The Fighter Revamp [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Ama

01-26-2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:Your taunts will be more effective than just saying, “Your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries!”End Quote (Atleast I got a chuckle off of this)I'm very very dissapointed that they are implementing in a hate meter. It needs to be a bit of a mystery in how much hate you are generating towards the mob. Now it's going to be playing monitor the meter making it way to easy for people to play tanks. SK Upgrades:<li>The Dark Caress and Unholy Weapon lines have merged into the offensive and defensive stances. </li><li>Defensive stance line will lower damage but increase threat output. </li><li>Offensive stance boosts damage slightly but reduces hate gain. </li><li>Sickening Circle will also increase threat now. </li><li>The Kick line now has a threat component. </li>I'm also dissapointed in this and now I am out about 30-40 plat for those master I spells that I bought. As a SK with the recent upgrades I have no problem holding aggro even for AoE fights. Here I just see this as piling on more and more hoping to "ease" the problems of the SK community. Personally I see the merging of Unholy weapon as a real true nerf instead of an upgrade. I truely hope that i'm wrong and that Unholy weapon's damage was kept intact and just integrated into the offensive stance. Sadly even with these changes I do not see a reason for raiding groups both hardcore and semi-hardcore to bring SKs into the fray. Again my biggest dissapointment is the fact we now have a "hate meter" which gives a read to people. This is very demoralizing having learned all of these strategies and techniques to master hate management. All these techniques are worthless now cause I can look up at the little UI bobble *o that technique generates 50points of hate i'll remember to be at 10-15 before I try it again.*

Mikai

01-26-2009, 06:48 PM

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Quote:Your taunts will be more effective than just saying, “Your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries!”End Quote (Atleast I got a chuckle off of this)</blockquote>You're not the only one. I actually considered making macros on my Pally so everytime I taunt, little Knightkai would say that, but I figured it would probably get pretty old pretty fast. Might be fun to do once or twice, though. lolThere was always a sort of appeal to the mystery behind hate and aggro. You've got to be skilled to do your job while letting the tank keep aggro. As a healer, it took practice to heal, fight (when no one else is dying, of course), and use my detaunt wisely, given it's long reuse timer. In the early days, I easily grabbed agro, but as I grouped and took advice from those who had played longer than I, I learned.I will await the implentation of the hate meter to see how I like it. I think for those of us who have learned without that tool, we're out nothing for having learned those skills the hard way. I also think that it can be a learning tool for newer, greener players, provided they actually learn from it. Yeah, it adds to the "easy-mode"-ness that SOE has been gradually implementing recently. But, I think there's some room for change. I can't imagine what I'd do without my power meter, for instance. It's another tool that helps us manage how we play our characters. I think the hate meter could be viewed in the same light.

Ama

01-26-2009, 07:39 PM

<cite>Kaidia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Quote:Your taunts will be more effective than just saying, “Your father was a hamster and your mother smelled of elderberries!”End Quote (Atleast I got a chuckle off of this)</blockquote>You're not the only one. I actually considered making macros on my Pally so everytime I taunt, little Knightkai would say that, but I figured it would probably get pretty old pretty fast. Might be fun to do once or twice, though. lolThere was always a sort of appeal to the mystery behind hate and aggro. You've got to be skilled to do your job while letting the tank keep aggro. As a healer, it took practice to heal, fight (when no one else is dying, of course), and use my detaunt wisely, given it's long reuse timer. In the early days, I easily grabbed agro, but as I grouped and took advice from those who had played longer than I, I learned.I will await the implentation of the hate meter to see how I like it. I think for those of us who have learned without that tool, we're out nothing for having learned those skills the hard way. I also think that it can be a learning tool for newer, greener players, provided they actually learn from it. Yeah, it adds to the "easy-mode"-ness that SOE has been gradually implementing recently. But, I think there's some room for change. I can't imagine what I'd do without my power meter, for instance. It's another tool that helps us manage how we play our characters. I think the hate meter could be viewed in the same light.</blockquote>Ya to me that's the anoyance there in that many of us had to grow up learning these skills. Still remember playing on my SK when it was the least favorited tank in the game. Had people baffled saying "SK's can't tank how the heck can you tank?". With the recent SK hate revamp it was made way to easy and went up against a mythicaled, avatar fabled illusionist. There was only a handful of times he managed to pull aggro off of me.Sadly with the hate meter and these revamps it'll just be a 3-4 button press process to maintain aggro. If the hate meter wasn't being implemented I would be a little estatic. However I do believe with this hate meter EQ2 has transitioned into the "Easy Mode" of gameplay. After this i'm just waiting for a damage meter and healing meter in game in a numbered format this way ACT isn't needed. You can now get a cycle going 10x faster than the rest of us had to learn.

Freliant

01-26-2009, 07:57 PM

Of all people, I thought Amana would have tested these changes without chiming in on such a public topic. Here's a few things:The agro meter is not a "meter" as much as a temperature gauge that doesn't go above 100. If you are at 100, that means you are the one currently with agro. As a tank, either it says you are at 100, or another number... which is... guess what, the same thing you have now. If you have the mob targeted, either its targeting you, or its targeting someone else. The meter will only tell you how far behind the person with agro you are... So, lets say a mage just did a big nuke. Now the agro meter says 97% and the mob is targeting the mage. You do a small taunt, and you have the agro. Let say the mob mem-whiped... you are at 5% so now you know you have to pile on all your taunts and even your position swaps to get hate back to 100%. If you are a dps class, now you know relative to the tank how much hate you have... this is the big change. Now a dps class knows that if its at 99% to NOT lay on that huge 50k nuke, and instead to do a detaunt... or get ready with a big nuke and a hate position swap. Or if it shows 25%, they know to turn up the head cause the tank has the mob solidly on him.This is a good change in my opinion.As for "Tanking only being something you do by pressing 2 or 3 buttons all the time"... nope. That is not the case either. There are many classes that lost their agro dumps... this means that if you just spam 2 or 3 buttons, you will not be an effective tank vs any decent dps player. Lets face it though, classes like paladins HAD the 2 or 3 button tanking profession since they would amend the highest dps of the group, and just cycle through their taunts when they wanted to keep solid agro without worrying about ever loosing it. This change will make them really tank, and will make tanking easier for the rest of the fighter classes.And yes, the new buffs are upgrades to the old ones. In defensive stance, you are more agro prone and can hold agro much better than before... so now you can focus on changing your AAs to survivability instead of dps... and in offensive stance, you can do much more dps than you did before, which means that fighters can actually be used for medium dps when not in a tanking role.. something that was just not possible before. I mean, honestly, would you ever take more than one guardian to a group... or more than one fighter (brawlers excluded). No, because you know they would just weigh down the group and not contribute anything significant. Well, that has now changed.

Jenkin

01-27-2009, 01:47 AM

As a swashy, I have to say the threat meter is going to be very useful. I'm not that fussed about the "mystery" of aggro, and if anything the skills I have learned in threat reduction and avoiding agro will only be confirmed by the meter.I'm pretty sure I read in the notes that the meter can also be toggled, using ctrl-t, so purists can just opt out and carry on as before.I can't really comment on the Fighter revamp as my little Berserker is only level 30-something, but I'd like to see the same sort of thought being put into other the other class archetypes.

Risingmyst

01-27-2009, 04:07 AM

I must protest this change or rather the classification of the tank groups.. As a Paladin I like to both Tank and Offtank (and the occassional backup healer) With these new changes Paladin heals addition to hate will undermine that ability to be a backup healer (YES I know.. we arent anything compared to true healers, stop interrupting). Also where SOE said this and I quote: "Guardians, Paladins, and Monks will fall into the single target group". My issue is this this.. WHERE ONE EARTH do the DEV team come up with that crud??? Have they looked at a Paladins CA list? Half of our attacks are AOE. I have 6 AOE attacks that can do some serious damage and if I ever throw out 2, I will often time pull the aggro off the MT and the surrounding encounter. The only way that a Paladin will EVER become a single target tank is if SOE kills off our AOEs and I honestly would leave EQ2 if SOE pulled that. I also am really disappointed with this:<li>The Blessing of the Penitent and Blessed Weapon lines have been merged into the offensive and defensive stances. </li>When this occurs, we will lose a good portion of our buffs that make us decent in a group. Take away our Blessing line and put it in Defence (that is my guess) and same with Blessed Weapon line in offence. So we lose more because we now have to chose if we want the extra health and STR we have to go Defence, on the other hand if we want the additional proc, we go offence. Honestly not making me happy.. in offence I like the extra health, yeah its not a lot but every bit helps. And I dont want to lose that extra proc when I am in Defence.One last complaint in response to someone saying Paladins had no trouble holding aggro... What planet are you on? on a equally speced and geared SK, 9/10 times the SK will out aggro the Pally.. Amends half the time wont hold as for the most part, if a DPSer has Amends on him/her, they think they can just NUKE till the..... something comes home. And Amends only works on 1, yes ONE toon. If you have a normal group 1 Tank, 1 healer 1 Scout DPS 1 Mage DPS,1 Utility, and the last slot either to another healer or DPS, the Paladin will only be able to put Amends on ONE toon (typically the Scout or Mage) that leaves a Healer, Additional DPS and Utility. For the most part Utility classes are decent DPS as well and a healer can pull some aggro from just the heals, you also are missing that extra toon. All that Hate adds up.. I am not saying that a Paladin sucks and SKs get all the love.. Not at all. I just want a little love too. And for those that dont NORMALLY Play Paladins, dont say what you dont know.. Unless you have TOTAL mastered out gear and spells, we cant hold a candle to most other tank classes with aggro. And MOST Tanks DONT HAVE MASTERED GEAR. I am sick of Raiders getting all the love. 92% of the game does not hardcore raid and cannot afford to spend 30+ plat for a Master spell (EXC Server) (Oh yeah dont go well why are you one EXC Server, you can just pay money for the plat. ONE I dont have enough REAL money to waste on plat. And TWO I didnt know it was EXC when I joined the server 4 years ago)Okay enough ranting.. I hope I got my point across. I do like the threat meter.. Might make things easier to see how much threat one has, but the other stuff I talked enough about.

JinjAB

01-27-2009, 07:57 AM

<cite>Risingmyst@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I must protest this change or rather the classification of the tank groups.. As a Paladin I like to both Tank and Offtank (and the occassional backup healer) With these new changes Paladin heals addition to hate will undermine that ability to be a backup healer (YES I know.. we arent anything compared to true healers, stop interrupting). Also where SOE said this and I quote: "Guardians, Paladins, and Monks will fall into the single target group". My issue is this this.. WHERE ONE EARTH do the DEV team come up with that crud??? Have they looked at a Paladins CA list? Half of our attacks are AOE. I have 6 AOE attacks that can do some serious damage and if I ever throw out 2, I will often time pull the aggro off the MT and the surrounding encounter. The only way that a Paladin will EVER become a single target tank is if SOE kills off our AOEs and I honestly would leave EQ2 if SOE pulled that.</blockquote>/agree - I don't want to only be useful against single or multi mobs.Because I am a monk, does not mean that I can't reach and annoy more than one mob, where is the sense in that. So to counter it, we have "faster" single target taunts that cost less power. Why?... so as we can tab through mobs and spam our taunt.In order to hold agro against...multi mobs! Like..Huh? I thought just now I was a single target tank, yet against multi mobs I can hit taunt faster for less power, cool, now I am a multi target tank aswell? *blinks* Silly me, I would have thought that by equipping my "very long reach two handed weapon that sits in my bag gathering dust_01" that I could keep the attention of more mobs in an encounter, rather than shouting "you smell of elderberries" really loud in Common (to a goblin/Yha-lei, etc) and stabbing with my little dagger, while hiding being a tower shield...

Errolflynn

01-27-2009, 08:25 AM

What I want to know is why are both the good aligned tank classes designated single target and both the evil ones multi target? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" />

Ama

01-27-2009, 10:58 AM

<cite>Errolflynn@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I want to know is why are both the good aligned tank classes designated single target and both the evil ones multi target? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Zerker is neutral only SK and Bruiser are evil aligned. Also to me personally I don't have to test this to know it pretty much sucks. Players should have a threat meter built into them as they learn the game. With this I see it as nothing more than an excuse to slack off instead of having to learn the game like the veterans did. Don't care if it shows threat potential, threat level, threat position, or whatever any meter showing your threat is a tool that should not be needed. Guess i'll just wait for the healing meter and dps meters so that the game can be played on easy mode.

Errolflynn

01-27-2009, 11:07 AM

Necrotherian

01-27-2009, 11:10 AM

<cite>EQ2Players</cite><Quote>Guardians, Paladins, and Monks will fall into the single target group. They will be the most effective at engaging a single NPC. In raid situations, this would mean that you’d want one of these guys to keep the main NPC’s attention. The same would hold true running through an instance where there is a main NPC who has minions as backup.Berserkers, Shadowknights, and Bruisers are group target (or AE) tanks. They will be the most effective at scooping up several NPCs and keeping them occupied. They’ll be excellent at off-tanking, but by no means does that mean that they can’t be the main tank in appropriate situations.</Quote>With the exception of the Neutral classes, there has always been parity between good and evil members of a sub-archetype. Monks and Bruisers, Paladins and Shadowknights, Mystics and Defilers, Templars and Inquisitors, each had its own abilities which differentiated it from its opposite, but it still accomplished the mission of its sub-archetype. A brawler is just that. One who brawls. I have never heard of one target against another being called a brawl. You may want to send this one back to the drawing board for a little bit more tweaking. I have no issue with a sub-archetype being given a mission which includes either group or single target tactics, as long as both classes within that sub-archetype have the same mission.

Freliant

01-27-2009, 11:44 AM

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guess i'll just wait for the healing meter and dps meters so that the game can be played on easy mode.</blockquote>The reason they are not placed is because they already exist. The parser shows dps and healing done, and people could work with it to find out what is most effective. However, threat, a characteristic very important to keeping a group alive, was largely secretive. There was minimal knowledge of how well this was being done except for a "feeling". Now its very transparent. Hate will show up on parses and on the screen as yellow letters, and you will be able to see when you "spiked" your dps, or when you evened it out and so on. We can do so much more with dps with this change. And on top of this, now the devs can get even more creative with raid and group encounters by making scripts that take into account your % hate on the meter.

Vulkan_NTooki

01-27-2009, 11:57 AM

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Errolflynn@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I want to know is why are both the good aligned tank classes designated single target and both the evil ones multi target? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Zerker is neutral only SK and Bruiser are evil aligned. Also to me personally I don't have to test this to know it pretty much sucks. Players should have a threat meter built into them as they learn the game. With this I see it as nothing more than an excuse to slack off instead of having to learn the game like the veterans did. Don't care if it shows threat potential, threat level, threat position, or whatever any meter showing your threat is a tool that should not be needed. Guess i'll just wait for the healing meter and dps meters so that the game can be played on easy mode.</blockquote>You know.. u can turn it off... yay.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /> You will still have the mystery.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ama

01-27-2009, 12:48 PM

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Errolflynn@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I want to know is why are both the good aligned tank classes designated single target and both the evil ones multi target? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Zerker is neutral only SK and Bruiser are evil aligned. Also to me personally I don't have to test this to know it pretty much sucks. Players should have a threat meter built into them as they learn the game. With this I see it as nothing more than an excuse to slack off instead of having to learn the game like the veterans did. Don't care if it shows threat potential, threat level, threat position, or whatever any meter showing your threat is a tool that should not be needed. Guess i'll just wait for the healing meter and dps meters so that the game can be played on easy mode.</blockquote>You know.. u can turn it off... yay.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /> You will still have the mystery.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Shouldn't be implemented in the first place yay for a mystery for everyone and having them learn how to play the game. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />As for the healing meter ya sure they are already inplace with ACT, but hey have SoE slap the guy who made it 5grand plug the code into the game put in a UI for it and boom your gtg. No need for pasting a code into chat finding your name. You can see exactly what your dps/healing output is and what to do to raise it. Guess i'm just an old dog who was taught he needed to learn things. With this modern age MMOing players don't want to learn and want to have everything infront of them. Gotta have a hate meter, hate %, hate output, Hate generation, etc... exactly detailed. *shrug* So dies the age of MMOs making way for the single player online games where it must be set to easy mode.

Seraki

01-27-2009, 02:51 PM

Actually the threat gage is the best idea of the revamp. Not long ago they did something similar in WoW and it was hailed as one of the best things they have ever done by the community not long after. The truth is most players do not want that mystery of aggro. What this does is save a lot of people from downloading and maintaining an add on. Less of the add on helps with server stability. As for the SK CA merges, those kind of things tend to not go well. It would have been better to add a new combat art than potentially disable some of the values of the old ones for a merge. Also I noticed that threat is now the exchange for the SK instead of help with ability to take more damage in the stance change. I do see this as a nerf. The SK should not have to sacrifice health for hate. Also the underlying suggestion is that aggro management has been taken more away from the aid of other classes and more in the hands of the tanks. I can see a kind of good/evil outcome from this. For one thing it nudges more in the direction of less dependency on specific classes for necessary outcomes. On the other hand though it forces those classes who had that comfortable advantage in their favor to reevaluate their place in the world.

Mikai

01-27-2009, 03:11 PM

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote>With this I see it as nothing more than an excuse to slack off instead of having to learn the game like the veterans did. </blockquote>It's impossible for anyone to learn the game as "the veterans did". Hell, nothing is the same as the old days (not that I was there personally, but I've heard). You don't hear anyone complaing about how no one crafts like the veterans did. Cuz the old way sucked. I'm sure a few capped crafters complained at having to work at it while everyone else can chill, but you can bet your <<suitably appropriate replacement for a word they won't let me use>> they didn't complain when they had to level up their other crafters after the fact.We, as people, have a resistance to change. That doesn't mean change is bad however. Hell, I bemoaned the implementation of in-game voice chat when it first came out, thinking it couldn't be as good as what we had and it's just another "feature" to clog up the game........and I was wrong.I'll bet that some day when you have a lowbie tank grouped with a newbie warlock, you'll be loving that threat meter, if for no other reason but it gives the lock virtually no excuse for stealing your agro. Your healers will thank you as well. =)Course, I come at this from a healer's perspective. I hate when the unspecting, high dps squishy attracts the attention of some big ugly dragon. At least now when I choose not to heal them (sometimes for legitimate reasons....lol), I can say they should have been paying more attention to their meter.

Necrotherian

01-27-2009, 03:20 PM

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Errolflynn@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I want to know is why are both the good aligned tank classes designated single target and both the evil ones multi target? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Zerker is neutral only SK and Bruiser are evil aligned. Also to me personally I don't have to test this to know it pretty much sucks. Players should have a threat meter built into them as they learn the game. With this I see it as nothing more than an excuse to slack off instead of having to learn the game like the veterans did. Don't care if it shows threat potential, threat level, threat position, or whatever any meter showing your threat is a tool that should not be needed. Guess i'll just wait for the healing meter and dps meters so that the game can be played on easy mode.</blockquote>You know.. u can turn it off... yay.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /> You will still have the mystery.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Shouldn't be implemented in the first place yay for a mystery for everyone and having them learn how to play the game. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />As for the healing meter ya sure they are already inplace with ACT, but hey have SoE slap the guy who made it 5grand plug the code into the game put in a UI for it and boom your gtg. No need for pasting a code into chat finding your name. You can see exactly what your dps/healing output is and what to do to raise it. Guess i'm just an old dog who was taught he needed to learn things. With this modern age MMOing players don't want to learn and want to have everything infront of them. Gotta have a hate meter, hate %, hate output, Hate generation, etc... exactly detailed. *shrug* So dies the age of MMOs making way for the single player online games where it must be set to easy mode. </blockquote>A few things bothered me about this series of quotes. Though most are directed at Amana's posts, that in no way is meant to be construed as an personal attack upon Amana.Amana: In your reply to <a href="mailto:ErrolFlynn@Befallen">ErrolFlynn@Befallen</a>, you stated that Zerker was Neutral, and that SK and Bruiser were evil-aligned. <a href="mailto:EF@B">EF@B</a> stated that both good classes were designated as single target and that both evil classes were multi-target. As one in each is neutral, Guardian and Berzerker, the both that <a href="mailto:EF@B">EF@B</a> was referring to must have been Paladin and Monk on the good side, with Shadowknight and Bruiser representing the evil side. Had <a href="mailto:EF@B">EF@B</a> stated that all were, I could understand the need to correct him. He didn't, so there was no reason to quote and make an assertion that looked like a correction, but that merely proved his point.Additionally, you then went on to state that this isn't necessary, which I agree with, and that it will suck, which I don't. None of the tools we use is necessary. There is no need to have ACT to track heals and DPS, there is no need to use EQ2MAPS to keep your maps updated, there is no need to d/l ProfitUIReborn to have a more efficient UI. In fact, while I am on the subject, there is really no need to use many of the in game functions. You can do without an ingame map, right? Quest Helper, who needs it? Nobody needs to use the /loc function. But we do, in fact use them. Why? Because it makes the game more enjoyable, or it makes our playtime more efficient. I have been in the game long enough to remember the old crafting system. You can't convince me that the old way was better, just because it wasn't as easy as it is now. It is merely different. Times change. Most of the things we take for granted in real life were Science Fiction a mere 50 years ago. Sure, people had to learn to get by, but does that make then any better than now, just because life is easier now. I don't believe that it does.Vulkan: No matter what they add to the game, there will always be those heralding the end of the Golden Age of MMO gaming.To all: I'm not naive enough to think that anything I have written will change the mind of anyone who posts in this forum. There will always be those that cling to their views with the tenacity of an ostrich which has stuck its head in the sand. Furthermore, I have been around the block enough times to realize that someone will take something I have said out of context, or to selectively quote me by removing those inconvenient words which do not support their viewpoint.Trolls: Flame...on!

Kordran

01-27-2009, 03:33 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>There was minimal knowledge of how well this was being done except for a "feeling". Now its very transparent. Hate will show up on parses and on the screen as yellow letters, and you will be able to see when you "spiked" your dps, or when you evened it out and so on.</blockquote>It's not completely transparent. The threat generated from heals is still something that is opaque; the exact heal/threat ratio is unknown and it's unlogged. For example, recently Aeralik mentioned that the threat generated by the Paladin's heals were increased by 300% ... but the question is, 300% of what? None of that information is parseable.<blockquote>And on top of this, now the devs can get even more creative with raid and group encounters by making scripts that take into account your % hate on the meter.</blockquote>God, I hope not. The last thing I want to see is another fight where a fail condition is reached if non-Fighters who's names begin with the letters G,R,S,T and X fall outside the boundries of 30-60% threat, while harvesting shinies and periodically clicking on a statue.

Deson

01-27-2009, 06:57 PM

<cite>Necrotherian@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Errolflynn@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I want to know is why are both the good aligned tank classes designated single target and both the evil ones multi target? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Zerker is neutral only SK and Bruiser are evil aligned. Also to me personally I don't have to test this to know it pretty much sucks. Players should have a threat meter built into them as they learn the game. With this I see it as nothing more than an excuse to slack off instead of having to learn the game like the veterans did. Don't care if it shows threat potential, threat level, threat position, or whatever any meter showing your threat is a tool that should not be needed. Guess i'll just wait for the healing meter and dps meters so that the game can be played on easy mode.</blockquote>You know.. u can turn it off... yay.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /> You will still have the mystery.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Shouldn't be implemented in the first place yay for a mystery for everyone and having them learn how to play the game. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />As for the healing meter ya sure they are already inplace with ACT, but hey have SoE slap the guy who made it 5grand plug the code into the game put in a UI for it and boom your gtg. No need for pasting a code into chat finding your name. You can see exactly what your dps/healing output is and what to do to raise it. Guess i'm just an old dog who was taught he needed to learn things. With this modern age MMOing players don't want to learn and want to have everything infront of them. Gotta have a hate meter, hate %, hate output, Hate generation, etc... exactly detailed. *shrug* So dies the age of MMOs making way for the single player online games where it must be set to easy mode. </blockquote>A few things bothered me about this series of quotes. Though most are directed at Amana's posts, that in no way is meant to be construed as an personal attack upon Amana.Amana: In your reply to <a href="mailto:ErrolFlynn@Befallen">ErrolFlynn@Befallen</a>, you stated that Zerker was Neutral, and that SK and Bruiser were evil-aligned. <a href="mailto:EF@B">EF@B</a> stated that both good classes were designated as single target and that both evil classes were multi-target. As one in each is neutral, Guardian and Berzerker, the both that <a href="mailto:EF@B">EF@B</a> was referring to must have been Paladin and Monk on the good side, with Shadowknight and Bruiser representing the evil side. Had <a href="mailto:EF@B">EF@B</a> stated that all were, I could understand the need to correct him. He didn't, so there was no reason to quote and make an assertion that looked like a correction, but that merely proved his point.Additionally, you then went on to state that this isn't necessary, which I agree with, and that it will suck, which I don't. None of the tools we use is necessary. There is no need to have ACT to track heals and DPS, there is no need to use EQ2MAPS to keep your maps updated, there is no need to d/l ProfitUIReborn to have a more efficient UI. In fact, while I am on the subject, there is really no need to use many of the in game functions. You can do without an ingame map, right? Quest Helper, who needs it? Nobody needs to use the /loc function. But we do, in fact use them. Why? Because it makes the game more enjoyable, or it makes our playtime more efficient. I have been in the game long enough to remember the old crafting system. You can't convince me that the old way was better, just because it wasn't as easy as it is now. It is merely different. Times change. Most of the things we take for granted in real life were Science Fiction a mere 50 years ago. Sure, people had to learn to get by, but does that make then any better than now, just because life is easier now. I don't believe that it does.Vulkan: No matter what they add to the game, there will always be those heralding the end of the Golden Age of MMO gaming.To all: I'm not naive enough to think that anything I have written will change the mind of anyone who posts in this forum. There will always be those that cling to their views with the tenacity of an ostrich which has stuck its head in the sand. Furthermore, I have been around the block enough times to realize that someone will take something I have said out of context, or to selectively quote me by removing those inconvenient words which do not support their viewpoint.Trolls: Flame...on! </blockquote>What I was going to say...Bad players will always be such no matter what gets added. While there is something to be said of the skill/dedication in those willing to learn arcane rules and develop the instincts to play at peak, relevant information should not be hidden from the player as a rule. I remember my EQ1 necro yanking aggro everytime my poison dot critted because of an obsucre rule that made poison insanely higher aggro than normal. While I adjusted, many just got disgusted with a nonsense rule and went to other classes with less convoluted rules(or other games).Maps are the same. Most old MMO vets didn't have a better sense of direction, they got maps from other vets and used them until they knew the zone by heart. Maps haven't ruined anything and neither will the hate meter.I have no problems with changes that give people fewer excuses to suck. It makes PUG's more safe and sane and makes the game more accessible to people who don't want to spend hours of every day keeping up with every little change. People who care/ are more skilled will still be better than everyone else, the bottom level of play will simply be forced a little higher.

Necrotherian

01-27-2009, 08:29 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Necrotherian@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Errolflynn@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I want to know is why are both the good aligned tank classes designated single target and both the evil ones multi target? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Zerker is neutral only SK and Bruiser are evil aligned. Also to me personally I don't have to test this to know it pretty much sucks. Players should have a threat meter built into them as they learn the game. With this I see it as nothing more than an excuse to slack off instead of having to learn the game like the veterans did. Don't care if it shows threat potential, threat level, threat position, or whatever any meter showing your threat is a tool that should not be needed. Guess i'll just wait for the healing meter and dps meters so that the game can be played on easy mode.</blockquote>You know.. u can turn it off... yay.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /> You will still have the mystery.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Shouldn't be implemented in the first place yay for a mystery for everyone and having them learn how to play the game. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />As for the healing meter ya sure they are already inplace with ACT, but hey have SoE slap the guy who made it 5grand plug the code into the game put in a UI for it and boom your gtg. No need for pasting a code into chat finding your name. You can see exactly what your dps/healing output is and what to do to raise it. Guess i'm just an old dog who was taught he needed to learn things. With this modern age MMOing players don't want to learn and want to have everything infront of them. Gotta have a hate meter, hate %, hate output, Hate generation, etc... exactly detailed. *shrug* So dies the age of MMOs making way for the single player online games where it must be set to easy mode. </blockquote>A few things bothered me about this series of quotes. Though most are directed at Amana's posts, that in no way is meant to be construed as an personal attack upon Amana.Amana: In your reply to <a href="mailto:ErrolFlynn@Befallen">ErrolFlynn@Befallen</a>, you stated that Zerker was Neutral, and that SK and Bruiser were evil-aligned. <a href="mailto:EF@B">EF@B</a> stated that both good classes were designated as single target and that both evil classes were multi-target. As one in each is neutral, Guardian and Berzerker, the both that <a href="mailto:EF@B">EF@B</a> was referring to must have been Paladin and Monk on the good side, with Shadowknight and Bruiser representing the evil side. Had <a href="mailto:EF@B">EF@B</a> stated that all were, I could understand the need to correct him. He didn't, so there was no reason to quote and make an assertion that looked like a correction, but that merely proved his point.Additionally, you then went on to state that this isn't necessary, which I agree with, and that it will suck, which I don't. None of the tools we use is necessary. There is no need to have ACT to track heals and DPS, there is no need to use EQ2MAPS to keep your maps updated, there is no need to d/l ProfitUIReborn to have a more efficient UI. In fact, while I am on the subject, there is really no need to use many of the in game functions. You can do without an ingame map, right? Quest Helper, who needs it? Nobody needs to use the /loc function. But we do, in fact use them. Why? Because it makes the game more enjoyable, or it makes our playtime more efficient. I have been in the game long enough to remember the old crafting system. You can't convince me that the old way was better, just because it wasn't as easy as it is now. It is merely different. Times change. Most of the things we take for granted in real life were Science Fiction a mere 50 years ago. Sure, people had to learn to get by, but does that make then any better than now, just because life is easier now. I don't believe that it does.Vulkan: No matter what they add to the game, there will always be those heralding the end of the Golden Age of MMO gaming.To all: I'm not naive enough to think that anything I have written will change the mind of anyone who posts in this forum. There will always be those that cling to their views with the tenacity of an ostrich which has stuck its head in the sand. Furthermore, I have been around the block enough times to realize that someone will take something I have said out of context, or to selectively quote me by removing those inconvenient words which do not support their viewpoint.Trolls: Flame...on! </blockquote>What I was going to say...Bad players will always be such no matter what gets added. While there is something to be said of the skill/dedication in those willing to learn arcane rules and develop the instincts to play at peak, relevant information should not be hidden from the player as a rule. I remember my EQ1 necro yanking aggro everytime my poison dot critted because of an obsucre rule that made poison insanely higher aggro than normal. While I adjusted, many just got disgusted with a nonsense rule and went to other classes with less convoluted rules(or other games).Maps are the same. Most old MMO vets didn't have a better sense of direction, they got maps from other vets and used them until they knew the zone by heart. Maps haven't ruined anything and neither will the hate meter.I have no problems with changes that give people fewer excuses to suck. It makes PUG's more safe and sane and makes the game more accessible to people who don't want to spend hours of every day keeping up with every little change. People who care/ are more skilled will still be better than everyone else, the bottom level of play will simply be forced a little higher.</blockquote>I agree. Especially with that last sentence.Seriously. It is like Bill Gates getting ticked off when the 18-year old at McWendy King gets a $0.15 raise.

SisterTheresa

01-27-2009, 09:06 PM

Deson

01-27-2009, 10:14 PM

<cite>Necrotherian@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seriously. It is like Bill Gates getting ticked off when the 18-year old at McWendy King gets a $0.15 raise. </blockquote>The forum search sucks but there is a certain irony in this thread to older forum dwellers that makes it more akin to people complaining about PC's being to hard to use for years suddenly complaining when Window's gets more friendly.<cite>Katryina@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cry Doom much?Goodness it's just a meter you can toggle off. Don't use it then. I've learned through the game to watch my healing but even I screw up occasionally. But since I will be making a new tank character that I've never tried before, I think it will be helpful.One thing isn't going to make it "easy mode". Goodness.</blockquote>One thing doesn't but the collection of things can make it suddenly such. As a tank who's actually tanking, you won't have much more info than you already have/need-- are you getting beat on?Tanking is fairly binary with aggro. If anything the change would make it easier to guage what's what on your non-tanks since tank quality varies and that variance can make the game a world of suck. For your new tank, I'd actually recommend turning the meter off first so you can get used to just seeing something is wrong as opposed to using the meter. A good tank will know in the first couple minutes with the group what the limits are and the meter won't help at all with that.

gdawg311

01-28-2009, 12:09 AM

lol... this whole concept is ezmode and stupid..oh no a window is telling me that im at 99 and about to steal aggro, better hit a detaunt!srsly... wow

Deson

01-28-2009, 03:43 AM

<cite>gdawg311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol... this whole concept is ezmode and stupid..oh no a window is telling me that im at 99 and about to steal aggro, better hit a detaunt!srsly... wow</blockquote>For a well practiced raid team that knows each other's capabilities sure. For random gatherings of folks, it's a feature that could be a godsend. When I more actively played and in EQ1, I used to use the first couple pulls to figure out just what I could get away with without dying. While fine, it takes time to figure out if I can't go full throttle the first kill. The threat meter allows a much faster gauge of what's going on while not giving away exact numbers. Ideally the tool can even be used to help tanks willing to listen improve their ability to hold aggro. Likewise if I'm a dps class paying with an awesome tank(but don't know it) who holds aggro against everything I can do, why am I going to waste time with detaunts? It could even help me with what poisons I run on my brig and preds.ezmode would be if it just hit the detaunts for you. stupid would be if it could serve no good purpose. The worst thing this change does is raise the bottom level of play a notch.

Shadowtraveler

01-28-2009, 05:33 AM

I like the idea of the "Hate Meter". It will be a usefull tool for people trying out new classes for the first time and possibly encourage people trying EQ2 or MMO's for the first time to stick around with a more enjoyable grouping experience. Groups other than your friend or guild base are hard to find now days and GOOD pug groups are even harder to find. Anything that encourages more people to play or start new toons is a good thing imo. All the "old school" players can choose to not use the meter if they dont want. I myself like a smooth running group with the MT pulling and holding aggro, the healers healing and the rest dps and support (speaking in general roles). Of coarse things always dont go picture perfect and unexpected things can def add to the excitement, but I think it has the potential to make groups run smoother, which equals less deaths, which equals less time wasted, which hopefully would mean more goals attained and more fun doing it. Lets also not forget that there will always players that, "Hate Meter" or not, love stealing aggro, like its a badge of honor or something. Players that dont grasp the concept of letting the MT lead. Scouts who love to bow pull ahead of the MT. Wizzys who love to thro bombs right out of the gate....and so on. My point is, there will always be the potential for the unexpected and the adding of the "Hate Meter" will not change that, its just another tool to help people who want to use it.

andi of permafrost

01-29-2009, 09:15 PM

honestly i think this will be a great change for us as a lvl 80 guardian its sometimes hard for me to keep aggro say if theres 3-4 high nukers in the group i dont care if it affects the solo od dues as a tank you should never solo becuase you get use to it and when you join a group its way different than its like relurning the game all over again on spells and buffs and all that so for that im glad they merged them together becuase less crap that i got to cast to buff up for one and 2 makes the grouping go alittle faster not having to cast as many buffs even tho it only took about 1-2 min to buff everyone up but yes i think this is good thatway they know that there almost about to get the aggro on them by the meter so it should be a great thing but the only thing i would change is more of the tanks spells to increase the hate like the slam and all them the high end spells becuase as a tank we dont need dehate spell wise only increase even if in a group tanks in a shard run you dont need 2 tanks not atleast 2 guards i can see a guard and pally but not to tanks usly becuase you need that dps to kill all the names in the end of the shard runs so its a good think i like it

Lethe5683

01-30-2009, 11:23 AM

The hate meter is alomost useless to tanks, it's only helpful for telling how much aggro got pulled off you not predicting when aggro will get pulled off you. The meter seems more designed as a way of giving DPS classes a way to keep their hate in check.

Rashaak

02-01-2009, 12:02 PM

The Hate Meter it self is a good concept, but it would only be really useful if you can view everyone esles hate meter in the group/raid.It would save a ton of in-group/raid arguements (not to mention time) about who is stealing aggro or whether or not the tank is...well...tanking. Just viewing your own 'hate', meh. If you know how to play your class, you should know where you stand anyways...

Jrral

02-01-2009, 01:59 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not completely transparent. The threat generated from heals is still something that is opaque; the exact heal/threat ratio is unknown and it's unlogged. For example, recently Aeralik mentioned that the threat generated by the Paladin's heals were increased by 300% ... but the question is, 300% of what? None of that information is parseable.</blockquote>I'd love to see hate from damage and heals added to the parse too. Internally the game has to generate it to maintain the hate lists, it should be possible to put the hate generated in parentheses beside each damage or heal number. From there ACT can parse things out. It won't be perfect, but it'll give a much better idea of how much aggro is being generated by damage.Which goes to what Aeralik's saying is the goal. Tanks currently emphasize maximum DPS because they firmly believe that they can generate more aggro by damage than by any other method (believing 1 point of damage = 1 point of aggro and they can put out more points of damage than they can points of taunt etc.). As long as they believe that, they'll see any attempt to get them to generate less damage as an attempt to keep them from generating maximum aggro and they'll try to find ways around the perceived interference. If the hate's directly in the parse, though, and they can see that going defensive and leaning on the taunts and abilities with hate attached results in higher HPS numbers than going offensive and pouring on the damage, the resistance to deemphasizing damage should lessen on it's own.

Gisallo

02-01-2009, 09:48 PM

<cite>gdawg311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol... this whole concept is ezmode and stupid..oh no a window is telling me that im at 99 and about to steal aggro, better hit a detaunt!srsly... wow</blockquote>Now I don't know if you use ACT. This just brought to my mind the people who I know who use ACT (from reading the Scout forums) and who are now saying your comment.How is this different than waiting for the "ding" from ACT while timing your autoattack? How is it different than using the timer to tell you when that named in Raid zone X's uber AoE is about to pop? Its not.There is really only one rational reason. For sometime (myself included at times) Scouts have been able to say "get a new tank if you are pulling aggro". Now hate transfers are going away, to bleed hate you are going to have to pay attention and click something AND if you pull aggro you won't be able to automatically blame it on the tank because they will be able to look at the data and say "dude it was your fault, you weren't managing your aggro. You pulled a Starscream." I think some dpsers are worried. Now they can't just go on full burn and say "look at how leet my parse was" they will have to take into account all the variables and actually watch their aggro (like we already should have been) because there is something in the game that will show EVERYONE when it was our fault and we can't just blame it on the guy wearing platemail because he's the convenient scapegoat.

Lethe5683

02-02-2009, 12:31 AM

I have no problem with the meter although I would probably never use it. It just seems completly unnecessary.

Terron

02-02-2009, 11:12 AM

<cite>Kaidia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote> You don't hear anyone complaing about how no one crafts like the veterans did. Cuz the old way sucked. I'm sure a few capped crafters complained at having to work at it while everyone else can chill, but you can bet your <> they didn't complain when they had to level up their other crafters after the fact.</blockquote>If you don't hear it is because you aren't listening, and you'd lose that bet. The old crafting system was more fun. Though there good things in the LU24 changes I complained before and since that it went too far. I have complained about how boring crafting became and still is (though there have been some improvements). I had no capped crafters at the time, and gave up on crafting for several months after the changes.Generally the fighter changes coming up look good, though the offensive stances need more work and I do not think the single-target/AE model will work well. Going back to relying more on taunts will be good, so long as it does not give the feeling that you are spending your time taunting rather than fighting. That won't be a problem for my SK but may be for my guard.

Obadiah

02-02-2009, 11:51 AM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not completely transparent. The threat generated from heals is still something that is opaque; the exact heal/threat ratio is unknown and it's unlogged. For example, recently Aeralik mentioned that the threat generated by the Paladin's heals were increased by 300% ... but the question is, 300% of what? None of that information is parseable.</blockquote>I'd love to see hate from damage and heals added to the parse too. Internally the game has to generate it to maintain the hate lists, it should be possible to put the hate generated in parentheses beside each damage or heal number. From there ACT can parse things out. It won't be perfect, but it'll give a much better idea of how much aggro is being generated by damage.Which goes to what Aeralik's saying is the goal. Tanks currently emphasize maximum DPS because they firmly believe that they can generate more aggro by damage than by any other method (believing 1 point of damage = 1 point of aggro and they can put out more points of damage than they can points of taunt etc.). As long as they believe that, they'll see any attempt to get them to generate less damage as an attempt to keep them from generating maximum aggro and they'll try to find ways around the perceived interference. If the hate's directly in the parse, though, and they can see that going defensive and leaning on the taunts and abilities with hate attached results in higher HPS numbers than going offensive and pouring on the damage, the resistance to deemphasizing damage should lessen on it's own.</blockquote>Well, they believe that 1 pt. of damage = 1 pt. of aggro because it's true.I agree it would be nice to have that transparency - to be able to see how much hate is coming from the damage dealt with +Hate Gain mods. But that STILL wouldn't give you the complete picture because of hate "decay". Even now, abilities with positional modifiers don't seem to show you how much threat you've gained, other than the separate threat amount associated with them independant of the positional change. Not saying it's impossible to add all of this, but I fear the logs are bloated enough as it is. And the "hate meter" makes it sort of unnecessary if non-tanks are using it.

Jrral

02-02-2009, 01:52 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, they believe that 1 pt. of damage = 1 pt. of aggro because it's true.</blockquote>I keep kearing that. But I also distinctly recall Aeralik discussing this in the TSO beta forums, and noting that with TSO they'd changed it so 1 point of damage was less hate than one point of taunt to try and change things so tanks could rely more on taunts and hate generation to hold aggro against increased damage by DPS classes. Which seems to be consistent with his stated goals for GU51 (you'll notice it's described as the second phase of the fighter revamp, TSO was the first phase). But with the beta forums gone I can't search and find that discussion anymore, and without numbers in the logs there's no way to prove which is the case.

Obadiah

02-02-2009, 02:41 PM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, they believe that 1 pt. of damage = 1 pt. of aggro because it's true.</blockquote>I keep kearing that. But I also distinctly recall Aeralik discussing this in the TSO beta forums, and noting that with TSO they'd changed it so 1 point of damage was less hate than one point of taunt to try and change things so tanks could rely more on taunts and hate generation to hold aggro against increased damage by DPS classes. Which seems to be consistent with his stated goals for GU51 (you'll notice it's described as the second phase of the fighter revamp, TSO was the first phase). But with the beta forums gone I can't search and find that discussion anymore, and without numbers in the logs there's no way to prove which is the case.</blockquote>Obviously I can't search them either, so we'll both continue to harbor our own beliefs. But doesn't it strike you as odd that you are the ONLY person that remembers that? Has anyone in any thread agreed that this is the case? A number of others that WERE in beta have concurred that this was never stated. I read everything Aeralik posts, and that went double for beta. That sort of change would have been a pretty gosh darn significant one, one that LOTS of people would have noted and spread all over as soon as the NDA was lifted if not sooner.He DID say that the purpose of the fighter revamp was to make tanks more reliant on taunts instead of DPS, definitely, and has reiterated that since. But at no point did Aeralik or any other state that 1 pt. of taunt hate was made greater than 1 pt. of DPS hate. Would there be a point to radically increasing the taunt values if that were the case? Why not just ratchet up that threat-hate<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />PS-hate ratio higher and keep the values on abilities the same? Why have numbers on them at all if they don't correlate in some way to the numbers that the DPS is putting out? For simplicity's sake, I would think that will always remain 1:1, except inasmuch as DPS-related threat is modified by +/- Hate Gain.

Kordran

02-02-2009, 02:56 PM

What he may be thinking of was the way that encounter hate was generated, not the threat ratio. Of course, that's only something that's been done on Test, and hasn't been published to live yet. But I'm also someone who read all of the dev posts on the Beta forums, and don't recall Aeralik (or anyone else) saying anything about changing the threat ratio for damage in GU50.

betatester7

02-02-2009, 03:01 PM

souns like new game experience? vets hated and new ones love it

Schirf

02-02-2009, 06:34 PM

I'm mostly concerned about the effect this will have to utility / hate transfer classes. With Raids moving away from casters and more to scout based DPS because of AoE damage, perhaps the utility/hate transfer classes could be given AoE reduction abilities that only work on cloth wearers to get those classes back into the mix?

Albertine

02-03-2009, 09:15 AM

<cite>Kiara wrote:</cite><blockquote>**** NOTEThe Fighter Revamp has been postponed so that it can be further tested and tweaked with the aid of player feedback.</blockquote>Thank you.

eidos

02-03-2009, 09:22 PM

I am unsure how everything will pan out so I'm not going to critique the whole thing here. I do see some possible problems, but I'm testing them out now anyway so I can give actual feedback. As for the hate meter, I don't need a lot of experience to critique it. As a tank, when I first heard about it, I sort of felt like the game would be telling me how to tank (although some of the proposed changes feel like this anyway at this time). As someone who has trained and still trains a lot of folks on how to tank and how to not steal hate from the tank, I love this idea. Hate management isn't all that simple. It's not like you get a fighter, place him out in front to stand there, do nothing and become the focus of all the attacks from the mob while everyone else lets loose like crazy. There are a lot of factors involved and there is a learning curve for a lot of folks no matter what their role is. This will help out a lot in teaching folks and in working as a P.U.G. So many times has there been a discussion on who needs to change what so hate doesn't bounce. That way folks can see if the tank needs more work or if it's the DPS, etc. It allows them to see where the problem lies and nobody gets into fights over whose fault it is because the meter will tell the tale factually. People won't take it as personal or take it as criticism, or at least shouldn't. If the meter bugs you, you can shut it off like so many other windows, but if you're part of a hate problem, then you should turn it on. Like Gisallo said earlier, it's no different than ACT and, although I couldn't get it working by the time I posted this to test it out, there are mods for ACT reports so you can track hate gain.

Legion11

02-04-2009, 11:32 AM

Sorry if this has already been addressed - I didn't have time to read the entire thread.How is the meter going to work for summoners who name their pets the same as themselves? I know in PUGs I can keep both myself and my pet from agroing (most of the time) but I know our combined hate is far greater than the tank's. Will we ever see a meter like this:100% Uberconjie97% Tanksalot94% Backstabzz90% (rest of group)where the tank actually is holding agro, but the conjuror and his pet (both named Uberconjie for parse bragging purposes) have more combined hate? Would the conjuror in this scenario have to rename his pet "Uberconjiepet" in order to get two seperate entities on the agro meter? If so, this would completely drop us out of every damage parse and make this broken class look even weaker to the uninformed player.

Lethe5683

02-04-2009, 11:37 AM

<cite>Legion11 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry if this has already been addressed - I didn't have time to read the entire thread.How is the meter going to work for summoners who name their pets the same as themselves? I know in PUGs I can keep both myself and my pet from agroing (most of the time) but I know our combined hate is far greater than the tank's. Will we ever see a meter like this:100% Uberconjie97% Tanksalot94% Backstabzz90% (rest of group)where the tank actually is holding agro, but the conjuror and his pet (both named Uberconjie for parse bragging purposes) have more combined hate? Would the conjuror in this scenario have to rename his pet "Uberconjiepet" in order to get two seperate entities on the agro meter? If so, this would completely drop us out of every damage parse and make this broken class look even weaker to the uninformed player.</blockquote>I don't think the meter uses logs to get it's data but rather a variable built into the game for each person.

lumny

02-05-2009, 01:33 PM

I want GU51 goes live soon, I'm having very hard time to keep agro without a bard in group. I'm not sure about other tank class, but how hell I can keep agro when they do 5k ~7k dps. This is ridiculus, building hates and keep agro on the mobs is fighter's job, not a bard or any other hate transfer class. SoE should provide the way tanks can generate enough hates by active skill or equips or some tactical skill such as HO.And about the single target tank and multi mob tank, I actually dont care. On the positive side, however, that can make the class specific use case in game.And the last about the hate meter, I think it's a good idear, but hate should be some mysterious part someone commented, which makes the tatic and is one of the key players get to know the eq world . I think they should implement the some kind of uncertainty on the Hate Meter. In real sense no one know how much hate they or grp members generate. For example since perception on the hate status is not perfect, hate meter shows value with a random error not a true one.

Brinelan

02-05-2009, 01:40 PM

<cite>lumny wrote:</cite><blockquote>I want GU51 goes live soon, I'm having very hard time to keep agro without a bard in group. I'm not sure about other tank class, but how hell I can keep agro when they do 5k ~7k dps. This is ridiculus, building hates and keep agro on the mobs is fighter's job, not a bard or any other hate transfer class. SoE should provide the way tanks can generate enough hates by active skill or equips or some tactical skill such as HO.And about the single target tank and multi mob tank, I actually dont care. On the positive side, however, that can make the class specific use case in game.And the last about the hate meter, I think it's a good idear, but hate should be some mysterious part someone commented, which makes the tatic and is one of the key players get to know the eq world . I think they should implement the some kind of uncertainty on the Hate Meter. In real sense no one know how much hate they or grp members generate. For example since perception on the hate status is not perfect, hate meter shows value with a random error not a true one.</blockquote>Check your gear, if youre still using rok legendary stuff then its time to upgrade to better gear.If you want uncertainty in the meter, then just leave it out. it is worthless if it isnt accurate.

Kordran

02-05-2009, 02:09 PM

<cite>lumny wrote:</cite><blockquote>For example since perception on the hate status is not perfect, hate meter shows value with a random error not a true one.</blockquote>Worst. Idea. Ever.

thial

02-05-2009, 04:38 PM

I also want this update to go live ASAP…I want to go back to the roots of my guard where defense/agro where my goals and DPS was just a bonus from having good gear…Currently it’s not fun to group with an illy brig wizzy and two healers with me doing 4-5k DPS stealing the IA from the brig and using taunts as they pop to keep agro. I like to rip through trash and with a 7k wizzy/brig and illy just below them agro is not solid and to keep the agro ping pong low I have to sacrifice defense and time my snap agro just right as a gaurd thats not how It should be….Swap the illy for a bard and I’m solid, swap the brig for a swashy and again I’m solid…Is this the way soe intended for my guard to tank heroic instances? No, raids yes. That’s why these changes are here to change the dependency of other classes for tanks to keep agro regardless of group setup. So fix offensive stance and make this thing live already…The buff merges makes sense if I agree or not is another story, the defensive stance is nice remove the taunt penalty from O-stance and all is good keep the -10 hate gain cause you should be able to make up for the hate loss with the added DPS. You dev’s need to get over this no tanking in O-stance notion, no body agrees with it and no one will look down on you if you admit you made a mistake they will applaud you for fixing the issue. Me personally as a guard I’ll rarely use O-stance but as a Zerk/SK It makes sense for the class to use it while they are tanking cause even though SoE has tagged them AoE tanks they are still the offensive based tanks and if they want to sacrifice defense for more DPS let there healers deal with it….As far as scouts complaining about loosing hate transfers who cares tanks got more than enough to deal with it….With my very limited testing I found tanking with my guard fun again and less of a DPS battle on test.forgot to mention the hate meter well I don't like the idea but it's not game breaking I do how ever like being able to parse the hate. Maybe I need to update act again but I can't get it to show TPS just an overall hate amount and treat position increases/decreases.....

Patterns1987

02-09-2009, 02:06 PM

I'd like the change, I apologize for those that don't, but as a berserker I think they would be more than beneficial they would make our class worth playing again. As of right now from what I can see Guardian's can outtank, and in many cases outdps a berserker. I can see why some hesitation is there though because of the other classes getting changed I dont necessarily agree with. i.e. (dark caress being only in defensive mode?). The Merging of abilities is also a tad bit annoying because maybe we blew, oh, 100 plat on a master 1 spell to finish up our masters or just to get another one and now its merged with another master we already had so we just wasted 100 plat...Oh well, thats my 2 cents, take it for what its worth, I think the game needs to evolve to keep up with other MMO's out there and maybe more expansions with MUCH more content would be a good way to start the ball, but if these are the beginnings of some good changes, who knows.

Destria

02-18-2009, 02:06 AM

Patterns-I'd like the change, I apologize for those that don't, but as a berserker I think they would be more than beneficial they would make our class worth playing again. As of right now from what I can see Guardian's can outtank, and in many cases outdps a berserker. I can see why some hesitation is there though because of the other classes getting changed I dont necessarily agree with. i.e. (dark caress being only in defensive mode?).You've got to be joking!As a berserker as my main...I dread this update, we are an OFFENSIVE tank class, the primary defining between fighters is OFF tank vs. DEF tank. And this update makes ALL of us DEF tanks, not by any kind of choice, but rather by FORCE. You wont be a berserker anymore, you'll just be a guardian with more AOE aggro.

Obadiah

02-18-2009, 02:18 AM

Not very much more AoE aggro, mind you. On 3 mobs it's pretty close to dead even. 4 or more before the Berserker sees any advantage going forward.

Blazenhawk

02-22-2009, 02:36 PM

SoE trying its best to maintain player base, while growing it! Name of the game today... after considerable debating (a long draw out meetings), a revamp of fighters is what SoE comes up with.... Well, I agree something is needed and the aggro meter is a step in the right direction, but its only the tip of the iceberg (and remember 90% of the ice is below water, out of sight)! Dangerous waters SoE team faces and quite a gamble! Do you continue down a dying path? Or do you try to shake things up?An aggro meter is peanuts... players will still need to pay attention as they always have! There is no mystery in that, none what-so-ever. Period.As far as changing the tank dynamics, well, quite ambitous of the team to determine what classes can do what! Old veterans will want to expand on what they have tried so hard to build, while new comers will flock to the classes that pleases their eyes, and covet them, until they find out later that the class is limited to a certain function.Will, other sub-classes need revamping? I think so... As a scout lover, some scouts only can do DPS (no surprise there), others are just support/utility. Now tanks will get to tank (surprise again) AND do DPS!!! I'm a little outraged at this... technically you can have a group of tanks now... Who would ever need a scout (other than to unlock a chest or two, or the occasional buff)? Maybe, I'm being eccentric, like others, but scouts at the very least should be able to DPS more than tanks who are going to be in offensive stances, assuming there is a main tank in the group already, naturally. Revamp the scouts next, than most likely the mages, and finally the healers, if needed. Alot of work for a game that needs other areas of focus, in my opinion.Closing statment: aggro meter is small potatoes... revamping tanks... well I bet the "Devs" are having some good debates! Losing the player base will be the ultimate judge of these new updates and the future of EQ2. May reason and responsibility reach the executives of SoE; players will stay and grow with "quality" (the games) NOT quanity (the profits)!!!

Danelin

02-22-2009, 11:40 PM

<cite>Blazenhawk@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>SoE trying its best to maintain player base, while growing it! Name of the game today... after considerable debating (a long draw out meetings), a revamp of fighters is what SoE comes up with.... Well, I agree something is needed and the aggro meter is a step in the right direction, but its only the tip of the iceberg (and remember 90% of the ice is below water, out of sight)! Dangerous waters SoE team faces and quite a gamble! Do you continue down a dying path? Or do you try to shake things up?An aggro meter is peanuts... players will still need to pay attention as they always have! There is no mystery in that, none what-so-ever. Period.As far as changing the tank dynamics, well, quite ambitous of the team to determine what classes can do what! Old veterans will want to expand on what they have tried so hard to build, while new comers will flock to the classes that pleases their eyes, and covet them, until they find out later that the class is limited to a certain function.Will, other sub-classes need revamping? I think so... As a scout lover, some scouts only can do DPS (no surprise there), others are just support/utility. Now tanks will get to tank (surprise again) AND do DPS!!! I'm a little outraged at this... technically you can have a group of tanks now... Who would ever need a scout (other than to unlock a chest or two, or the occasional buff)? Maybe, I'm being eccentric, like others, but scouts at the very least should be able to DPS more than tanks who are going to be in offensive stances, assuming there is a main tank in the group already, naturally. Revamp the scouts next, than most likely the mages, and finally the healers, if needed. Alot of work for a game that needs other areas of focus, in my opinion.Closing statment: aggro meter is small potatoes... revamping tanks... well I bet the "Devs" are having some good debates! Losing the player base will be the ultimate judge of these new updates and the future of EQ2. May reason and responsibility reach the executives of SoE; players will stay and grow with "quality" (the games) NOT quanity (the profits)!!!</blockquote>The aggro meter doesn't matter. 99% of all DPS classes will continue to ignore deaggro, ignore the meter, and die like fools.The complete redefining of tanks is stupid. For scouts:If you are a bard - You bring a ton of utility along with not insignificant DPSIf you are a predator - You signed up for only being DPS at character creation, and if you have been playing since launch, you have already made some nice gains in utility while maintaining your huge damage outputIf you are a rogue - You can bloody well tank almost as well as a fighter, and you get a lot of debuffing utility to go with your high damage numbers.For FightersIf you are a warrior - Guardians signed up for pure tanking with no dps, and should be there, as should paladins. Shadowknights and Berserkers should have higher output than bards, but under other scouts. Brawlers should be dogging the heels of Rogues who are slacking off, but still well behind the predators.The dps numbers aren't massively out of line for most fighters right now, other than shadowknights. They could use some minor tweaking, but most of the people who are massively breaking the curve are doing it with insanely potent proc gear and buffing from the Avatars, and itemization is the real cause of a lot of this. Nerfing how every fighter functions because of items is just stupid.Not every fighter is a 'tank', not every 'tank' should sit in defensive, and even a 'tank' has a big cannon on the front.

Zedtastic

02-23-2009, 02:18 AM

I can't wait for the fighter changes to go live. I'm a guardian and the MT for my guild. I concentrate on defensive gear and would prefer to tank defensively but to hold aggro in raids against assasins doing 10k+ dps I find myself tanking most content in offensive stance and switching to dual weild about 4 seconds into the fight once the mob is debuffed. I tank most heroic content offensive and dual weild as well. Seems to me like tanks should be able to hold decent aggro in defensive stance with a shield. Bout the only thing I don't agree with so far in the fighter changes is how long it takes to switch from one stance to another. OT should be able to dps in offensive and quickly switch to defensive if the MT goes down.

Danelin

02-23-2009, 03:20 AM

<cite>Zedtastic@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can't wait for the fighter changes to go live. I'm a guardian and the MT for my guild. I concentrate on defensive gear and would prefer to tank defensively but to hold aggro in raids against assasins doing 10k+ dps I find myself tanking most content in offensive stance and switching to dual weild about 4 seconds into the fight once the mob is debuffed. I tank most heroic content offensive and dual weild as well. Seems to me like tanks should be able to hold decent aggro in defensive stance with a shield. Bout the only thing I don't agree with so far in the fighter changes is how long it takes to switch from one stance to another. OT should be able to dps in offensive and quickly switch to defensive if the MT goes down.</blockquote>I understand the perspective of Guardians on this subject. Their preferred tanking style is non-functional right now, and they have to do all kinds of things to offset it and be able to hold aggro. I agree that changes that fix defensive to be a viable fighting style need to happen, and the sooner the better.Nevertheless, forcing every other fighter to adopt their playstyle and destroying offtanking (or off-off tanking for the lucky brawlers out there) doesn't help anyone.Trying to shoehorn Berserkers into defensive stance without addressing the class imbalances regarding weapon skills is also weak sauce. The 'offensive focused warrior' has to rely on other classes to buff his weapon skills, or pass up good defensive items for the rare high value +slashing skill items to even get up to his level in skill, much less to a high buffed accuracy rate that allows for easily hitting TSO content. This means that our procced aggro ability is mostly useless unless we build our group makeup around +weapon skills buffing on test.So we can trade a world where all fighters require hate transfer to hold aggro for a world where only some of the fighter classes require weapon skills to do it? Nice balance.The changes to Defensive stance RE taunts and the increased numeric taunt effectiveness need to go live, the rest of this update needs the precision of a surgeon and a subclass by subclass, AA by AA examination of all the fighters to figure out who is too high and too low, and why, then repair stacking issues that are pushing people too high, and reduce the CAs that are out of line. It doesn't need a sledgehammer approach that destroys a significant portion of the class variety in the fighter subs now, and removes all concept of the 'offensive fighter' from the game.