Monk issues following fighter revamp; list. [Archive]

Siatfallen

02-01-2009, 05:54 PM

Shamelessly stealing the idea from the similar berserker initiative on this forum, this is an attempt to compile a list of brawler issues in one concise list, to make it more accessible for any developers watching. As of the posting date (or the last edit date, as appropriate), this is to represent the monk status on the test servers.Feel free to post suggested additions to said list; as a rule of thumb, I'll include them in this post unless I think you're positively off in your perspectives ("Brawlers have too few spells and no way to obtain spell crit, and we should be able to get 250 AA points" - you get the idea). Over all, the following list is not intended to represent my personal perspective, but to give a reference list for anyone wishing for an overview of the current class troubles and concerns. This is not a completely list, but a work in progress. Please chime in.Ideally, should any issues remain unresolved once LU 51 goes live, I will repost the post here on the monk forums and request it stickied there, to retain it.I'd encourage bruisers to make their own list on this; frankly, I don't know the class well enough to monitor suggestions and sort out any but the most nonsensical.High Priority:A: Overall class designAE aggro tools are somewhat lacking. This is a universal single-target tank problem. In raids, this works perfectly fine as it defines our role. In the current expansion's instances, it makes the class extremely lacking (this point is lacking in solid data on possible improvements pending the changes on test. Anyone care to provide it?).DPS output is currently too low. Brawlers are supposedly the more DPS-oriented fighters, but we are consistently outparsed by other fighters in offensive stance, especially AE classes. This needs to change. Devs have stated that fighters in offensive should be able to parse in the area of rogue DPS (while obviously not providing the vital debuffs rogues do) - monks are currently nowhere near this. A great many of the other points in the following suggest ways to improve the current broken state of affairs.Lack of groupwide buffs the monk class, aside from Fall of the Phoenix (group FD) provides nothing to their group. This is a brawler issue. With the nerf to the monk raidwide, and all other raidwide fighter effects being boosted, this is becoming a problem in terms of remaining competitive. In short, especially in a group setting, the monk buffs are falling behind those of other fighters (possibly barring the bruiser, who is pretty short on the whole as well).Stances are not sufficiently differentiated. We are a hybrid class - our offensive stance should reflect this by retaining the taunts-become-detaunts effect originally on test. DPSing while producing sufficient hate can be achieved by utilising the balanced stance. In this manner, all three stances maintain their intended and distinct functions.Haste is buffed too much on monks, at the cost of anything else. As it is, it is easy to hit 150 haste selfbuffed for a monk in offensive stance in decent gear. This is far beyond what is reasonably useful; remove some of the haste from the monk stances, add other damage-enhancing effects. This bias towards haste over other self-buffs especially damages our raid DPS potential, since a great many buffs simply do not benefit us. One interesting suggestion would be to remove the diminishing returns mechanic from haste (and probably DPS mod while we're at it), allowing monks a gain from our currently very high selfbuffed haste.B: AA Issues:The brawler tree is not competitive with the similar warrior tree, which features more Double Attack, Critical Chance and AoE Autoattack than the brawler tree. Brawlers are supposed to be the DPS-focused fighter class; the AA trees need to reflect this. We should have more, not less, than warriors, when it comes to DPS enhancements.Additionally, Chi is falling behind compared to the ability given to Guardians via their tSO tree. Recast of Chi should be lowered to bring it in line with the Guardian ability; the main function for both abilities at present is to boost CA DPS, something Brawlers should be better at than the Guardian.The Monk (EoF) tree endlines are extremely dissappointing, bordering on useless. All of them could use a boost. Additionally, we only have three endlines, making for an extremely limited amount of choices. Specifically:Superior Riposte: Our least useless ability. Decent for the 1 point we pay for it, but not impressive. Possibly remove the component that drops it in the event of another CA being cast. Or give it 2 triggers.Bob and Weave (tSO endline) is, in all aspects, inferior to the parallel bruiser endline. Bring this ability up to par, or drop it.Suggestion for a change to Bob and Wave: Lower the reuse to 3 minutes and change the effect to be 100% uncontested dodge, to prevent strikethrough from interfering (but still, as I understand, allowing mobs with a +to hit chance the possibility of hitting us as opposed to the bruiser equivalent?).tSO offensive AA choices are far, far too weak across the board. We are a DPS fighters, but the choices available to us here are clearly weighted too heavily towards tanking, making a DPS build pointless. With DPS no longer being the key component for tanking aggro post-LU 51, these options leave much to be desired for DPS monks (they always did), and can now be boosted immensely without affecting aggro much for tanking monks (due to defensive stance modifiers).Also, we are a hybrid class; why do we not have an offensive and a defensive AA choice for endlines, but rather two (rather weak) defensive ones?Certain tSO defensive AA choices are overspecialised. Inner Focus and Meditative Healing only work against attacks so powerful they'll mostly not take place against single-group content. Adjusting them to be useful to all playstyles is needed. Suggestion for a solution to Meditative healing: Change this AA to provide damage reduction per rank, probably 2% per rank, to make it the equivalent of the bruiser mythical effect at 5 points. Hidden openings (tSO endline ability) is currently rather lackluster - as monks, we rarely have trouble with single target aggro. Many possibilities exist in regards to this AA choice, but most involve replacing it with something else entirely. The tSO tree for monks has its own share of problems as-is, and the use for this AA is much too narrow.Equipment issues:The fabled set has recently had a 5-set bonus added, a proc called nerve pinch. This proc is too weak in its aggro-holding capacity, and brings the risk of actually detaunting the mob if we lose aggro on it while tanking.In offensive capacity, we should not need the detaunt in any case.Over all, this effect is undesirable, potentially detrimental, and needs an overhaul - or to be changed to something completely different.Set pieces do not see a DPS upgrade from the VP raid set to the tSO raid set. In fact, it is weaker for that role on the whole. This needs to be brought in order. It's a new expansion, the equipment should not be worse than that from the previous one.For some equipment slots, the VP set remains the strongest items for DPS in the game. This is unacceptable.Low priorityC: Avoidance tanking mechanics Ward-proccing items, far and away most often proc from being hit. Being avoidance tanks, this means brawlers will see a lot less use of these items. Some kind of balance with more ward-items proccing off succesful attacks (which would benefit brawler tanks more because we dual-wield and monks in particular due to high self-haste) would be nice. This would be easiest to implement on brawler-specific items however.Alternately, make ward-proccing items able to proc their effects when a mob hits, or fails to hit, the person wearing said item. Lower proc rates as necessary - this would be the easy way to balance these items between all classes.Damage shields on mobs in the game at present proc a lot more on monks than plate tanks, due to our higher haste and DWing. This makes certain mobs, like Pentaclypse/Ultaclypse, exceptionally difficult to tank for us. D: Specific CAsPeel is currently not effective against a great many mobs - immunity to the target lock is far too common, greatly reducing the use of this CA. If this trend persists, rework the taunt (increased positional increase, remove forced targeting?).Also, at the moment the SK and Berserker aggro locks will overwrite Peel, but the same will not happen the other way around. Assuming this is not intentional, please look into this and allow either both or neither to overwrite the other.Additionally, the Peel AA ability from the tSO achievements tree really is not useful at all. It's another tanking ability from that tree monks will very rarely take.Enhance: Heal (monk tree, tSO) is overstacked. With the 45 second reduction in recast from the tSO fabled set and a 12% reduction from the Agi line in the KoS tree, there is no use for more than 2 points in this ability; enable the monk 4-set bonus to reduce recast past the normal cap, or better yet, change the ability entirely. Rumours were circulating that you would be changing the set bonus for a while, but nothing has happened.Full Moon is overstacked from AA choices and gear; 5 second recast reduction from EoF tree (Enhance: Full Moon), 10 seconds from tSO fabled set leggings and 12% from the agi line. Enable these to reduce the AA recast to less than the usual cap, or rework the EoF AA ability into something else.Alternately, change the bonus for wearing the tSO leggings.Tsunami currently has a cast time of 1.0 seconds. To bring it in line with other similar abilities released later, lowering the casting time to 0.5 seconds would be in order.Stone stace is currently 2:30 recast (timer starts after ability wears off/is deactivated). A further recast reduction via AA would make this ability a great deal more useful.

circusgirl

02-01-2009, 07:15 PM

Additional issues I'de like to see addressed:Warding Items: Most warding items have a % chance to proc a ward when the tank wearing them is hit, drastically reducing their effectiveness for avoidance tanks, since we are hit less and thus proc the wards less. It would be very nice for us to see more items like the wrist that drops off of Xebnok the Wretched that procs a ward on an attack, or if these items could also proc when we avoid being hit. Disparity of Avoidance Lends: Currently a brawler can significantly increase a plate tanks surviveability by giving them our avoidance lend (for example, I tend to deflect/dodge/parry about 15% of incoming hits on our MT shadowknight) but there is no ability that allows plate tanks to do the converse for us, reducing the total amount of surviveability that a monk MT could attain on raids. I know this is a long shot, but I would be extremely impressed if some sort of mitigation lend was given to the plate tanks.

Panzzzzer

02-01-2009, 11:35 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Disparity of Avoidance Lends: Currently a brawler can significantly increase a plate tanks surviveability by giving them our avoidance lend (for example, I tend to deflect/dodge/parry about 15% of incoming hits on our MT shadowknight) but there is no ability that allows plate tanks to do the converse for us, reducing the total amount of surviveability that a monk MT could attain on raids. I know this is a long shot, but I would be extremely impressed if some sort of mitigation lend was given to the plate tanks.</blockquote>Actually their avoidance buff does exactly the same as ours, just get a warrior to put their buff on you when you MT. All that matters is the quality, as the difference between en ad3 & M1 is huge.

Valenx

02-02-2009, 12:50 AM

One thought I had for the Monk KOS endline Combonation, is to make it a passive ability that procs automatically after the jab,kick,punch ability has been completed. This way it can be a viable DPS boost without the hassel of trying to fit it in with our CA rotation. Not only that the DMG on it needs to be buffed up.Another thought I had is to add a 1% chance to Flurry per AA point to our raidwide, giving the raid a 5% flurry chance. Add this to the bruiser raidwide and the raid then has a permanent 10% chance to Flurry. Assassins wont need to complain because then they will have a 20% chance (40% with FL). Brawlers in general will then be more desirable in a raid.Other than that I agree with the OP's other suggestions as well.

xKHONSx

02-02-2009, 03:52 AM

I agree with pretty much everything you've listed. A good portion of the EoF tree can use help, not just the endlines though. TSO tree has a complete lack of dps options....things like the Heal, Peel and Taunt AAs could stand to be replaced by some dps options. Also they need to either buff our aoe auto attack to 40% like plate tanks, or leave it at 24% and significantly increase our DA and Crit AAs since both of those are also lower than plate tanks. I'd be happy with 24% aoe auto if we had 30-35%ish DA and Crit from our other lines.Some of the TSO tanking abilities need some help too. <ul><li>The TSO Brawler endline Inner Focus needs to be fixed to make it viable for all Brawlers because in its current state it is really only useful for raiding Brawlers. Maybe reduce the % health that is needed to trigger it, take it down to only one stoneskin and reduce the reuse timer or something, or just make it proc off any damage and not just physical damage.</li><li>Meditative Healing needs a similar fix as Inner Focus since there are very few instance mobs that hit that hard and once again is really only useful to raiding Monks. Just tonight I tanked Palace of Ferzhul and Outer Stronghold which are obviously two of the harder TSO instances, and MH triggered only 9 times in Palace and 10 times in Stronghold....whoop dee doo!</li><li>Bob and Weave is kind of a joke. Sometimes it works decent, but then other times every single attack gets thru and you go down as if it isn't even up. So this one definitely needs work as was already suggested.</li><li>I would like to see Hidden Openings replaced with an AA that once again gives us the best version of Tsunami....for those 2 points it makes Tsunami invulnerable to Strikethru. This would be in no way over powered and would rightfully give us the best version of Tsunami back.</li></ul>That's all I can think of for now, but I'm sure there are more issues that need to be addressed.

Glerin

02-02-2009, 07:48 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Additional issues I'de like to see addressed:Warding Items: Most warding items have a % chance to proc a ward when the tank wearing them is hit, drastically reducing their effectiveness for avoidance tanks, since we are hit less and thus proc the wards less. It would be very nice for us to see more items like the wrist that drops off of Xebnok the Wretched that procs a ward on an attack, or if these items could also proc when we avoid being hit. Disparity of Avoidance Lends: Currently a brawler can significantly increase a plate tanks surviveability by giving them our avoidance lend (for example, I tend to deflect/dodge/parry about 15% of incoming hits on our MT shadowknight) but there is no ability that allows plate tanks to do the converse for us, reducing the total amount of surviveability that a monk MT could attain on raids. I know this is a long shot, but I would be extremely impressed if some sort of mitigation lend was given to the plate tanks.</blockquote>all tanks get a avoidance buff like yours and they all work the same (with slight differences but the basics are the same - they can avoid hits for you), also crusaders get a Mitigation transfer (Donation of Armament) which increases target's physical mitigation by 552

Eugam

02-02-2009, 10:24 AM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Low priorityC: Specific CAsEnhance: Heal (monk tree, tSO) is overstacked. With the 45 second reduction in recast from the tSO fabled set and a 12% reduction from the Agi line in the KoS tree, there is no use for more than 2 points in this ability; enable this AA choice to reduce recast past the normal cap, or change the ability entirely.Full Moon is overstacked from AA choices and gear; 5 second recast reduction from EoF tree (Enhance: Full Moon), 10 seconds from tSO fabled set leggings and 12% from the agi line. Enable these to reduce the AA recast to less than the usual cap, or rework the EoF AA ability into something else.</blockquote>Hold the horses a bit here.Not all have or ever will have tSO raid items. And... if you remember the relics from KoS, you will not keep those items forever. The relics had CA and skill boosts as well. But they are gone since EoF raids. And while it is rather easy for you to maybe respec AA it is a different task for the DEVs to rebalance this every expansion.

Eugam

02-02-2009, 10:41 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Additional issues I'de like to see addressed:Disparity of Avoidance Lends: Currently a brawler can significantly increase a plate tanks surviveability by giving them our avoidance lend (for example, I tend to deflect/dodge/parry about 15% of incoming hits on our MT shadowknight) but there is no ability that allows plate tanks to do the converse for us, reducing the total amount of surviveability that a monk MT could attain on raids. I know this is a long shot, but I would be extremely impressed if some sort of mitigation lend was given to the plate tanks.</blockquote>The increase of mitigation should be done on raid (aka fabled) armor items. Well, a guardian skill "under my umbrella" with 15% block/mitigation to the brawler sounds fun as well, but somehow i smell exploit <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Appollyon

02-02-2009, 11:05 AM

I posted this elsewhere but this is a problem with the merger that needs to be addressed. With the spell merger we loose a spell upgraded. The endgame stances are merged with our buff from level 69 (Focal Serenity) but at 79 (Chakra) we get an upgrade to this ability that isn't merged. As of right now the STR/WIS increase is at least 10 less str/wis than currently on live. The devs said we wouldn't loose anything with the spell merger but it seems we have. I also dont know if when the merger takes place if you have a M1 Chakra skill if you will get M1 stances since its not merged and you basicly loose that skill. I belive this is a problem for all the fighter classes not just brawlers.

Siatfallen

02-02-2009, 11:15 AM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Low priorityC: Specific CAsEnhance: Heal (monk tree, tSO) is overstacked. With the 45 second reduction in recast from the tSO fabled set and a 12% reduction from the Agi line in the KoS tree, there is no use for more than 2 points in this ability; enable this AA choice to reduce recast past the normal cap, or change the ability entirely.Full Moon is overstacked from AA choices and gear; 5 second recast reduction from EoF tree (Enhance: Full Moon), 10 seconds from tSO fabled set leggings and 12% from the agi line. Enable these to reduce the AA recast to less than the usual cap, or rework the EoF AA ability into something else.</blockquote>Hold the horses a bit here.Not all have or ever will have tSO raid items. And... if you remember the relics from KoS, you will not keep those items forever. The relics had CA and skill boosts as well. But they are gone since EoF raids. And while it is rather easy for you to maybe respec AA it is a different task for the DEVs to rebalance this every expansion.</blockquote>Decent point. It was announced (or hinted at? I forget) that the heal 4-set bonus would be reworked I have requested a change to 4-set bonus instead, since that seemed to be what they had in mind but (lo and behold) forgot about.Full Moon? The set bonus is pretty good. The AA choice sucks. That's why I'm requesting a change to the AA, not the gear - often, equipment set bonuses are allowed to carry over between expansions, and this is one of the best (okay, let's say least sucky) we've had so far. I can't say I'd like to see it changed; I've no faith it'd be for the better.

Siatfallen

02-02-2009, 11:24 AM

<cite>xKHONSx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with pretty much everything you've listed. A good portion of the EoF tree can use help, not just the endlines though. TSO tree has a complete lack of dps options....things like the Heal, Peel and Taunt AAs could stand to be replaced by some dps options. Also they need to either buff our aoe auto attack to 40% like plate tanks, or leave it at 24% and significantly increase our DA and Crit AAs since both of those are also lower than plate tanks. I'd be happy with 24% aoe auto if we had 30-35%ish DA and Crit from our other lines.Some of the TSO tanking abilities need some help too. <ul><li>The TSO Brawler endline Inner Focus needs to be fixed to make it viable for all Brawlers because in its current state it is really only useful for raiding Brawlers. Maybe reduce the % health that is needed to trigger it, take it down to only one stoneskin and reduce the reuse timer or something, or just make it proc off any damage and not just physical damage.</li><li>Meditative Healing needs a similar fix as Inner Focus since there are very few instance mobs that hit that hard and once again is really only useful to raiding Monks. Just tonight I tanked Palace of Ferzhul and Outer Stronghold which are obviously two of the harder TSO instances, and MH triggered only 9 times in Palace and 10 times in Stronghold....whoop dee doo!</li><li>Bob and Weave is kind of a joke. Sometimes it works decent, but then other times every single attack gets thru and you go down as if it isn't even up. So this one definitely needs work as was already suggested.</li><li>I would like to see Hidden Openings replaced with an AA that once again gives us the best version of Tsunami....for those 2 points it makes Tsunami invulnerable to Strikethru. This would be in no way over powered and would rightfully give us the best version of Tsunami back.</li></ul>That's all I can think of for now, but I'm sure there are more issues that need to be addressed.</blockquote>As for Bob and Weave, I've read many complaints about it, but never ones relating to it not giving the stated avoidance. Can I get a second on that observation, just so I'm sure there's an actual problem?Hidden openings added to the "issues" list under low priority since we're talking about a single AA (and CA, even). I left the suggestions for solutions out - there's too many decent bids on that one for a list of the sort I'm making here, but I think it's fair to say most agree it's currently not really helpful.I think it's fair to say that Meditative healing would be vastly overpowered if it procced on, say, 30% of max HP damage. We're talking about potentially negating half the damage on the attack. I wasn't sure quite what to write about it to give concrete suggestions on how to fix the problem (which is certainly there). I've made a point in the original post marking that Inner Focus and Meditative Healing seem almost exclusively geared towards raiders, and not too helpful for instancing monks - because i think anyone would agree on that count. If you've some way to formulate a concrete solution that wouldn't end up stepping on too many toes (raiders, soloers, whathaveyou), I'll be happy to provide it above.Slight category changes have been made as well.

Terron

02-02-2009, 11:26 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> I would be extremely impressed if some sort of mitigation lend was given to the plate tanks.</blockquote>Be impressed then. My SK has had that for a long time.

Siatfallen

02-02-2009, 11:55 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Additional issues I'de like to see addressed:Warding Items: Most warding items have a % chance to proc a ward when the tank wearing them is hit, drastically reducing their effectiveness for avoidance tanks, since we are hit less and thus proc the wards less. It would be very nice for us to see more items like the wrist that drops off of Xebnok the Wretched that procs a ward on an attack, or if these items could also proc when we avoid being hit. Disparity of Avoidance Lends: Currently a brawler can significantly increase a plate tanks surviveability by giving them our avoidance lend (for example, I tend to deflect/dodge/parry about 15% of incoming hits on our MT shadowknight) but there is no ability that allows plate tanks to do the converse for us, reducing the total amount of surviveability that a monk MT could attain on raids. I know this is a long shot, but I would be extremely impressed if some sort of mitigation lend was given to the plate tanks.</blockquote>I made a category called "Avoidance tanking mechanics" for the ward proc issue. It's actually been bugging me as well for a bit, thanks for bringing it up. Since this is the only sub-point in the rather vast category of tanking issues at the moment, it's in low priority; given further problems being reported, it might be moved.As for avoidance lends and disparity, the reason we give more is that we have more avoidance. I'm not really sure how to formulate this issue - because if (note the if) we're meant to be support tanks (tankbuffers, whatchamacallit), then the current state of affairs makes sense.If not, then I'm not sure what to suggest to bring it in line.

Zarvax

02-02-2009, 01:03 PM

Everything here sounds about right...As far as how to change Meditative healing... why not just make it reduce all phyiscal damage by 2% per rank? Bruisers get an AA that gives them our Mythical effect (leather = chain min) why don't we get one that gives us theirs? (aka 10% physical damage reduction).. or even 1% per rank, giving 5% at rank 5, so that they don't whine and complain... Either way this would be usefull for everyone, regardless of solo, heroic, raid, etc. And its not overpowered, since there are other classes that already have it.Just a thought.

Siatfallen

02-02-2009, 02:27 PM

<cite>Hamoto@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everything here sounds about right...As far as how to change Meditative healing... why not just make it reduce all phyiscal damage by 2% per rank? Bruisers get an AA that gives them our Mythical effect (leather = chain min) why don't we get one that gives us theirs? (aka 10% physical damage reduction).. or even 1% per rank, giving 5% at rank 5, so that they don't whine and complain... Either way this would be usefull for everyone, regardless of solo, heroic, raid, etc. And its not overpowered, since there are other classes that already have it.Just a thought.</blockquote>I really like that idea for Meditative Healing. If it's been suggested before, I'd completely forgotten about it. I've included it in the list above, essentially because it addresses the problem, doesn't seem overpowered and, importantly, doesn't really harm any style of play.

xKHONSx

02-02-2009, 03:10 PM

I like the idea to change Meditative Healing to reduce physical damage. It would make it useful for absolutely everyone this way. If we can't have that then at least allow it to trigger off of any attack and not just physical attacks. That would increase its effectiveness at least a little bit. The only other suggestion is to reduce the percent damage needed to trigger it. You can either have about a 25% hp trigger then reduce the heal down to 2% per rank for a total of 10% heal at rank 5, or like a 15% hp trigger then reduce the heal down to 1% per rank for a total of a 5% heal at rank 5. Smaller machine gun type heals would be make it much more useful across the board of playstyles than its current state. The 25% one seems the best balance between raiders and casuals though.The same type of fix could be used for Inner Focus. Either allow it to trigger off any attack, or lower the percent down to 20%, make it only one stone skin and reduce the reuse timer by half. More or less just cut everything in half. It will still have the same effectiveness this way but will also be much more useful for non-raiding Brawlers. Increasing the duration that it is up to actually use the stone skin would also do this AA some good.

Couching

02-02-2009, 03:24 PM

Monk dps needs a serious upgrade comparing to other fighters. Let's compare to most defensive fighter, guardian.If Monk is dps fighter and guardian is most defensive fighter, why do guardians have 4% crit, 13% DA and 40% aoe auto attack more than brawlers on the live server?Developers, if you really care EQ2, you need to fix the imbalance issues of KoS and EoF tree of every class.This game was changed a lot with live updates. KoS and EoF tree need update with those new changes from live updates. Otherwise, class balance is broken.In KoS and EoF era, brawlers have higher auto attack damage table than guardian. At that time, you gave warrior tree more crit, double attack and aoe auto attack as a compensate.Now, every fighter has the same auto attack damage table. Why do we, monk, still have less crit, da and aoe auto attack than most defensive fighter, guardian? Just because we have more haste? Come on, with haste gear and buff everywhere, 4% crit, 4% DA and 40% aoe auto attack >>>> tiny advantage of haste. Most monks will be happy to get 4% crit, 4% DA and 40% aoe auto attack than haste.Here are some suggestions of how to fix monk dps:<ul><li>Remove the diminishing return of haste/dps modification in the game.</li><li>Giving brawlers equal, if not more, crit, DA and aoe auto attack as warriors.</li></ul>For monk tanking, our TSO AA needs some modification. The major flaw is that most TSO AAs are aiming raid tanking and even though, it's worse than other fighters TSO AAs. Meditative healing is the worst monk TSO AA. It's totally a waste for casual monks and it's also not that useful for raiding monk. We have to survive the hit to get healed by this ability. Due to our low mitigation comparing to plate tanks, how to survive from hit is the biggest problem. If we can't surivive from hit, this aa is just useless.Here are some suggestions of how to fix monk Tso AA:<ul><li>Make meditative healing a direct damage reduction aa, 2% per rank. It benefits both casual and raiding monks.</li><li>Reduce the stone stance reuse timer 6 sec with every rank in mitigating blows.</li><li>Reduce the reuse timer of bob and weaves to 3 minutes or make it 100% dodge so that strikethrough can't hit through it.</li><li>Add damage component on Peel AA since it is totally useless for monk in current form. We got enough snap tools in TSO AAs already. The 5 sec reduction or extra hate per rank is totally useless. </li></ul>Other issues:<ul><li>SK and Zerker got similar peel ability and theirs can overwrite monk Peel but ours can't overwrite theirs. Please fix it.</li><li>Tsunami casting speed needs to be changed to 0.5 sec rather than 1 sec.</li><li>The reuse timer of Chi needs to be changed from 10 minutes to 5 minutes. You gave guardian a similar ability and it's 3 minutes reuse. Why? It boost their CA dps a lot. It's another major design flaw that you gave better dps ability to most defensive fighter and screwed a supposed dps fighter, brawler.</li></ul>

Couching

02-02-2009, 03:27 PM

<cite>xKHONSx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I like the idea to change Meditative Healing to reduce physical damage. It would make it useful for absolutely everyone this way. If we can't have that then at least allow it to trigger off of any attack and not just physical attacks. That would increase its effectiveness at least a little bit. The only other suggestion is to reduce the percent damage needed to trigger it. You can either have about a 25% hp trigger then reduce the heal down to 2% per rank for a total of 10% heal at rank 5, or like a 15% hp trigger then reduce the heal down to 1% per rank for a total of a 5% heal at rank 5. Smaller machine gun type heals would be make it much more useful across the board of playstyles than its current state. The 25% one seems the best balance between raiders and casuals though.The same type of fix could be used for Inner Focus. Either allow it to trigger off any attack, or lower the percent down to 20%, make it only one stone skin and reduce the reuse timer by half. More or less just cut everything in half. It will still have the same effectiveness this way but will also be much more useful for non-raiding Brawlers. Increasing the duration that it is up to actually use the stone skin would also do this AA some good.</blockquote>I agree that TSO AAs are not friendly to most casual monks and it needs a change. However, making every AA for casual is not right as well.I disagree for changing inner focus to 1 stoneskin. Most raid mobs have high double attack chances. If inner focus is only 1 stoneskin, it's useless in most cases in raid.

Mephetic

02-02-2009, 03:36 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monk dps needs a serious upgrade comparing to other fighters. Let's compare to most defensive fighter, guardian.If Monk is dps fighter and guardian is most defensive fighter, why do guardians have 4% crit, 13% DA and 40% aoe double attack more than brawlers on the live server?Developers, if you really care EQ2, you need to fix the imbalance issues of KoS and EoF tree of every class.This game was changed a lot with live updates. KoS and EoF tree need update with those new changes from live updates. Otherwise, class balance is broken.In KoS and EoF era, brawlers have higher auto attack damage table than guardian. At that time, you gave warrior tree more crit, double attack and aoe auto attack as a compensate.Now, every fighter has the same auto attack damage table. Why do we, monk, still have less crit, da and aoe auto attack than most defensive fighter, guardian? Just because we have more haste? Come on, with haste gear and buff everywhere, 4% crit, 4% DA and 40% aoe auto attack >>>> tiny advantage of haste. Most monks will be happy to get 4% crit, 4% DA and 40% aoe auto attack than haste.Here are some suggestions of how to fix monk dps:<ul><li>Remove the diminishing return of haste/dps modification in the game.</li><li>Giving brawlers equal, if not more, crit, DA and aoe auto attack as warriors.</li></ul>For monk tanking, our TSO AA needs some modification. The major flow is that most TSO AAs are aiming raid tanking and even though, it's worse than other fighters TSO AAs. Meditative healing is the worst monk TSO AA. It's totally a waste for casual monks and it's also not that useful for raiding monk. We have to survive the hit to get healed by this ability. Due to our low mitigation comparing to plate tanks, how to survive from hit is the biggest problem. If we can't surivive from hit, this aa is just useless.Here are some suggestions of how to fix monk Tso AA:<ul><li>Make meditative healing a direct damage reduction aa, 2% per rank. It benefits both casual and raiding monks.</li><li>Reduce the stone stance reuse timer 6 sec with every rank in mitigating blows.</li><li>Reduce the reuse timer of bob and weaves to 3 minutes or make it 100% dodge so that strikethrough can't hit through it.</li><li>Add damage component on Peel AA since it is totally useless for monk in current form. We got enough snap tools in TSO AAs already. The 5 sec reduction or extra hate per rank is totally useless. </li></ul>Other issue:<ul><li>SK and Zerker got similar peel ability and theirs can overwrite monk Peel but ours can't overwrite theirs. Please fix it.</li><li>Tsunami casting speed needs to be changed to 0.5 sec rather than 1 sec.</li><li>The reuse timer of Chi needs to be changed from 10 minutes to 5 minutes. You gave guardian a similar ability and it's 3 minutes reuse. Why? It boost their CA dps a lot. It's another major design flaw that you gave better dps ability to most defensive fighter and screwed a supposed dps fighter, brawler.</li></ul></blockquote>I think that was good enough to bear repeating.......Lets Hope Dev's Listen.

xKHONSx

02-02-2009, 03:50 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that TSO AAs are not friendly to most casual monks and it needs a change. However, making every AA for casual is not right as well.I disagree for changing inner focus to 1 stoneskin. Most raid mobs have high double attack chances. If inner focus is only 1 stoneskin, it's useless in most cases in raid.</blockquote>Just making suggestions is all. I'm not trying to take anything away from raiders, but would like to see things be equally useful for all Monks and didn't feel my suggestions infringed upon the balance. I used to raid and always have provided feedback that would benefit any style of play. I know you are a raiding Monk and I do appreciate the feedback you provide since you look out for Monks as a whole whereas a lot of raiders seem to want things curtailed to them.

Gnomie

02-02-2009, 04:06 PM

The argument for AOE autoattack is valid. The argument for having more crit and DA is a little more complicated. Non-brawler avoidance is mostly tied in with using a shield, brawler avoid is tied to stance. Especially looking at GU51 (or whatever it is when it comes out), when they want tanks to tank in defensive, this makes balancing crit and DA trickier.The fact that brawlers always duel-wield, even on the hardest fights they encounter, effects what benefit you get from crit and DA (1 point ofda is worth 1.5x as much when dual wielding...factoring in delay increase, ratio for crit depends on what percentage of DPS is autoattack vs. CA/spell, but will be less obviously).I realize warriors can duel wield also, but not on hard content (at least without very good healing since their un-contested goes to crap).I also realize this is more pertinent to raids, as most heroic content can be managed with warriors duel wielding.But, just throwing this out there, as it's certainly something the developers are (or at least should be) considering.

Siatfallen

02-02-2009, 05:46 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are some suggestions of how to fix monk dps:<ul><li>Remove the diminishing return of haste/dps modification in the game.</li></ul>Honestly, I think this goes a little bit beyond normal class modifications; I've a point concerning redesigning monk selbuffing with too high haste in particular. You'll forgive me, I hope, if I do not post this particular way of doing this as a solution; I simply think it's too sweeping to suggest per se. That said, further hasting monks is going to make CA timing a nightmare.<ul><li>Giving brawlers equal, if not more, crit, DA and aoe auto attack as warriors.</li></ul>It's on the list already. ;pAnything to add to it in particular?[snip]Here are some suggestions of how to fix monk Tso AA:<ul><li>Make meditative healing a direct damage reduction aa, 2% per rank. It benefits both casual and raiding monks.</li></ul>It's on the list as described.<ul><li>Reduce the stone stance reuse timer 6 sec with every rank in mitigating blows.</li></ul>We already have a recast reduction to stone stance from our EoF abilities doing exactly that. I'd be concerned with stacking AA on top of other AA personally; alternately, I might suggest improving the recast value on the EoF line instead of adding it to the tSO line?On a purely personal note, I never really felt that mitigating blows was in any major need up an upgrade.<ul><li>Reduce the reuse timer of bob and weaves to 3 minutes or make it 100% dodge so that strikethrough can't hit through it.</li></ul>A little more specific than what is on the list currently. I'll update the list with this concrete suggestion as an example.<ul><li>Add damage component on Peel AA since it is totally useless for monk in current form. We got enough snap tools in TSO AAs already. The 5 sec reduction or extra hate per rank is totally useless.</li></ul>I'm not entirely sure I follow the logic here. I get that the peel AA isn't exactly useful, but why would we want, specifically, to have damage added to Peel? It's there to act as a taunt effect after all.Other issues:<ul><li>SK and Zerker got similar peel ability and theirs can overwrite monk Peel but ours can't overwrite theirs. Please fix it.</li></ul>Added a comment on peel for this one specifically. I wasn't aware of this problem, but I'll take your word for it unless someone objects - I guess it just goes to show how much I use peel while grouped with a crusader.<ul><li>Tsunami casting speed needs to be changed to 0.5 sec rather than 1 sec.</li></ul>I'm not sure I follow the problem here. We may spike to death before getting tsunami off, but that's always been a problem. Is it a matter of the newer Tsunami-esque effects having this shorter casting time?<ul><li>The reuse timer of Chi needs to be changed from 10 minutes to 5 minutes. You gave guardian a similar ability and it's 3 minutes reuse. Why? It boost their CA dps a lot. It's another major design flaw that you gave better dps ability to most defensive fighter and screwed a supposed dps fighter, brawler.</li></ul>I'll add this one to the list, certainly, but given that we've already seen one reduction to Chi recast this expansion, I am not too optimistic.</blockquote>

Couching

02-02-2009, 06:36 PM

With the remove of haste/dps diminishing return, we are still at the cap of haste and it didn't change anything for monk to time our CA during auto attack.Stone stance is 3 minutes reuse. With EoF aa, it's 2:30 minutes. In other word, it's up 1/5 when you are tanking if the fight is longer than 3 minutes. I would like to see more reduction of reuse timer by aa.Peel TSO AA is a waste. Either replacing it or adding damage on it. Yes, it's still weak but better than the current form on live server.For tsunami, both sk and bruiser tsunami casting speed is 0.5 sec rather than 1 sec. We need to be at least on par with them since tsunami was monk class define ability.For chi, it's all about class balance. For guardian defensive mended, it's 3 minutes reuse and increases reuse speed of caster by 40 for 20 sec. What we get is 10 minutes reuse and increases reuse speed of caster by 50 for 30 sec. Anyone can see how powerful defensive mended is and it is much better than chi.

jrolla777

02-02-2009, 08:43 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monk dps needs a serious upgrade comparing to other fighters. Let's compare to most defensive fighter, guardian.If Monk is dps fighter and guardian is most defensive fighter, why do guardians have 4% crit, 13% DA and 40% aoe double attack more than brawlers on the live server?Developers, if you really care EQ2, you need to fix the imbalance issues of KoS and EoF tree of every class.This game was changed a lot with live updates. KoS and EoF tree need update with those new changes from live updates. Otherwise, class balance is broken.In KoS and EoF era, brawlers have higher auto attack damage table than guardian. At that time, you gave warrior tree more crit, double attack and aoe auto attack as a compensate.Now, every fighter has the same auto attack damage table. Why do we, monk, still have less crit, da and aoe auto attack than most defensive fighter, guardian? Just because we have more haste? Come on, with haste gear and buff everywhere, 4% crit, 4% DA and 40% aoe auto attack >>>> tiny advantage of haste. Most monks will be happy to get 4% crit, 4% DA and 40% aoe auto attack than haste.Here are some suggestions of how to fix monk dps:<ul><li>Remove the diminishing return of haste/dps modification in the game.</li><li>Giving brawlers equal, if not more, crit, DA and aoe auto attack as warriors.</li></ul>For monk tanking, our TSO AA needs some modification. The major flaw is that most TSO AAs are aiming raid tanking and even though, it's worse than other fighters TSO AAs. Meditative healing is the worst monk TSO AA. It's totally a waste for casual monks and it's also not that useful for raiding monk. We have to survive the hit to get healed by this ability. Due to our low mitigation comparing to plate tanks, how to survive from hit is the biggest problem. If we can't surivive from hit, this aa is just useless.Here are some suggestions of how to fix monk Tso AA:<ul><li>Make meditative healing a direct damage reduction aa, 2% per rank. It benefits both casual and raiding monks.</li><li>Reduce the stone stance reuse timer 6 sec with every rank in mitigating blows.</li><li>Reduce the reuse timer of bob and weaves to 3 minutes or make it 100% dodge so that strikethrough can't hit through it.</li><li>Add damage component on Peel AA since it is totally useless for monk in current form. We got enough snap tools in TSO AAs already. The 5 sec reduction or extra hate per rank is totally useless. </li></ul>Other issues:<ul><li>SK and Zerker got similar peel ability and theirs can overwrite monk Peel but ours can't overwrite theirs. Please fix it.</li><li>Tsunami casting speed needs to be changed to 0.5 sec rather than 1 sec.</li><li>The reuse timer of Chi needs to be changed from 10 minutes to 5 minutes. You gave guardian a similar ability and it's 3 minutes reuse. Why? It boost their CA dps a lot. It's another major design flaw that you gave better dps ability to most defensive fighter and screwed a supposed dps fighter, brawler.</li></ul></blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>With the remove of haste/dps diminishing return, we are still at the cap of haste and it didn't change anything for monk to time our CA during auto attack.Stone stance is 3 minutes reuse. With EoF aa, it's 2:30 minutes. In other word, it's up 1/5 when you are tanking if the fight is longer than 3 minutes. I would like to see more reduction of reuse timer by aa.Peel TSO AA is a waste. Either replacing it or adding damage on it. Yes, it's still weak but better than the current form on live server.For tsunami, both sk and bruiser tsunami casting speed is 0.5 sec rather than 1 sec. We need to be at least on par with them since tsunami was monk class define ability.For chi, it's all about class balance. For guardian defensive mended, it's 3 minutes reuse and increases reuse speed of caster by 40 for 20 sec. What we get is 10 minutes reuse and increases reuse speed of caster by 50 for 30 sec. Anyone can see how powerful defensive mended is and it is much better than chi.</blockquote>QFE, this couching guy has a good head on his shoulders. His reccomendations are level headed and appropriate for the issues facing monks

Queen Alexandria

02-02-2009, 09:15 PM

I wish a dev would respond with constructive criticism on this subject. Reading it is one thing, but don't leave us in the dark. Let us know what you think so we can start a discussion about these issues. If you don't agree with some or any of them, atleast tell us why or let us know what makes sense so we can know things are heading in the right direction.

Derang

02-02-2009, 10:21 PM

Very nice Topic and clean, very understandable, just maybe Aeralik will read this and understand our pain.Btw I agree with everyone so far on our issues.

Eugam

02-03-2009, 03:17 AM

<cite>jrolla777 wrote:</cite><h2>40% aoe autoattack for brawlers in '09!</h2>I want to go back to this point again. IMHO AE autoattack is the evil. It is the evil, because i have no way to control it. It just happens. Personally i wouldnt waste AA into it in my wildest dreams. Ask your local enchanter what i am talking about. AE auto-attack is just that: auto. Uncontrollable. No way to build strats or adapt to a certain group setup. It will happen, auto-magically.The current paradigm suggests that lots of AE auto-attack helps the tank to hold aggro on adds and linked encounters to some degree. Aye, and the monk will parse higher on multimob encounters, but lets forget about this for now and look at tanking...Although the brawlers still need some dps to tank, the changes in #51 will move hate away from damage to taunts.Shouldnt the monk rather ask for a (much) lower reuse timer on the green taunt and maybe on the blue AE CA ?Personally i would prefer that after GU#51.

Natthan

02-03-2009, 04:33 AM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>jrolla777 wrote:</cite><h2>40% aoe autoattack for brawlers in '09!</h2>I want to go back to this point again. IMHO AE autoattack is the evil. It is the evil, because i have no way to control it. It just happens. Personally i wouldnt waste AA into it in my wildest dreams. Ask your local enchanter what i am talking about. AE auto-attack is just that: auto. Uncontrollable. No way to build strats or adapt to a certain group setup. It will happen, auto-magically.The current paradigm suggests that lots of AE auto-attack helps the tank to hold aggro on adds and linked encounters to some degree. Aye, and the monk will parse higher on multimob encounters, but lets forget about this for now and look at tanking...Although the brawlers still need some dps to tank, the changes in #51 will move hate away from damage to taunts.Shouldnt the monk rather ask for a (much) lower reuse timer on the green taunt and maybe on the blue AE CA ?Personally i would prefer that after GU#51.</blockquote>Enchanter Mez's prevent them being AoE'ed

MadBarman

02-03-2009, 08:38 AM

I recently came back to the game after a 6 month break and one of the biggest issue with monks I see is that most of our so called class defining abilities have been given to other classes.Stifling Palm - Berzerkers get the vanquish line starting at level 40. At level 68 they have Ram, at master 1 this is 6 second stifle, 700-1900 ish damage, 1 min recast for 210 power. Level 80 Stifling Palm master 1, 6 second stifle, 700-1150 ish damage, 30 second recast for 162 power.Tsunami - Quite a few classes have some version of tsunami as good as or better than the monks ancient teachings ability.Mythical Weapon - reinforce armour to rival that of chain, Bruisers now get this as an AA ability.We are still the only ones with group feign death though (for now)As for our achievements I gave up hoping they would be improved, it's taken years just to get AoE autoattack. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Siatfallen

02-04-2009, 08:42 AM

Added the new concerns in the thread so far.The request for higher AE autoattack will remain despite arguments against it - since said arguments seem to be based on mechanics no longer in the game (AE autoattack breaking mez).A further note on damage shields and monk tanking was made under avoidance tanking mechanics (doesn't seem entirely accurate, I may rename the category or somesuch).

Turb

02-04-2009, 10:07 AM

What are our issues? It's a good question. For perspective I raid TSO (we killed Xebnok and Switchmaster) and like to run guild groups for instances. I'm pretty well equipped, but we haven't had a sniff of an Avatar.There's probably four types of role we have:a) Soloing - well, I don't think we have many complaints here. We're good, solid soloers. If anything when we ask for improvements in other areas people say 'ah, but you're good soloers', so it can be a bit of a curse.b) Group tanking - here the big issue is AE aggro. We need better tools to hold AE aggro than we have now. While we have had a few single target snap aggro tools added, keeping mobs off the AE dps classes is a pita. The TSO AA that removes stun from Iron Stance is very useful though.c) Group or raid dps - if we're well geared and particular when we pop Chi we can push rogue level dps, or at least embarass any slacking rogues. The main issue we have is that we run way over haste cap very easily. So a lot of buffs (including our own raid-wide buff) is wasted on us. We can do respectable dps, but it's odd that as the 'dps tank' other - on paper - more defensive tanks can out dps us.d) Raid tanking - in the right MT group there's a lot we can tank. The problem is that we're more open to spike damage and we lack the 'oh sh*t' abilities that other tanks have. In *theory* that's a tradeoff for our better dps. It also seems more and more mobs are Peel immune (presumably to other aggro tools too?).So what would I say are important changes?1) Improve AE aggro. The proposed AE autoattack change is a good step. Our aggro stance should ideally proc encounter aggro too. If both of these were implemented, it would certainly help. The one concern is that an AE autoattack replacing our AE damage proc would lower our DPS on single targets. I guess a price worth paying.2) Reduce our tendency to take spike damage. As suggested above change one of our 'healing' AAs to be an even mit boost (or damage reduction) over time. Improve reuse timer on Iron Stance. Make or allow Tsunami to be upgraded to prevent strikethrough. Reduce Tsunami cast time. Reduce the falloff in avoidance vs higher level mobs a little.3) Review our haste buffs. The haste 'advantage' has been eroded with recent expansions, to the point where I suspect many monks see 300+ haste in raids. Consider giving us alternative dps self-buffs, via +melee crit, +dps or I think most in keeping for us +double attack - or maybe add a triple attack AA for 2% or 3% triple attack per point. Something other than haste anyway.4) Improve our 'oh sh*t' abilities. I'm also not 'convinced' by Bob and Weave. If it's allowing strikethrough, it's certainly not so useful.Other random nits:* Upgrade our avoid buff at L80 so we have a chance to get M1 of the darn thing. It's the one M1 I'm missing and farming Courts/etc, well.* As Couching says, our other new TSO snap aggro tools have a damage component, so why not Peel? At least if the mob is Peel immune we can do some dps.

Cusashorn

02-04-2009, 10:11 AM

Here's something I'd like to see get changed.Remember a few years ago when they changed the fighter classes' HP and Power? They changed it so that Brawlers had more overall HP than everyone else, but less overall power.Crusaders had more overall power, but less overall HP, and Warriors had even amounts.I was grouped yesterday with an ogre guardian who had over 16,000 HP when properly buffed. I admit, he had a lot of T2 Void Shard Armor and some T8 fabled, but when was the last time you saw a monk break anywhere close to that much with equal gear and buffs?

Lethe5683

02-04-2009, 10:23 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's something I'd like to see get changed.Remember a few years ago when they changed the fighter classes' HP and Power? They changed it so that Brawlers had more overall HP than everyone else, but less overall power.Crusaders had more overall power, but less overall HP, and Warriors had even amounts.I was grouped yesterday with an ogre guardian who had over 16,000 HP when properly buffed. I admit, he had a lot of T2 Void Shard Armor and some T8 fabled, but when was the last time you saw a monk break anywhere close to that much with equal gear and buffs?</blockquote>People keep saying brawlers have more hp and less power. Well I certainly am seeing the less power but plate tanks I group with tend to have pretty much the same or more hp even though their gear was not much better than mine.

Couching

02-04-2009, 10:41 AM

It's already changed that brawler didn't get more hp from sta nor less power from str comparing to other fighters.Every fighter gets the same benefit from attributes. The only exception is that crusader power is calculated by multiple attributes rather than str comparing to warrior and brawler.

Errolflynn

02-04-2009, 10:43 AM

My Swash has about the same health as my Monk, circa 10K. My Swash does have better gear though. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Lethe5683

02-04-2009, 10:50 AM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's already changed that brawler didn't get more hp from sta nor less power from str comparing to other fighters.Every fighter gets the same benefit from attributes. The only exception is that crusader power is calculated by multiple attributes rather than str comparing to warrior and brawler.</blockquote>Hybrid classes like crusaders and bards also get more power than their "pure" counterparts. As for sta and hp it seems it doesn't do that much anyways. In my RoK gear I only had like 400 sta and now that I have shard gear I have like 600 but my hp only went up 1,000 and that's not taking into account that all the shard armor has more +hp than my rok armor did (But less power as well, not like that's ever and issue with power tap adornments).

mr23sgte

02-04-2009, 04:22 PM

Bump for good Ideas - please listen this time. EOF end AA abilites need major revamp as well.

Arrowheart

02-04-2009, 06:30 PM

Hope the devs take a look at this and at least consider some of the ideas/feedback.

Soefje

02-04-2009, 07:29 PM

Just curious here, not trying to start a flame war.I was wondering how many brawlers would rather just be re-classified as a scout class, have their DPS bumped up to T1 level DPS, and have a decrease in some of their aggro/tanking abilities instead of what is being proposed on Test?

ShinGoku

02-04-2009, 07:36 PM

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just curious here, not trying to start a flame war.I was wondering how many brawlers would rather just be re-classified as a scout class, have their DPS bumped up to T1 level DPS, and have a decrease in some of their aggro/tanking abilities instead of what is being proposed on Test?</blockquote>Personally I have never been interested in doing T1 damage - True story!Monks should outdamage every other fighter in every way (other than bruisers) due to the fact we sacrifice mitigation for it. But as just about anyone else will tell you, our durability is worse than any other tank and our damage isnt the best!I would settle for my ability to kill things to be beefed up, I don't need scout dps, I have a swashy for that!

ShinGoku

02-04-2009, 07:38 PM

Double post ftw - Sorry!

Siatfallen

02-04-2009, 07:39 PM

Monks should never become t1 DPS - quite simply because that spot is reserved to classes who recieve very little to no utility, compared to things like the avoidance lends and raidwide buffs of the brawler classes.That said, lowered survivability (keep the capacity for short-term emergency tanking), but DPS on level with a swashbuckler while retaining the buffs we are able to grant now? Yes, I'd be happy with that, and it'd be a decently balanced class. Rogues get debuffs and some utility, we get utility and "oh sh*t"-style tanking. For the longest time, before tSO beta went live I was expecting this to be the direction of the brawler class onwards.However, I doubt this change will be made and really, it's not the only solution out there. But we do need some kind of direction to the class. Far as I can tell, the reason we continue to struggle is that frankly, the developers aren't rightly sure how they want us to function - and when they do try to subtract something from one area of the class to give us something in another to provide that focus, much drama is caused by it.

circusgirl

02-04-2009, 10:11 PM

If I wanted to be T1 dps I'de be an assassin. I enjoy tanking, and I enjoy the freedom and fun of playing a monk.Here is my issue with avoidance lends--its an incredibly useful ability when cast by an avoidance tank on a plate tank. The greater the difference between the target and caster's avoidance the bigger a difference it will make. The target gets avoidance if 1)the plate tank fails his avoidance check, 2)the spell procs, and 3)the caster makes his avoidance check. Yes, all tanks get an ability like this, and part 2 is something that is equal across all tanks. In a raid, the offtanks cast this on the main tanks in order to improve their surviveability, and it has a HUGE effect. Typically speaking, I am 30% of the SK main tank's avoidance, and I avoid 15% of incoming hits for her (and this is against orange mobs). The problem is that this mechanic is biased against leather main tanks for raids. If a plate tank casts this spell on a brawler, then because the brawler misses less avoidance checks the spell has less of a chance to proc, and if it does proc, there is a lesser chance that the second check using the plate tank's avoidance will be successful. The issue here is that plate tanks can have a huge boost to their surviveability using this mechanic, while the benefit for brawlers is marginal at best.I'll be honest--I have no idea how you'd go about creating a comparable mechanic that allowed mitigation lending. Maybe it could be something as simple as "on a failed avoidance check target has an X% chance of mitigating the damage using the caster's mitigation. If that was the case, then we could actually have a zerker offtank (which is the role that the devs are saying they belong in) increase the surviveability of a monk main tank (and according to that letter posted on the main page thats the role we're suppossed to be in) to the same degree that a bruiser offtank can help a guardian. There's a few issues with that idea since it still wouldn't be on par with avoidance lending, since that would only be useful if there was a significant increase in mitigation, so a mastercrafted plate tank couldn't help a fabled brawler while a mastercrafted brawler can still absolutely help a fabled plate tank at least to some degree, but its still a cool idea.Its kind of a cool idea because if we could ever convince the devs to do it, we wouldn't be hurting ANYONE. We'de be giving extra utility to plate tanks. Oh...and to the shadowknight--400 mitigation is not anywhere near the same as 15% less incoming damage, which is what we can give plate tanks.

Siatfallen

02-04-2009, 10:36 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I wanted to be T1 dps I'de be an assassin. I enjoy tanking, and I enjoy the freedom and fun of playing a monk.Here is my issue with avoidance lends--its an incredibly useful ability when cast by an avoidance tank on a plate tank. The greater the difference between the target and caster's avoidance the bigger a difference it will make. The target gets avoidance if 1)the plate tank fails his avoidance check, 2)the spell procs, and 3)the caster makes his avoidance check. Yes, all tanks get an ability like this, and part 2 is something that is equal across all tanks. In a raid, the offtanks cast this on the main tanks in order to improve their surviveability, and it has a HUGE effect. Typically speaking, I am 30% of the SK main tank's avoidance, and I avoid 15% of incoming hits for her (and this is against orange mobs). The problem is that this mechanic is biased against leather main tanks for raids. If a plate tank casts this spell on a brawler, then because the brawler misses less avoidance checks the spell has less of a chance to proc, and if it does proc, there is a lesser chance that the second check using the plate tank's avoidance will be successful. The issue here is that plate tanks can have a huge boost to their surviveability using this mechanic, while the benefit for brawlers is marginal at best.I'll be honest--I have no idea how you'd go about creating a comparable mechanic that allowed mitigation lending. Maybe it could be something as simple as "on a failed avoidance check target has an X% chance of mitigating the damage using the caster's mitigation. If that was the case, then we could actually have a zerker offtank (which is the role that the devs are saying they belong in) increase the surviveability of a monk main tank (and according to that letter posted on the main page thats the role we're suppossed to be in) to the same degree that a bruiser offtank can help a guardian. There's a few issues with that idea since it still wouldn't be on par with avoidance lending, since that would only be useful if there was a significant increase in mitigation, so a mastercrafted plate tank couldn't help a fabled brawler while a mastercrafted brawler can still absolutely help a fabled plate tank at least to some degree, but its still a cool idea.Its kind of a cool idea because if we could ever convince the devs to do it, we wouldn't be hurting ANYONE. We'de be giving extra utility to plate tanks. Oh...and to the shadowknight--400 mitigation is not anywhere near the same as 15% less incoming damage, which is what we can give plate tanks.</blockquote>I gave this a bit of thought. I may be off here, but upon first inspection, here's my thoughts:Actually, when considering attacks that CAN be avoided in the first place (that is, not considering spell effects and the like since they are not affected at all), as far as the efficiency of the buff is concerned, the avoidance of the tank it is being cast on is completely irrelevant.What you want to be looking at is the percentage of damage that the tank would otherwise take being avoided by this buff. It doesn't matter, in that regard, wether the tank dodges half, or two thirds of the incoming hits in the first place. Some amount of damage comes through his own avoidance, and out of that, a certain amount gets a chance of being avoided.Long story short: A brawler casting an avoidance buff on another brawler will give exactly the same percentile reduction is damage as a brawler casting the same avoidance buff on a plate tank.So the essence of this argument is that monks and bruisers take a hit on tanking ability because our avoidance is higher - but that's assuming you do not run a secondary brawler in the raid; if you do that and he places the avoidance buff on the first brawler, the argument is entirely void.Additionally, on the SK comparison, that's 400 mit, on top of whatever avoidance the SK offers via his avoidance buff. It's not going to be exactly equal, but counting out his avoidance lend paints the picture far worse than it is.So, yes, there's a difference at play here. But really, it's not the end of the world. The nature of avoidance tanking, diminishing returns and contested avoidance being reduced by orange-cons is our problem with survivability. This is a minor factor at most.I'm fine with this argument running in this thread, but if it gets very long and exhaustive, let's move it to another thread. This is a concerns listing thread, not really the place for very long discussions on this or that mechanic.That said: I'll absolutely list this one, as I've said before. But I'm not sure how to formulate it exactly. I mean "Brawlers are weaker than plate tanks for tanking because plate tanks do not get good enough buffs" seems a bit unproductive to me - not to mention that is may marginalise brawlers even further to see that state of affairs changed, something I cannot say I'd want. It would translate into "Hey, we're underpowered over here, please nerf us!"So, how exactly do you want to present this problem?

Gnomie

02-04-2009, 10:38 PM

Lethe5683

02-04-2009, 11:58 PM

Derang

02-05-2009, 11:43 AM

Hey I wouldnt mind a dps increase seeing that we gained barely any since TSO Release and every other class gained dps, now we lose to other fighters gg, dont want T1 dps just want our dps to be where it should be...Anyways...still no dev response o_0 nice to see Assassins and Swashie's + more get treated better.

Junaru

02-05-2009, 11:48 AM

I just want a clear job that I do. SOE calls us the DPS or Avoidance tank but neither is really true. We don't out DPS other tanks, and while we have a large amount of avoidance because of diminished returns it doesn't translate to much over a plate tank.

Zipan

02-05-2009, 12:40 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just curious here, not trying to start a flame war.I was wondering how many brawlers would rather just be re-classified as a scout class, have their DPS bumped up to T1 level DPS, and have a decrease in some of their aggro/tanking abilities instead of what is being proposed on Test?</blockquote>If they did that I would never play my bruiser again.</blockquote>Let's just say if they took tanking away from my TANK, which monks very much are, I'd cancel all 3 of my accounts. For those of you under-geared, all dps, no-tank-spec monks: Quit crying! Earn some gear by actually tanking something. It's not easy mode like soloing, but it's do-able.

Junaru

02-05-2009, 01:31 PM

Fabricius

02-05-2009, 05:56 PM

Right now I love playing my Monk. Still. I tanked Xebnok last night without much difficulty, when our healers stopped slacking that is. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /> Then I can go to palace and do 9k on trash at times.I hate the fact that a Zerk, SK or Pally can out parse me at times and I hope that is fixed. I would love to see some of the changes listed.Problems I see, as listed the heal reuse is redundant with tso set pieces. In the corresponding AA slot Bruisers get a AA that adds to there raid wide buff in order to reduce hate gain of all non fighters in raid. Before this AA the nerf to our raid buff put us on par with bruiser raidwide but with the new AA our raid wide is sub par.I dont mind how it is done but the redundant heal reuse I would love to see changed and since the Dev's are leaning towards changing the TSO 4 set bonus I would love to see it changed so that it would bring our raid wide back to where it was before nerf. This imo would bring our Raidwide back on par with bruisers.I would love to see 2% dmg reduction per AA spent in meditative healing to bring Monks back in line as the "Defensive Brawler" as we were labled by Aeralik. Right now we are niether the DPS nor the Defensive brawler. We are also not even the utility brawler with the raid wide AA for Bruisers.The Peel AA is virtually worthless as well as Strikethrough and would love to see a change in both, however they deem necessary to make us more on par with Bruisers. I am not jumping to be on par with plate tanks as we should be cause I think it would be asking for to much. Though 40% AoE attack would be nice since duel wield has no basis here, it procs off main hand and also our delay dont matter because we do less damage with less delay so it would still be on par even at 40%, the crit% and DA % are on par with what I would expect since in full defensive we will have 2 weapons possibly double attacking or scoring a critical hit.I would also love some solid end abilities in Monk Tree. Since we dont have 1 solid choice let alone 1 sensible one.Also if I can't tank I'd quit eq2, changing brawlers to a tier 1 or tier 2 DPS would be insane. IMO-Fabricius

Lethe5683

02-06-2009, 10:27 AM

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zipan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just curious here, not trying to start a flame war.I was wondering how many brawlers would rather just be re-classified as a scout class, have their DPS bumped up to T1 level DPS, and have a decrease in some of their aggro/tanking abilities instead of what is being proposed on Test?</blockquote>If they did that I would never play my bruiser again.</blockquote>Let's just say if they took tanking away from my TANK, which monks very much are, I'd cancel all 3 of my accounts. For those of you under-geared, all dps, no-tank-spec monks: Quit crying! Earn some gear by actually tanking something. It's not easy mode like soloing, but it's do-able.</blockquote>Hey my Monk was created when EQ2 came out and was made with the understanding he was a tank (I started off as a fighter, I even used a round shield). Years later SOE still have ZERO clue how to make this happen in a balanced way. Balancing leather tanks was a mistake from day one. So if SOE make a Monk into a T1 DPS class I would have zero issue. Why because they will never balance us with plate tanks.At this point I don't care which way SOE takes up as long as it is a direction. This "do all half as good" crap is kind of getting old.</blockquote>I'd rather be a subpar tank than some ghetto DPS class. I play my assassin when I want to DPS.

Junaru

02-06-2009, 03:30 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zipan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just curious here, not trying to start a flame war.I was wondering how many brawlers would rather just be re-classified as a scout class, have their DPS bumped up to T1 level DPS, and have a decrease in some of their aggro/tanking abilities instead of what is being proposed on Test?</blockquote>If they did that I would never play my bruiser again.</blockquote>Let's just say if they took tanking away from my TANK, which monks very much are, I'd cancel all 3 of my accounts. For those of you under-geared, all dps, no-tank-spec monks: Quit crying! Earn some gear by actually tanking something. It's not easy mode like soloing, but it's do-able.</blockquote>Hey my Monk was created when EQ2 came out and was made with the understanding he was a tank (I started off as a fighter, I even used a round shield). Years later SOE still have ZERO clue how to make this happen in a balanced way. Balancing leather tanks was a mistake from day one. So if SOE make a Monk into a T1 DPS class I would have zero issue. Why because they will never balance us with plate tanks.At this point I don't care which way SOE takes up as long as it is a direction. This "do all half as good" crap is kind of getting old.</blockquote>I'd rather be a subpar tank than some ghetto DPS class. I play my assassin when I want to DPS.</blockquote>And there is the problem with the Brawlers. People willing to settle for less then. I didn't start my Monk with the idea of DPS. I started him with the idea that he was a "Fighter - > Brawler - > Monk". I wanted to be a tank. I wanted to tank raids but Nov 2004 was a long time ago. Now we are a hybried and thats not what I signed up for. Like I said at this point I don't care if SOE makes us DPS or tanks I just want a single job that I can do as well as any other class doing that job.

Siatfallen

02-06-2009, 10:07 PM

<cite>Zipan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just curious here, not trying to start a flame war.I was wondering how many brawlers would rather just be re-classified as a scout class, have their DPS bumped up to T1 level DPS, and have a decrease in some of their aggro/tanking abilities instead of what is being proposed on Test?</blockquote>If they did that I would never play my bruiser again.</blockquote>Let's just say if they took tanking away from my TANK, which monks very much are, I'd cancel all 3 of my accounts. For those of you under-geared, all dps, no-tank-spec monks: Quit crying! Earn some gear by actually tanking something. It's not easy mode like soloing, but it's do-able.</blockquote>I understand your point of view here. However (aside from asking you for nicer formulations):I'd not call myself undergeared. There were two items I would actually use for tanking outside avatar gear in RoK I did not get (have them now), and DPS gear, I had pretty much down flat. I think I missed out on the cloaks from Byzola and Trakanon respectively. Oh no.I can't say I've the best monk gear in the game right now, but sitting at 4 set pieces from tSO, I really can't complain. So, if that's your gear standard for "undergeared", come again?I made this character to have fun with the game, without much idea about the mechanics of the game (used to be a hardline roleplayer back in the day). I asked my roommate (old eq1 player) about a class somewhat decent for tanking, but more bent towards dealing damage, and monk it was.When I actually started looking at parses, mechanics and whathaveyou back during KoS, that was a fairly decent description of the monk class anyway ("horribly underpowered for raiding" also comes to mind, but never mind that).Tanking? Oh sure. An instance now and then, but absolutely nothing major. My raid leader insisted that I act as DPS, so that was certainly the focus. I was running a full DPS spec by the time EoF came out.Serious tanking came about in RoK. By "serious" I mean "Oh noes, our OT couldn't make it today, we need a tank for Phara Dar!" At worst. Can't say it was hard in a DPS spec really.All dreams of the past aside, to keep a flame war at bay here:Since then, and especially since tSO came out, I've been speccing increasingly towards tanking. That doesn't mean it's what I want out of the class, it just means that right now, that's the mechanically viable option; I'm no longer competing with rogues on the parse (don't ask; I was throughout t7 and to my dismay through some of t8 too - blame the rogues of my then-raid alliance I guess) even though, according to developers, that's how it should be in offensive stance.I do not dislike the current trend per se - it does however feel like redefining the class for me after playing through t7 and a major part of tSO. Worse, not only does it feel like redefining it, but stopping short of doing so strongly enough to give the class any real direction.This leaves two valid options as I see it:1: If they are serious about making us DPS/Tank hybrids (which is their stated intent from a few fairly recent quotes), they need to increase our DPS to be as strong as our tanking (which would be below the purist DPS classes for sure, but on par with those with other major qualities to them). That means solid t2, assuming optimised spec for DPS. Brigands and Swashbucklers are hybrids as well after all. This observation seems to shock and horrify many (scouts in particular); I can't say I understand exactly why.2: If they want us to be straight tanks, that'll work too, but then we need even more survivability than the heavy-handed tSO lines have given us, because we're behind other tanks on every single aspect of the class right now (some added utility aside). The problems of avoidance-tanking would be a good place to start I guess, but it hasn't met much success that I can remember.As an aside, for the tanking monks out there who happen to prefer that playstyle: Happy you got a push towards what you wanted, and it does seem like we've been worse off before. But when you make statements like "If they take away our ability to tank, I'll quit the game (etc)", consider the other side of the coin here and at least have the base level of courtesy not to tell the DPS part of the population to shut up and stop whining (edit: This specifically not aimed at the people actually saying they'd quit if the tanking ability was removed, just to be clear).The observations and concerns of this thread, at least to the extent that I've given the specific formulations in the original post, all work within the framework of the two options above. If these are somehow unacceptable to the vast majority of monks on these boards, or a third alternative exists ("give us more utility" is a minor point included in both I'd think), do say.It's fairly obvious we can't get both these options at once, but that's what specific specs are for.

Couching

02-07-2009, 03:16 AM

SoE really needs to learn of why WoW is so successful.In WoW, hybrid = 95% strength of profession classes and very useful.No matter how you spec your char, your char is useful.In EQ2, hybrid = sucks since we are only 70%-80% strength of profession classes.What the funny thing is, brawler is supposed to be dps fighter and we get worse crit, DA and aoe attack than supposed most defensive fighter, guardian.

Queen Alexandria

02-07-2009, 12:10 PM

I agree, something needs to be done.Couching is right. I hate when others refer to WoW for an example cause people take it as a flame. But this is a fair comparison. I've seen it first hand and it is very true. Someone needs to step up and take care of this issue.I only log in to check the broker recently... just not very motivated at all to touch anything cause I'd like to see improvements first. Can we get some sort of input from someone officially? Suggestions have been made, solutions have been posted and there is a clear consolidation of what most of us are worried about, yet it doesn't seem to have drawn any attention.Just want to be heard.

Zabjade

02-07-2009, 02:17 PM

When people ask for Tanks or DPS in channel, I'm never sure what I should go for.

circusgirl

02-08-2009, 01:55 PM

Another issue: plate tanks have access to 3% uncontested avoidance via adornments for their slashing weapons through the smoldering balanced ayr stone, but there is no equivalent tanking adornment that can be used by brawlers. The addittion of a main-hand only crushing adornment that reduced incoming damage by 3% would be the equivalent for brawlers.

Siatfallen

02-08-2009, 10:50 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Another issue: plate tanks have access to 3% uncontested avoidance via adornments for their slashing weapons through the smoldering balanced ayr stone, but there is no equivalent tanking adornment that can be used by brawlers. The addittion of a main-hand only crushing adornment that reduced incoming damage by 3% would be the equivalent for brawlers.</blockquote>Actually - and I'm guessing specifically because of this issue - a few select slashing weapons are available to brawlers at raid level. The fact that our epic is crushing (in both incarnations) means a decently geared level 80 monk will only use one of these adornments, typically not two.I'm not sure if this is actually a problem, then? Of course, the whole "Oh, slashing. Tank weapon then." Routine is a bit backwards.

jrolla777

02-09-2009, 02:03 AM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Another issue: plate tanks have access to 3% uncontested avoidance via adornments for their slashing weapons through the smoldering balanced ayr stone, but there is no equivalent tanking adornment that can be used by brawlers. The addittion of a main-hand only crushing adornment that reduced incoming damage by 3% would be the equivalent for brawlers.</blockquote>Actually - and I'm guessing specifically because of this issue - a few select slashing weapons are available to brawlers at raid level. The fact that our epic is crushing (in both incarnations) means a decently geared level 80 monk will only use one of these adornments, typically not two.I'm not sure if this is actually a problem, then? Of course, the whole "Oh, slashing. Tank weapon then." Routine is a bit backwards.</blockquote>I wold suggest an adornment for crushing weapons that increases defection chance by 1,2 or 3 %that way plate tanks can put a 3% riposte on thier main-hand and brawlers can put the riposte adorn on our offhand. Then a new crushing adorn that gives deflection (or damage reduction) can be put on our main-hand. That way all tanks can have 2 tankig adorns on their main and offhand (shields for plates ~1% block iirc)

circusgirl

02-09-2009, 03:14 AM

There's a slashing monk offhand weapon? What is it--I have yet to see anything better than the nightmare wraps. Honestly, what bothers me most is just an accumulation of little things, small itemization problems that are skewed in favor of plate tanks. The adornment thing is one, so is the problem with ward procs, etc.

JinjAB

02-09-2009, 07:17 AM

For Vinka - From Kluzen the ProtectoraITEM -1132458120 796668724:Knuckles of Blistering Blows/a

Siatfallen

02-09-2009, 08:54 AM

For DPS, Nightmare wraps is the best item I've seen in RoK (barring avatar loot no longer in the game). However, the knuckles linked above are good for tanking when adorned; they're also one item on a relatively small loot table, so if you still run VP on a regular basis, they're bound to drop sooner or later.Also, the following drops from Pentaclypse/Ultaclypse in Palace of the Ancient One:aITEM -1697554868 606710130:Void Knuckles/aI'm guessing it's also a damage upgrade over nightmare wraps, if only a small one.

circusgirl

02-09-2009, 03:15 PM

We still run VP fairly regularly, so I'll keep an eye out for those from Kluzen. It'll be a while before we hit Pentacolypse though, unfortunately.

Valenx

02-10-2009, 07:38 PM

I'm not surprised that after all of the posts us brawlers have made that not one single response has been made to us regarding our concerns...

circusgirl

02-10-2009, 08:39 PM

NAh--the devs only make posts when they have answers. Since our questions tend to be along the lines of "Why don't we have equal benefits for the same number of AA points spent" and there isn't a good answer to that question that doesn't involve them doing loads of extra work, they're probably not going to answer.

Turb

02-11-2009, 10:05 AM

Aeralik posted a reply to a thread in the monk forum yesterday.I nearly fell off my chair.

ShinGoku

02-11-2009, 10:23 AM

[Removed for Content] yeah, but thats his one post for the year.I took a screen shot and I'm seriously considering setting it as my wallpaper lol <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Queen Alexandria

02-12-2009, 06:53 PM

I finally found it, a post about Tsunami not working for PVP related purposes. Quite amazing! Devs have anything to say at all reguarding this list? Not even a bump to say they read it?

Endrian

02-14-2009, 06:31 PM

Im sick to see the devs have not got the guts to come post about this (whats new)thay moan when we dont give feedback and when we do this is how thay treat us by saying bugger allits starting to look like this game is going down hill fast.

Queen Alexandria

02-17-2009, 02:43 AM

You don't HAVE to play this game if you don't like it!11 /sarcasm off

Endrian

02-17-2009, 06:44 AM

<a href="../user/profile.m?user_id=18147">Zenaide</a> at what point in my post did i put i dont like the game this game is brill atm i just dont like the way its going

Mat

02-17-2009, 10:21 AM

Fully support everything that was listed here!And would like to give a thread a friendly bump <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Buttcliffe

02-17-2009, 11:55 PM

I just went through the whole thread.... Zero red name responses.Guess i should have guessed that; we're dealing with SOE and a brawler archetype here.Brawler's have been getting shafted from the onset, SOE's been ignoring glaring problems FOREVER (just so they can put more dev-hours into LoN)./sarc onQuality game with quality balance and quality dev team here./end sarc

Couching

02-19-2009, 10:39 AM

Monk <ul><li>Mongoose Stance has changed to improve the trigger chance of the monk’s stances.</li><li>Improved the damage of Combination</li><li>Improved Meditative Healing to heal up to 40%. </li></ul>It is the latest change on the test server.Finally, we get our TSO tanking aa on par with bruiser.It is still not useful for us in tanking heroic instances since threshold, 40% of our hp, is too high. But it gives moderate geared monk a chance to tank in raid.I know that a lot of monks even raiding monks decline to tank in raids.However, with the disparity of TSO aa and itemization between scouts and brawler, our dps is way behind rouge in TSO.This change is positive and it helps a lot for monk tanking: Less spike damage for us.

Panzzzzer

02-19-2009, 10:56 AM

FINALLY, Thank you for giving us a chance to be a viable MT candidate with this meditative healing AA revamp. It is now balanced with the corresponding bruiser AA & greatly increases our survivability to where it SHOULD BE.

Siatfallen

02-20-2009, 08:49 AM

Actually, I have to admit, I consider the Meditative Healing change extremely stupid.Sure, we're now better for tanking. What happened to that obscure DPS role of monks some of you may vaguely remember playing with as our main focus for the entirety of t7 and a good chunk of t8?Also... What exactly is the idea of having 6 tank classes in the game, when you know no raid is ever going to use that much?And finally: Okay... THis is a big help to monk survivability. Let's for a moment accept the inane idea that we should focus solely on tanking (because y'know, we can surely compete with the other purist ST tank (guardian) now)... So we get a huge buff, at 170+ AA. What exactly is this going to help us for the majority of the time in this game?

Couching

02-20-2009, 09:19 AM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, I have to admit, I consider the Meditative Healing change extremely stupid.Sure, we're now better for tanking. What happened to that obscure DPS role of monks some of you may vaguely remember playing with as our main focus for the entirety of t7 and a good chunk of t8?Also... What exactly is the idea of having 6 tank classes in the game, when you know no raid is ever going to use that much?And finally: Okay... THis is a big help to monk survivability. Let's for a moment accept the inane idea that we should focus solely on tanking (because y'know, we can surely compete with the other purist ST tank (guardian) now)... So we get a huge buff, at 170+ AA. What exactly is this going to help us for the majority of the time in this game?</blockquote>There is no room for monk to play dps role in raid due to the disparity of monk TSO aa and TSO itemization in raid.Most dps gear are scout and mage only.Also, there is no room for monk to be a raid wide buff bot due to our raid wide buff is nerfed significantly, over 30%+.Monk is enforced to tank in raid by developers.With this change, we can be adequate single target tank. Are we better than guardian? I don't think so.However, in some hard encounters, you need two tanks on named or 2 off tanks on adds.With this change, monk is a solid choice.Last, is this change going to help the majority of monks in this game? Imo, for raiding monks, yes, it's a big upgrade.For casual monks? No. That's the problem of monk Tso AAs. Most monk Tso AAs are for raid tanking, not for heroic instance.

ShinGoku

02-20-2009, 10:00 AM

Perhaps its just my perception but I used to enjoy the "illusion" of choice when playing my monk.Sure I could do some reasonable damage but I could also swoop in and tank it at the last minute. Honestly I feel that the choice for that is being taken away and that I'm being forced into only tanking.

Eugam

02-20-2009, 10:19 AM

What is the current monk dps in raids (off stance with a dps spot ) ?

BChizzle

02-21-2009, 12:17 PM

<cite>Eugam wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is the current monk dps in raids (off stance with a dps spot ) ?</blockquote>Around 10k dps or so.

Couching

02-21-2009, 01:04 PM

It's much lower than 10k.9k zw on palace trash is already a push for most raiding monks unless you are really well geared AND have good group setup.It's sad. Only monk forum n eq2flames has no parse thread and it's understandable why no body wants to post it.Even on bruiser forum, no body posted ZW on palace trash, just random single trash fight and the number isn't impressive.Brawler dps is pethatic comparing to some plate tanks.

Morrolan V

02-21-2009, 03:41 PM

Couch, your raids are going to be putting out much more DPS than mine, so it's hard for me to benchmark that 9K number.If you redline at 9K on palace trash, what's the raidwide dps and what are the assassins and rogues doing, zonewide?Thanks!

Couching

02-21-2009, 04:18 PM

I agree, it's not a standard for everyone since everyone has different raid setup.It's just a reply for Blanka's number 10k zw.In fact, most monks can't hit 9k not to say 10k even with most gear unless you have very good group setup.Moreover, because proc gear are bugged. Parse on palace trash = cheating as long as you have enough greater void bane gear.

BChizzle

02-21-2009, 05:34 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree, it's not a standard for everyone since everyone has different raid setup.It's just a reply for Blanka's number 10k zw.In fact, most monks can't hit 9k not to say 10k even with most gear unless you have very good group setup.Moreover, because proc gear are bugged. Parse on palace trash = cheating as long as you have enough greater void bane gear.</blockquote>With buffs pretty much any decently geared monk can do 10k. Our guard does 10k while tanking. He asked in a dps role what are monks doing and I gave him the correct answer.

Morrolan V

02-21-2009, 08:03 PM

Guys,The 10K number only has meaning if we know what the whole raid is parsing and what the scouts are parsing. The same monk, in the same group, doing the same thing, is going to see radically different numbers if the raid is parsing 100K vs. 175K.

Couching

02-21-2009, 08:26 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree, it's not a standard for everyone since everyone has different raid setup.It's just a reply for Blanka's number 10k zw.In fact, most monks can't hit 9k not to say 10k even with most gear unless you have very good group setup.Moreover, because proc gear are bugged. Parse on palace trash = cheating as long as you have enough greater void bane gear.</blockquote>With buffs pretty much any decently geared monk can do 10k. Our guard does 10k while tanking. He asked in a dps role what are monks doing and I gave him the correct answer.</blockquote>No, plate tanks do more dps while tanking if they have specific gear, not to say, he did 9.6k not 10k. He has posted his zw dps in guardian forum in eq2flames.The fact is, every fighter has the same auto attack damage table and most melee fighters have pretty much capped on melee crit, haste and DA [Removed for Content] decent gear in a stacked group.The really difference is how many proc gear you have and what group buff you get.

Mephetic

02-28-2009, 03:20 AM

Bump ^_^

Couching

02-28-2009, 03:27 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Single versus AOE is how threat is setup. In defensive stance with similar gear/buffs the fighter damage hierachy should still hold up. So if you want to label some class as offensive tank then you can but its not something I would really label any of them to begin with. They have their damage hierachy and I still think that stands if you compare all the tanks in defensive or all of them in offensive.Secondly, I changed the stances as Kiara mentioned to be in separate reuse groups so that secondary tanks can quickly switch into defensive stance if the primary tank goes down. So what stance secondary tanks use is really based on the requirements of the encounter.Lastly, this is the first part of trying to get people back into their core roles so to speak. Tanks take the brunt of it now but we realize other classes are doing high damage when they shouldn't be while some others don't have the utility to match their role. Some may even pick up new roles down the line. So while we are currently tweaking the fighters we do have things in mind for the others albeit probably not as dramatic as the fighters( at least I hope not ).</blockquote>What's the damage hierachy in your design intention?It is the question that every fighter was wondering and would like to know.For most players, brawler should out dps any plate tanks on single target and it's no more in TSO.Care to fix the problem for brawlers? Or is it changed?If brawlers can't deal more dps than plate tanks, it's time to give brawler higher survivability than plate tanks. (This was the excuse of why plate tanks have higher survivability than brawlers before TSO since brawler did more dps than plate tanks.)Moreover, you divided fighters to aoe and single target tanks.In your posts related to fighter revamp, you have stated clearly that aoe tanks have higher dps than single target tanks and single target tanks have higher survivability than aoe tanks.All the monks failed to see how we have higher survivability than so called aoe tanks, SK, zerker and bruiser.All what we have seen in TSO is the ridiculous AOE dps from sk and zerker, oh and ridiculous single target dps from sk AND they have better survivability than monk.Care to answer and fix this problem for monk?

Gungo

02-28-2009, 05:47 AM

<cite>Morrolan V wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guys,The 10K number only has meaning if we know what the whole raid is parsing and what the scouts are parsing. The same monk, in the same group, doing the same thing, is going to see radically different numbers if the raid is parsing 100K vs. 175K.</blockquote>for a brawler to parse 10k+ your guild should be 175k+ raid wide dps. Brawlers can go a bit higher, but like i said its kinda unrealistic to consider those parses as the standard. To answer your question though our raid has been around 200k in palace zone wides.Furthermore 10k+ zone wides people are talkign about is mostly palace trash. Which is the zone where anybody can pretend they parse well. Load up on void bane gear, get yourself the lycanthrope wrist from manor. Go in full dps gear and burn burn burn.

circusgirl

02-28-2009, 12:47 PM

To give a slightly more useful bit of parse info...I generally parse about sixth or seventh in our raids. The bruiser that sometimes comes with us is usually slightly higher than me, and the other monk is slightly lower.

Queen Alexandria

03-04-2009, 10:42 AM

Has a dev read this yet?

circusgirl

03-04-2009, 03:11 PM

Maybe. It does seem like they're listening to some of what we're saying (that is, the stuff coming from the tanking faction of monks--sorry Eilien). Our meditative healing got an upgrade, which we've been asking for, and the new x4 and x2 raidsets now have +mitigation increase on them (finally, a way for us to improve our mitigation since plate tanks can improve their avoidance!). No word yet on the 40% AE autoattack, which we still desperately need, or anything about the useless sta line, etc. but we're making progress.In the meantime though, some new issues for the list!1)the x2 boots, shoulders, and leggings all have +mitigation increase, but on the improved x4 sets, only the pants have +mitigation increase2)the 7-piece bonus (+8 mitigation increase) on the x2 set is significantly better (for tanking at least) than much of what we have on our x4 set. Could we perhaps replace the overstacked heal 4-piece bonus on the x4 set with this (the +8 mitigation increase)? When we get the various effects could be shuffled as neccessary.3)the 5 piece bonus (Nerve Grip) automatically detaunts us if we're behind the mob. The back of mob/front of mob distinction is more than enough for grouping, but for raiding it isn't quite right since as utility/off tanks we are often standing behind the mob dpsing until someone else drops or the mobs memwipe. Having the detaunt only work in offensive would be a great fix for this.

Queen Alexandria

03-04-2009, 10:48 PM

This is good news... my concern as a soloer has been getting the 40% AoE and a rework of the STA line.

circusgirl

03-05-2009, 12:50 PM

Unfortunately no word on either of those issues from the devs, except that Aerelik has implied pretty strongly that the 40% AE isn't going to happen because crane flock is so uber (yeah....right.)

Derang

03-07-2009, 05:47 PM

Id still love to see 40% ae auto attack + a dev tell us something about some of our aa's still!!! /feedback has been ignored, this post shall not!

Siatfallen

03-09-2009, 08:51 AM

I somewhat dread opening up this can of worms, because I see it growing very, very large very fast, but:I added a section called "Brawler Equipment Issues", following the addition of our new 5-set raid bonus. Since there does not seem to be a reasonable consensus about what to do with it, I've just remarked that it needs work.This, of course, opens up the possibility of criticism against the brawler/monk itemization in general, so I suspect I will be updating this thread again pretty soon, but for now I've left it at this one point.Edit: What's the consensus on meditative healing? I'd still like to see it adjusted to help all levels of play, not just raid tanks, but I suspect there'll be some serious problems if this is actually done, because it's pretty much our one-trick pony of anti-spike damage in a raid setting currently.Do we keep it on the list, or narrow that point to address only Inner Focus?Edit2: Mitigation bonuses on the x2 set: It comes with lower base mit. Is this unbalancing in its own right, or just and argument to run 1 on those pieces with the x4 set?And, 7-set bonus on the x2 set was nerfed into oblivion a day after it went to test. Sounds like the usual procedure when brawlers get something neat on test really. Dev fist EoF era anyone?Still, I guess it solves the issue, though not how we'd have liked it done.

circusgirl

03-09-2009, 02:16 PM

I'd like to see the mitigation bonuses moved to our x4 set. There are a lot of ways in game right now for plate tanks that are hitting the upper edge of the mitigation curve to improve their avoidance, both contested (+parry/+defense/shield bonus items are everywhere) and uncontested (on adornments, food, items, etc). Now that defensively specced raid monks are pushing 90% avoidance...well, we desperately need a way to improve our mit, and right now there just isn't any means by which to do so. +mitigation increase on our x3 and x4 raidset pieces and as a bonus for us would go a long way.Right now, both the 4 and 5 piece bonuses on our x4 raidset are useless. One of them needs to get replaced with the +8 mitigation bonus that was previously on the x3 raidset, and I'd suggest something either dps or surviveability oriented (NOT single-target hate!) like Enhance: Tsunami or +Combat Art Base Damage for the other.

Morrolan V

03-09-2009, 04:50 PM

Monk (and brawler) itemization is in a state of disarray. More to the point, brawlers as hybrid classes are suffering from "hybrid gear syndrome." Much of the brawler-oriented gear splits the baby between being tanking/defense oriented and enhancing DPS.In RoK, the direction seemed to be that the VP set gear was DPS oriented, and the lower tier brawler set gear was defense oriented.For the raid set in ToS, Fyreflyte has stated that each piece was supposed to be a direct upgrade from the VP gear. Looking purely from a DPS perspective, however, this is just not the case. Many, if not most, of the individual pieces of ToS raid set gear are inferior to, or at best no better than, the VP set gear for DPS.Examples:Gloves:VP: +40 Str/+7 Melee CritTSO: +40 Str/+5 MCHead:VP: +36 Str/+7 DATSO: +30 Str/+5 DA, +50 CABoots:VP: +64 Str/+7 MCTSO: +60 Str/+2 DA, +5 MCChest:VP/Trak: +64 Str, +7 DA, Focus Five Rings (+120 dmg)TSO: +20 Str, +4 DA, Focus Five Rings (+120 dmg)(As an aside on this commentary, [Removed for Content] is it with the TSO raid chest pieces? They are all REALLY weak - not just the monk set.)Set bonuses:VP: 2 piece bonus (+125 to dmg of dragonfire), 4 piece bonus (adds to effectiveness of offensive stance)TSO: 2 piece (same), 4 piece (focus heal)If you flipped this around and looked at it from a tanking/defensive perspective, the TSO gear is a lot better, piece for piece than the VP gear. It has critical mit, loads of + deflection, + parry and + defense, + riposte chance on the chest, + deflection chance on the shoulders, etc. So, what has happened? In lieu of increasing our DPS potential, the "improvements" are all in the direction of making us better tanks. Great - it's a welcome change to have more viability as tanks. That viability, however, should not come at the expense of upgraded DPS gear for TSO. The point has been made MANY times, but it's still true: Fighters represent 1/4 of the classses in the game, but tank slots represent only 1/6 to 1/12 of available group and raid slots. Even if brawlers can suddenly spec and gear up to raid tank level, which, frankly, remains to be seen after the LU51/52 changes, that does not suddenly mean there are more slots for raid tanks.This same hybridization problem is carried through the brawler shard gear, which is tank/defense heavy. Having the hybrid (Wasted Wilderness/Wilderness Warrior) gear helps, but there is no equivalent at the T4/raid level. Perhaps the best (or worst) example of this is the Void Gi of Sorrows from the Palace of the Ancient One. Who exactly would equip this and for what reason (other than in an appearance slot)? I will post screenshots later, but there are heroic Gi's that are better for DPS (Gi of the Jarsath Swiftail) AND tanking (Abandoned Gi of the Jin Drake). Why is this? Because it has mediocre DPS (+4 DA) and mediocre tanking (+5 Defense/Deflection).Hybrid classes are ill served by split the baby gear. Make us have two whole sets, by all means, but go full bore in each direction.

circusgirl

03-09-2009, 10:37 PM

Eilien--a few things in your original post seem to have been addressed. For example, combination is now doing more damage. Might be worth cleaning it up unless you're holding out for more.Superior Riposte would be much more viable if it was not dispelled by the use of a combat art.

Siatfallen

03-10-2009, 08:22 AM

<cite></cite>Vinka: Correct, something was done to combination. I kind of doubt it addresses the real issue with the AA (low DPS output) sufficiently, but it's been removed from the list, pending the next time someone looks at its actual efficiency. Going over the rest of the post, there's not a lot else to edit out that I caught, but thank you for catching that one. Do say if there's something else.Your suggestion for Superior Riposte is included in the post already, unless I misunderstand you?I'll log over to test and punch in some numbers regarding the mit gains from the x2 raid set, probably tomorrow. While I'd obviously like +mit on our x4 set, I want to make sure to request it based on an imbalance.Since +mitigation is something of a new effect, just to make sure I don't waste my time, can anyone confirm: It raises final mitigation (before the +mitigation effect obviously) by a set percentage?Does it apply before or after our mythical effect?Rythalian: I've added a point about the lack of desirability of the new x4 raid set. The rest of your point is certainly valid, but I'll just need to find a way to condense it into a coherent line, or possibly a few others - and I'm in a bit of a hurry just now. I'll definately get back to it.My immediate knee-jerk reaction would be to ask the devs to make the new x2 raid set a DPS focused set for both brawlers, but seeing how it's built on top of an already existing set, I count that unlikely - and I don't want to see the t2 shard set change to accomodate raiders; it's kind of important to those preferring the group level of play, which actually seems to get the most attention this expansion.

BChizzle

03-10-2009, 11:19 AM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Vinka: Correct, something was done to combination. I kind of doubt it addresses the real issue with the AA (low DPS output) sufficiently, but it's been removed from the list, pending the next time someone looks at its actual efficiency. Going over the rest of the post, there's not a lot else to edit out that I caught, but thank you for catching that one. Do say if there's something else.Your suggestion for Superior Riposte is included in the post already, unless I misunderstand you?I'll log over to test and punch in some numbers regarding the mit gains from the x2 raid set, probably tomorrow. While I'd obviously like +mit on our x4 set, I want to make sure to request it based on an imbalance.Since +mitigation is something of a new effect, just to make sure I don't waste my time, can anyone confirm: It raises final mitigation (before the +mitigation effect obviously) by a set percentage?Does it apply before or after our mythical effect?Rythalian: I've added a point about the lack of desirability of the new x4 raid set. The rest of your point is certainly valid, but I'll just need to find a way to condense it into a coherent line, or possibly a few others - and I'm in a bit of a hurry just now. I'll definately get back to it.My immediate knee-jerk reaction would be to ask the devs to make the new x2 raid set a DPS focused set for both brawlers, but seeing how it's built on top of an already existing set, I count that unlikely - and I don't want to see the t2 shard set change to accomodate raiders; it's kind of important to those preferring the group level of play, which actually seems to get the most attention this expansion.</blockquote>The problem is if you make the x2 a dps set is it really can't be one as you wouldn't wear it on anything that requires more crit mit. So they would be creating the x2 set as something we'd wear on trash mobs and thats about it. Thats a waste of time. The x2 set should be a balanced set for semi raiders, the x4 should be a large upgrade over the x2. Plus you can still have some appealing stuff on the x2 like the shoulders with base damage where it might be appealing to switch an item or 2 in, but you should never under any circumstance want to wear the x2 set over the x4.

circusgirl

03-10-2009, 03:45 PM

Eilien--I wouldn't suggest making the x2 set a dps-oriented set, for the simple reason that the x2 upgrade to the Wilderness Warrior set is dps oriented--in addition to the 8 combat art damage on the shoulders, there's also +4 combat art damage as the 3-piece bonus. The issue with this set is that (as I recall, been a while since I looked at it) one of the set bonuses is geared towards druids and one of the set bonuses is geared towards brawlers, with the end result that we functionally have one less set bonus on it.

Caethre

03-10-2009, 08:07 PM

<cite>Morrolan V wrote:</cite><blockquote>Monk (and brawler) itemization is in a state of disarray. More to the point, brawlers as hybrid classes are suffering from "hybrid gear syndrome." Much of the brawler-oriented gear splits the baby between being tanking/defense oriented and enhancing DPS.In RoK, the direction seemed to be that ... gear was DPS oriented ...[In TSO] ... In lieu of increasing our DPS potential, the "improvements" are all in the direction of making us better tanks.Hybrid classes are ill served by split the baby gear. Make us have two whole sets, by all means, but go full bore in each direction.</blockquote>These points are all good ones.In the ROK era, players (like me) who wanted to create DPS monks were well rewarded and encouraged with itemization for the class to suit our preferred style. This went for raiding and grouping monks alike. The role in groups (never mind raids) was 80%+ about our DPS, and only a small amount about tank support and offtanking.I absolutely loved playing my monk in the ROK era; it suited me perfectly to be a DPS-class parsing not that far behind the top-DPS classes with equivalent gear level in normal heroic groups. Getting groups as a DPS monk, groups that already contained a plate tank, was not hard at all.Now, in the TSO era, things have changed completely. All our new AP skills and gear is slanted toward tanking, but with very poor options for DPS increase. As a result, our DPS has fallen significantly compared to the scouts and mages, compared to our relative position during the ROK era. Of course, it is now rather better for "tanking monks", but what about those of us who, whilst happy to be a DPS character in any pickup group, would rather smack our heads against a wall repeatedly than accept a tank role in such groups?All of us know that players of monks are divided between those who love to (or prefer to) tank, and those who love to (or prefer to) dps, I know, and both styles have been encouraged (during different eras of the game) by SOE, and so both styles have significant numbers of adherents. I do not blame the players for this, because it appears to have been SOE's intention (or if not, it certainly has been the effect of the constant fluctuation in the itemization for the class in each tier).The single worst thing SOE can do is leave us in the middle, being not good enough for either role, at least in the perception of the playerbase.The best thing that they could do, is make both roles viable and competitive, but make each monk character make it's choice, via both AP and gear choices.I know this - if I could get back for Lorianna the same relative DPS compared to equivalently geared T1 DPS classes that she had in the ROK era, I would happily give up all this extra +deflection, +parry and the +taunt, in a heartbeat. There is just no route to achieving that at the moment with tier 8 monk itemization.How about giving those of us who play that way, the way you (SOE) encouraged, the option to continue to do so, and do so competively?