GU51 Berserker Issue List (updated march/4/09) [Archive]

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victer

01-30-2009, 05:47 PM

I'm going to try to make an easy to read list of problems with the current berserker design. Please keep your descriptive posts and your complaints to the other berserker threads. If you can think of something to add to this list I'll gladly add it. If you feel something is more / less important then I do, I'm also willing to take suggestions.<hr />Bug ReportThis will be a list of skills and effects used by the berserker that are currently not working as described in the description.<hr />High PriorityThese issues need attention a.s.a.p.<ul><li>Threat:<ul><li>Test server shows us at about 25% lower threat then everyone. A fair compensation would alow us about 25% more dammage over the other tanks while tanking but it is no where near that. Single target tanks can switch-taunt and generate more single and AE threat at a much lower power cost. All tanks in DStance will generate similar damage.</li></ul></li></ul><ul><li>Defensive Stance: <ul><li>The negative melee skills reduce our hit rate to something unacceptable. </li><li>The -0.5 melee damage modifier reduces the effectiveness of +hate gain effects. While also reduceing the effectivness of the class defining zerker AOE attack. </li><li>The auto-taunt portion of the stance procs on 25% of incoming melee attacks. Other fighters have a stronger taunt procing 55% or 100% of the time on ANY incoming attack. That is a very huge difference.</li><li>Aggression is the lowest of all fighters by a large margin.</li></ul></li></ul><ul><li>Offensive Stance: <ul><li>The +5% combat art damage is not effective for berserkers. We have one of the lowest combat art damage tables of all melee classes including all other tanks. </li><li>The damage proc is much weaker then the procs that are on the other fighters stances. For instance, the guardian proc rate is double the rate of our proc while also doing double the single target damage. </li></ul></li></ul><hr />Medium PriorityThese issues will cause a lot of people to complain and should be looked into.<ul><li>Blood Regeneration and Perseverance: Effectiveness of the skill diminishes with a higher tier of opponent. Works well for solo/duel... Underpowered for heroic .... Almost useless in raids.</li></ul><hr />Low PriorityThese issues need eventual attention but we can live with them as long as you attend the top 2 prioritys and bugs.<ul><li>Berserker AA Tree: <ul><li>Debilitation Line: The bonuses offered are for increased debuffs on our combat arts. Our combat arts are low debuffers. We have debuffs such as 14 haste and 19 slash/crush/peirce. Our AA's increase these numbers by a low % on a low number... = very low gains per AA spent. </li><li>Berserk: Our "clicky" zerk is less potent then our berserk from our skills.</li></ul></li></ul><ul><li>Vision of Madness: Does not guarantee a death prevention. If my group gets one shotted by a strong AE and i have this skill on everyone should be dead except for me but this doesn't happen all the time.</li></ul><ul><li>Raid AE Encounters: There still is not enough AE encounters in raids that will make us use our AE abilities to their fullest. If we are meant to be AoE encounter tanks and are receiving more and more AoE skills please give us more opportunities to use them!</li></ul><ul><li>TSO Berserker Tree: <ul><li>Jeering Onslaught: <ul><li>The skill currently requires a target to cast yet is classified as a "blue" AE. No other blue AE in the game requires a target. </li><li>You must also be within 5 meters of the mob which is less then the range of the skill.</li></ul></li><li>Wall of force: <ul><li>The UI does not show how many procs are left on the buff. </li><li>The duration is too short. Often the mob will not hit you hard enough during the 10 seconds for the proc to go off.</li></ul></li></ul></li><li>TSO Berserker Fabled Raid Set:<ul><li>Pants: <ul><li>The low power regen is not useful to a raid that can acquire these pants.</li></ul></li></ul></li></ul><hr />I will add/delete/edit this post as needed

victer

01-30-2009, 05:47 PM

This post is going to try and give suggestions to the original post. I will add everyone suggestions to mine.Each numbered suggested change is an individual suggestion. I do not expect to have all of the numbered suggestions changed at the same time.<hr />High Priority<ul><li>Threat:<ul><li>Test server shows us at about 25% lower threat then everyone. A fair compensation would alow us about 25% more dammage over the other tanks while tanking but it is no where near that. Single target tanks can switch-taunt and generate more single and AE threat at a much lower power cost. All tanks in DStance will generate similar damage.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Recalculate threat values.</li><li>Keep threat values the way they are but read below for Dstance adjustments to allow us a bigger DPS advantage while in Dstance. What is wrong with berserkers still relying on some of thier dammage for hate?</li></ol> <ul><li>Defensive Stance: <ul><li>The negative melee skills reduce our hit rate to something unacceptable. </li><li>The -0.5 melee damage modifier reduces the effectiveness of +hate gain effects. While also reduceing the effectivness of the class defining zerker AOE attack. </li><li>Aggression is lowest of all fighters by a large margin.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Remove the negative melee skills.</li><li>Change the melee modifier to something more reasonable. - 0.25 ?</li><li>Make it so that Hate mod effects taunts in this stance only.</li><li>Increase the Aggression amount to 25+.</li></ol><ul><li>Defensive Stance:<ul><li>The auto-taunt portion of the stance procs on 25% of incoming melee attacks. Other fighters have a stronger taunt procing 55% or 100% of the time on ANY incoming attack. That is a very huge difference.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Change the auto-taunt proc rate to 50%+.</li><li>Change the auto-taunt proc to proc off ANY incoming attack.</li></ol><ul><li>Offensive Stance:<ul><li>The +5% combat art damage is not effective for berserkers. We have one of the lowest combat art damage tables of all melee classes including all other tanks.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Change the +5% combat art damage to melee crit bonus instead.</li><li>Make it +25% combat art damage or more at least.</li></ol><ul><li>Offensive Stance:<ul><li>The damage proc is much weaker then the procs that are on the other fighters stances. For instance, the guardian proc rate is double the rate of our proc while also doing double the single target damage.</li></ul></li></ul>We are fully aware that our proc is encounter based. That still does not mean that other fighter should proc twice as often AND ALSO twice as hard. We agree that since our proc is encounter based their should be a slight improvement on other fighter procs if they are single target based procs. However we do not agree that it should hit harder AND more often.<ol><li>Increase the damage to be in line with other fighters.</li><li>Increase the proc rate to be in line with other fighters.</li></ol><ul><li>Offensive Stance:<ul><li>Insolence is not usable even though it has a damage portion.</li><li>The interrupt portion of Mock is not usable.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Make them usable without the taunt portion.</li></ol><hr />Medium Priority<ul><li>Blood Regeneration and Perseverance: Effectiveness of the skill diminishes with a higher tier of opponent. Works well for solo/duel... Underpowered for heroic .... Almost useless in raids.</li></ul><ol><li>The heal should be dependent on what is attacking you. If solo or pvp... If heroic... If epic.</li><li>The heal should be a % of the damage taken.</li><li>Increase the proc chance.</li><li>Change the proc to any damage taken not just melee attacks </li></ol><hr />Low Priority<ul><li>Berserker AA Tree:<ul><li>Debilitation Line: The bonuses offered are for increased debuffs on our combat arts. Our combat arts are low debuffers. We have debuffs such as 14 haste and 19 slash/crush/pierce. Our AA's increase these numbers by a low % on a low number... = very low gains per AA spent.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Add % damage to the AA's. We are the offensive warrior aren't we? </li></ol><ul><li>Berserker AA Tree:<ul><li>Berserk: Our "clicky" zerk is less potent then our berserk from our skills.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Change it to be as strong as the adept 3 version of the players current tier. Or Higher.</li></ol><ul><li>Vision of Madness: Does not guarantee a death prevention. If my group gets one shotted by a strong AE and i have this skill on everyone should be dead except for me but this doesn't happen all the time.</li></ul><ol><li>When we die this is supposed to heal us for 5 seconds. If you die before the 5 seconds expires you should not have to wait on the full recast duration.</li></ol><ul><li>Raid AE Encounters: There still is not enough AE encounters in raids that will make us use our AE abilities to their fullest. If we are meant to be AoE encounter tanks and are receiving more and more AoE skills please give us more opportunities to use them!</li></ul><ol><li>Add more AE encounters! And I'm not talking about the standard "Mob starts with 1 Name and 2 adds.... kill adds in 15 seconds move on to name.... get loot". We need more interesting fights that make us use our AE abilities to their fullest.</li></ol><ul><li>TSO Berserker Tree:<ul><li>Jeering Onslaught: The skill currently requires a target to cast yet is classified as a "blue" AE. No other blue AE in the game requires a target.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Should not require a target. Much like all other blue AEs in the game.</li></ol><ul><li>TSO Berserker Tree:<ul><li>Wall of force: <ul><li>The UI does not show how many procs are left on the buff. </li><li>The duration is too short. Often the mob will not hit you hard enough during the 10 seconds for the proc to go off.</li></ul></li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>The UI should show how many procs are left much like the way that Weapon Counter and Turmoil display the number of procs left.</li><li>Increase the duration to 15-20 seconds.</li></ol><ul><li>TSO Berserker Fabled Raid Set:<ul><li>Pants: <ul><li>The low power regen is not useful to a raid that can acquire these pants.</li></ul></li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Change the effect into something more suitable for a berserker's role. Some suggestions are:<ol><li>Increase the duration of all berserk effects.</li><li>Reduce the time of the mana drain after adrenaline.</li><li>Reduce the mana drain of adrenaline</li><li>More to come?</li></ol></li></ol><hr />I will change/edit/add to this post as needed.

Hylas60

01-31-2009, 04:32 AM

Might wanna add that our TSO Berserker Choice Adrenaline Rush states itll proc the taunt on any successful attack and in its current form on Test since i can see taunts in a chat window its only proccing off successful CAs

gundali

01-31-2009, 08:14 AM

Fantastic post, i hope that the Devs become aware of it.

Noaani

01-31-2009, 09:13 AM

<cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li>Jeering Onslaught: <ul><li>The skill currently requires a target to cast yet is classified as a "blue" AE. No other blue AE in the game requires a target. </li></ul></li></ul></blockquote> Didn't read your whole post, but this is not the only blue AE in the game that requires a target.

Bremer

01-31-2009, 12:54 PM

I think you should add to the list - Beserker def stance has the lowest aggression of all Fighters, some classes get two times more aggression on their def stance And our pathetic weak single target taunt hate generation should probably also be included in the list.

victer

01-31-2009, 08:17 PM

<cite>Hylas60 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Might wanna add that our TSO Berserker Choice Adrenaline Rush states itll proc the taunt on any successful attack and in its current form on Test since i can see taunts in a chat window its only proccing off successful CAs</blockquote>my testing showed it working off auto attacks but not twice on double attacks (working correctly) and it also works on melee CAs.<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think you should add to the list - Beserker def stance has the lowest aggression of all Fighters, some classes get two times more aggression on their def stance And our pathetic weak single target taunt hate generation should probably also be included in the list.</blockquote>Added this:<ul><li>Defensive Stance: <ul><li>Aggression is lowest of all fighters by a large margin.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Increase the Aggression amount to 25+.</li></ol>Also added:<ul><li>TSO Berserker Fabled Raid Set:<ul><li>Pants: <ul><li>The low power regen is not useful to a raid that can acquire these pants.</li></ul></li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Change the effect into something more suitable for a berserker's role. Some suggestions are:<ol><li>Increase the duration of all berserk effects.</li><li>Reduce the time of the mana drain after adrenaline.</li><li>Reduce the mana drain of adrenaline</li><li>More to come?</li></ol></li></ol>

01-31-2009, 11:01 PM

Offensive Stance buff should be Double Attack, not Melee Crit. I can hit 100%+ melee crit when we raid and we are only doing Tier 1 TSO. I am willing to sacrifice some hit rate for Double Attack.

victer

02-01-2009, 12:53 PM

i suggested crit bonus not mc

Obadiah

02-02-2009, 12:06 PM

Anyone find they are proccing Berserk less now that each stance has 1 fewer method for inducing it?Hard for me to tell because there's no log message. Feels like less, but it could be because I'm expecting to see less.Haven't done any raiding on Test, but in instances it seems like you might miss that "when striking a death blow" proc.

victer

02-26-2009, 02:46 PM

Removed the complaints about stance casting as what is now on test is acceptable.I still have 2 major concerns...- skills on d stance means that as a berserker i will be procing my berserk less because i am successfully hitting the mob less. Which also means that skills that require me to be in a berserk state are diminished. The major skill that im talking about is the best defensive skill in our arsenal.... adrenaline. For the effect to start we must be berserk. For the effect to actually do anything while it is on we have to be berserk. If our skills are reduced so low the chances us procing berserk to allow adrenaline to do its intended function goes down the drain. Something i may suggest is keep it so that you must be berserk to cast adrenaline but you are NOT required to stay in a berserk state to have the effect work the entire duration.second thing is the +5% combat art dammage on berserk procs in offensive stance. I will say it again. Berserkers do NOT get alot of dammage from thier combat arts. This 5% is doing very very minimal gains. Please change it to something more suitable. Suggestions? +0.25 melee modifier? +5% flurry? +8% crit BONUS (not normal crit)?

Elanjar

02-26-2009, 02:52 PM

I like that they unlinked the stances but honestly 1 min recast is overkill. All these extremes are freakin killing me. AnywayD-stance, they gotta get rid of the -skills or get rid of the damage reduction cause in d-stance were quite reliant on berserk and hate gain and that just dont happen when missing the mob.For o-stance I'd like to see a 5% flurry on our berserk proc. Since its on the proc i dont think it would be OP. However since that flurry would have to scale for all tiers it might have to be added via AA's. Personally I'd vote to have our hunker AA in the EoF tree be changed to add 1% flurry per point to o-stance berserk.

Obadiah

02-26-2009, 10:35 PM

WARNING: I don't usually rant ever since the Adrenaline debacle was taken care of, so I'm not very good at it, but here is why I think every Berserker should quit the game right now:There's a lot of your suggestions in the OP that would be great. But really right now there are some things on Test that are absolutely, critically, disgustingly broken with respect to Berserkers. It doesn't seem like they are getting any attention, because the last update MADE THEM ALL WORSE.Over the top Priority:Berserkers on Test have 25% lower TPS from taunts than anyone else. ST tanks have 50% more TPS on single targets, more on 2 targets if they cycle. They have THE SAME TPS from taunts on groups of 3 as Paladins and Guardians, who are single target tanks. There is NO difference in DPS to narrow this gap. It's simply ridiculous. Math is not that hard.High Priority:Intrusion goes from 1483-2624 on Live to 1116-1674 on Test. 32% overall reduction, 36% reduction to the top end.Bloodshower goes from 742-2063 on Live to 653-1214 on Test. 33% overall reduction, 70% reduction to the top end.Look .... I get the concept of reducing every Fighter's reliance on DPS. But here's the thing. We spent an entire expansion complaining that these very abilities took too long to cast, weren't worth casting, REDUCED our DPS, and eventually were removed from a lot of folks' hotbars. You listened [eventualy] and you reduced the casting time with TSO. Now ... you've undone all of that and made them not worth casting again except for the taunt one. And are these abilities overpowered? These are OUR ONLY TWO AoEs that do notable damage. The other 2 are taunts & position changers. Just like the other Fighter blue AoE reductions this was grossly uncalled for.Is it going to kill my ZW parse? No. That was already killed. But that's the point ... it's another unwarranted slap in the face. It takes these abilities from 2.7% of a ZW to 1.1%. What makes it even MORE of a slap in the face was the change that went along with it.......Cyclone will now improve threat instead of reducing resistibility.When I saw that, I thought "Great, that will edge us closer to the other tanks! Wonder how much more the taunts are now!" But .... here's the rub .... they were first DECREASED by as much as 18% (some as little as 3%, like Mock, which is already the lowest ST taunt in the game) And oh by the way they are 5% more likely to be resisted since that part of the AA is gone and our Aggression (as masters of unbridled aggression) remains lower than everyone else's. The Adrenaline AA that adds hate on a melee attack was reduced by 12%. YOU REDUCED ALL OF THE TAUNTS SO THAT TAKING THIS OPTION NETTED ALMOST THE SAME RESULTS!Since it's somewhat mandatory to take this just to stay within 25% of the other tanks, we have to go down the Cyclone line .... meaning we HAVE to take the AA choices to increase the damage on the blue AoEs .... AA choices that otherwise would now be totally ignored because you NERFED THE CRAP out of those abilities. And since you took out the resistability portion so that in addition to having the lowest taunts of all Fighters we are guaranteed to have the lowest HIT RATE of taunts of all Fighters. Goes nicely with our low melee hit rates.Medium Priority:Offensive Stance went from 8% increase to CAs to 4.9% increase to CAs. Not that anyone cares because our CAs don't do much, but the fact that it was [like the blue AoEs] unwarranted is annoying. A sporadic 8% increase in our CA damage on the Berserk proc would net a less than 1.5% increase in overall DPS ***IF*** you somehow managed to capitalize on it and ast all your CAs during the magic window. So reducing that measly buff by 3% is mildly annoying, at best.Low Priority, but annoying:Perseverance: Like I said several times on Test via /bug and /Feedback before it went live, and on the forums .... This ability does not act like an "until canceled" buff. You made it an until canceled buff, but the icon doesn't gray out in the hotbar, and it doesn't toggle (not that there's a reason to want to toggle it, or turn it off for that matter so it was sort of senseless changing it in that sense). It DOES, however, gray out the icon if you r-click and cancel it out of the Maintained Spell window or Spell Effects. So then it's NOT up and yet it's gray in the hotbar. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9293feeb0183c67ea1ea8c52f0dbaf8c.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" />I canceled my account over the changes on 2/18 because they were an unnecessary piling on of nerfs specifically to Berserkers who had already been significantly snipped. I was content-but-not-thrilled before 2/18, but those changes and the realization that our taunts are 25% lower than the next weakest TPS tank were just too much. I wasn't clear enough on my exit surveys, so they probably assume it was the proc changes. But this is hornswaggle.

Gisallo

02-26-2009, 11:28 PM

Well I agree with much of your list BUT I have an "insider" with a direct line into SOE/EQ2 who finally told me something (he was being WAY quiet until now). According to him fighter 2.0 is being pushed back to LU52 IF it ever goes live at all. Apparently the change in devs is having an unpublicized, but profound, effect of the figther revamp. They appear to be trying to see if they can actually MAKE it work now rather than just trying to FORCE it to work with a sledge hammer. The public outcry appears to have not fallen entirely on deaf ears, so we may see some sort of compromise, though this is not confirmed. LU 51 apparently has a tenative release date in March and they will not have whatever fighter 2.0 may or may not be ready by then so we get to wait some more it appears.

Obadiah

02-27-2009, 05:08 PM

Well that would be ... interesting.There are portions of it that need to be done at some point, IMO. Aggression should mean something (even though we're lacking in it) Taunts should be more worthwhile somehow (although not, maybe, as crazy worthwhile as some have been).Even though I've canceled, there's plenty of time for my mind to be changed as I don't expire until July. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> But if these go live as they are I don't see why I'd stay.Low Priority, but REALLY annoying because it's been pointed out so many times in so many ways now:The Agressor: This is our suffix title for TSO AA. It's not an English word. Dutch, Estonian, Portuguese, maybe. A French Heavy Metal band, perhaps. It should have two 'g's. This wouldn't be AS annoying were it not for calling us the Agressor yet sticking us with the LOWEST AGGRESSION SCORE. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Elanjar

02-28-2009, 06:00 PM

Nerfing our blues is completely unneccessary. With a 1.5s cast time I still barely use them. Pretty much just bloodshower for the knockback and to hit mobs behind me. And its not like they did that high of damage. Overall they're pretty weak and take forever to come back up.

Obadiah

03-02-2009, 06:05 PM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nerfing our blues is completely unneccessary. With a 1.5s cast time I still barely use them. Pretty much just bloodshower for the knockback and to hit mobs behind me. And its not like they did that high of damage. Overall they're pretty weak and take forever to come back up.</blockquote>As an added, triple insult, you pretty much HAVE to use Bloodshower, even on singles, because the taunt portion is larger than that of any other just plain "taunt". So ... here's this ability ... takes too long to cast so it delays your autoattack ... they were kind enough to reduce it ... now we spend AA to increase it by 25% ... then they reduce it by 36% but make it our largest taunt ST or AE and force us to use it.And don't think we're getting away without using our largest taunt, because ... and maybe I mentioned this ... we have the lowest taunts and lowest Aggression of all Fighters. We were told that ST and AE tanks each would be ABLE to handle the other type of encounter, but would be less efficient because of relying on longer recast, longer cast, more power, etc. abilities, but instead our 5 main taunts or taunt + CAs (Mock, Bellow, War Pledge, Trample, and .. yes ... Bloodshower) add up to juuuuuust barely over the TPS of the Guardian/Paladin ST taunts alone (2349 to 2101 and 2236 respectively). But don't worry. . . we make it back up on groups of three mobs where we can generate 2200 TPS from taunts while they can only do ... um ... 2100.At least they are responding to feedback and making adjustments. That's why with the last round of changes they ... um ... reduced the damage done by our blue AoEs and reduced all our taunt values by 3 to 18%?But the sky is not falling. It's all good. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /> Anyone seen Erik the Viking?

DMIstar

03-02-2009, 06:45 PM

Very Well laid out post, Hope this gets the attention/response it needs.

Elanjar

03-03-2009, 04:50 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>As an added, triple insult, you pretty much HAVE to use Bloodshower, even on singles, because the taunt portion is larger than that of any other just plain "taunt". So ... here's this ability ... takes too long to cast so it delays your autoattack ... they were kind enough to reduce it ... now we spend AA to increase it by 25% ... then they reduce it by 36% but make it our largest taunt ST or AE and force us to use it.And don't think we're getting away without using our largest taunt, because ... and maybe I mentioned this ... we have the lowest taunts and lowest Aggression of all Fighters. We were told that ST and AE tanks each would be ABLE to handle the other type of encounter, but would be less efficient because of relying on longer recast, longer cast, more power, etc. abilities, but instead our 5 main taunts or taunt + CAs (Mock, Bellow, War Pledge, Trample, and .. yes ... Bloodshower) add up to juuuuuust barely over the TPS of the Guardian/Paladin ST taunts alone (2349 to 2101 and 2236 respectively). But don't worry. . . we make it back up on groups of three mobs where we can generate 2200 TPS from taunts while they can only do ... um ... 2100.At least they are responding to feedback and making adjustments. That's why with the last round of changes they ... um ... reduced the damage done by our blue AoEs and reduced all our taunt values by 3 to 18%?But the sky is not falling. It's all good. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /> Anyone seen Erik the Viking?</blockquote>Not to mention our blues are a complete waste to cast on ST especially while soloing or in weird groups because its a huge power waste.And ya the sky isn't falling... that just cause the zerker got banished to hell.

victer

03-04-2009, 02:57 PM

Trying to add Kurgan's complaints to the list but i may need a better way to describe it but ill add this in the meantime...<ul><li>Threat:<ul><li>Test server shows us at about 25% lower threat then everyone. A fair compensation would alow us about 25% more dammage over the other tanks while tanking but it is no where near that. Single target tanks can switch-taunt and generate more single and AE threat at a much lower power cost. All tanks in DStance will generate similar damage.</li></ul></li></ul><ol><li>Recalculate threat values.</li><li>Keep threat values the way they are but read below for Dstance adjustments to allow us a bigger DPS advantage while in Dstance. What is wrong with berserkers still relying on some of thier dammage for hate? </li></ol>

Obadiah

03-05-2009, 03:54 PM

It still doesn't sound right to me without my whining, hissyfit tone and use of the word Hornswaggle.By the way, notice what stat is NOT anywhere on the Lavastorm set?+Agression [sic] <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

Grimmly

03-06-2009, 07:36 PM

I think we a zerkers need to continue to bring these items to Development's attention. That is the only way we can hopefully prevent our class from becoming obsolete like it did in EoF and RoK.

demonwr

03-06-2009, 10:41 PM

very good post i agree 100% would def like to see the armor sets making up some of the diferance in skills bonuses more than thay are while in def stance

victer

03-07-2009, 02:05 PM

now that is something i do NOT want to see.I dont want them to think they can deal with issues by makeing adjustments to gear.I want the the class to work on its own. Not to work only if you have certain gear.

Aull

03-07-2009, 02:18 PM

<cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>now that is something i do NOT want to see.I dont want them to think they can deal with issues by makeing adjustments to gear.I want the the class to work on its own. Not to work only if you have certain gear.</blockquote>Amen. Gear shouldn't be what saves a class. It should be figured from the core of the class and not from a gear standpoint.

LygerT

03-07-2009, 05:34 PM

yea well, it's all been ignored in just about every update that has been on test, i don't know why they will just now start reading these threads. zerks on test at the moment are pethetic sacks of crap.i agree with most of the red except for offensive stance, tanks don't need to be more offensive than they were just so long as other tanks didn't get bumped up then this is fine. i also agree with the blue, the heals are too weak with no way to modify them and perseverence doesn't do enough for the AA cost to get it even though our EoF tree sucks i had hoped this would have been a little better than i saw it turning out to be which is a hardly noticable ability that if i drop it right now i wouldn't even tell i had it.problem with warriors healing though is if you give us ways to increase heals then guards also should have something at a starting level to compensate, our heals are payment for the useless in combat health regen ticks every 6 seconds but even still as it sits the health incoming is about the same as it was back then and just as often. maybe that was their intention but with what i see on test with us drawing the short end of the stick on AE hate, AE DPS and survivability then something needs to give. everything is about choices and i honestly don't want to continue to see us all at the same level of survivability, DPS and aggro. i always rolled this toon to do more damage while taking more damage but if nothing else changes then whatever, make us all even on the survivability table then.

demonwr

03-07-2009, 06:00 PM

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>now that is something i do NOT want to see.I dont want them to think they can deal with issues by makeing adjustments to gear.I want the the class to work on its own. Not to work only if you have certain gear.</blockquote>Amen. Gear shouldn't be what saves a class. It should be figured from the core of the class and not from a gear standpoint.</blockquote>im not syaing we dont need to be brought in line with the other fighters in the area of agression 1st. but from a standpoint of of going from heroic instances fighting yellow con mob to going into raids and fightng aginst level 86-88 orange con there gear we get moving to those raids should be what makes make the diferance so you have a level of progresson with obtaining gear and moving to higher content

ZerkerDwarf

03-08-2009, 10:31 AM

Beside the fact that we as offensive tanks are seemingly not wanted to hit anything in def stance (for years now):Vision of Madness is a total junk. Make it a Bloodletter.Never understood the behaviour of Perseverance. What is it good for? Soloing a heroic named that kills you at 2% and enabling this mega spell makes you win the fight with 1% hp left? Can't imagine of any other situation this junk could be good for. Totally useless on raids, and useless in 99% of all heroic group fights.

Kunaak

03-08-2009, 01:47 PM

if you wanna see how truely badly we are about to be screwed over.get on the test server. make a gaurdian, run to the buff bot, get L80 + 200AA, clear all hotbars, sort the skills out in your skill list, and examine them one by one, compared to your berserker.you'll be alittle shocked.90% of a gaurdians CA's have some HUGE threat increase attached to it, yet for a berserker - only 1 does (If I recall right)the Guardians defensive and offensive stances have a proc damage on it that procs twice as much as ours, and about 50% more damage.thier threat on single taunts is insane, while ours is a pitiful 2-3k still.this is so insanely unfair, yet so incredibly frustrating cause the devs honestly seem to not care one bit, since feedback time and time again, always seems to lead to a dead end. further gimping the berserker, making gaurdians have ten times more threat then any other class.... without even having to try.now its to the point, were if a person playing a guardian can use a mouse, they will never lose aggro, dirge or not. cause every single thing they do have massive amounts of threat attached to it.

LygerT

03-09-2009, 03:12 PM

yea well, tomorrow i think a fair amount of zerks will start to see it like i saw it, few weeks down the road the cancellations and rerolling will come.

demonwr

03-09-2009, 04:33 PM

would also note the tso aa witch adds hate to adrenalin will be almost pointless vrs orage mobs since we cant hit them anyway withough are hit rates being fixed vrs orange con.i dont mind a reducion to all fighter dps but we still need to be balance in dps as fighters some classes of fighters where intended to be more relaint on dps for there hate as a core roll zerkers being one of the main fighters with that view. plz keep this in mind when bringing fighters back to there core rolls ares was the offencive in your face aoe tank. many zerkers will be poorly upset and probly quit the game if some aspect of this veiw of the zerker isnt retained. and to pointout that soe had this view even if aerlick dosnt see it what is every zerker givin when that toon is rolled it isnt a sword and shild it is 2 big mean damage dealing axes on the starting island.

Elanjar

03-09-2009, 04:33 PM

This update has made fighters less balanced than they were in RoK. With the exception of some guard hate issues I think TSO is the most balanced they've been since i can remember.They can keep some of the hate changes, but all these needless stance/damage nerfs are unneccessary.

Bruener

03-09-2009, 06:14 PM

Yeah, this is sad. Back to the Guard being the easy choice for tank. And my question is if these Single Target tanks can put out just as much hate on up to 3 mobs, than why would you even have an AE tank as an OT? ST = MT and ST = OT.

LygerT

03-10-2009, 03:21 PM

because we [Removed for Content] in their cheerios by actually wanting to be slightly better than we were. now that most of us are worn out trying to get the playing field evened out it's really going downhill. the hate zerks put out on test is a joke compared to the other tanks but now even the single target tanks are getting more AE hate and still have better survivability with less to no penalty.i haven't seen an ounce of initiative from any change on test that the devs think there is anything wrong with this class. once it hits and people do speak up, if they have the energy to once again, it will fall on deaf ears because they think we just like to complain even when most of the complaints had a solid footing on their argument. i saw it coming and honestly i don't want to waste another day on a character that will clearly be at the bottom of the plate tank food chain. that doesn't mean i want to be overpowered but i do want to see some resemblance of balance, i'm personally fine with my survivability vs guards though i think the heroic content has hurt them versus us in desirability. i'm pretty sure everyone knows how i feel mainly about SKs, which is the main contributor to the imbalance but i haven't been able to compare on test yet since it's usually still pretty dead.

Idako

03-11-2009, 01:00 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, this is sad. Back to the Guard being the easy choice for tank. And my question is if these Single Target tanks can put out just as much hate on up to 3 mobs, than why would you even have an AE tank as an OT? ST = MT and ST = OT.</blockquote>yeah... sad but true. The whole thing makes no logical sense... I mean just look at our stances (assuming they haven't changed since my last test log a few weeks ago)Here's what is it says:Oh look your melee is now worse... wait, here lets make it better on the same buff. ( - melee multiplyer, and 25dps/as on the same buff)Lets say I'm a healer it would say:Hey we're making your heals take 10% longer to cast/reuse/recover but we'll go ahead and improve the heal amount by 10%....I fear the worst will come from this and the 6 remaining zerks in game will all re-role conjys because even summoners will be less broken then them.

LygerT

03-11-2009, 03:05 PM

necro, LIFEBURN INC!i like to contribute to some form of a raid's success in some way so i am working on my defiler now.

Gisallo

03-11-2009, 04:10 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>necro, LIFEBURN INC!i like to contribute to some form of a raid's success in some way so i am working on my defiler now.</blockquote>Lyger as soon as Aeralik said "no changes everything is written in stone" is when I started leveling my Mystic. I was just 2 updates from having my Zerker mythical. I stopped. I now will likely have my Mystic's mythical this week. My zerker will not be deleated but he will slowly fall behind because I will only use him as a tank of last resort. I mean seriously. My guild has a Mythicaled Pally a mythical SK and a mythicalled Guardian. I would have actually contributed to something yesterday, but tomorrow I will be worse off than any other class in the game when it comes to the ONE job that I will be able to do. I guess thats what angers me the most. We keep being told that we are going to become one trick ponies. Fine then let me have a change of doing that one trick as well as the other tanks. Its not happening though because they just want to cut and paste changes on all of the classes without looking at the fact that every tank has different modifiers that react differently.

LygerT

03-12-2009, 05:18 PM

the perception of balance was never a true one anyways. casual guardians who do heroic zones every day and do not raid probably really feel shafted because of how much work they have to do but funny that both single target tank and AE tank zerk both want what the SK got in TSO, just there is so few skilled SKs that you don't see many people throwing comparisons out there yet.while i hate to see any class get nerfed after having been the underdog for years, i do want there to be that form of balance at some point. there was some good changes made to tanks on test, i would honestly rather see a mix of what is on test and what is on live so you get the best of both worlds which is tanks who actually choose to tank defensively because they can actually hold aggro whike doing it and those tanks who want to tank offensively with less survivability and more work involved to make the zone go quicker.my ideals are simple, balance the AE tanks and let all tanks keep their offensive ability but add in the ability to taunt to actually hold aggro while defensive. the big question is, how close of a balance can really be achieved. the only question that would leave to remain would be if there should be some small hate transfers still be allowed to keep offensive tanking viable, or increase hate gain in the KOS tree which i think is the easier method. increase hate gain by about 20% with max points and adjust taunt levels from there in defensive.course i never wanted to give up playing my zerk which is why i continue to campaign on this but i won't continue to gear out a character that if the changes on test go live will break the class or have to continue to fight with overpowered classes on live making me look like a poorly skilled player.

Elanjar

03-12-2009, 05:32 PM

The KoS tree doesnt even give hate gain anymore. They changed that so you couldnt counteract the hate penalties in offensive through AA's. The KoS tree increases taunt amount and taunt crit last time I checked. No hate gain modifiers.

LygerT

03-13-2009, 02:55 PM

i still would rather just see defensive tanking viable instead of forced and the classes still a little better balanced. i might change my mind about some things but those are 2 things i wouldn't. no one wants to be second best by default in their respective area and being able to change up in the case your group makeup sucks or your healer is weak or to just make aggro easier while tanking then you would switch to defensive, problem solved about tanks doing more dps than dps classes in group settings by simply giving them another tanking choice that works as well or better than the current way tanking/aggro works.

Kain-UK

03-13-2009, 03:02 PM

I have to say...After having been on test and playing around a bit... I -like- the offensive stance changes. I take more damage and dish out more... personally, I enjoy that because I can whip out 2 weapons, sack off some survivability and turn into a blender. I'm a sick person who enjoys being a plate-wearing blender. :pI hate the defensive stance changes. Holding aggro through taunts is all well and good, but we need to be able to -hit- the [Removed for Content] mobs too! I don't want to just be a taunt bot. I would like to do a little DPS (i'm not talking the same as scouts and mages, would just like to do more for my group than sit there hitting taunts and any CA with +threat), but not rely on it to hold aggro... like I currently do on live.Right now, my zerker on live has been mothballed, dug out only when absolutely necessary. I'm currently working on a Conjy and Defiler (65 and 77 respectivley).EDIT: Oh, and for christs sake, if we are going to be taunt bots, then let's remove the taunt-resist mechanic, eh? The amount of times my M1 and M2 taunts are resisted in defensive stance vs yellow con or higher mobs is INSANE... and Rescue should never, ever, ever be resisted! (and it has on my toon)

LygerT

03-13-2009, 03:05 PM

on test with no transfers and no taunts at all, you will have little chance of really holding aggro in a group though. taunts should still be allowed just on a lesser scale than in defensive.

Kain-UK

03-13-2009, 03:15 PM

Yeah, I had figured that if I was using Offensive stance.Another issue I found is that, using Defensive stance, tanks in a raid were taking aggro if they were using NO stance at all (so the penatly of O stance that removes all threat increases wasn't in effect). Can only spam taunts so fast to keep at the top of the hate meter, but the DPS they do, coupled with the fact that having no stance means you dont get a -hate mod was causing problems... because I could barely hit mobs to damage them and then my DPS sucked anyways.

LygerT

03-13-2009, 03:38 PM

you will find that is how most top end tanks would roll if these changes went through as is. sure you don't get to use your buffs but you can taunt with the efficiency of defensive and not take the damage hit from the offensive stance, although you lose out on your small chunk of avoidance and C/S/P skill bonus. the whole way things look on test still leaves no desired direction aside from the one that seems the most illogical which is tanking buffless/stanceless and in a pinch you can switch to defensive in less than a second, but if you start out in a stance you are locked to it.

Obadiah

03-16-2009, 04:00 PM

I've had nothing more to play with on Test since nothing has changed. So I was looking at how screwed we are again. You know what strikes me as funny?Shadowknights have a 300-post thread stemming from the nerf to their AoE abilities that took place on 2/18; i.e. the same date that our blue AoE abilities were nerfed. 300 pages about them being reduced by "as much as 27%". Our nerf that same day was casually mentioned a few places.If you look at the DPS generated by those abilities vs. the DPS generated by the Berserker abilities, it's about 972 DPS (assuming groups of 4) for the listed SK abilities on live and 350 DPS for the Berserker abilities. (SK numbers are based on the numbers reported by the OP in that thread.)It's now about 920 DPS on groups of 4 for the SK abilities. It's about 235 DPS on Test for the Berserker abilities.Regardless of the size of the group, the percentage change in DPS from before and after is the same. 33% overall reduction to ours, 5% overall reduction to theirs. And ours were obviously substantially lower to begin with. And at the same time they were reducing all Berserker taunts which were already by far the lowest of all Fighters. Yet somehow the outcry from that 2/18 set of changes was "Thanks a lot Berserkers for whining enough to get SK's nerfed."So really I guess my question is: Is math even taught in schools anymore? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Elanjar

03-16-2009, 04:14 PM

I'm still waiting for someone to give me a valid reason for why tanks being able to do decent damage is a detriment to gameplay. (and no, "its not fair" is not a valid reason)Its not like were stealing raid spots or even group spots for that matter.Were not doing outrageous T1 dps....anyone have a reason?

Windowlicker

03-16-2009, 04:33 PM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Were not doing outrageous T1 dps.</blockquote>In some cases, tank DPS is too high. In others, not so much. I personally never want to hear of a plate tank hitting 15k dps again.

Obadiah

03-16-2009, 04:49 PM

The overall reduction in my DPS when tanking doesn't bother me much. The only thing that bothers me about it is that it's not getting "put in" somewhere else. So the epic updates for alts in heroic zones I helped with last week, in groups of 3 or 4 where I accounted for half or more of the DPS .... I will never do it again if I have to do it in Defensive Stance. The Crucible run last night where I was 33% of the group's DPS? Took about an hour ... So now it will take 80-90 minutes? No thanks.Raids? No big. Overall that's not a big hit to the raid DPS. I actually LIKE the part where when I am OTing I can now DPS freely without worrying about ripping aggro. No more holding back now, perhaps. IMO it adds variety. Some days I am a tank, some days I am DPS. When I play my Necro I am DPS. When I play my Swash I am DPS. When I play my Defiler I am a healer.Might actually save a tank spec and flop between that and a DPS spec as opposed to always having the same thing.But ... reducing smallish AoEs more than anyone else's, giving us the most resistable taunts AND weakest taunts by a mile, putting NO Aggression on the x2 set gear presumably because Guardians don't need it, keeping everything still 1 tank or 1 mob-per-tank on most raid fights meaning ST tanks are your best bet for OT as well as MT because their TPS is tops, keeping our raid/group utility among the worst, yeah that all bugs me a bit just because when you roll it all together you get a big, steaming pile.Plate Scouts FTL.

Elanjar

03-16-2009, 05:03 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Were not doing outrageous T1 dps.</blockquote>In some cases, tank DPS is too high. In others, not so much. I personally never want to hear of a plate tank hitting 15k dps again.</blockquote>Anyone know a zerk that consistently does 15k in a non stacked group, not wearing scout gear not on an 8 mob encounter that lasts 10 seconds?

Obadiah

03-16-2009, 05:05 PM

LygerT

03-17-2009, 02:29 PM

i don't think there is a problem as is, but some tanks can do more dps than us so i do somewhat see the problem of whiney DPS classes.i do also see the problem from the other side of it, 2 nights ago i ran halls of the fallen in a pickup group, if we ran into a group of 5 mobs the group DPS would be about 10k, with me doing 8k of it. if there was 2 mobs the group dps would be 6k with me doing 3k of it... people who roll dps classes will have to learn to actually DPS, otherwise pickup groups and anyone who is even remotely slack at DPS will be listed as so and will be shunned from groups, because if you no longer can pull your weight, then you're out. that run was on live, it took almost 3 hours to get to the final named and we couldn't kill it, that was all with me pulling the group along doing about 75% of the groups DPS, we wouldn't have even been able to kill the first named or maybe even died too many times on trash due to no power due to long fights to even get to the first named.i haven't really had a chance to see if no stance tanking works well enough to get by, that is about your only option in situations like that.

victer

03-17-2009, 02:48 PM

i think that was one of the main problems that started this whole tanking revamp where tanks arent supposed to do dammage.In instance zones if i pickup a bunch of people out of guild who are not fully mastered or have alot of good raid gear im definety going to smoke them all on the parse because ..... duhh..... im geared WAY better then they are. These people then turn around and start complaining on the forums saying "zomg tank x was doubleing my parse and im a dps class [Removed for Content]?!?"I'll tell you right now with 100% certainty if i make a group of properly geared/skill players from my guild and make the exact same group makeup guess what? i will be just above the bard and healers and below everyone else. That is exaclty like it should be but the only scenario that devs are looking at is the wizard and assasin parseing 3k in the pickup grp with the tank parseing 6k+.And you better belive that zones are going to take longer and be more tough with these "no tank dammage" changes espectially for pickup grps. You can bet your behind that i will not pickup any old person to do the tougher zones. I will wait untill my top parseing guildys log in to do it. Where as right now i know i can help make the zone easier and i can invite my buddys alt or some random pickup dude from the public channels and still be successfull. With the tank changes the only zones i will be doing with pickup people are the very very easy ones.

victer

03-17-2009, 03:00 PM

To the tanks that complain that they cant hold agro off mythical players who parse high and are excited to get these changes i only have one thing to say..... why should a legendary/heroic geared tank be able to hold agro against a mythical/raid geared DPS class?If that changes go live as is the only tanks it that this will actually help is the tanks that are not very good players. All of the tanks that are currently doing fine are going to be very bored. If i already do enough agro to keep mobs on me why do i need MORE agro?

Gisallo

03-17-2009, 03:21 PM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm still waiting for someone to give me a valid reason for why tanks being able to do decent damage is a detriment to gameplay. (and no, "its not fair" is not a valid reason)Its not like were stealing raid spots or even group spots for that matter.Were not doing outrageous T1 dps....anyone have a reason?</blockquote>Because they can't. The people that are having the issues, for the most part, are tanks who have issues tanking or dpsers who have issues dps.Does my zerker beat and equally geared AND played Brigand or wizzie etc. on the parse? Nope. Have I done it? Heck yeah. Why? BEcause the person behind the keyboard on the dpser didn't know how to play their character. I do to an extent feel for the tanks who are complaining. More people than we thought have mythicals now. People bought them for plat, others got them because the Alts of the top raid guilds are organizing PUG raids to get their alts mythed out because the "main" guild is progressing through TSO. So if you are a tank who is having trouble holding aggro off of that mythed Ranger I feel for ya BUT thats the way it should be. Same with dps. I feel for the Brigand or swashie who doesn't have their myth when the mythed Zerker or SK (whatever) beats them on the parse, BUT with your fabled min hand and legendary off hand? you should be losing too.I'm waiting for someone to scream in a PUG about my mystic next. I often see a PUG dpser pulling around 1200 to 2000 dps. Last night just messing around in an instance we got to a named. I had just gotten my mythical not an hour before. I popped spirit tap and then just burned as best I could. Kept the group standing an was in that range for dps (still have a bit to learn about using the clicky). As I said I am waiting for the complaint. The dpser isn't going to care I have a mythical, that it procs melee double attack and for 30 seconds heals the group for me as long a we are beating the mob enough. They are just going to see the parse and scream "not fair". IF they were to look at the parse and ask why though they would become a better player and beat me next time around. Rather than using the parse as a tool to learn though and become a better player they use the parse as something to point at and cry.

victer

03-17-2009, 07:38 PM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Were not doing outrageous T1 dps.</blockquote>In some cases, tank DPS is too high. In others, not so much. I personally never want to hear of a plate tank hitting 15k dps again.</blockquote>Anyone know a zerk that consistently does 15k in a non stacked group, not wearing scout gear not on an 8 mob encounter that lasts 10 seconds?</blockquote>i haven't even heard of a zerker doing 15k even with a stacked grp wearing w/e they want on singles.. On multiple mobs sure but on singles? I'd be surprised to even see 11k on singles (zonewide not a high single parse) I've personally parsed 12k on a single mob once but that was when all the moons were aligned and i had a rabbits foot up where the sun don't shine.There is only 1 tank type that is curently doing 11k+ on zonewide singles. And not just 1-2 players... ive seen parses from at least 3 different people already from the same class doing 12k,13k, and 15k single zw palace trash.