Encouraging Grouping in Lower Tiers [Archive]

Rahatmattata

02-03-2009, 06:49 PM

Many people would prefer to solo rather than group in the lower tiers because soloing is much more rewarding than grouping for the most part. IMO, this is pretty much backwards. Not everyone will agree I know, but I feel grouping should be more rewarding than soloing for various reasons beyond the scope of this post. So, here are a few suggestions for encouraging players to group in the lower levels of the game (sub 70).<ul><li>Nerf solo quest AA xp. I'm sure this won't be a popular suggestion, but hey whatever. Solo questing is too rewarding.</li><li>Inrease heroic quest AA xp.</li><li>Increase the AA amount on named mobs by quite a bit. This would include solo named mobs, but would give people more of an incentive to group for dungeons, instances, and overland heroic named.</li><li>Implement heroic quests for heroic content. Especially things like giants and gnolls in Thunderring Steppes. Kill 100 giants and get legendary legs; kill 100 gnolls and get legendary BP; kill 100 giants and 100 gnolls get fabled weapon. Just a generic example.</li><li>Revisist old instances such as the instances in Freeport sewers, Condemned Catacombs, Valley of the Rogue Magi, Firemist Gulley, etc. and make them worth doing by putting worthwhile loot there and having a questline sending you there.</li><li>Make legendary/fabled group drops comparable to mastercrafted gear. I believe a level 32 legendary drop should be equal, if not better than level 32 mastercrafted for example. This is rarely the case.</li><li>Get rid of the despawning epics mechanic. People don't bother making groups to kill these when they just de-pop before you can form up and pull.</li></ul>I think it's important to encourage grouping throughout the entire game, not just at level cap. Revamping all the older content to solo so people can use it is not as good as leaving it heroic and giving players worthwhile reasons to do the content. All the new soloquests in Everfrost with the legendary rewards... those could have been implemented in Permafrost and people would have done the quests. It is too troublesome to get a group together for one or two updates. Everfrost could have been done to lead up to heroic quests with heroic mobs with legendary/fabled rewards comparable to mastercrafted gear that eventually leads to Permafrost. And heroic quests shouldn't be like solo quests where you kill 10 of this, talk to npc, harvest 10 of that, talk to npc, kill 10 of those, talk to npc. More along the lines of kill 25 of these, kill this named mob, talk to npc at the end of the group to turn in all quests and get rewards.I think it's a shame yet another zone with good grouping potential is going to be wasted into non-challeging solo bore-fest when it could have heroic quests with good rewards leading up and into Solusek's Eye. And there are a couple of instances that could be worth hitting along the way if they were giving a little revamp to make the boss mobs do stuff other than get tanked and burned, and drop loot that won't instantly go to the vendor in favor of mastercrafted.

Zarador

02-03-2009, 07:16 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Many people would prefer to solo rather than group in the lower tiers because soloing is much more rewarding than grouping for the most part. IMO, this is pretty much backwards. Not everyone will agree I know, but I feel grouping should be more rewarding than soloing for various reasons beyond the scope of this post. So, here are a few suggestions for encouraging players to group in the lower levels of the game (sub 70).<ul><li>Nerf solo quest AA xp. I'm sure this won't be a popular suggestion, but hey whatever. Solo questing is too rewarding.</li><li>Inrease heroic quest AA xp.</li><li>Increase the AA amount on named mobs by quite a bit. This would include solo named mobs, but would give people more of an incentive to group for dungeons, instances, and overland heroic named.</li><li>Implement heroic quests for heroic content. Especially things like giants and gnolls in Thunderring Steppes. Kill 100 giants and get legendary legs; kill 100 gnolls and get legendary BP; kill 100 giants and 100 gnolls get fabled weapon. Just a generic example.</li><li>Revisist old instances such as the instances in Freeport sewers, Condemned Catacombs, Valley of the Rogue Magi, Firemist Gulley, etc. and make them worth doing by putting worthwhile loot there and having a questline sending you there.</li><li>Make legendary/fabled group drops comparable to mastercrafted gear. I believe a level 32 legendary drop should be equal, if not better than level 32 mastercrafted for example. This is rarely the case.</li><li>Get rid of the despawning epics mechanic. People don't bother making groups to kill these when they just de-pop before you can form up and pull.</li></ul>I think it's important to encourage grouping throughout the entire game, not just at level cap. Revamping all the older content to solo so people can use it is not as good as leaving it heroic and giving players worthwhile reasons to do the content. All the new soloquests in Everfrost with the legendary rewards... those could have been implemented in Permafrost and people would have done the quests. It is too troublesome to get a group together for one or two updates. Everfrost could have been done to lead up to heroic quests with heroic mobs with legendary/fabled rewards comparable to mastercrafted gear that eventually leads to Permafrost. And heroic quests shouldn't be like solo quests where you kill 10 of this, talk to npc, harvest 10 of that, talk to npc, kill 10 of those, talk to npc. More along the lines of kill 25 of these, kill this named mob, talk to npc at the end of the group to turn in all quests and get rewards.I think it's a shame yet another zone with good grouping potential is going to be wasted into non-challeging solo bore-fest when it could have heroic quests with good rewards leading up and into Solusek's Eye. And there are a couple of instances that could be worth hitting along the way if they were giving a little revamp to make the boss mobs do stuff other than get tanked and burned, and drop loot that won't instantly go to the vendor in favor of mastercrafted.</blockquote>Several flaws in the concept that I see:<ol><li>The game is getting older which means there are far more older characters at or near end game than there are at actual new players at the lower levels. Most younger players are alternates that wish to get to end game quickly.</li><li>They increased the XP rate specifically to allow players to quickly catch up to where they feel the player wants to be (End Game). Now you wish to slow down that XP by nerfing solo XP and rewards when most players, even when the game was on it's second expansion solo quite often?</li><li>The AA Cap was raised by 60 points and a new tree was added. That's the incentive to do as many dungeons and kill as many named while getting as much discovery AA as possible. That and of course the usual rewards. They even increased the Level 50+ master Rate Drops in the DoF Expansion.</li><li>Master-crafted gear is as popular as it is because many players veiw it as "temporary gear" that's easy to obtain. Since most players will spend very little time in each teir from T1 to T7 it does not make much sense to gear up in all legendary and fabled.</li><li>Crafters have a goal as well. They would like to get to level 80 and gain a crafting epic while earning some coin along the way and having some value in their products. Adventurers also make a good deal of coin off of harvesting rares. Making it easier to gain gear that is superior to Mastercrafted takes away from that.</li><li>Solo players need ways to upgrade beyond just trash drops just like group players and raiders. The changes in Everfrost allowed such an opportunity. The changes to come in Lavastorm will provide solo players and small groups a chance to gear up a bit in T8. If everyone enjoyed the grouping completely, the Lavastorm Revamp would be a pure group/raid revamp as there would be no need for solo quests.</li></ol>Your making the assumption that if we punish people for soloing, nerf their experience, lessen their drops and reduce their content they will convert to being group players. I can't speak for others, but as for our family, we would simply just leave the game. We accepted TSO for what it is because we enjoy crafting and look forward to being able to do more interesting things with better rewards in the Lavastorm Revamp. Were it not for that, TSO would have held little interest for our 5 accounts.

Rahatmattata

02-03-2009, 08:25 PM

Well, here's the thing. I want to be able to get groups. I don't have time to sit around all day waiting to join or start a group. Why are people solo questing instead of grouping? Because they would rather play solo than group? I don't think so.AA xp is better soloing.Money is often better soloing.Don't need good gear or abilities to kill solo mobs.Don't have to learn how to play with other classes.Don't have to deal with other people.Can start when you want, afk when you want, end when you want.So, what will it take to get people to group? That is what my OP is about. If people actually preferred to solo, there wouldn't be such an uproar during the RoK solo quest frenzy. As far as nerfing the adventure xp... well I was talking about solo quest AA xp. As far as taking away content, the Everfrost revamp I was using as an example of how it could have been done, not revamping it now... it's done they arent' gonna change it to heroic now.As far as the mastercrafted vs dropped items thing... we are just gonna have to disagree on that.

Gisallo

02-04-2009, 12:28 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, here's the thing. I want to be able to get groups. I don't have time to sit around all day waiting to join or start a group. Why are people solo questing instead of grouping? Because they would rather play solo than group? I don't think so.AA xp is better soloing.Money is often better soloing.Don't need good gear or abilities to kill solo mobs.Don't have to learn how to play with other classes.Don't have to deal with other people.Can start when you want, afk when you want, end when you want.So, what will it take to get people to group? That is what my OP is about. If people actually preferred to solo, there wouldn't be such an uproar during the RoK solo quest frenzy. As far as nerfing the adventure xp... well I was talking about solo quest AA xp. As far as taking away content, the Everfrost revamp I was using as an example of how it could have been done, not revamping it now... it's done they arent' gonna change it to heroic now.As far as the mastercrafted vs dropped items thing... we are just gonna have to disagree on that.</blockquote>Thing is that SOE is primarily interested in only creating end game content at this point. The majority of consistent players (log in every day) are either tier 8 adventurers or crafters. This being the case if new people come along in the game they are already facing a dirth of people to group with, even if EVERYONE wanted to group. SO the system as it is now, while being detrimental to lower tier grouping does imho enrich what (whether good or the bad) the majority of the game has become...end game tier 8.The issue with ROK was not too much solo. It was too much solo and end game. People, for the most part don't care about having the coolest tier 6 fabled or legendary item (heck much of them, expecially weapons are WORSE than the similar mastercrafted tier stuff now) they want to do this stuff at end game though so you make it easier for people to get there, make some easier end game instances so people can get their grouping skills down and then people can start doing what they want to do at that tier. Not saying this focus on end game is right or wrong but thats what the game is designed around now.

Brook

02-04-2009, 01:10 AM

Its a shame really things have gone this way.The original game was much better than what is being released now, the original art was better, the general progression was better, lore was better, items were better.Maybe its just nostalgia, or maybe even with things being harder and having to work for them the game was just plain more fun back then because you had to group to accomplish many things. If you had a nice item then you darn sure earned it.Not that the new game isnt fun now but something irks me about being shot out of a cannon like its Mario World.

Zarador

02-04-2009, 01:11 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, here's the thing. I want to be able to get groups. I don't have time to sit around all day waiting to join or start a group. Why are people solo questing instead of grouping? Because they would rather play solo than group? I don't think so.AA xp is better soloing.- Group players often also solo for the AA Points, it takes a lot to get 200 points and solo questing certainly won't get you there as fast as mixed play. Money is often better soloing. Sorry, but selling masters and loot rights as many group farmers do is far more profitable than simply soloing. Once again though, many group players also solo at least to get the AA's and the named drops off the overland mobs. Don't need good gear or abilities to kill solo mobs. - Since when? If I'm soloing, I don't have a group to back me up should I take on more than I can handle or a healer to keep me going. It's just me against the mobs. I'm not going to last long in yard trash gear with no tactics unless I'm killing green snakes all day long. Not much profit, advancement or loot in that scenerio. Most solo players push themselves to the limit testing how far they can take it. Don't have to learn how to play with other classes. To an extent your right, which can be a detriment if they decide to take on groups after 70 levels. On the otherhand, they also are not dependent on a full group on a regular basis and usally know their class quite well and can quickly learn to adapt. I see groups all the time moaning how they need a specific composition for areas that I see two box duo's handling without a sweat. Don't have to deal with other people. Yep, they seldom have to deal with accidental need looters, going to zones and then being told that area bites, lets go here instead or finding out that their healer was afk and their dead. Can start when you want, afk when you want, end when you want. (See above) They always know when their afk and don't depend on a parse to tell them that. They don't worry about getting half way through a zone and then having to quit because the healer faked a Link Dead in order to bail on a group to play their main or simply because the group was not performing well.So, what will it take to get people to group? That is what my OP is about. If people actually preferred to solo, there wouldn't be such an uproar during the RoK solo quest frenzy. As far as nerfing the adventure xp... well I was talking about solo quest AA xp. As far as taking away content, the Everfrost revamp I was using as an example of how it could have been done, not revamping it now... it's done they arent' gonna change it to heroic now.By that argument, then grouping was a failure since they are adding more solo content to the Lavastorm Revamp. RoK went in one direction, TSO in another, I like to think of it as "balance". It's hard to argue that grouping is the only way to play the game while arguing that people need much greater incentives to suffer through group content.As far as the mastercrafted vs dropped items thing... we are just gonna have to disagree on that.So the rewards of a group in a dungeon crawl for an hour or two should be greater than the ability of someone who Master Crafts in a profession that took hours to build up utilizing rare components that also took hours to procure? Now I can see the item off of a boss mob in a long dungeon crawl being better, but not off the average trash mobs in most non-challenging dungeons. </blockquote>

Krieg

02-04-2009, 01:17 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because they would rather play solo than group? I don't think so.</blockquote>I think so. Solo play is actually always high in the polls they do. Right up there with raiding. So they have to balance for both extremes. Not everyone has time for group content. And not everyone likes to group, especially PUGs. I'd rather solo than join a PUG. If I'm not with guildies I don't bother.

Rahatmattata

02-04-2009, 01:22 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thing is that SOE is primarily interested in only creating end game content at this point. The majority of consistent players (log in every day) are either tier 8 adventurers or crafters. This being the case if new people come along in the game they are already facing a dirth of people to group with, even if EVERYONE wanted to group. SO the system as it is now, while being detrimental to lower tier grouping does imho enrich what (whether good or the bad) the majority of the game has become...end game tier 8.SOE doesn't only focus on end-game. Look at the upcomming Lavastorm revamp. Everfrost revamp. Commonlands, Nek Forest, DFC revamp. Lower tier loot revamp. SOE is already spending the time making new quests and loot for Lavastorm (just for example), they could just as easily make some heroic quests from the temple leading into sol's eye with some nice rewards comparable to mastercrafted. And if they did some of the things in my OP, the quests would be worth doing for AA if nothing else. And if a player doesn't want to join a group to do the quests, he doesn't have to. There are plenty of solo quests and AA available elsewhere. And that wouldn't be taking away from solo content either, because at the moment all those mobs are heroic anyway.The issue with ROK was not too much solo. It was too much solo and end game. People, for the most part don't care about having the coolest tier 6 fabled or legendary item (heck much of them, expecially weapons are WORSE than the similar mastercrafted tier stuff now) they want to do this stuff at end game though so you make it easier for people to get there, make some easier end game instances so people can get their grouping skills down and then people can start doing what they want to do at that tier.This has nothing to do with the speed of getting to endgame. I'm trying to give reasons for people to group in lower tiers as opposed to solo. All the solo content would still be there for use. It's not like I've suggested to change solo quests to heroic. Aside from nerfing solo quest AA a bit (which really... 5% AA to hail NPC A and then hail NPC B standing right next to him is dumb), I haven't even mentioned any changes to solo gameplay. If I only group to level 60, I will have about 50-60 AA if I really stretch it and do all the heroic quests I can and kill all the named possible. I am forced to suppliment my grouping with a heavy dose of solo questing to have any sort of balanced adventure/achievement level ratio.Also, if a fabled weapon does drop, it should be better than mastercrafted. It just makes no sense the best gear in the game is crafted. I mean... coming across a piece of fabled gear is a little more rare than coming across an ebon cluster anyway. And most likely, it didn't take 6 players to click on that rock and get the ebon cluster.Not saying this focus on end game is right or wrong but thats what the game is designed around now.</blockquote>Anyway, to summarize... I think boosting named AA, heroic/epic quest AA, implementing heroic quest chains, and making loot that can compete and excede mastercrafted would get more people to group at lower tiers.I also feel solo quest AA should be nerfed, but that's just my opinion.

Rahatmattata

02-04-2009, 01:24 AM

<cite>Krieg@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solo play is actually always high in the polls they do. Right up there with raiding. So they have to balance for both extremes. Not everyone has time for group content. And not everyone likes to group, especially PUGs. I'd rather solo than join a PUG. If I'm not with guildies I don't bother.</blockquote>I haven't seen any solo/group/raid polls. And do most people solo because they like killing solo mobs by themselves, and doing short quick errands for NPCs, or do they solo because it's far more rewarding than grouping I wonder <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" />Even still, if most people in EQ2 like to solo, why not boost named AA, heroic/epic quest AA, implement more heroic quest chains, and have useful loot from heroic content... somewhere between mastercrafted and heritage quest quality? What does that hurt? Doesn't impact soloing. Only encourages grouping. Why all the resistance?

Rahatmattata

02-04-2009, 01:46 AM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Sorry, but selling masters and loot rights as many group farmers do is far more profitable than simply soloing.Talking about lower tiers here. Noone sells loot rights to DFC or Runnyeye drops. Low tier masters often sell for less than the rare to make the adept3 version.Don't need good gear or abilities to kill solo mobs. - Since when?Well, when I say soloing I'm generally referring to solo questing, not soloing heroic named in dungeons, etc. And no, you don't need good gear to solo quest. Certainly not legendary or mastercrafted with adept3s. It's like having a mythical epic and T8 fabled to do CoA. In t8 better gear is needed for solo questing, but I'm talking about lower tiers, mainly t3-t6.So, what will it take to get people to group? If people actually preferred to solo, there wouldn't be such an uproar during the RoK solo quest frenzy.By that argument, then grouping was a failure since they are adding more solo content to the Lavastorm Revamp. Not sure what you mean.RoK went in one direction, TSO in another, I like to think of it as "balance". I think of it as making up for a mistake. Similar to the "oops there's no AoE content, we forgot heritage quests, and deity skills end at 70" On that note, I wonder how long until we get a prismatic quest line in TSO? Level 80 guild cloaks and city merchant rewards? I digress...It's hard to argue that grouping is the only way to play the game while arguing that people need much greater incentives to suffer through group content.Not arguing grouping is the only way to play the game. I have to suffer through solo questing because A: everyone else is doing it leaving few players to group with and B: I'll be gimped on AA if I don't. It's completely viable to solo quest all the way to level 80 and be close on AAs. If I were to only group in dungeons (which is what my prefered playstyle is), I would be horribly gimped on AA. That's not balanced at all, and clearly favors solo questing as the way to level.As far as the mastercrafted vs dropped items thing... we are just gonna have to disagree on that.So the rewards of a group in a dungeon crawl for an hour or two should be greater than the ability of someone who Master Crafts in a profession that took hours to build up utilizing rare components that also took hours to procure? Now I can see the item off of a boss mob in a long dungeon crawl being better, but not off the average trash mobs in most non-challenging dungeons. In a word... yes. Those "rares" aren't all that rare. And he isn't "mastercrafting" anything. He's pushing the same buttons and doing the same things as if he was making a common combine. Some soloquests already provide rewards greater than mastercrafted. Sure the crafter may have spent time leveling up to be able to craft said item, but you conveniently forget the adventurer had to level up as well to kill the mob that dropped the loot. A rare mob that he probably had to find 5 others to help him get to the spawn, may takes hours to pop and kill, and may or may not even drop useful loot.</blockquote></blockquote>

rapier99

02-04-2009, 06:00 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, here's the thing. I want to be able to get groups. I don't have time to sit around all day waiting to join or start a group. Why are people solo questing instead of grouping? Because they would rather play solo than group? I don't think so.[...]Can start when you want, afk when you want, end when you want.</blockquote>Well, you write that you "don't have time to sit arround all day waiting" for a group. My wife and I (we usually duo) have a rather active real life, it might be that we come online, but 30 minutes later we suddenly have to leave. I'm sure you would not like this, a group has just formed and started playing, and tank and healer (in our case) decide to log out.Therefore yes, the second part of the quote is our main reason for mainly duoing - we want to start and stop whenever we want. But not because we don't want to bother with other people, it is more like we do not want to waste the time of others with our rather short-notice real life actions. And for us, almost whichever thing in RL has priority over a game.Therefore we are quite happy that it is very possible nowadays to duo a lot of content. We know that we will never have our mythicals, that we will never be fully fabled. But that is the price for our choise of playstyle, and we are happy to pay that price.

Lethe5683

02-04-2009, 10:58 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Many people would prefer to solo rather than group in the lower tiers because soloing is much more rewarding than grouping for the most part. IMO, this is pretty much backwards. Not everyone will agree I know, but I feel grouping should be more rewarding than soloing for various reasons beyond the scope of this post. So, here are a few suggestions for encouraging players to group in the lower levels of the game (sub 70).<ul><li>Nerf solo quest AA xp. I'm sure this won't be a popular suggestion, but hey whatever. Solo questing is too rewarding.</li><li>Inrease heroic quest AA xp.</li><li>Increase the AA amount on named mobs by quite a bit. This would include solo named mobs, but would give people more of an incentive to group for dungeons, instances, and overland heroic named.</li><li>Implement heroic quests for heroic content. Especially things like giants and gnolls in Thunderring Steppes. Kill 100 giants and get legendary legs; kill 100 gnolls and get legendary BP; kill 100 giants and 100 gnolls get fabled weapon. Just a generic example.</li><li>Revisist old instances such as the instances in Freeport sewers, Condemned Catacombs, Valley of the Rogue Magi, Firemist Gulley, etc. and make them worth doing by putting worthwhile loot there and having a questline sending you there.</li><li>Make legendary/fabled group drops comparable to mastercrafted gear. I believe a level 32 legendary drop should be equal, if not better than level 32 mastercrafted for example. This is rarely the case.</li><li>Get rid of the despawning epics mechanic. People don't bother making groups to kill these when they just de-pop before you can form up and pull.</li></ul>I think it's important to encourage grouping throughout the entire game, not just at level cap. Revamping all the older content to solo so people can use it is not as good as leaving it heroic and giving players worthwhile reasons to do the content. All the new soloquests in Everfrost with the legendary rewards... those could have been implemented in Permafrost and people would have done the quests. It is too troublesome to get a group together for one or two updates. Everfrost could have been done to lead up to heroic quests with heroic mobs with legendary/fabled rewards comparable to mastercrafted gear that eventually leads to Permafrost. And heroic quests shouldn't be like solo quests where you kill 10 of this, talk to npc, harvest 10 of that, talk to npc, kill 10 of those, talk to npc. More along the lines of kill 25 of these, kill this named mob, talk to npc at the end of the group to turn in all quests and get rewards.I think it's a shame yet another zone with good grouping potential is going to be wasted into non-challeging solo bore-fest when it could have heroic quests with good rewards leading up and into Solusek's Eye. And there are a couple of instances that could be worth hitting along the way if they were giving a little revamp to make the boss mobs do stuff other than get tanked and burned, and drop loot that won't instantly go to the vendor in favor of mastercrafted.</blockquote>I prefer grouping because it's usually more fun but it's pretty much impossible to find any groups now.

Lethe5683

02-04-2009, 10:59 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Many people would prefer to solo rather than group in the lower tiers because soloing is much more rewarding than grouping for the most part. IMO, this is pretty much backwards. Not everyone will agree I know, but I feel grouping should be more rewarding than soloing for various reasons beyond the scope of this post. So, here are a few suggestions for encouraging players to group in the lower levels of the game (sub 70).<ul><li>Nerf solo quest AA xp. I'm sure this won't be a popular suggestion, but hey whatever. Solo questing is too rewarding.</li><li>Inrease heroic quest AA xp.</li><li>Increase the AA amount on named mobs by quite a bit. This would include solo named mobs, but would give people more of an incentive to group for dungeons, instances, and overland heroic named.</li><li>Implement heroic quests for heroic content. Especially things like giants and gnolls in Thunderring Steppes. Kill 100 giants and get legendary legs; kill 100 gnolls and get legendary BP; kill 100 giants and 100 gnolls get fabled weapon. Just a generic example.</li><li>Revisist old instances such as the instances in Freeport sewers, Condemned Catacombs, Valley of the Rogue Magi, Firemist Gulley, etc. and make them worth doing by putting worthwhile loot there and having a questline sending you there.</li><li>Make legendary/fabled group drops comparable to mastercrafted gear. I believe a level 32 legendary drop should be equal, if not better than level 32 mastercrafted for example. This is rarely the case.</li><li>Get rid of the despawning epics mechanic. People don't bother making groups to kill these when they just de-pop before you can form up and pull.</li></ul>I think it's important to encourage grouping throughout the entire game, not just at level cap. Revamping all the older content to solo so people can use it is not as good as leaving it heroic and giving players worthwhile reasons to do the content. All the new soloquests in Everfrost with the legendary rewards... those could have been implemented in Permafrost and people would have done the quests. It is too troublesome to get a group together for one or two updates. Everfrost could have been done to lead up to heroic quests with heroic mobs with legendary/fabled rewards comparable to mastercrafted gear that eventually leads to Permafrost. And heroic quests shouldn't be like solo quests where you kill 10 of this, talk to npc, harvest 10 of that, talk to npc, kill 10 of those, talk to npc. More along the lines of kill 25 of these, kill this named mob, talk to npc at the end of the group to turn in all quests and get rewards.I think it's a shame yet another zone with good grouping potential is going to be wasted into non-challeging solo bore-fest when it could have heroic quests with good rewards leading up and into Solusek's Eye. And there are a couple of instances that could be worth hitting along the way if they were giving a little revamp to make the boss mobs do stuff other than get tanked and burned, and drop loot that won't instantly go to the vendor in favor of mastercrafted.</blockquote>Edit: double post.

Dasein

02-04-2009, 11:31 AM

People can level through the lower tiers very quickly, so there's a much more transient population, which means that the social bonds you have in the higher levels do not form because people aren't playing with the same people on a regular basis. Thus, the people you grouped with last weekend may be 10 levels higher by now, and have no interest in dong another RE or DFC run with you. Levelling speed in the mid-tiers is very uneven, due to play time, XP bonuses from level 80s and so on, so the population is not stable like it is at 70+.

Lethe5683

02-04-2009, 11:36 AM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>People can level through the lower tiers very quickly, so there's a much more transient population, which means that the social bonds you have in the higher levels do not form because people aren't playing with the same people on a regular basis. Thus, the people you grouped with last weekend may be 10 levels higher by now, and have no interest in dong another RE or DFC run with you. Levelling speed in the mid-tiers is very uneven, due to play time, XP bonuses from level 80s and so on, so the population is not stable like it is at 70+.</blockquote>The ironic thing is that I thought the exp bonus would help me to level my alts faster but instead it just made it so boring to play them that I hardly ever do since soloing quests that I have already done many times is mind-numbing... grouping is always a bit different.

standupwookie

02-04-2009, 02:21 PM

Not enough players to make ths a true grouping game. Remember, when EQ2 first came out it was a pretty hardcore grouping game. Soloing was not an option. Everyone complained and started quitting. So they totally revamped the game and made it solo first, group second. And that saved the game from becoming another Vanguard or AC2, though those games were seriously bugged.Here is what most people do. Start a character and solo quest until 80. That's it, easy as that. You will get a lot of AAs that way. If you plan you may be able to go into the old ^^^ dungeons while they are green and so the nameds. There is really no reason to lock your level anymore. Grey quests give great AA and it is all based on the quest level and your AA level. Mentoring down only effects any nameds you wish to green out.Occasionally you will see people LFG on old world content that no one ever does. Sol A or Permafrost. Basically the 1-70 dungeons are pretty much ghost towns. There are some nice quests in there to do, can do them while they are grey and still get good quest/AA EXP. If you are lucky to get a group, just mentor down and plow through the nameds.None of the loot is really needed. You can easily get to 70 with garbage quest gear or if you really want to get looty use master crafted stuff. But you fly by the levels so quick that it really does not matter. My wizard is still using level 30 equipment and AP Is and I have no problems soloing anything. Of course, once you get around level 65 or so then you can start thinking about end game equipment.The game is easy, have easy fun.

RafaelSmith

02-04-2009, 03:56 PM

The population is barely healthy enough at the top tier to support having to do everything via grouping.Ive seen friends try to level up and if they had to get a group for everything they would be screwed....and these are people that could just ask me to mentor. Can only imagine what it would be like for an actual new player without connections.EQ2 does not have anywhere near a healthy and full population at every tier.What little players there are at the lower tiers are primarily ALTS....their goal is to get thru the content ASAP not sit around and 'experience' the joy of LFG or taking part in a community that doesnt exist.

Rahatmattata

02-04-2009, 07:29 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ive seen friends try to level up and if they had to get a group for everything they would be screwed....and these are people that could just ask me to mentor. Can only imagine what it would be like for an actual new player without connections......What little players there are at the lower tiers are primarily ALTS....their goal is to get thru the content ASAP not sit around and 'experience' the joy of LFG or taking part in a community that doesnt exist.</blockquote>Which is why I think my suggestions would get more people to toss up the ole' /lfg flag. Aside from nerfing solo quest AA xp (which isn't going to happen, just something I personally feel should be done) there are no changes to solo questing. You can still go deliver your fish meat and spools of thread to Bilbo Baggins across the hill for 5% AA.But with more AA earned and better rewards from grouping, maybe more people would join groups. It's a matter of personal preference, but solo questing to 80 is fine. However I feel grouping should be the fastest and most rewarding way to level up. I guess SOE doesn't see it that way though. You can tell me people would rather solo and they just want to get to end game asap all you want. But I still don't see that as a reason to not increase the rewards for grouping.

Illmarr

02-04-2009, 08:51 PM

I'm not totally in agreement with the opinion solo quest Achievement should be nerfed, but I do fully support adding more of it to Heroic quests and adding more of those in lower tier content. The complete lack of a viable non-gimping mechanic to level via groups/heroic content is not fair and balanced at all. And the frustration of finishing a Heritage Quest or slaying Varsoon or Emperor Fyst and getting Legendary/Fabled rewards that are inferior to the Mastercrafted of the tier is sickening.And to the point raised that MC should be better...hogwash. The digging in the dirt comment, while harsh at the time has a degree of merit as well. There are spots in just about every tier to non-aggro harvest, and with a small amount of awareness of your surroundings one can harvest in hostile areas as well.

Rahatmattata

02-05-2009, 12:47 AM

<cite>Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>The complete lack of a viable non-gimping mechanic to level via groups/heroic content is not fair and balanced at all.</blockquote>Exactly. I could level from 1 to 80 never joining a group and only running solo errands (I can hardly even call them quests at this point), and be fine for AA by level 80. I won't have 200, but I'll be within reasonable striking distance.If I were to group exclusively from 14-80, I'd be horribly gimped on AA unless I level locked until I could get people to help me do almost all the group content in the game.

Noaani

02-05-2009, 01:23 AM

The question is, how do you add in a heroic level path that provides similar achievement XP to the solo path, without people suddenly hitting 200 AAs at level 65?Adding in another full path for players to gain achievement XP could ahve some fairly drastic ramifications...

Rahatmattata

02-05-2009, 05:35 AM

I don't have all the answers, I just try to make suggestions how they could encourage... no.... let people group and level up. It's really not my job to figure out how to get people to group, how to make a shared dungeon worth doing, how to balance tanks in all aspects of solo/group/raid/pvp, how to balance scout/mage dps. I can give suggestions but in the end it's up to devs to figure it out. None-the-less, to answer your question, if I was a dev here is how I'd balance it (go ahead people and get out your "I disagree!" speeches and essays):Put level caps on earning achievements, nerf solo quest AA, or provide a ton more AA in T8 grouping, raiding, and soloing. If they provided much more T8 AA in groups and raids, people wouldn't worry about leveling up in groups to fast and not earning enough AA if they knew they could make up for it in the endgame. If they nerfed soloquest AA people could still level up solo just as quickly, they'd just be a little more gimped on AA come endgame if they chose not to group at all. Which, if you just solo... honestly.... 200 AA isn't by any means close to "must have." I think people do solo quests for AA and do a group zone once or twice for AA. After they have earned the AA from the named in the group zone, there is no real reason to do the zone again. The loot is trash (besides masters), there is no more AA to be had, and they are simply getting experience points and no AA. Essentially gimping themselves. It would be like killing solo trash just for the experience points.I know a few players, myself included, that enjoy grouping and really don't care to do solo quests. Unfortunately they find themselves level 70 with about 60 to 70 AA. That leaves 10 levels to earn roughly 130 AA. The experience points are so fast when you are slaughtering trash in FG, RoV, RE, SoS, etc. and have all these various xp bonuses, by the time you even get to a named for a little AA bump you have already earned 20-50% xp.Currently this is the best and most efficient way to level: Buy adept3s and mastercrafted weapons, soloquest your *** off, lock xp to kill named in dungeons once, then go back to soloquesting for the next tier. When you have people only wanting to do a dungeon once for a quick named run and then never go back, it makes it pretty freakin hard to find groups.So, simple: nerf soloquest AA, boost heroic quest AA, make heroic mobs give a small amount of AA (only if adventure xp is enabled), implement heroic questlines like I've given examples of, do something to give reason to group. Again, if they even made it do-able to earn 100 - 120 AA in T8 via grouping, raiding, and soloing it wouldn't even be much of an issue in lower tiers. It's really not that people don't want to group. It's the fact that you horribly [Removed for Content] yourself if you do group with xp turned on, which is how many people prefer to level. In groups with xp on.I don't need a large pool of people /lfg to select 6 of the right classes to do a dungeon. I'll take 2 or 3 with decent gear and spell quality (like the kind that should be coming from heroic content) and we'll kill something. But noone wants to do that because they are better off killing solo content. This game isn't even about earning xp anymore, it's about earning AA. Why shouldn't it be opposite if it's not going to be balanced? Why shouldn't only soloquesting to 70 net you 60-70 AA, and grouping to 70 get you a good fat 110+?If people are able to gather 6 of each other together and tackle challenging content, SOE should make that rewarding and encourage them to do it again. Not essentially punish you with no rewards and make you wish you would have spent your time killing green snakes and other yard trash in Loping Plains with a 0.5% chance of death. I joined a T7 Deep Forge pug tonight. It was difficult with the setup and players we had. We wiped five or six times. Did I get AA? No. Did anything drop that was comparable or better than mastercrafted? No. I got some xp which widened my AA gap, a repair bill, and a little vender trash that will hopefully cover the arrows, poisons, food, drink, and repair bill.It's like being punished for grouping and rewarded for soloing. SOE discourages grouping in lower tiers by giving no incentive via AA and MC-comparable loot to do so. They only want to provide an easy path of least resistance to their glorious endgame content so people will finally have groups. That's fine if they want to do that, I don't care. But they could at least have the decency to make grouping to endgame just as viable, if not more-so as it should (IMO) be.I just want to append to this long-winded post, because I know people like to jump the gun, make assumptions, and get the wrong idea about my opinions and ideas. I am not anti-solo/casual whatever. I think it's healthy to have a viable solo path through the game for players that enjoy it. But, I do think it's also important to have a viable grouping path through the game. If you goto the trial forums, you see all the time posts asking where the groups are, the servers seem dead am I going to have to solo all the time. A vast amount of people play online games because they enjoy playing with, or against other players. The solo content in EQ2 is great. There isn't a heavy lower level population to group with. But that doesn't make it right for the devs to pigeon-hole players into soloing or disabling xp if they want to group and still have a reasonable amount of AA. It's simply counterproductive to group too much while leveling up because you will pay for it later, and that is wrong.

Zarador

02-05-2009, 01:02 PM

EverQuest - So people that enjoy questing should be penalized and gimped because doing the same dungeon 20 times with a group is where it's at?Yes, another post that explains how the solo players should be content with scraps to teach them a lesson about why they should enjoy grouping. Give them less AA experience for questing in a game designed around quests. Let them have gear that makes solo/duo play tougher and by all means, they should have no incentive to continue playing the game until they learn to group with others.So you do scripted encounters with content that is quite easy once you know the script and have a group behind you and somehow that equates to a great effort on your part? Maybe it was difficult for the first few groups that actually did it first, but beyond that, it's just follow the script and loot the chest. You love grouping, bravo for you! Many people also enjoy small group, duo and solo play. There is no reason to change the rewards of the game to entice one side or discourage another. You choose your play style and the game has a pre-determined reward for that play style.<ul><li>I don't get fabled drops off of solo quests, I don't get Masters of solo quests, I do however get nice experience and some AA off of my play style. That's my reward for what I do, not a penalty.</li><li>You get less AA if you choose to simply grind through the game and avoid questing. That means you got rewarded for exactly what you put the effort into.</li><li>I made crafters, they make master crafted gear. Some have their crafting epics, all their crafting gear from the Mara Instances, all the faction recipes, harvesting gear that increases my speed and chances for a rare. That, however as some have said, amounts to pushing buttons and digging safely in the dirt. I'm sure lots of level 15 adventurers easily traverse through T-8 zones all the time with no problem at all to complete a quest. Yet we spend hopurs upon hours earning faction and doing quests to make those characters the best crafters they can be. Yet, you feel that Master Crafted gear should not be attractive because it's easy to make?</li><li>You go to a dungeon and run it time after time knowing what lies ahead of you. You do instances that have scripts that are fully predictable. Yet, somehow that button pushing is a "skill" that should have great rewards at the end. What about Void Shard Armor? Do the same thing over and over and over again, till it's routine, for fabled rewards? </li></ul>The atrractive part of this game is that you can choose your path of advancement and enjoy playing it your way. The sad thing is, some people feel their way is the only way and those that don't agree should have some penalty placed on that play style to encourage them to think your way.Your concept on how to make people want to group is akin to the old style TV dinners. Throw in a brownie at the end and the kid will eat the green beans. Does that mean they enjoy the green beans, or that they enjoy the brownie so much that their willing to eat the green beans? The Veggie fries that they pushed on the kids turned out to be a huge failure because breaded covered fried vegetable mush is just that and not the french fries that the kids wanted to really eat. If you enjoy the play style of grouping, then that is the reward. If you have to punish one side and bribe another, then your just doing it for the rewards and not to enjoy the game. Make Solo/Duo play unattractive and many will leave, not group.

Rahatmattata

02-05-2009, 03:21 PM

It sounds as if you either didn't read the posts or have low reading comprehension.Btw, if the name Everquest has some significant meaning to you about gameplay, why can't I Everquest my way through heroic content? They should name it Soloquest 2 by that argument.

Kizee

02-05-2009, 03:48 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li>I don't get fabled drops off of solo quests, I don't get Masters of solo quests, I do however get nice experience and some AA off of my play style. That's my reward for what I do, not a penalty.</li></ul></blockquote>You don't? Are you sure about that?I have gotten both soloing.

RafaelSmith

02-05-2009, 04:12 PM

There is plenty of group content and quests for groups all the way from t1-t8. If someone that likes to group can find 5 others that like to group.......then go group. Nobody is forcing you to solo.There is also plenty of stuff for people solo 1-80 if they want.I just dont see what the problem is currently.I mean content wise T1 is no different than T8....full of solo quest lines, group quests, overland zones and instances.The only difference is there is actually a healthy population for T8.....well at least on most servers =P

Rahatmattata

02-05-2009, 05:18 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>If someone that likes to group can find 5 others that like to group.......then go group. Nobody is forcing you to solo.I just dont see what the problem is currently.</blockquote>I guess you don't understand the whole earning AA thing then. Regardless, nothing in your post shows me any reason why they shouldn't implement more heroic quests, ways to earn AA, and decent loot in heroic content. Noone is forcing you to group, so why care?

RafaelSmith

02-05-2009, 05:42 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>If someone that likes to group can find 5 others that like to group.......then go group. Nobody is forcing you to solo.I just dont see what the problem is currently.</blockquote>I guess you don't understand the whole earning AA thing then. Regardless, nothing in your post shows me any reason why they shouldn't implement more heroic quests, ways to earn AA, and decent loot in heroic content. Noone is forcing you to group, so why care?</blockquote>Oh really? Lets see while I do not have 200AAS......I have 166, can't say exactly......but i would say I soloed about 10% of my playtime time from 1-80.

Rahatmattata

02-05-2009, 06:04 PM

So, you obviously like to group. Then why do you seem to be against encouraging players to group in lower tiers? Or is it that you don't think giving more opportunity for AA and good loot will encourage people to group?

Zarador

02-05-2009, 06:34 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>It sounds as if you either didn't read the posts or have low reading comprehension.Btw, if the name Everquest has some significant meaning to you about gameplay, why can't I Everquest my way through heroic content? They should name it Soloquest 2 by that argument.</blockquote>Perhaps maybe you have failed to comprehend your own suggestions, allow me to recap them for you, with your own statements quoted:<ul><li>Nerf solo quest AA xp. I'm sure this won't be a popular suggestion, but hey whatever. Solo questing is too rewarding.</li><li>Revamping all the older content to solo so people can use it is not as good as leaving it heroic and giving players worthwhile reasons to do the content. All the new soloquests in Everfrost with the legendary rewards... those could have been implemented in Permafrost and people would have done the quests.</li><li>I think it's a shame yet another zone with good grouping potential is going to be wasted into non-challeging solo bore-fest when it could have heroic quests with good rewards leading up and into Solusek's Eye.</li><li>Don't need good gear or abilities to kill solo mobs.</li><li>I also feel solo quest AA should be nerfed, but that's just my opinion.</li><li>Aside from nerfing solo quest AA xp (which isn't going to happen, just something I personally feel should be done) there are no changes to solo questing. You can still go deliver your fish meat and spools of thread to Bilbo Baggins across the hill for 5% AA.</li><li>Put level caps on earning achievements, nerf solo quest AA</li><li>If they nerfed soloquest AA people could still level up solo just as quickly, they'd just be a little more gimped on AA come endgame if they chose not to group at all.</li><li>I just want to append to this long-winded post, because I know people like to jump the gun, make assumptions, and get the wrong idea about my opinions and ideas. I am not anti-solo/casual whatever.</li></ul>How could anyone get the wrong ideas or not comprehend the meaning of your posts? You suggest time after time that the way to "entice" people to group is to nerf their ability to gain AA, gear and decent loot if they refuse to group.People that enjoy grouping look for groups. If enough people were looking for groups, then this subject would not come up at all; at least not about grouping in the lower teirs. The real issue is the speed of leveling and ease of leveling that the general population demanded. If your going to be breezing through a teir in a week or less, why bother gearing up for it. The problem of course with that is that you wind up leveling far faster than your gaining AA experience. That's the real problem and it's not caused by soloing, it's caused by people wishing to get to end game as fast as possible.Frankly, now that the AA cap has been raised to 200, I would venture to say that more than a few group oriented players are glad that they can quickly earn some additional AA with the solo quests. In fact, I know of quite a few players on our server that rip through that lower content in groups with their friends just to gain the AA and still have some fun together.

Rahatmattata

02-05-2009, 08:23 PM

"You suggest time after time that the way to "entice" people to group is to nerf their ability to gain AA, gear and decent loot if they refuse to group."So it's the reading comprehension that fails you. I never, ever suggested nerfing the ability get gear and loot from solo quests. You are obviously focused on nerfing soloquest AA as the whole theme of your post. So you disagree with that. Fine. Difference of opinion. But giving people a reason to group won't hurt your soloquesting. You should be able to earn as much AA grouping, if not more, as you can soloing.

RafaelSmith

02-06-2009, 12:09 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, you obviously like to group. Then why do you seem to be against encouraging players to group in lower tiers? Or is it that you don't think giving more opportunity for AA and good loot will encourage people to group?</blockquote>No my point is that there is already plenty of ways to level and AA via groupingv from 1-80. If you wanna add more thats fine but no need to do any sort of nerfs or changes to solo XP or AA. Not needed.

Zarador

02-06-2009, 12:37 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, you obviously like to group. Then why do you seem to be against encouraging players to group in lower tiers? Or is it that you don't think giving more opportunity for AA and good loot will encourage people to group?</blockquote>No my point is that there is already plenty of ways to level and AA via groupingv from 1-80. If you wanna add more thats fine but no need to do any sort of nerfs or changes to solo XP or AA. Not needed.</blockquote>That's been my point. If you really want to add to the Group/Raid experience, most players would be for that, but not while taking away from or nerfing another play style. The OP has been making assumptions that people solo/duo not because they enjoy what they are doing, but because they simply want the benefits and rewards which the OP deems to be greater. My contention as mainly a solo/duo player is that I truly enjoy playing the way that I play and should not be nerfed because of that choice. The majority of players have some goal or carrot on the stick to look forward to, yet the OP explains that those that solo should not object to having those rewards reduced or diminished since their play style in the OP's word require no exceptional ability or need to be geared even in MC gear with MC spells/abilities.Since everything in the game is preety much mashing buttons and scripted events, then either everyone that reacts to the reactions correctly is using some skills and abilities, or no one is. Groups and Raids are nothing more than having to depend on others to react properly all at the same time. That, in and of itself is a skill, without a doubt, but not the epic endevour that so many make it out to be. The bottom line is simple. If you feel something is lacking in your realm of play style, then by all means address that. Don't however address it with suggestions that would detract from someone elses play style.

Rahatmattata

02-06-2009, 03:28 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>The majority of players have some goal or carrot on the stick to look forward to, yet the OP explains that those that solo should not object to having those rewards reduced or diminished since their play style in the OP's word require no exceptional ability or need to be geared even in MC gear with MC spells/abilities.Lies. I never said "you should not disagree with me." And it sounds like you are mentioning gear and actual rewards (not AA) which I've never talked about. Show me where I typed anything along the lines of solo quested loot should be nerfed. And yes, I do feel solo quested AA should be significantly nerfed. Sorry if you don't agree but we don't have to agree so that's great. </blockquote>

Nuhus

02-06-2009, 04:01 PM

As a player that's been around since release, it's certainly interesting to see how much things have changed since the old days. I remember sitting out in CL trying to get into a fallen gate group, hopefully one that wouldn't spend most of the time trying to get back our shards.The game has changed quite a bit. It did get more difficult to get those lower level groups going, and if you couldn't you were kind of stuck as there was nothing but heroic content. Really it's something that is difficult to balance, especially as most of the population gets up into the higher tiers. I don't think theres a perfect answer. Since people will generally take the path of the least resistance, I think it's hard to promote a certain playstyle without more or less forcing people into it. Which I don't think is a good answer.

Gisallo

02-07-2009, 08:35 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thing is that SOE is primarily interested in only creating end game content at this point. The majority of consistent players (log in every day) are either tier 8 adventurers or crafters. This being the case if new people come along in the game they are already facing a dirth of people to group with, even if EVERYONE wanted to group. SO the system as it is now, while being detrimental to lower tier grouping does imho enrich what (whether good or the bad) the majority of the game has become...end game tier 8.SOE doesn't only focus on end-game. Look at the upcomming Lavastorm revamp. Everfrost revamp. Commonlands, Nek Forest, DFC revamp. Lower tier loot revamp. SOE is already spending the time making new quests and loot for Lavastorm (just for example), they could just as easily make some heroic quests from the temple leading into sol's eye with some nice rewards comparable to mastercrafted. And if they did some of the things in my OP, the quests would be worth doing for AA if nothing else. And if a player doesn't want to join a group to do the quests, he doesn't have to. There are plenty of solo quests and AA available elsewhere. And that wouldn't be taking away from solo content either, because at the moment all those mobs are heroic anyway.The issue with ROK was not too much solo. It was too much solo and end game. People, for the most part don't care about having the coolest tier 6 fabled or legendary item (heck much of them, expecially weapons are WORSE than the similar mastercrafted tier stuff now) they want to do this stuff at end game though so you make it easier for people to get there, make some easier end game instances so people can get their grouping skills down and then people can start doing what they want to do at that tier.This has nothing to do with the speed of getting to endgame. I'm trying to give reasons for people to group in lower tiers as opposed to solo. All the solo content would still be there for use. It's not like I've suggested to change solo quests to heroic. Aside from nerfing solo quest AA a bit (which really... 5% AA to hail NPC A and then hail NPC B standing right next to him is dumb), I haven't even mentioned any changes to solo gameplay. If I only group to level 60, I will have about 50-60 AA if I really stretch it and do all the heroic quests I can and kill all the named possible. I am forced to suppliment my grouping with a heavy dose of solo questing to have any sort of balanced adventure/achievement level ratio.Also, if a fabled weapon does drop, it should be better than mastercrafted. It just makes no sense the best gear in the game is crafted. I mean... coming across a piece of fabled gear is a little more rare than coming across an ebon cluster anyway. And most likely, it didn't take 6 players to click on that rock and get the ebon cluster.Not saying this focus on end game is right or wrong but thats what the game is designed around now.</blockquote>Anyway, to summarize... I think boosting named AA, heroic/epic quest AA, implementing heroic quest chains, and making loot that can compete and excede mastercrafted would get more people to group at lower tiers.I also feel solo quest AA should be nerfed, but that's just my opinio</blockquote>Um I didn't say "ONLY" I said "PRIMARILY" the everfrost revamp was so that a zone which was group centric became solo centric with some of the highest AA exp results and gear for completeing soloable quests. The whole concept of this design is to get classes to advance faster. The same thing is being done with Lavastorm but to show you its still with the intent of getting people to end game a lot of the new content is about tier 8 solo. The fact they are redesigning these two areas I think simply shows these changes are means to an end. More zones in certain tiers means more quests. More quests means more xp, more exp means a quicker road to the next tier.Lets look at TSO. Tier 8 group content. CNow the changes earlier tiers? Make them more easily soloable, in turn you get to tier 8 quicker which is where they are spending the bulk of their time developing. Why was RoK heavy in solo content? To make it easy for people to hit the level cap. TSO, the follow up without a level cap is about grouping at that level cap. When they raise the cap to 90 we will likely see another solo intensive expansion, followed by a group intensive one. THey want to keep everyone happy. Most people play this game to advance in level at something (crafting, adventuring whatever). If you make the solo game eaiser to advance then you amke it so everyone from the hardcore raider to the soloer can ge to end game and have that same sense of accomplishment. The gear then becomes the determining factor so the raider can still say his arguably harder path in the game provides a higher pay off. Onto the gear. I do agree with you about the gear should be better than master crafted BUT the gear was designed using older rule sets and imho by a past item dev who really didn't understand the game mechanics. Fyreflyte had his handsful trying to level out drop from the rest of the world to match Gorowyn. Now he is busy fixing itemization for TSO and making new items for Lavastorm. Prior tier fabled and legendary are not going to get worked on anytime soon because of all of the above "get em to end game as fast as possible" means people will outgrow the gear faster and thus don't want to be bothered getting slowed down running an instance for gear when they could be questing for XP.

Egonius

02-08-2009, 01:25 PM

If i'm not grouped i have LFG on, and i'm solo'ing, been playing since launch so any pre-65 item i get feels pointless because i know it will be replaced. I love grouping, and i enjoy being able to accomplish things while solo. When i want to solo only, i play a single player game. The best way at the moment that i can see for people to be able to find groups easier, is a little thing called "Server Merge".

Isoloki

02-08-2009, 02:33 PM

What I don't get is this arguement of not getting enough AA while grouping.You can get just as much if not more AA while grouping. I know your saying no you can't. But I assure you, you can. I'll give you how I and my friends do it. We group. That easy.See the thing here is there is nothing saying you can not group to do solo quests. You will get more quests done faster than someone doing them solo, and you can still do that dungeon (Heroic Content). This way you still get all your AA you want. All the loot from the dungeons, and the best part is you get to do it with a group.Wow, that was tough. No need to nerf AA for solo play. You will level faster. get more drops cause you are doing more content. Have more fun cause you are grouped.(That is what is fun for you)It does make it easier if your group is made up of friends, so you can do all the content together, getting the same quests etc. But it can be done with pugs.Now I do know it is hard at times to find groups at the lower tiers. but it is not impossible. Especially once you find a group. ask them if they would like to make it a recurring thing. You mind find that alot of people would be glad to do it.Have a nice day

Rahatmattata

02-08-2009, 02:38 PM

Talking about doing heroic content. Grouping to do solo quests is pointless and boring. Also, it's not likely everyone is at the same point in the solo quest chains. Also, some solo quests only update 1 person per spawn/update. Also, it's completely non challenging and 6 people whacking on a solo mob would be hilarious.

Isoloki

02-08-2009, 03:01 PM

<cite>ahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Talking about doing heroic content. Grouping to do solo quests is pointless and boring. Also, it's not likely everyone is at the same point in the solo quest chains. Also, some solo quests only update 1 person per spawn/update. Also, it's completely non challenging and 6 people whacking on a solo mob would be hilarious.</blockquote>Why would 6 people hit on 1 single mob? With 6 people doing solo quests and you need say 10 crab meats. you can all grab crabs and get all 10 in one battle. Wow took 45 seconds to finish that quest.Is it easier? No challenge? yeah it is for the most part. But the idea is to maximize your time and get to the dungeon while getting the AA you want. So instead of grinding for 2 hours doing 15 quests. you can get them done in about 20 minutes. then go hit a dungeon for a couple of hours for the challenging content.One thing it is not is pointless. Your crying cause you think you can't get enough AA from grouping. I'm showing you how you can.As for not everyone is on the same quest chain. I never said getting a pug ont he same page is easy. But if you make friends with them. you can start on the same chain in the next zone that you have not been in. But in the meantime you can help each other out with the ones they have. They get done faster in groups, and then you can get to the same chain or that dungeon you want to do.While I enjoy grouping to have some laughs and spend time with my friends.I don't find most dungeons challenging anyways, unless I'm soloing them or duoing them. But that is my opinion.

Rahatmattata

02-08-2009, 04:23 PM

<cite>Isoloki@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your crying cause you think you can't get enough AA from grouping.No, this thread is about AA in heroic content. If you read the OP you can see where I used the term "herioc content" several times. I specifically did this because I knew someone would say, "Well you can just group up and do solo quests." The thread isn't about encouraging players to group and do solo content. It's about encouraging players to group and do heroic content. Slight difference.</blockquote>

Isoloki

02-08-2009, 05:12 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Isoloki@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your crying cause you think you can't get enough AA from grouping.No, this thread is about AA in heroic content. If you read the OP you can see where I used the term "herioc content" several times. I specifically did this because I knew someone would say, "Well you can just group up and do solo quests." The thread isn't about encouraging players to group and do solo content. It's about encouraging players to group and do heroic content. Slight difference.</blockquote></blockquote>No I read your op, and understood what you wanted. You want forced grouping. You try to make it look like it would be a choice. But you didn't do a very good job at it.The thing is when this game first came out it was basically forced grouping with a little solo content. Well the population fell fast because of it. (my opinion) So the Dev's changed it to a lot of solo content. It seems to work fine for the majority of the player base.For those that feel they must group all the time like yourself. (There is nothing wrong with that by the way) It may seem like you get short changed on things. I was just pointing out the options you have. I personnally don't like being forced to group or having to choose specific classes to group with like what is happening in TSO right now.But there is a Heroic timeline on Wiki.I hope it helps you somehow.<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Heroic_Timelines" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:...eroic_Timelines</a>While I agree there should be more heroic quest lines than what they have. You get what they give you and either enjoy it. or not. Your choice. ( I would welcome the challenge of soloing/duoing them)My previous statement is still true. Grouping solo content for AA is plausable and should be thought about for your play style.

Rahatmattata

02-09-2009, 06:33 AM

<cite>Isoloki@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>No I read your op, and understood what you wanted. You want forced grouping.No you don't understand. Which part of creating more heroic quests, boosting heroic AA, implementing better gear and item rewards for heroic content forces grouping? All it does is give more of a reason to group. Solo questing remains the same. Even if soloquest AA was nerfed (which it won't be) how would that force people to group? Because they get a little less AA then the ridiculous amount that is rewarded now?But I guess it's all good that I'm forced to either lock xp or do solo quests to level up with AA. Players that only do solo quests don't have to lock xp or join a group to earn a good amount of AA. I'm well aware I can group up to run a stack of fish from KP docks to Teren's Grasp, but this post is about encouraging players to do heroic content, not solo content. This distinction seems to boggle your mind. I'm tired of repeating the same thing for people that try to put words in my mouth and can't grasp simple concepts. So one last time: I think it should be easier to find groups in lower tiers. I think boosting AA xp on named mobs, heroic quests, implementing more heroic quest lines, and offering better item rewards for doing heroic content would encourage more players to group.Solo quests are too rewarding as well, but that's really another topic about balancing the rewards for solo > group > raid. Sorry, but it's dumb to do a 15 minute solo quest in Everfrost for a t5 charm that will be used until well in the 70s, but kill krathuk with a full raid of level 50s and get garbage that doesn't even compare to level 42 mastercrafted which is replace at level 52. It's completely stupid.</blockquote>

Gwynet

02-10-2009, 10:55 AM

I don't think you guy realize that you can powerlevel a character from 1 to 50 in less than 10 hours by just running instances and mentoring. At least the AA is low that way so it prevents most people from doing it. If you gave more AA for heroic stuff, everyone would just powerlevel their way through.How is that for a grouping insensitive?I also wanted to comment on something someone said in the thread - about how solo play is always one of the top results in polls. Personally, I like grouping best, but I want more solo content so I have something to do while I'm looking for a group, which is about 90% of the time when I am on now. So yes, I always vote for more solo content, because a group-focused game sucks when you can't find groups.

Vanderlay

02-10-2009, 12:54 PM

After reading all of this I just want to comment that AA exp in groups is not as good as soloing. As an example, we cleared wing 1 of VP the other night, and I had never been there before. After killing Druushk I received 4% AA for killing a named. 4%!!! That is just not right. I can go out and do a solo quest in JW and gain 10% just by talking to NPC A and telling NPC B that he's all set...or whatever the quest might be. Point is, there were 24 people all doing their part in a raid taking down the hardest mob in wing 1 of VP, and I got a crappy 4% AA for doing it. Hell my loc dings for AA were worth that much or more. They really need to look at the difficulty level of something a little bit more when passing out AA.

Zarador

02-10-2009, 08:03 PM

<cite>Vanderlay wrote:</cite><blockquote>After reading all of this I just want to comment that AA exp in groups is not as good as soloing. As an example, we cleared wing 1 of VP the other night, and I had never been there before. After killing Druushk I received 4% AA for killing a named. 4%!!! That is just not right. I can go out and do a solo quest in JW and gain 10% just by talking to NPC A and telling NPC B that he's all set...or whatever the quest might be. Point is, there were 24 people all doing their part in a raid taking down the hardest mob in wing 1 of VP, and I got a crappy 4% AA for doing it. Hell my loc dings for AA were worth that much or more. They really need to look at the difficulty level of something a little bit more when passing out AA.</blockquote>I'm sorry, I have to agree with you, I got cheated out of the fabled drops when I turned in my quest in JW, they really need to fix that quest so the fabled drops off the delivery.Wait, was that the point of your post? Were you guys clearing VP for AA only? Is that why you took 24 people there in a difficult raid? Somehow, I always got the impression that people did raids primarily for the drops, guess I learned something new.You have a point though, drop that 10% AA for a solo turn in, give us the 4% instead with some nice VP drops for a reward, I would be quite content with that. Rewards really need to be in line with the effort afterall.

JackBurtonBTLC

02-10-2009, 08:16 PM

I totally disagree with the OP, for many reasons, see my post about "returning to the game" as to why.

Palathas

02-10-2009, 10:11 PM

"...in the lower tiers because soloing is much more rewarding than grouping for the most part."I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. I always found that the vast majority of quest rewards are treasured items which are vendor trash or only good for transmuting. I always found XP and AA XP to be the same, that's if you do quests whether they be solo or Heroic. The only time I really fell behind is when I was part of groups that grind Heoric instances for items. It wasn't until around RoK and TSO areas that I started to see Legendary quest rewards and even then a lot of them are pretty ordinary, well for a Dirge they are. I have not encounted any Fabled gear at all as a solo/duo. We have got the very rarely dropped Exquisite chest but they've never had anything we could use. We only encounted about half a dozen of them. I don't have a problem with this as I always thought the good gear like Fabled stuff was rewarded to groups or raids to encourage grouping...With my Dirge I mostly Duo'd through to 80 and am now grouping a fair bit to get Void Shards and find generally the rewards, especially items, coin and XP is vastly superior. I have found that after doing the initial quests and the areas for the first time the AA XP has dropped off to only converting the Kill XP to AA XP which is pretty slow.Maybe they could allow the Named mobs or quests in Heroic instances to continue to give AA XP after the initial kill/completion. That would solve a few issues people are having with AA XP and wouldn't require them to go back to grey zones to do a heap of grey quests and make life difficult for the lower level characters. It would also encourage people to group to get their AP up, especially those of us that were around level 45 when Achievement Points were introduced.

Gisallo

02-10-2009, 10:41 PM

<cite>Vanderlay wrote:</cite><blockquote>After reading all of this I just want to comment that AA exp in groups is not as good as soloing. As an example, we cleared wing 1 of VP the other night, and I had never been there before. After killing Druushk I received 4% AA for killing a named. 4%!!! That is just not right. I can go out and do a solo quest in JW and gain 10% just by talking to NPC A and telling NPC B that he's all set...or whatever the quest might be. Point is, there were 24 people all doing their part in a raid taking down the hardest mob in wing 1 of VP, and I got a crappy 4% AA for doing it. Hell my loc dings for AA were worth that much or more. They really need to look at the difficulty level of something a little bit more when passing out AA.</blockquote> well xp has ALWAYS been bad for raids. Why? Because in math for xp is a calculation that reduces the xp based on the number of people present. Where doing groups pays off in XP is when you are doing instances and killing nameds with quests. First you usually have more nameds than in raid zones, second you get the quest XP. The pay off for the raid zone is the gear, not the XP.

Rahatmattata

02-11-2009, 12:56 AM

<cite>Wardari@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>"...in the lower tiers because soloing is much more rewarding than grouping for the most part."I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. I always found that the vast majority of quest rewards are treasured items which are vendor trash or only good for transmuting.For the most part both items you will get solo questing and grouping are worse than mastercrafted and more or less vendor garbage. But there are some solo quest rewards that are good well into T8. Such as the cloaks from everfrost, charms from everfrost, charms from butcherblock (level 35ish btw). Even the cloak from TD is better than most cloaks until T5 for tanking. The heritage quest rewards which require grouping are good, but all of them can be replaced by the next tier mastercrafted.I always found XP and AA XP to be the same, that's if you do quests whether they be solo or Heroic. The only time I really fell behind is when I was part of groups that grind Heoric instances for items.I find there's a lot fewer heroic quests and many require killing a lot of trash which get's you a lot of xp. For example in Crushbone Keep there are a couple quests that have you running to different parts of the dungeon. That's a whole lot of trash killing and therefore xp just to get quest updates. Fallen Gate, RoV, Runnyeye... all similar plow a lot of trash and get a lot of xp to get your quest updates. I did a solo quest last night that required me to take a balloon from the dropship landing zone in Moores to the swamp and hail a NPC and got about 7% AA.It wasn't until around RoK and TSO areas that I started to see Legendary quest rewards and even then a lot of them are pretty ordinary, well for a Dirge they are. I have not encounted any Fabled gear at all as a solo/duo.Thuuga quest (fabled). Hunter of the wastes rewards. There's a level 74 ring with 4def and 4parry I used all through RoK from a solo quest in Fens or something. Trooper scale boots which drop off solo mobs.With my Dirge I mostly Duo'd through to 80 and am now grouping a fair bit to get Void Shards and find generally the rewards, especially items, coin and XP is vastly superior. I have found that after doing the initial quests and the areas for the first time the AA XP has dropped off to only converting the Kill XP to AA XP which is pretty slow.Yea, it's not hard to find groups in T8 and yes grouping in T8 is rewarding, although you still have to do the solo quests for AA. But this is more about making it easier to find groups in lower tiers.Maybe they could allow the Named mobs or quests in Heroic instances to continue to give AA XP after the initial kill/completion. That would solve a few issues people are having with AA XP and wouldn't require them to go back to grey zones to do a heap of grey quests and make life difficult for the lower level characters. It would also encourage people to group to get their AP up, especially those of us that were around level 45 when Achievement Points were introduced.I think it would be good if heroic mobs gave some AA when killed. It would have to be balanced, but if you get like a fraction of a percent AA xp for every heroic mob you kill, in addition to other proposed changes, players wouldn't have to worry so much about grouping and leveling up gimping their AA.</blockquote>

Zarador

02-11-2009, 02:20 AM

<cite>Wardari@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe they could allow the Named mobs or quests in Heroic instances to continue to give AA XP after the initial kill/completion. That would solve a few issues people are having with AA XP and wouldn't require them to go back to grey zones to do a heap of grey quests and make life difficult for the lower level characters. It would also encourage people to group to get their AP up, especially those of us that were around level 45 when Achievement Points were introduced.</blockquote>While I agree with much of your post, this is the one part that I could not agree with. If you were to allow that, then you would also have to allow the solo quests to continue to supply AA as well in all fairness. Lets face it, AA Grinding is dull for the most part no matter what play style you choose. (Even if you delve in all of the spheres).I can however sympathise with those who made characters in the earlier days. As a solo/duo player I have several characters that I made around launch and I must admit seeing lower AA on my level 57 than I have on my level 25 is discouraging to say the least. Wish they had some sort of incentive idea to get those old toons out and rolling again rather than the easier (yet dull) solution of re-rolling.Honestly, reading through the posts, the real problem is not Solo verses Group verses Raiders. It's that the game propels you at a faster pace while your having a blast and not realizing that your moving ahead so fast that your falling way behind.Face it, the "Group" player looks at RoK and cringes. Look at all that solo content, look at the rewards for quests you can do alone, I'm hosed. The Solo/Duo player looks at TSO and sighs, look at all that group content, I'm about to fall way behind again. We can continue to argue as to how the game *should* be played, but the abundance of varried content demonstrates there is no right or wrong way. Obviously, both group players and solo players are feeling a little behind the eight ball with the new leveling curve. Get there fast; catch up slow.

Rahatmattata

02-11-2009, 04:41 AM

It really makes no sense to boost combat xp exponentially while AA xp remains the same. SOE if you really want to launch players to endgame at ridiculous speed, you should really adjust AA xp to keep pace. Level cap isn't just 80... until you are 80/200 you aren't capped. I guess right now it's a choice though. Either you get to 80 super fast and be [Removed for Content], or you go out of your way to not level up and farm AA.I have a 14 zerker alt I just started with 20AA. Been playing him for about 5 days just farming AA doing quests and killing every named mob I can find.

Zarador

02-11-2009, 07:38 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>It really makes no sense to boost combat xp exponentially while AA xp remains the same. SOE if you really want to launch players to endgame at ridiculous speed, you should really adjust AA xp to keep pace. Level cap isn't just 80... until you are 80/200 you aren't capped. I guess right now it's a choice though. Either you get to 80 super fast and be [Removed for Content], or you go out of your way to not level up and farm AA.I have a 14 zerker alt I just started with 20AA. Been playing him for about 5 days just farming AA doing quests and killing every named mob I can find.</blockquote>I agree with you, however I'm not all that positive that their intention is to get everyone "capped" as fast as possible. Think about this just for a moment.<ul><li>You create an online world that requires a great deal of content to keep players active in. Content costs $$$ to develop. Unused content essentially costs money to maintain even from a zone server aspect. If players don't have something to progress in, they move on to something else as in another game.</li><li>Many players look at the level cap as being the "primary" cap and the AA's as the icing on the cake. Most players would rather be level 70 with say 60 AA's than level 40 with 70 AA's. They rather be gimped out a bit and able to join their friends playing at their level than have their friends be "forced" to mentor down to them. </li><li>You might get enough getting from 10-80 to skimp by and get to some end game content, but your going to want more without a doubt to fill in those deficiencies. This means you go back and utilize some of that "unused" content which we can call "filler" since new content again takes time and money to develop.</li></ul>So you give them a taste. Ah, this is what it's like to be 80...yet...something is lacking? I don't really hold up as well as the player next to me playing the same class? I'm glad I'm 80 now, but I really need to revisit those zones that I plowed through and get some AA to be more effective. It's a trade off. You retain more players because they feel getting to level cap was an accomplishment and their now motivated to improve that character...using your already developed content!You, like many others (self included) caught on. It's far more enjoyable to lock a few levels and do the content while it's more challenging or at least exciting and while building those precious AA points up. Depending on the class, it's also far easier that way. We made a Warlock/Inquisitor team this week and locked levels while building AA's. Their far more powerful and obviously, decked out in the best MC gear/spells. We get massive aggro from the mobs because their still in our level range and have fun ripping them down in fast order. This opposed to having to attempt to get aggro in an all gray zone 60 levels below my main.The feeling of "progress" is also there because the AA's are moving at a rapid pace because they are at least partially in tune to the level. Doing a level 20 quest when you have say 120 AA's maybe nets 1-2% verses the return of 6-10% at level 20 when you have say 25 AA's (just playing with numbers). The AA experience of course as we all know is a fixed number, it just feels greater when done near the appropriate level.