GU 51 play test feedback -1/27 [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Aeralik

01-27-2009, 09:17 PM

Thanks to everyone that came out today for the playtest. If you have any feedback from grouping or any other testing feel free to post it here. If you are uncomfortable with it feel free to send me a pm. Thanks again to everyone that helped out in both of the playtests.

Windowlicker

01-27-2009, 09:21 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you are uncomfortable with it feel free to send me a pm. </blockquote>I sent you a PM concerning the last play test and you still haven't responded to it.

Mythal_EQ2

01-27-2009, 09:50 PM

Did a quick group in Deep Forge tonight.Group consisted of warrior, monk, mystic, swashbuckler, coercer and wizard (me).If I recall, we were all with mythicals, a few with a couple of Avatar pieces as well.Hate, to be honest, for me at least, did not seem to be an issue. The swashbuckler did say that he found himself climbing up to 90+ on the hate meter though, even though no one died and the tank was able to pull agro back (from what I saw) pretty easily.My only concern is that, because of our gear and group setup, mobs died pretty much in 10 seconds or less -- even the nameds, I don't think we had a fight that exceeded 40 seconds. As such, I would have to reserve judgement on how the agro changes would work on longer fights (i.e. raid fights).I hope that another play test can be scheduled with people headed for a raid zone instead of just instances.D.

Katanalla

01-27-2009, 09:58 PM

I was pulling agro a lot esp aoe. But it was a fun group Aeralik <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> amd yea that encounter wide was pewp when we had multiple encounters, can we go back to blue open aoe and just let that die with sleight of hand change hopes? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />Need to get an actual like... test raid going on Friday or something, get real testing!But yea, the 'meh' hate proc temp buff wasn't a suitable replacement for our 27% transfer as it is now on test.

Slowin

01-27-2009, 10:01 PM

I'd like to see anyone pull aggro off an equally geared SK....that class is so overpowered right now... tbh.. as an AoE tank.. it makes no difference if its a single target.

Cabral

01-27-2009, 10:02 PM

My complaint is not from an experience during testing but rather in trying to get TO testing. You timed your test when you were at work and even living in Central Time, I could not get home from my 9-5 (8-5 actually) job in time to play. I even sent you a tell likely as you were logging (since I received no response and shortly thereafter you were no longer online) I was really looking forward to contributing but your test was so short and so early in the day, that I coul not. I imagine that many others like me could not join you.The people who could play likely have more time to play and consist of a lager than representative group of casual players. As you expresed the desire to test the impact on solo and small group experiences (such as my wife and I - Templar and Paladin), could you please take the "average" working person's schedule into acount when planning events?That said, I am enthused by how the forum's feedback is reflected in the latest patch and I particularly interested in hearing if any Pallies got to test the new Divine Favor.

demonwr

01-28-2009, 03:48 AM

All: (10:22) 10594510 | 17032.97 [Daervonxx-Ball of Magma-49631]Daervonxx 2911057 | 4680.16 lock Mizou 2818433 | 4531.24 swashy Coercesx 2697995 | 4337.61 corcer Demonrage 983141 | 1580.61 me zerk my TPS was 4399.75 overall hate 6039.52Profe 643120 | 1033.96 mysticWarrdog 540764 | 869.40 monk Coercesx's Azzasalbtraum puppet 0 | 0.00Ok zone was deep forge all mythed but the monk pritty well geared toonsFor most of the zone i actualy turned off hate from my track shield and didnt use corcer hate transfer to more represent a commen pickup group withought ideal hate i tanked 90% of the zone in pure def gear and stance not trying to push out dps but hold more through taunts while still using dps but prioritizng taunts over dps. With corcer hate off and no track shield buff active thay where able to pull agrro ar times but was simple to snap it back within a second and that was usualy while the corcer or lock would spike like 8k+ dps with me around 2k x4 less. now while i had track shield buff active and corcer hate buff on me thay didnt pull a single time i could almost still afk tank with maybe 2-3 taunts on a mob in a 30 second fight.That all being said i think heroic instances will be fine we where all about equaly geared and it was what ya expected with and withought ideal hate setups through buffing. What i now want to see is if while tanking a raid with ideal hate setup can we still hold assassins and the other T1 dps doing say 14k + zw parses while we are sitting in def and bairly hitting the orange con mobs is the procs and taunts gonna be enouf?

denmom

01-28-2009, 07:44 AM

I wasn't the tank, but the healer, in the group I was in.My only problem with the playtest in general was how many raid geared, myth'd and fabled folks I saw in the gathering spot. I saw so many full VP sets and myths...Aeralik himself was in the Warlock fabled suit with the Warlock myth, legendary and fabled jewelry. He also was pulling in high end folks, those mastered out and with high end gear.I just have to wonder just how balanced of a testing is all this? Espcially since Aeralik wanted us to go thru "easy TSO instances".The above folks testing out easy instances is like testing performance on a high end racing car and then using that data to evaluate the performance of an economy car.The average L80 isn't going to be in raid gear. Maybe a few masters, a fabled piece here and there, but they'll be in legendary from RoK and whatever they get in TSO.I dunno...it just seems like the testing will give results not indicative of the general player populace. I find it hard to believe that raid geared toons are the majority. Testing really shouldn't be based on them, no offense meant.Of course, there's always the devil's advocate view: working with what you have...as in most who copied over are raid geared and mastered.I dunno...but I just had to say something, not really meaning to argue...just had concerns and not sure where to put them.And before I head off...Kiljoi, Ardor, Carainy, Dread, Sharp, Odonox (sp? and they left in the middle of testing)...it was fun, really. And Dread, don't forget to keep your evac away from your fighting hotbars! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Antryg Mistrose

01-28-2009, 09:43 AM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wasn't the tank, but the healer, in the group I was in.My only problem with the playtest in general was how many raid geared, myth'd and fabled folks I saw in the gathering spot. I saw so many full VP sets and myths...Aeralik himself was in the Warlock fabled suit with the Warlock myth, legendary and fabled jewelry. He also was pulling in high end folks, those mastered out and with high end gear.I just have to wonder just how balanced of a testing is all this? Espcially since Aeralik wanted us to go thru "easy TSO instances".The above folks testing out easy instances is like testing performance on a high end racing car and then using that data to evaluate the performance of an economy car.The average L80 isn't going to be in raid gear. Maybe a few masters, a fabled piece here and there, but they'll be in legendary from RoK and whatever they get in TSO.I dunno...it just seems like the testing will give results not indicative of the general player populace. I find it hard to believe that raid geared toons are the majority. Testing really shouldn't be based on them, no offense meant.Of course, there's always the devil's advocate view: working with what you have...as in most who copied over are raid geared and mastered.I dunno...but I just had to say something, not really meaning to argue...just had concerns and not sure where to put them.And before I head off...Kiljoi, Ardor, Carainy, Dread, Sharp, Odonox (sp? and they left in the middle of testing)...it was fun, really. And Dread, don't forget to keep your evac away from your fighting hotbars! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Its easier to pull aggro when the whole group is well geared, as there is a lot more stuff currently out that boosts dps than boosts tank threat.The difference in taunt abilities between a fully mastered raid tank and and adept3ed legendary fighter, isn't actually that huge either, so my opinion is that lesser geared groups should find it easier (except for the fights being longer). Of course I haven't actually got a group on test as a tank to test this theory.

Tandy

01-28-2009, 10:03 AM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wasn't the tank, but the healer, in the group I was in.My only problem with the playtest in general was how many raid geared, myth'd and fabled folks I saw in the gathering spot. I saw so many full VP sets and myths...Aeralik himself was in the Warlock fabled suit with the Warlock myth, legendary and fabled jewelry. He also was pulling in high end folks, those mastered out and with high end gear.I just have to wonder just how balanced of a testing is all this? Espcially since Aeralik wanted us to go thru "easy TSO instances".The above folks testing out easy instances is like testing performance on a high end racing car and then using that data to evaluate the performance of an economy car.The average L80 isn't going to be in raid gear. Maybe a few masters, a fabled piece here and there, but they'll be in legendary from RoK and whatever they get in TSO.I dunno...it just seems like the testing will give results not indicative of the general player populace. I find it hard to believe that raid geared toons are the majority. Testing really shouldn't be based on them, no offense meant.Of course, there's always the devil's advocate view: working with what you have...as in most who copied over are raid geared and mastered.I dunno...but I just had to say something, not really meaning to argue...just had concerns and not sure where to put them.And before I head off...Kiljoi, Ardor, Carainy, Dread, Sharp, Odonox (sp? and they left in the middle of testing)...it was fun, really. And Dread, don't forget to keep your evac away from your fighting hotbars! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Its easier to pull aggro when the whole group is well geared, as there is a lot more stuff currently out that boosts dps than boosts tank threat.The difference in taunt abilities between a fully mastered raid tank and and adept3ed legendary fighter, isn't actually that huge either, so my opinion is that lesser geared groups should find it easier (except for the fights being longer). Of course I haven't actually got a group on test as a tank to test this theory.</blockquote>I have to agree with you there. A tank can hold aggro about as well with these changes if they are legendary geared or fully fabled. The question that needs answered is if they can hold it against someone doing 2k dps and someone doing 9k dps.Having a high DPS class to work with who is all geared out makes the testing meaningful becaue if you balance from the top down its easier on the lesser geared people.Its when balance comes from the bottom up that you end up with the situations everyone here talks about...IE the raid people get special treatment, or the raid people are so uber they have to nerf the whole class to bring them back in line etc etc etc.If I know a tank can hold aggro against a mythical welding warlock.....I know 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt they can hold aggro off a legendary geared one.

Antryg Mistrose

01-28-2009, 10:05 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Removed - Kiara</blockquote>Aggro gets harder as groups/raids scale up in damage, not easier. I've seen the same winges over lower level content, where there is even less justification for it.I have 3 complaints from testing:1) People who keep copying toons over and over and pinching all the Adept3's of Restitution I put on the broker2) Not enough people to form raids3) No real attempt to have a single target tank, tank content with an AoE heavy group.And none of those can you blame Aeralik for.

denmom

01-28-2009, 10:21 AM

Thanks for possible reasons. I'm just tired, real life's been weird around home, things came to mind, and I had to say something.I can see the points brought up. And I did give a "devil's advocate" clause.I do know when I've tested with Pheep vs. my guildee's Wizard, I can hold aggro rather well, far better than I do on live even with Amends. She's pulled things right off, usually single target mobs out of batches we get when questing, but on Test she wasn't able to when I was in defensive.From what I've seen on the play tests, the fighters greatly outnumber the healers. That's why I brought out mine instead of running on Pheep. I've already given my feedback in regards to my own experiences, etc.Bed for me...too darned late here.

Freliant

01-28-2009, 10:31 AM

<cite>demonwrym wrote:</cite><blockquote>All: (10:22) 10594510 | 17032.97 [Daervonxx-Ball of Magma-49631]Daervonxx 2911057 | 4680.16 lock Mizou 2818433 | 4531.24 swashy Coercesx 2697995 | 4337.61 corcer Demonrage 983141 | 1580.61 me zerk my TPS was 4399.75 overall hate 6039.52Profe 643120 | 1033.96 mysticWarrdog 540764 | 869.40 monk Coercesx's Azzasalbtraum puppet 0 | 0.00</blockquote>Daervonxx is a Wizard, not a Warlock, since Ball of Magma is a wizard only spell. Also, the only way it can do 49k damage is if you use it with the prince of Ro Miracle that increases fire damage.Anyways, I have tested the changes and it is a good change.

Detor

01-28-2009, 10:45 AM

Tamar

01-28-2009, 11:10 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wasn't the tank, but the healer, in the group I was in.My only problem with the playtest in general was how many raid geared, myth'd and fabled folks I saw in the gathering spot. I saw so many full VP sets and myths...Aeralik himself was in the Warlock fabled suit with the Warlock myth, legendary and fabled jewelry. He also was pulling in high end folks, those mastered out and with high end gear.I just have to wonder just how balanced of a testing is all this? Espcially since Aeralik wanted us to go thru "easy TSO instances".The above folks testing out easy instances is like testing performance on a high end racing car and then using that data to evaluate the performance of an economy car.The average L80 isn't going to be in raid gear. Maybe a few masters, a fabled piece here and there, but they'll be in legendary from RoK and whatever they get in TSO.I dunno...it just seems like the testing will give results not indicative of the general player populace. I find it hard to believe that raid geared toons are the majority. Testing really shouldn't be based on them, no offense meant.[cut]</blockquote>removed -- Kiara</blockquote>Not that you will listen. You seem quite content to just cry the same broken record over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over......but, it has been mentioned TO YOU BY MORE THAN A FEW that the way scaling works with the abilities in game, that if the aggro is balanced at top geared level 80 (where the most chance for problems will be) then it will be more than fine at your SK's level of 70 and for those below it.It has also been said that Aeralik's testing IS NOT THE ONLY TESTING GOING ON. He has just been kind enough to actually do what many have suggested, participate on the Test Server, which by the way is open to ANYONE using the /testcopy add command...ANYONE...of any level. From there you can /feedback. It has been said by more than a few that such /feedback is read and passed to the appropriate personel...all of them. Does this mean they use your /feedback above the /feedback of others and above the data comapred against their own metrics? Be realistic...I know, it is hard.This will in most likelyhood me the most thoroughly tested change put in to EQ2. Does it mean that everyone will like it? No. But currently you are doing zip, zero, zilch, in helping with the testing. I have no doubt that you have clocked more time crying on the forums than you have actually playing on test. And that might be ok if your crying was constructive and provided information, but it isn't and doesn't. It is just rantings and assumptions.I've been on Test Server...with NOT a level 80 Mythicaled. I enjoy the changes for the most part. Some of the tweaks I do not agree with (5 second recast?!?), but all in all I found NO issues with my lower levels being able to solo, or tank in a group.

Rijacki

01-28-2009, 12:07 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>removed - Kiara</blockquote>Did YOU log on during the playtest time period? Did YOU do any soloing on your paladin during the target time where Aeralik will be directly going over logs? Did YOU even attempt to get a group on Test during the play test time with other characters around your character's level? In other words, did YOU do -anything- to facilitate testing of the thing YOU want tested (paladin soloing) during the time period of the playtest which is the section of the logs, server wide, Aeralik will be going over in conjunction with the comments of players here and in /feedback?No?Were you stuck at work (like me.. until past 5 Pacific time *sigh*) or just determined to sit and pout?

liveja

01-28-2009, 12:23 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>He should be organizing groups in other zones of other levels</blockquote>Because, obviously, Aeralik is the only person on the Test Server who can organize a group, amirite????/facepalmYour refusal to even bother trying speaks volumes.

Maroger

01-28-2009, 12:26 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>He should be organizing groups in other zones of other levels</blockquote>Because, obviously, Aeralik is the only person on the Test Server who can organize a group, amirite????/facepalmYour refusal to even bother trying speaks volumes.</blockquote>If the developer who is making the change is not present - it is a waste of time - I doubt he reads feedback other than those he gets from his level 80's with mythicals.

Jrral

01-28-2009, 12:35 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did YOU log on during the playtest time period? Did YOU do any soloing on your paladin during the target time where Aeralik will be directly going over logs? Did YOU even attempt to get a group on Test during the play test time with other characters around your character's level? In other words, did YOU do -anything- to facilitate testing of the thing YOU want tested (paladin soloing) during the time period of the playtest which is the section of the logs, server wide, Aeralik will be going over in conjunction with the comments of players here and in /feedback?No?Were you stuck at work (like me.. until past 5 Pacific time *sigh*) or just determined to sit and pout?</blockquote>Myself, I'd've liked to get in on the playtest. But I can't justify taking a day off work, not with projects already overdue and more arriving in my inbox every day (I'm getting tired of telling people "Go run this past the project manager so she knows what you're adding to the schedule."). I can, if I push it, be in-game and ready by 7pm PST. Earlier, just a no-go. I know why Aeralik's testing at the times he is, that's when he's in his office at work. But that automatically means he's not going to get anybody who works the same hours he does, the standard day shift, except maybe for those on the East coast.

liveja

01-28-2009, 12:41 PM

Jrral

01-28-2009, 12:51 PM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Generally true - but not always. Aeralik in a mythical weilding warlock is going to see himself pulling aggro much less often than a legendary geared warlock. (there is a dehate on the epic weapon)You can't blame Aeralik however for who was in the gathering spot. If he came and there were 30 legendary geared players, and 5 fabled ones then he picked just the fabled ones - yeah, feel free to yell at him. Don't blame him for who showed up at the gathering spot though.</blockquote>Exactly on the first point. Raid-geared characters may do more damage, but they and the tank also have more aggro control from the kind of gear they have. They need it in raids. And that raid gear also means they kill instance mobs a lot faster, because it's just so overpowered for the kind of mobs you find in instances. It's designed to help kill epics, after all. Raid-geared characters in an instance is like taking a full group of instance-legendary-geared players out against overland solo content: they so out-gun the mobs that fights aren't going to last long enough for aggro to be an issue, and the tank going down just isn't going to happen. Tone down the gear and the fights run longer, power becomes an issue, the tank gets stunned/stifled more, damage classes have more time to eat away at the tank's aggro lead, generally things get a lot more unstable the longer the fight goes on. And that's what instance-geared players have to contend with. As I said, is it a fair test of the balance of solo content if a full group of instance-legendary characters has no trouble with it?Aeralik is a developer, though. He can create (or have created) full sets of T1 shard armor, class sets, any kind of gear he needs to have. Given a group of raid-geared characters, he can turn them into a group of instance-legendary-geared (or T1 shard geared at most) characters with a little planning ahead. And that's what I would have done: had things set up so I could hand out sets of T1 shard armor, RoK class sets or sets of 77 or 72 mastercrafted on demand, then gave everybody in the group their choice if they weren't legendary-geared at the moment. T1 shard armor is fairly high-end for casual groups, but it's still something even casual players can get without being hooked in to a raid guild.

Kordran

01-28-2009, 01:12 PM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>T1 shard armor is fairly high-end for casual groups, but it's still something even casual players can get without being hooked in to a raid guild.</blockquote>I was pretty much with you there, until you made this comment. T1 void armor high-end for casuals? Seriously, if you can't get a full set of T1 void armor in a few weeks, you're not just casual -- you're barely playing the game at all. A full set of T1 armor costs 38 shards if you have it crafted, 44 if you buy it from a merchant. Factoring in the daily double missions, you're looking at running just one mission per day for a couple of weeks. If you ran just two easy missions a day (Deep Forge and Scion), which amounts to about 2 hours of game time per day, you'd be able to get a full suit in about a week and a half.

demonwr

01-28-2009, 01:16 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>demonwrym wrote:</cite><blockquote>All: (10:22) 10594510 | 17032.97 [Daervonxx-Ball of Magma-49631]Daervonxx 2911057 | 4680.16 lock Mizou 2818433 | 4531.24 swashy Coercesx 2697995 | 4337.61 corcer Demonrage 983141 | 1580.61 me zerk my TPS was 4399.75 overall hate 6039.52Profe 643120 | 1033.96 mysticWarrdog 540764 | 869.40 monk Coercesx's Azzasalbtraum puppet 0 | 0.00</blockquote>Daervonxx is a Wizard, not a Warlock, since Ball of Magma is a wizard only spell. Also, the only way it can do 49k damage is if you use it with the prince of Ro Miracle that increases fire damage.Anyways, I have tested the changes and it is a good change.</blockquote>my bad yeah must have been a wizzy had to use default window ui as profit wasnt giving group window on test so didnt have the classes shoing the whole time

liveja

01-28-2009, 01:20 PM

Mentalep

01-28-2009, 01:28 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>He should be organizing groups in other zones of other levels</blockquote>Because, obviously, Aeralik is the only person on the Test Server who can organize a group, amirite????/facepalmYour refusal to even bother trying speaks volumes.</blockquote>If the developer who is making the change is not present - it is a waste of time - I doubt he reads feedback other than those he gets from his level 80's with mythicals.</blockquote>Um, yeah. When he goes over his /feedback logs, he takes the time to hit the database before every single feedback entry, to see if the account from which it originated contains any characters with mythical weapons.Aeralik has managed to sell his supervisor on this open playtesting idea, and he is running it during his working hours. He should be - it's work. He has already mentioned that the QA team is doing extensive internal testing in a variety of scenarios across all level ranges. The kind of testing some people in this thread are demanding that he personally attend and supervise would not only require prohibitive amounts of time - working time - but would never even get off the ground. Why? Because these are community playtests, NOT internal playtests - and the community that is showing up on the test server to these playtests is predominantly level 80 (I was there, I saw it myself). For all the complaining we're seeing about whether a level 20 guardian can hold aggro off a level 20 brigand with taunts that are several times their current values, we're not seeing a whole lot of level 20s showing up to test.And why aren't they? Aeralik's playtest has a broader impact than just him taking one group out for a couple of hours - it's setting up a structured meeting time for anyone to get on the normally vacant test server and form a group when they know many others will also be there for the same purpose.What do you expect him to do? Pull a full group of level 20 characters in handcrafted gear - and the players to run them - out of thin air? That's what the testing department is already doing. That's their job. They have the tools and the numbers to run tests like that, repeatedly, with total control over any variables that enter the equation. They have dozens of sets of preconfigured test characters for exactly this purpose. An open playtest for community feedback is not the same thing at all. Aeralik is one developer, and he may not even have access to modify or generate character data directly on the servers - but even if he did, you're talking about a LOT of setup time... for something that's already being worked on by a dedicated team.How often do you see this kind of participation from commercial MMO developers? I wouldn't blame Aeralik if he never did it again, after the outrageous and irrational attacks being thrown at him for organizing not one, but two such events. I'm skeptical of some of the changes being made in this patch, and I strongly disagree with some of Aeralik's viewpoints (such as his single-target vs multi-target tank paradigm, and the "power efficiency" argument he uses to support it), but it's clear that the criticisms being levelled at Aeralik about these playtests are reactionary and emotional.If you want Aeralik to consider how this patch affects your particular situation, then get your guild and your friends over to the test server and start giving /feedback. If it's as big an issue as you claim, I'm sure they'll jump at the chance to test things out.

Jrral

01-28-2009, 01:34 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was pretty much with you there, until you made this comment. T1 void armor high-end for casuals? Seriously, if you can't get a full set of T1 void armor in a few weeks, you're not just casual -- you're barely playing the game at all.</blockquote>Bear in mind, I define casual as similar to myself: works a job, has household chores and errands to do, cannot give the game priority over RL. I can rarely get on before 8pm, and have to be off by midnight. That gives me time for maybe 1 TSO instance run, 2 shards (4 if I'm lucky and hit the daily double), a day. And I can't do that every day, I have other things in-game to do too (work on my own epic weapon, HQs, help guildmates with their epics and quests, work on crafting, run non-TSO instances with friends who want drops from them and aren't ready for TSO instances, help friends level up alts). So I may get in only a couple-three shard runs a week, meaning a week or two per piece of T1 shard gear. Sure, I could probably get a full T1 set in a few weeks... IF I was willing to give up everything else in pursuit of them. But for me a lot of the definition of casual is that a casual isn't inclined towards that kind of single-minded pursuit of a single goal. I'd rather run with friends getting a couple of epic updates than shepherd a pick-up group just to get another 2 shards.And answer me this: if T1 shard armor isn't high-end, exactly what T8 gear can you get that's better that doesn't involve a raid?

RafaelSmith

01-28-2009, 02:10 PM

Kordran

01-28-2009, 02:22 PM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>And answer me this: if T1 shard armor isn't high-end, exactly what T8 gear can you get that's better that doesn't involve a raid?</blockquote>Hmm. Let me think on this one, because this is a very difficult question to answer off the top of my head ... oh, wait! Yes, I have the answer for you. It was elusive, but through the exhaustive use of Google, eq2i.com, lootdb.com and Allakhazam I was able to find what armor was superior to T1 void shard armor, but did not requiring raiding:T2 void shard armor.Sorry, couldn't help but be snarky there because your question gave me a chuckle. T2 void shard armor, the stuff with the critical mitigation on the pieces, requires no (as in none, zero, zip, nada) raiding. All it requires its corresponding T1 armor piece and additional shards.Edit: And I would point out that most of the T2 void armor has very nice set bonuses; you find a lot of folks who had RoK fabled, even some VP fabled gear, are swapping it out for the T2 void legendary stuff. Particularly if they're doing the entry mobs in TSO raids, because of the critical mitigation bonuses.In case you're curious as to how it actually works, as a Berserker, your T1 void shard armor is the <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Heroic_Might_%28Armor_Set%29" target="_blank">Heroic Might</a> armor set. You can then take those pieces, with additional shards, and upgrade it to the T2 void armor, which for you would be the <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Champion_of_the_Void_%28Armor_Set%29" target="_blank">Champion of the Void</a> set. If you have 3 of the 6 pieces, you get a reactive that increases threat every time a mob hits you; if you have 5 of the 6 pieces, you also get an overall increase to mitigation. And the chest piece has an effect which absorbs 2-3% of physical damage outright.Tip #1: Start with the shoulders first. They're the best piece in the set.I keep editing this, but I took a look at your player profile. There's quite a bit of RoK gear that you could get that's not difficult to get your hands on, and does not requiring raiding. Examples:Sallet of the Reet Knight (Collection)Mantle of the Jarsath Tribe (Maiden's Chamber)Armguards of the Elite Yha-Lei Shock Troops (Chelsith)Golden Leggings (Sebilis)Boots of the Wastes Hunter (Jarsath Wastes, quested)Cloak of the Grungetalon Champion (RE2)Incarnadine Earring (Chardok)Shackles of the Court (Chardok)All of those would be upgrades to what you have, but honestly, your time would be better spent focusing on getting your T1 void set. Yes, it would require devoting some time to accomplishing a specific goal -- but the payoff is that you'll be better equipped to help your friends do even more rewarding content. If you run in a regular group, which I gather you do, that focus on all of you spending a couple of weeks to get your T1 gear would be more of an immediate benefit than anything else.Tip #2: Adorn everything that makes sense. With the proper gear and adornments, you should have higher health and avoidance than you do; but all of that is easily rectified on your part.

Frijoles

01-28-2009, 03:08 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dunno...it just seems like the testing will give results not indicative of the general player populace. I find it hard to believe that raid geared toons are the majority. </blockquote>This has been a concern of mine for a *long* time - and for others too, judging by what what I've read on the matter.The individuals who contribute their time to testing can't be faulted, really, but I think the clown shoes at SOE that aren't willing to pay for a more adequate test setup can, and should be.Cheap bastids.(I knew something was tragically amiss when SOE nixed their toll-free CS phone numbers during that first year!)

Aeralik

01-28-2009, 03:13 PM

Just a reminder this is about feedback not testing methods. I haven't really seen any change like this ever run as a playtest before. So I would think its more of a bonus that I am out there trying to see how things are working to ensure the patch goes as smoothly as possible. There was approximately 50 people there mainly tanks and I used my best judgement on who to choose. I can only group up with 5 others and you need space for a healer and the guys who are going to give it their all to pull aggro. I also broadcasted that the rest should form up with healers and go try a zone. To those who did I thank you. I have been reading the feedback as you can see by the constant tweaks. Do we necessarily implement all feedback? No. It's just not possible to appeal to everyones views while trying to look at the broader big picture of where we are going. The update is shaping up well though and while we might not be 100% there with everything its pretty close and things will continue to get small tweaks over time.If you want to submit feedback from your own tests you can always post in this forum or just send me a pm. I've been flooded with them lately though so if I don't respond don't take it personally but I do read them.

Kiljoi

01-28-2009, 03:36 PM

I think the changes implemented to the paladin are coming along really nicely. Thx Aeralik for making the feedback from the paly community heard.I felt agro is much more viable then it was prior to this update on test.However, I have a few areas that I think are problematic.Survivability - the change to DF is much appreciated. Stonewall really lacks tho. Maybe increase the number of blocks or change it completely to something like a Guards Dragoons FuryAgro - Fine if you can spec completely for hate and have Faithful Cry, with the masters and AA to do it. Fortunately I do, but those that dont might have some real probs.Also, our 4set bonus... whats the deal with that? It seems bad and really lacking to me. Maybe add something to the set bonus more like the VP bonus... or more survivability thru heals wtc.. idk just throwing out thoughts.Id like to see our heals maybe used faster or perhaps ward castable thru stun/stiffle with added hate. Its not as much of a complaint about our heals power as it is the ability to use them when its needed the most. Oh one last thing - Id like to see the actual hate our heals/wards generate.

denmom

01-28-2009, 04:02 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a reminder this is about feedback not testing methods. I haven't really seen any change like this ever run as a playtest before. So I would think its more of a bonus that I am out there trying to see how things are working to ensure the patch goes as smoothly as possible. There was approximately 50 people there mainly tanks and I used my best judgement on who to choose. I can only group up with 5 others and you need space for a healer and the guys who are going to give it their all to pull aggro. I also broadcasted that the rest should form up with healers and go try a zone. To those who did I thank you. I have been reading the feedback as you can see by the constant tweaks. Do we necessarily implement all feedback? No. It's just not possible to appeal to everyones views while trying to look at the broader big picture of where we are going. The update is shaping up well though and while we might not be 100% there with everything its pretty close and things will continue to get small tweaks over time.If you want to submit feedback from your own tests you can always post in this forum or just send me a pm. I've been flooded with them lately though so if I don't respond don't take it personally but I do read them.</blockquote>I didn't mean to derail this thread, no offense meant. Yah, I'll throw bricks at devs now and then, but I wasn't with the post that got the topic drift.I was just concerned on how the overall testing seemed to be possibly skewed toward those in raid gear. What they experience will be different than the average player. Mythicals give bonuses, gear does as well, etc.That's why I put in the line of "working with what was there". If those who are raid geared and myth'd are there, then that's what you go with. The only one I could see who was similarly geared as my healer is, RoK legendary with T1 shard gear, was the Assassin Dread-can'trememberthelasthalfofhisnamesorry, in the group I was with this time around.Again, I didn't mean to set about topic drift this badly...it was late for me, dealing with real life being wonky, and I wasn't sure where to put the post.I'll say this: I do like the defensive changes. I can hold aggro with a batch of unlinked mob against my guild's Wizard, they don't peel off as they will on Live when she goes to a different target than the one I'm on. The blue aoe with threat, Circular Smite, will be my new friend.I do have concerns with off stance...I did test the recent changes. My question is with the taunt Excoriation which has the divine debuff...will the debuff still be working even tho the threat component no longer will? That's what I'm not sure of.Thank you...I've rambled enough.

Mythal_EQ2

01-28-2009, 04:14 PM

Oh... since I forgot in my post above... my main feedback regarding these changes is:1) Please make the resistability of Concussive on par with master-quality spells, or (even better) on par with Bewilderment. As it stands now, at 12% it's worse than an App4 and does get resisted quite often.2) Make the cast time of Blip (and the equivalent warlock spell) on par with Concussive (currently it's double).3) More than any of the above, in my opinion, what would help the most is if you could make our deagros castable on the run (like Bewilderment AA). That way, even if we do peel aggro, we have a chance to run to the tank while casting our deagros at the same time.Oh, and yes, I am a wizard, not warlock <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />D.

Fabricius

01-28-2009, 04:23 PM

Fabricius

01-28-2009, 04:40 PM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Removed - Kiara</blockquote>Aggro gets harder as groups/raids scale up in damage, not easier. I've seen the same winges over lower level content, where there is even less justification for it.I have 3 complaints from testing:1) People who keep copying toons over and over and pinching all the Adept3's of Restitution I put on the broker2) Not enough people to form raids3) No real attempt to have a single target tank, tank content with an AoE heavy group.And none of those can you blame Aeralik for.</blockquote>I am level 80 Monk, I don't know how you can get anymore single target. Yet I grouped with aeralik as a warlock with myth and full TSO fable set, a swashy, a coercer, a warden and a Guardian. In this group we had by far the least Single target hate compared to other tanks with high end AoE DPS. I seen aggro more manageable than it is on live but it is still lacking somewhat. My main problem is 24% ae attack from wisdom aa line is not a viable AA choice since it will not help me defensively hold ae aggro when in defensive I have a .5 multiplier and crushing/slashing/piercing drop. Over all the changes seem to be incomplete atleast for my class. We seem to be lacking strong AA choices as other classes have. The only choice in AA's I consider strong is Chi. All the others are toss ups with less reward than I expect.We ran Caverns of the Afflicted though this was barely a case of good tanking rather than good healing and killing mobs fast as a run through this instance normally is. We also ran Deep Forge where I tried to tank in offensive and it is fairly difficult to achieve, mid stance I easily had the most aggro but still lost it and defensive I had some trouble single target and AE target. Not sure if it is since monks 55-65% of dps is made through auto attack the .5 multiplier hits us harder compared to others that it is 35-50% of there dps. Bruisers obviously have similar problems but there AA choices seem a little stronger than Monks.As I said as a whole I felt the testing was incomplete and changes atleast for my class was not where I had hoped.So as for your # 3 yeah aeralik himself set up a huge AE dps group with the 2 worst single target tanks in the game right now, he is either brave or stupid for not taking a Zerker, SK or pally.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />-Fabricius-Crushbone-Aftershock

Gnomie

01-28-2009, 04:50 PM

Any chance you could fix the bugs you introduced with the Bruiser's taunts so we can test it a little before it goes live?Bruiser line AE taunt AA now increases recast (supposed to reduce). Reduction in recast/point (which, again, is bugged) was reduced also (to the point where the % increase to threat added to the AA does not compensate). So even if it was working as intended, it was decreased in effectiveness.In addition, the single target taunt AA in the bruiser line is also broken. It's supposed to increase threat by 3% per point, instead it increases threat by 3, 3 total. So my single target taunt low end went from 5011 (with all other taunt aa's) to 5026 with 5 points spent.And finally, the change to shiftiness, making it a stance enhancer, is completely broken and does nothing to any part of any stance.Was going to come to test to see how aggro was working for bruiser, but with new bugs, it's pointless to even try.I suspect AE aggro will still be lacking, in which case I was going to reccommend an increase in the AE taunt and making our stance procs encounter based (which was added to SK's...lol, as if they needed more ae threat generation). But, since the last test patch completely broke Bruiser taunts, I can't even test it out to see.I applaud the attempt to have open testing. There are only 6 tank classes, and the fact you allowed such serious bugs to get through (negating any possibility of testing for one of the 6) so close to going live, is concerning...

CrazyMoogle

01-28-2009, 05:06 PM

Minus to Crushing/Piercing/Slashing skills needs to never appear on a "buff" ever again. Ever.

01-28-2009, 07:01 PM

Nitz is in T1 shard armor, fabled epic, throatripper, Hate tower, Honorbound Vambraces, Tramplers Boots, Signet of Betrayal and then TSO legendary jewelry with heavy dps bias. Test DT / Tower (mit,avoid) No Stance: 4476, 8232 Of Stance: 4476, 7680De Stance: 5282, 9828 DT / Throatripper No Stance: 4476, 5387 Of Stance: 4476, 4836 De Stance: 5282, 6984 From live (same gear, diff food/drink) DT / Tower No Stance: 4556, 8352 Of Stance: 4556, 7704 De Stance: 5362, 9912 DT / Throatripper No Stance: 4556, 5508 Of Stance: 4556, 4872 De Stance: 5362, 7068They are barely different yet we are losing 30% auto attack damage in Def Stance and gaining 5% more squishyness in Off Stance that is not reflected in these numbers. The +8% CAs is a 2% dps improvement at best and that is only while berserk.

demonwr

01-28-2009, 08:14 PM

<cite>Fabricius@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Removed - Kiara</blockquote>Aggro gets harder as groups/raids scale up in damage, not easier. I've seen the same winges over lower level content, where there is even less justification for it.I have 3 complaints from testing:1) People who keep copying toons over and over and pinching all the Adept3's of Restitution I put on the broker2) Not enough people to form raids3) No real attempt to have a single target tank, tank content with an AoE heavy group.And none of those can you blame Aeralik for.</blockquote>I am level 80 Monk, I don't know how you can get anymore single target. Yet I grouped with aeralik as a warlock with myth and full TSO fable set, a swashy, a coercer, a warden and a Guardian. In this group we had by far the least Single target hate compared to other tanks with high end AoE DPS. I seen aggro more manageable than it is on live but it is still lacking somewhat. My main problem is 24% ae attack from wisdom aa line is not a viable AA choice since it will not help me defensively hold ae aggro when in defensive I have a .5 multiplier and crushing/slashing/piercing drop. Over all the changes seem to be incomplete atleast for my class. We seem to be lacking strong AA choices as other classes have. The only choice in AA's I consider strong is Chi. All the others are toss ups with less reward than I expect.We ran Caverns of the Afflicted though this was barely a case of good tanking rather than good healing and killing mobs fast as a run through this instance normally is. We also ran Deep Forge where I tried to tank in offensive and it is fairly difficult to achieve, mid stance I easily had the most aggro but still lost it and defensive I had some trouble single target and AE target. Not sure if it is since monks 55-65% of dps is made through auto attack the .5 multiplier hits us harder compared to others that it is 35-50% of there dps. Bruisers obviously have similar problems but there AA choices seem a little stronger than Monks.As I said as a whole I felt the testing was incomplete and changes atleast for my class was not where I had hoped.So as for your # 3 yeah aeralik himself set up a huge AE dps group with the 2 worst single target tanks in the game right now, he is either brave or stupid for not taking a Zerker, SK or pally.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />-Fabricius-Crushbone-Aftershock</blockquote>And there where more than plenty SKs and me as a ZERk to pick from so it wasn't for a lack of options lol.Poor FAB lol

speedycerv

01-28-2009, 08:33 PM

Noaani

01-29-2009, 01:35 AM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was just concerned on how the overall testing seemed to be possibly skewed toward those in raid gear. What they experience will be different than the average player. Mythicals give bonuses, gear does as well, etc.</blockquote>Testing these changes, if a full group has all RoK legendary they will run in to the same aggro issues that a full group of raid geared players will run in to.A group with a mix of raid and non raid is what can skew the results of a play test, not a group that is all geared to the same level.

Noaani

01-29-2009, 01:55 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>If the developer who is making the change is not present - it is a waste of time - I doubt he reads feedback other than those he gets from his level 80's with mythicals.</blockquote>This is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Have you not seen the chages go in that were a direct result of feedback from players?As to groups at a lower level than 80... have you even tried it on test to compare it to level 80 grouping?I have.The feedback I would have given, if anything, was that low level grouping from a tank perspective is too easy. Fighter taunts are on on the same unmodified curve as damage spells and combat arts for DPS classes, which is great, but fighters get achievements to increase their taunts by a larger amount, and far sooner, than DPS classes can increase their DPS. At level 30, with 35 achievements, a T1 DPS class simply can not pull aggro off any fighter in any situation if the fighter is trying to hold aggro (ie, a warlock can not pull aggro off an assassin on multi mob encounters). This is with as much being even as possible, gear, achievements etc.Assume a fighter and mage have similar hate generation abilities before achievements and gear modifiers (een though not ture, it is tipped in fighter favour). With 21 achievements, a fighter can get 24% taunt crit and 12% base taunt, as well as melee crit, +spell crit, depending on class. With the same number of achievements, a mage can get ~12% spell crit.Since gear does not come in to effect until ~level 65 (as that is when crit bonus first appears on gear), it is not until then that there is any form of balance for low levels. Level 65 -75 is still tipped in the tanks favour, due to most people not having gear with large DPS increasing bonuses (mostly raid dropped), but from 75 onwawrds it starts to become a case of who has the better gear.I have played at several low level ranges on test now, and non of them presented any issues other than tanks being overpowered. I didn'tbother feedbacking that, as I see it as a good thing for new players, it gives them a chance to learn their class before needing to learn to not pull aggro as DPS, or learning to hold aggro as a fighter.

denmom

01-29-2009, 07:34 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was just concerned on how the overall testing seemed to be possibly skewed toward those in raid gear. What they experience will be different than the average player. Mythicals give bonuses, gear does as well, etc.</blockquote>Testing these changes, if a full group has all RoK legendary they will run in to the same aggro issues that a full group of raid geared players will run in to.A group with a mix of raid and non raid is what can skew the results of a play test, not a group that is all geared to the same level.</blockquote>That's what the group was I was in. The Assassin and I were RoK legendary, adept 3. The Assassin had a few masters, I have only two and they're non-heals (dropped in RoK instances). I have one piece of fabled gear on my healer, the nice leather boots from PR. From what I saw and heard in conversation, the others were in raid gear and/or other high end gear and mastered.Given it was fighter changes being tested and not healer, I guess having a skewed group won't matter.

Noaani

01-29-2009, 08:10 AM

For testing aggro changes, yeah, its only fighter and DPS gear that matters.Survivability changes (of which there are very few) are where healer gear comes in to it (as well as tank gear).

Noaani

01-29-2009, 08:13 AM

<cite>Fabricius@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>We ran Caverns of the Afflicted though this was barely a case of good tanking rather than good healing and killing mobs fast as a run through this instance normally is. We also ran Deep Forge where I tried to tank in offensive and it is fairly difficult to achieve, mid stance I easily had the most aggro but still lost it and defensive I had some trouble single target and AE target. </blockquote>I would love to see a group run Nu'Roga with a single target tank, 1 healer and some good DPS, then swapping the tank out for an AE tank. Both groups should clear the zone, but one will take about half the time.Running CoA to test single target tanks on AE encounters is kind of pointless, because those things die before there are any issues.

liveja

01-29-2009, 11:45 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>If the developer who is making the change is not present - it is a waste of time - I doubt he reads feedback other than those he gets from his level 80's with mythicals.</blockquote>As to groups at a lower level than 80... have you even tried it on test to compare it to level 80 grouping?</blockquote>Maroger doesn't do groups, & the objections he has raised have solely related to his perceived ability to solo.

Jrral

01-29-2009, 12:51 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Testing these changes, if a full group has all RoK legendary they will run in to the same aggro issues that a full group of raid geared players will run in to.A group with a mix of raid and non raid is what can skew the results of a play test, not a group that is all geared to the same level.</blockquote>I'd disagree. I'm recalling what I saw progressing in RoK from level 72 mastercrafted gear to legendary. The whole gang I was running with was gaining gear similarly, there were some discrepancies but not a lot. As I got more legendary I found holding aggro and surviving got easier as we got geared up. Damage output was going up, but aggro control was getting easier as I got gear with various effects on it. The healer didn't need to heal me as much, my gear let me absorb damage better. And as our damage output went up the fights got shorter and shorter. In a 30-second fight you don't need to worry nearly as much about aggro as in one that runs a couple of minutes. In short, as we got better gear all around we saw fewer and fewer problems compared to when we were pushing the upper limits of what our gear was good for. The first time I tanked Crypt of Agony I remember it being a slow crawl with me losing aggro on a regular basis, now we kick the door down and stampede through and aggro's rarely a problem except for when the nameds fear me right off. And the big difference is that, while all of us have about the same quality of gear, it's much better gear now than that first time. More aggression, more taunt procs, more damage boosts, more heal boosts, more mitigation, more breathing space for us so mistakes and glitches aren't killers anymore.And I see the same things when I go from group instances back to solo content. Things that were major problems back when I was in T7 mastercrafted and just starting the T8 zones are almost non-issues now that I'm in T8 legendary. And it's again the gear that's making the difference. It's designed for instance mobs, when I go up against solo mobs in it they're simply out of their league and it shows.So I'd have to disagree. When you take raid gear into a group instance, even in a full group, you won't see problems you would see if you were in instance-type gear. Just as if you go soloing in instance-quality gear you won't see problems you would see if you were in mastercrafted or treasured gear.

Mentalep

01-29-2009, 01:43 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>removed -- Kiara</blockquote>So you haven't been part of his tests, you haven't done testing on your own, and you certainly don't know what data he's getting from QA, but you do know which of all that data is reflected in the updates he makes?

liveja

01-29-2009, 01:51 PM

<cite>Mentalepsy wrote:</cite><blockquote>you haven't done testing on your own</blockquote>Maroger tried soloing a few mobs, decided he was doing less damage & taking more, & called it a night.

Mentalep

01-29-2009, 01:53 PM

By the way, where were you during the previous 50 updates that didn't involve community playtesting like this? If you're asserting that Aeralik is paying more attention to X scenario because he's tested it himself, doesn't that mean that X scenario is better tested than it would be in any previous update, and that all other scenarios are equally as well tested as they always have been?How is that a loss?

Dasein

01-29-2009, 01:57 PM

<cite>Mentalepsy wrote:</cite><blockquote>By the way, where were you during the previous 50 updates that didn't involve community playtesting like this? If you're asserting that Aeralik is paying more attention to X scenario because he's tested it himself, doesn't that mean that X scenario is better tested than it would be in any previous update, and that all other scenarios are equally as well tested as they always have been?How is that a loss?</blockquote>There hasn't been a change of this sort since LU13. Previous live updates have had some adjustments to spells, AA lines, items and so on, but never a reworking of a gameplay mechanic like agro control and tanking. Even the chanter updated a couple years back was not on this level and certainly didn't have so broad an effect on how everyone wil lhave to play.

Tandy

01-29-2009, 01:59 PM

Speaking from experience, its best to ignore Maroger. Just pretend he doenst even exist since the forums have no ignore function....something which I really really wish it had. Or someway to 'rate' users posts till they got rated down so low you wouldnt be bothered by them if enough people rated it bad.Some people fixate on one thing and cant give it up. For this update it has definetly brought out the worst in a LOT of people. Emotions just run high for some reason when they tinker with tanks. I wonder whats gonna happen if they ever get to healers...I doubt the noise will be quite so intense then, since not as people care about the healers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Anordil

01-29-2009, 02:10 PM

Maroger, you're making a lot of assumptions and abusing Aeralik unwontedly.You assume that Aeralik (and all the other developers by extension) is engaged in some sort of diabolical plot to ruin the game for anyone who isn't wearing fabled gear, wielding their mythical, and using a complete set of masters. This is incredibly unlikely as what management team in their right mind wilfully engages in activity that would drastically reduce the number of active subscriptions — especially in this economy where people are already trimming their budgets and finding funding to develop new game ideas is like finding Shangri-La. But I digress.Furthermore, you assume that Aeralik is ignoring the data provided by QA, or that QA is not running a multitude of tests, or that there's actually no QA being performed. The first and second are unlikely since QA exists for a reason (and not just for SOE to provide paychecks too) and Devs have managers to whom they report who'd quite likely have a meltdown if processes were not followed (including sign offs by QA).Additionally, you assume that Aeralik is the only developer involved in this and the final arbiter of what's done. I find this highly improbable. Aeralik is part of a team - a team with a manager. A team that he quite likely had to discuss and develop this idea with and get signed off on by management.Ultimately, you've chosen to sit aside and complain about the changes, claiming that your play experience is being ruined and that your class has been destroyed. Yet you've publically admitted that you've not taken part in testing when Aeralik took part on the specious reasoning that your data would be excluded. Rather than work to provide detailed, useful data (based on facts not assumptions, speculation, and other irrelevancies) to prove your point, you've resorted to Cassandra-like cries of angst on the public forums.In short, can you not see how this sort of thing is counter-productive and negatively impacts the entire process?

Dasein

01-29-2009, 02:20 PM

<cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Speaking from experience, its best to ignore Maroger. Just pretend he doenst even exist since the forums have no ignore function....something which I really really wish it had. Or someway to 'rate' users posts till they got rated down so low you wouldnt be bothered by them if enough people rated it bad.Some people fixate on one thing and cant give it up. For this update it has definetly brought out the worst in a LOT of people. Emotions just run high for some reason when they tinker with tanks. I wonder whats gonna happen if they ever get to healers...I doubt the noise will be quite so intense then, since not as people care about the healers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Tanks are in a difficult spot compared to other classes. DPS and healers complement each other, while tanks do not. While there is some competition for DPs in groups and raids, there's also a pretty good spread of utility across the DPS and healer classes. The same is not true with tanks. Thus, any change which endangers the niche a fighter has secured for himself is a major threat. Because fighters do not complement each other, unless you are the best fighter class outthere, there is not a lot of use for your class. Thus, fighters feel far more threatened by changes than other classes.

1000Words

01-29-2009, 03:00 PM

<cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Speaking from experience, its best to ignore Maroger. Just pretend he doenst even exist since the forums have no ignore function....something which I really really wish it had. Or someway to 'rate' users posts till they got rated down so low you wouldnt be bothered by them if enough people rated it bad.Some people fixate on one thing and cant give it up. For this update it has definetly brought out the worst in a LOT of people. Emotions just run high for some reason when they tinker with tanks. I wonder whats gonna happen if they ever get to healers...I doubt the noise will be quite so intense then, since not as people care about the healers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>There was a rating system on the old forums. I imagine it got taken away because of abuse by users. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Kiljoi

01-29-2009, 03:12 PM

How the *BLEEP* can you expect to read good feedback when you have so much completely worthless bickering thats off topic and not in the spirit of honest feedback.GG on derailing an important thread.... /sadkittyface

denmom

01-29-2009, 06:31 PM

<cite>Kiljoi@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>How the *BLEEP* can you expect to read good feedback when you have so much completely worthless bickering thats off topic and not in the spirit of honest feedback.GG on derailing an important thread.... /sadkittyface</blockquote>My post started this derailment, my apologies. I didn't mean to start any arguments, was just voicing a concern and figured it'd fit here because of where it arose from./sigh

Kahling

01-29-2009, 08:21 PM

<cite>Kiljoi@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the changes implemented to the paladin are coming along really nicely. Thx Aeralik for making the feedback from the paly community heard.I felt agro is much more viable then it was prior to this update on test.However, I have a few areas that I think are problematic.Survivability - the change to DF is much appreciated. Stonewall really lacks tho. Maybe increase the number of blocks or change it completely to something like a Guards Dragoons FuryAgro - Fine if you can spec completely for hate and have Faithful Cry, with the masters and AA to do it. Fortunately I do, but those that dont might have some real probs.Also, our 4set bonus... whats the deal with that? It seems bad and really lacking to me. Maybe add something to the set bonus more like the VP bonus... or more survivability thru heals wtc.. idk just throwing out thoughts.Id like to see our heals maybe used faster or perhaps ward castable thru stun/stiffle with added hate. Its not as much of a complaint about our heals power as it is the ability to use them when its needed the most. Oh one last thing - Id like to see the actual hate our heals/wards generate.</blockquote>In an attempt to get it back on the rails.I think your pretty much on the money here Kiljoi. This was my perception of the situation and I too thank Aeralik for the work based on feedback so far. The previous playtest did show that some tweaking to the Paladin class was needed with regards hate and this has been done. Feedback and looking at the plate tank classes has also shown that divine favour needed a boost and it got it. It showed that the new amends needed a shorter recast and it got it. Feedback based on play in a calm manner seems to have been listened to.If you want me to be happy then Im happy as it stands. If I want to be content then I would like to see a few things.1. I would like to see the hate generated by heals so I can parse it and work out where to go with my aa's. Is it worth putting more points in heal crit = more heal = more hate. But how much? Im not asking this just out of fancy but I like to work out whats best and I don't like something like this being all mysterous.2. Let me say one thing, the Guardians 3 block spell is special to them, I don't see them giving it us period. We use healing as our main surviverbility ally. I would personally like to see our shield block stay at 1 block but include a heal on block of say 21% (like divine favour) to 41% ish? (harking back to those of us that will remember amends 41% hate transfere) heal amount not as important than the spell being what it is meant to be , a lifesave giving our healers time to get on top of a situation, if you think your going to die and you use this then a block + heal would do just this. As it is 1 block doesnt feel like you have done much to save yourself so I personally always use this plus our big heal when its up. 1 Block is wishy washy 3 blocks out of the question I imagine, block + heal on block the way to go imho.Another slant on number 2 would be to include a ward of say 21% hp after block, again in keeping with the Paladin class.3, Divine favour - would be nice to see the recast reducable via aa's somewhere on the tree's. Maybe consolidate the two Paladin heal aa's in to one (in the paladin eof tree) i.e 1 aa effects both single target and group target heals freeing up one down the heal line (as there is a heal component to divine favour).4. This isnt really related to feedback on GU51 but more feedback on items, please change the paladin 4 set bonus to at least the same as the Vp 4 set was but to make it slightly more appealing so there is an upgrade path from the VP to TSO add +10% heal crit. No one can then argue that the upgrade from VP to TSO isnt a welcome one. Its simple but very efffective.5. Add a graphic when divine favour goes off so we can see it has. Yeah I know you know when it has gone off but still Everquest 2 feels like such an organic world (for want of a better expresion) it manages to feel more immersive in its combat than any other mmo in my opinion so this silent spell really has me foxed, its like a big secret when it goes off, similar in a sence to the hate on heals in 1 above.6. Remove the cooldown when going from offensive to defensive stance to give us a fighting chance to stay alive when swapping from a dps postion in to a I need to grab agro right now and save the situation becasue the main tank has died position. Cooldown from Def to Off stance is fine and stops people from gaining agro in def then quickly swapping to off stance to get some dps then swapping back to increase agro etc etc. No need to have it both ways to stop this and putting a cool down between off to def stances removes an element where a skillfull tank can swap / grab agro and save the day. Now its going to be swap grab agro and pray u stay up long enough till your def stance comes on. (TBH sk's at this swap will use sk furor, guardians will use shield block (x3), zerkers can use one of their mit increasers etc Paladins are pretty much going to have to rely on the fact they have divine favour on or hope that 1 shield block with no heal from stonewall is enough) I cant comment for monks and bruisers at this stage.7. This is more of a bug fix than anything but I am unclear as to how divine favour works when you have the monk/bruiser altruism on you. Can it or does it go off before altruism? Can we make sure they dont both go off together? My perception of this may be clouded as sometimes they both seem to go off at the same time, it's possible that they are working as intended here and ive just been pummled more than I though when divine aura and altruism have seemed to both go off at once. Clarification on this matter would be appreciated.BTW I don't pretend to have the big picture here, I think each class needs to say what they feel about their class and I wont argue what people say their class needs as I havent studied it to the nth degree.Another thing to think of and we need to accept (and the devs need to accept) that even with the best will in the world there is no getting round the fact that this thing needs to hit live for a complete test. Aeralik has probably been number crunching this lot in his sleep, once it hits live he will have an incomprehensable increase in data to use to tweak things here and there so I doubt that what hits live will necesseraly be what we have in a couple of months time with regards hate figures on taunts etc. I therefore suggest a special forum for a month or so after it hits that is simply entitled "GU51 Feedback" where people can post feedback on it and know its not going to get missed and feel that concearns they have after live are being listened to, not that Im saying they wont be just 99% of this world is perception so I think it would put the player base more at ease to have somewhere to feedback. Other option is to leave it as it is and you will have umpteen forums Gu51 feedback is split between. It could ease the dev job that will be gu51 on live.RegardsKahlingPS Getting rid of amends as a hate transfere tool feels like it did when taking the stabilisers off my bike when I was 4 years old scary but exciting. Its been the crutch of the paladin for too long. Relying on another toons DPS to hold agro is not in my eyes skill. Having the tools to use your own skill to hold your own hate, thats progress.Cant wait to delete my macro - 1. amends, 2. AFK for 10 mins, 3. Come back to loot stuff.PPS the post above was allot longer than I anticipated so if you stayed to the end thanks.