Getting the word out: Tanking DPS (pre gu51)

[victer]

<p>I want to keep it simple and just get the word out so that the devs are clear with what is actually going on.</p><p>Tanks currently do not have the parses that alot of people are complaining about without tanking in offensive stance.</p><p>Any tank that currently is tanking in DStance is exaclty where they should be DPS wise compared to the rest of the raid. They are parseing near the bards and the low geared/skilled scouts and mages. I challenge anyone to proove otherwise.</p><p>The high parseing numbers that we see people complaining about saying that tanks are doing too much DPS while tanking are only that high because the tank is tanking in OStance.</p><p>All im trying to say is if you want to force tanks to tank in DStance that is fine but there is no reason to further reduce the tanks DPS in Dstance. The -0.5 melee modifier is not needed. Forceing the player into Dstance is enough.</p><p>Reduceing the tanks DPS even further in DStance will do the following negative things:</p><ul><li>Fights last longer.</li><li>Timed events harder to do with weaker grps.</li><li>Tanks entertainment reduced.</li><li>More elite grp setups instead of bringing some weaker parseing players/classes.</li><li>Weaker grps fail more often because the fights are dragged out from the tank not contributing to killing the hard mobs.  </li></ul>

[Obadiah]

<p>If high fighter DPS is truly the issue, just forcing a change to the EXISTING defensive stances reduces my DPS by 20%. The stances on Test - minus the 0.5 multiplier - should reduce it by 26%. WITH the -0.5 penalty, as it currently is on Test it is reduced by ~40%.</p><p>I think the motivation behind the multiplier is, that's the one thing that CAN'T be buffed away. But it's overkill, I agree. Doing the math from Live I know my groups as a whole can expect to have 10%-15% lower DPS. There will be no increase from the DPS classes to offset the decrease from me. The longer these stay on Test the more people have confirmed those findings. I've seen Guardians, Berserkers, and Monks all arriving at the same conclusions. I've not seen anyone post here or in chat otherwise with respect to how this impacts GROUP DPS.</p>

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p>Fighter dps isnt the issue.. the sooner ppl realize this, the sooner they can get the proper threat changes live.. If u dont force defensive stance where it isnt required, and make defensive viable for holding aggro where its needed, then everyone should be happy..</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p>The only thing good about this change is the increase to damage taken in offensive and the increase of taunt effectivness in defensive.  If tanks tank in defensive they do <em>not</em> do too much DPS.  When they are DPSing in offensive they do decent DPS, usually less than a rogue and with the increase to damage taken in offensive that will put their survivability in line with other classes dps/survivability wise.</p>

[ke'la]

<p><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I want to keep it simple and just get the word out so that the devs are clear with what is actually going on.</p><p>Tanks currently do not have the parses that alot of people are complaining about without tanking in offensive stance.</p><p>Any tank that currently is tanking in DStance is exaclty where they should be DPS wise compared to the rest of the raid. They are parseing near the bards and the low geared/skilled scouts and mages. I challenge anyone to proove otherwise.</p><p>The high parseing numbers that we see people complaining about saying that tanks are doing too much DPS while tanking are only that high because the tank is tanking in OStance.</p><p>All im trying to say is if you want to force tanks to tank in DStance that is fine but there is no reason to further reduce the tanks DPS in Dstance. The -0.5 melee modifier is not needed. Forceing the player into Dstance is enough.</p><p>Reduceing the tanks DPS even further in DStance will do the following negative things:</p><ul><li>Fights last longer.</li><li>Timed events harder to do with weaker grps.</li><li>Tanks entertainment reduced.</li><li>More elite grp setups instead of bringing some weaker parseing players/classes.</li><li>Weaker grps fail more often because the fights are dragged out from the tank not contributing to killing the hard mobs.  </li></ul></blockquote><p>You do know that a Bard is a Scout and therefor a DPS class, you SHOULD parce near among Healers(who don't know they are supposed to heal), and for Plate Tanks the low damage healers. BTW, the devs DON'T go by player complants and player parces... they log EVERYTHING and parce every single fight in game and use that(wich includes what stance you are in) to deturmin what you are doing.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>kela wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span >You do know that a Bard is a Scout and therefor a DPS class, you SHOULD parce near among Healers(who don't know they are supposed to heal), and for Plate Tanks the low damage healers. BTW, the devs DON'T go by player complants and player parces... they log EVERYTHING and parce every single fight in game and use that(wich includes what stance you are in) to deturmin what you are doing.</span></blockquote><p>Bards are <em>not</em> a DPS class.  Bards are a support class.  Tanks should parse somewhere near rogues when in offensive and somewhere around bards while in defensive.</p>

[Darkor]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>kela wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>You do know that a Bard is a Scout and therefor a DPS class, you SHOULD parce near among Healers(who don't know they are supposed to heal), and for Plate Tanks the low damage healers. BTW, the devs DON'T go by player complants and player parces... they log EVERYTHING and parce every single fight in game and use that(wich includes what stance you are in) to deturmin what you are doing.</span></blockquote><p>Bards are <em>not</em> a DPS class.  Bards are a support class.  Tanks should parse somewhere near rogues when in offensive and somewhere around bards while in defensive.</p></blockquote><p>Why should a tank in offensive parse near rogues? That does not make sense</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>kela wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>You do know that a Bard is a Scout and therefor a DPS class, you SHOULD parce near among Healers(who don't know they are supposed to heal), and for Plate Tanks the low damage healers. BTW, the devs DON'T go by player complants and player parces... they log EVERYTHING and parce every single fight in game and use that(wich includes what stance you are in) to deturmin what you are doing.</span></blockquote><p>Bards are <em>not</em> a DPS class.  Bards are a support class.  Tanks should parse somewhere near rogues when in offensive and somewhere around bards while in defensive.</p></blockquote><p>Well, if you include procs and such that actually gets attributed to the other groupmates, they're a pretty gosh darn powerful DPS class.</p><p>Regardless, if they are ignoring player complaints and parses and using their own logs, I'm sure they can see the drop in group DPS for themselves. Maybe they are considering how to deal with that before moving forward. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Yimway]

<p>Really tired of the dps arguement.  Skill/gear/buffs being equal, depending on class fighters are parsing below the enchanters and in-line with the bards IN offensive stance.  In deffensive stance we're parsing below bards and above healers.</p><p>The numbers get skewed for example, when me as a raid geared MT guardian goes to scion in a pickup group.  My gear trivializes the zone, and I'm playing with players no where near the same gear and/or skill level. Yes, in that situation where the zone is trivial to my tanking gear, I'm smoking pickup dps classes that honestly just don't know how to min/max their job.  I'll do a 5kish zw in scion without any significant buffs, and the pug wizard will do 2k, the summoner wont manage 1k, and a ranger with half a clue does 3k.  None of this means I'm broken and doing too much dps, just in this group I top the parse.</p><p>In a raid or group of similar geared and skilled players, I'm right where I should be.</p><p>This too much fighter dps crud, is simply a myth.  The only times I'm seeing fighter dps just exponentially off is some specific encounter situations with SK's.  And, honestly, I'm not askign for that to change either.  Bout time the SK got thrown a bone.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>kela wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>You do know that a Bard is a Scout and therefor a DPS class, you SHOULD parce near among Healers(who don't know they are supposed to heal), and for Plate Tanks the low damage healers. BTW, the devs DON'T go by player complants and player parces... they log EVERYTHING and parce every single fight in game and use that(wich includes what stance you are in) to deturmin what you are doing.</span></blockquote><p>Bards are <em>not</em> a DPS class.  Bards are a support class.  Tanks should parse somewhere near rogues when in offensive and somewhere around bards while in defensive.</p></blockquote><p>Why should a tank in offensive parse near rogues? That does not make sense</p></blockquote><p>Because a tank in offensive doesn't have much more survivability or utility than a rogue.  And by near rogues I mean like 10% less than a rogue.</p>

[Morrolan V]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>kela wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>You do know that a Bard is a Scout and therefor a DPS class, you SHOULD parce near among Healers(who don't know they are supposed to heal), and for Plate Tanks the low damage healers. BTW, the devs DON'T go by player complants and player parces... they log EVERYTHING and parce every single fight in game and use that(wich includes what stance you are in) to deturmin what you are doing.</span></blockquote><p>Bards are <em>not</em> a DPS class.  Bards are a support class.  Tanks should parse somewhere near rogues when in offensive and somewhere around bards while in defensive.</p></blockquote><p>Why should a tank in offensive parse near rogues? That does not make sense</p></blockquote><p>Because a tank in offensive doesn't have much more survivability or utility than a rogue.  And by near rogues I mean like 10% less than a rogue.</p></blockquote><p>A tank in offensive brings arguably less utility than either rogue class, when you consider the plethora of debuffs that each rogue brings to the table, as well as the important AA group temp buffs.  Considering dispatch alone, a brigand noticeably increases raid-wide DPS and debuff effectiveness, above his or her sheer dps.  Virtually every CA a swashie lands has a debuff attached.  At present, of course, swashies also bring the very important hate transfer.  Looking at utility alone and taking away the cacpacity to off tank or off-off-tank, as the new update seeks to do for fighters in offensive stance, balance would mean fighters in DPS mode parsing AT or HIGHER than rogues.</p><p>Let's not even talk about bards.  Bards bring so much more utility then either rogues or dps-ing tanks that they shouldn't even be in the discussion.  The individual parse numbers of either bard class are such a pale indicator of what they bring that it's silly even to make the comparison.  Triple the number, at least, to account for it.</p>

[Maroger]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>kela wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>You do know that a Bard is a Scout and therefor a DPS class, you SHOULD parce near among Healers(who don't know they are supposed to heal), and for Plate Tanks the low damage healers. BTW, the devs DON'T go by player complants and player parces... they log EVERYTHING and parce every single fight in game and use that(wich includes what stance you are in) to deturmin what you are doing.</span></blockquote><p>Bards are <em>not</em> a DPS class.  Bards are a support class.  Tanks should parse somewhere near rogues when in offensive and somewhere around bards while in defensive.</p></blockquote><p>Why should a tank in offensive parse near rogues? That does not make sense</p></blockquote><p>Because a tank in offensive doesn't have much more survivability or utility than a rogue.  And by near rogues I mean like 10% less than a rogue.</p></blockquote><p>Since they wear plate armor they should have a whole lot more survivability than rogues.</p>

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p>I dont really agree we should be doing equal or close to equal dps as a t1 dps tho.. but 30-40% less is a descent trade off..</p>

[epyon333]

<p><cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>kela wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>You do know that a Bard is a Scout and therefor a DPS class, you SHOULD parce near among Healers(who don't know they are supposed to heal), and for Plate Tanks the low damage healers. BTW, the devs DON'T go by player complants and player parces... they log EVERYTHING and parce every single fight in game and use that(wich includes what stance you are in) to deturmin what you are doing.</span></blockquote><p>Bards are <em>not</em> a DPS class.  Bards are a support class.  Tanks should parse somewhere near rogues when in offensive and somewhere around bards while in defensive.</p></blockquote><p>Why should a tank in offensive parse near rogues? That does not make sense</p></blockquote><p>lol so it make sense that the guy with the big sword shouldnt do damage.  Saying that the should parse above all the healers and support classes doesnt make sense. </p><p>What should be the reason the mob attacks me?  Because i insulted his mama?  now that really makes sense.</p>

[epyon333]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Really tired of the dps arguement.  Skill/gear/buffs being equal, depending on class fighters are parsing below the enchanters and in-line with the bards IN offensive stance.  In deffensive stance we're parsing below bards and above healers.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The numbers get skewed for example, when me as a raid geared MT guardian goes to scion in a pickup group.  My gear trivializes the zone, and I'm playing with players no where near the same gear and/or skill level. Yes, in that situation where the zone is trivial to my tanking gear, I'm smoking pickup dps classes that honestly just don't know how to min/max their job.</span>  I'll do a 5kish zw in scion without any significant buffs, and the pug wizard will do 2k, the summoner wont manage 1k, and a ranger with half a clue does 3k.  None of this means I'm broken and doing too much dps, just in this group I top the parse.</p><p>In a raid or group of similar geared and skilled players, I'm right where I should be.</p><p>This too much fighter dps crud, is simply a myth.  The only times I'm seeing fighter dps just exponentially off is some specific encounter situations with SK's.  And, honestly, I'm not askign for that to change either.  Bout time the SK got thrown a bone.</p></blockquote><p>Hes a better reason why youd see a fighter high on a parse.  Take an AOE tank in a zone with groups encounters like in Befallen: Cavern of the afflicted.  The DPS would be way above normal, and that shouldnt be used to point out how much dps a fighter can do.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I dont really agree we should be doing equal or close to equal dps as a t1 dps tho.. but 30-40% less is a descent trade off..</p></blockquote><p>%$^&#</p><p>We are nto equal to t1 dps, stop perpetuating this myth.  We are in fact ~45%-65% of T1 dps depending on the fighter class.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The numbers get skewed for example, when me as a raid geared MT guardian goes to scion in a pickup group.  My gear trivializes the zone, and I'm playing with players no where near the same gear and/or skill level. Yes, in that situation where the zone is trivial to my tanking gear, I'm smoking pickup dps classes that honestly just don't know how to min/max their job.</span> </p></blockquote><p>Hes a better reason why youd see a fighter high on a parse.  Take an AOE tank in a zone with groups encounters like in Befallen: Cavern of the afflicted.  The DPS would be way above normal, and that shouldnt be used to point out how much dps a fighter can do.</p></blockquote><p>Even in your case, an aoe t1 dps class will continue to smoke the zerker.  But, yes a zerker might approach the t1 dps numbers of a non aoe focused t1 dps class in the same encounter.  But your picking one encounter that heavily favors that tank and heavily penalizes particular t1 classes.  Certainly when normalized across multiple encounter types, these numbers all fall where expected.</p>

[Nefariouzx]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>kela wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>You do know that a Bard is a Scout and therefor a DPS class, you SHOULD parce near among Healers(who don't know they are supposed to heal), and for Plate Tanks the low damage healers. BTW, the devs DON'T go by player complants and player parces... they log EVERYTHING and parce every single fight in game and use that(wich includes what stance you are in) to deturmin what you are doing.</span></blockquote><p>Bards are <em>not</em> a DPS class.  Bards are a support class.  Tanks should parse somewhere near rogues when in offensive and somewhere around bards while in defensive.</p></blockquote><p>LMFAO! Tanks should parse near rogues while in Off stance, thats the most rediculous thing Ive heard in a long time.</p>

[Darkor]

<p>Now that makes sense what you guys are saying. When a tank is in offensive mode, they should do almost equal dps to a rogue, and when they go in defensive stance they should tank like gods.</p><p>I'll gladly trade off that dps for your godly tanking skills.</p>

[Nefariouzx]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>kela wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>You do know that a Bard is a Scout and therefor a DPS class, you SHOULD parce near among Healers(who don't know they are supposed to heal), and for Plate Tanks the low damage healers. BTW, the devs DON'T go by player complants and player parces... they log EVERYTHING and parce every single fight in game and use that(wich includes what stance you are in) to deturmin what you are doing.</span></blockquote><p>Bards are <em>not</em> a DPS class.  Bards are a support class.  Tanks should parse somewhere near rogues when in offensive and somewhere around bards while in defensive.</p></blockquote><p>Why should a tank in offensive parse near rogues? That does not make sense</p></blockquote><p>Because a tank in offensive doesn't have much more survivability or utility than a rogue.  And by near rogues I mean like 10% less than a rogue.</p></blockquote><p>Do you even play this game? I stand corrected, THIS is the most rediculous thing I've heard in awhile. Thanx for the laughs. Eagerly awaiting your next post.</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Morrolan V wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>kela wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span>You do know that a Bard is a Scout and therefor a DPS class, you SHOULD parce near among Healers(who don't know they are supposed to heal), and for Plate Tanks the low damage healers. BTW, the devs DON'T go by player complants and player parces... they log EVERYTHING and parce every single fight in game and use that(wich includes what stance you are in) to deturmin what you are doing.</span></blockquote><p>Bards are <em>not</em> a DPS class.  Bards are a support class.  Tanks should parse somewhere near rogues when in offensive and somewhere around bards while in defensive.</p></blockquote><p>Why should a tank in offensive parse near rogues? That does not make sense</p></blockquote><p>Because a tank in offensive doesn't have much more survivability or utility than a rogue.  And by near rogues I mean like 10% less than a rogue.</p></blockquote><p>A tank in offensive brings arguably less utility than either rogue class, when you consider the plethora of debuffs that each rogue brings to the table, as well as the important AA group temp buffs.  Considering dispatch alone, a brigand noticeably increases raid-wide DPS and debuff effectiveness, above his or her sheer dps.  Virtually every CA a swashie lands has a debuff attached.  At present, of course, swashies also bring the very important hate transfer.  Looking at utility alone and taking away the cacpacity to off tank or off-off-tank, as the new update seeks to do for fighters in offensive stance, balance would mean fighters in DPS mode parsing AT or HIGHER than rogues.</p><p>Let's not even talk about bards.  Bards bring so much more utility then either rogues or dps-ing tanks that they shouldn't even be in the discussion.  The individual parse numbers of either bard class are such a pale indicator of what they bring that it's silly even to make the comparison.  Triple the number, at least, to account for it.</p></blockquote><p>Can we get an Amen on that. Well stated!</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now that makes sense what you guys are saying. When a tank is in offensive mode, they should do almost equal dps to a rogue, and when they go in defensive stance they should tank like gods.</p><p>I'll gladly trade off that dps for your godly tanking skills.</p></blockquote><p>Actually if the changes stay as-is, you'll be the tank of choice for most instances. Time is money. No one wants to kill things 10% slower.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>kela wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You do know that a Bard is a Scout and therefor a DPS class, you SHOULD parce near among Healers(who don't know they are supposed to heal), and for Plate Tanks the low damage healers.</blockquote><p>Yes, Bards are a scout class. No, they are most definitely not a high DPS class. They are a support class with T3 DPS, ranked higher than healers, lower than fighters (in their offensive stance). Just because they're part of the scout archetype doesn't mean they can be lumped in with predators (T1) and rogues (T2).</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Darkor@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Now that makes sense what you guys are saying. When a tank is in offensive mode, they should do almost equal dps to a rogue, and when they go in defensive stance they should tank like gods.</p><p>I'll gladly trade off that dps for your godly tanking skills.</p></blockquote><p>We are not, and never will do rogue dps.  This is a myth.</p><p>We do dirge dps honestly.  In fact, our top dirge usually beats me on the parse while I'm in full offensive build.  He's pushing 7k, and I'm falling closer to 6-6.5k.  Rogues are doing much higher providing they're getting the same level of buffs.</p><p>Everything of course falls apart when only the MT group is getting full buffs, and the rogue is stuck in a group that doesn't buff him at all.  In this scenario, suddenly tanks are doing rogue dps.  Ie, a max buffed tank is doing the dps of a rogue with no buffs.</p><p>If you want to call that broken, go ahead, but I'm just not seeing that the max dps potential of a fighter being nearly equal to the unbuffed dps potential of a rogue as a broken system.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>noise_3 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Do you even play this game? I stand corrected, THIS is the most rediculous thing I've heard in awhile. Thanx for the laughs. Eagerly awaiting your next post.</blockquote><p>I don't know what game you're playing, but a STA spec rogue in decent tanking gear can tank 95% of the heroic instance content out there right now <strong><em>and</em></strong> continue to put up some good numbers. Of course, raiding is a different thing, but any competent Brigand or Swash should be able tank all of the RoK instances and most of the TSO instances as long as they have decent gear and a proper group build.</p>

[Froed20]

<p>The only tanks that parse near rogues are the ones that are A.) armed to the teeth with their mythical and have gone straight dps in the best gear in the game,  B.) seasoned enough in the game to know their class completely, and C.) lucky enough to have the perfect group setup.  Either that, or they are in a group where they are significantly more geared than the rest of the members.  It should be <span style="text-decoration: underline;">possible </span>for them to do so in offensive.  It should be very, very hard, but being possible is a good thing.  It's possible for my swashy to tank.  I don't tank often, and I would preffer not to, but in a pinch when the tank goes down, I can swap my gear, go defensive, yank the mob off the nuke-happy wizard, and hold my own for as long as I can while the tank is getting rezzed and rebuffed. And then once he is buffed I can dump all my hate right back onto him.  If I wanted to, I could go completely defensive AA and gear-wise.  If I play my cards right, I could probably hold my own in certain situations with the perfect group setup and a good balance of luck and skill.  It's the ability to be flexible like this that makes the game fun and interesting.  That doesn't mean it's easy.  The amount of tanks that can parse like that are not so large, and there are plenty more conditions that have to be met to do that than are neccessary for scouts.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>comparing classes for dps will never serve an argument. you will find someone from any class that can parse exceptionally well.</p><p>so you see a tank doing 8k on some trivial fights, but don't mind the fury doing 9k.</p>

[Kiara]

<p>There are several open threads about this. </p><p>Please keep the feedback in one of these.</p><p>Excessive threads discussing the same topics is not helpful for collecting feedback.</p><p>Thanks!</p>