Def Stance : 10% reduction on combat art and spell damage

[Ashdaren]

<p>Ok why not just do that for all class and not only SK?</p><p>Less dps and more defense, that's the deal</p>

[LygerT]

<p>do you look around and read before you post or do you think you play the only class in the game?</p>

[Ashdaren]

<p>it's funny a berserk react like this as this class clearly get a great deal with the defensive stance.</p>

[victer]

<p>Correct me if im wrong but doesnt the -0.5 mele modifier effect CA's? (if your CA is melee based)</p>

[victer]

<p><cite>Ashdaren wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>it's funny a berserk react like this as this class clearly get a great deal with the defensive stance.</p></blockquote><p>whoa whoa whoa.... WHAT?</p><p>The only thing different thing we got is +16% total hate gain. WOWIE! Hate gain only works off of DPS and our dps got shafted in Dstance. Oh and our dammage on takeing hits proc got nerfed to.</p><p>Zerker did not ever use Dstance because our hit rate went so low that it was hard to keep agro without a warden. Now we are FORCED to have the low hit rate while also doing less dammage. And the only hate help we got was to gain hate from doing dammage.</p><p>You sir need to check your stats.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Correct me if im wrong but doesnt the -0.5 mele modifier effect CA's? (if your CA is melee based)</p></blockquote><p>It amounts to about a 25% reduction in auto-attack damage, that's it. (edit: it doesn't affect CAs, but because auto-attack damage is such a significant portion of a fighter's overall DPS, it does have a real impact in damage output).</p>

[victer]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Correct me if im wrong but doesnt the -0.5 mele modifier effect CA's? (if your CA is melee based)</p></blockquote><p>It amounts to about a 25% reduction in auto-attack damage, that's it. (edit: it doesn't affect CAs, but because auto-attack damage is such a significant portion of a fighter's overall DPS, it does have a real impact in damage output).</p></blockquote><p>I belive you im just wondering were you got this info? You are a pally... are you sure you are checking your CA's that have melee dammage?</p><p>I always assumed it effected everything you do that had to do with melee attacks.</p><p>Its too bad im at work or i'd test this out myself right now.</p>

[Elanjar]

<p><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Correct me if im wrong but doesnt the -0.5 mele modifier effect CA's? (if your CA is melee based)</p></blockquote><p>It amounts to about a 25% reduction in auto-attack damage, that's it. (edit: it doesn't affect CAs, but because auto-attack damage is such a significant portion of a fighter's overall DPS, it does have a real impact in damage output).</p></blockquote><p>I belive you im just wondering were you got this info? You are a pally... are you sure you are checking your CA's that have melee dammage?</p><p>I always assumed it effected everything you do that had to do with melee attacks.</p><p>Its too bad im at work or i'd test this out myself right now.</p></blockquote><p>Its not a perfect test but i checked it against a training dummy (stand out of melee range and only use CA's) the CA dps was ~ the same in def stance and in no stance</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I belive you im just wondering were you got this info? You are a pally... are you sure you are checking your CA's that have melee dammage?</p></blockquote><p>Two examples are Cleave Faith and Faith Strike (they're not spells, they're combat arts). Here's how they break down by stance; these are M1 CAs with my achievements factored in:</p><p><strong>No Stance</strong>Cleave Faith: 462-720Faith Strike: 392-629</p><p><strong>Defensive Stance</strong>Cleave Faith: 474-741Faith Strike: 403-648</p><p><strong>Offensive Stance</strong>Cleave Faith: 498-780Faith Strike: 425-684</p><p>As you can see, the damage actually increases slightly in defensive due to stance bonuses, it doesn't decrease. Where you see the decrease in defensive is with your auto-attack damage as reported by /weaponstats.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p>You can see the effects pretty easily. Not at home right now either (sadly) or I'd give you exact numbers.</p><p>The 0.5 only changes autoattack damage though. You can tell by looking at the tooltips for CAs to see how much they'll do and by looking at your persona screen to see how much your autoattack damage will do.</p><p>I love the "clearly get a great deal with the defensive stance". Lol. Sure we do. Losing 1/3 of our berserk procs, our berserk is almost 1/3 less effective, as Victer points out we get hate gain (not base taunt amount like others) but since our DPS is significantly reduced (as is every other fighter's) it still amounts to an overall<strong> reduction </strong>in hate generated via DPS. Yeah. We are clearly living large!  </p>

[Bruener]

<p>I think the idea of the OP is to show that SKs are taking a double whammy to DPS going into defensive.  While all the other tanks lose the same .5 melee damage modifier only the SK is losing the 10% base spell damage as well.  This would be equivalent to warriors and brawler losing 10% CA base damage going into defensive.</p><p>Instead of asking for it to be on all other classes it needs to be removed from the SK defensive stance.</p>

[victer]

<p>Correct me if im wrong but isnt a huge portion of SK dammage done from spells?</p><p>If so then i can see why they felt this change was needed. If they took out the 10% spell hit in d stance then SKs would probly be the highest parseing plate tank in defensive and offensive.</p>

[victer]

<p>Just a few things I'd like to clear up.</p><p>I'm going to compare raid dps parses from SK's and Zerkers. I'm compareing these two because im assumeing these are the 2 "offensive" plate tanks.</p><p>What I mainly was looking at is what percentage of the output dammage is from autoattacks and what is from CA's/Spells.</p><p><a href="http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/dustincromer101/palacehigh.jpg" target="_blank">Here</a> is a single mob parse by a zerker.</p><ul><li>10.8k parse. Autoattack = 65%.... everything else 35%</li></ul><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4771" target="_blank">Here</a> is a zonewide (meaning his single parses are higher) by a shadowknight.</p><ul><li>12.2k parse. Autoattack = 28%.... everything else 72%</li></ul><p>Some things to note:</p><ol><li>These are single pulls. If there were multiple mobs the zerker Autoattack % would be much much much higher.</li><li>The majority of all types of dammage from the zerker is melee. This is our CA's. Our spell procs on items are doing more dps then our CA's (with 0 spell crit).</li><li>The majority of all dammage (and types of dammage) from SK is from spells and procs. SK's are procing for higher numbers because they take advantage of spell crit. </li></ol><p>So you are telling me that SK's (who use autoattack for the least of thier dammage and have not much to worry about the -0.5 melee modifier) should have this -10% spell dammage effect taken off of thier new DStance? We are not even sure this -10% will effect your item procs.</p><p>If you ask me 10% is not enough and it should match the difference that the -0.5 melee modifier makes on autoattack (about 30%).</p><p>Like it is on test currently SK's are the highest plate tank DPS in offensive and possibly DStance. Take away the -10% spell dammge or add -10% to CA's for other fighters and they are for sure the highest parseing plate tank in Dstance hands down.</p><p>To be completely honest i dont care if they make my CA's hit for less cause they are garbage already. But what i am concerned about is makeing the gap between SK DPS vs all other plate tanks even wider.</p>

[Tandy]

<p>the +hate gain works off taunts. So by having +16 hate gain and aggression gain your taunts will be resisted rarely and generate great hate for a zerker. regardless of your hit rate.</p><p>thats not saying the  - to melee skills is a good thing...just that regardless of that you will hold hate well.</p>

[victer]

<p><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the +hate gain works off taunts.</p></blockquote><p>where is this confirmed?</p><p>There are patch notes stateing that hate gain does not effect taunts anymore.</p>

[Tandy]

<p><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the +hate gain works off taunts.</p></blockquote><p>where is this confirmed?</p><p>There are patch notes stateing that hate gain does not effect taunts anymore.</p></blockquote><p>The patch notes I read for that said +hate gain doesnt effect taunt adjustments anymore. I didnt take that to mean they had no effect on taunts at all.</p><p>I would 'assume' based on the way the def stance works and the few items that have +hate gain that they make taunts better. Maybe a dev can post to clear it up, but thats what I saw when I did my testing. My taunts got bigger with it on. And frankly if +hate gain didnt effect something about taunts at all, that would make this whole update kinda pointless. So hopefully that can be answered by someone.</p>

[victer]

<p><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>but thats what I saw when I did my testing. My taunts got bigger with it on.</p></blockquote><p>make sure whatever you are using to test this does not also raise your agresstion because agresstion WILL now raise your taunts and thier resitability.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just a few things I'd like to clear up.</p><p>I'm going to compare raid dps parses from SK's and Zerkers. I'm compareing these two because im assumeing these are the 2 "offensive" plate tanks.</p><p>What I mainly was looking at is what percentage of the output dammage is from autoattacks and what is from CA's/Spells.</p><p><a href="http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/dustincromer101/palacehigh.jpg" target="_blank">Here</a> is a single mob parse by a zerker.</p><ul><li>10.8k parse. Autoattack = 65%.... everything else 35%</li></ul><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4771" target="_blank">Here</a> is a zonewide (meaning his single parses are higher) by a shadowknight.</p><ul><li>12.2k parse. Autoattack = 28%.... everything else 72%</li></ul><p>Some things to note:</p><ol><li>These are single pulls. If there were multiple mobs the zerker Autoattack % would be much much much higher.</li><li>The majority of all types of dammage from the zerker is melee. This is our CA's. Our spell procs on items are doing more dps then our CA's (with 0 spell crit).</li><li>The majority of all dammage (and types of dammage) from SK is from spells and procs. SK's are procing for higher numbers because they take advantage of spell crit. </li></ol><p>So you are telling me that SK's (who use autoattack for the least of thier dammage and have not much to worry about the -0.5 melee modifier) should have this -10% spell dammage effect taken off of thier new DStance? We are not even sure this -10% will effect your item procs.</p><p>If you ask me 10% is not enough and it should match the difference that the -0.5 melee modifier makes on autoattack (about 30%).</p><p>Like it is on test currently SK's are the highest plate tank DPS in offensive and possibly DStance. Take away the -10% spell dammge or add -10% to CA's for other fighters and they are for sure the highest parseing plate tank in Dstance hands down.</p><p>To be completely honest i dont care if they make my CA's hit for less cause they are garbage already. But what i am concerned about is makeing the gap between SK DPS vs all other plate tanks even wider.</p></blockquote><p>This is a very [Removed for Content] poor comparison.  There is so much inaccuracies that it isn't even funny.  First of all you take a single fight from a Zerker and compare it to a ZW of trash for a SK.  You have no idea how many mobs the SK was pulling at one time.  Also, was the Bezerker tanking?  The SK was and a good chunk of his dps came from the feedback from the mobs hitting him.  Those are just a couple things that stand out right away in your little post.  After looking even further it is obvious that the Bezerker is DW'ing.  If the Bezerker is going to be tanking and in defensive is he going to be DW'ing?</p><p>You basically through 2 totally different types of parses together and said see SKs should get nerfed more.  I am sure I can dig up some vastly different parses that can say the complete opposite.  As a SK about 45% of my DPS comes from auto attack.  The next highest on my parse is my self proc buff, which guess what is non-existent on the defensive stance with LU51, instead replaced with a taunt proc.  Next would be the buffs like PoTM and PoM which other classes are putting up.  Like a Bezerker with their CA damage, actual SK spells do not make up a whole lot of our dps.  This of course changing on larger groups of mobs much like your auto attack damage gets larger the more mobs.</p><p>The -10% base spell damage is a double whammy.</p>

[victer]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First of all you take a single fight from a Zerker and compare it to a ZW of trash for a SK. You have no idea how many mobs the SK was pulling at one time. </p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">True... we really dont know how many he's pulling same time but dont tell me if you can do 12k ZW that one of your parses isnt gonna smoke 10k. Which btw was the self proclaimed best single parse by that zerker. </span></p><p>Also, was the Bezerker tanking?  The SK was and a good chunk of his dps came from the feedback from the mobs hitting him. </p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Im not completely sure but it looks like it since our hit/taunt from inc damage proced 6 times.</span></p><p>After looking even further it is obvious that the Bezerker is DW'ing.  If the Bezerker is going to be tanking and in defensive is he going to be DW'ing?</p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Depends on if his healers are cool with it. In most raids probly not. But if he does so that he can parse like that doesnt that put him at a disavantage before we even look at the damage?</span></p><p>As a SK about 45% of my DPS comes from auto attack. </p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">I have NEVER seen my autoattack be that low since i have started useing my parser. I'm usually about 60-70% on singles. On multiples it's easly 75-85%+. </span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Im guessing a sk on multiples has his autoattack go dramaticly down and his spells go dramaticly up.Which means on multiple mobs the -0.5 melee multiplier pwons my face with 20-30% of the very high majority of my damage being taken from me and you are taking a 10% hit on most of your dammage. </span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">If they did nothing to your spell dammage and gave you back your measly 10% on Dstance then the high majority of your dammage goes through. </span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">In other words if they remove the 10% hit on your dstance then you hit 100% on most of your dammage and the rest takes a 20-30% hit. Me? The majority of my dammage is always cut down 20-30% </span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;"><span style="color: #3366ff;">I dont see how reduceing your spell dammage is not fair. At only 10% I acutally see it as advantage SK. I think it should be more like 15-25%.</span></span></p></blockquote><p>But hey heres a wakky thought.... why not just get rid of the -melee modifier on everyones Dstance and also the 10% spell hit on SK dstance? </p><p>Isnt that the fairest thing of all?</p>

[Couching]

<p>The issue of why sk dps is incredibly high in raid is due to their high int and spell crit. They got 68% spell crit from crusader tree.</p><p>With raid gear and group buff, they can get 90% spell crit easily or even 100%+ spell crit.</p><p>They get double to triple benefit from gear proc and buff proc than warrior and brawler.</p><p>Yes, they have less melee crit and DA than warrior and brawler and deal less melee damage..</p><p>However, the extra proc damage they got is 2-3 times of their lose in melee damage.</p><p>The 0.5 multipler and 10% spell damage reduction is a joke to them. Their biggest dps part in raid is not spell nor auto attack, it's proc damage and it's untouched.</p>

[MirageKnight]

<p>I don't think any tank would wear damage proc gears for tanking at first place, and especially after this comming change if you have played in test server. Nor have SK in dps group to tank in defensive if raid leader wants SK to tank.If tanking in defensive then SK's job is tanking (and thats their primary role). SK would wear defensive proc gears than damage dealing items, and thats the point of this comming change.</p><p>There are many CA triggered proc as well as spells. If talking about what can be done to increase dps then there is no point in your arguments as any other fighters can do the same by wearing proper gears.</p><p>Another thing is while paladins are on the same boat as SK, they are not taking same penalty. I'm not saying paladins should have same penalty, but I would wonder why only SK is taking the double penalty.</p><p>If many people think SK's dps isn't based on melee then SK should have less penalty on auto attack while having spell damage reduced. I would think that would be more fair than giving double negatives to SK's defensive stance.Or just give every fighter's defensive stance to have same penalty as whole, 10% ca/spell dmg reduced and 0.5 melee multiplier reduction, ripping dps of tanks while on defensive which is one point of this change for giving difference from offensive stance.</p>

[Elanjar]

<p>what should reallly be done here is take a similarly geared zerker and sk, go out and pull the same single mob like 5 times (in defensive) then do the same thing on live. And see what the change in dps of each is. if the % is about the same then I'd say its all fine and dandy. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Couching]

<p><cite>MirageKnight wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't think any tank would wear damage proc gears for tanking at first place, and especially after this comming change if you have played in test server. Nor have SK in dps group to tank in defensive if raid leader wants SK to tank.If tanking in defensive then SK's job is tanking (and thats their primary role). SK would wear defensive proc gears than damage dealing items, and thats the point of this comming change.</p><p>There are many CA triggered proc as well as spells. If talking about what can be done to increase dps then there is no point in your arguments as any other fighters can do the same by wearing proper gears.</p><p>Another thing is while paladins are on the same boat as SK, they are not taking same penalty. I'm not saying paladins should have same penalty, but I would wonder why only SK is taking the double penalty.</p><p>If many people think SK's dps isn't based on melee then SK should have less penalty on auto attack while having spell damage reduced. I would think that would be more fair than giving double negatives to SK's defensive stance.Or just give every fighter's defensive stance to have same penalty as whole, 10% ca/spell dmg reduced and 0.5 melee multiplier reduction, ripping dps of tanks while on defensive which is one point of this change for giving difference from offensive stance.</p></blockquote><p>The parses have shown the hard cold truth: Most part of sk damage in defensive is from proc damage rather than auto attack nor spells.</p><p>If you can access to high end gear, you will see that you can get both defensive and damage proc on the same gear or gear has very nice defensive bonus with damage proc.</p><p>For melee tanks, yes, we can use those gear too. The problem is that we have little to zero spell crit and very low int. The proc damage is way below the damage that sk can get from the same gear.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>honestly, all i'm seeing is crying from the SKs here, you already know that even a 10% drop to EVERY ca/auto attack would still put you above every other plate tank in the game.</p><p>funny though that you brought up zerkers again since i am one, try playing one defensively and realize how much we suck as an "offensive fighter". but i'm not making threads about it because i don't think it's a huge issue.</p>

[Ashdaren]

<p>The bigger the dmg nerf in defensive, the better we are in offensive for offtanking...</p>

[Seolta]

<p>Berserker's have innately better defensive capabilities than SK's, of COURSE we should have the edge in DPS...</p><p>Poor Zerkers...in the limelight for so long they just can't stand to see SK's actually tolerated by raid guilds now.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Berserker's have innately better defensive capabilities than SK's, of COURSE we should have the edge in DPS...</p><p>Poor Zerkers...in the limelight for so long they just can't stand to see SK's actually tolerated by raid guilds now.</p></blockquote><p>lol. The limelight?</p>

[Bremer]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Berserker's have innately better defensive capabilities than SK's, of COURSE we should have the edge in DPS...</p><p>Poor Zerkers...in the limelight for so long they just can't stand to see SK's actually tolerated by raid guilds now.</p></blockquote><p>lol. The limelight?</p></blockquote><p>Beserkers where always on raids the tank hardly anybody took as MT, now SKs are stealing this glorious title <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>