Can't change be simple? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

epyon333

02-05-2009, 05:35 PM

Oh i agree with you. when i first saw what they were planning i got cold sweats remembering update 13 and what a mistake it was. I was glad to return when things got ironed back out and the game was fun again, but now we have update 51 and im scared.They are going over board. It seems most of the complains from or about fighters is that they do too much DPS and the def stance sucks.The only problem that needs to have a big fix is the def stance. Give is some hate gain or a bonus to taunts. give it something to balance the loss of hate from the loss of DPS. You make the Def stance usable and ppl start using that you fix the tanks doing too much DSP complaint.Theirs been many times i started in my def stance and had to switch because i have having aggro problems.

RafaelSmith

02-05-2009, 05:35 PM

<cite>Fidelus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>This has been the most contraversial and complicated Live Update since LU13. Are the test changes even going to be able to go live in the near future? Would it be better to scrap these complex changes and keep it simple?If fighter dps is too good...why not nerf plate tank dps across the board, putting brawlers solidly on top of the tank parse? If transfers and hate gain buffs are too powerful, why not a slight nerf to all percentages and an increase in taunt values? There are many simple ways to correct the trends that the Developers have become unhappy with, without reinventing the wheel.</blockquote>I agree, seems like there are a number of tweaks and changes they could be making to the current mechanics but instead they fallback to standard operating procedure for SOE which is to use a sledge hammer to redesign the wheel yet again.K.I.S.S

Yimway

02-05-2009, 05:53 PM

<cite>Fidelus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>If fighter dps is too good...why not nerf plate tank dps across the board, putting brawlers solidly on top of the tank parse? If transfers and hate gain buffs are too powerful, why not a slight nerf to all percentages and an increase in taunt values? There are many simple ways to correct the trends that the Developers have become unhappy with, without reinventing the wheel. </blockquote>Wrong forum methinks.However, do show me the raid parses placing plate tank's dps too high? If you find some, I'll show you a raid where the players skill/gear/buffs are not equal.

Noaani

02-05-2009, 05:57 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>However, do show me the raid parses placing plate tank's dps too high? If you find some, I'll show you a raid where the players skill/gear/buffs are not equal.</blockquote>That obviously depends on what you consider to be too high.

RafaelSmith

02-05-2009, 06:18 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>However, do show me the raid parses placing plate tank's dps too high? If you find some, I'll show you a raid where the players skill/gear/buffs are not equal.</blockquote>That obviously depends on what you consider to be too high.</blockquote>Assuming comprabable gear/skill/masters and optimized buffs........too high would be tanking and doing more than the DPS mages and DPS scouts.

Caetrel

02-05-2009, 06:20 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fidelus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>If fighter dps is too good...why not nerf plate tank dps across the board, putting brawlers solidly on top of the tank parse? If transfers and hate gain buffs are too powerful, why not a slight nerf to all percentages and an increase in taunt values? There are many simple ways to correct the trends that the Developers have become unhappy with, without reinventing the wheel. </blockquote>Wrong forum methinks.However, do show me the raid parses placing plate tank's dps too high? If you find some, I'll show you a raid where the players skill/gear/buffs are not equal.</blockquote>I don't think that it's too high, I'm supposing the question is all- it's obviously a Dev concern. I see no big deal at tanks doing 8k dps or more, when the assassin is doing 15k. This IS the right forum, I am questioning material that is on the Test server right now.

Noaani

02-05-2009, 06:27 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>However, do show me the raid parses placing plate tank's dps too high? If you find some, I'll show you a raid where the players skill/gear/buffs are not equal.</blockquote>That obviously depends on what you consider to be too high.</blockquote>Assuming comprabable gear/skill/masters and optimized buffs........too high would be tanking and doing more than the DPS mages and DPS scouts.</blockquote>Thats what you consider too high. Personally, I consider too high to be doing half of the DPS of a mage or scout under the conditions you listed.

Brook

02-05-2009, 06:30 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></blockquote></blockquote>Thats what you consider too high. Personally, I consider too high to be doing half of the DPS of a mage or scout under the conditions you listed.</blockquote>LOL, your funny.

Yimway

02-05-2009, 06:41 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Assuming comprabable gear/skill/masters and optimized buffs........too high would be tanking and doing more than the DPS mages and DPS scouts.</blockquote>Thats what you consider too high. Personally, I consider too high to be doing half of the DPS of a mage or scout under the conditions you listed.</blockquote>Currently on live, I'm doing 60% the dps of the assasin. I max around 6.5k, he can do 13k. Other guilds are doing 8k on fighter and 15k on t1 dps. Still, actual dps is not very far from where you think it *should* be.

Noaani

02-05-2009, 06:50 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Currently on live, I'm doing 60% the dps of the assasin. I max around 6.5k, he can do 13k. Other guilds are doing 8k on fighter and 15k on t1 dps. Still, actual dps is not very far from where you think it *should* be.</blockquote>I consider that to be perfectly acceptable if you are not tanking at the time you parse that. If you were tanking, I consider it to be too high.

Noaani

02-05-2009, 06:52 PM

<cite>Brook wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats what you consider too high. Personally, I consider too high to be doing half of the DPS of a mage or scout under the conditions you listed.</blockquote>LOL, your funny.</blockquote>/shrugWait till I have had a few whiskeys and bring out the Kerra jokes.(or look at the changes on test to see that I happen to have a similar opinion to the devs, at least in this matter).

Brook

02-05-2009, 06:57 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brook wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats what you consider too high. Personally, I consider too high to be doing half of the DPS of a mage or scout under the conditions you listed.</blockquote>LOL, your funny.</blockquote>/shrugWait till I have had a few whiskeys and bring out the Kerra jokes.(or look at the changes on test to see that I happen to have a similar opinion to the devs, at least in this matter).</blockquote>/shrugMama always said I shouldnt make fun of people like you because you cant help it, but its OK I understand.

Yimway

02-05-2009, 07:04 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Currently on live, I'm doing 60% the dps of the assasin. I max around 6.5k, he can do 13k. Other guilds are doing 8k on fighter and 15k on t1 dps. Still, actual dps is not very far from where you think it *should* be.</blockquote>I consider that to be perfectly acceptable if you are not tanking at the time you parse that. If you were tanking, I consider it to be too high.</blockquote>I'm tanking in offensive stance for those numbers, and I don't find that too high. In defensive stance, i do ~3.5k, but wont hold aggro if T1 dps does 15k in that build.It is my expectation that the GU changes would fix that I could hold aggro in defensive stance, but I don't feel it needs to do anything with the offensive tanking numbers. Being at the bottom of t2 or top of t3 dps isn't an issue for offensive tanking.Frankly, I don't find competing with the dirge on dps numbers to be an issue for offensive tanking dps output.

Noaani

02-05-2009, 07:24 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Currently on live, I'm doing 60% the dps of the assasin. I max around 6.5k, he can do 13k. Other guilds are doing 8k on fighter and 15k on t1 dps. Still, actual dps is not very far from where you think it *should* be.</blockquote>I consider that to be perfectly acceptable if you are not tanking at the time you parse that. If you were tanking, I consider it to be too high.</blockquote>I'm tanking in offensive stance for those numbers, and I don't find that too high. In defensive stance, i do ~3.5k, but wont hold aggro if T1 dps does 15k in that build.It is my expectation that the GU changes would fix that I could hold aggro in defensive stance, but I don't feel it needs to do anything with the offensive tanking numbers. Being at the bottom of t2 or top of t3 dps isn't an issue for offensive tanking.Frankly, I don't find competing with the dirge on dps numbers to be an issue for offensive tanking dps output.</blockquote>The stance you use is irrelevent, the job you are doing at the time is what is important.

Bruener

02-05-2009, 07:34 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Currently on live, I'm doing 60% the dps of the assasin. I max around 6.5k, he can do 13k. Other guilds are doing 8k on fighter and 15k on t1 dps. Still, actual dps is not very far from where you think it *should* be.</blockquote>I consider that to be perfectly acceptable if you are not tanking at the time you parse that. If you were tanking, I consider it to be too high.</blockquote>I'm tanking in offensive stance for those numbers, and I don't find that too high. In defensive stance, i do ~3.5k, but wont hold aggro if T1 dps does 15k in that build.It is my expectation that the GU changes would fix that I could hold aggro in defensive stance, but I don't feel it needs to do anything with the offensive tanking numbers. Being at the bottom of t2 or top of t3 dps isn't an issue for offensive tanking.Frankly, I don't find competing with the dirge on dps numbers to be an issue for offensive tanking dps output.</blockquote>The stance you use is irrelevent, the job you are doing at the time is what is important.</blockquote>The stance is completely relevent. If it is trivialized content than offensive stance should be the stance to use to optimize personal DPS and raid DPS. Hell, on trivialized content a raid can throw a rogue into the MT spot and buff him up like a MT and you will get the same effect...the reason they don't is simply because tanks know how to tank, rogues do not.You act like a MT on gynok is parsing 8k and that is just not happening on Live right now. A MT going completely defensive on tough encounters parses 4k...maybe, while the Pure DPS are able to DPS the same no matter what the fight is. Tanks take the hit to DPS when it is tough encounters...do T1 dps take similar hits? No.Its been said over and over again and yet for some reason you just can't seem to admit it. Why is it you can't fathom a fighter sacrificing survivability in order to gain DPS on trivial content? You want tanks to be defensive no matter what they are tanking and that is completely lame.To make things even worse balance is going to go out the window again. So with changes when tanking all DPS will suck and all tanks will have no problem holding agro because of what the new stances are providing. Can anybody else foresee this going back to the why take tank X when tank Y can hold agro just as well, parses about the same while doing it, but has much better survivability? There are offensive tanks for a reason, they are supposed to bring DPS to the table as well...its something they traded survivability for. There is a reason 90% of guilds use Guards as MTs, because they can take hits better than anybody. So, why again are we bringing that Paladin to OT? Why are we bringing the SK to OT when in defensive he is parsing like the Guard? Ok, well we will drop those few fighters we have been bringing to raids to bring more enchanters and sorcerers to up raid DPS for 99% of the content, and than bring in your tank alts to do the job when we need to. Back to 2 fighters on a raid...WOOT!!!!

Elanjar

02-05-2009, 07:36 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Currently on live, I'm doing 60% the dps of the assasin. I max around 6.5k, he can do 13k. Other guilds are doing 8k on fighter and 15k on t1 dps. Still, actual dps is not very far from where you think it *should* be.</blockquote>I consider that to be perfectly acceptable if you are not tanking at the time you parse that. If you were tanking, I consider it to be too high.</blockquote>I'm tanking in offensive stance for those numbers, and I don't find that too high. In defensive stance, i do ~3.5k, but wont hold aggro if T1 dps does 15k in that build.It is my expectation that the GU changes would fix that I could hold aggro in defensive stance, but I don't feel it needs to do anything with the offensive tanking numbers. Being at the bottom of t2 or top of t3 dps isn't an issue for offensive tanking.Frankly, I don't find competing with the dirge on dps numbers to be an issue for offensive tanking dps output.</blockquote>With how much utility dirges bring I feel i should always out-dps them. When you need a dirge for every group then i feel i should be able to outdps them every time (in offensive of course)

Trynnus1

02-05-2009, 07:37 PM

Noaani

02-05-2009, 07:38 PM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>With how much utility dirges bring I feel i should always out-dps them. When you need a dirge for every group then i feel i should be able to outdps them every time (in offensive of course)</blockquote>And when a dirge is needed for every group, I will agree with you 100%.Personally, I prefer troubadors for most heroic content.

Noaani

02-05-2009, 07:39 PM

<cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>With that in mind - it is time to bring back DPS getting one shotted.</blockquote>Unless I specificly spec for it, or specificly equip items for it (thus lowering DPS) I do die from a single shot from almost any TSO heroic named mob, and also in one shot from about 50% of non named TSO heroic mobs.Since its already this way, I am glad you agree with me!

Bruener

02-05-2009, 07:41 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>With how much utility dirges bring I feel i should always out-dps them. When you need a dirge for every group then i feel i should be able to outdps them every time (in offensive of course)</blockquote>And when a dirge is needed for every group, I will agree with you 100%.Personally, I prefer troubadors for most heroic content.</blockquote>Yet another example that you don't seem to understand the advantage that a dirge will bring over a troub. Personally I prefer both when I run an instance. 5 bards on raids ftw...and yet you think they should parse more than fighters tanking?

Noaani

02-05-2009, 07:42 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>The stance is completely relevent.</blockquote>Stance is not relevent, simply because the idea behind when you would use each stance is changing.I need no reason other than that to say stance is not relevent, but the job you are doing is.

Couching

02-05-2009, 07:43 PM

The is nothing wrong to tank in offensive with high dps and agro as long as you have significant less survivability comparing to defensive. Problem on live server:(a) Plate tanks have same good uncontested avoidance in offensive and defensive.It makes them too good to tank most content in offensive.(b) Taunts are too weak comparing to dps generated by dps classes.(c) Not enough tank gear to help tanks to hold agro.Solutions:(a) Make block contested avoidance in offensive and uncontested avoidance in defensive. I can assure you that less tanking in offensive for plate tanks and no more high dps while tanking in defesnive. If they try to tank in offensive, they get incredible damage spike. In this case, they deserve good dps and better agro than tanking in defensive.(b) Taunt needs a boost but don't make holding agro trivial with just clicking two taunt buttons. Currently on test sever, it's no fun and very poor design. There is no progression for tank to better their agro since most hate generated by several taunts/combat arts. A master craft geared tank should always be worse than fable geared tank in everything including holding agro.(c) Make hate proc on tank gear be something rather than weak hate proc, such as 500 hate or 1000 hate. It's useless. Make it 5k or 10k hate proc so that tank can get benefit from it and hold agro in defensive with the improved taunt.

Noaani

02-05-2009, 07:50 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>With how much utility dirges bring I feel i should always out-dps them. When you need a dirge for every group then i feel i should be able to outdps them every time (in offensive of course)</blockquote>And when a dirge is needed for every group, I will agree with you 100%.Personally, I prefer troubadors for most heroic content.</blockquote>Yet another example that you don't seem to understand the advantage that a dirge will bring over a troub. Personally I prefer both when I run an instance. 5 bards on raids ftw...and yet you think they should parse more than fighters tanking?</blockquote>Yes I do.The groups tank is the only character in the group with a job that is not DPS, and is full time. Thus, his DPS should be lower than a full heal spec'd templar as far as I am concerned.Also, I fully understand the advantages of a troubador over a dirge, however, I still prefer a troub. Most group sI am in, reguardless of whether I an tank, DPS, healer or utility, are mage heavy. Since I do not need a dirges survivability buffs as a tank, nor do any of the other fighters I group with regularly, the only uses for a bard in my groups are power regen and DPS buffs. Due to mage heavy groups, troubs are the obcious winner.It lowers my personal DPS when I am tanking, but why would I care about that? A dirge is also able to put out more DPS himself than a troub, yet the troub still adds more to the group (and omg troub+illy+templar+some DPS in a group I am tanking = stuff dies at a stupid fast rate).See, I look at a group as a whole. It is not centered around the tank, it is centered around the content. Give the tank the survivability he needs to stay up, then the rest of the groups resources are given to the DPS. Buffing a tank more than is needed is a waste.

Yimway

02-05-2009, 08:00 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>The stance you use is irrelevent, the job you are doing at the time is what is important.</blockquote>It may be irrelevent to you, as last I checked your not the one tanking or healing, however it is relevent to me. Cause defensive tanking trivial content = snore.

Noaani

02-05-2009, 08:02 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>The stance you use is irrelevent, the job you are doing at the time is what is important.</blockquote>It may be irrelevent to you, as last I checked your not the one tanking or healing, however it is relevent to me. Cause defensive tanking trivial content = snore.</blockquote>As I have said several times, guardian and monk man, guaridan and monk.I more often AM the one tanking on heroic content than anything else, my main has had to take a back seat for all but raids over the last 12 months or so.

Bruener

02-05-2009, 08:22 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>The stance you use is irrelevent, the job you are doing at the time is what is important.</blockquote>It may be irrelevent to you, as last I checked your not the one tanking or healing, however it is relevent to me. Cause defensive tanking trivial content = snore.</blockquote>As I have said several times, guardian and monk man, guaridan and monk.I more often AM the one tanking on heroic content than anything else, my main has had to take a back seat for all but raids over the last 12 months or so.</blockquote>Ah, so the motives behind your complete acceptance of what SOE wants to do. I am sorry your main does not bring enough value to group content, I know plenty of T1 dps that do. So let me get this straight. You have to sit your main on everything but raids, so meaning all group content. This change does a plus plus for you. It significantly lowers fighter dps because they are forced into a defensive role anytime they are tanking...making it more likely that your T1 dps will be more wanted (although good T1 dps has no problem getting groups). Also, for the non-mains you have that are tanks...which I am sure are not raid geared since you bring your main to raids...you get to have the easy-mode..push a couple taunts tank without the expectation of maximizing your toon for DPS + tank-ability. I am sorry that my TSO raid geared, fully mastered SK that I have been playing since launch can tank in offensive and bring a lot of DPS to groups while your tank classes are forced to tank in defensive already. Oh wait, no I am not.

dawy

02-05-2009, 08:31 PM

<cite>Fidelus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>This has been the most contraversial and complicated Live Update since LU13. Are the test changes even going to be able to go live in the near future? Would it be better to scrap these complex changes and keep it simple?If fighter dps is too good...why not nerf plate tank dps across the board, putting brawlers solidly on top of the tank parse? If transfers and hate gain buffs are too powerful, why not a slight nerf to all percentages and an increase in taunt values? There are many simple ways to correct the trends that the Developers have become unhappy with, without reinventing the wheel. </blockquote>Quite right,why on earth this "revamp" has been needed still boggles my mind tbh,it just isnt needed its as simple as that.Tweak classes by all means but once again they feel the need to throw the baby out with the bath water,i just hope they scrap it and be honest and admit thier mistake..

Noaani

02-06-2009, 12:46 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight. You have to sit your main on everything but raids, so meaning all group content. This change does a plus plus for you. It significantly lowers fighter dps because they are forced into a defensive role anytime they are tanking...making it more likely that your T1 dps will be more wanted (although good T1 dps has no problem getting groups).</blockquote>Wow, thats reading a whole lot into a small statement, and its all wrong.I tank heroic instances because the tanks in my guild are usually not interested in tanking them after raids. They get on their DPS alts, I get on my fighter alt (strangly, our healers all have healer alts...). If anyone in the guild needs something from a heroic instance, I tank it for them,I don't play a fighter in a heroic instance to DPS, I play it to tank them so that others can DPS. I don't complain abou tanking them, because I enjoy doing so, and I also enjoy helping out those in my guild.What I don't get is how you can go from "I tank more often than I DPS in heroic instance" to "I want all fighter DPS nerfed so I can play my wizard in heroic crap". Its an illogical gap that you seem to have bridged in your head, yet made no effort to explain how you got there.

Full_Metal_Mage

02-06-2009, 03:42 AM

Fighters not fighting would be the final nail in the EQ2 coffin. Thankfully, Bruce Ferguson realized this, even if poorly parsing wizards and rangers don't.

EvilAstroboy

02-06-2009, 04:04 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>With how much utility dirges bring I feel i should always out-dps them. When you need a dirge for every group then i feel i should be able to outdps them every time (in offensive of course)</blockquote>And when a dirge is needed for every group, I will agree with you 100%.Personally, I prefer troubadors for most heroic content.</blockquote>Yet another example that you don't seem to understand the advantage that a dirge will bring over a troub. Personally I prefer both when I run an instance. 5 bards on raids ftw...and yet you think they should parse more than fighters tanking?</blockquote>Yes I do.The groups tank is the only character in the group with a job that is not DPS, and is full time. Thus, his DPS should be lower than a full heal spec'd templar as far as I am concerned.Also, I fully understand the advantages of a troubador over a dirge, however, I still prefer a troub. Most group sI am in, reguardless of whether I an tank, DPS, healer or utility, are mage heavy. Since I do not need a dirges survivability buffs as a tank, nor do any of the other fighters I group with regularly, the only uses for a bard in my groups are power regen and DPS buffs. Due to mage heavy groups, troubs are the obcious winner.It lowers my personal DPS when I am tanking, but why would I care about that? A dirge is also able to put out more DPS himself than a troub, yet the troub still adds more to the group (and omg troub+illy+templar+some DPS in a group I am tanking = stuff dies at a stupid fast rate).See, I look at a group as a whole. It is not centered around the tank, it is centered around the content. Give the tank the survivability he needs to stay up, then the rest of the groups resources are given to the DPS. Buffing a tank more than is needed is a waste.</blockquote>Oh really? Last time I checked the archtype was called 'Fighter' not a 'Meatshield' or 'Taunter'. This indicates that the classes do indeed fight and contribute to damage. A templar is from the archtype 'Healer'.... if anything this indicates that they heal, instead of contribute to damage. Furthermore the descriptions of Shadowknights and Bezerkers indicate that they are offensive tanks... doing significant amounts of damage while maintaining hatred from nearby enemies.Of course you prefer a troubador, its so that you dont look so horrible compared to the tank. If the tank is doing more damage than you as a mage you should probably reroll an easier game like Hello Kitty Online.You have done nothing but troll the testing forums claiming that fighters should do nothing but taunt and take damage. If that sounds fun to you then I hope you roll a tank when those changes go live, because there will be a big demand for tanks once all the fun is drained from the archtype.

Noaani

02-06-2009, 05:52 AM

<cite>EvilAstroboy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh really? Last time I checked the archtype was called 'Fighter' not a 'Meatshield' or 'Taunter'. </blockquote>When your last possible defense is the etymology of the archtype your character belongs too, its time to give up.~ Just sayin.

Eugam

02-06-2009, 06:37 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EvilAstroboy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh really? Last time I checked the archtype was called 'Fighter' not a 'Meatshield' or 'Taunter'.</blockquote>When your last possible defense is the etymology of the archtype your character belongs too, its time to give up.~ Just sayin.</blockquote>Its embarrasing.We not only need the fighter change, we need much more changes to bring back some sort gameplay. The whole game is full of shortcuts, which imho has to stop.EvilAstroboy, the true description of the archetype is PROTECTIVE fighter. Nobody wants tanks to be meatshields and taunt bots. Your taunts and rescues need to mean something or you cant pull mobs back from healers and dps. I find it a quite honorable and demanding role to care for your group while trying to stay alive and in the right spot. /shrugThe next step has to be a NPC damage revamp. Oneshotted DPS classes render healers and tanks useless. Currently there is no playable solution to reverse a wrong step aka to much dps. Everyone peels once in a while. But if there is no gameplay to catch it then is a boring shortcut gameplay. Just make revivie spots outside of instances and lock players out after dying and you ll see what i am talking about. Less zerging more playing.It also has to stop that content is only doable with the same set of classes over and over. That was ok for Nizara. But not for half of the heroic endgame. Every dirge has a right to find a spot, just as every other class. We really need a bit less damage on NPC and maybe raise HP to bring in endurance a bit again. The game is bleeding to death from persistant instances without respans. Dying means abolutely nothing when you can run back in 20 seconds. Shortcuts everywhere..

Noaani

02-06-2009, 06:50 AM

<cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighters not fighting would be the final nail in the EQ2 coffin. Thankfully, Bruce Ferguson realized this, even if poorly parsing wizards and rangers don't.</blockquote>I am curious, what exactly is it you think Bruce Ferguson realized, and what basis do you have for thinking that?

Eugam

02-06-2009, 09:12 AM

<cite>EvilAstroboy wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have done nothing but troll the testing forums claiming that fighters should do nothing but taunt and take damage. If that sounds fun to you then I hope you roll a tank when those changes go live, because there will be a big demand for tanks once all the fun is drained from the archtype.</blockquote>My monk will happily tank for everyone if the revamp ever hits live.But thats not the point. Tank dps is not the point, raid tank dps compared to raid wizzards is not the point. The point is the grand picture of current gameplay. You play since 2006 ? You should know better. Your offensive stance is to do damage. Nothing else.Do i have to tell you what a fabled zerker is able to do in off stance while having plate mitigation and the HP pool of a fighter ? Do you think this is ok ?As melee warden i do have a full set melee gear. I love it when doing quests or hunting writs. Mobs go down 2-3 times faster. Am i able to heal that way ? Nope, every group would kick me. Thus i have to use my warden heal stuff. Once 186 AA i even get stances and have to decide if i want to be a solid healer or solid dps. Both at once wont work unless i am the 3rd healer in a group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Vulkan_NTooki

02-06-2009, 09:41 AM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EvilAstroboy wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have done nothing but troll the testing forums claiming that fighters should do nothing but taunt and take damage. If that sounds fun to you then I hope you roll a tank when those changes go live, because there will be a big demand for tanks once all the fun is drained from the archtype.</blockquote>My monk will happily tank for everyone if the revamp ever hits live.But thats not the point. Tank dps is not the point, raid tank dps compared to raid wizzards is not the point. The point is the grand picture of current gameplay. You play since 2006 ? You should know better. Your offensive stance is to do damage. Nothing else.Do i have to tell you what a fabled zerker is able to do in off stance while having plate mitigation and the HP pool of a fighter ? Do you think this is ok ?As melee warden i do have a full set melee gear. I love it when doing quests or hunting writs. Mobs go down 2-3 times faster. Am i able to heal that way ? Nope, every group would kick me. Thus i have to use my warden heal stuff. Once 186 AA i even get stances and have to decide if i want to be a solid healer or solid dps. Both at once wont work unless i am the 3rd healer in a group <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>The red highlighted text:Yes.. I know.. about 60-70 % of what a t1 dps would do with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />Oh.. and me in full defensive in any of the CL(except perhaps asylum) LS or EF zones u can go whatever spec u like and still be able to keep me up..Question is.. can u do 5k+ dps in your dps setup without much raid gear?Oh.. any of the RoK instances I dont even need a healer even if full offensive.. so my fav trio group, me, my wife, and my brother now have to bring an outsider, that might not even speak our language into our social groups doing the easy RoK instances simply because I will not be able to hold aggro in offensive. And killing them slower is not an option because I'd run out of power from my non efficient hp/pp wise heals.I dont really care anymore tho... I'm almost 80 with my wiz and [Removed for Content] how much more relaxing it is to play a dps class..(allthough I do die alot from aoe's and dps aggro)... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /> He gonna out dps my tank (which I have tweaked for dps since early DoF) in no time.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Eugam

02-06-2009, 09:54 AM

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>The red highlighted text:Yes.. I know.. about 60-70 % of what a t1 dps would do with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>And the 2nd part ? Do you think its ok ?We should drop parses for a moment and look at the situation. A fabled zerker in off stance is able to peel from a def stance SK without any consequences, while the T1 dps guy is probably dropping dead to the floor. I have seen this, this is not some cryptic parser math <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And really, its ok if a tank is doing some nice dps in off. But the plates have to decide like the rest of us. Off or def. And trust me, my main is healer and i try to be as serious about it as possible. We healers are the only ingame who care about you guys <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I care about you guys and i think its healthier to be in def LOL.

Noaani

02-06-2009, 09:57 AM

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do i have to tell you what a fabled zerker is able to do in off stance while having plate mitigation and the HP pool of a fighter ? Do you think this is ok ?</blockquote>Yes.. I know.. about 60-70 % of what a t1 dps would do with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>And this is fair, because pure DPS classes have 60 - 70% the healing power of what a templar would have with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs.Oh wait...And this is fair, because pure DPS classes have 60 - 70% the tanking ability of what a guardian would have with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs.Oh wait...And this is fair, because pure DPS classes have 60 - 70% the buffage of what a dirge would have with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs.Oh wait...And this is fair, because pure DPS classes have 60 - 70% the debuffs of what a rouge would have with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs.Oh wait...If you want to be able to do your job to 100% effectivness, and then switch to do my job to 60 - 70 % effectiveness, I want to be able to do someone elses job to 60 - 70% effectivness, reguardless of whether we are talking about groups or raids.

Vulkan_NTooki

02-06-2009, 10:30 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do i have to tell you what a fabled zerker is able to do in off stance while having plate mitigation and the HP pool of a fighter ? Do you think this is ok ?</blockquote>Yes.. I know.. about 60-70 % of what a t1 dps would do with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>And this is fair, because pure DPS classes have 60 - 70% the healing power of what a templar would have with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs.Oh wait...And this is fair, because pure DPS classes have 60 - 70% the tanking ability of what a guardian would have with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs.Oh wait...And this is fair, because pure DPS classes have 60 - 70% the buffage of what a dirge would have with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs.Oh wait...And this is fair, because pure DPS classes have 60 - 70% the debuffs of what a rouge would have with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs.Oh wait...If you want to be able to do your job to 100% effectivness, and then switch to do my job to 60 - 70 % effectiveness, I want to be able to do someone elses job to 60 - 70% effectivness, reguardless of whether we are talking about groups or raids.</blockquote>I dont see a problem with that.. leave spells / buffs / utility out of the equation tho.. cause thats game mechanics u cannot tweak yourself..but for Surviveability vs dps. then yes..How many scouts, wizards do u know that actually try this route... I see scouts getting incredibly high numbers of both avoidance, hp and mitigation when putting on defensive, and speccing tank route(wife is a swashy).. They only sac about 30-40% dps doing so.. oh wait.. that number should ring a bell..A wizard can spec defensive too, and put on alot of miti, def, agi, gear, absorb attacks gear etc etc.. saccing 30-40% of your dps output, Im sure no mob in game will be able to 1 shot u 100% of the time unless it does the same to any other tank. And my lvl 78 wizard(well 79 now) still havent met a solo mob that could one shot me(not in tso either).. and Im far below Nooani gear wise.. Im not one shotted in CL or EF or LS Tso instances either..2 shotted yes.. but havent been 1 shotted yet.Just a reminder.. the tank drawing aggro in full offensive will die within 2 hits unless healed.. and last night we had an assassin tank that first named in SoH most of the time cause the tank couldnt hold aggro. I didnt even see him loose hp more than 2 times.a dps specced tank and a tank specced dps is actually more equal than you'd ever admit.. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Vulkan_NTooki

02-06-2009, 11:43 AM

There is also other things you have to take into consideration..For every tank, there is 2 buffers, 2 dps and 1 healer.. that goes for every raid and group out there.U can tweak by adding dps, or adding another healer.... Or even add another utility buffer..Adding a tank is usually not worth it unless u cant get any of the others..And seriously.... playing pure dps class is so relaxing compared to playing a tank its crazy.. maybe this update will fix that, so its relaxing playing a tank too.. but if I could choose between relaxing but boring vs stressful and fun I'd choose the latter. After all.. its dmg that kills the mob.. not neener neener..

Lethe5683

02-06-2009, 11:51 AM

For my assassin actually using defensive stance gives me over 65% avoidance, 50% mit and only takes away about 5% of my dps.

Noaani

02-06-2009, 12:00 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>For my assassin actually using defensive stance gives me over 65% avoidance, 50% mit and only takes away about 5% of my dps.</blockquote>And totally respecing as a wizard gives me 45.2% mit and 49% avoidance, while losing about 30% of my DPS.Since tanking is either or (ie, you are alive or dead, you have aggro or you don't), there is no accurate way to measure someone tanking 70% as well as a fighter.however, I can say without question that Dominus Rile still one shots my wizard in full fabled defensive gear, fully defensive spec'd, with two healers. If I drop Manashield he deals to that in a single hit, leaving me without power, and then kills me the next swing.Even with no accurate way of guaging tanking ability, I am fairly confidant that this is significantly below 60 - 70% of what a fighter is able to do.Personally, I am glad that they are reducing fighter DPS instead of increasing mage tanking, but thats just me.

epyon333

02-06-2009, 12:14 PM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>The red highlighted text:Yes.. I know.. about 60-70 % of what a t1 dps would do with equal gear, equal skill and equal buffs. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>And the 2nd part ? Do you think its ok ?We should drop parses for a moment and look at the situation. A fabled zerker in off stance is able to peel from a def stance SK without any consequences, while the T1 dps guy is probably dropping dead to the floor. I have seen this, this is not some cryptic parser math <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />And really, its ok if a tank is doing some nice dps in off. But the plates have to decide like the rest of us. Off or def. And trust me, my main is healer and i try to be as serious about it as possible. We healers are the only ingame who care about you guys <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> I care about you guys and i think its healthier to be in def LOL.</blockquote>The Sk and zerker were in the right stances. Its good that the zerker was doing that much damage. Which is why the def stance need to be able to creat more hate. Like SOE has said DMG has group exponentialy while threat has grown linearly. Just fix it where fighters get a way to generate more threat in the def stance that slightly exceeds what they generate in the off stance. That way the can go off stance on the easy stuff and help take the mob down or for when there the OT but still have a viable tool to keep aggro in the def stance when the mobs get harder.

feldon30

02-06-2009, 12:19 PM

The change is simple. Click "Tank". /AFK

Yimway

02-06-2009, 12:21 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>For my assassin actually using defensive stance gives me over 65% avoidance, 50% mit and only takes away about 5% of my dps.</blockquote>And totally respecing as a wizard gives me 45.2% mit and 49% avoidance, while losing about 30% of my DPS.</blockquote>Sigh,Put on 6 pieces of dispersion gear, grab a templar and go duo half the heroic content in t8. Properly geared, you'll tank better than half the 'tanks' on the server.The thread is about whether or not fighters should have more playstyle options at their disposal when tanking trivial content. I think absolutely they should, cause the alternative is incredibly borring. You chose to campaign that all fighters should be taunt bots. We obviously have our differences, and it is up to the design/developement team to decide which is game appropriate.

DngrMou

02-06-2009, 12:28 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fidelus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>If fighter dps is too good...why not nerf plate tank dps across the board, putting brawlers solidly on top of the tank parse? If transfers and hate gain buffs are too powerful, why not a slight nerf to all percentages and an increase in taunt values? There are many simple ways to correct the trends that the Developers have become unhappy with, without reinventing the wheel. </blockquote>Wrong forum methinks.However, do show me the raid parses placing plate tank's dps too high? If you find some, I'll show you a raid where the players skill/gear/buffs are not equal.</blockquote>He's not saying it is. He's using that as an example. IF.....plate tank dps is too high....THEN...modify plate tanks, not swashy's, Necros, and shoulder slot appearance items.

Eugam

02-06-2009, 12:33 PM

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>And seriously.... playing pure dps class is so relaxing compared to playing a tank its crazy.. maybe this update will fix that, so its relaxing playing a tank too.. but if I could choose between relaxing but boring vs stressful and fun I'd choose the latter. After all.. its dmg that kills the mob.. not neener neener..</blockquote>Ever considered a tank to be tank-support hypbrid then tank-dps hybrid ?Support the dps with your taunts and rescue to do their job instead doing (partly ofc.) their job ? And its not like you dont do any damage as best buffed player in group.Look from the view of my mystic. Although he has a M1 single ward and AA into it he has hardly time to debuff when the tank is off. Why do i have to be a pure heal bot so tank can dps ? Same for my warden. After casting some HoT's i d like to move behind the mob and get in a few hits of dps. I cant on a off tank, all i do is spam heals.Tanks where designed to hybrid tankage and taunting back the mobs from dps and heals. Lead, position yourself optimal and rule the hate in the group. Dont look at it as taunt bot, you are really ruling the hate flow while watching your defence and the tanks are the best class to rule the hate flow. Guardian describes it well, but fits all plate tanks.

Vulkan_NTooki

02-06-2009, 12:36 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even with no accurate way of guaging tanking ability, I am fairly confidant that this is significantly below 60 - 70% of what a fighter is able to do.Personally, I am glad that they are reducing fighter DPS instead of increasing mage tanking, but thats just me.</blockquote>If a tank go full offensive he prolly gonna get one shotted by that same mob...But that last line in your reply caught my interest.. why should they have to reduce anything to fix threat generation for fighters? They dont have to increase mage tanking, nor reduce fighter dps.. for imho, thats allready quite balanced.

epyon333

02-06-2009, 12:48 PM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>And seriously.... playing pure dps class is so relaxing compared to playing a tank its crazy.. maybe this update will fix that, so its relaxing playing a tank too.. but if I could choose between relaxing but boring vs stressful and fun I'd choose the latter. After all.. its dmg that kills the mob.. not neener neener..</blockquote>Ever considered a tank to be tank-support hypbrid then tank-dps hybrid ?Support the dps with your taunts and rescue to do their job instead doing (partly ofc.) their job ? And its not like you dont do any damage as best buffed player in group.Look from the view of my mystic. Although he has a M1 single ward and AA into it he has hardly time to debuff when the tank is off. Why do i have to be a pure heal bot so tank can dps ? Same for my warden. After casting some HoT's i d like to move behind the mob and get in a few hits of dps. I cant on a off tank, all i do is spam heals.Tanks where designed to hybrid tankage and taunting back the mobs from dps and heals. Lead, position yourself optimal and rule the hate in the group. Dont look at it as taunt bot, you are really ruling the hate flow while watching your defence and the tanks are the best class to rule the hate flow. Guardian describes it well, but fits all plate tanks.</blockquote>Right now were mainly in our off stance not to only do DPS its mainly so we can hold aggro. When i, just like other fighters have been saying, go defensive we cant "rule the hate". We do that best as of now in our off stances. The only fix that is needed is allowing us better hate control in the def stance. Their have been many times id perfer better def over more dps but def means nothing if i dont have the mob on me.

Eugam

02-06-2009, 01:00 PM

<cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>And seriously.... playing pure dps class is so relaxing compared to playing a tank its crazy.. maybe this update will fix that, so its relaxing playing a tank too.. but if I could choose between relaxing but boring vs stressful and fun I'd choose the latter. After all.. its dmg that kills the mob.. not neener neener..</blockquote>Ever considered a tank to be tank-support hypbrid then tank-dps hybrid ?Support the dps with your taunts and rescue to do their job instead doing (partly ofc.) their job ? And its not like you dont do any damage as best buffed player in group.Look from the view of my mystic. Although he has a M1 single ward and AA into it he has hardly time to debuff when the tank is off. Why do i have to be a pure heal bot so tank can dps ? Same for my warden. After casting some HoT's i d like to move behind the mob and get in a few hits of dps. I cant on a off tank, all i do is spam heals.Tanks where designed to hybrid tankage and taunting back the mobs from dps and heals. Lead, position yourself optimal and rule the hate in the group. Dont look at it as taunt bot, you are really ruling the hate flow while watching your defence and the tanks are the best class to rule the hate flow. Guardian describes it well, but fits all plate tanks.</blockquote>Right now were mainly in our off stance not to only do DPS its mainly so we can hold aggro. When i, just like other fighters have been saying, go defensive we cant "rule the hate". We do that best as of now in our off stances.The only fix that is needed is allowing us better hate control in the def stance. Their have been many times id perfer better def over more dps but def means nothing if i dont have the mob on me.</blockquote>I know that. Thats where the game is broken a bit and why some devs try to revamp fighter. Thats why i dont complain as heals spamming warden. But thats also why i am pro revamp. Aggro control by aggro spells aka taunts and not a tank dpsing to hold aggro.

Vulkan_NTooki

02-06-2009, 01:01 PM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>And seriously.... playing pure dps class is so relaxing compared to playing a tank its crazy.. maybe this update will fix that, so its relaxing playing a tank too.. but if I could choose between relaxing but boring vs stressful and fun I'd choose the latter. After all.. its dmg that kills the mob.. not neener neener..</blockquote>Ever considered a tank to be tank-support hypbrid then tank-dps hybrid ?Support the dps with your taunts and rescue to do their job instead doing (partly ofc.) their job ? And its not like you dont do any damage as best buffed player in group.Look from the view of my mystic. Although he has a M1 single ward and AA into it he has hardly time to debuff when the tank is off. Why do i have to be a pure heal bot so tank can dps ? Same for my warden. After casting some HoT's i d like to move behind the mob and get in a few hits of dps. I cant on a off tank, all i do is spam heals.Tanks where designed to hybrid tankage and taunting back the mobs from dps and heals. Lead, position yourself optimal and rule the hate in the group. Dont look at it as taunt bot, you are really ruling the hate flow while watching your defence and the tanks are the best class to rule the hate flow. Guardian describes it well, but fits all plate tanks.</blockquote>Then you group with some bad tanks.. sorry.. thats how it is..A good tank will balance his dps and surviveability to make sure u get to do what YOU want to do without loosing group total progress.If u have to struggle to heal a tank in offensive, then this tank SHOULD be in defensive after GU 51.. And he will prolly be happy about it too.What if you could do what u just described u wanted to do.. debuff, do some dps etc while the tank was in full offensive.. Healing would still be easy, u could dps some, u could debuff.. you could play like you wanted to play.. would u still prefer that said tank in defensive making the encounter stay alive longer?PS: I might be different.. but in my groups, healers make the call what equipment/stance I play in... I adjust my gear/stance based on experience with the said encounters, then give healers a heads up how Im about to tank, and tell them to tell me if they want me more defensive or more offensive.. This way healers get to play how they want to play. And btw.. most healers say, go more offensive if u can.. even if Im bloody fully offensive.. go figure.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Caetrel

02-06-2009, 01:23 PM

I get the feeling that the overwhelming majority of players dislike the bulk of the fighter/ hate changes. Everyone I know personally in the game either thinks the changes are needless and hates the whole package, or has major issues with the solution that was GU51. The majority of replies here in this thread as well. And in so many other threads, players range from disagreeable to downright resentful.

Lethe5683

02-06-2009, 01:25 PM

<cite>Fidelus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I get the feeling that the overwhelming majority of players dislike the bulk of the fighter/ hate changes. Everyone I know personally in the game either thinks the changes are needless and hates the whole package, or has major issues with the solution that was GU51. The majority of replies here in this thread as well. And in so many other threads, players range from disagreeable to downright resentful.</blockquote>/agree

epyon333

02-06-2009, 02:31 PM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>epyon333 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>And seriously.... playing pure dps class is so relaxing compared to playing a tank its crazy.. maybe this update will fix that, so its relaxing playing a tank too.. but if I could choose between relaxing but boring vs stressful and fun I'd choose the latter. After all.. its dmg that kills the mob.. not neener neener..</blockquote>Ever considered a tank to be tank-support hypbrid then tank-dps hybrid ?Support the dps with your taunts and rescue to do their job instead doing (partly ofc.) their job ? And its not like you dont do any damage as best buffed player in group.Look from the view of my mystic. Although he has a M1 single ward and AA into it he has hardly time to debuff when the tank is off. Why do i have to be a pure heal bot so tank can dps ? Same for my warden. After casting some HoT's i d like to move behind the mob and get in a few hits of dps. I cant on a off tank, all i do is spam heals.Tanks where designed to hybrid tankage and taunting back the mobs from dps and heals. Lead, position yourself optimal and rule the hate in the group. Dont look at it as taunt bot, you are really ruling the hate flow while watching your defence and the tanks are the best class to rule the hate flow. Guardian describes it well, but fits all plate tanks.</blockquote>Right now were mainly in our off stance not to only do DPS its mainly so we can hold aggro. When i, just like other fighters have been saying, go defensive we cant "rule the hate". We do that best as of now in our off stances.The only fix that is needed is allowing us better hate control in the def stance. Their have been many times id perfer better def over more dps but def means nothing if i dont have the mob on me.</blockquote>I know that. Thats where the game is broken a bit and why some devs try to revamp fighter. Thats why i dont complain as heals spamming warden. But thats also why i am pro revamp. Aggro control by aggro spells aka taunts and not a tank dpsing to hold aggro.</blockquote>Aggro control by taunts is unrealistic and would really make the fighters boring to play. I mean why would a mob want me dead when im hitting him with a nerf sword instead of the wiz thats setting him on fire or the preist class thats healing that damage hes causing or the assassin behind him tearing his back up? What because i call him mama ugly? Taunts are a tool to help us keep aggro because we shouldnt be doing the most damage, but it would look lame to hold aggro by mostly using taunts.The only thing that is broken is the def stance. theres no need for a major class revamp. Once the def stance is fixed you would see fighters DPS drop as more fighters would actually use it since they could have the better def and still hold aggro. But just because the fighters could hold aggro while in def is no reason to say we cant with the off stance as long as we dont over work the healer, other wise you might as well just put is permanatly in the def stance and get rid of the off stance so were just like we were before the first class revamp in LU 13.

Full_Metal_Mage

02-06-2009, 03:58 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighters not fighting would be the final nail in the EQ2 coffin. Thankfully, Bruce Ferguson realized this, even if poorly parsing wizards and rangers don't.</blockquote>I am curious, what exactly is it you think Bruce Ferguson realized, and what basis do you have for thinking that?</blockquote>Bruce Ferguson realized that fighters not fighting would be the final nail in the EQ2 coffin. (I would actually think that a person capable of logging in to this website would possess sufficient reading comprehension skills to have understood that from my original post. I was apparently mistaken.) I know this because I read (and comprehended <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> ) his producer's letter.What remains to be seen is how Mr. Ferguson & Co. will clean up the mess that Arlik was trying to make.