T8 Fabled items on broker? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Grong

02-05-2009, 01:41 PM

As I leveled my bruiser, I would check the broker for fabled items and occasionally find something good to upgrade too. When I hit 70 I noticed there was no Fabled leather armor or weapons at all.My question is why? Is it all no-trade? Do people transmute it all? Is there just a lot of people at cap and everything being discovered is being used?As a solo Bruiser, I was hoping to harvest, collect shiny's,....to build up enough money to upgrade my gear since I don't have a situtation that allows me to play long enough in a group without the need for afk and disrupting the other players in the group.I can buy all my Masters in T8 that are Fabled, just never see any other fabled items.Thanks.

GangleG

02-05-2009, 01:45 PM

it's no-trade

Grong

02-05-2009, 01:55 PM

Could you enlighten me as to the reason why it is No-trade.Thanks

RafaelSmith

02-05-2009, 02:01 PM

Its because T8 was the first tier they actually sorta got the whole concept of how characters should gear themselves up correct. Instead of clicking rocks at level x2 for MC and then getting/seeing nothing worth a [Removed for Content] until the next tier and the next x2 level.I do however think they went overboard with the "no-trade" on everything. The game has a broker and a market....there needs to be things in the game worthwhile for the market to work. Seriously after a certain point in T8....the market is only good for adornments, potions and masters.

Wytie

02-05-2009, 02:04 PM

I think SOE doesnt want someone to be able to equip a toon with end game gear easly with plat via broker.What you seem to be looking for is raid gear. If you do not raid you dont really need raid gear seems like the point that they are trying to make.Personally I have no opinion on that matter its just what I see from my perspective on your question.

GangleG

02-05-2009, 02:07 PM

Because fabled loot comes from raid zones (and some heroic instances). It's called progression; you kill raid mobs for better loot, enabling your raid to tackle harder raid content. You don't need raid gear to harvest.Just watch the 70-79 channel - there is usually always a raid item that is being sold from a zone.

RafaelSmith

02-05-2009, 02:08 PM

The truth is that no-trade allows them to create better items....i could spend the rest of the day publishing a essay as to why that is.

CoLD MeTaL

02-05-2009, 02:14 PM

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Could you enlighten me as to the reason why it is No-trade.Thanks</blockquote>It's their way of controlling the economy, and making you desire to participate in the game in the way they want you to participate.It also 'discourages' plat farming since there isn't anything worth while to purchase with plat alone. (except mythicals, go figure)SOE hopes you will play longer because they can tease you along with gear that 'might' drop for you. 1 thing you can do is watch in level chat for 'loot rights' selling. though usually very expensive, often very nice items can be purchased in this manner, including raid patterns.No-trade is by far the dumbest thing I believe there is in this game. I know why it exists, but it completely breaks the look an dfeel of adventuring. But they have to keep the 17 yr old boys interested by some means.

RafaelSmith

02-05-2009, 02:29 PM

<cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite><blockquote>No-trade is by far the dumbest thing I believe there is in this game. I know why it exists, but it completely breaks the look an dfeel of adventuring. But they have to keep the 17 yr old boys interested by some means.</blockquote>Huh? It exists to encourage adventuring. Not sure what you mean about the "feel" of adventuring.Things "feel" much better when I have to fight my way thru a dungeon to get something -vs- cliking the buy button on the broker.There have been very few games that properly balance no-trade gear -vs- tradable gear. EQ2 was horrible T0-T7, they got better in T8 but went too far. There needs to be more tradable "quality" items.

glowsintheda

02-05-2009, 03:36 PM

No trade should be reserved for quested items and fabled items (except masters), Legendary for the most part should be attuneable, exceptions should be for items that drop off like the last mob in any given instance and tend to be just a bit better then the rest of the stuff from those zones. Legendary drops from mobs in open zones should not be no trade, espically if all the rest of the drops from that particular mob are tradeable and the weakest of the drops is no trade ( I am looking at you woven wooly mittens)

CoLD MeTaL

02-05-2009, 04:18 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Huh? It exists to encourage adventuring. Not sure what you mean about the "feel" of adventuring.</blockquote>When is the last time you read a fantasy novel, and the great hero fought through the dungeon and finally eradicated evil but couldn't sell any of the loot?T8 usage of NO-TRADE is horrid, ie. nearly everything. Even crap no one would buy if given the chance.It's not like you can't sell loot rights. Since there is a valid work around, why have it at all?This does NOT encourage adventuring, it DISCOURAGES alts. Which I have come to believe is THE point with TSO.

RafaelSmith

02-05-2009, 04:43 PM

<cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite><blockquote> it DISCOURAGES alts. Which I have come to believe is THE point with TSO.</blockquote>Hopefully they will start making more use of the new "heirloom" feature which should work out nicely for ALTS.I personally have no problem with items being attuned to an account instead of character.

Grong

02-06-2009, 01:56 AM

I have to agree with Cold Metal.There are quite a few people like me who would like to better their toon but do not have a real world situation conducive to grouping/raiding.Why shouldn't a raider be able to sell the gear they received from vanquishing a hard foe and profit from it instead of just only being able to transmute it or sell the loot rights, which is essentially the same thing.Treasure hunters in real life don't risk life and limb just so they can find items they can never use or sell.Even us solo players have a desire to better our toons-why should the option of using crafting, harvesting..to build up a good amount of money to be able to purchase the items we are not able to gain in other ways?

wullailhuit

02-06-2009, 04:13 AM

Devs have stated , if they made a fabled item tradeable , they WOULD reduce it's stats in comparison to a fabled item that is No-Trade.So , say no to tradeable Fabled items.

Lethe5683

02-06-2009, 11:24 AM

The only thing I think that should be no trade equipment wise is quest rewards...

GangleG

02-06-2009, 01:19 PM

Or how about the players asking for the best gear in the game get over their envy and do the content everyone else does for those rewards.

Grong

02-06-2009, 01:46 PM

<cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or how about the players asking for the best gear in the game get over their envy and do the content everyone else does for those rewards.</blockquote>I looked back, and it's weird, but I didn't see anywhere where someone was asking for the "best gear in the game."

Lethe5683

02-06-2009, 01:48 PM

<cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite><blockquote>SOE hopes you will play longer because they can tease you along with gear that 'might' drop for you. </blockquote>That's the real reason.

Noaani

02-06-2009, 02:13 PM

<cite>wullailhuit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Devs have stated , if they made a fabled item tradeable , they WOULD reduce it's stats in comparison to a fabled item that is No-Trade.</blockquote>As well they should.Doesn't mean that tradeable fabled items should not exist though, does it?

Grong

02-07-2009, 02:02 AM

Reducing stats would be just fine by me if it resulted in there being at least a few fabled t8 items I could upgrade from MC/legendary. I'm not looking for the best gear in the game or even raid type gear-just the desire to have items to which I could upgrade.If the reason is to keep Raiders in the game is to have no-trade items that they have to spend a lot of time trying to acquire-then use the same logic with us solo types who also have a desire to better our toons with gear a little better ten MC/Legendary but not at the level of the games "best gear."

GangleG

02-07-2009, 03:01 AM

So take the logical step in progression and do group instances. Then take the next logical step in progression and start raiding.

Grong

02-07-2009, 12:30 PM

<cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote>So take the logical step in progression and do group instances. Then take the next logical step in progression and start raiding.</blockquote>Going back and actually reading, I find that the OP, me, has stated they(I) do not have a lifestyle conducive to grouping/raiding. If the OP(I) did, then this thread would be moot. I love reading.

Macross_JR

02-07-2009, 01:56 PM

Man, why does it seem most people have tag envy? I mean that's all it is. It was tagged fabled, doesn't mean all fabled items are good to use. I think I have 1 or 2 raid jewelery pieces on my defiler, the rest are legendary items(from collections for the most part). Something doesn't have to be tagged fabled for it to be good. The best players in the game don't always use all fabled, they use the best item for the slot they want.

GangleG

02-07-2009, 04:11 PM

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote>So take the logical step in progression and do group instances. Then take the next logical step in progression and start raiding.</blockquote>Going back and actually reading, I find that the OP, me, has stated they(I) do not have a lifestyle conducive to grouping/raiding. If the OP(I) did, then this thread would be moot. I love reading.</blockquote>That's nice... so if you don't want to/can't do the content, then why should the devs change the way loot works just to appease you? Oh, let me guess: because you pay the subscription just like everyone else. Well, the content is there for you to experience, so either do the content for the rewards or get over your envy and accept that there's a thing called progression.

Taldier

02-07-2009, 04:26 PM

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reducing stats would be just fine by me if it resulted in there being at least a few fabled t8 items I could upgrade from MC/legendary. I'm not looking for the best gear in the game or even raid type gear-just the desire to have items to which I could upgrade.If the reason is to keep Raiders in the game is to have no-trade items that they have to spend a lot of time trying to acquire-then use the same logic with us solo types who also have a desire to better our toons with gear a little better ten MC/Legendary but not at the level of the games "best gear."</blockquote>What about the people who actually earned those items only to see them nerfed so that people can buy them off the broker. The reason raid gear is better than solo gear is because it has to be in order to raid. If you are soloing you do not need raid gear, the only reason for a non-raider to have raid gear is to show it off since there is no solo content that is difficult in MC gear.Furthermore for people to claim that they do not have a real life situation that allows them to raid or even group is somewhat unrealistic. Unless you can only log in for 30 minutes a day and use eq2 as a chat server there is no such thing. Sure you wont be able to raid like some of those crazy hardcore raiders. But can you log in for 3 hours once a week? You can raid casually no problem. Can you log in for 1-2 hours at a time? You can do groups. Even if you cant raid, you can get rare raid quality drops off of heroic instance mobs.The basic rule they tend to follow is that drops off of instance mobs are no trade and drops off of open world mobs are not. This is because you can farm instances every time the timer is up, whereas you have to compete with other players and deal with respawning mobs in dungeons. Most raid mobs are in instances. If they removed no trade from raid loot the broker would be flooded with easily farmed raid loot that people dont actually need for the content that they are doing and it would totally bork progression. Would you really still enjoy playing the game if the content you currently enjoy required no effort at all? Why would you want raid gear to do solo content? Its completely pointless.

Gisallo

02-07-2009, 07:27 PM

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to agree with Cold Metal.There are quite a few people like me who would like to better their toon but do not have a real world situation conducive to grouping/raiding.Why shouldn't a raider be able to sell the gear they received from vanquishing a hard foe and profit from it instead of just only being able to transmute it or sell the loot rights, which is essentially the same thing.Treasure hunters in real life don't risk life and limb just so they can find items they can never use or sell.Even us solo players have a desire to better our toons-why should the option of using crafting, harvesting..to build up a good amount of money to be able to purchase the items we are not able to gain in other ways?</blockquote>I am not saying whether this is right or wrong BUT this game is not really designed to be a solo game. If you look at the benefits of being in a guild, creating a guild hall for its amenities, the bonuses on AA for mentoring the idea that certain gear can only be achieved via grouping is logical. The game is an MMO and is designed to encourage people to work in a coopertive fashion. Does this mean at end game soloers suffer, whatever reason they may be soloing? Yep, but SOE probably says "we make games for people that want to play by themselves, this game is about those who want to play with others."Remember in the genre of High fantasy when people go to slay the dragon they are either doing it because "he has the sword of my ancestors in his hoarde of treasure and I am destined to wield it" OR th King sent you to slay the beast for a reward for yourself. The heroes didn't say "hey lets go slay the dragon and then look for an antiquities dealer to sell these ancient and nigh god like magical items."

Rahatmattata

02-08-2009, 01:49 AM

Mastercrafted gear isn't even needed. With a good feel for a class, fully common crafted, and apprentice 4s, I can kill white - lite yellow solo mobs all day long.But, I do think the no-trade tag is abused. For instance, why have level 10 robe from a DLW quest no-trade? Can't have that little gem floating around the broker destroying the economy eh?I think KoS had a good balance of tradable vs no-trade. Some games like FFXI, not only is much of the loot (until endgame at least) tradeable, but you can re-sell it when you're done using it which is nice. Although the gear stays in the economy indefinately until it's destroyed or vendored.

Noaani

02-08-2009, 05:53 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am not saying whether this is right or wrong BUT this game is not really designed to be a solo game.</blockquote>Solo players would not be the major concern to me if I were making decisions on implementing tradeable fabled loot or not. While I would not want to see all instance loot (heroic or epic) be made tradeable, adding in a few pieces that are would not hurt anyone.Create 9 items (3 each for TotMC, YIS and PotAO) of fabled loot that is able to be traded, and aim the quality of it to be on par with heroic fabled/raid trash drops. Give them ~15% chance to drop from any name that does not drop a pattern, and ~5% chance of dropping from a name that also drops patterns. The only real issue is that because these items are lower quality, they would need to be added to the chest, rather than dropping instead of existing loot.The other option is to simply remove the no-trade flag from existing trash drops.

GangleG

02-08-2009, 01:43 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solo players would not be the major concern to me if I were making decisions on implementing tradeable fabled loot or not. While I would not want to see all instance loot (heroic or epic) be made tradeable, adding in a few pieces that are would not hurt anyone.Create 9 items (3 each for TotMC, YIS and PotAO) of fabled loot that is able to be traded, and aim the quality of it to be on par with heroic fabled/raid trash drops. Give them ~15% chance to drop from any name that does not drop a pattern, and ~5% chance of dropping from a name that also drops patterns. The only real issue is that because these items are lower quality, they would need to be added to the chest, rather than dropping instead of existing loot.The other option is to simply remove the no-trade flag from existing trash drops.</blockquote>Or how about we just keep it the way it is.

revren

02-08-2009, 02:15 PM

Hey Hey Is there even any good tradable legendary gear ? Why is it that all of these post have to go to the solo vs raider. As a a player that enjoy's solo group and raid parts of the game, i think it would be nice to have items on the broker worth buying. Just becouse it is fun to look at the broker and to see whats for sale. I would say take off the no-trade tag off most gear, let the market sort it self out. I have been doing lower Tier raids for AA, and it is surprising how much gear that drops is tradable , while i did not play pre-EoF , i am sure that all the gear was game destroying for most of the players.... Here is an idea folks instaed of blasting people play style or if they raid / group regularly you concentrate of playing your game, Unless this [Removed for Content] contest is what ,at heart, is the game is for you.Welcome HomeRev

Grong

02-08-2009, 04:25 PM

<cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey Hey Is there even any good tradable legendary gear ? Why is it that all of these post have to go to the solo vs raider. As a a player that enjoy's solo group and raid parts of the game, i think it would be nice to have items on the broker worth buying. Just becouse it is fun to look at the broker and to see whats for sale. I would say take off the no-trade tag off most gear, let the market sort it self out. I have been doing lower Tier raids for AA, and it is surprising how much gear that drops is tradable , while i did not play pre-EoF , i am sure that all the gear was game destroying for most of the players.... Here is an idea folks instaed of blasting people play style or if they raid / group regularly you concentrate of playing your game, Unless this [Removed for Content] contest is what ,at heart, is the game is for you.Welcome HomeRev</blockquote>Nice post Rev--thanks. I myslef want to take nothing away from those able to group or raid-just think having "some" items, available on the broker, would be nice for us solo players to aspire to own.

Sandain666

02-08-2009, 05:52 PM

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Could you enlighten me as to the reason why it is No-trade.Thanks</blockquote>Thus far. No dev from SOE has gone on the record as to why this has been done. Everything else is just speculationSandain

Xil

02-08-2009, 06:24 PM

It's pretty simple to see why they did it.But in practical application it doesn't work. As long as you can sell loot rights all those no trade items are still tradeable and can still be used to twink alts and sell to solo players.Verant had the right idea in early Everquest. If you have to quest to get the best items. You have to play the game to get the best items.No one ever shoulda moved away from that model. Both from the players perspective and the designer's perspective it was the most effective solution. Forced questing to attain progression gear protected player achievment and at the same time forced players to play the game.I mean you may be able to buy mythical updates but you are still technically forced to play the game to get them. You can't just hit 80 and buy a mythical you have to go through your epic timeline first.Right now there is almost nothing in the game you can't buy with plat. For all intents and purposes there's no reason it shouldn't all be tradeable and broker fodder.The model I'd like to see is instead of gear drops from Avatars and top tier raid mobs they drop crafting materials and quests are given to gain temporary recipies players can use in the commission system. That way the best gear in the game requires raiding, questing, and crafting.Then you can just make all the other crap tradable and forget about all the no drop no trade BS.Why Ever"quest" turned into Ever"geargrind" is beyond me but it never should have happened...

revren

02-08-2009, 07:39 PM

Hey HeyWhile i do not allway's agree with MR. Lord British , and this may see ma bit off topic , it may apply here. This is a snipit for man interview he did a while backAs many kudos as I would like to give World of Warcraft, it’s basically a remake of EverQuest, just incredibly polished and refined.There are harbingers of failure in that model. Everyone in these games is obsessed with the concept of how much damage-per-second they are inflicting and maximizing their D.P.S. When you do that, you are no longer playing a role; you are playing an inventory-management game.<a href="http://www.totalmmo.com/post/3780/wow-it-s-basically-a-remake-of-everquest-lord-british" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.totalmmo.com/post/3780/w...st-lord-british</a>People get angry when the see people getting stuff that they have not "earned" what ever that means. I think that if you legitly take the time to make plat, either threw harvesting , questing , or Tradeskilling you have earned what ever it is that you have bought. <RMT of Plat is a diffrent story , and not one that i would like to get into>. Welcome HomeRev

Gisallo

02-08-2009, 08:31 PM

<cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote> Is there even any good tradable legendary gear ? Why is it that all of these post have to go to the solo vs raider. </blockquote>Well yeah there is some good tradeable legendary. Fire Fury leggings come to mind. As for your comment about solo vs. raider. I am not even talking raiding however the OP did say "I am not able to group...". This means he is playing solo so it rears its ugly head. Look at the game though and how they are organized. Part of the basis of all of these games is cost/benefit analysis. X amount of difficulty gives Y amount of reward. Some people just want to log in and do whatever. That is certainly a valid way to play BUT to expect the same level of reward that other other people get for learning classes, getting repair bills while they experiment in the newest instance or raid zone trying to learn the strat I think is not right. I am middle of the road. I learn the classes I chose to play but am limited in the gear I will see because I don't raid multiple times a week, but I do like running instances. Heck I acknowledge that since I will likely not get VP fabled out that I will may NEVER see the inside of a TSO raid zone, and thus that gear until, after they raise the level cap. To think anything else would be like me complaining that I am not getting paid as much in RL with my BA as the guy with that has his PHD.

Lethe5683

02-08-2009, 08:44 PM

<cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey Hey Is there even any good tradable legendary gear ?</blockquote>A few of the wrist items from sebilis. "Hardened clay bracelet", "Pickling Wristband". Also an earring from chardock, "Incarnadine earring" Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

revren

02-08-2009, 09:31 PM

Hey HeyThere are some nice items from RoK but none from TSOAnd btw, if you save up long enogh you can drive the car, that the guy with the PH.D hasWelcome HomeRev

Lethe5683

02-08-2009, 09:32 PM

<cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey HeyThere are some nice items from RoK but none from TSOWelcome HomeRev</blockquote>Yeah most of the tso legendary stuff is <= MC.

Gisallo

02-08-2009, 10:13 PM

<cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey HeyThere are some nice items from RoK but none from TSOAnd btw, if you save up long enogh you can drive the car, that the guy with the PH.D hasWelcome HomeRev</blockquote>If you say so. Okay let me make it more obvious me with my BA being upset that I don't make as money as Bill Gates.I am NOT syaing that there shouldn't be some better tradeable items, I simply think that making the fabled stuff tradeable is not correct. If they made it so everyone could get the same gear why bother trying to run the instances over and over again trying to get item A to drop. The fact that you are willing to bang your head against that wall should have a greater reward than someone who just runs around ahrvesting rares all day or whatever to make plat. Just like I do not expect to get the earring of the solstice until I do the epic crafting quest line others should not expect to be able to get items until they go into the instances where they drop.

Lethe5683

02-08-2009, 10:18 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey HeyThere are some nice items from RoK but none from TSOAnd btw, if you save up long enogh you can drive the car, that the guy with the PH.D hasWelcome HomeRev</blockquote>If you say so. Okay let me make it more obvious me with my BA being upset that I don't make as money as Bill Gates.I am NOT syaing that there shouldn't be some better tradeable items, I simply think that making the fabled stuff tradeable is not correct. If they made it so everyone could get the same gear why bother trying to run the instances over and over again trying to get item A to drop. The fact that you are willing to bang your head against that wall should have a greater reward than someone who just runs around ahrvesting rares all day or whatever to make plat. Just like I do not expect to get the earring of the solstice until I do the epic crafting quest line others should not expect to be able to get items until they go into the instances where they drop.</blockquote>Earring of the solstice is a quest reward not a drop. Quest rewards should be no-trade but all drops should be tradeable. You could do an instance once and get the item you want or do it 100 times and still not get it. Being able to trade them would help ease the problems of a stupid RNG and get rid of an unnecissary timesink. As for harvesting rares to buy equipment... any good equipment drops will probably sell for a good deal of money and harvesting rares to buy them would be incredibly time consuming.

Grong

02-08-2009, 10:34 PM

I can spend 100 Plat and pay it to a raid guild and get the best weapon in the game.I can watch the chat channel and buy loot rights to a fabled item.I am sure the finder of that fabled item would much rather to be able to spend his/her time further adventuring than waiting in a chat channel for someone to respond to the message and then wait for them to arrive at the chest. What is the difference in just allowing them to loot the item and sell it on the broker. They benefit by earning money for the item they discovered and people like me benefit by being able to upgrade our gear with Plat we have spen quite a bit of time acquiring.Is it harder to get a group of 5 other players and dungeon crawl to find this loot-or spending numerous hours harvesting, gatering shineys, crafting, completing quests...?I don't think any one or the other is harder-just different means to the same end.

Lethe5683

02-08-2009, 10:38 PM

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can spend 100 Plat and pay it to a raid guild and get the best weapon in the game.I can watch the chat channel and buy loot rights to a fabled item.I am sure the finder of that fabled item would much rather to be able to spend his/her time further adventuring than waiting in a chat channel for someone to respond to the message and then wait for them to arrive at the chest. What is the difference in just allowing them to loot the item and sell it on the broker. They benefit by earning money for the item they discovered and people like me benefit by being able to upgrade our gear with Plat we have spen quite a bit of time acquiring.Is it harder to get a group of 5 other players and dungeon crawl to find this loot-or spending numerous hours harvesting, gatering shineys, crafting, completing quests...?I don't think any one or the other is harder-just different means to the same end.</blockquote>QFE

Gisallo

02-08-2009, 11:26 PM

Well one of the things I think that makes me shake my head about this is that most people say "I don't expect Fabled tradeable to be as good as No Trade fabled." You know what thats stuff is called? Legendary. You know how hard it is to get legendary items? Not at all. These arguments are never about the quality of the items (because most people with common sense realize that everyone should NOT be able to get the same quaility items) its about tag envy and thats just well....sad.

Lethe5683

02-08-2009, 11:50 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well one of the things I think that makes me shake my head about this is that most people say "I don't expect Fabled tradeable to be as good as No Trade fabled." You know what thats stuff is called? Legendary. You know how hard it is to get legendary items? Not at all. These arguments are never about the quality of the items (because most people with common sense realize that everyone should NOT be able to get the same quaility items) its about tag envy and thats just well....sad.</blockquote>Tag envy is irrellivent to this. The point is the amoutn of no-trade stuff is rediculous when most of it should be tradeable.

Tehom

02-09-2009, 04:35 AM

<cite>Xil wrote:</cite><blockquote>Verant had the right idea in early Everquest. If you have to quest to get the best items. You have to play the game to get the best items.</blockquote>Almost all the raid drops in original Everquest started out as tradeable, so that's not very accurate. It was a different situation though; without instancing, there was very much a rigid enforcement on scarcity, and players competed (often extremely viciously) for targets.There's a stronger argument for no-trade on high end items with instancing since there's almost no control over the rate at which items enter the world. I do, however, believe that a lot of raid drops should be tradeable, particularly weaker ones like trash drops.

Griffildur

02-09-2009, 06:30 AM

I quite like the fact that the fabled items are no trade. It kills the bloody plat farmers right where it hurts more. Plat can still be used for masters, shinies etc, just not for drops and like it or not , it keeps the dreaded farmers away.On the other hand, yes , players figured out how to sell loot rights. That's fine for some areas but good luck doing that in areas that require access , like VP. I've never used the sell rights option so not sure if it actually sets the lockout timer, but I hope it does .I have no problem with having to run an instance a gazillion time to get a specific drop. People complain this is a time sink ? You're playing a MMO dear, they are all a time sink. Sorry, but your sorry bum won't be able to run in fabled gear when all you do is pickup a few rare harvests here and there. You want the item ? Go get it where it drops ... simple as that.Also, new for you ... running a TSO instance for example ... any of them brings rare shinies, great equipment, masters, plat, shards. Not to mention the dreaded AA exp, we all so badly need because ... yes .... every time you turn in a TSO quest ... you get AA exp ... How about that ?Also it also allows you to bloody learn how to play your class for a change, rather that moaning all day that raider x has that item and you don't. T2 shard armour is good enough to allow you do any TSO instance , so you don't need raider equipment to do it. If some people can't raid. then that's fine, but when you come complaining that you can't group either than I have to ask, why are you still playing a MMO is you really are that time pressed ?I can see a few reasons for not grouping, one being, you absolutely suck at playing your class and people don't want to group with you. Yes this is what solo does to one. On the other hand if you make it clear from beginninf that you're still learning the class, many groups will take you on and not shout at you at all. Not everyone runs parses and not everyone expects you to do 8k dps if you're a wizzard. However, there is a progression, like it or not, and first , if you complete the quests in JW, you will have good enough equipment to start in the easier TSO zones. If you can't be bothered to follow the progression then don't complain. Use your plat to buy faction items, many of them are quite nice .Don't say faction takes too long to get, because in JW it takes maybe 6 hours to get 50k faction with everyone and get the hammer as well.I log in every evening for a few hours and all I see is people wanting to do TSO instances. Even those in full T2, because there still are items / masters / shinies they want. I think this is good for the game. Yes we will get sick of it after a while, but by then we'll probably have another expansion , hopefully harder and then what are you going to do ?Moan again ? Think about it. No one goes into a TSO instance to farm the drops just to sell them, which is good. Only people needing on items are people who can actually use them, which is good also.If the no-trade tag would be removed, the value of the drops would be 0, because many people would put them there and the prices would have to drop so that they can sell the items.This must be the reason behind all this moaning about too many no-trade items. Well, sorry, but I do not see why, someone who goes after rares in grey areas should have the same equipment, or better than someone who actually runs the instances, or raids. Yes go ahead and buy the sell rights, because quite a few ppl compete for them and they drive the price up not down. So yes the people who got the drop make a fair plat for their work and if you .... master rare gatherer want the item , then you'll have to fork out a lot of plat to be allowed to loot it. And this is fine with me too...

Gisallo

02-09-2009, 06:39 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well one of the things I think that makes me shake my head about this is that most people say "I don't expect Fabled tradeable to be as good as No Trade fabled." You know what thats stuff is called? Legendary. You know how hard it is to get legendary items? Not at all. These arguments are never about the quality of the items (because most people with common sense realize that everyone should NOT be able to get the same quaility items) its about tag envy and thats just well....sad.</blockquote>Tag envy is irrellivent to this. The point is the amoutn of no-trade stuff is rediculous when most of it should be tradeable.</blockquote>I have no problem with their being more tradeable Items. If you read what most of the people on this thread are saying is that they want tradeable FABLED items. They even say "well make them less powerful than no-trade fabled if you want". I think there should be more tradeable drops for the broker too. The way to do this is to increase the rate of legendary drops from contested names and more contested instances. If you are asking (as many here have) to basically make a legendary scaled drop but simply call it Fabled, thats tag envy. NBot saying this is what you are asking for Lethe but thats largely the tone of this thread.

Lethe5683

02-09-2009, 06:46 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well one of the things I think that makes me shake my head about this is that most people say "I don't expect Fabled tradeable to be as good as No Trade fabled." You know what thats stuff is called? Legendary. You know how hard it is to get legendary items? Not at all. These arguments are never about the quality of the items (because most people with common sense realize that everyone should NOT be able to get the same quaility items) its about tag envy and thats just well....sad.</blockquote>Tag envy is irrellivent to this. The point is the amoutn of no-trade stuff is rediculous when most of it should be tradeable.</blockquote>I have no problem with their being more tradeable Items. If you read what most of the people on this thread are saying is that they want tradeable FABLED items. They even say "well make them less powerful than no-trade fabled if you want". I think there should be more tradeable drops for the broker too. The way to do this is to increase the rate of legendary drops from contested names and more contested instances. If you are asking (as many here have) to basically make a legendary scaled drop but simply call it Fabled, thats tag envy. NBot saying this is what you are asking for Lethe but thats largely the tone of this thread.</blockquote>I don't care if an item is treasured.. if it has good stats Ill use it. The problem with TSO though is that all the tradeable loot I have seen is just very very bad legendary. All the usefull items are no-trade.

Gisallo

02-09-2009, 06:56 AM

Lethe, I agree with you the items that are tradeable are not even as good as the stuff you can get in RoK. This needs to be addressed. I was only addressing the OP and the main point of the post "T8 FABLED items on broker?"

Griffildur

02-09-2009, 07:41 AM

<cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Man, why does it seem most people have tag envy? I mean that's all it is. It was tagged fabled, doesn't mean all fabled items are good to use. I think I have 1 or 2 raid jewelery pieces on my defiler, the rest are legendary items(from collections for the most part). Something doesn't have to be tagged fabled for it to be good. The best players in the game don't always use all fabled, they use the best item for the slot they want.</blockquote>Now this is probably one of the very few posts in this whole thread that actually makes a bit of sense.Tag envy and desire to pay like 2 plat for a good , tso instance drop item. There's nothing else to it. No we don't have the life style to group ( rubbish if you ask me as every1 finds time to group every now and then otherwise they wouldn't play a MMO, right ? ), no we don't want to group, no we don't want to raid, but yes we want to buy the items we want off the broker. Well I am glad that answer to this is no. NO NO NO. Thisa will only bring the bloody farmers back so that you can buy something for a few plat. No, no-trade is good for this specific reason and many many others that just your pure envy to have something that is tagged Fablec , even if it's made worse than treasured. Cause this where this thread is going. little chldren crying out that my oh my, they don't have something that is tagged fabled even if it's rubbish.

Griffildur

02-09-2009, 07:47 AM

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can spend 100 Plat and pay it to a raid guild and get the best weapon in the game.I can watch the chat channel and buy loot rights to a fabled item.I am sure the finder of that fabled item would much rather to be able to spend his/her time further adventuring than waiting in a chat channel for someone to respond to the message and then wait for them to arrive at the chest. What is the difference in just allowing them to loot the item and sell it on the broker. They benefit by earning money for the item they discovered and people like me benefit by being able to upgrade our gear with Plat we have spen quite a bit of time acquiring.Is it harder to get a group of 5 other players and dungeon crawl to find this loot-or spending numerous hours harvesting, gatering shineys, crafting, completing quests...?I don't think any one or the other is harder-just different means to the same end.</blockquote>The point is that you so blinded by your greed that you don't see the basic point. If an item is on the broker, its value drops as soon as someone else adds it to the broker too. 2 months down the road you have 50 people trying to sell it for almost nothing.The mighty adventurer you mention does not want to see the good loot he got for doing a hard instance for 2 plat. Maybe he wants to wait 15 minutes and sell it for 90 plat ...If you want it to get it for 2 plat (free basically) then go run the instance where it drops. Don't try the oh my equipment is not good enough. That only means that you can't be bothered to do the myriad of quests / collections that give good enough equpment.

Wurm

02-09-2009, 07:57 AM

<cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can spend 100 Plat and pay it to a raid guild and get the best weapon in the game.I can watch the chat channel and buy loot rights to a fabled item.I am sure the finder of that fabled item would much rather to be able to spend his/her time further adventuring than waiting in a chat channel for someone to respond to the message and then wait for them to arrive at the chest. What is the difference in just allowing them to loot the item and sell it on the broker. They benefit by earning money for the item they discovered and people like me benefit by being able to upgrade our gear with Plat we have spen quite a bit of time acquiring.Is it harder to get a group of 5 other players and dungeon crawl to find this loot-or spending numerous hours harvesting, gatering shineys, crafting, completing quests...?I don't think any one or the other is harder-just different means to the same end.</blockquote>The point is that you so blinded by your greed that you don't see the basic point. If an item is on the broker, its value drops as soon as someone else adds it to the broker too. 2 months down the road you have 50 people trying to sell it for almost nothing.The mighty adventurer you mention does not want to see the good loot he got for doing a hard instance for 2 plat. Maybe he wants to wait 15 minutes and sell it for 90 plat ...If you want it to get it for 2 plat (free basically) then go run the instance where it drops. Don't try the oh my equipment is not good enough. That only means that you can't be bothered to do the myriad of quests / collections that give good enough equpment.</blockquote>Greed has nothing to do with this at all, and if the really good gear is only going for 2 plat on your server, PM me your server name so I can transfer...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />I don't want the best fabled on the broker, but it would be nice to at least see a few exciting items for sale once in a while, even good rare legendary would be enough, I've EARNED the plat I have in the bank, just give me something cool to blow it on once in a while.

revren

02-09-2009, 08:31 AM

<cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Man, why does it seem most people have tag envy? I mean that's all it is. It was tagged fabled, doesn't mean all fabled items are good to use. I think I have 1 or 2 raid jewelery pieces on my defiler, the rest are legendary items(from collections for the most part). Something doesn't have to be tagged fabled for it to be good. The best players in the game don't always use all fabled, they use the best item for the slot they want.</blockquote>Now this is probably one of the very few posts in this whole thread that actually makes a bit of sense.Tag envy and desire to pay like 2 plat for a good , tso instance drop item. There's nothing else to it. No we don't have the life style to group ( rubbish if you ask me as every1 finds time to group every now and then otherwise they wouldn't play a MMO, right ? ), no we don't want to group, no we don't want to raid, but yes we want to buy the items we want off the broker. Well I am glad that answer to this is no. NO NO NO. Thisa will only bring the bloody farmers back so that you can buy something for a few plat. No, no-trade is good for this specific reason and many many others that just your pure envy to have something that is tagged Fablec , even if it's made worse than treasured. Cause this where this thread is going. little chldren crying out that my oh my, they don't have something that is tagged fabled even if it's rubbish.</blockquote>Hey GiimbleI take it you do not rock the two fabled pieces of TSO set gear you linked me ;>However you are right some legendary > FabledWelcome HomeRev

Griffildur

02-09-2009, 09:47 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>Greed has nothing to do with this at all, and if the really good gear is only going for 2 plat on your server, PM me your server name so I can transfer...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />I don't want the best fabled on the broker, but it would be nice to at least see a few exciting items for sale once in a while, even good rare legendary would be enough, I've EARNED the plat I have in the bank, just give me something cool to blow it on once in a while.</blockquote>Masters and Collections,Those will eat everything you have and probably more.T2 set is legendary so go and get it . It's a very good armour and not that difficult to get.

Macross_JR

02-09-2009, 10:20 AM

<cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Man, why does it seem most people have tag envy? I mean that's all it is. It was tagged fabled, doesn't mean all fabled items are good to use. I think I have 1 or 2 raid jewelery pieces on my defiler, the rest are legendary items(from collections for the most part). Something doesn't have to be tagged fabled for it to be good. The best players in the game don't always use all fabled, they use the best item for the slot they want.</blockquote>Now this is probably one of the very few posts in this whole thread that actually makes a bit of sense.Tag envy and desire to pay like 2 plat for a good , tso instance drop item. There's nothing else to it. No we don't have the life style to group ( rubbish if you ask me as every1 finds time to group every now and then otherwise they wouldn't play a MMO, right ? ), no we don't want to group, no we don't want to raid, but yes we want to buy the items we want off the broker. Well I am glad that answer to this is no. NO NO NO. Thisa will only bring the bloody farmers back so that you can buy something for a few plat. No, no-trade is good for this specific reason and many many others that just your pure envy to have something that is tagged Fablec , even if it's made worse than treasured. Cause this where this thread is going. little chldren crying out that my oh my, they don't have something that is tagged fabled even if it's rubbish.</blockquote>Hey GiimbleI take it you do not rock the two fabled pieces of TSO set gear you linked me ;>However you are right some legendary > FabledWelcome HomeRev</blockquote>I do, but that wasn't the point of my post. My point was people see fabled and think it's better. If I there were other items for those slots that I got, I would use those and not the fabled items, simple as that. I also need those items to be a better raider, not a better solo'er. Solo'ing I use a whole different set of armor that better suits what I need for solo'ing. It still is tag envy. People want to say look at this fabled item I got, where I would rather say check out this awesome item I have that is better then that fabled item.

Faenril

02-09-2009, 10:46 AM

I can understand why good instance drops are no trade, though ironically ppl still sell them via loot rights anyway... That being said there is no reason for all the trash legendary drops to be no trade (and there are plenty). Another related issue is the lack of contested content in TSO: tradable contested loot works just fine, the problem is there is no contested dungeon to farm in TSO.

Noaani

02-09-2009, 10:55 AM

<cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite><a href="mailto:Gimbel@Permafrost">Gimbel@Permafrost</a> wrote:</cite><blockquote>Man, why does it seem most people have tag envy? I mean that's all it is. It was tagged fabled, doesn't mean all fabled items are good to use. I think I have 1 or 2 raid jewelery pieces on my defiler, the rest are legendary items(from collections for the most part). Something doesn't have to be tagged fabled for it to be good. The best players in the game don't always use all fabled, they use the best item for the slot they want.</blockquote>Now this is probably one of the very few posts in this whole thread that actually makes a bit of sense.</blockquote>While its true that a lot of player simply equip an item because it says its fabled, and they assume its good, imo the people that don't want to see tradeable fabled drops are guilty of an eqaully negitive feeling that I would like to dub "tag protection".As a raider, I don't give a [Removed for Content] who has what tags in their gear (with mythical being the exception, due more to the spam than the tag). What I care about is the item itself.Developers have already stated that removing the no-trade tag from items will require those items to be of a lesser quality, to which I say... go for it. If the item is similar to a raid drop, but not as good (under any circumstance), then I have no problems with it being able to be sold on the broker.If a tradeable item is somehow better than any no-trade item, then that item will obviously not be gettiing sold in a hurry.I like the idea of no-trade, but I would like it better if it actually meant something. The only T8 items that actually mean anything in game right now are those that drop from Trakanon, as it means that at least that character has cleared VP.

Wurm

02-09-2009, 11:22 AM

<cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>Greed has nothing to do with this at all, and if the really good gear is only going for 2 plat on your server, PM me your server name so I can transfer...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />I don't want the best fabled on the broker, but it would be nice to at least see a few exciting items for sale once in a while, even good rare legendary would be enough, I've EARNED the plat I have in the bank, just give me something cool to blow it on once in a while.</blockquote>Masters and Collections,Those will eat everything you have and probably more.T2 set is legendary so go and get it . It's a very good armour and not that difficult to get.</blockquote>Collections don't eat my plat, since I'm hard headed enough to farm my own shinies. Masters I don't need since all my spells are at least Adept III and I no longer raid. I am talking about how frigging BORING the broker has become.Back before DoF was released, AOD on Innothule would put up the Fabled items they didn't need for 1000 plat and you could send a tell to one of their officers and make an offer. If your offer was high enough you'd meet up with one of the officers and do a trade.Now when you search the broker its all trash except for a few good legendary items and those usually are priced so high that they stay on the broker forever or are reasonably priced and are snapped up as fast as they were posted.Leaving only the trash, hell I don't even go to the broker anymore except to grab some food or arrows now that I have all my current equipment adorned.Even if only to look at some item and say "[Removed for Content], I wish I had the plat!" the broker needs to be shaken up a bit.And you mentioned T2... yeah so now we farm shards instead of plat to get better equipment. Not that big of an improvement in my opinion.And another pet-peave of mine is thousands and thousands of frigging jewelry and armor rewards for quests, when is the last time that you've had a good weapon quest reward? That doesn't count Heritage or Signature quests? I can't remember the last one I've had... other than a kinda nice crushing weapon I received for turning in a stupid collection.Case in point, the starting area in TSO, within turning in 5 quests I had 3 sets of rings and 2 sets of earrings to choose from. 1 of which I am wearing, the rest I fed to Marr...Where are the better charms? *edit* One of the quest rewards from the Everfrost revamp is a lvl 65 charm that is a ton better than all the ROK charms, I was shocked to see it. And my lvl 80 toon is using it.Better cloaks? Better weapons? No, tons and tons of Jewelry, I'm so glad I didn't choose to be a Jeweler. I'd be pretty [Removed for Content] off by now.And when you do get a treasured armor item as a quest reward, its usually a wrist item and so crappy that you either vendor-trash it or feed it to your god.

RafaelSmith

02-09-2009, 12:29 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>Collections don't eat my plat, since I'm hard headed enough to farm my own shinies. Masters I don't need since all my spells are at least Adept III and I no longer raid.</blockquote>Why do you need Fabled gear then?

Vulkan_NTooki

02-09-2009, 12:32 PM

<cite>wullailhuit wrote:</cite><blockquote>Devs have stated , if they made a fabled item tradeable , they WOULD reduce it's stats in comparison to a fabled item that is No-Trade.So , say no to tradeable Fabled items.</blockquote>Umm.. of course it does.. if its using any type of item creation tool that is common in this industry it has points allocated to it to balance positives vs negatives.. Certain effects costs more points to put on the item and negative effects usually add points the same items.Hence adding a no_trade tag or LORE tag will give the item more points to distribute stats, and other goodies..However.. Lets say the no_trade tag gives an extra 5 points to spend for a good stat or ability.. then why not just remove the no_trade tag and add a total point for that tier/label by 5?That way you could still make the items as good.. but without the no_trade tag.. The Dev's response is based on the tools they have available as is.. not based on wether its possible to do or not..Unless of course their item creation tool sucks.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" />

Griffildur

02-09-2009, 12:51 PM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can understand why good instance drops are no trade, though ironically ppl still sell them via loot rights anyway... That being said there is no reason for all the trash legendary drops to be no trade (and there are plenty). Another related issue is the lack of contested content in TSO: tradable contested loot works just fine, the problem is there is no contested dungeon to farm in TSO.</blockquote>If you look up a few messages you'll see my post addressing loot rights as well. So stop trying to be ironic and read before you post if you're trying to add something usefull.

Griffildur

02-09-2009, 12:52 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>Collections don't eat my plat, since I'm hard headed enough to farm my own shinies. Masters I don't need since all my spells are at least Adept III and I no longer raid.</blockquote>Why do you need Fabled gear then?</blockquote>QFT !

Grong

02-09-2009, 02:02 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can spend 100 Plat and pay it to a raid guild and get the best weapon in the game.I can watch the chat channel and buy loot rights to a fabled item.I am sure the finder of that fabled item would much rather to be able to spend his/her time further adventuring than waiting in a chat channel for someone to respond to the message and then wait for them to arrive at the chest. What is the difference in just allowing them to loot the item and sell it on the broker. They benefit by earning money for the item they discovered and people like me benefit by being able to upgrade our gear with Plat we have spen quite a bit of time acquiring.Is it harder to get a group of 5 other players and dungeon crawl to find this loot-or spending numerous hours harvesting, gatering shineys, crafting, completing quests...?I don't think any one or the other is harder-just different means to the same end.</blockquote>The point is that you so blinded by your greed that you don't see the basic point. If an item is on the broker, its value drops as soon as someone else adds it to the broker too. 2 months down the road you have 50 people trying to sell it for almost nothing.The mighty adventurer you mention does not want to see the good loot he got for doing a hard instance for 2 plat. Maybe he wants to wait 15 minutes and sell it for 90 plat ...If you want it to get it for 2 plat (free basically) then go run the instance where it drops. Don't try the oh my equipment is not good enough. That only means that you can't be bothered to do the myriad of quests / collections that give good enough equpment.</blockquote>Greed has nothing to do with this at all, and if the really good gear is only going for 2 plat on your server, PM me your server name so I can transfer...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />I don't want the best fabled on the broker, but it would be nice to at least see a few exciting items for sale once in a while, even good rare legendary would be enough, I've EARNED the plat I have in the bank, just give me something cool to blow it on once in a while.</blockquote>Thank you Wurm for the reasonable post. Greed has nothing to do with it. If Handcrafted had better stats then fabled I'd be wearing all the Handcrafted I could buy or make.Again, for those who haven't read all the posts. I DON'T want access to the best gear in the game. I am saying there should be some gear that is currently no-trade changed so that people who acquire them can profit and those who can't can at least upgrade some of their gear with the money they earn by different means.

Wurm

02-09-2009, 02:18 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>Collections don't eat my plat, since I'm hard headed enough to farm my own shinies. Masters I don't need since all my spells are at least Adept III and I no longer raid.</blockquote>Why do you need Fabled gear then?</blockquote>I didn't say I did... Having some better than decent T8 Legendary on the broker would be nice though. Go to your broker, put in Legendary and level 72 to 80. Other than a few nice JEWELRY items *cough* your not going to find much to wet your appetite.

Wurm

02-09-2009, 02:27 PM

<cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>Collections don't eat my plat, since I'm hard headed enough to farm my own shinies. Masters I don't need since all my spells are at least Adept III and I no longer raid.</blockquote>Why do you need Fabled gear then?</blockquote>QFT !</blockquote>So it says you joined in 2007... is that the year you started playing EQ2? If so, you have basically had everything handed to you on a silver platter. So don't mind me when I don't take you too seriously when you start yelling about no one being allowed to buy decent items on the broker, you are too new to know better.

RafaelSmith

02-09-2009, 03:24 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>Collections don't eat my plat, since I'm hard headed enough to farm my own shinies. Masters I don't need since all my spells are at least Adept III and I no longer raid.</blockquote>Why do you need Fabled gear then?</blockquote>I didn't say I did... Having some better than decent T8 Legendary on the broker would be nice though. Go to your broker, put in Legendary and level 72 to 80. Other than a few nice JEWELRY items *cough* your not going to find much to wet your appetite.</blockquote>I am assumming you solo? because if you group there is huge number of "better than decent T8 legendary" to be had from grouping....not too mention the T2 shard gear which in most cases qualifies as better than decent legendary.So ..Via instances, players that only group have access to better gear that is needed/appropriate for grouping.Via soloing/crafting, soloers have access to better gear that is needed/appropriate for future soloing. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Via raiding, raiders have access to better gear that is needed/appropriate for future raiding.Why exactly do we need the better gear on the brokers if there is already means for every playstyle to get updrades appropriate for their playstyle?

Wurm

02-09-2009, 03:44 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>Collections don't eat my plat, since I'm hard headed enough to farm my own shinies. Masters I don't need since all my spells are at least Adept III and I no longer raid.</blockquote>Why do you need Fabled gear then?</blockquote>I didn't say I did... Having some better than decent T8 Legendary on the broker would be nice though. Go to your broker, put in Legendary and level 72 to 80. Other than a few nice JEWELRY items *cough* your not going to find much to wet your appetite.</blockquote>I am assumming you solo? because if you group there is huge number of "better than decent T8 legendary" to be had from grouping....not too mention the T2 shard gear which in most cases qualifies as better than decent legendary.So ..Via instances, players that only group have access to better gear that is needed/appropriate for grouping.Via soloing/crafting, soloers have access to better gear that is needed/appropriate for future soloing. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Via raiding, raiders have access to better gear that is needed/appropriate for future raiding.Why exactly do we need the better gear on the brokers if there is already means for every playstyle to get updrades appropriate for their playstyle?</blockquote>I guess you over read about the broker being boring. Why even have the broker at all if all you can buy is, trash, collection items and mastercrafted?

revren

02-09-2009, 03:47 PM

Hey HeyWhy not if you guys do not have tag envy , then why do you care ?? Over and over you accuse the people who want tradable items of having tag envy , it seems to me that you are the ones who care. I think you guys judge a player too much by his gear. I personally judge a player buy how much they make me laugh in vent.. But to each his own ;>Welcome HomeRev

RafaelSmith

02-09-2009, 05:49 PM

You can call it tag envy if you want but the problem is as soon as you start having more and more Fabled loot as tradable and on the broker...the less and less the Fabled tag has any meaning or significance.SOE will do the usual itemization balance and what we will have is mid-legendary quality items labled as Fabled.

acctlc

02-09-2009, 06:46 PM

I'll tell you why so much instance loot should *stay* no-trade whether it be legendary or fabled, but especially fabled. Because when I go out farming an instance zone for that stupidly rare drop and it finally does drop, I don't want some nitwit that can wear rolling need just because they see its fabled and tradeable and see dollarsigns. 20 mins after group ends I see the item I've spent numerous hours farming for on broker for 500 plat by the same guy that rolled that he needed it. The no-trade tag has ended this tactic, and if someone honestly doesn't need a nice drop, loot rights are still an option.As for raid gear, well thats a little different because raids are run differently than groups. Would I care if raid gear was tradeable? Probably not, just because i trust my raid leader to get the item to who it should go to before brokering ever enters the equation. However as it is now I'm still seeing *tons* of loot right options going out on raid patterns that anyone with 3-5 void shards can get made. This will continue until those patterns go smart and for some guilds..even after then. I even saw a piece of Tangrin loot up for grabs the other day, so the avenues to get those drops are plentiful imho....but you're going to pay through the nose to get them, as it should be.Those that whine that this gear isn't being put on broker are likely the bargain basement types. The broker is a thriftstore and you're hoping to find a deal right when the item is listed? Hoping someone throws up a piece for less than its worth perhaps? Just a thought, but I think the loot rights is a fairer way to sell the nicer pieces. Everyone on channel knows that the item is being sold when it drops and have a chance to pay what *they* think its worth.

Gisallo

02-09-2009, 07:16 PM

<cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey HeyWhy not if you guys do not have tag envy , then why do you care ?? Over and over you accuse the people who want tradable items of having tag envy , it seems to me that you are the ones who care. I think you guys judge a player too much by his gear. I personally judge a player buy how much they make me laugh in vent.. But to each his own ;>Welcome HomeRev</blockquote>Because some of us think logically? Right now I am looking at my Thugga piece and am crunching numbers to see if a fabled piece with + 75 heal on it is better than a Legendary +50 with heal crit. I lose some on the stats two but its the blues I am concerned about in that slot.That being said many of the people in this post aren't saying "put better tradeable items on the broker", they are saying "put fabled on the broker", even when there are times that fabled does not mean better. If it is not simply to have the tag then why is it necessary to even mention fabled?So lets for the sake of argument say we just forget the word fabled keeps getting bandied about and say people just want better tradeable items regardless of the tag. Is there a problem with SOME better stuff being on the broker? No not in theory. The larger issue though is how do you do this without diluteing one of the main carrots to group, learn to fit your class into group dynamics and do progressively harder instances if you do make these items tradeable? That is a very tenuous balance to strike. The whole purose of many of those items to be no trade is to encourage, perhaps even force grouping, this game is an MMO after all. I guess this is my main issue. I have 2 whole arguably good fabled pieces. One is the Thugga band (which will be outgrown shortly I think) and the other is Gift to the Queen. I worked my butt off farming for the Gift because I know that is a good heal item for lots of reasons. Now many of the people in this thread (not all but many) would say "I should be able to buy that since I have the plat." Well this would dilute all of the things I did to get it. Make deals for an instance run "help me get that drop and I will heal all of your Fabled Epic Instances", "druid if you do not need on that I will not need on this". Heck simply just learning how to do my job as a healer, tank or ranger because to be an honest, a monkey can solo a lvl 80 and make plat in this game. People who say it takes a lot of work to make plat need to either learn the game better or are being disingenuous. I NEVER have less that 40-50 plat on any of my characters (3 level 80's). I don't craft and rarely sell harvests (I give them all to the guild for other guildies to use for free). Its all from quest rewards, selling drops on the broker or even to the vendor, selling shinies and L&L pieces etc. If I was to craft and sell my rares I would be sitting on hundreds of Plat without question, so to say getting plat equals the same amount of time and effort (in games like this time is a clear part of the effort calculus) is simply not true.Again this is NOT to say that an increase in the number of decent drop items on the broker would be bad. Again though many people are saying they want better items here. What some are really asking for is that ALL items be sold on the broker and that would destroy one of the driving forces behind the theory of the game, grouping within the larger community.

Xil

02-09-2009, 07:34 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey HeyWhy not if you guys do not have tag envy , then why do you care ?? Over and over you accuse the people who want tradable items of having tag envy , it seems to me that you are the ones who care. I think you guys judge a player too much by his gear. I personally judge a player buy how much they make me laugh in vent.. But to each his own ;>Welcome HomeRev</blockquote>Because some of us think logically? Right now I am looking at my Thugga piece and am crunching numbers to see if a fabled piece with + 75 heal on it is better than a Legendary +50 with heal crit. I lose some on the stats two but its the blues I am concerned about in that slot.That being said many of the people in this post aren't saying "put better tradeable items on the broker", they are saying "put fabled on the broker", even when there are times that fabled does not mean better. If it is not simply to have the tag then why is it necessary to even mention fabled?So lets for the sake of argument say we just forget the word fabled keeps getting bandied about and say people just want better tradeable items regardless of the tag. Is there a problem with SOME better stuff being on the broker? No not in theory. The larger issue though is how do you do this without diluteing one of the main carrots to group, learn to fit your class into group dynamics and do progressively harder instances if you do make these items tradeable? That is a very tenuous balance to strike. The whole purose of many of those items to be no trade is to encourage, perhaps even force grouping, this game is an MMO after all. I guess this is my main issue. I have 2 whole arguably good fabled pieces. One is the Thugga band (which will be outgrown shortly I think) and the other is Gift to the Queen. I worked my butt off farming for the Gift because I know that is a good heal item for lots of reasons. Now many of the people in this thread (not all but many) would say "I should be able to buy that since I have the plat." Well this would dilute all of the things I did to get it. Make deals for an instance run "help me get that drop and I will heal all of your Fabled Epic Instances", "druid if you do not need on that I will not need on this", "Hey guys I'll all owe you one if you come to Loping and help me Kill Pumpkin Head". Heck simply just learning how to do my job as a healer, tank or ranger because to be an honest, a monkey can solo a lvl 80 and make plat in this game. People who say it takes a lot of work to make plat need to either learn the game better or come clear an admit that they are being disingenuous. I NEVER have less that 40-50 plat on any of my characters (3 level 80's). I don't craft and rarely sell harvests (I give them all to the guild for other guildies to use for free). Its all from quest rewards, selling drops on the broker or even to the vendor, selling shinies and L&L pieces etc. If I was to craft and sell my rares I would be sitting on hundreds of Plat without question so to say getting plat equals the same amount of time and effort (in games like this time is a clear part of the effort calculus) is simply not true. </blockquote>Using loot to force grouping... Why not make grouping fun instead and just let the loot be a side-effect of having fun?

Queen Alexandria

02-09-2009, 07:53 PM

Gisallo

02-09-2009, 08:22 PM

<cite>Xil wrote:</cite><blockquote>Using loot to force grouping... Why not make grouping fun instead and just let the loot be a side-effect of having fun?</blockquote>Well I think it is a side effect and that grouping is fun. Let me tell you my story (I know I hear the sighs already). I started as a Ranger. I LOVED soloing. The challenge of kiting a mob, even heroic ones is VERY fun. Every now and then I joined groups and really didn't have fun. I kept seeing gear popping up in level chat though and said "how do I get that?" to myself. I then suddenly realized something, the reason I was not having fun in groups was because I had not learned how to group. I did not know how to pick groups and how to function within them. The gear though, and wanting to have it, was the carrot though that had me keep trying until I realized what my problem was. Thats why I try to avoid the word force and use encourage. I also try to avoid force because If you only want to solo guess what? You don't need better than mastercrafted, the only reason to get the gear is so you can say "lookie what I got!!!". To do the harder instances though you have to go through the progression and get the better gear, same with raiding. The game has tiers and gear to match those tiers. To say I want the fabled drop from Atrebe's Korsha is (imho) the same as a level 60 player saying they want to wear level 72 mastercrafted. Wrong job, wrong tier. Again this is NOT to say there shouldn't be some better tradeable gear BUT to achieve this doesn't mean you need to make drops in instances tradeable. You can tweek the gear and drop rate of contested names. Beyond that maybe add another contested instance. Beyond that though I don't think there is much you can or SHOULD do. See above about tiered gear and its place as to why

Mary the Prophetess

02-09-2009, 08:49 PM

Well, I hesitate to bring it up, but no one seems to have brought PvP into this discussion. I don't think it's a matter of 'tag envy' there; it's a matter of survival.If anything solo players, (whether they solo by choice or out of necessity), do not need better gear *less* than group/raid players, they probably need it *more*!Talk amongst yourselves.

Gisallo

02-09-2009, 08:54 PM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, I hesitate to bring it up, but no one seems to have brought PvP into this discussion. I don't think it's a matter of 'tag envy' there; it's a matter of survival.If anything solo players, (whether they solo by choice or out of necessity), do not need better gear *less* than group/raid players, they probably need it *more*!Talk amongst yourselves.</blockquote>I hate to say this but PvP is the square peg to the round hole that is Everquest 2. EQ2 was not designed to be a PvP game and they tried to add PvP because of pressure from other games. SOE has tried to deal with this by making PvP only gear and other things but due to the core rules of the game AND the vast minority that PvP players are in this game, PvP is almost always going to be an after thought AND if there is a choice between inconvenienceing PvE vs PvP PvP will almost always lose. Its why I deleted my PvP character and now have WAR account as well.

revren

02-10-2009, 12:13 AM

Hey Hey First off making items tradable does not mean you can not go and farm them , I am sure if you wanted to you could go farm all of your masters if you wanted to , no one is gonna stop you. The actually achievement is not in the item but how you got it. If you are proud that you farmed , then thats great and nothing i could ever sell would thake that great feeling of poping a metal cheast open. If that is your real joy , thne selling the same item should take nothing away from your achievement, unless you care when people inspect you?? Maybe to some people getting 1k plat is a big deal , and maybe to others it is being the first on there server. Hell just do what you like , and let other do what they like, Since you do not PvP it does not matter what the other guy is wearing...Welcome HomeRev

Gisallo

02-10-2009, 01:01 AM

<cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey Hey First off making items tradable does not mean you can not go and farm them , I am sure if you wanted to you could go farm all of your masters if you wanted to , no one is gonna stop you. The actually achievement is not in the item but how you got it. If you are proud that you farmed , then thats great and nothing i could ever sell would thake that great feeling of poping a metal cheast open. If that is your real joy , thne selling the same item should take nothing away from your achievement, unless you care when people inspect you?? Maybe to some people getting 1k plat is a big deal , and maybe to others it is being the first on there server. Hell just do what you like , and let other do what they like, Since you do not PvP it does not matter what the other guy is wearing...Welcome HomeRev</blockquote>You'r taking it out of context my friend. The purpose of creating the "farming" mechanic (to my mind) is to deal with a number of issues, it is NOT to simply empowered farming itself. The reason for this mechanic is to 1) to encourage grouping and keep these groups moving through progressively more challenging content (thus creating the time sink). 2) to make it possible for the people in category 1 to continue the progression. 3) to give crafters something to sell. Imagine what would hppen to the crafting market if all of the sudden there were LOTS of items that were better than Mastercrafted easily obtained and placed on the broker. 4) To have the questing (the raison detre of this game) maintain its paramount position in the scheme of the game.This game has never and will never be about the game allowing people to simply buy things outside of the context of the quest. Yes there will be people who use the mechanics of the game to sell loot rights but no game can be immune from the manipulation of its players. This does NOT mean though that the game needs to take part or create mechanisms to streamline this manipulation in response.

Wurm

02-10-2009, 03:46 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey HeyFirst off making items tradable does not mean you can not go and farm them , I am sure if you wanted to you could go farm all of your masters if you wanted to , no one is gonna stop you. The actually achievement is not in the item but how you got it. If you are proud that you farmed , then thats great and nothing i could ever sell would thake that great feeling of poping a metal cheast open. If that is your real joy , thne selling the same item should take nothing away from your achievement, unless you care when people inspect you?? Maybe to some people getting 1k plat is a big deal , and maybe to others it is being the first on there server. Hell just do what you like , and let other do what they like, Since you do not PvP it does not matter what the other guy is wearing...Welcome HomeRev</blockquote>You'r taking it out of context my friend. The purpose of creating the "farming" mechanic (to my mind) is to deal with a number of issues, it is NOT to simply empowered farming itself. The reason for this mechanic is to 1) to encourage grouping and keep these groups moving through progressively more challenging content (thus creating the time sink). 2) to make it possible for the people in category 1 to continue the progression. 3) to give crafters something to sell. Imagine what would hppen to the crafting market if all of the sudden there were LOTS of items that were better than Mastercrafted easily obtained and placed on the broker. 4) To have the questing (the raison detre of this game) maintain its paramount position in the scheme of the game.This game has never and will never be about the game allowing people to simply buy things outside of the context of the quest. Yes there will be people who use the mechanics of the game to sell loot rights but no game can be immune from the manipulation of its players. This does NOT mean though that the game needs to take part or create mechanisms to streamline this manipulation in response.</blockquote>1) Thats already happened... it is called Station Cash.2) The crafters are already screwed for the most part... at least the Jewelers are lolAnd to answer the person a few posts up... "I had to farm an instance 100+ times to get a piece I wanted, and now someone is wearing the same item that they bought!" (THE HORROR!!!!)a) Then it wasn't all that or the other person wouldn't have sold itb) 100+ times? Boy you are unlucky <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />c) How in the hell would you even know that they bought it?

Gisallo

02-10-2009, 04:54 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>1) Thats already happened... it is called Station Cash.2) The crafters are already screwed for the most part... at least the Jewelers are lolAnd to answer the person a few posts up... "I had to farm an instance 100+ times to get a piece I wanted, and now someone is wearing the same item that they bought!" (THE HORROR!!!!)a) Then it wasn't all that or the other person wouldn't have sold itb) 100+ times? Boy you are unlucky <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />c) How in the hell would you even know that they bought it?</blockquote>First let me congradulate you on trying to turn a thread completely unrealted to station cash into a similar thread since its clear no one who is NOT on the SOE is evil kick is reading it anymore <sarcasm off>Also as for crafters, most crafters are not dead, at least on my server. One guild mate still sells rings like hot cakes and while lower tier crafters are largely crafting just to level once you hit tier 7 there is still profit to be made. heck the GL of another Guild I am in makes mad plat selling the "raid" food and drink.Also nice job of ignoring the other elements. ITS NOT about the gear on its own. Its about the gear being a mechanism to get players to group and do the instance progression. If you were to make the gear that is part of the progression tradeable, the reason for participating in the progression would be gone. Basically what they have done is taken the RoK raid progression (Tier 1-4/5) and translated it into Instance progression. Start at tier 1 get geared up with stuff that will make 2 easier. Clear 2 and get gear that makes tier 3 eaiser and so on. A) It is a reward for taking part in the progression and B) if you do not want to be part of the progression you do not need the gear anyway.Thats not to say TSO couldn't use a Chardok or a Sebs to get some tradeable gear out there, or that the drop rates on contested nameds in the Moors should not be increased BUT even then you would likely have people saying "QQ the shield I got out of instance X is not as good as the one that drops in Fabled Korsha" even if its better than Mastercrafted or a drop or quested shield from RoK. DUH Korsha is one of the harder instances in terms of progression hence better loot. To get people to do it you need a carrot. The carrot is the loot. You want the loot you have to do the instance. Hence get into the grind, become part of the time sync and keep paying your 14.99 a month. Seems pretty logical to me. To continue the logic, if you are here just to solo eventually you will run out of solo content as you level and then be bored. All the gear in the world won't change that. If you are here just to RP or for other less mechanically based things it doesn't matter if you are wearing mastercrafted from a tier behind. So is there a practical and logical reason beyond "I just want it <shrug>" for someone in these categories to want the better gear? Answer: no.

Faenril

02-10-2009, 05:59 AM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, I hesitate to bring it up, but no one seems to have brought PvP into this discussion. I don't think it's a matter of 'tag envy' there; it's a matter of survival.If anything solo players, (whether they solo by choice or out of necessity), do not need better gear *less* than group/raid players, they probably need it *more*!Talk amongst yourselves.</blockquote>Your concern is legitimate, but should solo players survivability on pvp servers define the reward system in EQ2 ?If solo players want fabled gear on pvp they have the option to go for the pvp gear.It's long, hard to get, but it's 100% soloable <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Faenril

02-10-2009, 06:15 AM

<cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can understand why good instance drops are no trade, though ironically ppl still sell them via loot rights anyway... That being said there is no reason for all the trash legendary drops to be no trade (and there are plenty). Another related issue is the lack of contested content in TSO: tradable contested loot works just fine, the problem is there is no contested dungeon to farm in TSO.</blockquote>If you look up a few messages you'll see my post addressing loot rights as well. So stop trying to be ironic and read before you post if you're trying to add something usefull.</blockquote>Hu why the hate ? I read your post let's see the part about looting rights .... Oh yeah there are access quests to instances and that prevent buying loots of course ....Tell me again how many T8 instances have access requirements ? There is VP ... and ... mmmh ... VP ? Oh there is Trakkanon too but it's in VP anyway and probably not many guilds sell Trakkanon loot yet <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So that leaves us with 0 group instance, and 2 raid instances (1 inside the other).So let me tell you what I mean with irony: SOE put a no trade tag on items, but at the same time SOE does nothing to prevent ppl from buying loots. So the loot could as well be tradable and put on broker, with the same net result. Maybe it's not irony it's just hyppocracy instead.If they really didn't want us to buy loot, they would put access requirements everywhere, make all uber loot quested, or tag the chest and make it only lootable by group members who killed the mob. But they don't do any of that, so I guess they are fine with ppl buying loot. Not a big deal I'm fine with it too, but please don't act like "no trade" prevents ppl from buying loot from mobs they didn't kill, because it does not...Everyday I see someone spamming the channels with an offer because he wants to buy a fabled drop from Najena. I'd rather let him browse the broker for that item, instead of spamming the chat.Oh, and about the usefullness of my post ... Don't you think 1 contested dungeon in TSO would be "useful" ?

Wurm

02-10-2009, 07:10 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite>"Everyday I see someone spamming the channels with an offer because he wants to buy a fabled drop from Najena. I'd rather let him browse the broker for that item, instead of spamming the chat."Right on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And @ Gisallo: If you don't think that Station Cash isn't a ploy to start offering better gear and items for sale with $$$ costs instead of Plat... then you haven't been following the current MMO scene closely.SOE is very aware of how well some of the Free to Play, Pay to Win games are doing (Perfect World for example) and station cash is their attempt to cash in (pun intended) on it.

Gisallo

02-10-2009, 08:56 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite>"Everyday I see someone spamming the channels with an offer because he wants to buy a fabled drop from Najena. I'd rather let him browse the broker for that item, instead of spamming the chat."Right on <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />And @ Gisallo: If you don't think that Station Cash isn't a ploy to start offering better gear and items for sale with $$$ costs instead of Plat... then you haven't been following the current MMO scene closely.SOE is very aware of how well some of the Free to Play, Pay to Win games are doing (Perfect World for example) and station cash is their attempt to cash in (pun intended) on it.</blockquote>Okay I have addressed this ad nauseum on the forum where this belongs so I will leave it at this since you obviously have no clue about how this MMO has a different economic model than a free play MMO that makes this worse case scenario worse than speculation and entering the land of paranoia. Please feel free to use the search feature to find those posts for logical rather than emotional based thought.

Grong

02-10-2009, 10:55 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite>"Everyday I see someone spamming the channels with an offer because he wants to buy a fabled drop from Najena. I'd rather let him browse the broker for that item, instead of spamming the chat."Right on <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />And @ Gisallo: If you don't think that Station Cash isn't a ploy to start offering better gear and items for sale with $$$ costs instead of Plat... then you haven't been following the current MMO scene closely.SOE is very aware of how well some of the Free to Play, Pay to Win games are doing (Perfect World for example) and station cash is their attempt to cash in (pun intended) on it.</blockquote>Okay I have addressed this ad nauseum on the forum where this belongs so I will leave it at this since you obviously have no clue about how this MMO has a different economic model than a free play MMO that makes this worse case scenario worse than speculation and entering the land of paranoia. Please feel free to use the search feature to find those posts for logical rather than emotional based thought.</blockquote>Seems when the logic of an argument breaks down name calling is the last resort. It would be much better to just not post then to post personal insults.

Gisallo

02-11-2009, 12:34 AM

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seems when the logic of an argument breaks down name calling is the last resort. It would be much better to just not post then to post personal insults.</blockquote>You know what I used to agree with you. I stopped going to other forums because I thought that here, while perhaps there were not as many posters on various topics, the discussion were logical and on point. Lately though my frustration has simply gotten the better of me. I posted numerous logical responses on a forum over a hundred pages long discussing stations cash. Even ones that noted a sympathy for those so vehemently against it. Here though is a thread that has nothing to do with station cash and people try to high jack it. Just as people tried to high jack threads about how bucklers effect Templars and turn it into a SHields give warriors and unfair advantage over brawlers, or most recently a post regarding mastercrafted armor and whether mitigation is contested into a conversation that tries to yet again address the alleged uncontested avoidance disparity between warriors and brawlers. It just gets old.Rather than repeat approximately 20 posts on the topic of how saying SC is a slippery slope to buying your mythical for $20.00 is simply conjecture at best, paranoia at worst, I directed the person to the appropriate thread, and yes not without a little chastisement. Deserved chastisement I think because people don't seem to simply take no for answer anymore. How many times have threads been moved or even locked because in the moderator's mind they have gotten completely off track? I am willing to take a finger wagging from you of Kiara to keep it civil if it means that maybe a discussion, that has some merit on both sides, can hopefully continue without being highjacked by people who think that 128 pages of 1905 posts of press for their point of view is not enough.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=438336">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=438336</a>

Wurm

02-11-2009, 05:39 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seems when the logic of an argument breaks down name calling is the last resort. It would be much better to just not post then to post personal insults.</blockquote>You know what I used to agree with you. I stopped going to other forums because I thought that here, while perhaps there were not as many posters on various topics, the discussion were logical and on point. Lately though my frustration has simply gotten the better of me. I posted numerous logical responses on a forum over a hundred pages long discussing stations cash. Even ones that noted a sympathy for those so vehemently against it. Here though is a thread that has nothing to do with station cash and people try to high jack it. Just as people tried to high jack threads about how bucklers effect Templars and turn it into a SHields give warriors and unfair advantage over brawlers, or most recently a post regarding mastercrafted armor and whether mitigation is contested into a conversation that tries to yet again address the alleged uncontested avoidance disparity between warriors and brawlers. It just gets old.Rather than repeat approximately 20 posts on the topic of how saying SC is a slippery slope to buying your mythical for $20.00 is simply conjecture at best, paranoia at worst, I directed the person to the appropriate thread, and yes not without a little chastisement. Deserved chastisement I think because people don't seem to simply take no for answer anymore. How many times have threads been moved or even locked because in the moderator's mind they have gotten completely off track? I am willing to take a finger wagging from you of Kiara to keep it civil if it means that maybe a discussion, that has some merit on both sides, can hopefully continue without being highjacked by people who think that 128 pages of 1905 posts of press for their point of view is not enough.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=438336">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=438336</a></blockquote>So you are another one of those people who have a dev in their back pocket feeding them whispers of info, or is that just the voices in your head?YOUR OPINION, is that SOE won't screw the pooch on station cash, I however have been playing their games long enough to know that, while you might love the game, never trust the team.I personally hope you are right. However when I finally see some decent looking armor dye jobs (that we the player base has been clamoring for since 2004) on station cash and then see the grape purple TSO shard armor and the Ultraman 72 mastercrafted plate<img src="http://psharbaugh.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/ultraman5.jpg" width="300" height="400" /> OH LOOK, ITS A LVL 72 MASTERCRAFTED TANK!you can buy for plat, I tend to wonder where the hell station cash is going to end up in a few expansions and LU time.So MY OPINION is that you may be right, but you also may be seriously wrong. I'm sorry you felt you needed to become the champion of defending station cash, but hey thats your own fault. I'm also sorry I missed all those threads you decided to defend SOE and Station Cash in... oh wait, no I'm not.And no I'm not going to search for them, but you knew that already.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So to get this thread back on track. I, unlike the OP don't think raid-class fable really belongs on the broker, however the amount of no-trade legendary items is way too much. People in instances should be given the option to make broker money on any drop they receive.The argument that this will lead to greedy players rolling need on items they can't use is valid, however those players quickly become black-listed and the problem sorts itself out.Also grouping with guildies and people you know makes the game more fun. Most PUGs are the same people grouped anyway, due to the low server populations so that also negates the problem a great deal.So say yes to the removal of NO-TRADE on Legendary, people selling chests in chat make it a mechanic that is broken anyway.And finally fix raid fabled that only the people, who are there when it drops, are entitled to loot it.

Gisallo

02-11-2009, 06:53 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>So MY OPINION is that you may be right, but you also may be seriously wrong. I'm sorry you felt you needed to become the champion of defending station cash, but hey thats your own fault. I'm also sorry I missed all those threads you decided to defend SOE and Station Cash in... oh wait, no I'm not.And no I'm not going to search for them, but you knew that already.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So to get this thread back on track. I, unlike the OP don't think raid-class fable really belongs on the broker, however the amount of no-trade legendary items is way too much. People in instances should be given the option to make broker money on any drop they receive.The argument that this will lead to greedy players rolling need on items they can't use is valid, however those players quickly become black-listed and the problem sorts itself out.Also grouping with guildies and people you know makes the game more fun. Most PUGs are the same people grouped anyway, due to the low server populations so that also negates the problem a great deal.So say yes to the removal of NO-TRADE on Legendary, people selling chests in chat make it a mechanic that is broken anyway.And finally fix raid fabled that only the people, who are there when it drops, are entitled to loot it.</blockquote>Well one of the reasons for the link is that I do not defend station cash. All I say is that right now nothing in it is game breaking or gives people an advantage that can not already be gained legitimately in game. I also do not see them changing this because there is no logical reason for them to do so. If they intended to do it there would be a better drop rate on LON booster packs for loot cards and they already would have been raking in the cash. I understand being against it on principle and respect that principle, though I do not let myself personally get worked up about it because to me a video game isn't worth that kind of aggravation. My annoyance was just that somehow this issue worked its way intop this thread and it is largely if not completely irrelevant.Now onto the point at hand. I do agree there needs to be more tradeable legendary stuff, I never said different. That being said I think the way to do this is to increase the rate of drops off of the named in Moors and JW and they need to make sure every expansion has at least 1, if not more contested instances (Sebs, Chardok, Karnors etc). The reason I say this is because there is not simply "legendary" items. There are tiers of legendary items just like their are tiers of fabled and I do not think that ALL legendary items belong on the broker. If the instance is clearly part of the tiered progression or has a lock out timer (which the Seb and Chardok type instances do not have) I think the loot should NOT be tradeable. This will minimize people from just farming the instances for loot. I have been driven INSANE by going into Karnors trying to finish quests only to find some tool bag of a Uber equipped dpser killing named farming for masters and sellable loot and now I have no quest update until he respawns. This will still keep the carrot there for participating in the progression which is an important part of the model for these types of games.

Wurm

02-11-2009, 07:15 AM

I personally HATE contested instances. With a passion. Just for that reason alone. I also have had a long hard crawl to get a named needed for a quest only to have another group race by us while we are doing the last group of trash to grab the named from under us.And yes all dropped legendary belongs on the broker... ALL OF IT without exception. Its only legendary after all.Besides who here hasn't had a no-trade piece drop that no one in the group could use (smart loot thank god is being used more and more) that after a /ran 100 ended up being sold to the vendor for a pitance by the person who won it?Wow 17 gold for a nice item that I couldn't use, that someone would have gladly paid at least 10 platnium for... where is the fun in that?Instance progression has been taken care of by the shard system more or less, and who cares if the guy, soloing over there in the corner, is all decked out in good Legendary gear?Is his wearing of good gear disturbing how much fun you are having? If so... then you need to rethink the reasons you are playing the game.*edit* And progression for me is how many quests I can finish before they grey out, how many hard mobs I was able to solo, and how much fun I've had with my guild, running instances and the sucessful raids we have been on.Not the gear I am currently wearing, that in my opinon, is nothing but the means to the ends I listed above.

Oakum

02-11-2009, 12:37 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally HATE contested instances. With a passion. Just for that reason alone. I also have had a long hard crawl to get a named needed for a quest only to have another group race by us while we are doing the last group of trash to grab the named from under us.And yes all dropped legendary belongs on the broker... ALL OF IT without exception. Its only legendary after all.Besides who here hasn't had a no-trade piece drop that no one in the group could use (smart loot thank god is being used more and more) that after a /ran 100 ended up being sold to the vendor for a pitance by the person who won it?Wow 17 gold for a nice item that I couldn't use, that someone would have gladly paid at least 10 platnium for... where is the fun in that?Instance progression has been taken care of by the shard system more or less, and who cares if the guy, soloing over there in the corner, is all decked out in good Legendary gear?Is his wearing of good gear disturbing how much fun you are having? If so... then you need to rethink the reasons you are playing the game.*edit* And progression for me is how many quests I can finish before they grey out, how many hard mobs I was able to solo, and how much fun I've had with my guild, running instances and the sucessful raids we have been on.Not the gear I am currently wearing, that in my opinon, is nothing but the means to the ends I listed above.</blockquote>Getting no trade legendary or fabled drops from instances is a way to keep players going back to them. There is no physical way, short of having a dev team the size of a small town that would be slow from its size anyway, that the dev's could put out enough content to keep people from not playing due to lack of things to have a goal to work toward.It would be run and instance once, sell what they didnt need, buy what they want that they didnt drop, drop the subscription to EQ2 and go play a different game for most players. That is not smart game developement.

Grong

02-11-2009, 01:25 PM

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally HATE contested instances. With a passion. Just for that reason alone. I also have had a long hard crawl to get a named needed for a quest only to have another group race by us while we are doing the last group of trash to grab the named from under us.And yes all dropped legendary belongs on the broker... ALL OF IT without exception. Its only legendary after all.Besides who here hasn't had a no-trade piece drop that no one in the group could use (smart loot thank god is being used more and more) that after a /ran 100 ended up being sold to the vendor for a pitance by the person who won it?Wow 17 gold for a nice item that I couldn't use, that someone would have gladly paid at least 10 platnium for... where is the fun in that?Instance progression has been taken care of by the shard system more or less, and who cares if the guy, soloing over there in the corner, is all decked out in good Legendary gear?Is his wearing of good gear disturbing how much fun you are having? If so... then you need to rethink the reasons you are playing the game.*edit* And progression for me is how many quests I can finish before they grey out, how many hard mobs I was able to solo, and how much fun I've had with my guild, running instances and the sucessful raids we have been on.Not the gear I am currently wearing, that in my opinon, is nothing but the means to the ends I listed above.</blockquote>Getting no trade legendary or fabled drops from instances is a way to keep players going back to them. There is no physical way, short of having a dev team the size of a small town that would be slow from its size anyway, that the dev's could put out enough content to keep people from not playing due to lack of things to have a goal to work toward.It would be run and instance once, sell what they didnt need, buy what they want that they didnt drop, drop the subscription to EQ2 and go play a different game for most players. That is not smart game developement.</blockquote>As a solo 80 Wizard said in our guild last night, "What do I do now?" Maybe by having better gear on the broker this gives her something to shoot for-some incentive to keep playing rather than going to another game.The wizard can harvest, she likes crafting and that is how she makes her money. But as far as equipment upgardes-she is very limited at this point. I don't need Fabled to be tradeable if the legendary drops become tradeable and allows me something to aspire to collect.Simply put a carrot in front of all us solo people so that we also have a reason to continue to play after hitting 80.Again, I/we are not looking for the best gear in the game. We simply are trying to better our toons, just like everyone else, and I still see no reason why more items could not have the no-trade tag taken away so that those who do find them can benefit more from selling the items they don't need and those of us who use other avenues to make money can purchase them.Let's take fabled out of the discussion since it seems to have caused a few to think we only want the best gear. We don't and I have never said that. Legendary having no-trade removed would be great by me and would give me another goal to strive for. If it is important for "them" to have no-trade to keep people playing the game, then it is equally important to have a carrot for those that solo (which, I think, is a pretty good number) to continue playing the game. Make Legendary tradeable and it is a win-win for everyone.

GangleG

02-11-2009, 01:31 PM

So, you essentially want other people to do the content for you while still getting the rewards. Gotcha.

Wurm

02-11-2009, 01:34 PM

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally HATE contested instances. With a passion. Just for that reason alone. I also have had a long hard crawl to get a named needed for a quest only to have another group race by us while we are doing the last group of trash to grab the named from under us.And yes all dropped legendary belongs on the broker... ALL OF IT without exception. Its only legendary after all.Besides who here hasn't had a no-trade piece drop that no one in the group could use (smart loot thank god is being used more and more) that after a /ran 100 ended up being sold to the vendor for a pitance by the person who won it?Wow 17 gold for a nice item that I couldn't use, that someone would have gladly paid at least 10 platnium for... where is the fun in that?Instance progression has been taken care of by the shard system more or less, and who cares if the guy, soloing over there in the corner, is all decked out in good Legendary gear?Is his wearing of good gear disturbing how much fun you are having? If so... then you need to rethink the reasons you are playing the game.*edit* And progression for me is how many quests I can finish before they grey out, how many hard mobs I was able to solo, and how much fun I've had with my guild, running instances and the sucessful raids we have been on.Not the gear I am currently wearing, that in my opinon, is nothing but the means to the ends I listed above.</blockquote>Getting no trade legendary or fabled drops from instances is a way to keep players going back to them. There is no physical way, short of having a dev team the size of a small town that would be slow from its size anyway, that the dev's could put out enough content to keep people from not playing due to lack of things to have a goal to work toward.It would be run and instance once, sell what they didnt need, buy what they want that they didnt drop, drop the subscription to EQ2 and go play a different game for most players. That is not smart game developement.</blockquote>And we all know that people having to do the same run over and over and over and over and over and over x 100 to get one piece of equipment they want makes for happy players...No it doesn't.

Faenril

02-11-2009, 01:34 PM

What will be the carrot once you bought a set of legendary gear from broker ? I mean if gearing up is the ONLY reason you play the game, putting more stuff on broker will not hold you in game in the long run.

Wurm

02-11-2009, 01:41 PM

<cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, you essentially want other people to do the content for you while still getting the rewards. Gotcha.</blockquote>And the person who put up the item for sale gets to fill his coffers with plat which is also a reward... your point is?I also happen to know a soloer that only groups when he forced to to finish a quest that has well over 1800 quests done and also is a Artifact Raider... I guess your going to say he doesn't "do content" either. lol what a joke.

GangleG

02-11-2009, 01:43 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, you essentially want other people to do the content for you while still getting the rewards. Gotcha.</blockquote>And the person who put up the item for sale gets to fill his coffers with plat which is also a reward... your point is?I also happen to know a soloer that only groups when he forced to to finish a quest that has well over 1800 quests done and also is a Artifact Raider... I guess your going to say he doesn't "do content" either. lol what a joke.</blockquote>No, actually. This thread is about people who want rewards above the content they're playing. The fact of the matter is: the content is there, yet people refuse to complete it and still expect the rewards from it.

Wurm

02-11-2009, 01:46 PM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What will be the carrot once you bought a set of legendary gear from broker ? I mean if gearing up is the ONLY reason you play the game, putting more stuff on broker will not hold you in game in the long run.</blockquote>I doubt that is anyone who plays EQ2 only reason for playing... the gear just isn't that compelling when compared to World of Warcraft for example.Its every thing else that makes EQ2 the better game, having good equipment just gives you a bigger window of opportunity to explore it with out getting your butt handed to you every couple mins.

Wurm

02-11-2009, 01:49 PM

<cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, you essentially want other people to do the content for you while still getting the rewards. Gotcha.</blockquote>And the person who put up the item for sale gets to fill his coffers with plat which is also a reward... your point is?I also happen to know a soloer that only groups when he forced to to finish a quest that has well over 1800 quests done and also is a Artifact Raider... I guess your going to say he doesn't "do content" either. lol what a joke.</blockquote>No, actually. This thread is about people who want rewards above the content they're playing. The fact of the matter is: the content is there, yet people refuse to complete it and still expect the rewards from it.</blockquote>No it is actually about people who want better equipment to play the game the way they want to play it... like I mentioned above, if the guy in the corner who is having a blast soloing, makes you jealous or angry because he is wearing good equipment, then maybe the game isn't for you.

Grong

02-11-2009, 01:51 PM

<cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, you essentially want other people to do the content for you while still getting the rewards. Gotcha.</blockquote>And the person who put up the item for sale gets to fill his coffers with plat which is also a reward... your point is?I also happen to know a soloer that only groups when he forced to to finish a quest that has well over 1800 quests done and also is a Artifact Raider... I guess your going to say he doesn't "do content" either. lol what a joke.</blockquote>No, actually. This thread is about people who want rewards above the content they're playing. The fact of the matter is: the content is there, yet people refuse to complete it and still expect the rewards from it.</blockquote>Not sure how this content is "above the content they're playing."? How do we pay for that gear? Is it just simply given to us with no effort on our part? I would suggest spending hours upon hours of harvesting, crafting, gathering shiney's lends itself to a customer who plays this game just as long as someone who groups or raids. I don't think one playstyle is any better than the other. Both are means to an end and I hope then end is a bettering of our toons for both parties involved.Think about it for a moment-if your a fully fabled raider with all the best gear in the game in each slot and fully mastered-do you have much incentive to run instances or raid anymore other than for sheer enjoyment. Giving people not in a position to raid or even group much something to shoot for is simply giving people an incentive to keep playing this game-which benefits everyone.

Grong

02-11-2009, 01:52 PM

<cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, you essentially want other people to do the content for you while still getting the rewards. Gotcha.</blockquote>No one on this thread has stated that in any way.

GangleG

02-11-2009, 01:54 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, you essentially want other people to do the content for you while still getting the rewards. Gotcha.</blockquote>And the person who put up the item for sale gets to fill his coffers with plat which is also a reward... your point is?I also happen to know a soloer that only groups when he forced to to finish a quest that has well over 1800 quests done and also is a Artifact Raider... I guess your going to say he doesn't "do content" either. lol what a joke.</blockquote>No, actually. This thread is about people who want rewards above the content they're playing. The fact of the matter is: the content is there, yet people refuse to complete it and still expect the rewards from it.</blockquote>No it is actually about people who want better equipment to play the game the way they want to play it... like I mentioned above, if the guy in the corner who is having a blast soloing, makes you jealous or angry because he is wearing good equipment, then maybe the game isn't for you.</blockquote>They way they want to play it is by not doing the content but still expecting the rewards. It's a really simple, yet sad concept.Soloers get rewards in line with solo content; heroic content yields legendary, and in some cases, fabled loot; raiding yields fabled loot. It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

GangleG

02-11-2009, 01:56 PM

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, you essentially want other people to do the content for you while still getting the rewards. Gotcha.</blockquote>No one on this thread has stated that in any way.</blockquote>Actually yes, you did. You said you want legendary no-trade tags removed which would enable you to buy gear that comes from heroic content while not actually doing anything but clicking on the broker. So in order for that gear to get on the broker, someone has to do the content -- which isn't going to be the soloer.Go do some group or raid content, you might enjoy it.

revren

02-11-2009, 02:05 PM

Hey HeyTo the gentleman or lady who has stated that we should try grouping or raiding, you see the fact of the matter is that i have. In Fact in RoK i was in a guild cleared every non-contested mob , I have grouped and killed 95%of group content in TSO . However farming <insert group zone> for <insert item> is not what i want to do for the next <insert number of months>. Welcome HomeRev

Valanthe

02-11-2009, 02:12 PM

<cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey HeyTo the gentleman or lady who has stated that we should try grouping or raiding, you see the fact of the matter is that i have. In Fact in RoK i was in a guild cleared every non-contested mob , I have grouped and killed 95%of group content in TSO . However farming for is not what i want to do for the next . Welcome HomeRev</blockquote>If you don't want to farm the gear you want, don't expect to get it. It's really that simple.Good items are rare for a reason.

Wurm

02-11-2009, 02:16 PM

<cite>Valanthe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>revren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey HeyTo the gentleman or lady who has stated that we should try grouping or raiding, you see the fact of the matter is that i have. In Fact in RoK i was in a guild cleared every non-contested mob , I have grouped and killed 95%of group content in TSO . However farming for is not what i want to do for the next . Welcome HomeRev</blockquote>If you don't want to farm the gear you want, don't expect to get it. It's really that simple.Good items are rare for a reason.</blockquote>And what is that reason? Come on, I want you to explain it to me... I bet you can't come up with one that isn't you making it up as you go.

RafaelSmith

02-11-2009, 03:47 PM

The fact remains that for each given playstyle(solo, group, raid) there is reward to be had that is appropriate for that palystyle....once you have everything you can possibly get given your playstyle and have done everything there is do given your playstyle then guess what...game is over. I primarily group......with a little raiding thrown in.......if the point comes when I cannot upgrade or advance without transitioning to full raiding...and I am unwilling to do so...then its game over. SOE doesnt owe me any incentive to keep playing.Same for those that primarily solo....if you have the best avaialbe to you via soloing...and do not want to group to get better...game over.Not too mention that if all i want to do is group....I dont need raid gear to do it. If all i want to do is solo...then I dont need instance gear to do it.This thread is entirely about people that want to have the rewards from the next "tier" of gameplay made available to them without them having to transition to that next "tier" of gameplay.I guess as a grouper and T1 Rok raider I should start asking for VP gear to be available on the broker?

Wurm

02-11-2009, 04:41 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact remains that for each given playstyle(solo, group, raid) there is reward to be had that is appropriate for that palystyle....once you have everything you can possibly get given your playstyle and have done everything there is do given your playstyle then guess what...game is over. I primarily group......with a little raiding thrown in.......if the point comes when I cannot upgrade or advance without transitioning to full raiding...and I am unwilling to do so...then its game over. SOE doesnt owe me any incentive to keep playing.Same for those that primarily solo....if you have the best avaialbe to you via soloing...and do not want to group to get better...game over.Not too mention that if all i want to do is group....I dont need raid gear to do it. If all i want to do is solo...then I dont need instance gear to do it.This thread is entirely about people that want to have the rewards from the next "tier" of gameplay made available to them without them having to transition to that next "tier" of gameplay.I guess as a grouper and T1 Rok raider I should start asking for VP gear to be available on the broker?</blockquote>A MMORPG is a game that never ends... this has been a fun thread just for some of the really strange ideas some of you have in regards to EQ2.

RafaelSmith

02-11-2009, 04:49 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact remains that for each given playstyle(solo, group, raid) there is reward to be had that is appropriate for that palystyle....once you have everything you can possibly get given your playstyle and have done everything there is do given your playstyle then guess what...game is over.I primarily group......with a little raiding thrown in.......if the point comes when I cannot upgrade or advance without transitioning to full raiding...and I am unwilling to do so...then its game over. SOE doesnt owe me any incentive to keep playing.Same for those that primarily solo....if you have the best avaialbe to you via soloing...and do not want to group to get better...game over.Not too mention that if all i want to do is group....I dont need raid gear to do it. If all i want to do is solo...then I dont need instance gear to do it.This thread is entirely about people that want to have the rewards from the next "tier" of gameplay made available to them without them having to transition to that next "tier" of gameplay.I guess as a grouper and T1 Rok raider I should start asking for VP gear to be available on the broker?</blockquote>A MMORPG is a game that never ends... this has been a fun thread just for some of the really strange ideas some of you have in regards to EQ2.</blockquote>It does if your unwilling to do all that it offers.

Gisallo

02-11-2009, 06:53 PM

In response to many of the issues<ol><li>the soloer who says "what now.": this has always been an issue in MMO's. MMO's, especially this on, were based off of the model of the table top RPG. This means groups of people getting together in order to complete a quest. Yes over time in order to get more subscribers they have added more solo content. At launch this game and EQ 1 had little solo content after newbie land and only added it slowly because of the issue of pleasing this part of the subscriber base. If one believes A LOT more and better gear (a little is cool) would keep them, then the soloer's must be lying because they universally say "I don't want better gear I want more content and quests". Also when you please one part of the subscriber base by tweaking that part of the model, you have to do so without messing with the other part of the model. If you were to make all drops in all instances No-Trade then you would be practically breaking the group half of the model.</li><li>Legendary is just legendary: oh no it is not. Just look at two legendary weapons same level, the Bow of Rapid Trepidation and the Warlord's Bow of defense. In terms of a bows job, dps, the BRT blows the Warlord's out of the water. There are clearly tiers of legendary items just as there are tiers of fabled. If one does not expect the same level of loot to drop from PR as it does from VP, why would we expect the same to happen in instances of clearly different difficulty, even when they are the same "level". The whole idea of progression in the same level/tier is so that you get better gear in the lower tier which in turn prepares you for the next since you can not gain another level.</li></ol>Basically Rafael hit it on the head with his post. This is a game with games within it. You can chose to compete in only one realm you will eventually hit a wall of sorts. The purpose of some of these mechanics is to encourage people to move from one stage to the next. Solo play to get to know you class and get to end game fast thanks to new mechanics. Group and do instances, "look another shard, woot and exquisite chest". Okay no more loot I can get where is that PUG raid again? Yes everyone will not want to go through this progression BUT SOE has to make content to try and keep everyone happy. Since you can not keep everyone happy this means compromise. Compromise means that every now and then you may have to settle. Groupers settled in ROK, now soloers settle (though that may change when Lavastorm revamp is out). Its the way it is...

Lethe5683

02-11-2009, 10:59 PM

There's only two reasons that item tier matters.1. It provides a basic guidline about what sort of sgats you might expect the item to have.2. It determins what you get from transmuting it.

Wurm

02-12-2009, 03:36 AM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's only two reasons that item tier matters.1. It provides a basic guidline about what sort of sgats you might expect the item to have.2. It determins what you get from transmuting it.</blockquote>Yep <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />@ RafaelSmith: No it doesn't, thats the great thing about MMOs, you are unlimited to how you choose to play the game. Mob Killer, Adventurer, Crafter, Harvester, World Chat Spammer, Dungeon Crawler, Soloer, Quester, Casual Raider, Hardcore Raider, Alt Fanatic, Min Maxer, Roll Player, PVPer or any combination of the above.Just because someone else doesn't like to play the game the way you like to play it doesn't mean the game is over for them@ Gisallo: And once again, I ask you, what does it matter to you and your enjoyment of the game, which bow the soloer is using? Your arguement that it matters is silly. That soloer is having 0 effect on your enjoyment of the game. Unless you suffer from gear envy which is what I am starting to suspect.I personally do a lot of instances and I'd like to make some plat from the no trade Legendary drops I happen to win when we /ran 100 on stuff none of us can use, and with that plat buy other Legendary that I can use.Instead I end up either vendoring it for a few gold or more often feeding it to Marr.

Gisallo

02-12-2009, 06:35 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>@ Gisallo: And once again, I ask you, what does it matter to you and your enjoyment of the game, which bow the soloer is using? Your arguement that it matters is silly. That soloer is having 0 effect on your enjoyment of the game. Unless you suffer from gear envy which is what I am starting to suspect.I personally do a lot of instances and I'd like to make some plat from the no trade Legendary drops I happen to win when we /ran 100 on stuff none of us can use, and with that plat buy other Legendary that I can use.Instead I end up either vendoring it for a few gold or more often feeding it to Marr.</blockquote>Here's the thing though. SOE KNOWS that people are going to say "dang the Queen was stingy again with her chest I want item X." These people will keep running that instance over and over again trying to get this item. They will keep paying their 14.99 a month in order to keep running that instance in order to get that item to finally drop.Now if this were not the case and they started popping up on the broker why should they run that instance over and over again trying to get that item? The answer is no reason. It would likely be easier just to wait for it to pop on the broker and then spend the plat that is so easy to come by in this game. This then eliminates the grind and that much sooner someone is going to become bored and not pay their 14.99. Thats the main thrust of my point. The grinds firm place in their business model. The system is the classic skinner box, different levels of reward for different levels of tasks. The more difficult the scenario becomes the greater the reward. If you can just buy the reward, outside of the box so to speak, the classical psychological model breaks down and so does, to an extent, the business model.Also I find it funny that Lethe poopoos on itemization here BUT complains about its effect on brawlers and dps classes elsewhere. Itemization is VERY necessary. Try getting a group in just "normal" legendary gear through even the easiest of the Guk instances or Antrebe's Fabled Korsha....NOT going to happen.

Faenril

02-12-2009, 06:58 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What will be the carrot once you bought a set of legendary gear from broker ? I mean if gearing up is the ONLY reason you play the game, putting more stuff on broker will not hold you in game in the long run.</blockquote>I doubt that is anyone who plays EQ2 only reason for playing... the gear just isn't that compelling when compared to World of Warcraft for example.Its every thing else that makes EQ2 the better game, having good equipment just gives you a bigger window of opportunity to explore it with out getting your butt handed to you every couple mins.</blockquote>Exactly the point I wanted to make.My post was aimed at that poster who mentioned his "primary solo" wizard friend wondering what to do next. If you wonder what to do, putting some extra gear on broker will not keep you in game, at least not for long. What keeps players hooked is community, and CONTENT. New quests ... zones to explore ... events ... fun times spent with friends...At MOST, gear should be a mean to an end: clearing harder content.

Faenril

02-12-2009, 07:15 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's the thing though. SOE KNOWS that people are going to say "dang the Queen was stingy again with her chest I want item X." These people will keep running that instance over and over again trying to get this item. They will keep paying their 14.99 a month in order to keep running that instance in order to get that item to finally drop.</blockquote>Actually this did not work with me. I ran RE2 a bunch of times and never got the cloak to drop (saw the scout ring once and lost the roll :p). After a while I just decided I had better things to do in game and quit trying. At least I gave up actively looking for a group or building one to go there daily.Not saying you are plain wrong, I see your point, but it's just not my personnal experience <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But now let's look at the problem from a reversed perspective:Imagine that you HAVE the fabled drop you need so badly from zone X. What is the point going there again, since all drops are just few gold cash loot for you now ? If you could sell the items on broker, wouldn't the incentive to go there again be higher ?Once I got Preator's Guard on my illy for instance (got lucky it took only a week :p), I never went back in Vaults except for guildies/friends epic updates. Because appart from the elusive master there is NOTHING to get there.In KOS almost all loots were tradable. We farmed SOS and Nest in duos or trios regularly until T8, putting the good gear we would loot on broker, earning few plats every run. In today's game there would be almost no point doing that.

Eugam

02-12-2009, 07:24 AM

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to agree with Cold Metal.There are quite a few people like me who would like to better their toon but do not have a real world situation conducive to grouping/raiding.Why shouldn't a raider be able to sell the gear they received from vanquishing a hard foe and profit from it instead of just only being able to transmute it or sell the loot rights, which is essentially the same thing.Treasure hunters in real life don't risk life and limb just so they can find items they can never use or sell.Even us solo players have a desire to better our toons-why should the option of using crafting, harvesting..to build up a good amount of money to be able to purchase the items we are not able to gain in other ways?</blockquote>Even if mobs would drop tradable fabeld the raiders would rather transmute it then sell it.The problem you see doesnt exist. T2 shard armor is more then awesome for a soloing brawler. Really. And with the Lavastorm revamp there will be solo shard missions. You will be able to upgrade a lot.It is a bit different when it comes to brawler weapons. There is really not enough for the grouper and soloer. There is a crafted effigy and thats it. At least i havent seen anything else good. There should be a legendary drop or reward similar to the effigy.

krinkled

02-12-2009, 09:03 AM

I agree with the OP over 9000%. Making everything from the latest tier no-trade is BIZARRE and goes against everything else they have been doing with the game. Some examples: Station Exchange Real Money TransactionsRefer-A-FriendReduced XP OverallStation Point Real Money TransactionsLegends of Norrath Card Game Real Money Transactions Then they take all the gear that you need to progress your character at 80 and make it NO-TRADE and completely exclusive to people who play 40 hours per week hard core raiding. Please realize you have an older population with more money and less time. End the old model where only basement virgins get the elite gear!! Figure out a way to monetize it like everything else! Is there some serious confusion at SOE about where they want this game to go? It is pretty obvious what is making them more money and where the game overall is heading. Lets get over this idea left over from a bunch of basement virgins and raiders that the only way to get great gear and progress your character on a PvE server is hardcore big raids and 40 hour week dedication. This is a failed idea - it LEADS TO LESS MONEY FOR SOE.You make more money from the player who plays fewer hours, user fewer of your server resources, yet pays the same monthly fee and is also particpating in additional real money transactions. This is your #1 player, this is how you maximize profits. This player needs to be able to get the best gear too or they will leave. And then you will be left with a bunch of perrenially angry stingy basement virgins and your profits will begin to declien again, until you cancel this game! A FEW CHOICES: 1) MAKE ALL RAID LOOT TRADEABLE ON BROKERS. 2) MAKE RAID EQUAL QUALITY LOOT AVAILABLE FROM HERITAGE TYPE QUESTS AT THE LEVEL CAP. 3) MAKE RAID EQUAL QUALITY LOOT AVAILABLE FROM CRAFTING USING RECIPES THAT DO NOT REQUIRE RAIDING TO GET. MAKE THE RECIPES HARD TO GET IN OTHER WAYS. Wake up SOE, take your game the rest of the way into the future. Finish making your game the adult MMO it is becoming. Adults with families often don't want to raid - they want to give you money - get this money from them and improve your bottom line and get bonuses for yourselves by making the best loot in the game available to everyone willing to pay and play. Basement virgins usually have small wallets - it seems your are learning this lesson but its time to take it the next step by making the top epics somehow available to whoever is willing to pay.And do not say that NO-TRADE items only can have higher stats, that if you made them tradeable you would have to reduce the stats.what a crock of BS, its your game and you can do whatever the heck you want!

Wurm

02-12-2009, 09:57 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's the thing though. SOE KNOWS that people are going to say "dang the Queen was stingy again with her chest I want item X." These people will keep running that instance over and over again trying to get this item. They will keep paying their 14.99 a month in order to keep running that instance in order to get that item to finally drop.Or they will get frustrated and quit the game... it happens all the time.Now if this were not the case and they started popping up on the broker why should they run that instance over and over again trying to get that item? The answer is no reason. It would likely be easier just to wait for it to pop on the broker and then spend the plat that is so easy to come by in this game. This then eliminates the grind and that much sooner someone is going to become bored and not pay their 14.99. Thats the main thrust of my point. The grinds firm place in their business model. The system is the classic skinner box, different levels of reward for different levels of tasks. The more difficult the scenario becomes the greater the reward. If you can just buy the reward, outside of the box so to speak, the classical psychological model breaks down and so does, to an extent, the business model.It worked fine without the huge amount of no-trade items before so I disagree. Did you start playing in 2007 or just started to post here in 2007? I need to know that because if you started playing in 2007 then your perspective of the game is completely different from me who started playing the game 2 weeks after it was released. Back then the raiding guilds sold fabled drops to provide the guild with much needed money. That is no longer the case. Now the raiding guilds no longer need the money from selling items. And the grind you mentioned is boring to a lot of people, its the quests that keep most of us coming back for more, that and the lore.Also I find it funny that Lethe poopoos on itemization here BUT complains about its effect on brawlers and dps classes elsewhere. Itemization is VERY necessary. Try getting a group in just "normal" legendary gear through even the easiest of the Guk instances or Antrebe's Fabled Korsha....NOT going to happen.Then people having better gear is needed, regardless of how they get it. If you only play PUGs then its even MORE important. If you group only with friends you know the gear and abilities of the people your playing with and that makes it easier. Not everyone needs or wants "progression" as you put it. And as long as you are grouping with the same people most of the time, you have your own microscopical world of "progression" and it shouldn't bother you at all what everyone else is doing.</blockquote>And to add to that, since T2 shard gear is so "good" ... and is extremely easy to get, why not have Legendary on the broker that compares with it or is a bit better? Hoarding Platinum is for Dragons, not for Adventurers.

Wurm

02-12-2009, 10:03 AM

<cite>krinkled wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with the OP over 9000%.>> Insert white bolded Rant Here << </blockquote>Don't agree with you one iota... Just wanted to make sure everyone else understands that. Raid gear doesn't belong anywhere but with the raiders now that they have other sources to make Plat. Period.

GangleG

02-12-2009, 11:06 AM

<cite>krinkled wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with the OP over 9000%.Then they take all the gear that you need to progress your character at 80 and make it NO-TRADE and completely exclusive to people who play 40 hours per week hard core raiding. Please realize you have an older population with more money and less time. End the old model where only basement virgins get the elite gear!! Figure out a way to monetize it like everything else!Basement virgins usually have small wallets - it seems your are learning this lesson but its time to take it the next step by making the top epics somehow available to whoever is willing to pay.And do not say that NO-TRADE items only can have higher stats, that if you made them tradeable you would have to reduce the stats.what a crock of BS, its your game and you can do whatever the heck you want!</blockquote>Your post leaves you with zero credibility and only shows the ignorance of your gross generalisations. Raiders raid about 2-3 hours a night and about 4 nights a week. That's what, 12 hours a week? I won't even get into the rest of your post since it is filled with ad hominems. For someone supposedly being "older" and "mature" you sure come off as an envious child.

RafaelSmith

02-12-2009, 11:09 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>@ RafaelSmith: No it doesn't, thats the great thing about MMOs, you are unlimited to how you choose to play the game. Mob Killer, Adventurer, Crafter, Harvester, World Chat Spammer, Dungeon Crawler, Soloer, Quester, Casual Raider, Hardcore Raider, Alt Fanatic, Min Maxer, Roll Player, PVPer or any combination of the above.Just because someone else doesn't like to play the game the way you like to play it doesn't mean the game is over for them@ Gisallo: And once again, I ask you, what does it matter to you and your enjoyment of the game, which bow the soloer is using? Your arguement that it matters is silly. That soloer is having 0 effect on your enjoyment of the game. Unless you suffer from gear envy which is what I am starting to suspect.I personally do a lot of instances and I'd like to make some plat from the no trade Legendary drops I happen to win when we /ran 100 on stuff none of us can use, and with that plat buy other Legendary that I can use.Instead I end up either vendoring it for a few gold or more often feeding it to Marr.</blockquote>I am not saying people have to play the game the way I want. What I am saying is that anyone can play the game anyway they want but they have to accept whatever limits their chosen method to play has. If you don't raid....then you should not expect raid level loot. If you dont group then you should not expect loot that drops in group instances. Its pretty simple.

Wurm

02-12-2009, 11:25 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>@ RafaelSmith: No it doesn't, thats the great thing about MMOs, you are unlimited to how you choose to play the game. Mob Killer, Adventurer, Crafter, Harvester, World Chat Spammer, Dungeon Crawler, Soloer, Quester, Casual Raider, Hardcore Raider, Alt Fanatic, Min Maxer, Roll Player, PVPer or any combination of the above.Just because someone else doesn't like to play the game the way you like to play it doesn't mean the game is over for them@ Gisallo: And once again, I ask you, what does it matter to you and your enjoyment of the game, which bow the soloer is using? Your arguement that it matters is silly. That soloer is having 0 effect on your enjoyment of the game. Unless you suffer from gear envy which is what I am starting to suspect.I personally do a lot of instances and I'd like to make some plat from the no trade Legendary drops I happen to win when we /ran 100 on stuff none of us can use, and with that plat buy other Legendary that I can use.Instead I end up either vendoring it for a few gold or more often feeding it to Marr.</blockquote>I am not saying people have to play the game the way I want. What I am saying is that anyone can play the game anyway they want but they have to accept whatever limits their chosen method to play has. If you don't raid....then you should not expect raid level loot. If you dont group then you should not expect loot that drops in group instances. Its pretty simple.</blockquote>And why not? Thats what I've been asking over and over again and not one of you has given me a (IMO) legitimate answer to what it hurts.Other than the people who have [Removed for Content] issues, who does it hurt?Gisallo said it will break the game. Your a 2004 player, did the rare (as in only happened once in a blue moon) fabled that used to show up on the broker from raild guilds looking for plat hurt anything? Did it make the game go bankrupt and dissapear? Or are we still playing 5 years (sic) later?

Noaani

02-12-2009, 11:27 AM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even if mobs would drop tradable fabeld the raiders would rather transmute it then sell it.</blockquote>Not true, there is more than enough no-trade fabled loot that gets transmuted to cover a whole guilds adornments, so we would rather see a fabled item for 250+ plat than a mana for 40p.Its not like raiders particularly care who gets items that we don't even want for free...

CoLD MeTaL

02-12-2009, 11:35 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>krinkled wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with the OP over 9000%.>> Insert white bolded Rant Here <<</blockquote>Don't agree with you one iota... Just wanted to make sure everyone else understands that. Raid gear doesn't belong anywhere but with the raiders now that they have other sources to make Plat. Period.</blockquote>And I happen to believe that the only 'real' difficulty to raidng is finding 23 other people who share your time slot, and can keep a thought for more than 15 seconds.just like Masters which are fabled and can drop off any mob in the game, all fabled gear should be tradeable and possible to dro off any mob in the game. Raiders just want to lord it over people because they have a better time slot.

GangleG

02-12-2009, 11:38 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>And why not? Thats what I've been asking over and over again and not one of you has given me a (IMO) legitimate answer to what it hurts.Other than the people who have [Removed for Content] issues, who does it hurt?Gisallo said it will break the game. Your a 2004 player, did the rare (as in only happened once in a blue moon) fabled that used to show up on the broker from raild guilds looking for plat hurt anything? Did it make the game go bankrupt and dissapear? Or are we still playing 5 years (sic) later?</blockquote>Because if everyone was running around with raid gear, it would trivialise any content. You would have players screwing progression of solo, heroic, and even raid content because they are already geared out and have no challenges.All the hard work that raid guilds have put in to learning encounters and spending hundreds of plat on repairs would be a wasted exercise now that everyone and their pets have the most powerful items in game.If players want the gear, then they should have to put in the work that everyone else has.

revren

02-12-2009, 12:16 PM

Hey Hey How many times do you have to clear a raid or group zone in order to have earned the gear? Welcome HomeRev

Wurm

02-12-2009, 12:35 PM

<cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>And why not? Thats what I've been asking over and over again and not one of you has given me a (IMO) legitimate answer to what it hurts.Other than the people who have [Removed for Content] issues, who does it hurt?Gisallo said it will break the game. Your a 2004 player, did the rare (as in only happened once in a blue moon) fabled that used to show up on the broker from raild guilds looking for plat hurt anything? Did it make the game go bankrupt and dissapear? Or are we still playing 5 years (sic) later?</blockquote>Because if everyone was running around with raid gear, it would trivialise any content. You would have players screwing progression of solo, heroic, and even raid content because they are already geared out and have no challenges.All the hard work that raid guilds have put in to learning encounters and spending hundreds of plat on repairs would be a wasted exercise now that everyone and their pets have the most powerful items in game.If players want the gear, then they should have to put in the work that everyone else has.</blockquote>Like I said before I'm not talking about raid gear. I think only raiders need it or deserve it, you want some? Go raid. It's as simple as that. However legendary only makes it a bit easier to do content. So there should be more of the currently no-trade legendary in circulation that comes from instances. Because as I also have said before... shard legendary makes it a moot point anyway.It will also give the people who love instances and hate questing/harvesting/crafting a way to make more plat.

GangleG

02-12-2009, 01:06 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>And why not? Thats what I've been asking over and over again and not one of you has given me a (IMO) legitimate answer to what it hurts.Other than the people who have [Removed for Content] issues, who does it hurt?Gisallo said it will break the game. Your a 2004 player, did the rare (as in only happened once in a blue moon) fabled that used to show up on the broker from raild guilds looking for plat hurt anything? Did it make the game go bankrupt and dissapear? Or are we still playing 5 years (sic) later?</blockquote>Because if everyone was running around with raid gear, it would trivialise any content. You would have players screwing progression of solo, heroic, and even raid content because they are already geared out and have no challenges.All the hard work that raid guilds have put in to learning encounters and spending hundreds of plat on repairs would be a wasted exercise now that everyone and their pets have the most powerful items in game.If players want the gear, then they should have to put in the work that everyone else has.</blockquote>Like I said before I'm not talking about raid gear. I think only raiders need it or deserve it, you want some? Go raid. It's as simple as that. However legendary only makes it a bit easier to do content. So there should be more of the currently no-trade legendary in circulation that comes from instances. Because as I also have said before... shard legendary makes it a moot point anyway.It will also give the people who love instances and hate questing/harvesting/crafting a way to make more plat.</blockquote>I have no problems with this except for the gear from the harder heroic zones: Palace of Ferhzul and Outer Stronghold; these items are pretty much on par and better than some raid gear.

Wurm

02-12-2009, 01:55 PM

<cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>And why not? Thats what I've been asking over and over again and not one of you has given me a (IMO) legitimate answer to what it hurts.Other than the people who have [Removed for Content] issues, who does it hurt?Gisallo said it will break the game. Your a 2004 player, did the rare (as in only happened once in a blue moon) fabled that used to show up on the broker from raild guilds looking for plat hurt anything? Did it make the game go bankrupt and dissapear? Or are we still playing 5 years (sic) later?</blockquote>Because if everyone was running around with raid gear, it would trivialise any content. You would have players screwing progression of solo, heroic, and even raid content because they are already geared out and have no challenges.All the hard work that raid guilds have put in to learning encounters and spending hundreds of plat on repairs would be a wasted exercise now that everyone and their pets have the most powerful items in game.If players want the gear, then they should have to put in the work that everyone else has.</blockquote>Like I said before I'm not talking about raid gear. I think only raiders need it or deserve it, you want some? Go raid. It's as simple as that. However legendary only makes it a bit easier to do content. So there should be more of the currently no-trade legendary in circulation that comes from instances. Because as I also have said before... shard legendary makes it a moot point anyway.It will also give the people who love instances and hate questing/harvesting/crafting a way to make more plat.</blockquote>I have no problems with this except for the gear from the harder heroic zones: Palace of Ferhzul and Outer Stronghold; these items are pretty much on par and better than some raid gear.</blockquote>If that is the case, then something went wrong with the raid gear during development and testing. And the raid gear should be boosted.

RafaelSmith

02-12-2009, 02:01 PM

More legendary gear on the broker is fine. But this thread is specifically asking for more T8 fabled to be on the broker.T8 fabled drops from instances need to remain no-trade....it gives people incentive....and in my case it gives me something to shoot and set attainment goals for. Much like the Fabled raid gear.

urgthock

02-12-2009, 02:29 PM

Good morning/afternoon all. This is my first post on the forums. I have been playing EQ2 since Jan 2006 and prior to that EQ1 since 2000. I would just like to say that upon seeing this particular discussion thread, I felt that I had to make a comment. I have been playing SOE's EQ franchise game for almost 9 years now. I have a very demanding job and home life as well. However, I have tried to make time to play this game I love so much. I just have to say that I agree with the original poster completely. I have very limited time to do much more than solo and the occasional group here and there. I am not going to waste mine or anyone elses time trying to argue about whether or not it is or isn't fair for a primarily solo/group playstyle person to be allowed to have the better and higher-end gear that those who raid constantly and tackle the hardest content in the game have. I don't believe that anyone will ever really convince anyone else to change their mind. Since basically all we are doing is putting forth our own ideas and opinions in the hope that SOE might possibly see something they agree with or hear a strong or rational enough argument for; I would like to include my own. I think that there should be a 3rd tier of Void Shard gear. This tier should be fabled quality gear, better than legendary albeit still not quite as good as raid (legendary > T3 Void shard > Raid). This would allow the solo/ group person to feel as though they have something to strive to accomplish and actually CAN accomplish within the playstyle their real life or preference allows; although with a set up like this it would take very long time, much like raiding does, just without the need to include 11-23 other people who you don't want to inconvenience with your need to go afk for 20 mins at a time because your son is asking you to come help him with something, or your pregnant wife wants you to go get her something to eat, or a million other things that can and do pop up in some peoples lives. It can be made to cost a very high number of void shards and require one to have to go through the first 2 tiers to get better and better gear (much like the raiders do to progress in the raid setting). To those who claim I or any other soloer shouldn't need it, I can only say I disagree with you and I believe this would be a viable option to obtaining gear that would help me to do a better job while soloing or grouping, have more fun, increase the speed in accomplishing things and survivability of my various characters in all different settings, create an obtainable goal for me to strive for, etc. Some of you may try to argue with me as to what effect this will have on my or other peoples willingness to continue playing the game after they achieve this or that goal once the feeling of "what now" has set in. Well, one could also argue that an end game raider might feel the same once he or she has beaten all the content that is out. For both extremes, there is stilll plenty to do and experience within the EQ community and once you include the community, there will always be something to keep you playing. If not, then you have probably already quit by now. Therefore, I think it is a moot point.Thank you for taking the time to read my post. Have a great day!

GangleG

02-12-2009, 02:59 PM

I'm sorry but if the T2 shard armour sets were upgraded anymore than they are now, they would be equal, if not better than the fabled sets (not including the critical mitigation since it's useless to group/solo content).

Grong

02-12-2009, 04:32 PM

<cite>urgthock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good morning/afternoon all. This is my first post on the forums. I have been playing EQ2 since Jan 2006 and prior to that EQ1 since 2000. I would just like to say that upon seeing this particular discussion thread, I felt that I had to make a comment. I have been playing SOE's EQ franchise game for almost 9 years now. I have a very demanding job and home life as well. However, I have tried to make time to play this game I love so much. I just have to say that I agree with the original poster completely. I have very limited time to do much more than solo and the occasional group here and there. I am not going to waste mine or anyone elses time trying to argue about whether or not it is or isn't fair for a primarily solo/group playstyle person to be allowed to have the better and higher-end gear that those who raid constantly and tackle the hardest content in the game have. I don't believe that anyone will ever really convince anyone else to change their mind. Since basically all we are doing is putting forth our own ideas and opinions in the hope that SOE might possibly see something they agree with or hear a strong or rational enough argument for; I would like to include my own. I think that there should be a 3rd tier of Void Shard gear. This tier should be fabled quality gear, better than legendary albeit still not quite as good as raid (legendary > T3 Void shard > Raid). This would allow the solo/ group person to feel as though they have something to strive to accomplish and actually CAN accomplish within the playstyle their real life or preference allows; although with a set up like this it would take very long time, much like raiding does, just without the need to include 11-23 other people who you don't want to inconvenience with your need to go afk for 20 mins at a time because your son is asking you to come help him with something, or your pregnant wife wants you to go get her something to eat, or a million other things that can and do pop up in some peoples lives. It can be made to cost a very high number of void shards and require one to have to go through the first 2 tiers to get better and better gear (much like the raiders do to progress in the raid setting). To those who claim I or any other soloer shouldn't need it, I can only say I disagree with you and I believe this would be a viable option to obtaining gear that would help me to do a better job while soloing or grouping, have more fun, increase the speed in accomplishing things and survivability of my various characters in all different settings, create an obtainable goal for me to strive for, etc. Some of you may try to argue with me as to what effect this will have on my or other peoples willingness to continue playing the game after they achieve this or that goal once the feeling of "what now" has set in. Well, one could also argue that an end game raider might feel the same once he or she has beaten all the content that is out. For both extremes, there is stilll plenty to do and experience within the EQ community and once you include the community, there will always be something to keep you playing. If not, then you have probably already quit by now. Therefore, I think it is a moot point.Thank you for taking the time to read my post. Have a great day!</blockquote>Thank you Urgthock for your nice, civil post. I, for one, could use your post as an example on how to post without throwing some emotional attachment into my words. Being civil and respectful lends a certain authority to a post, no matter how much I may disagree with someone.Thanks for being a good example.Now for the content of your post. Yes, some think that there is no real life situation that prevents anyone from grouping/raiding. Believe me, with a housefull of people, especially young'uns, you never know when AFK is needed and for how long. Like you said, I also do not want to group with 5 other people or 23 other people, knowing they are going to have to wait on me quite a few times as I take care of something at home. The game is always at the mercy of my home life and I am sure others do appreciate the fact that I do not group with people when my situation requires me to go afk so often.

Gisallo

02-12-2009, 06:30 PM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's the thing though. SOE KNOWS that people are going to say "dang the Queen was stingy again with her chest I want item X." These people will keep running that instance over and over again trying to get this item. They will keep paying their 14.99 a month in order to keep running that instance in order to get that item to finally drop.Or they will get frustrated and quit the game... it happens all the time.Now if this were not the case and they started popping up on the broker why should they run that instance over and over again trying to get that item? The answer is no reason. It would likely be easier just to wait for it to pop on the broker and then spend the plat that is so easy to come by in this game. This then eliminates the grind and that much sooner someone is going to become bored and not pay their 14.99. Thats the main thrust of my point. The grinds firm place in their business model. The system is the classic skinner box, different levels of reward for different levels of tasks. The more difficult the scenario becomes the greater the reward. If you can just buy the reward, outside of the box so to speak, the classical psychological model breaks down and so does, to an extent, the business model.It worked fine without the huge amount of no-trade items before so I disagree. Did you start playing in 2007 or just started to post here in 2007? I need to know that because if you started playing in 2007 then your perspective of the game is completely different from me who started playing the game 2 weeks after it was released. Back then the raiding guilds sold fabled drops to provide the guild with much needed money. That is no longer the case. Now the raiding guilds no longer need the money from selling items. And the grind you mentioned is boring to a lot of people, its the quests that keep most of us coming back for more, that and the lore.Also I find it funny that Lethe poopoos on itemization here BUT complains about its effect on brawlers and dps classes elsewhere. Itemization is VERY necessary. Try getting a group in just "normal" legendary gear through even the easiest of the Guk instances or Antrebe's Fabled Korsha....NOT going to happen.Then people having better gear is needed, regardless of how they get it. If you only play PUGs then its even MORE important. If you group only with friends you know the gear and abilities of the people your playing with and that makes it easier. Not everyone needs or wants "progression" as you put it. And as long as you are grouping with the same people most of the time, you have your own microscopical world of "progression" and it shouldn't bother you at all what everyone else is doing.</blockquote>And to add to that, since T2 shard gear is so "good" ... and is extremely easy to get, why not have Legendary on the broker that compares with it or is a bit better? Hoarding Platinum is for Dragons, not for Adventurers.</blockquote>My experience is general MMO's. I played EQ1 for years, moved onto other games to include WOW, and City of Heroes etc. then came back to EQ2. I did play EQ2 at launch but left after a few months because my computer had issues with EQ1 at the time let alone EQ2. The fact I didn't start posting or play this game in a consistent fashion until 2007 does change the model for MMO's. Heck there have been books, psychological journal articles, even 20/20 specials about the essential Skinner's box nature of these games and how people keep forking over their money.As for when I get my item what keeps me going in there. Ummm the community. Okay I have my Gift to the Queen, now my Buddy needs the Jarsath shoulders, my other buddy still needs Praetors guard.As for your last part its pretty telling. I am not saying I or anyone else wants to not be able to put that "Gift to the Queen" fabled item on the broker. Heck even though plat is easy to get there are still some things pretty expensive. On my server one of the masters I want is on the broker for 300 plat. Just one of them and I need a few...for 3 characters. The reason this won't happen is because SOE want people to keep forking over their 14.99. Yes a few people may get frustrated and leave but all of the studies by people far smarter than you and me have all showed that a tiered system of reward = difficulty (when balanced right and this is now a good balance RE2 as someone else mentioned was a little off on the difficulty scale) keeps more people, and arguably attracts more to pay their 14.99, than it loses. So the community stays stable at worse or grows (as long as someone doesn't come along and build a better mousetrap).

Gisallo

02-12-2009, 06:42 PM

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thank you Urgthock for your nice, civil post. I, for one, could use your post as an example on how to post without throwing some emotional attachment into my words. Being civil and respectful lends a certain authority to a post, no matter how much I may disagree with someone.Thanks for being a good example.Now for the content of your post. Yes, some think that there is no real life situation that prevents anyone from grouping/raiding. Believe me, with a housefull of people, especially young'uns, you never know when AFK is needed and for how long. Like you said, I also do not want to group with 5 other people or 23 other people, knowing they are going to have to wait on me quite a few times as I take care of something at home. The game is always at the mercy of my home life and I am sure others do appreciate the fact that I do not group with people when my situation requires me to go afk so often.</blockquote>Okay this is where I bow out of this conversation. Numerous posts made by people regarding the system of risk vs reward in this game have been logical, civil, respectful and coherent. Heck some have even said "I am not claiming that this is right or wrong, only that it appears to be SOE's thoughts on the matter". However these posts, since they contradict your views and desires suddenly are not as valid or authoritative as one that supports your view point.Many of us understood your issues. Understood that you may have something that makes it hard for your to group (I mentioned a person who is an in home care giver for an elderly person) and yet noted, that due to the marketing model SOE has, regretably everything you want will likely never happen but that there is room for compromise and even improvement in some of the loot drops. This however apparently does not fit your definition of civil though because it does not tell you what you want to hear. As you are the OP I will show you the respect I always try to show to them and leave what is in essence your thread. Farewell and good luck

Grong

02-12-2009, 08:58 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thank you Urgthock for your nice, civil post. I, for one, could use your post as an example on how to post without throwing some emotional attachment into my words. Being civil and respectful lends a certain authority to a post, no matter how much I may disagree with someone.Thanks for being a good example.Now for the content of your post. Yes, some think that there is no real life situation that prevents anyone from grouping/raiding. Believe me, with a housefull of people, especially young'uns, you never know when AFK is needed and for how long. Like you said, I also do not want to group with 5 other people or 23 other people, knowing they are going to have to wait on me quite a few times as I take care of something at home. The game is always at the mercy of my home life and I am sure others do appreciate the fact that I do not group with people when my situation requires me to go afk so often.</blockquote>Okay this is where I bow out of this conversation. Numerous posts made by people regarding the system of risk vs reward in this game have been logical, civil, respectful and coherent. Heck some have even said "I am not claiming that this is right or wrong, only that it appears to be SOE's thoughts on the matter". However these posts, since they contradict your views and desires suddenly are not as valid or authoritative as one that supports your view point.Many of us understood your issues. Understood that you may have something that makes it hard for your to group (I mentioned a person who is an in home care giver for an elderly person) and yet noted, that due to the marketing model SOE has, regretably everything you want will likely never happen but that there is room for compromise and even improvement in some of the loot drops. This however apparently does not fit your definition of civil though because it does not tell you what you want to hear. As you are the OP I will show you the respect I always try to show to them and leave what is in essence your thread. Farewell and good luck</blockquote>Okay-this is where I need to practice civilty even though every part of me is screaming--What the Heck? How in the world do you get that I think anyone else's post is not valid or authoratative by simply thanking a brand new poster for a very nice first post. That had nothing to do with whether he agrees with me or not. I even said I myself need to learn to post in that manner. /bonk.

Faenril

02-13-2009, 06:30 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GangleG wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote>And why not? Thats what I've been asking over and over again and not one of you has given me a (IMO) legitimate answer to what it hurts.Other than the people who have [Removed for Content] issues, who does it hurt?Gisallo said it will break the game. Your a 2004 player, did the rare (as in only happened once in a blue moon) fabled that used to show up on the broker from raild guilds looking for plat hurt anything? Did it make the game go bankrupt and dissapear? Or are we still playing 5 years (sic) later?</blockquote>Because if everyone was running around with raid gear, it would trivialise any content. You would have players screwing progression of solo, heroic, and even raid content because they are already geared out and have no challenges.All the hard work that raid guilds have put in to learning encounters and spending hundreds of plat on repairs would be a wasted exercise now that everyone and their pets have the most powerful items in game.If players want the gear, then they should have to put in the work that everyone else has.</blockquote>Like I said before I'm not talking about raid gear. I think only raiders need it or deserve it, you want some? Go raid. It's as simple as that. However legendary only makes it a bit easier to do content. So there should be more of the currently no-trade legendary in circulation that comes from instances. Because as I also have said before... shard legendary makes it a moot point anyway.It will also give the people who love instances and hate questing/harvesting/crafting a way to make more plat.</blockquote>I have no problems with this except for the gear from the harder heroic zones: Palace of Ferhzul and Outer Stronghold; these items are pretty much on par and better than some raid gear.</blockquote>If that is the case, then something went wrong with the raid gear during development and testing. And the raid gear should be boosted.</blockquote>Not really. Killing Varsoon or cleaning Outer Stronghold is much harder than killing the 1st named in Palace or TOMC.

Eugam

02-13-2009, 07:51 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even if mobs would drop tradable fabeld the raiders would rather transmute it then sell it.</blockquote>Not true, there is more than enough no-trade fabled loot that gets transmuted to cover a whole guilds adornments, so we would rather see a fabled item for 250+ plat than a mana for 40p.Its not like raiders particularly care who gets items that we don't even want for free...</blockquote>This wasnt against raiders. This is how i think it would work out. In DoF and KoS fabled was sold, but the average player couldnt afford more then one item till next expansion.There is no soloer who can afford 250 plat for a single fabled item. The item is outleveled faster then a soloer can make that money. A soloer even has a hard time to buy a 40pp mana. The best adornments are useless. The much cheper one has only 5 less healing or what else stat. The expensive shinies are now in instances. 250 plat are almost 2000 T8 workorders == almost 100 hours to play or 1000 times doing the repeatable quests for Tupta and Grobb <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> All that efford for a fabled helmet with 10-12% better stats ?A few will spend silly amounts into RMT, but i still think the most items will end as transmuted raws.

Noaani

02-13-2009, 09:02 AM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even if mobs would drop tradable fabeld the raiders would rather transmute it then sell it.</blockquote>Not true, there is more than enough no-trade fabled loot that gets transmuted to cover a whole guilds adornments, so we would rather see a fabled item for 250+ plat than a mana for 40p.Its not like raiders particularly care who gets items that we don't even want for free...</blockquote>This wasnt against raiders. This is how i think it would work out. In DoF and KoS fabled was sold, but the average player couldnt afford more then one item till next expansion.There is no soloer who can afford 250 plat for a single fabled item. The item is outleveled faster then a soloer can make that money. A soloer even has a hard time to buy a 40pp mana. The best adornments are useless. The much cheper one has only 5 less healing or what else stat. The expensive shinies are now in instances. 250 plat are almost 2000 T8 workorders == almost 100 hours to play or 1000 times doing the repeatable quests for Tupta and Grobb <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> All that efford for a fabled helmet with 10-12% better stats ?A few will spend silly amounts into RMT, but i still think the most items will end as transmuted raws.</blockquote>I know (of) a lot of soloers that happily bought both fabled and mythical updates for their epic, spending upwards of 1k plat to some guilds for them. I also know how these players make their money.There are players that make 50p+ a week from simply playing the market. They by items that they know are priced below the average sale price for them and simply mark them up. With the right set of broker searches, and a good market knowledge, this money is made in a few hours a week tops. There are solo players that harvest lower level zones for rares, make them into armour and weapons and sell them off at a massive profit. There are solo players that simply farm solo mobs for chest and body drops, making ~5p per hour for a good DPS class. There are also solo players that will go off to an RMT site to buy plat, as there is with any playstyle.The amount of money a player has is in no way related to his choice of playstyle (solo/group/raid), but it has more of a relation to the amount of time a player spends playing the game actively hunting more coin, and the method they use to do that. I know more poor raiders than I do poor soloers, especially with a new expansion and the repair costs associated with new content.Look at the tradeable items from KoS instances. They started off at 150p on most servers, and mid EoF were down to 50p or less (25p for some items out of Lyceum). For any soloer, that is 25 hours killing aviaks in Barren Sky.