AA setup warrior tree past 51 (str stamina)

[Syracus]

<p>Hi i would like to discuss, what you might be think is an good aa setup with that hate changes.</p><p>At the moment i run</p><p>4 4 8 5 str</p><p>4 4 8 8 sta</p><p>4 4 6 8 2 int</p><p>thats my all content raid/solo setup.</p><p>With LU 51 and the fact, that tanks have to focus first in hate i would change str and stamina to something like</p><p>4 4 5 8 str and 4 4 6 8 2 stamina  (stamina endabi to reduce my overall mana need specially for the special)</p><p>I´m not quiet sure maybe cancel stamina endabi and take 4 4 6 8 str and 4 4 7 8 sta.</p><p>I think 4 4 4 8 str is a must have for all mt/ot`s now.</p><p>Greetings Gronkh</p>

[Mew]

<p>I am no expert at being a zerker but my guess would be go 8 pts into Executioner's Anger (STR 4) if you are going to tank most of the time.  But it would be rather pointless to go 8 pts there if you are dps'ing (unless you expect the MT to take frequent dirt naps).</p>

[Elanjar]

<p>Unfortunately I think we are just screwed in the power area. I'd do your original spec but swap the points in STR4 for the points in STA 4. (so 8 in STR4 and 5 in STA4)</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>With GU51 changes, for a tanking spec you will want to run STR 4488 so you can maximize your taunt crit chance and melee crit chance, and maximize your base taunt amount. Unfortunately that means you have to decide which end ability is worth more to you: STA end ability (which cuts power cost by 10%), or INT end ability (which cuts reuse time by 12% and recovery by 30%).</p><p>If you roll with the STA end line, you will want to run STR 4488 STA 44882 INT 4447.</p><p>If you roll with the INT end line, you will want to run STR 4488 STA 4485 INT 44682.</p><p>For me, the 12% reuse greatly outweighs the 10% power cost reduction, especially if you have access to an illusionist or coercer, both of which nullify power problems outright.</p>

[Jrral]

<p>I go with this setup for tanking:</p><ul><li>STR 4-4-4-8</li><li>AGI 1</li><li>STA 6-4-4-8-2</li><li>INT 6-4-4-8-2</li></ul><p>I'll disagree with Xalmat about the usefulness of the STR 3rd melee crit ability. Especially with GU51 melee damage isn't as good as taunts and direct hate for holding aggro, and I'd rather give up a bit of melee crit that's not particularly critical anymore to max out my parry and shield effectiveness <em>and</em> get both STA and INT end-line abilities. I put a few extra points into INT 'cause that's what procs are based off of and it helps my hate procs and I need to spend those points somewhere in that line regardless.</p><p>Now, for pure damage, I'd change it to:</p><ul><li>STR 7-4-8</li><li>STA 4-6-8-4-2</li><li>INT 4-8-8-4-2</li></ul><p>Incoming damage is going to hurt a lot more with this setup.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Crit is still the <em>single </em>most important stat for a Berserker. Even though taunts are getting a huge boost, the majority of your aggro will come from DPS (in particular, Auto-attack is still the single most powerful method of holding aggro). Plus higher DPS means mobs die faster.</p><p>With the build you post above, you outright cripple your DPS by having only a sliver of Double Attack, Crit, and Haste. And you waste points in stat AAs that are better spent elsewhere (6 points in INT? 1 in AGI? C'mon...).</p><p>If you INSIST on getting both STA and INT end lines, then I recommend this build instead:</p><p>STR 4447STA 44882INT 44682</p><p>That way you don't waste points on trivial amounts of stats, and you have some semblance of DPS.</p><p>Truth be told, the raw avoidance you get from STA4 is very tiny, unless you're going for absolutely pure defense you don't need it. You don't really need that much Parry either if you have good gear; in defensive stance you should be very close to the Parry cap by yourself (and if you have a Dirge you'll be over the cap outright).</p><p>I'd rather sacrifice some slight avoidance for some more DPS to help my aggro.</p><p>Again, STA5 is meaningless if you have access to an illusionist or coercer.</p>

[Elanjar]

<p>MC is much greater than extra points in STA4. The raw avoidance gained from that is insignificant compared to the extra dps and therby hate generated from having more MC and DA. The only possible semblance to justify it is that the extra taunt on block could make up the difference. However this would require extensive testing using ACT to determine the average increase in blocks per STA4 aa versus the average dps increase per STR3 aa.This of course is also dependent on you're shield and if you are even using a shield. I find myself dual wielding a lot more than having a shield so the MC effect is even more drastic since I cant block at all.</p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Crit is still the <em>single </em>most important stat for a Berserker. Even though taunts are getting a huge boost, the majority of your aggro will come from DPS (in particular, Auto-attack is still the single most powerful method of holding aggro). Plus higher DPS means mobs die faster.</p></blockquote><p>True prior to TSO. However, I did a ton of testing in TSO beta. And it was discussed with devs. With TSO, the game mechanics changed so that 1 point of DPS generated less aggro than 1 point of taunt. That's consistent with what I observe: given identical setups, I can hold aggro better using pure taunts, no damage at all, than I can using pure damage with no taunts. A mix is best, but it's the taunts that I see dominating. I could even throw away damage completely, go with a WIS build, and hold aggro better than using a pure-DPS STA build. This'll be even more true with GU51 where you take a 50% hit to your auto-attack damage on top of the defensive-stance penalties to your offensive skills. So far every parse we've run in test (and we've run plenty) is showing a 50% reduction in DPS in defensive stance. And tanking in offensive stance is a complete non-starter, with a 10% reduction in hate generation across the board, large reductions in your defensive stats and the loss of all your taunts and threat components on abilities.</p><p>Basically, I go with results: the pure-damage STA build simply doesn't let me hold aggro as well as the build I'm running. I've tried both, repeatedly, and the numbers keep coming out the same way.</p>

[Syracus]

<p>Thanks so far for your arguments,</p><p>I will overthink it for myself again.</p><p>As my main job is tanking on raids as MT/OT i have access to an dirge+enchanter in my group so there is no reason on raids to have stamina endabi. 8 in parry and 8 in shield effectivness are set too, cause thats my primary job. Attack speed and dps arent the problem, in both i very offen run out of line at the same time 220+ ( beside this the benefit over 150+ is to smal to put an focus on that ). So there are to points left in my eyes crits and doubleattack. 15 Point to fit in for beeing an (Tanking)Berserker. So....</p><p>4 4 6 8 2 int (is clear and unchangeable in my eyes)</p><p>4 4 ? 8 sta</p><p>4 4 ? 8 str</p><p>For ? ? i do not know enough in game mechs and math to clearly decide  5 8 or 8 5. (Ying or Yang ..Yang or Ying <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8f7fb9dd46fb8ef86f81154a4feaada9.gif" border="0" /> ....my ogrebrain has exploded <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /> ) Both crits and double seems equal and good to have from dmg point of view. From what i do benefit more ? A higher chance of double attack with bad hit chances and risk tot fail or with an higher chance to land an crit if i have hit. Its like an math diskussion of two formulas and where they cross each other for max benefit ( <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />. Maybee the truth lays in the middle of nowhere between both (Over 4 years of succsessfull tanking and so little knowledge --- in germany we would say " The stupidest farmers have the biggest potatoes" - Hope i have it translated  right )</p><p>Greetings Gronkh</p><p>  </p>

[Syracus]

<p><cite>PS.</cite></p><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you roll with the INT end line, you will want to run STR 4488 STA 4485 INT 44682.</p></blockquote><p>I will take this on my mirror to test it to, it seems to make sence to be an berserker and take only 5 in shield.</p><p>Gronkh</p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And you waste points in stat AAs that are better spent elsewhere (6 points in INT? 1 in AGI? C'mon...).</p></blockquote><p>Oh, logic behind the INT and AGI allocations: INT controls procs. That includes hate procs on my gear. I've confirmed that both by looking at the proc chance as I change INT buffs and by looking at how often procs go off in the parse. Fighter gear is notoriously short on INT. Once I've got 4-4-4-8 in the INT line I need to spend 2 more points in it to open up the end-line ability, and the 2nd and 3rd slots are damage-dealing which I'm not too concerned about. So IMO I get more by bumping INT to get my hate procs to go off more often than I get from a bit more DPS.</p><p>As for the point in AGI, three words: critical hit mitigation. That comes off of AGI for fighters. I've this one point left over after everything else, I've got my defensive AA slots maxed out already, I'm again not concerned about boosting the damage ones more than neccesary to open up the rest of the lines. I'll have plenty of STA from gear, INT I'm above 100 (which I've found is the lower bound for getting procs to go off reliably), STR is mostly for damage. That leaves AGI (crit mit), WIS (spell resist) or (as a last choice) INT to put that last lone point in. I figured crit mit's going to be more important to a tank than spell resists most of the time.</p>

[Rudrick]

<p>spec i tanked track with</p><p>str 4-4-5-8,wis 4-4-7-7-1, int 4-4-7-7-1, speced like this i have tanked everything a guard has with no problem at all</p><p>zerker line</p><p>Perseverance, Cyclone, and Debilitation</p><p>TSO dosnt really matter, i have all the end abilities. This is probibly the best tanking spec imo best aggro/defense abilities i usualy parse between 3-6, in def stance</p>

[victer]

<p><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>True prior to TSO. However, I did a ton of testing in TSO beta. And it was discussed with devs. With TSO, the game mechanics changed so that 1 point of DPS generated less aggro than 1 point of taunt.</p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Ok seriously... enough jrral!! You have said this plenty of times and you are miss-informing people. </span><span style="color: #3366ff;">This is not and has not ever been implemented so stop trying to pass things off like the way you "think" they are.</span></p><p>So far every parse we've run in test (and we've run plenty) is showing a 50% reduction in DPS in defensive stance.</p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">More miss-information! The dammage reduction is about 25-30%</span></p></blockquote><p>If you can currently tank better on live with taunts then you can with DPS then I suggest you try playing with people that dont completely suck. Every single posts of yours that I see spews out some random bull saying that taunts are better for tanking currently then dps.</p><p>I really am getting fed up with your posts as they continue to miss-inform people of whats really going on.</p><p>INT increaseing your taunts and your procs? WHAAAT?</p><p>The simple fact that you for some ungodly reason want to put AA's into AGI1/STA1/INT1 instead of str3 /boggles my mind and i suggest anyone with any type of willingness to play thier zerker to its fullest is best to just outright ignore any post you make. I'm sorry I'm usually not this much of a jerk with people... but you continually keep spewing out miss-information that you CLAIM to have been testing and talking to devs about.</p><p>If you dont understand how huge +crit is for zerkers or for any class in general then i dont know what else to tell you. And yes thats even with the changes comming that decrease our damage.</p><p>Do you not think that critting is still much better then not critting? Or would you raither have 6 more agi 10 more sta and 16 more int?</p><p>Anyways Jrral im sorry i had to be so harsh with you as i know you are just trying to help out. But fact is you are not. To everyone else out there... be very carefull about what this guy is saying.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>True prior to TSO. However, I did a ton of testing in TSO beta. And it was discussed with devs. With TSO, the game mechanics changed so that 1 point of DPS generated less aggro than 1 point of taunt.</p></blockquote><p>No matter how many times you say this, it won't be true. Even after GU51 it's not true. IT was never posted by any developer on the beta boards. Not once.</p>

[Elanjar]

<p><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Crit is still the <em>single </em>most important stat for a Berserker. Even though taunts are getting a huge boost, the majority of your aggro will come from DPS (in particular, Auto-attack is still the single most powerful method of holding aggro). Plus higher DPS means mobs die faster.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>True prior to TSO. However, I did a ton of testing in TSO beta. And it was discussed with devs. With TSO, the game mechanics changed so that 1 point of DPS generated less aggro than 1 point of taunt. </strong></span></p></blockquote><p>1) FALSE!! You have no idea what you are talking about. it has never been said anywhere ever, by anyone but yourself that this is true. No testing suggests this. Stop spewing useless garbage.</p><p>2) Your spec's make no sense. You put 6 points in STA and 6 points in INT. Now unless you literally have crap gear, you should be at least at the soft cap on STA, so an extra (what is that 8 points) couple points of STA gives you like what 13 hp? Or you could get 10% more DA which is A LOT more hate overal... As for the INT i dont even want to go there but INT DOES NOTHING FOR A BERSERKER. We don't cast spells, we dont have poisons, we have no reason for intelligence. (thats why the dont put in on the gear)</p><p>3) Even though they are revamping fighters to make taunts/hate more important than dps agro-wise that does not mean COMPLETELY IGNORE DPS. A good tank will maximize his potential for agro control (balanced with survivability and effciency dps and power-wise). This still means that you need to maximize your dps as much as possible without sacrificing the effectiveness of your taunts, and your overall survivability.</p>

[Mephistophelese]

<p>i am not in test and don;t have the play time to do so. but to solve the whole is 1 point of hate = to 1 point of dps. ACT will now parse your Hate per second. if youe in test just taunt something, then hit it for about the same amount and see what it sais. persionally i hope taunts do more hps than dps, will make agro easier</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>ACT parses your threat generated alongside your damage output. It doesn't parse Hate, since it does not know your hate mods and such.</p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>Mephistophelese wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i am not in test and don;t have the play time to do so. but to solve the whole is 1 point of hate = to 1 point of dps. ACT will now parse your Hate per second. if youe in test just taunt something, then hit it for about the same amount and see what it sais. persionally i hope taunts do more hps than dps, will make agro easier</p></blockquote><p>The logs only contain hate generated by taunts and abilities with direct hate attached (eg. War Pledge). Indirect hate from damage isn't logged. Other people can see the total end result on their threat meters, the more hate the tank's generating the lower their numbers will be, but that's it.</p>

[Mephistophelese]

<p>ahh ok, thought with new hate meters act could track it all</p>

[Elanjar]

<p><cite>Mephistophelese wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>ahh ok, thought with new hate meters act could track it all</p></blockquote><p>You can still get a pretty rough estimate. You can parse both your dps and your hps. and then just keep in mind that you have an XX% modifier on you dps hate gain. so if you've got a 50% hate gain mod and your parse looks like this</p><p>2500dps : 4000hps</p><p>then your total hate per second is probably around 7.7k ish</p>