work considering they not only have to think about the LS changes now (and everything else they were planning for this GU) but they also have to consider what to do to improve the fighter revamp.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Or are we just gona scrap the idea instead of reinvent the wheel?</p></blockquote><p>We wont know till sometime next week when they post the next set of changes to test.</p><p>I would assume they are going forward with the path they have chosen, and if you have concerns / issues with it, you should copy to test and report specific issues in these forums.</p><p>Alternatively, you can run around willy nilly and scream the sky is falling until it make it to live <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Seriously though, if you have a regular group, get them to test copy and check it out.</p>

[Hirofortis]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Or are we just gona scrap the idea instead of reinvent the wheel?</p></blockquote><p>The wheel was NOT being reinvented here.  They were fixing a problem that has been building for many expansions now.  I always love how people try and incite anger by trying to use stupid things like this.</p><p>The facts are:</p><p>Tank agro is brokenTaunts never caught up with the DPS raisingTanks rely on others for them to do there jobTanks are the most needed and least needed classTank group vs single target is brokenTanks had become more of a DPS class than a tank</p><p>So here SOE is trying to find a way to give tanks a new pair of all weather tires so we can make it to our job instead of trying to use fix a flat to fix us and you complain about them reinventing the wheel.</p><p>SOE, please keep working on the fighter revamp.  It is needed and wanted, even if some have limited vision.</p>

[DngrMou]

<p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tanks rely on others for them to do there job</p></blockquote><p>all classes, to some extent, rely on other classes.  I don't see why tanks should be any different.  They're not islands unto themselves, and they should, imo, have some dependency on other classes.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tanks rely on others for them to do there job</p></blockquote><p>all classes, to some extent, rely on other classes.  I don't see why tanks should be any different.  They're not islands unto themselves, and they should, imo, have some dependency on other classes.</p></blockquote><p>It was the EXTENT to which they were relying on those classes that was the problem. The percentage of the tank's hate that was coming from transfers/hate gain. That was the issue. They still gain some that way, just not as much.</p><p>I wouldn't be shocked to see tweaks on Test this week. I would guess that the LS revamp and what-not that was originally GU52 would come to Test at it's normally scheduled time based on when the "Hotfix" went in. So ....  the week of the 16th. But I wouldn't be at all surprised to see additional Fighter/Hate changes come between now and then.</p><p>In fact I hope there ARE some. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Hirofortis]

<p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tanks rely on others for them to do there job</p></blockquote><p>all classes, to some extent, rely on other classes.  I don't see why tanks should be any different.  They're not islands unto themselves, and they should, imo, have some dependency on other classes.</p></blockquote><p>Does a healer rely on another class to do 90% of there healing?</p><p>Does a mezzer rely on another class to do 90% of there mezzing?</p><p>Does a DPS class rely on another class to do 90% of there DPS?</p><p>The answer is NO!!!  So why should fighters rely on other classes to do 90% of there hate.</p><p>Point in fact:</p><p>Other classes such as the assasin and swashy transfer hate to the fighters.  This hate is capped at 50% of whatever that class can dish out.  Now in the case of a T1 assasin this can be easily 4 times as much as the tank can generate.  The tanks should be able to generate enough agro that they can stay on top of the agro list with other Comparably equipped classes.  Right now if you stick a tank with no means of hate transfer they are going to be struggling to do anything to keep agro other than constantly casting emergency heals.  Try sticking any tank in a group, give them No hate transfer and no hate gain from other classes and watch how often your DPS dies.  And that will just be from the classes auto attacking, not even using there abilities. </p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The answer is NO!!!  So why should fighters rely on other classes to do 90% of there hate.</p></blockquote><p>Where in the world are you comming up with these numbers?</p><p>In half the groups I'm in, I'm getting little to no assistance on hate, yet, amazingly, I'm not having trouble tanking them...</p><p>And yes, dps classes can easily be 50% affected by other classes.  Healers can be affected by other classes but to a far lesser degree.</p><p>I like how you list mezing as a primary class/role, thats funny.  Mezing is a rare/occasional utility, where dps is the enchanters primary active responsability, and yes that is greatly affected by other classes.</p>

[DngrMou]

<p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tanks rely on others for them to do there job</p></blockquote><p>all classes, to some extent, rely on other classes.  I don't see why tanks should be any different.  They're not islands unto themselves, and they should, imo, have some dependency on other classes.</p></blockquote><p>Does a healer rely on another class to do 90% of there healing?</p><p>Does a mezzer rely on another class to do 90% of there mezzing?</p><p>Does a DPS class rely on another class to do 90% of there DPS?</p><p>The answer is NO!!!  So why should fighters rely on other classes to do 90% of there hate.</p></blockquote><p>I have no idea where you got that 90% figure...explain it, please.</p><p>DPS classes do rely on others for buffs that increase their DPS...which can more than double melee dps.  There's power regen, stat buffs, crit buffs, DA buffs that assist various classes in doing their jobs better.  There is no reason at all that tanks should be exempted from this.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have no idea where you got that 90% figure...explain it, please.</p><p><strong>DPS classes do rely on others for buffs that increase their DPS...which can more than double melee dps. </strong> There's power regen, stat buffs, crit buffs, DA buffs that assist various classes in doing their jobs better.  There is no reason at all that tanks should be exempted from this.</p></blockquote><p>People seem to conveniently forget this when they cry foul over Fighter DPS, eh?</p>

[DngrMou]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have no idea where you got that 90% figure...explain it, please.</p><p><strong>DPS classes do rely on others for buffs that increase their DPS...which can more than double melee dps. </strong> There's power regen, stat buffs, crit buffs, DA buffs that assist various classes in doing their jobs better.  There is no reason at all that tanks should be exempted from this.</p></blockquote><p>People seem to conveniently forget this when they cry foul over Fighter DPS, eh?</p></blockquote><p>I don't know.  I don't have an issue with fighters, their dps, or this rebalancing effort outside of the changes they're making to the swashbucklers.  Inter-class dependency is something of an aside, and peripheral to that discussion.</p>

[epyon333]

<p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tanks rely on others for them to do there job</p></blockquote><p>all classes, to some extent, rely on other classes.  I don't see why tanks should be any different.  They're not islands unto themselves, and they should, imo, have some dependency on other classes.</p></blockquote><p>Does a healer rely on another class to do 90% of there healing?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Then take necro heals from necros and dirges.  Oh and take the dirge rezz out too.</span></p><p>Does a mezzer rely on another class to do 90% of there mezzing?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Take the troubador mezz out.</span></p><p>Does a DPS class rely on another class to do 90% of there DPS?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Take the zerker group DPS buff and the bards group melee/magic/heal crit buff out.</span></p><p>The answer is NO!!!  So why should fighters rely on other classes to do 90% of there hate.</p><p>Point in fact:</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Is that all classes help all classes on some way or another.  oh and you forgot all the def buff that get put on figthers.  Aggro is just a one role type issue,  if you generate hate you could help manage it too.</span></p><p>Other classes such as the assasin and swashy transfer hate to the fighters.  This hate is capped at 50% of whatever that class can dish out.  Now in the case of a T1 assasin this can be easily 4 times as much as the tank can generate.  The tanks should be able to generate enough agro that they can stay on top of the agro list with other Comparably equipped classes.  Right now if you stick a tank with no means of hate transfer they are going to be struggling to do anything to keep agro other than constantly casting emergency heals.  Try sticking any tank in a group, give them No hate transfer and no hate gain from other classes and watch how often your DPS dies.  And that will just be from the classes auto attacking, not even using there abilities. </p></blockquote>

[RafaelSmith]

<p>Group members being dependent on other group members is part of the game I like.</p><p>How certain synergies between various classes are better than others is another part of the game I like.</p><p>Aside from boosting taunts and making them scale up like DPS does I really do not see the need to change all the other stuff they are trying to change.  Currently the only fighters out DPSing the DPS classes are those that are better geared/speced and skilled.</p><p>They are reinventing the wheel....and using a sledgehammer to do it instead of a screwdriver.</p>

[DngrMou]

<p><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Other classes such as the assasin and swashy transfer hate to the fighters.  This hate is capped at 50% of whatever that class can dish out.  Now in the case of a T1 assasin this can be easily 4 times as much as the tank can generate.  The tanks should be able to generate enough agro that they can stay on top of the agro list with other Comparably equipped classes.  Right now if you stick a tank with no means of hate transfer they are going to be struggling to do anything to keep agro other than constantly casting emergency heals.  <strong>Try sticking any tank in a group, give them No hate transfer and no hate gain from other classes and watch how often your DPS dies.  And that will just be from the classes auto attacking, not even using there abilities. </strong></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>That is not generally the case in my experience.  Yes, I've come across tanks where this is what happens, but I think that's a matter of equip, and play style...and then even with hate transfer on them I can rip aggro.</p>

[bryldan]

<p><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tanks rely on others for them to do there job</p></blockquote><p>all classes, to some extent, rely on other classes.  I don't see why tanks should be any different.  They're not islands unto themselves, and they should, imo, have some dependency on other classes.</p></blockquote><p>Does a healer rely on another class to do 90% of there healing?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Then take necro heals from necros and dirges.  Oh and take the dirge rezz out too.</span></p><p>Does a mezzer rely on another class to do 90% of there mezzing?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Take the troubador mezz out.</span></p><p>Does a DPS class rely on another class to do 90% of there DPS?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Take the zerker group DPS buff and the bards group melee/magic/heal crit buff out.</span></p><p>The answer is NO!!!  So why should fighters rely on other classes to do 90% of there hate.</p><p>Point in fact:</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Is that all classes help all classes on some way or another.  oh and you forgot all the def buff that get put on figthers.  Aggro is just a one role type issue,  if you generate hate you could help manage it too.</span></p><p>Other classes such as the assasin and swashy transfer hate to the fighters.  This hate is capped at 50% of whatever that class can dish out.  Now in the case of a T1 assasin this can be easily 4 times as much as the tank can generate.  The tanks should be able to generate enough agro that they can stay on top of the agro list with other Comparably equipped classes.  Right now if you stick a tank with no means of hate transfer they are going to be struggling to do anything to keep agro other than constantly casting emergency heals.  Try sticking any tank in a group, give them No hate transfer and no hate gain from other classes and watch how often your DPS dies.  And that will just be from the classes auto attacking, not even using there abilities. </p></blockquote></blockquote><p>plz do take the troubs mez lol.....</p>

[Yimway]

<blockquote><p><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p> <strong>Try sticking any tank in a group, give them No hate transfer and no hate gain from other classes and watch how often your DPS dies.  And that will just be from the classes auto attacking, not even using there abilities. </strong></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>Seriously, did a group a couple days ago, guard, ranger,ranger,wizard,mystic,necro.</p><p>No real hate transfers (~4% from wiz), yet miraculously, aggro wasn't really much of an issue.  Some people can tank, some can't.</p>

[Caetrel]

<p>Lol it is so untrue that tanks cannot hold aggro in group situations without gains/ transfers.  Total bs, unless the tank is greatly outclassed in gear/ skill or both.  The dirges in my guild won't WASTE the con slot in an instance.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Seriously, did a group a couple days ago, guard, ranger,ranger,wizard,mystic,necro.</p><p>No real hate transfers (~4% from wiz), yet miraculously, aggro wasn't really much of an issue.  Some people can tank, some can't.</p></blockquote><p>On the other hand, it's not <strong><em>just</em></strong> about the tank and their skill (or lack thereof). In that kind of group build, you can also be sure that the DPS in that group know how to manage their hate efficiently, maximizing their DPS without constantly ripping from the tank.</p><p>This idea that aggro management is the sole responsibility of the tank is something that people need to get over. It's <strong><em>everyone's</em></strong> responsibility to manage their threat appropriately. While the inability to hold aggro may be a sign of a clueless tank, it's also true that any T1/T2 DPS class that wants to rip from the tank can, pretty much at will.</p>

[Zegon]

As an instance-geared berserker with mostly masters, it really boils down to who I'm with. Mythical wizards, for instance, will rip hate off of me every fight if I don't have some sort of hate transfer or hate boosting. Even the guild ranger will grab hate regularly if he doesn't manage his hate properly. Some hate management support makes holding hate really easy unless I get stunned on pull and they go all-out, but when it comes to mythicals, I just have to hope the DPS knows what they're doing and realizes they're not in an optimal group. Otherwise trying to hold hate is a toss of the dice.

[Kiara]

<p>Yes, the team is continuing to work on the fighter revamp.</p><p>Please let's keep the feedback in the already existing threads and not clutter up the forum with more threads discussing the same things.  It really makes it so much harder to track feedback.</p><p>Thanks!</p>