Consolidation of GU51 items related to swashbucklers. [Archive]

Delow

02-04-2009, 12:38 PM

Since our last thread apparently makes it hard to find what we want I'm making a new thread (obviously) containing only that information.Few ground rules on this thread:<ol><li>If you agree, just post and say 'Agreed', don't go on a tangent about something to just end with saying you agree.</li><li>If you have input or see something that should be changed, then post your input but be clear and to the point.</li><li>Do not derail this thread with random crap, discuss what relates to swashbucklers in GU51 only.</li></ol>I will begin:<cite>Odeius@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys complained about the blue aoe so I switched it to encounter. Now you complain that its encounter based <img src="../images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Anyways, I switched it back to blue aoe but you will have to cast it now. So when you don't want the blue aoe you will need to drop the spell buff. Attaching it to hurricane would just make things overly complex and likely lead to a lot of confusion since you are dealing with multiple effects and several other issues.</blockquote>Does this mean when we dont have the buff up that its a single target DD proc or we dont have a proc at all?</blockquote>Still looking for a response to the above.....Also, there are other issues that I would like to see addressed:<ol><li>No temp/secondary effect on our epics proc.<ol><li>The only scout without this on our epics dmg proc effect.</li><li>Our Damage proc is not equal to the temp proc that other scouts have, it just being AE isnt enough.<ol><li>Give us a + accuracy temp buff on it or something.</li><li>Give us a threat decrease like warlocks get...anything.</li></ol></li></ol></li><li>The change to our Threat transfer is unfair, doesn't directly benefit us and is situational. Every class that had a threat transfer received a replacement that directly benefits them all the time when its up. <ol><li>Assassins have a proc evade with -8% hate mod they put on themselves.</li><li>Wizards and Warlocks have a -% hate mod.</li><li>Rangers still have their -% hate mod (ironically its only 5% now so its less then what the assassins get).</li><li>Swashbucklers get a hate manipulation ability we cant cast on ourselves and has a 1 minute recast.</li></ol></li><li>Swashbucklers have no AE hate decreasers but have been given more AE DPS potential, on top of that swashbucklers have lost another ability that made us desirable and kept us alive on raids. (BTW, Aeralik's own words say that swashbucklers are known for Hate transfer on raids).</li><li>The temp haste proc (the Spurious Bravado line) still has +5% hate mod on it.<ol><li>We have no -% hate mod now unless we take the rogue INT line but we always have +5% hate mod yay.</li><li>Still no upgrade to this ability so finding the master is almost impossible now.</li></ol></li><li>The piercing proc on our epic checks against spell crit, this needs to be changed.</li><li>Baffle and Hideaway are not sufficient and need to be changed with the hate changes.<ol><li>Baffle is a 1.6-2.7k threat decrease on a 20s recast timer single target.</li><li>Hideaway is a 2.9k -1 hate position on a 1m recast timer single target.<ol><li>Still no upgrade to this so finding the master is almost impossible now.</li></ol></li></ol></li></ol>*edit for clarification.

Errolflynn

02-04-2009, 12:57 PM

Agreed. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Oxie

02-04-2009, 01:22 PM

Agree.I think you've hit on all the points that we raiding swashies have with our class in regards to our role in what our class brings to a raid force, as well as the issues we have with our mythical weapon.I'd still like to see something done with Sleight of Hand, because it is pretty much useless, even though it seems like it works now. Sleight of Hand would be better if it just emoted giving the mob a wedgie compared to what it does now.One topic that is not mentioned is the other totally useless ranged combat art that we have is Storm of Steel. I've not bothered to even put this CA on my toolbars for the past few YEARS. At least our 20s mez is useful in group situations every once in a blue moon, though it used to be a whole heck of a lot better long ago. Then again, long ago, our ranged CAs were bow-based and not throwing weapon based.

Mirage82001

02-04-2009, 04:01 PM

Agree

Katanalla

02-04-2009, 05:10 PM

Agree! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

Froed20

02-04-2009, 05:42 PM

Well said. I think the biggest issue right now is the lack of an aoe detaunt. With all the aoe's we have, it seems that we should have some way to at least somewhat decrease the aggro we're gaining from the extra targets.

Magooo

02-04-2009, 06:31 PM

I agreeAlso since it is not on the list it is worth repeating in hope of clarification.<cite>Odeius@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odeius@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Does this mean when we dont have the buff up that its a single target DD proc or we dont have a proc at all?</blockquote></blockquote>One more thing. If you are doing away with(changing) our hate transfer, does that mean that you are removing the +5% hate gain on Spurious Bravdo?

DngrMou

02-04-2009, 07:11 PM

1. Agree with the OP.2. Agree with Ruckus re: Ranged attacks. It's a lil' too easy to mash swashie's into a new box, and apparently even easier to forget about them after the fact, and leave us with substandard equipment choices, and abilities. I really do not want to see that happen again.

CenturaEQ

02-04-2009, 07:14 PM

Agree.

Aeralik

02-04-2009, 07:43 PM

<cite>Odeius@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, there are other issues that I would like to see addressed:<ol><li>No temp effect on our epics proc.<ol><li>The only scout without this on our epics dmg proc effect.</li><li>Our Damage proc is not equal to the temp proc that other scouts have, I don't care if its AE.</li></ol></li></ol></blockquote>Your "temp effect" was the fact that it was an aoe proc and that it was the highest damage of the scouts. Since many are against the aoe and want the temp effect I have changed it yet again. It's a very simple single target effect which works in any situation combined with a basic melee crit effect. I've listened to input on this but there is no clear winner and some of the things asked for just dont make sense from a useability standpoint or they are just plain asking for too much. I'm not going to appease everyone regardless of what is done but at this point something simple and straightforward seems to be the best way to go forward.

rogleete

02-04-2009, 07:54 PM

when will this be patched thru to test so we can see it?

Katanalla

02-04-2009, 07:57 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's a very simple single target effect which works in any situation combined with a basic melee crit effec.</blockquote>Meh, although one cannot say they did not see that one coming. atleast I should be critting all the time on orange mobs now /shrug.

OutcastBlade

02-04-2009, 07:59 PM

You know, I wish you would just shut up guys. Our AE proc on our mythical was better than what most got, but you just had to keep complaining about it. The only time I ever had a problem with it was when it was turned to a green proc because you wouldn't stop complaining. Then I was stoked when it became a blue AE again and now we're even more mediocre than before.Thanks guys.Well done./golfclapPS: AERALIK PLEASE DO NOT TURN IT INTO A SINGLE TARGET PROC. MOST OF US WERE HAPPY WITH THE CLICK AE PROC.

rogleete

02-04-2009, 07:59 PM

a valid point was brought up though...what is the deal with a good deal of procs which do melee damage using spell crit for checks? everyone knows only assassin can get over 50% on spell crit.

CenturaEQ

02-04-2009, 08:13 PM

<cite>rogleete wrote:</cite><blockquote>a valid point was brought up though...what is the deal with a good deal of procs which do melee damage using spell crit for checks? everyone knows only assassin can get over 50% on spell crit.</blockquote>No, they do "piercing, slashing, etc" damage. If it was "melee" damage, it would use melee crit. And you should say Predator, not Assassin.@Aeralik: Thank you for the change on Epic, I guess. I wish it was kept as AOE proc, though.Please take a look at the other issues, too. Especially Swarthy line, it's def. lacking in a lot of ways, at the moment. Best is just to scrap it, and make something new of it, that benefit both the caster and the target.

Nefariouzx

02-04-2009, 08:20 PM

Not directed towards anyone in particular but I wish you all would stop crying so much. The AoE proc on our myth was gonna be awsome, now we don't even get that.. We were obviously pushing a little too hard to get more and should've just been happy with the clicky AE proc, look what we have now. MC proc is useless seeing as how most raiding swashies are at or near cap. PLZ Aeralik change it back to the AoE proc!

DngrMou

02-04-2009, 08:42 PM

<cite>noise_3 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not directed towards anyone in particular but I wish you all would stop crying so much. The AoE proc on our myth was gonna be awsome, now we don't even get that..</blockquote>This is not directed at you, but there are many valid concerns being expressed over changes being made to the swash class as part of a rebalancing issue that does not even pertain to us. The only time I don't use Swarthy Disorder is when soloing. When grouping/raiding, it's a must have. Why is this being taken away? This is a nice ability we bring to groups/raids. Why do we have to suffer this loss solely to benefit other classes? What do we get in return? People are, as you put it, 'crying', because they're worried, and not without reason.

Myster

02-04-2009, 08:45 PM

I just wanted to voice my disapointment at losing the AE proc as well. I was looking forward to it.I will add in though, that I have not had a chance to test it on test server or anything like that to know how truly effective it is.

jam3

02-04-2009, 08:59 PM

I'd rather have the aoe proc then what others suggested.

Gungo

02-04-2009, 09:05 PM

Gratz on going from one of the biggest damage procs to a crappy single target dd and MC.Because obviously you need more MC, you guys are a bunch of re-res with your complaints.You went from having a unique proc that had huge potential in this expansion to the same crap everyone else got.

Darchon6

02-04-2009, 09:06 PM

Wow...I was perfectly satisfied with the concept of providing us a blue AoE in TSO(activatable or not). Now, it's being nerfed down to a single target effect which buffs an attribute we can already maximize elsewhere - melee crit. Thanks alot to those who complained about it... seriously.My only complaint before was the fact that our damage proc checked against spell crit instead of melee crit, making it worse than it should have been. Please change it back into a blue AoE and make it check against melee crit, then the majority of players will be satisfied.IMO, the primary reason why players complained about wanting BOTH an AoE damage proc and temporary buff is because of our useless traumatic swipe enhancement which does nothing for our dps.Next time, listen to the players with experience.

Rottenapple

02-04-2009, 09:43 PM

Well, if it matters at all, I'd vote to keep the blue AOE proc instead of this new one... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" />

Darchon6

02-04-2009, 09:48 PM

I was hoping that Aeralik would at least *recognize* the problem with spell crit checks on melee damage procs...

DngrMou

02-04-2009, 10:41 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gratz on going from one of the biggest damage procs to a crappy single target dd and MC.Because obviously you need more MC, you guys are a bunch of re-res with your complaints.You went from having a unique proc that had huge potential in this expansion to the same crap everyone else got.</blockquote>Sigh. If you'll go back and read the op, you'll see he was'nt complaining about an AoE effect on the weapon, but a lack of a proc. They are not mutually exclusive. And I don't recall anywhere in these forums where anyone suggested we could have one, but not the other. I don't recall, and maybe you can help with this, where Aeralik asked which one it was we collectively wanted, and warned us that he'd remove one effect, for the other. Sheesh.

Thundy

02-04-2009, 10:46 PM

Runaf

02-04-2009, 11:04 PM

our proc should remain an aoe.

bloodrage42

02-04-2009, 11:07 PM

Aeralik, Please change it to a blue activatable or non activatable aoe proc. And thats all we need. We dont need some bullcrap temporrary enhancement. The tramautic swipe condition is fine. We are an aoe class. The melee crit benefits us in no way. at 105+ crit on raids so thats stupid. But the blue aoe proc clicky is the only thing that makes us unique to the role of our actual class. Please ignore all the ill advised suggestions and leave it at the ae proc. That in itself is a tremendous idea and i think those who complained about it getting better are just bad swashbucklers. Thanks

Delow

02-04-2009, 11:25 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odeius@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, there are other issues that I would like to see addressed:<ol><li>No temp effect on our epics proc.<ol><li>The only scout without this on our epics dmg proc effect.</li><li>Our Damage proc is not equal to the temp proc that other scouts have, I don't care if its AE.</li></ol></li></ol></blockquote>Your "temp effect" was the fact that it was an aoe proc and that it was the highest damage of the scouts. Since many are against the aoe and want the temp effect I have changed it yet again. It's a very simple single target effect which works in any situation combined with a basic melee crit effect. I've listened to input on this but there is no clear winner and some of the things asked for just dont make sense from a useability standpoint or they are just plain asking for too much. I'm not going to appease everyone regardless of what is done but at this point something simple and straightforward seems to be the best way to go forward.</blockquote>Leave the AoE proc......Continue reading Aeralik.People were not against the AoE proc, we were against not having CONTROL over it. You gave us that control (thank you) but you still had not addressed the lack of a "temp effect". I want the AoE proc, the majority of us want the AoE proc. I will live with just having the AoE proc (blue proc toggleable) if it has no "temp effect" with the damage component but I wanted it addressed again. We might have been asking too much for a "temp effect" so continue reading.BTW, its not the Highest damage by very much (yes, I checked). Its only the highest Potential damage of all scouts, the damage potential hinges on multi mob encounters which for raiders that isn't super common currently.You compared us to Warlocks, Warlocks have an AoE proc of almost equal damage and theirs has a "decrease threat priority of target encounter by 1" on top of the damage component. Give us something similiar even if its only 1/3 the decrease threat of baffle.To me the idea behind Swarthy Chaos was this: To inflict high damage and misdirect attention from the swashbuckler who did it. I think this because it had a decent damage DoT effect BUT it enhanced our threat transfer as well. You can keep the the spirit of that by making it similar to the warlock mythical.That is just an example, your own comparison used, of what you could do to satisfy this. It fits us just as it does warlocks, we have great AoE damage potential but our ability to manage that has been lost now. You are choosing to ignore this.You have failed to listen to our input, to truely listen, and the result are hasty changes that are not thought out that cause an uproar among the swashbuckler community. I compiled a list of easy access of the most important changes, just what you wanted. You took it the wrong way, you didn't take a step back and truely evaluate the request. You didn't think about existing mechanics and what you were giving us, even existing mechanics to a class you compared us to.How is Warlocks getting a threat priority decrease with their AoE damage component any different then us wanting something with ours? Warlocks have the greatest damage potential of mage classes epics but they have something with their damage component.I am not trying to attack you in any way, I am just laying out my observations.Again: Leave the AoE proc, with or without a "temp effect" but read and listen to what I said above.

ChickensAreCool

02-04-2009, 11:34 PM

I never post on these forums. But I want to say that I think the blue AoE toggle-able proc was a great idea, and as bloodrage42 said, more in keeping with the role of our class. The temp melee crit effect is far less useful. I too, have enough melee crit already as a raiding swash.I would very much like to see the effect changed back to a toggle-able blue AoE proc.

returntosender

02-04-2009, 11:53 PM

The AE proc would have been great, the MC is a slap in the face.If im posting here somethign bad is happening, most of the time I go with the flow.

AegisCrown

02-05-2009, 01:09 AM

wow now our mythical got ruined. the blue aoe proc was going to be utterly amazing. yes a temp effect would have been nice but not needed.

Tybalt

02-05-2009, 01:24 AM

/Sigh.....disappointed with the communication problems.I think that all swashy's were elated about the blue/green clickable aoe/ae option ;(.

MyopicDuck

02-05-2009, 02:10 AM

Thanks to all of you idiot swashbucklers out there who don't know anything about what is good for our class. You have ruined our potential. I really appreciate it. WHAT IN THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING?

Nib

02-05-2009, 02:20 AM

I'm suprised you guys haven't lynched Odeius yet. Complaining about what would have been the most OP proc in game. Wow.

MyopicDuck

02-05-2009, 02:23 AM

its mind boggling, it really is. A badass blue aoe proc crushes any "temp" proc that any other scout has.

Nefariouzx

02-05-2009, 02:58 AM

<cite>Odeius@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odeius@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, there are other issues that I would like to see addressed:<ol><li>No temp effect on our epics proc.<ol><li>The only scout without this on our epics dmg proc effect.</li><li>Our Damage proc is not equal to the temp proc that other scouts have, I don't care if its AE.</li></ol></li></ol></blockquote>Your "temp effect" was the fact that it was an aoe proc and that it was the highest damage of the scouts. Since many are against the aoe and want the temp effect I have changed it yet again. It's a very simple single target effect which works in any situation combined with a basic melee crit effect. I've listened to input on this but there is no clear winner and some of the things asked for just dont make sense from a useability standpoint or they are just plain asking for too much. I'm not going to appease everyone regardless of what is done but at this point something simple and straightforward seems to be the best way to go forward.</blockquote>Leave the AoE proc......Continue reading Aeralik.People were not against the AoE proc, we were against not having CONTROL over it. You gave us that control (thank you) but you still had not addressed the lack of a "temp effect". I want the AoE proc, the majority of us want the AoE proc. I will live with just having the AoE proc (blue proc toggleable) if it has no "temp effect" with the damage component but I wanted it addressed again. We might have been asking too much for a "temp effect" so continue reading.BTW, its not the Highest damage by very much (yes, I checked). Its only the highest Potential damage of all scouts, the damage potential hinges on multi mob encounters which for raiders that isn't super common currently.You compared us to Warlocks, Warlocks have an AoE proc of almost equal damage and theirs has a "decrease threat priority of target encounter by 1" on top of the damage component. Give us something similiar even if its only 1/3 the decrease threat of baffle.To me the idea behind Swarthy Chaos was this: To inflict high damage and misdirect attention from the swashbuckler who did it. I think this because it had a decent damage DoT effect BUT it enhanced our threat transfer as well. You can keep the the spirit of that by making it similar to the warlock mythical.That is just an example, your own comparison used, of what you could do to satisfy this. It fits us just as it does warlocks, we have great AoE damage potential but our ability to manage that has been lost now. You are choosing to ignore this.You have failed to listen to our input, to truely listen, and the result are hasty changes that are not thought out that cause an uproar among the swashbuckler community. I compiled a list of easy access of the most important changes, just what you wanted. You took it the wrong way, you didn't take a step back and truely evaluate the request. You didn't think about existing mechanics and what you were giving us, even existing mechanics to a class you compared us to.How is Warlocks getting a threat priority decrease with their AoE damage component any different then us wanting something with ours? Warlocks have the greatest damage potential of mage classes epics but they have something with their damage component.I am not trying to attack you in any way, I am just laying out my observations.Again: Leave the AoE proc, with or without a "temp effect" but read and listen to what I said above.</blockquote>Do you ever shut up? I'm positive that you have already done enough for us, plz in the future just keep your thoughts to yourself.

ImaBlastU

02-05-2009, 04:04 AM

Daron

02-05-2009, 04:28 AM

Aeralik, for the love of god, roll a swash. You CLEARLY don't understand what our class's role is.

Tadas

02-05-2009, 04:35 AM

Grats to all the whiners that got the proc changed, you have killed an amazing effect. Hopefully this gets changed back to the blue/green aoe clicky, that was a perfect proc for us.

Ujina

02-05-2009, 05:08 AM

And why not more flexibility in our mythical ?I mean the clicky giving us a blue AoE proc is a VERY GOOD idea.I agree that that AoE proc + some temp buff would be OP.But what if when the AoE proc buff is on, the temp buff+ single dd is off ? and when temp buff is on, aoe proc is off.Anyway if i had to choose, I would take the blue AoE proc clicky on mythical !And please, take another look at our new swarthy disorder line.

Stray

02-05-2009, 05:45 AM

Aeralik,Ive been playing a swash as my main toon almost since EQ2 day 1. I usualy dont post here, but reading all this - it's ridiculous.1) Most average and above swashies will manage to cap MC while raiding. We have no need for more.2) Please listen to the experienced players. You know who they are. Select a few and talk to them about this stuff - in game. Don't be impressed by huge chunks of text from others.and oh yeah - The blue AoE effect is awesome. We are an AoE class. Please restore it and be done with it.

DngrMou

02-05-2009, 07:50 AM

<cite>MyopicDuck wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks to all of you idiot swashbucklers out there who don't know anything about what is good for our class. You have ruined our potential. I really appreciate it. WHAT IN THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING?</blockquote>Well excuse me, Mr. Myopic.....but if you'll go back and read the thread on swashy's here, you'll see that Aeralik put a proc on the mythical that people have been asking all along NOT BE PLACED ON OUR WEAPON. Also, reporting you for trolling, just so you know.

DngrMou

02-05-2009, 08:14 AM

<cite>Niber wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm suprised you guys haven't lynched Odeius yet. Complaining about what would have been the most OP proc in game. Wow.</blockquote>Mostly because this change is not his fault. I still agree 100% with his OP.A few people elsewhere in this forum complained. Not a majority, a few. And even those few asked that any change not result in a crappy MC proc. Aeralik managed to find just those posts, and managed to put in place something no one was asking for, no one wanted, and most explicitly asked not to be placed on the mythical.Now we have the 'Serious Raiders' demanding that Aeralik listen only to them, (and ignore the other 99% of swashbucklers that have a vested interest in this class), and placing the blame for this everywhere except where it belongs. (This is not directed at you btw...there's a post a bit further down). These 'serious raiders' need to get it through their self inflated heads that they represent a tiny fraction of swashbucklers, their word is not law, and they have no more right to demand changes to this class than anyone else. We should all be in this together, and instead of demanding why this change was made, we're at each other's throats. I predict two things will come of this:1. This thread will be locked, shortly.2. Aeralik will use this thread as justification to do nothing in the future.

HanssDam

02-05-2009, 09:16 AM

As one of the silent mayority of the Swashbucklers who rarly post here I ask you too, please change it back to an blue AoE with the option to turn it off.I was very happy with it (and just with it), and I guess most of the players out there was. It was better than a medicore single proc and a temp buff together. And the situations where we would have to turn it off are rarly too.

MyopicDuck

02-05-2009, 09:22 AM

Wow DngrmouseI don't care what you think, we didn't need any kind of temp buff or anything else special on our myth. People are just crying for the sake of crying, and now we have jack! Oh and I reported you for trolling.

CenturaEQ

02-05-2009, 09:31 AM

There is no reason to blame Odeius for all this, because it's not just his fault.And about the change to Single Target Damage, +15 MC, is just a misunderstanding, imo. No one wanted it changed from AOE.It was great as AOE, and I really hope we get it back. And about the temp thing, personally, I just wanted some kind of deaggro on it and I can't see that as asking for too much, but okey. I'll be fine with just an AOE (and all others, I guess?) proc. Exactly how it was before the change to Single Target Damage, +15 MC.And lets not get this thread locked too...EDIT: Typo.

Nailoo

02-05-2009, 09:49 AM

Aeralik, I am yet another swashy who hardly posts anything in here, but I felt the need to now. Please don't take away the blue aoe, <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> I don't even care if it's clicky or not. I have range maxed out and don't have any problems accidentally grabbing nearby mobs in raids. Please, give us our aoe back, like others have said here, swashys are an aoe class and MOST of us we're really excited about having that aoe on our myths.Thank you

Errolflynn

02-05-2009, 10:02 AM

I'm sorry I must be blind. I just DON'T see where the OP said "please take away our AE proc". Add a temp buff yes but NOT take away the AE proc. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />

DeemonEQ

02-05-2009, 10:52 AM

I would also like to add my vote for reinstating the Blue clicky AoE on the mythical. Im not worried about anything extra being added.It defines us as the AoE scout and Im happy with that...Heres to hoping it will be fixed soon!

Webbed

02-05-2009, 11:13 AM

I as well hardly post here and have been following this issue very closely. I was VERY HAPPY with the blue aoe clicky. It was perfect addressed all the initial issues of the proc not being controlled. We can control it now Please turn it back to an blue aoe clicky.

Terron

02-05-2009, 11:21 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your "temp effect" was the fact that it was an aoe proc and that it was the highest damage of the scouts. Since many are against the aoe and want the temp effect I have changed it yet again. It's a very simple single target effect which works in any situation combined with a basic melee crit effect. I've listened to input on this but there is no clear winner and some of the things asked for just dont make sense from a useability standpoint or they are just plain asking for too much. I'm not going to appease everyone regardless of what is done but at this point something simple and straightforward seems to be the best way to go forward.</blockquote>I was going to post about how I disagreed with Odeius, but this is worse.You call yourself "The Mechanics Guy" and that seems accurate. You are good with them, but you seem too concerned with mechanics and not to give enough thought to the feel of the changes. That is a general complaint of mine about these changes, but since this thread is about swashbucklers I will stick to them. I do have a swashie who has her mythical.I understand the need for vastly reducing passive hate management, but it is current a major aspect of our class, which was confirmed by it being boosted by out epic weapon. By removing it you are changing the feel of our class.What is your vision of the role of Swashbucklers?It seemed to be AE DPS, but my swashie has fewer AE abilities than my guard - both have 2 blue damage CAs, a multiattack buff and a green taunt, but the guard also has a green taunt with damage and a AE mutual root and debuff. You are also removing our best AE deaggro tool. Still it is a theme of the class and the blue AE on the weapon was reasonable once it was controllable so that we wouldn't have to unequip our epic when there is a risk of pulling through walls.The latest one has nothing that is special to swashies. It would work as well and be as fitting for brigands and predators. It is simple, straightforward and bad.A controllable blue AE was unusual and special. It wasn't quite perfect, but it wasn't bad.Swashies are not a pure AE DPS class. We shouldn't be competeing on pure DPS for raid spots. It is the extra utility we bring (along with fairly good DPS) that should get us a spot. We still have a bit of aggro control (the blame line), and a lot of debuffs. Big single target debuffing of the mob's defense is brigand's speciality. Attaching a small AE debuff of the mobs' offense to a somewhat smaller controllable blue AE damage proc would be perfect, e.g. a debuff of attack speed and/or DPS (like guard have without the drawback). Or an aggro control effect somewhat similar to the blame line - damge and +hate with current target if that target is a fighter.

Delow

02-05-2009, 11:57 AM

Please, if you don't have anything constructive to add to this thread do not respond.If you want to attack me for gathering the main points of what we had in the last thread fine. Do it in PMs, Tells or ingame mail but DO NOT POLLUTE THIS THREAD WITH ATTACKS! You help nobody by doing that and it only hurts us more.Aeralik.....Put the AoE back, you were praised for making it what we had asked for before (the blue AoE that is toggle able) I dont know why you would think we wanted it changed to what you just did....

wes03

02-05-2009, 11:58 AM

Please do not go live with this single target, melee crit change to the mythical!! People in legendary gear can get their melee crit high enough, and raiders are capped. 90% of swash's were happy with it being an AoE proc, toggleable or not. I'd say just make it toggleable AoE proc so that the ppl whining can turn it off when they don't want it./vote for AoE proc!

MyopicDuck

02-05-2009, 12:15 PM

Can we go back to the first change you made? You know, the good one?edited for kindness

Lel

02-05-2009, 12:18 PM

/agree. Please bring toggleable AoE proc back

Raidyen

02-05-2009, 12:35 PM

"edited" After reading this entire thread, and going back and checking some of the other threads, I cant find a SINGLE swashbukler asking for a single target proc with a crappy temp buff. Sure some wanted to add a temp buff, but nobody said take away our aoe and give us one. The communication here is horrible. Arent there supposed to be CR people watching threads all day, and not only banning people, but also getting a feel for what the "community" wants, and relaying that information to the devs? Please Aerlik, i ask that you consider ALL the swashies input, and find me one swashy that asked for a single target. That was only thing i had to look forward to with the up coming changes you are making to our class. The messed up thing is that the Hate transfer change is the LARGEST issue with most swashies, however it has yet to be addressed in anyway.

Lunah

02-05-2009, 01:01 PM

As someone with multiple mains who has currently been playing my new swashy (betrayed brigand at 80) I have come to love this class. I was VERY excited about the aoe blue clickie on our weapon. And am very sad to see it has already gone before even making it to live. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I have multiple epic weapons from various classes and think the blue aoe clickie was PERFECT for a swash. Please do change it back and dont worry about any silly temporary buff. I play my swashy because she is fun and a bit unique compared to my other two scouts...the aoe clickie proc was going to make her even more so. So dont let just a few spoil what many would like to see...even those of us who rarely post have surfaced to support the blue aoe clickie!

Kaofeiyun

02-05-2009, 02:04 PM

This is my first time posting to these forums, but the ONLY change I was looking forward to as a swash with the upcoming update was the blue aoe clicky effect on the mythical. Somehow you managed to sift through pages upon pages of input and cherry pick exactly what people said they did not want and gave us exactly that in place of what was almost unanimously agreed to be a unique and desired effect. Just change it back and let it be since its obvious that no other input (such as us being stuck with useless TS enhancements or our broken and near worthless SoH 80 spell) is going to be listened to.

Tybalt

02-05-2009, 02:14 PM

Aeralik, I think we all understand how hard it is to please everyone.But, if you really look at the posts and talk to any swash in game. I think about 90% of the swashy's were stoked aboutthe blue aoe/green ae clickable option on the mythical. Pretty much everyone was happy about that.Instead of the dd/mc buff just keep it the way that it was with aoe/ae clickable please sir.If you read through this thread its in plain sight, everyone was happy about it. I ask you to please consider the majorityof swashy's here, ignore the ones with verbal attacks and wimpers.

Bhugg

02-05-2009, 02:48 PM

Throwing my 2 cents in here also. Please go back to the blue AOE and make it clickable.Thanks,Oochi

Awlis

02-05-2009, 03:01 PM

another rare poster here.. asking for the effect to be put back to an aoe clicky proc please.. was what was exciting me about gu51.. i didnt see anyone complain about it either.please please put back the aoe proc.

CaMCyCaMu

02-05-2009, 03:27 PM

My first post there. Leave us the clickable blue aoe proc, only this really can personify our class. And give us more and more aoe encounters, thats all what i need as a swashy <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> Sorry about my bad english <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />

OutcastBlade

02-05-2009, 03:28 PM

Aeralik is prolly laughing at us at this point. LOL I turned the swashies against themselves. LOL! That will show em LOL!Don't mess with Aeralik LOL!Aeralik do us a massive favor, and put the AE back on the mythical. Thank you much.I blew up on Odeius on Flames and then I spent some time rereading all of his input and all of the input of the swashies who I bashed, and I have to offer an apology to everyone here including Odeius. Aeralik every single response you have made to the issues presented has been so off base its scary that you're the guy in charge of balancing us against the other classes when it comes to dps, utility and desirability.Some of us live and breathe this class. Please consider our input and read it all. Address it all and stop being so vindictive on us./roll assassin/lastname Kozak

Raidyen

02-05-2009, 04:21 PM

<cite>Odeius@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote> <ol><li>The change to our Threat transfer is unfair, doesn't directly benefit us and is situational. Every class that had a threat transfer received a replacement that directly benefits them all the time when its up. <ol><li>Assassins have a proc evade with -8% hate mod they put on themselves.</li><li>Wizards and Warlocks have a -% hate mod.</li><li>Rangers still have their -% hate mod (ironically its only 5% now so its less then what the assassins get).</li><li>Swashbucklers get a hate manipulation ability we cant cast on ourselves and has a 1 minute recast.</li></ol></li><li>Swashbucklers have no AE hate decreasers but have been given more AE DPS potential, on top of that swashbucklers have lost another ability that made us desirable and kept us alive on raids. (BTW, Aeralik's own words say that swashbucklers are known for Hate transfer on raids).</li><li>The temp haste proc (the Spurious Bravado line) still has +5% hate mod on it. <ol><li>We have no -% hate mod now unless we take the rogue INT line but we always have +5% hate mod yay.</li><li>Still no upgrade to this ability so finding the master is almost impossible now.</li></ol></li><li>The piercing proc on our epic checks against spell crit, this needs to be changed.</li><li>Baffle and Hideaway are not sufficient and need to be changed with the hate changes. <ol><li>Baffle is a 1.6-2.7k threat decrease on a 20s recast timer single target.</li><li>Hideaway is a 2.9k -1 hate position on a 1m recast timer single target. <ol><li>Still no upgrade to this so finding the master is almost impossible now.</li></ol></li></ol></li></ol></blockquote>Ok i have to assume the Aerlik has the games best interests in mind when he makes changes, so i have some faith that the AoE proc will come back. Atleast i have to have that mind set or im going to throw something.That said the rest of the issues that are on this post are dead on. The key one is the Hate transfer change. If this was changed into some form of AoE hate maniuplation, even if it is a temp thing it would go a long ways towards solving the first 2 issues that Odeius brought up.The second major issue is the spell crit problems. This is an overall game balance issue that needs to be addressed at some point. I dont expect anything to happen in the short term though.The minor things like Bravado, Baffle and hideaway are things i am willing to ignore for now if it means we can get some serious time to look at the Swashy Distraction changes.So please,1. change back our Mythical to the AoE. If you want to add a small debuff to it, thats fine. If you feel thats going to unbalance the game, and its not worth the trouble to do that in order to make the entire swashy community happy, well then thats your choice, and we will go with it. But turning it into single target is not the answer.2. Please spend a little time looking into the swashy loosing thier hate transfer, and gaining nothing in return.

Noaani

02-05-2009, 04:24 PM

<cite>Kanolth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aeralik is prolly laughing at us at this point. LOL I turned the swashies against themselves. LOL! That will show em LOL!Don't mess with Aeralik LOL!</blockquote>IMO a better thing to take from this thread is to not argue so much with your own class, about your own class when changes are on the line.The easiest way to do this is for some bright person to look at a change, work out what it will do and when, find out how much of an increase it will provide, and post that information in full so that everyone can read it.No one bothered to do that with your mythical changes, so people whom could not be bothered working it out, or were unable to work it out were posting outright uninformed opinions on it.Thats never helpful...

Andric_D

02-05-2009, 05:32 PM

AE proc + reduced agro control + no ae detaunt isthe problem - The AE itself is fantastic if it was on live now but with our increased agro problems the AE in a multi mob encounter situation is not ideal. The prefered solution is imo to keep the ae - blue clicky or encounter - but give us the controls to manipulate at least our own level of hate to the encounter. As it is after the hate changes and our inate hate building potential agro management will be the major limitation on our use/surviability and overall dps. Lots commenting on the AE obviously havent tried test and the ammount of hate gain with hurricane, proc, ae abil;ities and debuffs is very significant and our test agro management tools are woefully lacking.

Xivain

02-05-2009, 06:29 PM

meh i think our ae proc should've never been removed in the first place.. iirc we are meant to be an aoe class hence hurricane..

Nefariouzx

02-05-2009, 07:19 PM

Aeralik, plz give us back the AE proc, or at least let us know that we aren't getting it back....

Katanalla

02-05-2009, 07:38 PM

Yarr I'm just sitting in my chair hoping to just get aoe proc again.... Its like gasoline, you complain about 1.44 gasoline, then it goes up to 4.08, you complain even more, then it goes down to 1.56, then back up and settles at 2.02 and people are happy to pay it.... Hint: look at post 2000 election - post 2008 election on that reference. I don't know where I was going with that in all honestyAnyway, I would be more than happy with just the AoE proc if its either that or having 115ish crit mod in raid all the time hehe. And if it affects your decision you're my favorite Dev named Aeralik <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />By the way, posts in this thread are odd... Like I'm expecting a group hug within the hour to come out of this. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Madacius

02-05-2009, 08:36 PM

First time posting..just wanted to say i hope we can get the proc changed back to a toggled blue aoe...hell..even a permanent blue aoe proc at this point after all the confusion and changes made. Cant let a few people who have no clue ruin such a good thing for the majority. Blue aoe ftw = P

DngrMou

02-05-2009, 09:34 PM

<cite>Madacius wrote:</cite><blockquote>First time posting..just wanted to say i hope we can get the proc changed back to a toggled blue aoe...hell..even a permanent blue aoe proc at this point after all the confusion and changes made. Cant let a few people who have no clue ruin such a good thing for the majority. Blue aoe ftw = P</blockquote>Same suggestion to you....read through this thread, before you start accusing people of having no clue.

Mizou

02-05-2009, 10:36 PM

i have never complained about a not existing temp proc - i just asked why. i was happy when Aeralik changed it to a clicky cause this was always the thoughts of many swashys ive heared. so yeah ok i didnt get an answer why no temp buff but i think from the view of all swashys where ever we are it was totaly worth to get that aoe proc since we are aoe dps with alot single target debuffs.i still think predator / rogue tso endability should have been switched but i can live with this.i still think our myth swipe effect needs to be changed to lungbleed and the tso swathy swipe [Removed for Content] also added to lungbleed. (this would make an insane debuff i know but - but !! swipe is still used by brig AND swash)or tell me why this all is like it is currentlyi can aggree with the wants / needs on swarthy line + spurious bravado hateincrease (i just want an answer here: ist it such an insane buff so u need a disadvantage for us on it ? if so i can live with it)hideaway realy needs an upgradethats all i can add here.Mizou

Daron

02-05-2009, 10:38 PM

AeralikI will love you long-time if you change it back.

Morinehtar

02-06-2009, 03:13 AM

I love the blue AoE proc on our myth, it gave us something really unique and class defining (and we are an AoE class after all). That really had me all exited and biting my nails waiting for GU 51. Aeralik, the majority of the community will really love you if we get the AoE proc back.

Ansis

02-06-2009, 08:14 AM

Agree.All these changes to blue aoe, encounter, no aoe, shows one thing.Devs know what they want to do with assassins but they have no idea what to do with swashys ...

BaronVonPitviper

02-06-2009, 09:13 AM

To Whom it May Concern,I wish to formally comment on my desire to see the swashy epic weapon upgraded. In particular, I agree with may of the other posters here that the blue area of effect proc is the addition that would be the best for us. I definately do not want a green encounter effect proc. That would be totally undesireable. It's a cool idea to have the DD proc click on or click off depending on your situtation, but in all honesty I dont mind what you decide upon.As for the temporary buff that some were looking for, I don't mind what it ends up being; as I feel every last little bit of anything helps. Whether it's + MC, +piercing skill, DA, DPS, accuracy, -/+ threat, slow target(s), +power/hp tap, +in combat movement speed, or anything else you guys dream up is fine with me. I'm not a min/max player so anything would be super cool.In essence, if the development team takes away the blue ae proc it's a deal breaker. That course of action would be viewed as a betrayal between SoE development and the swashbuckler community. It would go against the very essence of our class and pretty much would scream that the development team has some sort of spite towards the class as a whole. Personally, I might even hold a grudge so strongly and use this opportunity to step away from the game and find some other hobbies to persue.Thank you for reading./salute

Noaani

02-06-2009, 10:23 AM

TBh I am half expecting Aeralik to jump in and say "HAHA, early April Fools! I didn't change the effect on your mythical, you still have a clicky blue AE proc. Now stop complaining!"That would just be too funny...

Drayas

02-06-2009, 11:11 AM

Yet another swash coming out of the woodwork to add my voice to those that want the AOE clicky back. Please, Aeralik reconsider the latest change.Sleepyowl the Swashie

DngrMou

02-06-2009, 12:49 PM

Suggestion for the SoH, and Swarthy Disorder mess too. Leave Swarthy Disorder as it is....if you must nerf it, reduce it...don't eliminate it.....if that won't work, (sigh)....make it a de hate effect, instead of a transfer. Incorporate the New n' Improved Swarthy Disorder effects, (the ones on test), into SoH, and change the hate position swap so that it occurs based on class type of your target, and their position on the hate list relative to the swashbuckler:If target is fighter, and if target occupies a position on the hate list LOWER than caster....hate position swap.If target is other than fighter, and if target occupies a position on the hate list HIGHER than caster....hate position swap.Followed by the hate/de hate proc effects on Swarthy Disorder, (on test).....non conditional, of course.Reduce the SoH immunity to 60 seconds, and recast to 30 seconds.

Froed20

02-06-2009, 03:11 PM

Lol... put it in, take it out... I kinda feel sorry for Aer. Still,I have to say that the problem that was encountered with the ae effect was remedied by making it a clicky. I like the ae damage... I just think that there should be an extra component to it like the other mythicals. Most of them have some kind of class-changing or class-defining feature that brings them up to a new step of awesomeness. And for the amount of hell you trudge through to get them, it's pretty warrented imho. Our job as a class (post hate-transfer) is still to dps and debuff. Our ae dps is a great feature that is reflected in the ae clicky. The debuff mechanism should be reflected as well. Since you have recently added a new component to the game in the terms of crit mitigation, maybe it could be a proc that lowers the mob's ability to crit, or lower's their crit damage. Just another suggestion to toss on the pile of growing suggestions.

Puppydog

02-06-2009, 03:24 PM

I have never posted before as well, and am normally not one to complain about development, but in this case I felt the need to post my opinion. The aoe on our mythical really had me excited; now I'm really kinda bummed out. Is there any chance you can change it back to the blue aoe? I have always played a swash as my main, and I'd really hate to see this happen.As for a "temp" buff. We really dont need one. The blue aoe rocked. Maybe attach an small aoe deagro to the aoe proc? Nothing big, just a little something to help with agro in the face of our transfer going away.As for swarthy disorder line and SoH, leave em as is for all I care. I dont want to ask for too much and risk being OP. I find a few uses for SoH anyway.Just as a side note (not asking for any changes on this), with all the tank changes, is there anything happening to the swash in terms of tanking? I occasionally tank instances when tanks are short, just curious to know if that will even be possible now. With all the tanking swash aa options, seems like tanking should be possible. Thanks for reading!

Raidyen

02-06-2009, 05:13 PM

I took these ideas from the many posts out there. I do not claim any of these ideas as my own, Just trying to expand a bit on what the OP started. I am only going to focus the ideas into the Epic proc, and the Swarthy Distraction lines. While we do have some other concerns including detaunts, buffs, and spell crit, these are things that are effecting more then just the swashbuckler class, and will have to be dealt with at a later time. Based on what the Dev's have done for the Paladin over the last 2 weeks after they took away thier class defining ability (amends), i would hope swashbucklers would get the same consideration since we also are loosing a class defining ability (swarthy disorder) Solutions to Swashbuckler epic. 1. Blue AoE that can be toggled on/off (its current form on test) 2. Blue AoE that can be toggled on/offReduce its damage by 5-10%Add in an AoE threat reduction proc that lasts for 10 seconds, similar to a Baffle effect. Could be a proc, or could just be when the epic procs the dmg, it also procs a 1500 point threat reduction on anything it hit. This would make up a little bit for loosing our hate transfer completely, and not getting some form of hate reduction with the fighter changes like all the other scout classes got. 3. Blue AoE that can be toggled on/offReduce its damage by 15-20%Add in an effect that lasts 10 seconds. The effect could be any of the following. Debuff Crit chance % Debuff Crit amount % Debuff Crit Mitigation % (not sure if enough raid mobs with crit mit if any would make this worth it) Grants a 5-10% increase to all Swashy debuffs. Grants a 5-10% increase to Hurricane Procs Solutions to the Swarthy Distraction line. (minor) <ol type="1"><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">Turn it back into a hate transfer, with a reduced value.</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">Leave it in its current form, but allow it to be cast on the swashbuckler.</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">Make the hate reduction Value higher then that hate gain value.</li><li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in;">Make it a buff that is always on, with the effect it currently has. However make it a proc of 2.9 per minute.</li></ol> Swarthy Distraction line, (major)1. Change it into a blue AoE snap and hate gain for the tank (Up to 8 enemies within 15 meters of the caster will change targets to the swashbucklers target for 6 seconds. OR, hate will increase by X amount to the swashbucklers target.) 2. Change it into a temporary hate transfer effect. 20 Second duration, 20% of swashbucklers hate is transferred to target. Anyway just thought I would organize things a little more clearly. Assuming this thread doesnt get locked, lets see if we can get some calm discussions going about real Solutions that the dev team can do fairly easily, and that wont make our class overpowered. We all know what the problems are at this point.

jam3

02-06-2009, 05:39 PM

<cite>Drayas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yet another swash coming out of the woodwork to add my voice to those that want the AOE clicky back. Please, Aeralik reconsider the latest change.Sleepyowl the Swashie</blockquote>i dont want anything esle other than the aoe proc, i dont need some intricate proc with hate for me and someone esle ete etc i just want my AOE

Magooo

02-06-2009, 07:43 PM

So Aeralik is a genious. Instead of addressing ANY of the items on the original post, he changes the one thing we had all agreed was a good thing and turned our attention away from the issues.From reading the post here it appears the plan worked perfectly. He can put the Blue clicky AoE back and we will all be happy to have NOTHING addressed.Great.

SantiagoDraco

02-06-2009, 10:35 PM

Wow, I think I'm late to the party...I'm blown away. The blue AOE clickable effect is NOW a single proc of some sort? With what, crit? I know it's painful to go back and forth but how in the heck did this change occur when everyone was pretty much thrilled with you changing it to blue aoe clicky? Where did things go wrong?Please change it back and be done with it. Thanks.

DngrMou

02-06-2009, 11:50 PM

<cite>Puppydog wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for swarthy disorder line and SoH, leave em as is for all I care. I dont want to ask for too much and risk being OP. I find a few uses for SoH anyway.</blockquote>I don't think we need fear coming out of this over powered. You find little use for SoH in it's current form, most of us, I believe, feel the same way. Since we're not always going to be grouped with 'real' tanks, what then? We still need to have some aggro management capabilities, (something that we can use more often than once every two minutes), since there has been no discussion at all if these changes will also be applied to other classes that can tank too. Most notably us, and brigs.If I no longer have Swarthy Disorder available to me in it's current form, groups with other than the officially approved tank classes are going to be very slow. DPS control is going to be rather farcical......hit mob, long pause. Hit mob, long pause. Hit mob, cast SD, (woo hoo!), hit mob three times, long pause. Let's just hope we don't also have an assassin in the group, or any serious caster dps.This is supposed to be a fighter rebalancing, they should focus their changes where they're needed...on fighters. When I get a flat tire, I don't blame the other 3 perfectly fine tires, and change them, I change the flat one.

Emerix

02-07-2009, 09:06 AM

The only buff effect i would like is flurry.I have 80+ crit self buffed with mostly instance gear ..100+ haste anyway as a swashy and with enough adorns DPS is at 50+ aswell. The only thing that would really help would be flurry really.Since we won't get that anyway please do give us the AE back.toggle-able Blue AE Proc is what i would love personally.That would actually bring swashys back to where we were in EOF . Awesome in AE fights. The only scout class able to put out a lot of AE dps. The warlock of scouts.I like that thought.

Daron

02-08-2009, 07:09 PM

Aeralik, you feel like responding anytime this year??

HanssDam

02-08-2009, 09:58 PM

<cite>Daron@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aeralik, you feel like responding anytime this year??</blockquote>Devs have a workfree weekend too, you know?

Ofhel

02-09-2009, 07:09 AM

When I first saw the changes to our mythical I was pretty pleased. A blue aoe proc, something that I thought were befitting to a swashie; dashing about, striking your opponents all around you. A small chance that you'd get some unwanted adds in a few rare cases, but nothing that couldnt be avoided if you were carefull.Next thing I saw it changed to a green aoe; a change that was very disapointing indeed...Luckily, Aeralik listened to peoples concerns about this and changed it back to blue, and made it toggable. Perfect, couldn't be better.Now I see to my great disapointment that it have been changed to a single taget DD & MC, and for no apearant good reason... Please change it back to toggeable blue aoe, I was happy with that, and i suspect quite a few others were as well.

Terron

02-09-2009, 07:32 AM

<cite>Ofhelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Luckily, Aeralik listened to peoples concerns about this and changed it back to blue, and made it toggable. Perfect, couldn't be better.</blockquote>IMO not quite perfect, but very close.<cite>Ofhelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now I see to my great disapointment that it have been changed to a single taget DD & MC, and for no apearant good reason... Please change it back to toggeable blue aoe, I was happy with that, and i suspect quite a few others were as well. </blockquote>The reason is apparent - "Aeralik listened to peoples concerns" as expressed by the OP and those that agreed with it where a temporary buff was asked for.

Errolflynn

02-09-2009, 07:56 AM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ofhelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Luckily, Aeralik listened to peoples concerns about this and changed it back to blue, and made it toggable. Perfect, couldn't be better.</blockquote>IMO not quite perfect, but very close.<cite>Ofhelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now I see to my great disapointment that it have been changed to a single taget DD & MC, and for no apearant good reason... Please change it back to toggeable blue aoe, I was happy with that, and i suspect quite a few others were as well. </blockquote>The reason is apparent - "Aeralik listened to peoples concerns" as expressed by the OP and those that agreed with it where a temporary buff was asked for.</blockquote>Nobody, including the OP asked for the toggable blue AE to be removed.

DngrMou

02-09-2009, 10:10 AM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The reason is apparent - "Aeralik listened to peoples concerns" as expressed by the OP and those that agreed with it where a temporary buff was asked for.</blockquote>Sigh. No one asked that it be removed. A little bit of reading on your part would have made that abundantly clear.

returntosender

02-09-2009, 09:01 PM

Are we going to get a response to any of the other problems listed or just the change to a completely useless proc on the weapon?A lont time some of the issues above have been mentioned and we hear nothing. Thought we were getting thrown a bone with the blue clicky AE proc but that was to good to be true (and don't say ANY OF US wanted it removed, people had questions that WERE NOT ANSWERED).Anyhow how about the other question responses?

Magooo

02-10-2009, 12:18 AM

We have had seven pages and the only response we recieved was the removal of the only thing we all agreed on. The blue clicky AoE.Oh and the "your asking for too much" line which must mean I dont feel like adressing anything else on the list?<cite>Odeius@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><ol><li>No temp effect on our epics proc.<ol><li>The only scout without this on our epics dmg proc effect.</li><li>Our Damage proc is not equal to the temp proc that other scouts have, I don't care if its AE.<ol><li>Give us a + accuracy temp buff on it or something.</li><li>Give us a threat decrease like warlocks get...anything.</li></ol></li></ol></li><li>The change to our Threat transfer is unfair, doesn't directly benefit us and is situational. Every class that had a threat transfer received a replacement that directly benefits them all the time when its up. <ol><li>Assassins have a proc evade with -8% hate mod they put on themselves.</li><li>Wizards and Warlocks have a -% hate mod.</li><li>Rangers still have their -% hate mod (ironically its only 5% now so its less then what the assassins get).</li><li>Swashbucklers get a hate manipulation ability we cant cast on ourselves and has a 1 minute recast.</li></ol></li><li>Swashbucklers have no AE hate decreasers but have been given more AE DPS potential, on top of that swashbucklers have lost another ability that made us desirable and kept us alive on raids. (BTW, Aeralik's own words say that swashbucklers are known for Hate transfer on raids).</li><li>The temp haste proc (the Spurious Bravado line) still has +5% hate mod on it.<ol><li>We have no -% hate mod now unless we take the rogue INT line but we always have +5% hate mod yay.</li><li>Still no upgrade to this ability so finding the master is almost impossible now.</li></ol></li><li>The piercing proc on our epic checks against spell crit, this needs to be changed.</li><li>Baffle and Hideaway are not sufficient and need to be changed with the hate changes.<ol><li>Baffle is a 1.6-2.7k threat decrease on a 20s recast timer single target.</li><li>Hideaway is a 2.9k -1 hate position on a 1m recast timer single target.<ol><li>Still no upgrade to this so finding the master is almost impossible now.</li></ol></li></ol></li></ol></blockquote>

SantiagoDraco

02-10-2009, 03:13 AM

Raidyen

02-10-2009, 12:59 PM

I understand Aeralik probably needed a week to cool down since it seems he is under the impression that the entire Swashbuckler community is attacking him personally, and is making decisions based on his personal feelings and emotions, rather then what is better for the game balance, and game community.I would hope we can get some kind of communication with somebody. Dev's right now are not even talking about fighter changes, AT ALL. I have a whole guild group that runs on test, but right now we are not testing anything because we have Zero direction from the dev's, or if our testing is even worth it. So far everything we have mentioned the dev's have done the exact opposite <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Right now i kind of feel like we were just wasting our time.I am starting to wonder if they already made the final decisions on everything, and only pushed it back for bug fixes.

Wed

02-10-2009, 06:26 PM

Please bring back the blue AoE, thanks.

Rivel

02-11-2009, 02:44 PM

[Removed for Content] what are you guys crying about? the swash is the most OP class in teh game atm, one of the highest single target dpsers (even higher then the single target only counter class, teh brig) AND if played right the highest ae dps class.. and all you guys can say is 'give me more dmg' ? or ' make me useful' ? mmm one of the highest dps classes all around and your not useful? if you cant get teh dps you want out of your class then learn to play, theres other classes that need attention atm, certainly not the swash

returntosender

02-11-2009, 03:20 PM

<cite>Rivel wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Removed for Content] what are you guys crying about? the swash is the most OP class in teh game atm, one of the highest single target dpsers (even higher then the single target only counter class, teh brig) AND if played right the highest ae dps class.. and all you guys can say is 'give me more dmg' ? or ' make me useful' ? mmm one of the highest dps classes all around and your not useful? if you cant get teh dps you want out of your class then learn to play, theres other classes that need attention atm, certainly not the swash</blockquote>You are correct we are a great class to play. This is one of the reasons I never posted to about the issues with the class. There are classes that I feel for (mages, poor folks, Pally to name the worst off I think) but I can only speak for my class.I will not stand by and not yell if something makes no sense or will reduce the effectiveness of my class. There are issues with the class and we are posting here to address them. Our class is losing a TON of usefullness and getting NOTHING in return. The prob that has been mentioned as our replacement to our blue aoe will be useless to a lot of people, not acceptable. Its crap enough we have our weapon tied into an aa we share with brigs (wich I believe their Tramatic Swipe overwrites ours totally negating out effect) and not on one of out main debuffs.We have a lot of AE dps and no AE hate decreaser, this was fine with our transfer but we are losing and getting nothing to address this, unaceptable. If we are constantly dead and have to turn off our Hurricane to survive then how is this acceptable is we are an AE class? We generate a ton of hate from our debuffs in addition to our dps but we have minimal hate decreaser. Our transfer used to address this also but now it does not decrease hate at all for us. I think the 19% +8% on proc that we used to for all intensive purposes not gain due to transfer is going to make me dead longtime. If I am on the floor doing 7-9k dps and the assasin is throwing down 10-14 w/o duying someone is gona get hurt.The fighter changes affect us, because of our AE nature, more than most anyone else in a detrimental fashion. I personally dont want changes to go live and spend a month dead because these issues were not addressed before the pathc went live and we have to wait for a pathc to fix it.You think we are OP?, the fight to raise the effectiveness of your class and dont attack us for fighting for our own. Go play on your own class forum and let us address the issues we have with our class here. Does this not make more sense than attacking us?

Raidyen

02-11-2009, 04:29 PM

OutcastBlade

02-11-2009, 11:17 PM

Katanalla

02-12-2009, 12:54 AM

I look forward to 15% melee crit proc, finally I will be able to crit every single time an attack lands when fighting avatars and any level 90 mobs in game... yessss

Raidyen

02-13-2009, 01:22 PM

Soooo, Assuming we are loosing the blue AoE, cause it looks like we are now, since we have gotten no word otherwise, any chance we are going to get a shot to test out the new Mythcial Ner... i mean change? Guess i shouldnt expect that the weapon that i have spent the last 8 months trying to get on a dead server to be something totally cool and fun. Its not like EQ2 is a game that is supposed to be enjoyable...Maybe with our vast amount of wealth we have aquired by using our way OP pickpocket skill, we can hire the paladins to come here and petition for our changes as well, because we apparently suck at it.. They seem to be pretty darn good at it with everything they are getting.

OutcastBlade

02-14-2009, 05:54 PM

I smell BS with Aeralik's last outburst tbh. That or he doesn't read this all because he's so busy. So I will do it in point form for him.- Mythical kinda sucks.<ul><li>Needs blue AE clicky proc put back on. There was NO REASON to remove it, unless you just like being vindictive. We are a dps class now and our epic is not a dps epic. </li><li>You're right about TS. Especially now in TSO. Its nice being the only class in the raid that can TS the mob successfully.</li><li>I can't complain about 10% CA damage. It applies to ALL our CAs. It normalizes quite well with what brigands get.</li></ul>- Swarthy Disorder sucks.<ul><li>Switch the values for taunt and detaunt. It should detaunt more than it taunts otherwise we will never use the detaunt portion of it, ever. To the rest of you we already have avoid which assassins and rangers never had. We do not need another dehate proc. </li><li>Make it useable on ourselves as well. That way if mob targets us which it will we can use it on ourselves. It makes sense. Why can't this be done.</li></ul>There a nice simple read.

Oxie

02-15-2009, 11:32 AM

Dunno about anyone else, but in regards to all these changes that are coming up, I know I'm just going to miss the role and my contribution that I've had in the MT group over the past few years. If this class changes enough to the point that I don't consider it to be fun like it used to be, then I'm pretty much up the creek. I've played this swashbuckler since day 1, and I have a lot of time, plat, and real life money* invested in him.I don't have any other desire to play another class, because the other 23 classes do not interest me playstyle-wise. Even if there was another class out there that would spark my interest (brigand probably), my guild doesn't need another one of that class. I've never played a mage or a healer in all my years of gaming, and my guild most certainly does not need another tank class.*real life money = monthly fees and expansion purchases...not plat buying.

Katanalla

02-15-2009, 11:43 AM

I think he wants raids tocarry more and more swashies imo.... that new raid wide hate proc... hell if you had 5 swashies in raid that MT would be getting like an extra 2,000 hate every damn second.

liveja

02-15-2009, 02:06 PM

<cite>Cexi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one wanted it changed from AOE.</blockquote>So far as I can tell, the ONLY change anyone ever asked for was some method of CONTROLLING when we AOE, not removing the AOE effect altogether.I think this desire was stated so plainly, so clearly, that it utterly boggles my mind to read Aeralik implying that we're confused or in dissension about the mythical proc, or that he didn't understand what we wanted.My apologies, in advance, to anyone who might -- for some inexplicable reason -- be offended by anything I wrote in this post.

Mannhec

02-15-2009, 09:22 PM

I rarely post anything and I don't even have the Fabled epic, nevermind the Mythical... but...Please change this back to the clickable AoE. That was truly something to look forward to, now it is merely just another weapon...

Nefariouzx

02-17-2009, 08:51 PM

Still no official response huh? What a surprise.....

returntosender

02-18-2009, 11:13 AM

I have not seen much in the way of responses to most of what was planed in the LU. Hopefully there has been enough overall negative feedback that they are taking a step back to look things over more closely.If they want to make changes I dont mind if they are thought through and stick to what was initially intended. I do have issues with redefining what classes are meant for. We are not the only class who is being altered in roles dramatically. The problem I have with this is these roles they are taking away/altering beyond recognition may have been the reason behind making the characters we are playing.See if we can get a respose to the overall plan for the LU changes in the topic asking about when the next update will be.

DaigleD

02-18-2009, 12:31 PM

honestly, the lack of response only further proves to me my original theory when I read what the purposed changes are ...Aeralik has a sick sense of humor and this is really just a joke and you guys took the bait, hook ... line and sinker.

OutcastBlade

02-18-2009, 06:21 PM

<cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think he wants raids tocarry more and more swashies imo.... that new raid wide hate proc... hell if you had 5 swashies in raid that MT would be getting like an extra 2,000 hate every damn second.</blockquote>You're assuming it stacks.

CenturaEQ

02-19-2009, 05:17 AM

So, after update today I logged in to Test and was expecting it to be AOE. It's not.Aeralik, please change it back to AOE. Everyone wanted it to be AOE.

Jaudark

02-19-2009, 07:49 AM

DngrMou

02-19-2009, 09:02 AM

<cite>Pokes@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have not seen much in the way of responses to most of what was planed in the LU. Hopefully there has been enough overall negative feedback that they are taking a step back to look things over more closely.</blockquote>Nope. Check the test update notes. Swashy's get nothing, and lose an ability. Thanks SOE...for nothing. Again.

returntosender

02-19-2009, 11:15 AM

Did we get changed to the crit proc?

Raidyen

02-19-2009, 01:58 PM

I have no idea WHY SoE is treating the swashbuckler like this. I mean, did a swashbuckler spit in a dev's Cheerios or something? WE all pay our monthly fees just like everyone else, dont we?Our hate transfer is just as important to us as amends is to the paladin. The paladins get all kinds of additions to thier class, hate increase on taunts, THE BEST death prevention spell in the game, etc. We get...1. A MAJOR nerf to our hate transfer, with ZERO feedback being looked at or discussed with us. They changed it and have not even ONCE talked to us or made any kind of changes to it. THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE POST BY ANYONE THAT ADDRESSES THE ISSUES SWASHIES HAVE WITH THIS NERF. NOT ONE. 2. A MAJOR nerf to our Mythical proc. The point of our original mythical was the 8 pecent increase to our hate transfer. yeah the Dot proc sucked, but it was all about the hate transfer anyway.3. A change we ALL liked, a Dev can't understand what we are saying, so he pulls it and turns it into a junk proc.I want somebody, ANYBODY to explain to me why. I doubt they will though, the dev's have been hiding from us for the last 2 weeks, i wouldnt expect any of them to step up and say something at this point.

jack of shadowgua

02-19-2009, 02:22 PM

Looks like everyone is getting tense again. Here's a little comic to lighten things up: <a href="http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=329" target="_blank">The Noob Comic</a>BRING BACK THE TOGGLEABLE AOE PROC!!

Katanalla

02-19-2009, 02:30 PM

...

liveja

02-19-2009, 02:54 PM

<cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>a Dev can't understand what we are saying</blockquote>AFAIK, Aeralik is a native English speaker, & IMO, there's no valid excuse whatsoever for him to NOT understand what we've plainly, clearly, repeatedly said.Again, I apologize in advance if anyone is inexplicably offended by simple truth.

OutcastBlade

02-19-2009, 03:46 PM

It's not so muich the fact that our AE was turned into a garbage proc, but that Aeralik hasn't even responded to us that I just don't want to play this game anymore. He had his little tantrum and then screwed us over with a bigger nerf.Mr. Kozak if you can't be bothered to read our feedback and blame US for our myth being the way it is, just quit man. MMOG development just isn't your thing. Swashbucklers have gotten NOTHING to replace what they have lost. And you react to our outcries by doing the same thing you've always done.... Chop and Drop.

SantiagoDraco

02-19-2009, 05:33 PM

So here's to being intentionally ignored and misinterpreted.SOE, your change to our Mythical is disgraceful and you don't even have the nerve to take responsibility for the change yourself, instead you blame the playerbase. This isn't the way to treat OR retain your customers. EQ2 is hardly the only game in town.

Raidyen

02-19-2009, 06:29 PM

<cite>SantiagoDraco wrote:</cite><blockquote>So here's to being intentionally ignored and misinterpreted.SOE, your change to our Mythical is disgraceful and you don't even have the nerve to take responsibility for the change yourself, instead you blame the playerbase. This isn't the way to treat OR retain your customers. EQ2 is hardly the only game in town.</blockquote>All Aeralik is doing by not responding is adding more fuel to the fire. For the first time in 10 years I am questioning my loyalty to SoE. I am starting to realize how smart it was to just pay month to month...

returntosender

02-19-2009, 06:31 PM

15% mele crit proc added.Here is your feedback, take this to live and you lose my account.Even if you decided to take the AE proc off there were many other USEFULL things that could have been put on the thing. I am in a fairly casual raiding guild and I am at 100% crit on raids with other crit items available in slots I have none in. This is nothing other ... there is nothing I can say that wont get deleted.Thanks for the hose.

jack of shadowgua

02-20-2009, 09:35 AM

How few subscribers can EQ2 drop to before SOE starts cutting pay or just closes it down? Don't make me ask the Owl...you know what his answers are like.

OutcastBlade

02-20-2009, 05:18 PM

<cite>Pokes@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>15% mele crit proc added.Here is your feedback, take this to live and you lose my account.Even if you decided to take the AE proc off there were many other USEFULL things that could have been put on the thing. I am in a fairly casual raiding guild and I am at 100% crit on raids with other crit items available in slots I have none in. This is nothing other ... there is nothing I can say that wont get deleted.Thanks for the hose.</blockquote>That's pretty much where I am headed. If they don't want feedback, don't put it on test. When we do give feedback, actually take the time to read it and cease from demonizing your players since they are the ones that pay your salary.I think what happened was , "Hey Kozak, we can't do this to the swashy mythical for this and that reason."Kozak: "Oh crap... The swashies are going to have a field day withthis one. OK.... Lessee. "You guys said you didnt want a BLUE AE, so I made it green, then you complained aboiut that so I made it into a clicky buff, then you complained about not having a temp buff, so I added an MC proc and its now single target." YES! That will get em LOL. Now they will think the change was their fault because I am vindictive!"

Katanalla

02-20-2009, 10:36 PM

<img src="http://thetalkofthebay.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/fishtacos.jpg" width="400" height="400" />Think about it.

DngrMou

02-20-2009, 10:53 PM

<cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://thetalkofthebay.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/fishtacos.jpg" width="400" height="400" />Think about it.</blockquote>I thought about it. Now I'm hungry.

CenturaEQ

02-21-2009, 05:02 PM

Okey, still +15 MC and Magic proc... Are you serious? Change it back to AOE, everyone wanted it to be AOE.Oh and, address the other issues with our class. Stop ignoring us.

Raidyen

02-21-2009, 07:56 PM

You know what, can we get a response from a different dev? Aeralik is the mechanics guy, he should not be making single handed decsion about a MYTHICAL anyway. They are treating this like its a level 50 treasured item out of lavastorm. Most of the dev team seems to respect thier customers, hold discussions with them, and make changes to the game accordingly. Rothgar and Domino are 2 shinning examples of that. Hey Karia, maybe you can answer that question, Is there another Dev we can go to about this? Because our current one doesnt seem to care.

DngrMou

02-22-2009, 10:28 AM

<cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know what, can we get a response from a different dev? Aeralik is the mechanics guy, he should not be making single handed decsion about a MYTHICAL anyway. They are treating this like its a level 50 treasured item out of lavastorm. Most of the dev team seems to respect thier customers, hold discussions with them, and make changes to the game accordingly. Rothgar and Domino are 2 shinning examples of that. Hey Karia, maybe you can answer that question, Is there another Dev we can go to about this? Because our current one doesnt seem to care.</blockquote>Our current one is off pouting somewhere.And we're left with:Vast sweeping changes to this class, redifining what this class does not by tweaking skills and abilities, but by REMOVING skills and abilities. We're gained nothing, lost much. Our awesome sauce offensive debuffs are a joke. Our DPS depends on the pressence of other classes, (Hey devs...since class interdepencies are a thing of the past, why not fix that for us, huh? Since, unasked, you feel it necessary to balance another class by nerfing us....throw us a [Removed for Content] bone to make up for it). And for gods sake, make up your damned minds, decide what this class does, fix it, then leave it the HELL alone. Thank you.

liveja

02-22-2009, 12:05 PM

<cite>Cexi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okey, still +15 MC and Magic proc... Are you serious?</blockquote>Unfortunately, yes, he's serious.

bloodrage42

02-22-2009, 03:41 PM

We're never going to get a reply from Aeralik let alone any other Dev are we?

SantiagoDraco

02-22-2009, 05:18 PM

Probably not.It's hard to understand. This is exactly the kind of thing that has happened in other games. Promise your customers something that they want, suprisingly so, creating very positive expectations.Then turn around and take it all back and blame those same customers for why you took it back. Then to add insult to injury you give them something inferior to what they already had. Why? What's the purpose? It's very clear that no one wants the new change and everyone wants what was promised. Is it unreasonable to expect a backlash? Isn't it reasonable for us to expect an explanation?How can companies behave this way and not expect their customers to want to move elsewhere?For once how about providing what you promised and make your customers happy. Were here to have fun not to see dissapointment at every turn.

BaronVonPitviper

02-23-2009, 10:54 AM

any new word out on the street?

Katanalla

02-23-2009, 01:12 PM

I dunno, but my assassin alt is now level 26 and rising!

Terron

02-23-2009, 02:02 PM

<cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The reason is apparent - "Aeralik listened to peoples concerns" as expressed by the OP and those that agreed with it where a temporary buff was asked for.</blockquote>Sigh. No one asked that it be removed. A little bit of reading on your part would have made that abundantly clear.</blockquote>It is true that no one asked for it to be removed, but a little bit of reading on your part would have shown that what I wrote was also completely true. Some people did ask for a temporary buff which is what Aeralik gave us. It was quite obvious that there would be a price for that, which is why I considered the original request foolish.

Raidyen

02-23-2009, 03:22 PM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The reason is apparent - "Aeralik listened to peoples concerns" as expressed by the OP and those that agreed with it where a temporary buff was asked for.</blockquote>Sigh. No one asked that it be removed. A little bit of reading on your part would have made that abundantly clear.</blockquote>It is true that no one asked for it to be removed, but a little bit of reading on your part would have shown that what I wrote was also completely true. Some people did ask for a temporary buff which is what Aeralik gave us. It was quite obvious that there would be a price for that, which is why I considered the original request foolish.</blockquote>No, people asked why don't we get a temp buff like the rest of the scouts.Aeralik responded with, not all Mythicals get Temp buffs, just look at the warlocks.Warlock's AoE proc not only does almost the same dmg ours did, but it also drops hate by 2 positions every time i procs.So we asked again, and wondered why we don't get something equivalent to that. In turn, we got what we have now.So here is the real question, why exactly is the CA art mechanics guy doing messing with our Mythical proc in thefirst place?

Froed20

02-23-2009, 03:42 PM

<cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The reason is apparent - "Aeralik listened to peoples concerns" as expressed by the OP and those that agreed with it where a temporary buff was asked for.</blockquote>Sigh. No one asked that it be removed. A little bit of reading on your part would have made that abundantly clear.</blockquote>It is true that no one asked for it to be removed, but a little bit of reading on your part would have shown that what I wrote was also completely true. Some people did ask for a temporary buff which is what Aeralik gave us. It was quite obvious that there would be a price for that, which is why I considered the original request foolish.</blockquote>No, people asked why don't we get a temp buff like the rest of the scouts.Aeralik responded with, not all Mythicals get Temp buffs, just look at the warlocks.Warlock's AoE proc not only does almost the same dmg ours did, but it also drops hate by 2 positions every time i procs.So we asked again, and wondered why we don't get something equivalent to that. In turn, we got what we have now.So here is the real question, why exactly is the CA art mechanics guy doing messing with our Mythical proc in thefirst place?</blockquote>Procs probably fall under that catagory as well. He probably got tired of being screamed at, decided he wasn't going to please everyone no matter what he did, threw down whatever he could think of and moved on to the next task. They're doing a huge revamp that's beginning to look an awful lot like GU13, and as much as it pains me to say this, our mythical is a very small part of that. Maybe when all the dust settles, we'll be able to convince him to take another look at it, but I get the feeling that we're not going to get anywhere with this as things stand right now.

SantiagoDraco

02-23-2009, 04:12 PM

Threw whatever on is right. My god, +crit?

Kiara

02-23-2009, 04:40 PM

Guys, I'm sorry, but I don't have an answer for you.I have a lot of questions from a lot of people that I'm trying to get answers for and I assure you that the swashies are on the list.I know you don't want to hear me asking you to be patient, but I really do need you to.I'll try and have answers this week.

Raidyen

02-23-2009, 05:10 PM

Raidyen

02-23-2009, 05:29 PM

<cite>Fayle@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Procs probably fall under that catagory as well. He probably got tired of being screamed at, decided he wasn't going to please everyone no matter what he did, threw down whatever he could think of and moved on to the next task. They're doing a huge revamp that's beginning to look an awful lot like GU13, and as much as it pains me to say this, our mythical is a very small part of that. Maybe when all the dust settles, we'll be able to convince him to take another look at it, but I get the feeling that we're not going to get anywhere with this as things stand right now.</blockquote>From everything i read, nobody screamed at anybody. Every single issue that came up the the proc was resolved. He made it toggle, he kept it blue. The final issue with it was the temp buff. I personally dont care eitherway, but it was a valid question that was asked, and when he compaired our mythical to the warlocks, we did the same and asked for something that is the equivalent to a 2 position AoE proc.As far as not getting anwhere, 3 years ago a GM changed my wifes characters name because it was an old english name that just happened to be a title character in a movie that had just come out. She had that same name since 1999 in EQ1. So i personally spent 2 weeks in pm's, emails, on the phone until i got ahold of the guy that could overwrite everyone elses decsion. He changed her name back. I have no problem at all putting in that much time and energy plus a whole lot more to get this situation resolved. All it takes is a little dedication and some respectful correspondence with the right people. Funny thing is if they had come out and said "this aoe is overpowered and not balanced with the other mythicals so it needed to be changed", i would have no issues right now. My issue is that right now it appears that a Developer made an emotional decision on a change that is very important to alot of people. he may not care, but there are a ton of people that do.

OutcastBlade

02-23-2009, 07:52 PM

Well said Deekin.This change is very important, and a vindictive developer does not help matters at all.

Nefariouzx

02-23-2009, 08:14 PM

Delow

02-23-2009, 08:41 PM

SantiagoDraco

02-23-2009, 08:46 PM

SantiagoDraco

02-23-2009, 08:50 PM

<cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fayle@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Procs probably fall under that catagory as well. He probably got tired of being screamed at, decided he wasn't going to please everyone no matter what he did, threw down whatever he could think of and moved on to the next task. They're doing a huge revamp that's beginning to look an awful lot like GU13, and as much as it pains me to say this, our mythical is a very small part of that. Maybe when all the dust settles, we'll be able to convince him to take another look at it, but I get the feeling that we're not going to get anywhere with this as things stand right now.</blockquote>Funny thing is if they had come out and said "this aoe is overpowered and not balanced with the other mythicals so it needed to be changed", i would have no issues right now. My issue is that right now it appears that a Developer made an emotional decision on a change that is very important to alot of people. he may not care, but there are a ton of people that do.</blockquote>Not to mention that it's also a buff that we don't want or need, and it's UNderpowered <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Let's hope that people can get past the pride/passion and make the right decison over there and give us something that will make us happy to play the class. After all that IS why we are PAYING customers. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

SantiagoDraco

02-23-2009, 08:52 PM

DngrMou

02-24-2009, 09:05 AM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The reason is apparent - "Aeralik listened to peoples concerns" as expressed by the OP and those that agreed with it where a temporary buff was asked for.</blockquote>Sigh. No one asked that it be removed. A little bit of reading on your part would have made that abundantly clear.</blockquote>It is true that no one asked for it to be removed, but a little bit of reading on your part would have shown that what I wrote was also completely true. Some people did ask for a temporary buff which is what Aeralik gave us. It was quite obvious that there would be a price for that, which is why I considered the original request foolish.</blockquote>Again...NO ONE ASKED THAT IT BE REMOVED. No One. It's simple....obvious, (to you), or not, asking for an additional effect for the mythical has nothing to do with what is being done to this class.Aeralik could have replied, and said that he could add whatever effect, but at the cost of the AoE. He did'nt, that I recall. He decided, all on his own after misreading one or two posts, to change something that everyone had been THANKING him for putting in place. This is entirely his fault. He's the decision maker. He made the changes, and now we're all made to suffer for it.....in addition to the rest of the nerfs this class is being hit with.And your response? "It was foolish to even ask for anything". So we should sit and twiddle our thumbs as the last of our utility is yanked, our epic, and mythical is nerfed....because by asking for something, we invite the Wrath of the Devs? Bizzaro World.

jack of shadowgua

02-24-2009, 12:45 PM

Terron seems to be suffering from "beaten woman syndrome". Appearently he believes that when he gets smacked around it's his (her?) fault for provoking the beating, instead of placing the blame on the person giving the beating, where it truly belongs.The swashbuckler community didn't do anything to warrant the abuse we've received and I will place the blame where it belongs.

BaronVonPitviper

02-24-2009, 02:25 PM

thank you for the response.

returntosender

02-24-2009, 02:31 PM

<cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guys, I'm sorry, but I don't have an answer for you.I have a lot of questions from a lot of people that I'm trying to get answers for and I assure you that the swashies are on the list.I know you don't want to hear me asking you to be patient, but I really do need you to.I'll try and have answers this week.</blockquote>Thanks for getting back to us, even if it is w/o answers at least we know somone is here and we are not being ignored by everyone. I am sure there is a lot going on with all the changes, its nice to get thrown a line so we know you are there.Hopefully we get some of the answers we are looking for. Hopefully some changes will be made to address the issues we have (esp mythical).I have fun playing and would rather not cancel, that being said I'm not going to stick around if we are trashed. I am not sure how taking so much away and giving nothing in return could be expected to revieve anything but hostility from the swashy community.Most people want nothing to do with this revamp yet it goes on. Is this wise?

bighead222ed

02-25-2009, 06:24 AM

i do not like posting on this form! yet after reading 2 hours of (well a lot of discusion) i have to point out this is why these forms are not my favorite. People do not read one! Other do not consider or think about what they say! yet other just make it harder for the point to get across.As a swashy I dont need Melee Crit/or Da. There is so much gear out there if you are not over 100% u probley should not be woried about what mythical has on it! Unless you buy it! And 115% MC that is being modest, most raider sit at over 100% self buffed...That AOE proc with the clicky was nice! < was really looking forward to it! note the key word!The biggest thing is swashy have always been Hate transfers. Now we lose that! So how Is sony DEV. team going to fix that?SO we will no longer beable to reduce/or transfer hate, beside the changes to sashy disorder<( point out, even with that now, we can pull aggro,cause of the hate we generate... debuff/dps/proc all causes) So my question,and all other swashys... is WHAt do we get to replace are transfer,both of are main transfers are now gone?Sorry but this is very insulting to my class, I AM A SWASHY....

AegisCrown

02-25-2009, 01:06 PM

<cite>bighead222ed wrote:</cite><blockquote>i do not like posting on this form! yet after reading 2 hours of (well a lot of discusion) i have to point out this is why these forms are not my favorite. People do not read one! Other do not consider or think about what they say! yet other just make it harder for the point to get across.As a swashy I dont need Melee Crit/or Da. There is so much gear out there if you are not over 100% u probley should not be woried about what mythical has on it! Unless you buy it! And 115% MC that is being modest, most raider sit at over 100% self buffed...That AOE proc with the clicky was nice! < was really looking forward to it! note the key word!The biggest thing is swashy have always been Hate transfers. Now we lose that! So how Is sony DEV. team going to fix that?SO we will no longer beable to reduce/or transfer hate, beside the changes to sashy disorder<( point out, even with that now, we can pull aggro,cause of the hate we generate... debuff/dps/proc all causes) So my question,and all other swashys... is WHAt do we get to replace are transfer,both of are main transfers are now gone?Sorry but this is very insulting to my class, I AM A SWASHY....</blockquote>They are trying to make it more of the tank's job to hold agro then our job to hold it for them. we will have a reactive hate/dehate depending on class.

OutcastBlade

02-25-2009, 05:46 PM

<cite>Coel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bighead222ed wrote:</cite><blockquote>i do not like posting on this form! yet after reading 2 hours of (well a lot of discusion) i have to point out this is why these forms are not my favorite. People do not read one! Other do not consider or think about what they say! yet other just make it harder for the point to get across.As a swashy I dont need Melee Crit/or Da. There is so much gear out there if you are not over 100% u probley should not be woried about what mythical has on it! Unless you buy it! And 115% MC that is being modest, most raider sit at over 100% self buffed...That AOE proc with the clicky was nice! < was really looking forward to it! note the key word!The biggest thing is swashy have always been Hate transfers. Now we lose that! So how Is sony DEV. team going to fix that?SO we will no longer beable to reduce/or transfer hate, beside the changes to sashy disorder<( point out, even with that now, we can pull aggro,cause of the hate we generate... debuff/dps/proc all causes) So my question,and all other swashys... is WHAt do we get to replace are transfer,both of are main transfers are now gone?Sorry but this is very insulting to my class, I AM A SWASHY....</blockquote>They are trying to make it more of the tank's job to hold agro then our job to hold it for them. we will have a reactive hate/dehate depending on class.</blockquote>This will work great in the beginning of the fight. But not so great later on, we will still be ripping.a.) It's useless on adds because its single target. We would have to always target through the MT instead of the MA so that when he goes to rip the adds we can use the taunt reactive.b.) The detaunt portion of it is redundant unless we are tanking ourselves.The issue of not being able to use it on ourselves directly is kinda moot, since we use it on the tank for him to generate more hate anyway. What this is leading to is a raid force would do well to have two or more swashbucklers, since we can dps like the best of em, and we can time the hate reactive on the tank. So for two swashies one swashy hits it on the minute and the other swashy hits it on the minute and thirty second mark and so on and so on, cycling the hate reactive around the pathetic minute recast time.Suffice it to say, this is not even close to being on par with what we are losing as a class. Not even close.I would have preferred getting an AE detaunt proc in addition to avoid tbh. Since we are an AE class like warlocks, but unlike warlocks we have no AE detaunt at all. Very badly thought out imo, and I am glad they are working on it more because what we are getting as a class is more an afterthought than a serious attempt at "upgrading" us along with every other class.

DngrMou

02-25-2009, 09:27 PM

<cite>Kanolth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Suffice it to say, this is not even close to being on par with what we are losing as a class. Not even close.I would have preferred getting an AE detaunt proc in addition to avoid tbh. Since we are an AE class like warlocks, but unlike warlocks we have no AE detaunt at all. Very badly thought out imo, and I am glad they are working on it more because what we are getting as a class is more an afterthought than a serious attempt at "upgrading" us along with every other class.</blockquote>agreed, (and I doubt they're working on an AE detaunt for us...I doubt this ever even occurred to them).I suspect there are aspects of the changes SOE has yet to consider, (and in true SOE fashion I expect these issues will be back-burnered once the update goes live, and we'll see them dealt with in a haphazard 'bandaid' fashion for months afterward).We're now the AoE melee class..yet we have no AoE hate reduction/detaunt/transfer capabilities? Huh? This makes sense to anyone?Without our hate transfer...and saddled with a Blame Blade that's been nerfed by close to fifty percent...how will the 'other' tank classes, like Swashy's and Brigands maintain aggro without these abilities on them, or with horribly nerfed versions of them? Is SOE tweaking the various encounters that require groups to maintain certain amounts of DPS? What effect will these changes have on mem-wiping encounters, (prior to this change, on a mem wipe, I could throw off some damage, or a taunt, hit blame blade, (get some of that aggro on the tank), and hideaway...and help get the mob back on the tank...even if the tank was busy trying to rescue someone else from some other mob).Since we're giving up hate transfer, (among other things)...what are we getting in exchange? Keeping in mind, that by removing the need for an ability is as much a nerf as removing the ability anyway.....in either case, it's a nerf....and in this case it's both. After all this time at 80, I'm going to have to go scrambling around to get an upgrade to an ability that I aready mastered, why? Something I can't even respec for a master II choice, why? If SOE is going to do this, they need to give every swash out there an upgrade, (Adept I, III, Master I), to the next tier of their hate transfer that they already possess. We still have unresolved issues from 'upgrades' past, what is going to make this change any different? We have AA abilities that are pointless...because they've been rendered useless, by SOE...and they have'nt been addressed yet...and now we're facing another round of nerfs?/boggle

Kiara

02-25-2009, 09:33 PM

Okay guys <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Here goes. Please understand that I play healers (as I try to keep reminding people so that I don't sound quite so dumb <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />) so my understanding of Swashies and your issues is only based off what I read on the forums and what I learn from the devs.Regarding your epic weapon: The change was intended to be similar to other epics in the department of the damage rather than just a buff. So the additional damage is meant to be there all the time now. By making the effect no longer a DOT, the intent is to allow the use of the swashie mez at the same time.Regarding your role without the hate transfer: The idea is that you excel at stat debuffing. You make the mobs weaker and easier to kill while also making them not hit your raid as hard as they might otherwise.Your hate transfer has been removed and to replace it you will have a buff that gives the tank (or whomever else you cast it on) a huge instant hate boost. So rather than feeding a continuous line of hate, you will still be able to buff the amount that is given.Please continue to provide feedback (in terms that the dark elf can grasp <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />) and let me know how things are working for you on test, currently, and what further concerns you have.Thanks <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />**amended <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Thundy

02-25-2009, 09:52 PM

Your "answer" about the epic doesn't really do much of anything. My main concern is seeing the blue AE return. Is this coming back? Or are we stuck with this crappy single target DD and crit buff. I don't think anyone (IMO) had a problem with moving from the DoT to the DD, it should have been that way in the first place.It's very disappointing that after all this in regards to the epic the answer "you" (in quotes because I can only assume you are getting these answers from developers) can give is one about a change that everyone already knew about.And finally, this still leaves the majority of the questions in the first post of this thread unanswered. Why is this so hard?I hope this is simple enough to understand.

Kiara

02-25-2009, 10:04 PM

I can ask about the aoe. I can't promise that the change will be made.I'll go reading through the thread again looking for specific questions that I can take to the team, but from here forward it would help me greatly if you can give me questions in easy to handle packages.I gave you this today because it's what stood out to me as the biggest thing that needed to be addressed first. I'll continue to dig for things, I just want all of you to be sure to let me know what is most important to you.

Thundy

02-25-2009, 10:06 PM

<cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can ask about the aoe. I can't promise that the change will be made.I'll go reading through the thread again looking for specific questions that I can take to the team, but from here forward it would help me greatly if you can give me questions in easy to handle packages.I gave you this today because it's what stood out to me as the biggest thing that needed to be addressed first. I'll continue to dig for things, I just want all of you to be sure to let me know what is most important to you.</blockquote>I don't mean to be a jerk here but the ----> VERY FIRST POST <---- in this thread has a NUMBERED LIST of questions that are extremely specific. Yes you answered the first few about the epic and hate transfer but there is still more in that list.Honestly.

CenturaEQ

02-25-2009, 10:13 PM

Thank you for your reply, Kiara.About epic weapon, our question is still: Are we getting the AOE proc back or not? This have been asked for weeks, and we have still not received an answer about this from a "red-head". I hope you are still trying to get an answer on this question. This is still the biggest concern to the Swashy community.And about the new "hate buff". There are still some issues with it. I'm not on Test at the moment, so I don't remember all, but these are two:The Recast (one minute) is too long, it needs to be lowered.The decrease hate portion (if not fighter) needs to be higher than the increase hate portion (if fighter).

Kiara

02-25-2009, 10:19 PM

<cite>Cexi@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thank you for your reply, Kiara.About epic weapon, our question is still: Are we getting the AOE proc back or not? This have been asked for weeks, and we have still not received an answer about this from a "red-head". I hope you are still trying to get an answer on this question. This is still the biggest concern to the Swashy community.And about the new "hate buff". There are still some issues with it. I'm not on Test at the moment, so I don't remember all, but these are two:The Recast (one minute) is too long, it needs to be lowered.The decrease hate portion (if not fighter) needs to be higher than the increase hate portion (if fighter).</blockquote>I'll ask again about the proc <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Thanks for the hate buff info, I'll add it to my list.

DngrMou

02-25-2009, 10:28 PM

Katanalla

02-25-2009, 10:54 PM

Thank you for all your help Kiara, it is very much appreciated.

Nailoo

02-25-2009, 11:02 PM

Kiara, first of all thank you so much for responding and trying to help. It means alot to us.As for questions for you to send up the ladder...The BIGGEST one by far and the reason that tons of swashys that never post have posted in the last couple weeks is...Are we getting our blue AOE proc back on our mythicals??? <===This is the MOST important question atm for swashys.(Most of us anyways) <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Most of us don't care if it's clicky or not, we just want it back and to get rid of that silly single target thing that got put on there.Again the BIG QUESTION isCan we please get the blue AOE proc back????? Honestly, if you can only address one thing (more would be nice of course, our class needs some work <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" />) but if it's down to one thing, please make it be this.Being at the mercy of someone who either doesn't have the time, energy or will to try and honestly make things better for the class they're supposed to be in charge of doesn't help anyone. Maybe it's just me but it seems like some classes get taken care of really well and others don't. For a fair and fun game to all of the customers who pay every month this should be and needs to be changed. It's unfortunate, but you see that pretty often, people of all classes decide to quit because they just get fed up and ask themselves why am I paying for this? That really sucks because imo EQ and EQ2 are the best roleplaying games out there. (That was my complaining part hehe.) <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /> Anyways...Kiara, thanks again for taking a minute to respond to us and our concerns. Feeling as if your wishes/ concerns are being are at least being listened to and addressed makes a world of difference.

Puppydog

02-26-2009, 02:28 AM

I'm excited to see some feedback, thanks ton Kiara.Here are some issues with our class they I believe we all would like to have looked at:1) Can we get the blue aoe back on our mythicals?2) Most of us feel we were robbed of the main attribute we bring to the game with the loss of the hate transfer and did not get an even return. Pleasw re-examine what we will get in return for our hate transfer, as is, the swash loses all desireability when compared with any other dps class.3) We are an aoe scout. Please look into enabling us to be one. We have no aoe deagro, and without transfer, we cannot be an aoe scout anymore.4) Many classes have a very useful and class defineing spell at level 80. We get Sleight of Hand that is at best rarely used and brings nothing to the game.5) You mentioned that our role is to debuff mobs offensive abilities. While true, it is not large enough to make a difference. Our Lung Bleed spell should be as devestating to mobs damage output as the brigs dispatch is to their defense. Please look into either beefing up our offensive debuffs, or provide another means to make this class desireable.Thank you for your time and patience. I understand that is several issues that need to be fixed. If possible, can you at least take a look at them and let us know what the dev team thinks. I really do love this class, but I just feel like we are slipping further and further behind others, and we will no longer be needed.

OutcastBlade

02-26-2009, 06:44 AM

Thanks Kiara. Believe it or not, you're calming the storm over here. We as a community are very upset with the changes made to our epic, and we feel shafted about losing our hate xfer and getting what we believe is a very lackluster substitute.An AE detaunt proc would have been much better. Reason being is we AE... a lot... Avoid procs on our hurricane, but its up to 4 targets. Our three blues hit up to 8. Since we don't xfer the hate we get from these 8 mobs, we run the chance of ripping adds coming into the raid and not being able to get shake the aggro except to hope the tank rips in time.Anyways thanks for your efforts. It's deeply appreciated by all of us frustrated swashies.

Katanalla

02-26-2009, 11:36 AM

AoE Proc with detaunt attatched to it? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Tybalt

02-26-2009, 11:50 AM

Thank you Kiara for responding!#1 priority to me as a swash is getting the blue aoe back ;o)Other things can come after.

DngrMou

02-26-2009, 11:59 AM

<cite>Tybalt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thank you Kiara for responding!#1 priority to me as a swash is getting the blue aoe back ;o)Other things can come after.</blockquote>I would hope all the issues are resolved before this goes live, (outside of minor post-live tweaks). Otherwise the Next Big Project comes along, and these issues drop off the radar. That's happened in the past...and seemingly defines business as usual.

Delow

02-26-2009, 01:09 PM

<cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can ask about the aoe. I can't promise that the change will be made.I'll go reading through the thread again looking for specific questions that I can take to the team, but from here forward it would help me greatly if you can give me questions in easy to handle packages.I gave you this today because it's what stood out to me as the biggest thing that needed to be addressed first. I'll continue to dig for things, I just want all of you to be sure to let me know what is most important to you.</blockquote>Thank you for responding to us and looking into these things, its greatly appriciated.The main priority of all of us right now is to get the AoE proc back."Masters of misdirection, Swashbucklers often avoid the blame for their potent strikes." -- Part of our class description.Our replacement for our old threat transfer needs to drop our hate position when we cast it while also increases the tanks or lowering a casters hate. This way we get an immediate benefit ourselves like what we had with our transfer. Its recast also needs to be faster.

Raidyen

02-26-2009, 01:21 PM

Kiara, this is exactly what we needed to see, thank you very much.1. The blue AoE on our mythical. First, are we going to get it back, and second, can it have an AoE threat reduction on the proc as well as the dmg, just like the warlocks. Doesnt need to be 2 position drop, can just be a set detaunt amount. (if we cant get the threat reduction thats not a deal breaker, but the blue AoE NEEDS to come back)2. Swarthy Disorder hate buff line. As Cexi said, the hate values need to be switched in order to give us reasons to cast on somebody other then the Main tank. I also agree with reducing its reuse to 30 seconds. However it should work like Slieght of Hand and Jesters Cap, where it can only be cast on the same target once every 1 or 2 minutes. Test is down right now so i dont remember the cast speed, but it needs to be .5 if its not already in order to limit the amount of dps loss we will take by having to add this spell into our rotation. Oh and i love the idea that it drops 1 hate position, or gives us some kind of threat reduction to us when we cast it. Right now it gives us no benefits to ourselves, where as the old transfer helped both the tank and us.There are many other issues, but right now for GU51, these 2 are the largest, and desperatly need fixed before it goes live.

Puppydog

02-26-2009, 04:14 PM

After thinking on it a bit, I've come up with a few ideas to fix the swashbuckler class.1.) Add toggleable blue aoe direct damage/deagro to our myth. take away the crit buff. (Or, instead of the deagro on the myth, make the deagro proc from Avoid aoe)2.) "Threat buff" needs values switched, and we need to be able to cast on ourselves.3.) Change Sleight of Hand to an effect such as: "Removes target from hate list. Once target has had Slight of Hand applied, target cannot have it cast on them for 2 minutes." Reuse - 1 min. ( <-- handy, and not overpowered <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )4.) Remove off hand restriction from the rogue wisdom line. As it is we have a pretty much cookie cutter aa choice. Every swash out there has the same aa spec. Make AAs a tough choice.5.) Tier 8 version of Hurricane would be cool.6.) Allow for either a) upgrades to ruthless cunning and spurious bravado or b) make them more easily accessable. Many people are of the belief that Master versions dont even exist.7.) Since we have no transfer anymore, please take the +hate off of spurious bravado.8.) Increase taunt amount of Tease. ( For those of us that do indeed tank zones)9.) Beef up offensive debuffs to be equal and opposite to the brigands defense debufs.I know this is a long list, and many are just suggestions, but I believe if these were implemented it would indeed balance our class without making us overpowered as well as make us desireable in groups and raids. I also believe every swash out there would be pleased if these suggestions were implemented. Thanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

returntosender

02-26-2009, 06:23 PM

Thanks for keeping us updated Kiara. Here is what I would like to see in order of importance.1. Mythical change, currently form on test has me in /rage quit mode (very similar to the assassin epic but no flurry). A. Blue AE coming back would be great but something has to be drastically altered from what is on test currently to keep my business. We have said it repeatedly, please remove the swipe requirement and place it on one of our class only debuffs. B. We already have [Removed for Content] options for those AA trees; forcing us down a line makes it even worse (does any other class have to choose a specific AA tree to use their epic to its fullest?). 2. Redefining our class attributes. A. One of the major reasons I made a swashbuckler was for the hate transfer utility. We currently are receiving a skill that is decent in its idea but is by far not comparable to what we are losing. It has a long reuse timer and is something that is not maintained so it’s another button to click, as it is I have to much crap to click now. Worse yet it helps us lose hate in no way whatsoever, this is not going to be good for us with hurricane popping off. I would recommend making it similar to the cross raid buffs that tanks can cast on others. A maintained buff that has a set % to proc with a dual affect of AE hate gain(if on tank)/AE decrease(if not fighter) to target and AE hate decrease(if on tank)/gain(if on other than a tank) on the caster. This would make me a happy camper and fix a couple of concerns. It would still be a very useful skill and the hate amounts could (and should from test amount) be altered to be not overpowering. B. Our damage prevention roll is not as strong as it probably needs to be. If people have a choice between a brigand debuffs or swashbuckler debuffs the brigand will be chosen more often than not. With all of the critical hitting mobs why did we not receive something dealing with critical hit damage reduction or reducing the critical hit chance of success? This seems like it would be within our field of expertise. 3. AE hate control. A. If we cannot have the transfer planed on test altered please alter one of our existing detaunts to be an AOE skill. If I am constantly on the ground because we have no way to shed hate from our Hurricane why would I want to continue playing? If making a Sleight of Hand macro for 4 healers/low DPS people in the raid is what you expect us to do to control out hate it is unacceptable. I have stated above I have to much crap to cast, I am not adding 4 more things to my casting order to stay alive and lower my DPS even further. It would also mean if I am forced into using it to get rid of my hate I could not use it as a rescue, the only thing it works as in a fairly consistent manner (PS SOH SUX).4. AA line revamps. A. With all the changes that have occurred since the inception of AA there are very limited/viable options for us. Removing some of the DA and the offhand from the wisdom line would be a start; spell crit stacked into the intelligence line would be another way to freshen things up a bit. The original trees are the ones that really need some freshness, the others I don think are to out of line (though some crit mit damage prevention through Shadows AA tree would be nice).I hope this is specific enough and broke down well. Upgrades to old spells and hate removed from some of them would be great but the stuff listed above is all much more concerning.

Raidyen

02-26-2009, 06:57 PM

Lets be careful not to overwhelm this by requesting to many things. Right now we need to focus on the handful of major issues that are happening with the upcoming update. We all know the issues with AA's and debuffs, but right now lets just try and save a mythical proc, and make some sort of attempt to balance the loss of our hate transfer.

Nefariouzx

02-26-2009, 07:01 PM

If they were even going to consider changing that AA tree for us, I couldnt care less about the WIS line. Id rather see the INT lined changed to get us a decent amount of spell crit.

Puppydog

02-26-2009, 09:35 PM

My previous post just outlined all problems just this class. If they were all fixed, I would be estatic, but I realize theres a lot going on right now to get this update out and the devs would need additional time to give all areas adequate thought.In the interest of time, heres a few sugestions to possibly implement in the new update.* Blue aoe back on myth (easy enough to fix)* Change Avoid to proc on all enemies that hate the swashbuckler. (another quick, easy fix)* Change SoH to "Drops target from hate list." (tougher but doable) This would be the ultimate class defining ability. Goes very well with our class description. It is not overpowered. My basis for saying that is that SKs can cast feign death on anyone that essetially does the same thing (any even lets target stay off hate list while down). Coercers can remove an entire raid from a mobs hate list with anesthesia. This ability gives the swash hate management for himself, group, or raid while not being overpowered. I would be happy with this change in place of the hate transfer. If yall could give us this, keep the hate buff reactive as is on test for all I care.Other issues can be dealt with in time.

returntosender

02-26-2009, 09:38 PM

Yes the spell crit would be nice, alterations to wis could make it viable for people also. Its all same old same old atm, wouldnt mind new stuff to consider in the unused lines.

Ansis

02-26-2009, 10:16 PM

Our hate transfer was class defining ability.Because of what class defining ability after lu51 we should be in raids?Dont tell me because of offensive debuffs ...If we are masters at debuffing offensive stuff, where is our crit attack debuff? Give us debuff instead of useless SoH.If we are dps now, why should someone take swash over t1 dps?Well, basically, where is gonna be our place after gu51 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

bloodrage42

02-26-2009, 10:35 PM

WOW, and you guys didnt understand why earalik decided to say the hell with it and scrap the blue aoe? you really do ask for to much. Our CLASS as a whole is fine. the only problem was the blue aoe proc being taunted in front of our faces then removed smitefully. WE dont need anything else. Just the blue aoe. stop asking for stupid upgrades. You guys got so bent out of shape when aeralik said it was cuz we asked for more..... and why would he say that? stop posting about new improvements. The only thing we need is the blue aoe proc, GG.

returntosender

02-27-2009, 12:43 AM

<cite>bloodrage42 wrote:</cite><blockquote>WOW, and you guys didnt understand why earalik decided to say the hell with it and scrap the blue aoe? you really do ask for to much. Our CLASS as a whole is fine. the only problem was the blue aoe proc being taunted in front of our faces then removed smitefully. WE dont need anything else. Just the blue aoe. stop asking for stupid upgrades. You guys got so bent out of shape when aeralik said it was cuz we asked for more..... and why would he say that? stop posting about new improvements. The only thing we need is the blue aoe proc, GG.</blockquote>Sorry, I have let stuff slide off in the past, a little of this would be nice, a little of that would be nice. We had a few thing that our class was stuck with that could have been better but overall we were very strong.This more than about the REDICULOUS MYTHICAL CRAP, this is about not standing by and getting castrated as a class w/o a fight. Take the transfer away and get nothing? na im all set. Blue AOE proc would have been very cool, however it does not make up for what we are losing as a whole.As long as I am riled up enough to post here (never posted before the 15% mele proc crap) I will mention the other issues there are. Im sure you wont have to read my posts much longer, nothing will get fixed and ill be gone.

SantiagoDraco

02-27-2009, 04:37 AM

<cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay guys <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Here goes. Please understand that I play healers (as I try to keep reminding people so that I don't sound quite so dumb <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />) so my understanding of Swashies and your issues is only based off what I read on the forums and what I learn from the devs.Regarding your epic weapon: The change was intended to be similar to other epics in the department of the damage rather than just a buff. So the additional damage is meant to be there all the time now. By making the effect no longer a DOT, the intent is to allow the use of the swashie mez at the same time.</blockquote>Thanks for responding Kiara.I find it next to impossible to maturely respond to this post. The suggestion that this change is so that we can use MEZ is so absurd as to make us doubt the sanity of whoever had you say it.I guess that it would be a waste of time to point out that the Blue TOGGLEABLE AOE that was promised would also have allowed us to use our mez. I might also point out that we are talking about mythical weapons. Weapons that require raiding EPIC zones to complete, hence you are probably epic instance capable. Note the exception on the Swashy mezz that says "will not effect EPIC targets". When's the last time we used our mezzes in a raid zone? Maybe never? I'd also suggest that you'll be very very hard pressed to find any mythical'd swashy who uses swarthy destraction in an instance either. If they do then they not only bought their mythical but also paid to have their character leveled and walked through the entire mythical process itself. And if by chance there is some special rare situation that requires the use of a swashy mez (over other more powerful and reusable mezzes) that the swashy probably isn't attacking the mob nor has the swashy attacked the mob before mezzing.No, these points are moot because then it would beg the question is someone just looking for excuses to justify further deminishing a class that competes with other dps classes?I guess that pointing out that the assassin mythical in the "damage department" (per the other stated "reason" for the change) has a 15% flurry PLUS a damage proc with a + crit (which as we all know is pretty much negligable to us raiders)? We just get this new proc and nothing even in the same universe of the flurry buff?Who is this game for, the developers or the customers? Sometimes we wonder.

DaigleD

02-27-2009, 05:49 AM

<cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay guys <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Here goes. Please understand that I play healers (as I try to keep reminding people so that I don't sound quite so dumb <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />) so my understanding of Swashies and your issues is only based off what I read on the forums and what I learn from the devs.1. Regarding your epic weapon: The change was intended to be similar to other epics in the department of the damage rather than just a buff. So the additional damage is meant to be there all the time now. By making the effect no longer a DOT, the intent is to allow the use of the swashie mez at the same time.2. Regarding your role without the hate transfer: The idea is that you excel at stat debuffing. You make the mobs weaker and easier to kill while also making them not hit your raid as hard as they might otherwise.3. Your hate transfer has been removed and to replace it you will have a buff that gives the tank (or whomever else you cast it on) a huge instant hate boost. So rather than feeding a continuous line of hate, you will still be able to buff the amount that is given.Please continue to provide feedback (in terms that the dark elf can grasp <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />) and let me know how things are working for you on test, currently, and what further concerns you have.Thanks <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />**amended <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>First I'd like to say thank you very much Kiara, it's been amazing over the past few days having someone to actually communicate with. You'll notice I numbered your 3 points to reference them in my posts to follow....1. Please, whoever told you to say that do me a favor and just punch them right in the face. k? Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />2. The idea that we excel at stat debuffing is true, but not ... Swashies do have some nice offensive stat debuffs, but they have long been outdated and are no longer required for raiding. (This is just my opinion, but I'm sure others feel the same way)3. The idea that Swarthy Disorder is being replaced with a spell that will be a "huge instant hate boost" is ridiculous. Anyone that has played on test, knows with the up and coming hate changes for fighters it is nearly impossible for people to pull agro from any decent tank. The Swarthy Disorder line will fall to the wastes, just like Sleight of Hand. It will be extremely situational at best, and no longer be a class defining ability.We have completely lost nearly all of our desirability in raids. Why would you even think about taking a Swash on a raid over say ... another Brig? After these changes go through. Same dps output potential and Dispatch to boot.

DngrMou

02-27-2009, 07:01 AM

<cite>bloodrage42 wrote:</cite><blockquote>WOW, and you guys didnt understand why earalik decided to say the hell with it and scrap the blue aoe? you really do ask for to much. Our CLASS as a whole is fine. the only problem was the blue aoe proc being taunted in front of our faces then removed smitefully. WE dont need anything else. Just the blue aoe. stop asking for stupid upgrades. You guys got so bent out of shape when aeralik said it was cuz we asked for more..... and why would he say that? stop posting about new improvements. The only thing we need is the blue aoe proc, GG.</blockquote>WOW indeed. So now it's our fault this class is being nerfed? Is this what they're peddling over at eq2whines.com these days? Here's a special clue, just for you. Not every swash that plays this game has a mythical. Not every swash that plays this game will get their mythical. Yes, something better than the POS dot on it now is warranted, and needed. But the other nerfs being made to the class, which have a larger impact on those who are'nt mythicaled, and may never be, need to be addressed. Your prima donna attitude ignores the rest of the class, and the very real nerfs being foisted on us as part of a 'fighter rebalancing' that should not have anything to do with us.

liveja

02-27-2009, 12:26 PM

<cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can ask about the aoe. I can't promise that the change will be made.</blockquote>I'd like to remind you that the AOE proc is the single most important question we have raised throughout this thread. I honestly have no clue who came up with the idea that our epic weapon proc was changed in order to allow us to use our mez, as well. I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound spiteful or insulting, but that idea is simply nonsensical to the point of offensive. Seriously, it's like whoever told you that doesn't know anything about Swashies, knows you don't know about Swashies, & spouted whatever drivel came to their minds first.Our raid role is now stat debuffs? Really???? /facepalm If that's the case, will we be given actual debuffs that allow us to do this, since the ones we have are pretty much totally irrelevant compared to the DPS we do???I don't even know where to start with the response on our hate transfer. It came across like we're suppose to suddenly get excited at some new, heretofore utterly undiscovered enhanced functionality that's been added to it. Apparently, the notion that we're an AOE DPS class that has no ability to AOE de-aggro never occurred to anyone ... though, oddly, it's been mentioned at least once in this thread ......... Is it possible that people aren't even reading the thread? It surely seems so <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />My deepest apologies Kiara, because you know I <3 you. But when I read the posted responses, my very first inclination was to cancel my account <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" />

Raidyen

02-27-2009, 04:28 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can ask about the aoe. I can't promise that the change will be made.</blockquote>I'd like to remind you that the AOE proc is the single most important question we have raised throughout this thread. I honestly have no clue who came up with the idea that our epic weapon proc was changed in order to allow us to use our mez, as well. I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound spiteful or insulting, but that idea is simply nonsensical to the point of offensive. Seriously, it's like whoever told you that doesn't know anything about Swashies, knows you don't know about Swashies, & spouted whatever drivel came to their minds first.Our raid role is now stat debuffs? Really???? /facepalm If that's the case, will we be given actual debuffs that allow us to do this, since the ones we have are pretty much totally irrelevant compared to the DPS we do???I don't even know where to start with the response on our hate transfer. It came across like we're suppose to suddenly get excited at some new, heretofore utterly undiscovered enhanced functionality that's been added to it. Apparently, the notion that we're an AOE DPS class that has no ability to AOE de-aggro never occurred to anyone ... though, oddly, it's been mentioned at least once in this thread ......... Is it possible that people aren't even reading the thread? It surely seems so <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />My deepest apologies Kiara, because you know I <3 you. But when I read the posted responses, my very first inclination was to cancel my account <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Had my own post, but above is pretty close to what i am thinking as well. Also wanted to add how important that AoE proc is to every single one of us.Hate transfer change is a very close second.

Kiara

02-27-2009, 05:29 PM

Hey guys... I know that you're not hearing what you want to hear, and again I promise I will talk to the team about your issues, but I really need you to strive for a little more civility.I get that you're frustrated and you all know that I <3 everyone here, just please try not to bicker amongst yourselves, okay? It doesn't help anyone.

liveja

02-28-2009, 12:28 AM

<cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>I promise I will talk to the team about your issues</blockquote>Would you please explain to them that we're not really impressed over Swashy mez? Sure, it's nice to have ... but it makes no sense at all, as an explanation regarding the proc on our epic weapon.I'd write more, but I'm probably already on thin ice <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" />O, right, I forgot: now that our new role is apparently going to be debuff monkey, I'd imagine our hate transfer nerf won't hurt as much ... or, at least, it won't matter after our DPS gets nerfed to "balance" the "new & improved debuffs" we'll need to actually function as debuff monkeys.<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

DngrMou

02-28-2009, 04:36 PM

Well, I have the perfect solution. Just as tanks should not depend on other classes to hold aggro, neither should this class depend on others for our DPS. Sure, a few other classes will be 'regretably' (wink wink), nerfed...but just think how happy they'll be. Just like swashy's are right now! I'm sure, once it's explained to them that you're giving them something else, (I suggest a 1 minute recast effect that increases CA damage by five, (single target), for not two, but THREE triggers), that they'll understand.

Raidyen

03-02-2009, 12:40 PM

Kiara please dont forget about us.2 major questions still need answered.Blue AoE on our mythical, and Swarthy Distraction (hate transfer) change.

Awlis

03-02-2009, 07:33 PM

Kiara..thank you firstly for your attention to our problems...the issue still remains thats we have via the tank aggro revamp lost a huge ability that we were sort after for.I have raided at the high end of content for the last 2 years of eq2 and before that in eq1. each class needs is niche and for me it has always seems swashbuckler were the aoe dps, offensive debuffers and aggro transfer.If you remove one of those abilities then either a new ability needs to replace it or one of the other niches needs to be strenghtened.The previous idea of an aoe proc on the mythical was simple, fitted our class and filled the space made by the removal of aggro transfer.No one in the swashbuckler community asked for this to be removed.. some may have asked for too much extra.. but noone wanted this gone.I know you play a healer.. but I am sure that you have sufficent knowledge of the game to see that a +15 mc does not even come close to an aoe proc (which was there to replace a huge take away of ability).. especially considering that an average raiding swashy is already peaking at 85% mc.In short the planned change to swashy mythical offers a proc that will benefit a very small minority of swashbuckler in replacement for an ability that saw them highly sort after in raids.

Mizou

03-02-2009, 08:18 PM

Hi Kiara and thank u for responding to our problemsi know im quite a difficult person and sometimes i am not nice to others but ok i always wanted the best for swashys and the game.here is why i asked for more then the blue aoe proc and why i said i dont want crit / da or anything else that would make the aoe proc overpoweredive asked for examble to get an deaggro aoe proc like erm 500-1k for examble something that would give me more aoe aggro control for examble in groups with a monk or guardian when i dont get the guardian deaggro. this was maybe too much asked but warlocks get a 1position deaggro ive never asked for something like this cause i think this would be overpowerd to our class.so yeah the blue aoe proc by itself is ok - its even the best thing we have got since kos, since the time we lost our swashy dev. So yeah i think either removing the 5% aggro gain on spurious bravado OR an AOE Deaggro Proc on our Myth would make this realy ok - i would not ask for anything moreif nothing happens i only want to know why, i mean there must be a reason to this and if this is a good one i will accept it of course.seriously MizouSwashbuckler of Feral FiresValor

boogeyman13

03-02-2009, 11:21 PM

Swashbuckler <img src="http://everquest2.station.sony.com/images/classIcons/swashbuckler_lrg.gif" align="left" /> The Swashbuckler is a dashing rogue known for flamboyant acts and grandiose accomplishments. Using cunning and skill, Swashbucklers inflict devastating attacks against foes before slipping into the shadows. Masters of misdirection, Swashbucklers often avoid the blame for their potent strikes.I was reading this taken from the class description, taken from the main page for EQ2 in the class drop down. I kind of feel our hate transfer was in line with this description the "Masters of misdirection, Swashbucklers often avoid the blame for their potent strikes." I would like to see the transfer stay even if it was nerfed down a bit like our blame blade line if anybody else thinks I am being short sited asking this please point out the flaw in my approach please. I ask this so I can maybe learn more from the answers I get not to set a challenge.Thanks

Mizou

03-03-2009, 02:00 AM

like i said i would like aoe deaggro proc - a 3-5 or 8% aggro transfer proc would do the same anything that would not make us overpoweredi hate overpowered things like 15% flurry on assassin myth or warlocks doing 30k dps with only 4 spells (no procs included)

Raidyen

03-03-2009, 12:52 PM

Ok its been a week. Kiara we need some information. There is no reason why a dev cant answer 2 simple questions.1. Why did you remove the blue AoE proc? (the reason Aeralik gave as to why he removed it was based on incorrect information, which i sent to you in a PM)2. Can we please revisit the Swarthy Distraction line. In its current form it is broken. We are asking for 5 minutes of a dev's time to look at the points we have made about this spell, and consider our idea's. If he thinks its just fine the way it is, well fine, just say that.I also have a 3rd question.Why are we taking the biggest nerf to both our class defining ability hate transfer, and our mythical, yet getting no duscussion or support from, well, anyone? We are not an overpowered class, and the 2 things we are asking for are not overpowering either. Some discussion is needed, now. Even if its the Dev's saying, "tough guys, this is how it is", well atleast thats something. We did not ask for this change. It was forced onto us by the fighter changes, and it is unfair that your team is straight up ignoring us.

liveja

03-03-2009, 01:03 PM

<cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason why a dev cant answer 2 simple questions.</blockquote>"None of those things are changing, so there's nothing to say, & no reason to answer."To me, that's the unstated "answer" we're being given.

Raidyen

03-03-2009, 03:01 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason why a dev cant answer 2 simple questions.</blockquote>"None of those things are changing, so there's nothing to say, & no reason to answer."To me, that's the unstated "answer" we're being given.</blockquote>I am not ready to give up just yet. I have faith that at the very least Kiara is going to try. We will be hearing something one way or the other within the next couple of days. We just have to cross our fingers, and hope that Aeralik comes to his senses and makes the right decsion here.

Mannhec

03-03-2009, 03:34 PM

The Issues:<ol><li>Our Epic Weapon: We had a nearly perfect effect for a very short amount of time. A slight addition was requested, and instead we lost everything. We want the Blue AoE back. Toggleable or not, we just want this proc back.</li><li>Swarthy Disorder/et al: We are losing our primary raid desirability. Others do not ask for a Debuff class when requesting a Swash, they ask for a Hate Transfer. The current replacement is lackluster, at best. It seems like our class was the last one to be "fixed" before the Devs went home for the night. We want a suitable replacement to Swarthy Disorder. Many possibilities have been stated in this thread.</li></ol>These are the two primary issues. Address these and the Swash community as a whole will be much less vehement in our requests.

Ethi

03-03-2009, 06:04 PM

I'm curious about the future of the swashbuckler. Usually when I'm joining a group/raid situation people want me as a general dps class but the big draw is the hate transfer ability. With this going away our only draw is our dps?From a DPS point of view we are not the most desirable, I see assassins, rangers, wizards, warlocks as all primary dps classes and while with gear etc we do well these classes generally have a dps advantage.The other class that is an option is the brigand. I see brigands being in demand because of their ability to debuf mobs defense. This is a huge factor as I've seen this add an amazing amount of dps to an entire group. Which leaves me wondering if swashbucklers are going to all become brigands?What is the future for swashbucklers? Do we have a role other then just dps? I guess I have been reading that we don't which is kinda disappointing.... If things go forward like this will the swashbuckler become a rarely played class?

liveja

03-03-2009, 06:12 PM

<cite>Ethion wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is the future for swashbucklers?</blockquote>According to certain responses we've gotten, we're going to be Debuff Monkeys.

Raidyen

03-03-2009, 06:15 PM

People group with me because they enjoy looking at this amazingly sexy dwarf. The hate transfer and debuffs are just an added bonus for them.

Ethi

03-03-2009, 06:54 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ethion wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is the future for swashbucklers?</blockquote>According to certain responses we've gotten, we're going to be Debuff Monkeys.</blockquote>I'm not sure anyone has every focused on me as being desired for my debufs. The only thing I hear about debufs is with reguard to brigands.Dispatched master 1 does like 4973 decrease to mitigation vs all damage types. With AA and stuff this goes over 6000. I've seen this add a LOT of dps to a group. So I'm not sure what debufs are really making us destinct?Course we have tripple blades, if all 3 hit it dubufs mitigation by 1008. Kidney stab decreases mitigation by 622 vs crush,slash,piercing.Then we have quick stab that decreases dps by 40 compared with brigands jagged blade that decreases attack speed by 27%. So assuming it is only melee damage that is affected I checked the damage of a recent battle with a deepwater knight mob. Melee damage last night was 463dps. So our ability is around an 8% decrease in damage where a 27% reduction in attack speed is a 27% reduction...The more I look into this and compare the abilities of the classes the more I'm seeing an imbalance which really leaves the swashbuckler looking deficient. Am I missing something or are there imbalances really this bad?

Slowin

03-03-2009, 07:09 PM

Hate transfer or not i would always want a swashbuckler on the raid. Their offensive debuffs do make a difference, and 10% reduction to aoe damage from traumatic swipe is also very helpful. Also, swashbucklers bring a huge amount of dps to the table. They parse above brigands especially on aoe fights. The difference with the changes now is that the swashbuckler doesn't have to be in the MT group and instead can take a spot in one of the dps groups, making raid setups more flexible.This doesn't mean that the replacement to swarthy distraction is an adequate one, but it certainly isn't going to destroy the class -- far from it.

Raidyen

03-03-2009, 07:11 PM

<cite>Ethion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ethion wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is the future for swashbucklers?</blockquote>According to certain responses we've gotten, we're going to be Debuff Monkeys.</blockquote>I'm not sure anyone has every focused on me as being desired for my debufs. The only thing I hear about debufs is with reguard to brigands.Dispatched master 1 does like 4973 decrease to mitigation vs all damage types. With AA and stuff this goes over 6000. I've seen this add a LOT of dps to a group. So I'm not sure what debufs are really making us destinct?Course we have tripple blades, if all 3 hit it dubufs mitigation by 1008. Kidney stab decreases mitigation by 622 vs crush,slash,piercing.Then we have quick stab that decreases dps by 40 compared with brigands jagged blade that decreases attack speed by 27%. So assuming it is only melee damage that is affected I checked the damage of a recent battle with a deepwater knight mob. Melee damage last night was 463dps. So our ability is around an 8% decrease in damage where a 27% reduction in attack speed is a 27% reduction...The more I look into this and compare the abilities of the classes the more I'm seeing an imbalance which really leaves the swashbuckler looking deficient. Am I missing something or are there imbalances really this bad?</blockquote>In all seriousness, the Swashbuckler debuffs are honestly quite powerful. The problem is that people do not see the benefits to our debuffs like they do with the Brigand. A brigand debuffs, everyone sees thier DPS parse go up. A swashbuckler debuffs, nobody notices that the healers reduced the amount they had to heal by 30 or 40%, or that the tank took a greatly reduced amount of damage.Next time your in Palace, leave the swashy out of the fight on a trash mob and see what the MT healers have to heal for, and look at the amount of dmg the MT took. Then toss in the swashy debuffs and compare.True story, last named in CoA back when RoK was fairly new, my wife on her paladin, me on my wizard, and our friend on his warlock tried to trio the last named. No matter what we couldnt do it. Just didnt stand a chance. I decided to switch over to my swashy who up to this point was pretty much just my solo character for the most part. I parsed about the same as my wizard. However the debuffs allowed us to take down the named with never having to kite him. Just the paladin standing toe to toe healing herself. The only difference between the 2 fights were the debuffs.Been a swashbuckler ever since, and will never go back.Now all that said we are known for our hate transfer, and loosing it is going to put a dent in our desirability in both groups and raids. Doesnt mean we are useless, just means we have to find new ways to impress.

OutcastBlade

03-03-2009, 08:05 PM

I notice the debuffs a lot when raiding hard encounters and when tanking instances. They do make a difference.

Ethi

03-03-2009, 09:53 PM

<cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ethion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ethion wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is the future for swashbucklers?</blockquote>According to certain responses we've gotten, we're going to be Debuff Monkeys.</blockquote>I'm not sure anyone has every focused on me as being desired for my debufs. The only thing I hear about debufs is with reguard to brigands.Dispatched master 1 does like 4973 decrease to mitigation vs all damage types. With AA and stuff this goes over 6000. I've seen this add a LOT of dps to a group. So I'm not sure what debufs are really making us destinct?Course we have tripple blades, if all 3 hit it dubufs mitigation by 1008. Kidney stab decreases mitigation by 622 vs crush,slash,piercing.Then we have quick stab that decreases dps by 40 compared with brigands jagged blade that decreases attack speed by 27%. So assuming it is only melee damage that is affected I checked the damage of a recent battle with a deepwater knight mob. Melee damage last night was 463dps. So our ability is around an 8% decrease in damage where a 27% reduction in attack speed is a 27% reduction...The more I look into this and compare the abilities of the classes the more I'm seeing an imbalance which really leaves the swashbuckler looking deficient. Am I missing something or are there imbalances really this bad?</blockquote>In all seriousness, the Swashbuckler debuffs are honestly quite powerful. The problem is that people do not see the benefits to our debuffs like they do with the Brigand. A brigand debuffs, everyone sees thier DPS parse go up. A swashbuckler debuffs, nobody notices that the healers reduced the amount they had to heal by 30 or 40%, or that the tank took a greatly reduced amount of damage.Next time your in Palace, leave the swashy out of the fight on a trash mob and see what the MT healers have to heal for, and look at the amount of dmg the MT took. Then toss in the swashy debuffs and compare.True story, last named in CoA back when RoK was fairly new, my wife on her paladin, me on my wizard, and our friend on his warlock tried to trio the last named. No matter what we couldnt do it. Just didnt stand a chance. I decided to switch over to my swashy who up to this point was pretty much just my solo character for the most part. I parsed about the same as my wizard. However the debuffs allowed us to take down the named with never having to kite him. Just the paladin standing toe to toe healing herself. The only difference between the 2 fights were the debuffs.Been a swashbuckler ever since, and will never go back.Now all that said we are known for our hate transfer, and loosing it is going to put a dent in our desirability in both groups and raids. Doesnt mean we are useless, just means we have to find new ways to impress.</blockquote>Just curious what debufs are being refered to that make such a difference in healing?

Kiara

03-03-2009, 09:59 PM

Hey all.I've brought up the subject of getting back your blue aoe again. I regret to say that for now it's going to stay the way it is.I won't stop providing your feedback to the team, though, so please continue to give it to me to pass along.

SantiagoDraco

03-03-2009, 10:16 PM

Welcome to development by attitude or "how not to treat your customers".Grats on further eroding your playerbase's good will..

Oxie

03-03-2009, 10:23 PM

Not shocked that any of the suggested ideas that people brought forward were shot down. Chalk me up as another disappointed customer who has been playing only the swashbuckler class since launch. Thanks for being the go between, Kiara...just wish you had better news for us...

Thundy

03-03-2009, 10:23 PM

CenturaEQ

03-03-2009, 10:25 PM

Well, thank you Kiara for actually replying to us. Can't say the same to some other people... Also, that's a very weak reply for a weeks wait.It's just great that we lose A LOT, and don't gain a SINGLE thing. Just great...EDIT: Typos...

Raidyen

03-03-2009, 10:40 PM

I have to say i expected this response. Thanks for the update Kiara. Gloves are now coming off though when it come to Aeralik. I am done being nice with this guy. NO REASON to not switch it back, none what so ever.

Bookbunny

03-03-2009, 10:42 PM

I am no longer going to test server because it is clear that aerlick is going to do whatever he wants based on his very slanted opinion of how the game should be. Feedback is a waste of my time and I am not going to pay to be a bug-finder.

bloodrage42

03-03-2009, 11:27 PM

I mean honestly, is there a VALId reason as to why the swashbuckler community gets the shaft with everything? why is it that aeralik has a problem with us; and why is it that he wants to screw us over by taunting a upgrade in our face then snatching it away an making our mythical even worse?Sony you really hit the nail on the head when you picked him as a developer, GG.

Bookbunny

03-04-2009, 12:25 AM

Kanlei

03-04-2009, 12:27 AM

I went from a GU 51 shafted bruiser to a GU 51 shafted swash.Guess I'll roll a OP sk or oh god even better a Darkelf Assassin

Obadiah

03-04-2009, 12:51 AM

<cite>Kanlei wrote:</cite><blockquote>I went from a GU 51 shafted bruiser to a GU 51 shafted swash.Guess I'll roll a OP sk or oh god even better a Darkelf Assassin</blockquote>GU 51 shafted Berserker, RoK/TSO shafted Necro.Was going to switch to Swash .....but nevermind. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Aeralik

03-04-2009, 01:19 AM

Several of us talked about this subject this morning. In the end, we decided to leave it as it is. Compared to the current version its an overall improvement in that it fixes the dot issue. The update removes all of the hate transfers and not just the swashbucklers so you are not being singled out here with the new effect plus you still have other hate manipulations leaving the hate as a secondary role.In regards to the blue aoe, it never went to live and was thus always subject to change before release. Valid concerns were brought up like not having a proc in some situations, lack of similarity to the other pred/rogue epics with a missing enhancement buff and other miscellaneous things. In the end, we took a more simplistic approach going with a basic proc that is always on and had a clear "buff" effect on it. Since the brigand has double attack that removed that choice. DPS and haste were out as well since those are far to simple to get. Combat art damage was another option but it works better with a class like a ranger where there is room for larger values while the swashbuckler tends to have faster refresh but weaker CA abilities. Accuracy was another option but it has a high impact with low values and is already seeing some overuse with things like the dirge set pieces. Crit bonus was mentioned in this thread but is highly powerful and more of a TSO era effect. So in the end, we went with the Melee crit. I realize some people are capped with this effect but thats not necessarily true of every swashbuckler. It gives you options to go for other gear if you are capped while still enhancing you if you are not capped. In the end, regardless of the effect someone isnt going to be happy. So going with a simple to understand proc instead and clear consistancy in design when compared to the predators and rogues seems to be the best option when you consider the broader playerbase and not just the high end raider.

DngrMou

03-04-2009, 01:27 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Several of us talked about this subject this morning. In the end, we decided to leave it as it is. Compared to the current version its an overall improvement in that it fixes the dot issue. The update removes all of the hate transfers and not just the swashbucklers so you are not being singled out here with the new effect plus you still have other hate manipulations leaving the hate as a secondary role.In regards to the blue aoe, it never went to live and was thus always subject to change before release. Valid concerns were brought up like not having a proc in some situations, lack of similarity to the other pred/rogue epics with a missing enhancement buff and other miscellaneous things. In the end, we took a more simplistic approach going with a basic proc that is always on and had a clear "buff" effect on it. Since the brigand has double attack that removed that choice. DPS and haste were out as well since those are far to simple to get. Combat art damage was another option but it works better with a class like a ranger where there is room for larger values while the swashbuckler tends to have faster refresh but weaker CA abilities. Accuracy was another option but it has a high impact with low values and is already seeing some overuse with things like the dirge set pieces. Crit bonus was mentioned in this thread but is highly powerful and more of a TSO era effect. So in the end, we went with the Melee crit. I realize some people are capped with this effect but thats not necessarily true of every swashbuckler. It gives you options to go for other gear if you are capped while still enhancing you if you are not capped. In the end, regardless of the effect someone isnt going to be happy. So going with a simple to understand proc instead and clear consistancy in design when compared to the predators and rogues seems to be the best option when you consider the broader playerbase and not just the high end raider.</blockquote>Thank you for responding.I have a question concerning our hate transfer. As it stands, it provides utility to the swash, (caster), group or raid he's in, and tank he's got it on. The replacement for that spell provides no de-hate for the swashbuckler at all. Why not keep the percentage based transfer, and make it a temp effect for X seconds? We are losing utility in this update, and quite a bit, imo. I, for one, would like to see the dark and gloomy side of GU-51 with the same utility I do on this side. In your opinion, does this update accomplish this? Could you explain this please.

CenturaEQ

03-04-2009, 01:46 AM

Thank you for your reply Aeralik.I'm really, really disappointed that you just didn't leave the proc as AOE. There was just some very minor issues/complaints, and even though of those small issues, it was a lot better than Single Target Proc + 15% MC.And you know, I thought Epics was supposed to be unique. I guess I was wrong.Now take a look at Swarthy line. Currently, it's not that good, and I would like to see it tweaked a bit, or even a major change to it (and yes, I have been on Test Copy and tested it).Edited my post a bit.

bloodrage42

03-04-2009, 02:18 AM

I'm a bit confused on why we were even told about a blue aoe proc to begin with on our mythic then Aeralik if you knew and the developmet team knew it would be revamped and revoked. Did you mention it just to stir up some ruckus about our mythic then childishly reconsider because you want to be the dev your reputation preceeds you to be? this is really a interesting way for someone to interact with their customers.

Foolsfolly

03-04-2009, 02:35 AM

I see...so we had to get rid of the blue aoe proc, because it wasn't perfect, and wouldn't be completely useful to everybody at all times.And instead we went with melee crit, which also isn't perfect, but has the advantage of letting us farm all new gear that doesn't have melee crit on it.Neither solution is perfect, but both can be useful. The blue aoe was much more unique and interesting, and it's pretty clear that it's what all of the swashbucklers would prefer.

Mizou

03-04-2009, 02:45 AM

i hope a new non sony games comes out soonbye soe

SantiagoDraco

03-04-2009, 02:47 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Several of us talked about this subject this morning. In the end, we decided to leave it as it is. Compared to the current version its an overall improvement in that it fixes the dot issue. The update removes all of the hate transfers and not just the swashbucklers so you are not being singled out here with the new effect plus you still have other hate manipulations leaving the hate as a secondary role.In regards to the blue aoe, it never went to live and was thus always subject to change before release. Valid concerns were brought up like not having a proc in some situations, lack of similarity to the other pred/rogue epics with a missing enhancement buff and other miscellaneous things. In the end, we took a more simplistic approach going with a basic proc that is always on and had a clear "buff" effect on it. Since the brigand has double attack that removed that choice. DPS and haste were out as well since those are far to simple to get. Combat art damage was another option but it works better with a class like a ranger where there is room for larger values while the swashbuckler tends to have faster refresh but weaker CA abilities. Accuracy was another option but it has a high impact with low values and is already seeing some overuse with things like the dirge set pieces. Crit bonus was mentioned in this thread but is highly powerful and more of a TSO era effect. So in the end, we went with the Melee crit. I realize some people are capped with this effect but thats not necessarily true of every swashbuckler. It gives you options to go for other gear if you are capped while still enhancing you if you are not capped. In the end, regardless of the effect someone isnt going to be happy. So going with a simple to understand proc instead and clear consistancy in design when compared to the predators and rogues seems to be the best option when you consider the broader playerbase and not just the high end raider.</blockquote>Some response is better than no response.So, how about at least bumping the proc damage a bit? It's lower than the original proc damage considering the change PLUS it procs less frequently if I remember correctly

Morinehtar

03-04-2009, 03:47 AM

Thanks for responding.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The update removes all of the hate transfers and not just the swashbucklers so you are not being singled out here with the new effect plus you still have other hate manipulations leaving the hate as a secondary role.</blockquote>Nevertheless our role in raids will change considerably. While we used to get a spot in MT/OT groups for our hate x-fer, we will end up in random groups come gu 51. Please understand that a lot of people are not happy with that. We used to be dps and hate x-fer, now we are dps only. Our debuffs are not nearly as effective as say the brigs' debuffs. This means our role as a class is far less defined than before.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>So going with a simple to understand proc instead and clear consistancy in design when compared to the predators and rogues seems to be the best option when you consider the broader playerbase and not just the high end raider.</blockquote>Sorry, but this logic is flawed. By design, mythicals are intended for high end raiders only, so their effects should be tailored to the needs of those players. That is, unless you approve of the selling of mythical updates.Crit is so easy to get nowadays. Some classes get some really cool and powerful effects, and we get the short end of the stick again. If you really want to make people happy, give us back the blue AoE. Nobody in their right mind will like the change from AoE to a cheap single target proc.

Tyralor

03-04-2009, 04:02 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I realize some people are capped with this effect but thats not necessarily true of every swashbuckler. It gives you options to go for other gear if you are capped while still enhancing you if you are not capped. In the end, regardless of the effect someone isnt going to be happy. So going with a simple to understand proc instead and clear consistancy in design when compared to the predators and rogues seems to be the best option when you consider the broader playerbase and not just the high end raider.</blockquote>I disagree there. I just joined a raidguild a month ago and got my mythical and a few VP drops on the run. But the rest of my gear is mainly legendary TSO gear, not even good one. I still get to 90 melee crit in raids. Any swashbuckler that is in a guild that can clear VP will get there. So the effect will be just about useless to us.A blue AoE proc can always be used except in very rare situations. I cannot recall turning off hurricane, except for the pesty ghosts in Necrotic Asylum. My berserker alt has his mythical as well and since he got it, he never turned off the AOE attack. I cannot image any reason why to turn off a blue AOE proc.Blue AE proc = class defining and useful ability for swashies15 melee crit proc = useless, you can as well remove it

Kiara

03-04-2009, 04:18 AM

I just want to remind you guys that we're doing our very best to make the best game we can for you.I know that it's frustrating sometimes and it may feel like your feedback isn't being heard, but it is and it's very valuable for us. I encourage everyone to keep exploring the changes that are being made and continuing to give us your comments on how it's working for you.

Mizou

03-04-2009, 05:32 AM

if blue aoe proc wont come back there wont be much to talk about, some raids still want 1 swashy maybe cause some mobs hit like a truck but for any dps raid out there .... swashy is nonsense we have been a t2 dps class since erm let me think t6 ? we can do serious dps but well ok let me say it this way:i do 12k dps - my assassin does 16k , i do 16k dps my assassin does 20k , i do 20k dps (aoe encounter) the assassin in my guild does 21k ... there is no more to say - this class dies since t7 (end kos when wis line became useless) and its dead with lu51i will look for another game problem is only i need a new pc, who cares

Ujina

03-04-2009, 06:44 AM

<cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to remind you guys that we're doing our very best to make the best game we can for you.I know that it's frustrating sometimes and it may feel like your feedback isn't being heard, but it is and it's very valuable for us. I encourage everyone to keep exploring the changes that are being made and continuing to give us your comments on how it's working for you.</blockquote>You already has more than 15 pages in this topic about that mythical change and the change to our hate Xfer and the result is...nothing changed.As some of us said the mythical was supposed to be an unique weapon, very powerful but what did we get ? cheap generic proc, yay for uniqueness. It's easier to do the same proc for all melee dps with a little "variation" (da or mc and that's all the options left), before the hate change it was quite a nice proc, unique and conforting us in our role. Now ? it's dps only, does it means we are pure dps now ? if yes...why are we behind assassins ? they are pure dps as us.So ? should we get some buffing in dps department ? will we stay as we are now on test and but a weak version of assassins or will we get something else to give us a role in group and raids ( and something that will last more than a few GU...).Why not a +15% AoE auto attack instead of the crappy overused melee critics ?You should be very careful when you change things like that, you're showing the carrot but all we get is the nerfbat in our teeth, people don't like that

Thundy

03-04-2009, 09:15 AM

Noaani

03-04-2009, 09:19 AM

BaronVonPitviper

03-04-2009, 09:19 AM

<cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to remind you guys that we're doing our very best to make the best game we can for you.I know that it's frustrating sometimes and it may feel like your feedback isn't being heard, but it is and it's very valuable for us. I encourage everyone to keep exploring the changes that are being made and continuing to give us your comments on how it's working for you.</blockquote>thank you for supplying us with information.I, however, must admit this news released is beyond disheartening. Your team is IGNORING the fact that the MAIN reason we were brought to raids (Pick Up raids included) was our HATE Transfer. Raid leaders would get one swashy and stop looking.No matter what you believe in your closed door meetings to be true about raiding, the raiding player base only looks for swashies for hate transfer. Other bonuses of the class, they could care less about. Change hate mechanics and you take away what we offered. Don't get me wrong, I dont argue at all with your desire to change hate mechanics. You are removing our role and giving us NOTHING effective in return to fight for general spot(s) in raids! Do you not understand that? Or is it that you do not care about that portion of the player base? It can only be one or the other of these two questions, and either choice is unacceptable to me in a game design situation.

Thundy

03-04-2009, 09:22 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Several of us talked about this subject this morning. In the end, we decided to leave it as it is. Compared to the current version its an overall improvement in that it fixes the dot issue. The update removes all of the hate transfers and not just the swashbucklers so you are not being singled out here with the new effect plus you still have other hate manipulations leaving the hate as a secondary role.In regards to the blue aoe, it never went to live and was thus always subject to change before release. Valid concerns were brought up like not having a proc in some situations, lack of similarity to the other pred/rogue epics with a missing enhancement buff and other miscellaneous things. In the end, we took a more simplistic approach going with a basic proc that is always on and had a clear "buff" effect on it. Since the brigand has double attack that removed that choice. DPS and haste were out as well since those are far to simple to get. Combat art damage was another option but it works better with a class like a ranger where there is room for larger values while the swashbuckler tends to have faster refresh but weaker CA abilities. Accuracy was another option but it has a high impact with low values and is already seeing some overuse with things like the dirge set pieces. Crit bonus was mentioned in this thread but is highly powerful and more of a TSO era effect. So in the end, we went with the Melee crit. I realize some people are capped with this effect but thats not necessarily true of every swashbuckler. It gives you options to go for other gear if you are capped while still enhancing you if you are not capped. In the end, regardless of the effect someone isnt going to be happy. So going with a simple to understand proc instead and clear consistancy in design when compared to the predators and rogues seems to be the best option when you consider the broader playerbase and not just the high end raider.</blockquote>Your logic is really flawed here. High-end raiders ARE the ones who have myths, unless you are endorsing selling mythical updates?At the very least bump the damage on our extremely annoying, very non-unique effect, it sucks currently.As for hate transfer you are just plain WRONG. Fine, take away everyones, but you give us absolutely nothing in return. In fact you made us worse with this terrible mythical. But I know we will never see a response to this again so what is the point I guess, right? You win.sorry to be so curt but you deserve it.

Katanalla

03-04-2009, 09:30 AM

Yep, 1 swash all you need in a raid, but multiple brigs is okay, multiple assassins okay-- that new pred aa debuff is pretty hot, why not have more preds now to keep that rolling, or brig dispatched?Its atleast motivation for me to level my templar to 80 finally I suppose.

Windowlicker

03-04-2009, 09:34 AM

<cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yep, 1 swash all you need in a raid, but multiple brigs is okay, multiple assassins okay-- that new pred aa debuff is pretty hot, why not have more preds now to keep that rolling, or brig dispatched?Its atleast motivation for me to level my templar to 80 finally I suppose.</blockquote>Noooo, your templar sucks!

Mizou

03-04-2009, 09:49 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mizou wrote:</cite><blockquote>if blue aoe proc wont come back there wont be much to talk about, some raids still want 1 swashy maybe cause some mobs hit like a truck but for any dps raid out there .... swashy is nonsense we have been a t2 dps class since erm let me think t6 ? we can do serious dps but well ok let me say it this way:i do 12k dps - my assassin does 16k , i do 16k dps my assassin does 20k , i do 20k dps (aoe encounter) the assassin in my guild does 21k ... there is no more to say - this class dies since t7 (end kos when wis line became useless) and its dead with lu51i will look for another game problem is only i need a new pc, who cares</blockquote>I can tell you now, no guild is going to drop a swashbuckler in favor of an assassin simply because your mythical does not have a blue AE on it.Having another TS is in itself worth the raid losing 4k DPS.</blockquote>if u read all my posts its not only about myth change to a blue aoe - ive never ment that. ty

Mizou

03-04-2009, 09:55 AM

oh and btw coercer still have 10% hatetransfer kkthxbye

Katanalla

03-04-2009, 10:14 AM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yep, 1 swash all you need in a raid, but multiple brigs is okay, multiple assassins okay-- that new pred aa debuff is pretty hot, why not have more preds now to keep that rolling, or brig dispatched?Its atleast motivation for me to level my templar to 80 finally I suppose.</blockquote>Noooo, your templar sucks!</blockquote>Smallbones shall rule Mistmoore with an iron potato wedge! He already has his emergency reactive and group heal m1'd, and he isn't even 80 yet <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Anyways I'd love even 10% xfer as well -- MT group our self buffs really depends upon, yay dps group, now we get 300 haste and 40 dps mod... how about some dps mod zomg! like +30 dps mod static on that sucker or something omg lols

returntosender

03-04-2009, 11:02 AM

If you decided to keep it simple "So going with a simple to understand proc instead and clear consistancy in design when compared to the predators and rogues seems to be the best option when you consider the broader playerbase and not just the high end raider." why are we the only class forced to an aa end ability? I am not a high end raider and I am at cap when I raid, if you are able to get your mythical you are able to easily cap crit. This is the result I expected so I am not shocked we got the shaft here. I said before once it hits live I am done. I wonder how many accounts can be lost over one single update before someone gets canned? For the record I do not think this will hurt our dps (other than being dead to hurricane) but in no way does it help the majority of us. If it wont help the majority of us then "class defining" means the definition of our class is what exactly?

Stray

03-04-2009, 11:19 AM

<cite>Mizou wrote:</cite><blockquote>if blue aoe proc wont come back there wont be much to talk about, some raids still want 1 swashy maybe cause some mobs hit like a truck but for any dps raid out there .... swashy is nonsense we have been a t2 dps class since erm let me think t6 ?</blockquote>Mizou, thank you. You hit the nail on the head.<ul><li>I felt really bad about how this class got treated around the time when they RUINED the Fencing line, which sort of made us stand out. </li><li>It took ages to make you understand you had to fix SoH. </li><li>This time, I WILL FEEL MISERABLE in raids, knowing that we will be subpar AT ANYTHING WE DO. I have already had raid leaders explain that swashies will not be in the MT group anymore. So much fun hearing that announced during a raid, knowing there will not be ANYTHING USEFUL AT ALL in return! The swash raiding experience will be like playing a different game alltogether. </li></ul>I just got my 5 year reward. I calculated the amount of money I spent on this game. I am very close to deciding that continuously getting treated like this, is not worth it anymore.Aeralik, I run dev teams. You will never make my team. it's a concept called 'understanding the customer' that you apparantly are unable to grasp. LISTEN. Give us a ROLE. Make us stand out. Stop making us suck worse with every major update. That stunt that you pulled with that AoE is like.. unforgivable to your (yes, YOUR) community. That was a really wonderful piece of communication with your <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer" target="_blank">CUSTOMERS</a>! (You might wanna check out this link, it's really helpful)Kiara, thank you for at least communicating to the community. I'm sorry that I dont have a more distinguished message. Imaging playing only ONE class for five years and seeing it being shredded furder and further. Just imagine the frustration this causes.At least my new fireworks will allow me to leave this game with a bang. Thank you SoE for ruining the game for me.

Powers

03-04-2009, 11:41 AM

If raid leaders are excluding anyone because of what class they play, you need to find new raid leaders.Such pettiness and anguish over such minor, trivial differences.Do you see, SOE? This is what happens when you ramp up difficulty the way you have in Kunark and especially TSO. All of a sudden min/maxing out your AAs and gear becomes critical to completing content, and your playerbase gravitates toward a particular set of choices that are considered "optimal". The lesson you should take from this is that people who complain that top-end content is too easy will never be satisfied; attempting to satisfy them with ridiculously hard content will only frustrate the larger majority of your playerbase.Stop the min-maxing! Stop the exponential progression curve! The mere fact that there are apparently now multiple "tiers" of level 80 is positively insane. Isn't that was levels 81-90 were supposed to delineate? Wasn't this game supposed to have a linear progression up to at least level 100, and maybe 200? Wasn't that the original vision, instead of EQ-style "this level 80 is better than that level 80 because of the AAs they chose"?)Powers &8^]

jack of shadowgua

03-04-2009, 11:43 AM

<cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey all.I've brought up the subject of getting back your blue aoe again. I regret to say that for now it's going to stay the way it is.I won't stop providing your feedback to the team, though, so please continue to give it to me to pass along.</blockquote>Thanks.Since it appears that customer satisfaction is NOT a priority, I regret to say that I'll be CANCELLING my account.Providing feedback is a waste of time since it is completely ignored. They only ask for it in order to trick you into thinking that player feedback will make the slightest difference and to keep you subscribing to this broken game. As long as people keep paying for the substandard c r a p they pump out nothing will ever be fixed.

Mannhec

03-04-2009, 11:45 AM

Ok, I'm going to make this big and bold in hopes that someone will actually read it and let it run through their (apparently empty) heads...You are removing the Swashbuckler role in the game and giving us NOTHING in return. We are called a hate transfer DPS class. We are not called a debuff class, we just happen to have debuffs on our DPS CAs.You state that we are a debuffing class, yet we are a second or third rate debuffer at best. Our counterpart in the "great scheme of EQ2," the Brigand, has one of the most powerful (if not the most powerful) debuffs in the game, yet we have nothing even remotely similar in power.You dangled a carrot in front of us with the blue AoE proc then removed it with no valid reasoning as to why. It took you weeks (over a month possibly) to finally come back and state why. This is horrible customer service; there is no excuse for this. You refuse to listen to your customers and instead are pushing this game towards your own "vision" regardless of what those paying your paychecks (the players) want. Yes, we should not control the game, but we know the current game better than any Dev seems to.If all of these changes go through, I expect to log in and have a free option to switch to Brigand as the Swashbuckler class will no longer be of any use for raids or groups.

Awlis

03-04-2009, 11:47 AM

well I join with many in saying how dissapointing I find this.I think thats whilst others are effected by the hate changes, swashbucklers are really effectd by this.. yes its a wide ranging change however I don't think it balancing to remove a class defining ability from a class and simply replace it with something no one wants!The aoe was a good idea.. it helped to build on the ideal of a swashbuckler as an aoe class.. the crit increase on a weapon that is really for a raiding swashy is a bad idea... we already have the crit!!! An idea would to be to give us a flurry or an hurrican bonus.. but please not a bonus to an ability we already have and that is all to easy to get.As far as swopping to new gear.. will you make more da/flurry bous stuff so we have sometthing to swop too? or will these stats be added to our set peices in reflection to the fact we are already capped with mythical??I am not gonna throw a tantrum and pretend I am going to leave the game.. I enjoy it still alot.. however I cant pretend to blame people that may leave and this udate does leave a sour taste in my mouth.

Kanlei

03-04-2009, 11:56 AM

I find his post....amazing...just amazing. High end raiders are the ones that have their mythicals. Not casuals. Well unless you count the hundreds of people that buy mythical updates from the "hard core" raid guilds. So since this new proc your adding is suppose to be for the player base and not desined for just high end raiders, your prety much promoting "hard core" guilds to sell mythical udpates?Your people skill sucks it really does. I'm not even going into detail when you called Bruiser's "AoE" tanks. All I can say to that is wow....just wow. Divide and Conquer does not justify making a Bruiser a "AoE" tank considering it gets resisted more then it lands.Now your killing the swash community. Literally, killing them. I read the post all three hours+ of them. I don't recall seeing anywhere that they hated the blue AoE clicky, they in fact loved it, they just wanted it to be controlled, which you did by adding the clicky to it. All they asked was can you add a proc or stat to it as well. You could of very easily said no. This AoE clicky has a lot of potential and you really wont need an added proc or stat. Did you though? Nope you teased and took away. Amazing. Countless people have said this is the last straw, this game is already struggling to keep a wide player base as it is. Maybe just maybe the devs at SoE should listen to their customers. No you wont make "everyone" happy but if you actually took the time to have several devs looking into each class, this would not be such the burden your making it.I for one am done with this game. There are two/three classes I enjoy playing. Monk, Swash,Bruiser. I have tried all the other classes and find them boring. Monk/Bruiser well yea you only need one of these to raid, no "real" use in having both. Now swash. Well their no good for xfer anymore so we'll stick em in the dps group. If thats the case, then serisouly if I was you, I would really and I mean really look into boosting their damage.

Zaphrod

03-04-2009, 11:56 AM

For the first time since launch I don't want to log on. It's too depressing to have the heart and soul of your class taken away and be turned into a joyless excersie in medocity. It's pretty easy to figure out what makes playing a class fun: being useful and being unique. We have little of either now and I feel like we're just a "generic scout", like those cheap boxes of imitation Corn Flakes you can buy at the supermarket. Damnit, playing a swashie used to be fun. We had swagger and style. The swagger is now gone.

jack of shadowgua

03-04-2009, 12:00 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Several of us talked about this subject this morning. In the end, we decided to leave it as it is. Compared to the current version its an overall improvement in that it fixes the dot issue. The update removes all of the hate transfers and not just the swashbucklers so you are not being singled out here with the new effect plus you still have other hate manipulations leaving the hate as a secondary role.In regards to the blue aoe, it never went to live and was thus always subject to change before release. Valid concerns were brought up like not having a proc in some situations, lack of similarity to the other pred/rogue epics with a missing enhancement buff and other miscellaneous things. In the end, we took a more simplistic approach going with a basic proc that is always on and had a clear "buff" effect on it. Since the brigand has double attack that removed that choice. DPS and haste were out as well since those are far to simple to get. Combat art damage was another option but it works better with a class like a ranger where there is room for larger values while the swashbuckler tends to have faster refresh but weaker CA abilities. Accuracy was another option but it has a high impact with low values and is already seeing some overuse with things like the dirge set pieces. Crit bonus was mentioned in this thread but is highly powerful and more of a TSO era effect. So in the end, we went with the Melee crit. I realize some people are capped with this effect but thats not necessarily true of every swashbuckler. It gives you options to go for other gear if you are capped while still enhancing you if you are not capped. In the end, regardless of the effect someone isnt going to be happy. So going with a simple to understand proc instead and clear consistancy in design when compared to the predators and rogues seems to be the best option when you consider the broader playerbase and not just the high end raider.</blockquote>You must think we are stupid. This response is pure feces. When i fill out my cancellation survey you will be the primary factor mentioned.