Buff Removal Question [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Anurra

01-26-2009, 02:55 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anurra@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the buffs for the fighters have been placed in the stances.My question is: will we receive new abilities to replace the ones we "lost"?Let me give you a very general example: Lets say previously, everyone had a total of 30 abilities at T8. Lets say they removed 5 buffs from each fighter and placed them in the stances. So that means 6 of the 24 classes now have 5 less "abilities". Will we each receive 5 new abilities? This would be very useful for some classes, like Paladins, who could use these free slots for their new suriviability abilities.Thanks.</blockquote>Once again you haven't lost anything. When they are merged its added into the spells it was merged with. In the case of the stances it might have been adjusted to match the flavor of the stance but overall nothing is lost. The only difference is that if you were casting 5 buffs previously its probably 2 now which makes life a little easier after all is said and done.</blockquote>I am not strictly claiming that we lost a buff, that is why it was in quotes. What I was trying to aim at was that overall, we now have less overall abilities on our hot bars and class lists, and will we get new ones to help us (all fighters) perform our new (in some cases) roles better. Does that make more sense?I am not against putting our buffs into our stances, for the record.Though, my issue was assuming, for the most part, all the classes received the same general amount of abilities. Apparently this is not true. I had no desire to go and count everyone's T8 abilities, sorry.Thanks for your reply.

liveja

01-26-2009, 03:02 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>In GU51 it wards against less damage because it's now attached to a level 72 or 73 stance, rather than the level 77 buff. So saying that we haven't "lost anything" as a result of the buffs being merged to our stances is factually incorrect.</blockquote>FWIW, this is precisely the issue Maroger has been hammering on for over a week, & is precisely why I've been hammering on Aeralik to please explain how/when/if the same philosophy will be applied to Rogues & Predators, as well.It is precisely that lack of information which causes me to dislike the new patch, which I otherwise think is necessary ... but which I also am increasingly convinced is only being half-done in GU51, & I don't like thinking about what will happen between GU51 & "whenever" they get around to revamping Rogues & Predators.Note that my disagreement with Maroger is concentrated on what the overall effects will be for his DPS while soloing, not that he's lost anything; clearly things have been lost, but I think the real question is "What is the overall playability of after this patch, is it improved, or is it reduced?" At this point, it looks to me like most tank classes are going to be somewhat better off.Edit: I'm sorry, Aeralik, but I've never heard of ANY fighter complaining about the number of buffs they have to re-cast after a wipe, so using that as a defense/reason/explanation/excuse for buff consolidation is, IMO, ludicrous. As others have said, if any class has call to complain about "too many buffs", it's Bards ... but I note they're not (yet) being changed. I strongly believe buff consolidation was a very bad idea, & will so remain.

Kordran

01-26-2009, 03:15 PM

The whole "buff consolidation" issue really is a red herring, and I wish he'd quit bringing it up as a way to justify merging the buffs with the stances. The reason is because he wants fighters to choose a stance, and have consequences associated with that choice, rather than have the best of both worlds. Mentioning that the change makes things more "convenient" just makes the entire post seem disingenuous, because we all know that there's no Fighters out there complaining day in and out about how many buffs they have.But I'm with Flaye here. I have never had an issue with the general design goals that Aeralik has. But thus far, his implementation has shown to be flawed; some in minor ways, and some in more signficant, game altering ways. And yet, while he does post, he has also remained silent on some of the more pressing issues and questions raised by players. Honestly, it seems like the only pitches he's willing to swing at here on the forums are the softballs. It leaves a lot of us with the concern that GU51 is going to be published (probably next week) in a half-baked form that's going to take months to sort out. And in the meantime, the playing experience for everyone -- not just tanks -- is going to take a hit until these issues are eventually addressed.

Yimway

01-26-2009, 03:23 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once again you haven't lost anything. When they are merged its added into the spells it was merged with. In the case of the stances it might have been adjusted to match the flavor of the stance but overall nothing is lost. The only difference is that if you were casting 5 buffs previously its probably 2 now which makes life a little easier after all is said and done.</blockquote>Btw, thanks for blowing my leaderboards for most master abilities.

Anastasie

01-26-2009, 03:27 PM

All of those buffs that were merged with the stances are also being lost for the 5 seconds it takes to swap between stances as well.

DistortionII

01-26-2009, 03:45 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anurra@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the buffs for the fighters have been placed in the stances.My question is: will we receive new abilities to replace the ones we "lost"?Let me give you a very general example: Lets say previously, everyone had a total of 30 abilities at T8. Lets say they removed 5 buffs from each fighter and placed them in the stances. So that means 6 of the 24 classes now have 5 less "abilities". Will we each receive 5 new abilities? This would be very useful for some classes, like Paladins, who could use these free slots for their new suriviability abilities.Thanks.</blockquote>Once again you haven't lost anything. When they are merged its added into the spells it was merged with. In the case of the stances it might have been adjusted to match the flavor of the stance but overall nothing is lost. The only difference is that if you were casting 5 buffs previously its probably 2 now which makes life a little easier after all is said and done.</blockquote>*cough* actually gaurds lost 10 Stam from the Master1 stam buff thats being placed on the stances master1 "fortification" on live reads increases stam by 79.. but over on test the stamina placed on the Off/Deff stances is only 69 (bow-chicka-wow-wow)... might be just a typo... any chance to get that one corrected <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Maroger

01-26-2009, 04:27 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anurra@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the buffs for the fighters have been placed in the stances.My question is: will we receive new abilities to replace the ones we "lost"?Let me give you a very general example: Lets say previously, everyone had a total of 30 abilities at T8. Lets say they removed 5 buffs from each fighter and placed them in the stances. So that means 6 of the 24 classes now have 5 less "abilities". Will we each receive 5 new abilities? This would be very useful for some classes, like Paladins, who could use these free slots for their new suriviability abilities.Thanks.</blockquote>Once again you haven't lost anything. When they are merged its added into the spells it was merged with. In the case of the stances it might have been adjusted to match the flavor of the stance but overall nothing is lost. The only difference is that if you were casting 5 buffs previously its probably 2 now which makes life a little easier after all is said and done.</blockquote>This simply not true Aeralik so stop saying say we haven't lost anything . We sure have lost a lot.I.e GRIM STIKE currently I do 438-730 damage and heal at 224-374 - I have it at Master I.In you merger Grim Strike now does 314-524 Damage and only heals of 175-291 - so yes we did lose something and you can't sugar coat the fact.,I prefer having the buffs as stand alone. -- Merging them into stances NERFS them and lower themThe idea that casting 2 buffs is a PITA when raid buffing or re-buffing after a wipe is time consuming is so ridiculous I can't believe that you even wrote that nonsense. Do you even realize how many MORE BUFFS a caster class casts? Get real -- I remember buffing for the 72 man raids in EQ1 where Buffing could take a good 30 minutes or more - You have nothing like that in EQ2 so stop pretending you do. Saying this nonsense is just trying to kick dust in people's eyes hoping they won't notice what else is going one.

Obadiah

01-26-2009, 04:32 PM

OK, since we're picking. . . Berserkers lost 3 Defense & Parry, 1.4 Aggression, and a third of our Berserk triggers.(Gained +2 Crush/Slash/Pierce, but I'd trade that for the above)I for one am always waiting for other classes (Summoners & Druids in particular) to re-buff after a wipe. Or for revive sickness. But I like the idea of having fewer buffs, especially if it opens up concentration slots for them to put something in later. Maybe since I'll be waiting even longer, I might use the extra time to cast my deity pet.Nah.

Matia

01-26-2009, 06:23 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anurra@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the buffs for the fighters have been placed in the stances.My question is: will we receive new abilities to replace the ones we "lost"?Let me give you a very general example: Lets say previously, everyone had a total of 30 abilities at T8. Lets say they removed 5 buffs from each fighter and placed them in the stances. So that means 6 of the 24 classes now have 5 less "abilities". Will we each receive 5 new abilities? This would be very useful for some classes, like Paladins, who could use these free slots for their new suriviability abilities.Thanks.</blockquote>Once again you haven't lost anything. When they are merged its added into the spells it was merged with. In the case of the stances it might have been adjusted to match the flavor of the stance but overall nothing is lost. The only difference is that if you were casting 5 buffs previously its probably 2 now which makes life a little easier after all is said and done.</blockquote>I won't call that a lie, but I will term it a deliberate inaccuracy.Your assertion that they aren't lost only holds true part of the time.That would be like someone changing your central air conditioner to where it only blows in the bathroom and the kitchen and telling you that you haven't really lost the AC.They would be right, because you haven't, but they are leaving out that you only have it when you are in two rooms instead of everywhere in the house.

Tandy

01-26-2009, 07:44 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>This simply not true Aeralik so stop saying say we haven't lost anything . We sure have lost a lot.I.e GRIM STIKE currently I do 438-730 damage and heal at 224-374 - I have it at Master I.In you merger Grim Strike now does 314-524 Damage and only heals of 175-291 - so yes we did lose something and you can't sugar coat the fact.,I prefer having the buffs as stand alone. -- Merging them into stances NERFS them and lower themThe idea that casting 2 buffs is a PITA when raid buffing or re-buffing after a wipe is time consuming is so ridiculous I can't believe that you even wrote that nonsense. Do you even realize how many MORE BUFFS a caster class casts? Get real -- I remember buffing for the 72 man raids in EQ1 where Buffing could take a good 30 minutes or more - You have nothing like that in EQ2 so stop pretending you do. Saying this nonsense is just trying to kick dust in people's eyes hoping they won't notice what else is going one.</blockquote>One thing to remember, you were given the master stances that are HIGHER than your current level for those buffs you have on live. You are comparing abilitys from a current tier to ones from a past tier. LEVEL UP FOR THE NEW STANCE. you will see the drop is NOT so dramatic. I have posted up my own comparsions on the 2, and while it is slighty off its not ANYWHERE near as dramatic as your posting. Get your facts straight please.edit to attach the actual numbers from test and live for me, on test I have about 100 less spell dmg than on live due to some new gear I got since my copy.Unholy Arms 3.5 / min Live - 2.9 / min Test on Offensive StanceLive 663-1105 dmg 276-460 healsTest 618-1030 dmg 256-426 heal

Maroger

01-26-2009, 08:00 PM

<cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>This simply not true Aeralik so stop saying say we haven't lost anything . We sure have lost a lot.I.e GRIM STIKE currently I do 438-730 damage and heal at 224-374 - I have it at Master I.In you merger Grim Strike now does 314-524 Damage and only heals of 175-291 - so yes we did lose something and you can't sugar coat the fact.,I prefer having the buffs as stand alone. -- Merging them into stances NERFS them and lower themThe idea that casting 2 buffs is a PITA when raid buffing or re-buffing after a wipe is time consuming is so ridiculous I can't believe that you even wrote that nonsense. Do you even realize how many MORE BUFFS a caster class casts? Get real -- I remember buffing for the 72 man raids in EQ1 where Buffing could take a good 30 minutes or more - You have nothing like that in EQ2 so stop pretending you do. Saying this nonsense is just trying to kick dust in people's eyes hoping they won't notice what else is going one.</blockquote>One thing to remember, you were given the master stances that are HIGHER than your current level for those buffs you have on live. You are comparing abilitys from a current tier to ones from a past tier. LEVEL UP FOR THE NEW STANCE. you will see the drop is NOT so dramatic. I have posted up my own comparsions on the 2, and while it is slighty off its not ANYWHERE near as dramatic as your posting. Get your facts straight please.</blockquote>YOu love to interpret people's word so that you are always right - how pathetic.WHy should I have to level up? My Grim Stike was find until it got nerfed by being merged into stances. Even when you level up there is still a drop. And moreoever we aren't getting the level 70's buffs at all - so with the level 70 stances we will not have the same ability from Grim Strike as we would have if we have been able to have the level 70 buff.I suggest you try getting your facts right and stop twisting people's so that you can always say I AM RIGHT - that seems your only objective here is to prove that you are right and everyone who disagrees with your is wrong.Other players who buffs are bring merged are losing the power of those buffs as opposed to when they were stand-alone.

Tandy

01-26-2009, 08:03 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>This simply not true Aeralik so stop saying say we haven't lost anything . We sure have lost a lot.I.e GRIM STIKE currently I do 438-730 damage and heal at 224-374 - I have it at Master I.In you merger Grim Strike now does 314-524 Damage and only heals of 175-291 - so yes we did lose something and you can't sugar coat the fact.,I prefer having the buffs as stand alone. -- Merging them into stances NERFS them and lower themThe idea that casting 2 buffs is a PITA when raid buffing or re-buffing after a wipe is time consuming is so ridiculous I can't believe that you even wrote that nonsense. Do you even realize how many MORE BUFFS a caster class casts? Get real -- I remember buffing for the 72 man raids in EQ1 where Buffing could take a good 30 minutes or more - You have nothing like that in EQ2 so stop pretending you do. Saying this nonsense is just trying to kick dust in people's eyes hoping they won't notice what else is going one.</blockquote>One thing to remember, you were given the master stances that are HIGHER than your current level for those buffs you have on live. You are comparing abilitys from a current tier to ones from a past tier. LEVEL UP FOR THE NEW STANCE. you will see the drop is NOT so dramatic. I have posted up my own comparsions on the 2, and while it is slighty off its not ANYWHERE near as dramatic as your posting. Get your facts straight please.</blockquote>YOu love to interpret people's word so that you are always right - how pathetic.WHy should I have to level up? My Grim Stike was find until it got nerfed by being merged into stances. Even when you level up there is still a drop. And moreoever we aren't getting the level 70's buffs at all - so with the level 70 stances we will not have the same ability from Grim Strike as we would have if we have been able to have the level 70 buff.I suggest you try getting your facts right and stop twisting people's so that you can always say I AM RIGHT - that seems your only objective here is to prove that you are right and everyone who disagrees with your is wrong.Other players who buffs are bring merged are losing the power of those buffs as opposed to when they were stand-alone.</blockquote>Unholy Arms 3.5 / min Live - 2.9 / min Test on Offensive StanceLive 663-1105 dmg 276-460 healsTest 618-1030 dmg 256-426 healPlease tell me where I am wrong in that is NOT as big a nerf as your saying it is.This is with 100 less spell dmg modify on test as well. so the numbers arent exact.You seem to have a problem when someone points out your numbers are flat out WRONG. Dont be a bitter little man. Admit your skewing your testing to be what you want it to be instead of looking rationally at the numbers, which is what I did.

Appollyon

01-26-2009, 08:30 PM

I am not sure if this has been mentioned or not but you aren't give all your stances at the same time when you level. At 58 Monk get a def stance and mid stance but dont get the off stance upgrade till 63. Till then we have to use a off stance that gives less str and wis because the buffs were merged. I dont think its right that now we are forced to have less stats in a stance while leveling because the upgrade is 5 levels ahead (not the same for everyone). Another thing I have noticed with the monks skill line not sure about the other fighters is that Inner Focus (lvl 54) is merged into our lvl 58 and 63 stances and I would assume (correct me if I am wrong) Focal Serenity (lvl 6<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Is merged into the next stances 71 (Mid) 72 (Def) 75 (off) now at level 79 we get Chakra an upgrade to our str/wis buff but we dont get anymore stance upgrades so we actully lose a buff. This might not be the case of all fighters but what I have observed as a monk.I know Inner Focus merged into those stances because on Test I was given Adept III versions of those three skills and out of the skills merged at my level (60 at the time) was the only adept III I had.One thing I want to know is will we be getting upgrades to our stances since our level 79 buff was not the one merged into the stances. (Unless I am wrong) If not then you effectively just nerged our STR/WIS buff at 79/80. The mergers need to be reworked or stances added or unmerged.

denmom

01-26-2009, 08:31 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Edit: I'm sorry, Aeralik, but I've never heard of ANY fighter complaining about the number of buffs they have to re-cast after a wipe, so using that as a defense/reason/explanation/excuse for buff consolidation is, IMO, ludicrous. As others have said, if any class has call to complain about "too many buffs", it's Bards ... but I note they're not (yet) being changed. I strongly believe buff consolidation was a very bad idea, & will so remain.</blockquote>I was at Fan Faire last year when the buffs to apply came up in a panel. The one who brought that up was a Warden, not a fighter, who commented about the umpteen zillion buffs to reapply. and how fighters always would run off before they could finish. Fighters can buff on the fly, healers interrupted themselves at that time. I know buffing on the run has been added in currently, but back then it wasn't. There was a lot of murmuring agreement from others, but I didn't hear any fighters say it'd be a good thing to have less buffs.

Kordran

01-26-2009, 08:43 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Edit: I'm sorry, Aeralik, but I've never heard of ANY fighter complaining about the number of buffs they have to re-cast after a wipe, so using that as a defense/reason/explanation/excuse for buff consolidation is, IMO, ludicrous. As others have said, if any class has call to complain about "too many buffs", it's Bards ... but I note they're not (yet) being changed. I strongly believe buff consolidation was a very bad idea, & will so remain.</blockquote>I was at Fan Faire last year when the buffs to apply came up in a panel. The one who brought that up was a Warden, not a fighter, who commented about the umpteen zillion buffs to reapply. and how fighters always would run off before they could finish. Fighters can buff on the fly, healers interrupted themselves at that time. I know buffing on the run has been added in currently, but back then it wasn't. There was a lot of murmuring agreement from others, but I didn't hear any fighters say it'd be a good thing to have less buffs.</blockquote>What supposedly was to come out of that was buff consolidation for all classes. But once they got into it, and saw what a can of worms it opened in terms of various design issues, they backed off the idea. Like I said, the decision to merge buffs with stances was to force a stance selection, and even suggesting that it has anything to do with discarded concept of buff consolidation is ridiculous on its face. Honestly, I don't even understand why Aeralik mentioned it.At the very minimum, he needs to raise the effective level of the stances to 76 (defensive) and 77 (offensive), or he needs to adjust the values of the buffs that were merged with those stances. As it is right now, the implementation is simply wrong.

Maroger

01-26-2009, 11:38 PM

<cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>This simply not true Aeralik so stop saying say we haven't lost anything . We sure have lost a lot.I.e GRIM STIKE currently I do 438-730 damage and heal at 224-374 - I have it at Master I.In you merger Grim Strike now does 314-524 Damage and only heals of 175-291 - so yes we did lose something and you can't sugar coat the fact.,I prefer having the buffs as stand alone. -- Merging them into stances NERFS them and lower themThe idea that casting 2 buffs is a PITA when raid buffing or re-buffing after a wipe is time consuming is so ridiculous I can't believe that you even wrote that nonsense. Do you even realize how many MORE BUFFS a caster class casts? Get real -- I remember buffing for the 72 man raids in EQ1 where Buffing could take a good 30 minutes or more - You have nothing like that in EQ2 so stop pretending you do. Saying this nonsense is just trying to kick dust in people's eyes hoping they won't notice what else is going one.</blockquote>One thing to remember, you were given the master stances that are HIGHER than your current level for those buffs you have on live. You are comparing abilitys from a current tier to ones from a past tier. LEVEL UP FOR THE NEW STANCE. you will see the drop is NOT so dramatic. I have posted up my own comparsions on the 2, and while it is slighty off its not ANYWHERE near as dramatic as your posting. Get your facts straight please.</blockquote>YOu love to interpret people's word so that you are always right - how pathetic.WHy should I have to level up? My Grim Stike was find until it got nerfed by being merged into stances. Even when you level up there is still a drop. And moreoever we aren't getting the level 70's buffs at all - so with the level 70 stances we will not have the same ability from Grim Strike as we would have if we have been able to have the level 70 buff.I suggest you try getting your facts right and stop twisting people's so that you can always say I AM RIGHT - that seems your only objective here is to prove that you are right and everyone who disagrees with your is wrong.Other players who buffs are bring merged are losing the power of those buffs as opposed to when they were stand-alone.</blockquote>Unholy Arms 3.5 / min Live - 2.9 / min Test on Offensive StanceLive 663-1105 dmg 276-460 healsTest 618-1030 dmg 256-426 healPlease tell me where I am wrong in that is NOT as big a nerf as your saying it is.This is with 100 less spell dmg modify on test as well. so the numbers arent exact.You seem to have a problem when someone points out your numbers are flat out WRONG. Dont be a bitter little man. Admit your skewing your testing to be what you want it to be instead of looking rationally at the numbers, which is what I did.</blockquote>Of Course you are not telling people if you have the OFFENSIVE STANCE AA?? The Master I stance I received in Offensce does NOT have those numbers on it.At Master I - with NO AA IN OFFENSE I HAVE:Damage 508-847 Healing 256-426 -- THESE ARE THE NUMBERS POSTED ON THE SKILL - I suspect you made yours up.I have 5 points in what used to be the Grim Strike AA otherwise I suspect the numbers would be lower.Now tell me how you get those number or did you just make them up to prove your point -- I really don't believe what you are saying since you are not telling the whole story about what AA's you -- the numbers you posted are in NO WAY THE RAW NUMBERS for the stance.You are the one who is skewing the numbers to prove your point - I find it hard to credit anything you say anymore after this post. You want to be right about everything -- IT IS A BIG NERF AT THIS POINT. ANd your post is simply not telling the whole truth.Testing is irrelevant since testing includes your AA's - which not every player will have -- I suggest you try not to deceive everyone so much to make your point.

Tandy

01-27-2009, 12:24 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>This simply not true Aeralik so stop saying say we haven't lost anything . We sure have lost a lot.I.e GRIM STIKE currently I do 438-730 damage and heal at 224-374 - I have it at Master I.In you merger Grim Strike now does 314-524 Damage and only heals of 175-291 - so yes we did lose something and you can't sugar coat the fact.,I prefer having the buffs as stand alone. -- Merging them into stances NERFS them and lower themThe idea that casting 2 buffs is a PITA when raid buffing or re-buffing after a wipe is time consuming is so ridiculous I can't believe that you even wrote that nonsense. Do you even realize how many MORE BUFFS a caster class casts? Get real -- I remember buffing for the 72 man raids in EQ1 where Buffing could take a good 30 minutes or more - You have nothing like that in EQ2 so stop pretending you do. Saying this nonsense is just trying to kick dust in people's eyes hoping they won't notice what else is going one.</blockquote>One thing to remember, you were given the master stances that are HIGHER than your current level for those buffs you have on live. You are comparing abilitys from a current tier to ones from a past tier. LEVEL UP FOR THE NEW STANCE. you will see the drop is NOT so dramatic. I have posted up my own comparsions on the 2, and while it is slighty off its not ANYWHERE near as dramatic as your posting. Get your facts straight please.</blockquote>YOu love to interpret people's word so that you are always right - how pathetic.WHy should I have to level up? My Grim Stike was find until it got nerfed by being merged into stances. Even when you level up there is still a drop. And moreoever we aren't getting the level 70's buffs at all - so with the level 70 stances we will not have the same ability from Grim Strike as we would have if we have been able to have the level 70 buff.I suggest you try getting your facts right and stop twisting people's so that you can always say I AM RIGHT - that seems your only objective here is to prove that you are right and everyone who disagrees with your is wrong.Other players who buffs are bring merged are losing the power of those buffs as opposed to when they were stand-alone.</blockquote>Unholy Arms 3.5 / min Live - 2.9 / min Test on Offensive StanceLive 663-1105 dmg 276-460 healsTest 618-1030 dmg 256-426 healPlease tell me where I am wrong in that is NOT as big a nerf as your saying it is.This is with 100 less spell dmg modify on test as well. so the numbers arent exact.You seem to have a problem when someone points out your numbers are flat out WRONG. Dont be a bitter little man. Admit your skewing your testing to be what you want it to be instead of looking rationally at the numbers, which is what I did.</blockquote>Of Course you are not telling people if you have the OFFENSIVE STANCE AA?? The Master I stance I received in Offensce does NOT have those numbers on it.At Master I - with NO AA IN OFFENSE I HAVE:Damage 508-847 Healing 256-426 -- THESE ARE THE NUMBERS POSTED ON THE SKILL - I suspect you made yours up.I have 5 points in what used to be the Grim Strike AA otherwise I suspect the numbers would be lower.Now tell me how you get those number or did you just make them up to prove your point -- I really don't believe what you are saying since you are not telling the whole story about what AA's you -- the numbers you posted are in NO WAY THE RAW NUMBERS for the stance.You are the one who is skewing the numbers to prove your point - I find it hard to credit anything you say anymore after this post. You want to be right about everything -- IT IS A BIG NERF AT THIS POINT. ANd your post is simply not telling the whole truth.Testing is irrelevant since testing includes your AA's - which not every player will have -- I suggest you try not to deceive everyone so much to make your point.</blockquote>The only AA's I have are the ones to increase the proc rate. I have NOTHING to increase damage. We have the SAME AA.Those are the raw numbers you get when you inspect the abilitys. I have no special AA's that anyone else doesnt have. JUST THE TOP TIER PROC INCREASE IN THE SK TREE!!!!Arguing with you is worse than dealing with a teething baby. I have posted over and over again the actual data. Either pony up or get off the pot. I am not doctoring ANYTHING.I dont expect nor do I want to be right about everything....its just frustrating to know with 100% certainty that I am right about the damage on this and have you argue till you drop dead of a stroke that I am wrong. I never said its not a small nerf but it is NOT a major huge nerf like your saying it is.Do you want screen shots of my AA's with an inclusive inventory of my gear in triplicate signed in the presence of a notary public?Int effects spell damage, and if you even paid attention to what I was saying in my posts I have over 1000 int in offensive stance. You probably have much much less. Of course if you had all the knowledge you 'claim' to have you would know not everyone has the same dmg numbers on the same abilitys since gear/int/spell dmg etc can change what dmg you do.I have tried not to belittle you and break the forum rules, even when you keep trying to push my buttons. I am just interested in getting the truth out. To have you constantly claim I am lying and deceiving people is wearing thin. I hope you deal with your personal issues in other ways than on forums against strangers who neither care nor give a rats behind about you in any way shape fashion or form.also after reading your post...you DO realize the offensive stance AA on the shadow tree fighter line ONLY increases the melee skill on the offensive stance right? and no, I do NOT have that AA....but even if someone did it wont change the damage on the offensive stance proc. There is an AA on the crusader line in shadows that would, but I do not have that one either. The only AA I had that effected that in any way shape fashion or form is the one YOU have. That is my pure raw data from inspecting the stance. nothing doctored, nothing made up, nothing extra.And the fact you say testing is irrelevant since it includes AA just makes me wonder why your even posting here. Seriously....why are you even here. Do everyone a favor and disappear.

Lethe5683

01-27-2009, 12:31 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>In GU51 it wards against less damage because it's now attached to a level 72 or 73 stance, rather than the level 77 buff. So saying that we haven't "lost anything" as a result of the buffs being merged to our stances is factually incorrect.</blockquote>FWIW, this is precisely the issue Maroger has been hammering on for over a week, & is precisely why I've been hammering on Aeralik to please explain how/when/if the same philosophy will be applied to Rogues & Predators, as well.It is precisely that lack of information which causes me to dislike the new patch, which I otherwise think is necessary ... but which I also am increasingly convinced is only being half-done in GU51, & I don't like thinking about what will happen between GU51 & "whenever" they get around to revamping Rogues & Predators.Note that my disagreement with Maroger is concentrated on what the overall effects will be for his DPS while soloing, not that he's lost anything; clearly things have been lost, but I think the real question is "What is the overall playability of after this patch, is it improved, or is it reduced?" At this point, it looks to me like most tank classes are going to be somewhat better off.Edit: I'm sorry, Aeralik, but I've never heard of ANY fighter complaining about the number of buffs they have to re-cast after a wipe, so using that as a defense/reason/explanation/excuse for buff consolidation is, IMO, ludicrous. As others have said, if any class has call to complain about "too many buffs", it's Bards ... but I note they're not (yet) being changed. I strongly believe buff consolidation was a very bad idea, & will so remain.</blockquote>As a bruiser rebuffing takes about... 10 seconds on live.

Maroger

01-27-2009, 01:00 AM

<cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Those are the raw numbers you get when you inspect the abilitys. I have no special AA's that anyone else doesnt have. JUST THE TOP TIER PROC INCREASE IN THE SK TREE!!!!Arguing with you is worse than dealing with a teething baby. I have posted over and over again the actual data. Either pony up or get off the pot. I am not doctoring ANYTHING.I dont expect nor do I want to be right about everything....its just frustrating to know with 100% certainty that I am right about the damage on this and have you argue till you drop dead of a stroke that I am wrong. I never said its not a small nerf but it is NOT a major huge nerf like your saying it is.Do you want screen shots of my AA's with an inclusive inventory of my gear in triplicate signed in the presence of a notary public?Int effects spell damage, and if you even paid attention to what I was saying in my posts I have over 1000 int in offensive stance. You probably have much much less. Of course if you had all the knowledge you 'claim' to have you would know not everyone has the same dmg numbers on the same abilitys since gear/int/spell dmg etc can change what dmg you do.</blockquote>The number I have posted are the raw numbers when I inspect the Master I Offensive stance. Now I really don't care what numbers you post as I don't believe they are accurate.It is the raw description of the stance and the numbers on it are lower than the numbers on the Stand Alone buff.The numbers I have posted are the numbers THAT I HAVE AFTER MERGER -- Now what you have does NOT impact me so stop trying to tell me what my numbers are. You want to say that I should have the same numbers as you have and that is NOT THE FACTS -- I realize facts are difficult for you to grapple with when they don't conform to your views.Your in a level 80 raiding guild so naturally you have the best you can get your greedy paws on so sure you have gear to compensate for the nerfs - stop trying to pretend otherwise. Raiders really make me sick -- they think everyone else sucks who does not raid and they believe that what is good for raiders is good for everyone. That sort of attitude nearly killed EQ1 and will surely kill this game.

Tandy

01-27-2009, 01:06 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Those are the raw numbers you get when you inspect the abilitys. I have no special AA's that anyone else doesnt have. JUST THE TOP TIER PROC INCREASE IN THE SK TREE!!!!Arguing with you is worse than dealing with a teething baby. I have posted over and over again the actual data. Either pony up or get off the pot. I am not doctoring ANYTHING.I dont expect nor do I want to be right about everything....its just frustrating to know with 100% certainty that I am right about the damage on this and have you argue till you drop dead of a stroke that I am wrong. I never said its not a small nerf but it is NOT a major huge nerf like your saying it is.Do you want screen shots of my AA's with an inclusive inventory of my gear in triplicate signed in the presence of a notary public?Int effects spell damage, and if you even paid attention to what I was saying in my posts I have over 1000 int in offensive stance. You probably have much much less. Of course if you had all the knowledge you 'claim' to have you would know not everyone has the same dmg numbers on the same abilitys since gear/int/spell dmg etc can change what dmg you do.</blockquote>The number I have posted are the raw numbers when I inspect the Master I Offensive stance. Now I really don't care what numbers you post as I don't believe they are accurate.It is the raw description of the stance and the numbers on it are lower than the numbers on the Stand Alone buff.The numbers I have posted are the numbers THAT I HAVE AFTER MERGER -- Now what you have does NOT impact me so stop trying to tell me what my numbers are. You want to say that I should have the same numbers as you have and that is NOT THE FACTS -- I realize facts are difficult for you to grapple with when they don't conform to your views.</blockquote>The fact of the matter is the numbers I have on live and the numbers I have on test are 'close' to each other, there is not a HUGE WIDE GAP like your saying there is.Regardless of what your min/max damage is on yours....the gap between them on live and on test should be comparable to mine. The game is set to follow certain rules. I never ever claimed they werent SOMEWHAT lower. They are however not off by hundreds of points like you were claiming...the margin is quite smaller.You can beleive me or not. I have nothing to gain from lying and the fact you claim that I am is laughable. Why would I take the time or go thru the trouble to lie about something that any other 80 SK can attest to? It would serve no purpose and be very easy for anyone to find the truth. Ask around. Have other 80 SK's tell you what they have. The margins between the live and test numbers will be comparable from mine and theirs...but NOT exact unless they had the exact same gear and everything as me. It will be off by a few one way or the other, but in the same ballpark.Thats the beauty of having lots of people trying this out....any other SK can look and compare...so why would I lie?Example :live 500-700 dmgtest 450-650 dmgthat is the same 'ratio' as:live 1000-1300 dmgtest 950-1250 dmgNow you can see those are not the same damage numbers....but compared to each other the 'diffrence' between the live and the test numbers are similiar. THAT is what I am talking about. The gap between what is currently on live and what is on test is not huge, its noticable though. Different gear can give diffrent results with how much dmg you do. that is common sense.Raiders can make you sick all day long. I dont raid on my SK...I only group. People who complain about eveything make me sick...but I dont feel the need to tell them that. Me and my 'greedy paws' really dont care.

Maroger

01-27-2009, 01:10 AM

<cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Those are the raw numbers you get when you inspect the abilitys. I have no special AA's that anyone else doesnt have. JUST THE TOP TIER PROC INCREASE IN THE SK TREE!!!!Arguing with you is worse than dealing with a teething baby. I have posted over and over again the actual data. Either pony up or get off the pot. I am not doctoring ANYTHING.I dont expect nor do I want to be right about everything....its just frustrating to know with 100% certainty that I am right about the damage on this and have you argue till you drop dead of a stroke that I am wrong. I never said its not a small nerf but it is NOT a major huge nerf like your saying it is.Do you want screen shots of my AA's with an inclusive inventory of my gear in triplicate signed in the presence of a notary public?Int effects spell damage, and if you even paid attention to what I was saying in my posts I have over 1000 int in offensive stance. You probably have much much less. Of course if you had all the knowledge you 'claim' to have you would know not everyone has the same dmg numbers on the same abilitys since gear/int/spell dmg etc can change what dmg you do.</blockquote>The number I have posted are the raw numbers when I inspect the Master I Offensive stance. Now I really don't care what numbers you post as I don't believe they are accurate.It is the raw description of the stance and the numbers on it are lower than the numbers on the Stand Alone buff.The numbers I have posted are the numbers THAT I HAVE AFTER MERGER -- Now what you have does NOT impact me so stop trying to tell me what my numbers are. You want to say that I should have the same numbers as you have and that is NOT THE FACTS -- I realize facts are difficult for you to grapple with when they don't conform to your views.</blockquote>The fact of the matter is the numbers I have on live and the numbers I have on test are 'close' to each other, there is not a HUGE WIDE GAP like your saying there is.Regardless of what your min/max damage is on yours....the gap between them on live and on test should be comparable to mine. The game is set to follow certain rules. I never ever claimed they werent SOMEWHAT lower. They are however not off by hundreds of points like you were claiming...the margin is quite smaller.You can beleive me or not. I have nothing to gain from lying and the fact you claim that I am is laughable. Why would I take the time or go thru the trouble to lie about something that any other 80 SK can attest to? It would serve no purpose and be very easy for anyone to find the truth. Ask around. Have other 80 SK's tell you what they have. The margins between the live and test numbers will be comparable from mine and theirs...but NOT exact unless they had the exact same gear and everything as me. It will be off by a few one way or the other, but in the same ballpark.Thats the beauty of having lots of people trying this out....any other SK can look and compare...so why would I lie?</blockquote>Your in a level 80 raiding guild so naturally you have the best you can get your greedy paws on so sure you have gear to compensate for the nerfs - stop trying to pretend otherwise. Raiders really make me sick -- they think everyone else sucks who does not raid and they believe that what is good for raiders is good for everyone. That sort of attitude nearly killed EQ1 and will surely kill this game.Raiders live in another world -- and fortunately most players don't live in that world. They seem to think the game should be designed around them -- that attitude ruins games.As I keep reminding you but you need to read BEFORE you write - I AM NOT LEVEL 80 -- I AM LEVEL 70 -- AND I SPEAK FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW. The view of level 80 does not interest me at all - it is valueless -- esp. one that is in a raiding guild. And you fail to mention how much more damage we take but with your raiding gear you probably don't notice - another problem with raiders - they don't understand that not everyone raids, wants to raid or has raiding gear.

Tandy

01-27-2009, 01:13 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Those are the raw numbers you get when you inspect the abilitys. I have no special AA's that anyone else doesnt have. JUST THE TOP TIER PROC INCREASE IN THE SK TREE!!!!Arguing with you is worse than dealing with a teething baby. I have posted over and over again the actual data. Either pony up or get off the pot. I am not doctoring ANYTHING.I dont expect nor do I want to be right about everything....its just frustrating to know with 100% certainty that I am right about the damage on this and have you argue till you drop dead of a stroke that I am wrong. I never said its not a small nerf but it is NOT a major huge nerf like your saying it is.Do you want screen shots of my AA's with an inclusive inventory of my gear in triplicate signed in the presence of a notary public?Int effects spell damage, and if you even paid attention to what I was saying in my posts I have over 1000 int in offensive stance. You probably have much much less. Of course if you had all the knowledge you 'claim' to have you would know not everyone has the same dmg numbers on the same abilitys since gear/int/spell dmg etc can change what dmg you do.</blockquote>The number I have posted are the raw numbers when I inspect the Master I Offensive stance. Now I really don't care what numbers you post as I don't believe they are accurate.It is the raw description of the stance and the numbers on it are lower than the numbers on the Stand Alone buff.The numbers I have posted are the numbers THAT I HAVE AFTER MERGER -- Now what you have does NOT impact me so stop trying to tell me what my numbers are. You want to say that I should have the same numbers as you have and that is NOT THE FACTS -- I realize facts are difficult for you to grapple with when they don't conform to your views.</blockquote>The fact of the matter is the numbers I have on live and the numbers I have on test are 'close' to each other, there is not a HUGE WIDE GAP like your saying there is.Regardless of what your min/max damage is on yours....the gap between them on live and on test should be comparable to mine. The game is set to follow certain rules. I never ever claimed they werent SOMEWHAT lower. They are however not off by hundreds of points like you were claiming...the margin is quite smaller.You can beleive me or not. I have nothing to gain from lying and the fact you claim that I am is laughable. Why would I take the time or go thru the trouble to lie about something that any other 80 SK can attest to? It would serve no purpose and be very easy for anyone to find the truth. Ask around. Have other 80 SK's tell you what they have. The margins between the live and test numbers will be comparable from mine and theirs...but NOT exact unless they had the exact same gear and everything as me. It will be off by a few one way or the other, but in the same ballpark.Thats the beauty of having lots of people trying this out....any other SK can look and compare...so why would I lie?</blockquote>Your in a level 80 raiding guild so naturally you have the best you can get your greedy paws on so sure you have gear to compensate for the nerfs - stop trying to pretend otherwise. Raiders really make me sick -- they think everyone else sucks who does not raid and they believe that what is good for raiders is good for everyone. That sort of attitude nearly killed EQ1 and will surely kill this game.Raiders live in another world -- and fortunately most players don't live in that world. They seem to think the game should be designed around them -- that attitude ruins games.As I keep reminding you but you need to read BEFORE you write - I AM NOT LEVEL 80 -- I AM LEVEL 70 -- AND I SPEAK FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW. The view of level 80 does not interest me at all - it is valueless -- esp. one that is in a raiding guild.</blockquote>I do NOT raid with my SK.I do not raid with my SK.I dont even have my mthyical epic on my sk. So since your grasping at straws on why I am evil and am trying to ruin your day let me get that one out of the way for you. I have instance gear...tier 1 void shard gear. NOTHING uber, and most SK's have WAY WAY better gear than me!

Maroger

01-27-2009, 01:18 AM

<cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Those are the raw numbers you get when you inspect the abilitys. I have no special AA's that anyone else doesnt have. JUST THE TOP TIER PROC INCREASE IN THE SK TREE!!!!Arguing with you is worse than dealing with a teething baby. I have posted over and over again the actual data. Either pony up or get off the pot. I am not doctoring ANYTHING.I dont expect nor do I want to be right about everything....its just frustrating to know with 100% certainty that I am right about the damage on this and have you argue till you drop dead of a stroke that I am wrong. I never said its not a small nerf but it is NOT a major huge nerf like your saying it is.Do you want screen shots of my AA's with an inclusive inventory of my gear in triplicate signed in the presence of a notary public?Int effects spell damage, and if you even paid attention to what I was saying in my posts I have over 1000 int in offensive stance. You probably have much much less. Of course if you had all the knowledge you 'claim' to have you would know not everyone has the same dmg numbers on the same abilitys since gear/int/spell dmg etc can change what dmg you do.</blockquote>The number I have posted are the raw numbers when I inspect the Master I Offensive stance. Now I really don't care what numbers you post as I don't believe they are accurate.It is the raw description of the stance and the numbers on it are lower than the numbers on the Stand Alone buff.The numbers I have posted are the numbers THAT I HAVE AFTER MERGER -- Now what you have does NOT impact me so stop trying to tell me what my numbers are. You want to say that I should have the same numbers as you have and that is NOT THE FACTS -- I realize facts are difficult for you to grapple with when they don't conform to your views.</blockquote>The fact of the matter is the numbers I have on live and the numbers I have on test are 'close' to each other, there is not a HUGE WIDE GAP like your saying there is.Regardless of what your min/max damage is on yours....the gap between them on live and on test should be comparable to mine. The game is set to follow certain rules. I never ever claimed they werent SOMEWHAT lower. They are however not off by hundreds of points like you were claiming...the margin is quite smaller.You can beleive me or not. I have nothing to gain from lying and the fact you claim that I am is laughable. Why would I take the time or go thru the trouble to lie about something that any other 80 SK can attest to? It would serve no purpose and be very easy for anyone to find the truth. Ask around. Have other 80 SK's tell you what they have. The margins between the live and test numbers will be comparable from mine and theirs...but NOT exact unless they had the exact same gear and everything as me. It will be off by a few one way or the other, but in the same ballpark.Thats the beauty of having lots of people trying this out....any other SK can look and compare...so why would I lie?</blockquote>Your in a level 80 raiding guild so naturally you have the best you can get your greedy paws on so sure you have gear to compensate for the nerfs - stop trying to pretend otherwise. Raiders really make me sick -- they think everyone else sucks who does not raid and they believe that what is good for raiders is good for everyone. That sort of attitude nearly killed EQ1 and will surely kill this game.Raiders live in another world -- and fortunately most players don't live in that world. They seem to think the game should be designed around them -- that attitude ruins games.As I keep reminding you but you need to read BEFORE you write - I AM NOT LEVEL 80 -- I AM LEVEL 70 -- AND I SPEAK FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW. The view of level 80 does not interest me at all - it is valueless -- esp. one that is in a raiding guild.</blockquote>I do NOT raid with my SK.I do not raid with my SK.I dont even have my mthyical epic on my sk. So since your grasping at straws on why I am evil and am trying to ruin your day let me get that one out of the way for you. I have instance gear...tier 1 void shard gear. NOTHING uber, and most SK's have WAY WAY better gear than me!</blockquote>Poor baby no mythcal - but belonging to a raiding guild I can rest assured you will get one. ANd I know how raiding guilds work - whether you are in the raid or not you can still get called into to enjoy the loot. So saying you don't raid doesn't mean squat - as you can still get you paws on the gear you want without raiding -- seen it done before so don;t pretend differently.

Tandy

01-27-2009, 01:21 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Poor baby no mythcal - but belonging to a raiding guild I can rest assured you will get one. ANd I know how raiding guilds work - whether you are in the raid or not you can still get called into to enjoy the loot. So saying you don't raid doesn't mean squat - as you can still get you paws on the gear you want without raiding -- seen it done before so don;t pretend differently.</blockquote>I didnt complain. Only stating I dont have it before you claim that is something that skews my testing. I am average run of the mill gear.You need to back off. period. I have tried to explain. I am the ordinary average instance ran geared toon. I gave my feedback and you seem to think I am trying to ruin something for you. Grow up. I am sorry your so bitter you have to lash out at me for something lacking in your life, but I frankly dont need it.

Maroger

01-27-2009, 01:31 AM

<cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Poor baby no mythcal - but belonging to a raiding guild I can rest assured you will get one. ANd I know how raiding guilds work - whether you are in the raid or not you can still get called into to enjoy the loot. So saying you don't raid doesn't mean squat - as you can still get you paws on the gear you want without raiding -- seen it done before so don;t pretend differently.</blockquote>I didnt complain. Only stating I dont have it before you claim that is something that skews my testing. I am average run of the mill gear.You need to back off. period. I have tried to explain. I am the ordinary average instance ran geared toon. I gave my feedback and you seem to think I am trying to ruin something for you. Grow up. I am sorry your so bitter you have to lash out at me for something lacking in your life, but I frankly dont need it.</blockquote>While the numbers for you are one thing - FOR ME THEY ARE A BIG NERF with this merger. I don't run instances so you have tons better gear with stats on it than I do. I don't want to do instances - too often I meet players like you and I had enough of your types on EQ1.So stop trying to tell me that this does not affect me -- it affects me a LOT -- And I am not bitter I am just sick of Forum Bullies like you who have to be right all the time. Your attitude is I am the only one who is right and you are such a sycophant about this patch -- it is pathetic. YOu will say and write anything to justify what is being done to ALL level of players-- for players THIS IS A NERF -- In offense they will do less damage, heal less and take more damage than they would with stand alone buff - THAT IS A NERF IN ANYONE'S BOOKS - The number are there whether you can read them or not.

Tandy

01-27-2009, 01:39 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Poor baby no mythcal - but belonging to a raiding guild I can rest assured you will get one. ANd I know how raiding guilds work - whether you are in the raid or not you can still get called into to enjoy the loot. So saying you don't raid doesn't mean squat - as you can still get you paws on the gear you want without raiding -- seen it done before so don;t pretend differently.</blockquote>I didnt complain. Only stating I dont have it before you claim that is something that skews my testing. I am average run of the mill gear.You need to back off. period. I have tried to explain. I am the ordinary average instance ran geared toon. I gave my feedback and you seem to think I am trying to ruin something for you. Grow up. I am sorry your so bitter you have to lash out at me for something lacking in your life, but I frankly dont need it.</blockquote>While the numbers for you are one thing - FOR ME THEY ARE A BIG NERF with this merger. I don't run instances so you have tons better gear with stats on it than I do. I don't want to do instances - too often I meet players like you and I had enough of your types on EQ1.So stop trying to tell me that this does not affect me -- it affects me a LOT -- And I am not bitter I am just sick of Forum Bullies like you who have to be right all the time. Your attitude is I am the only one who is right and you are such a sycophant about this patch -- it is pathetic. YOu will say and write anything to justify what is being done to ALL level of players-- for players THIS IS A NERF -- In offense they will do less damage, heal less and take more damage than they would with stand alone buff - THAT IS A NERF IN ANYONE'S BOOKS - The number are there whether you can read them or not.</blockquote>This will likely be the last post I write in response to you. I am the type of person that will run instance with people who need things from them and not complain. I am the one who refuses to roll on things someone really needs. I am the type that forgoes something I want if I know someone else wants it more. I am the one who goes the extra mile to help strangers in game, just because I hate it when I need help with something and no one wants to take time for me. I am the type you wish you knew. So you judging me as someone 'you hate' without even knowing me is just flat out wrong.Anyone who knows me in game will tell you the same. I am a good person. I rarely agree with things SOE does in patches and I am usually critical of them. This is one instance where I think some of it is actually good, and my testing shows that. Regardless of what you believe those are the facts.Its people like you that always have made me shy away from giving much feedback. Enjoy thinking whatever you want about me, its not something I will lose sleep over one way or the other.

Noaani

01-27-2009, 02:53 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>This simply not true Aeralik so stop saying say we haven't lost anything . We sure have lost a lot.I.e GRIM STIKE currently I do 438-730 damage and heal at 224-374 - I have it at Master I.</blockquote>The fact that you still have numbers to compare the difference between test and live means you did not lose Grim Strike. It may be nerfed (intentional or not), but you did not lose it.

Kordran

01-27-2009, 06:47 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact that you still have numbers to compare the difference between test and live means you did not lose Grim Strike. It may be nerfed (intentional or not), but you did not lose it.</blockquote>What has been lost as a result of the buff consolidation is effectiveness. Mostly as a side-effect of having those buffs merged into lower level spells. I think that's been pretty clear to everyone in this thread (well, except perhaps you, unless you were just making a pointless, rhetorical observation).

Terron

01-27-2009, 08:30 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>A</cite>Once again you haven't lost anything. When they are merged its added into the spells it was merged with. In the case of the stances it might have been adjusted to match the flavor of the stance but overall nothing is lost. The only difference is that if you were casting 5 buffs previously its probably 2 now which makes life a little easier after all is said and done.</blockquote>Please stop saying that. It is just not true and annoys people who know that. It also gives the impression that you don't know what you are talking about.We have lost flexibility at the very least. You have said that we should be losing the ability to tank and do high DP, part of which is coming from the buff merge.We also gain stuff, but even if we think we come out ahead overall there is certainly stuff we are loosing,Reducing the number of buffs for fighters has it downside. My fury has more than ten buffs to cast. The tanks often run off and start pulling before she has finished rebuffing now. This will make that worse.I happen to think that merging the buffs is a good thing overall.

Illine

01-27-2009, 09:58 AM

<cite>Straco@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am not sure if this has been mentioned or not but you aren't give all your stances at the same time when you level. At 58 Monk get a def stance and mid stance but dont get the off stance upgrade till 63. Till then we have to use a off stance that gives less str and wis because the buffs were merged. I dont think its right that now we are forced to have less stats in a stance while leveling because the upgrade is 5 levels ahead (not the same for everyone). Another thing I have noticed with the monks skill line not sure about the other fighters is that Inner Focus (lvl 54) is merged into our lvl 58 and 63 stances and I would assume (correct me if I am wrong) Focal Serenity (lvl 6<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> Is merged into the next stances 71 (Mid) 72 (Def) 75 (off) now at level 79 we get Chakra an upgrade to our str/wis buff but we dont get anymore stance upgrades so we actully lose a buff. This might not be the case of all fighters but what I have observed as a monk.I know Inner Focus merged into those stances because on Test I was given Adept III versions of those three skills and out of the skills merged at my level (60 at the time) was the only adept III I had.One thing I want to know is will we be getting upgrades to our stances since our level 79 buff was not the one merged into the stances. (Unless I am wrong) If not then you effectively just nerged our STR/WIS buff at 79/80. The mergers need to be reworked or stances added or unmerged.</blockquote>so what will happen to the lvl 79 buff??My bruiser is 67 but I already got the lvl 79 STR/AGI buff which waits in the bank. With the LU 51, what will happen to my master in the bank??? worthless??

Noaani

01-27-2009, 10:08 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote> unless you were just making a pointless, rhetorical observation</blockquote>Thats pretty much it.Of all six fighters, the only thing "lost" in this update was paladins losing their hate siphon. Some things may have been nerfed (whether intentional or not), but they are still there.Even if it is mostly for when in defensive, this update is a nerf to fighter DPS. Next time one of my classes gets nerfed in a way I don't agree with, I'll have to pull out the "but we LOST this ability!" card, which is essentially what Maroger has done.

Maroger

01-27-2009, 11:38 AM

<cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Straco@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am not sure if this has been mentioned or not but you aren't give all your stances at the same time when you level. At 58 Monk get a def stance and mid stance but dont get the off stance upgrade till 63. Till then we have to use a off stance that gives less str and wis because the buffs were merged. I dont think its right that now we are forced to have less stats in a stance while leveling because the upgrade is 5 levels ahead (not the same for everyone). Another thing I have noticed with the monks skill line not sure about the other fighters is that Inner Focus (lvl 54) is merged into our lvl 58 and 63 stances and I would assume (correct me if I am wrong) Focal Serenity (lvl 6<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> Is merged into the next stances 71 (Mid) 72 (Def) 75 (off) now at level 79 we get Chakra an upgrade to our str/wis buff but we dont get anymore stance upgrades so we actully lose a buff. This might not be the case of all fighters but what I have observed as a monk.I know Inner Focus merged into those stances because on Test I was given Adept III versions of those three skills and out of the skills merged at my level (60 at the time) was the only adept III I had.One thing I want to know is will we be getting upgrades to our stances since our level 79 buff was not the one merged into the stances. (Unless I am wrong) If not then you effectively just nerged our STR/WIS buff at 79/80. The mergers need to be reworked or stances added or unmerged.</blockquote>so what will happen to the lvl 79 buff??My bruiser is 67 but I already got the lvl 79 STR/AGI buff which waits in the bank. With the LU 51, what will happen to my master in the bank??? worthless??</blockquote>Although nothing has been said I would assume that you won't get them. All the separate buffs have been removed from the spell book and I assume I would get my Level 77+ version of those buffs. I haven't heard of another level of stances being added beyond the ones at level 72/72

Jrral

01-27-2009, 12:29 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was at Fan Faire last year when the buffs to apply came up in a panel. The one who brought that up was a Warden, not a fighter, who commented about the umpteen zillion buffs to reapply. and how fighters always would run off before they could finish. Fighters can buff on the fly, healers interrupted themselves at that time. I know buffing on the run has been added in currently, but back then it wasn't. There was a lot of murmuring agreement from others, but I didn't hear any fighters say it'd be a good thing to have less buffs.</blockquote>Seconded. Time spent buffing my berserker is rarely an issue. I only have a handful of buffs, almost all of them cast quickly and on the run. The only one that's annoying to reapply is my diety pet and I can usually live without that if I'm direly pressed for time (eg. buffing after a rez and needing to get back into the fight ASAP). Contrast that with say a warden, who has almost as many single-target buffs to cast on other players as my 'zerker has in total, on top of all their self-buffs and group buffs. If the time it takes for a fighter to buff is a major factor, someone's seriously misapprehending what players consider important.

Anurra

01-27-2009, 01:07 PM

lol talk about a major thread derail guys. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Matia

01-27-2009, 01:10 PM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>If the time it takes for a fighter to buff is a major factor, someone's seriously misapprehending what players consider important.</blockquote>They aren't misunderstanding. The whole "buffing time" statement is just a line they came up with to distract folks into thinking this was done "for their benefit".The real reason is to take things away from players unless they act like/play like the Dev wants them to and for them to conform to the desires of the Dev.Any other statement is an evasion.

Scythien

01-27-2009, 01:11 PM

<cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Straco@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am not sure if this has been mentioned or not but you aren't give all your stances at the same time when you level. At 58 Monk get a def stance and mid stance but dont get the off stance upgrade till 63. Till then we have to use a off stance that gives less str and wis because the buffs were merged. I dont think its right that now we are forced to have less stats in a stance while leveling because the upgrade is 5 levels ahead (not the same for everyone). Another thing I have noticed with the monks skill line not sure about the other fighters is that Inner Focus (lvl 54) is merged into our lvl 58 and 63 stances and I would assume (correct me if I am wrong) Focal Serenity (lvl 6<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> Is merged into the next stances 71 (Mid) 72 (Def) 75 (off) now at level 79 we get Chakra an upgrade to our str/wis buff but we dont get anymore stance upgrades so we actully lose a buff. This might not be the case of all fighters but what I have observed as a monk.I know Inner Focus merged into those stances because on Test I was given Adept III versions of those three skills and out of the skills merged at my level (60 at the time) was the only adept III I had.One thing I want to know is will we be getting upgrades to our stances since our level 79 buff was not the one merged into the stances. (Unless I am wrong) If not then you effectively just nerged our STR/WIS buff at 79/80. The mergers need to be reworked or stances added or unmerged.</blockquote>so what will happen to the lvl 79 buff??My bruiser is 67 but I already got the lvl 79 STR/AGI buff which waits in the bank. With the LU 51, what will happen to my master in the bank??? worthless??</blockquote>As I understand it, any merged abilities are updated to the highest grade of the two. I.e Merge a Master and an Adept 3 together, the 'new' ability will be master.If your spare STR/AGI master is merged into the stace(s) then I'd guess that having that would make them master abilities too, once scribed. But I can't say for sure.

Obadiah

01-27-2009, 01:16 PM

I would be interested in seeing a comprehensive list of what was lost/gained in the roll up. And I don't mean because of changing where a buff falls in level progression as I think that's irrelavant. (Just my opinion, don't shoot)Guards lost 10 Stamina from one buff, right? That it?Zerkers (as mentioned) lost 3 Defense & Parry, 1.4 Aggression, and a third of our Berserk triggers.What about the other 4? What, if anything, is ACTUALLY lost/gained from live to test?

Maroger

01-27-2009, 02:40 PM

<cite>Scythien wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Straco@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am not sure if this has been mentioned or not but you aren't give all your stances at the same time when you level. At 58 Monk get a def stance and mid stance but dont get the off stance upgrade till 63. Till then we have to use a off stance that gives less str and wis because the buffs were merged. I dont think its right that now we are forced to have less stats in a stance while leveling because the upgrade is 5 levels ahead (not the same for everyone). Another thing I have noticed with the monks skill line not sure about the other fighters is that Inner Focus (lvl 54) is merged into our lvl 58 and 63 stances and I would assume (correct me if I am wrong) Focal Serenity (lvl 6<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> Is merged into the next stances 71 (Mid) 72 (Def) 75 (off) now at level 79 we get Chakra an upgrade to our str/wis buff but we dont get anymore stance upgrades so we actully lose a buff. This might not be the case of all fighters but what I have observed as a monk.I know Inner Focus merged into those stances because on Test I was given Adept III versions of those three skills and out of the skills merged at my level (60 at the time) was the only adept III I had.One thing I want to know is will we be getting upgrades to our stances since our level 79 buff was not the one merged into the stances. (Unless I am wrong) If not then you effectively just nerged our STR/WIS buff at 79/80. The mergers need to be reworked or stances added or unmerged.</blockquote>so what will happen to the lvl 79 buff??My bruiser is 67 but I already got the lvl 79 STR/AGI buff which waits in the bank. With the LU 51, what will happen to my master in the bank??? worthless??</blockquote>As I understand it, any merged abilities are updated to the highest grade of the two. I.e Merge a Master and an Adept 3 together, the 'new' ability will be master.If your spare STR/AGI master is merged into the stace(s) then I'd guess that having that would make them master abilities too, once scribed. But I can't say for sure.</blockquote>Well that isn't completely true. I had both my buffs at Mast.I - Def. Stance was Master I and Off Stance was Adept III -- I am level 70. On the merger I got my current level of both stances plus they added to my spell book the Master I versions of OFF Stance and DEF Stance which I don't get until level 72/73. Aeralik explained that it was done that way because both my buffs were higher levels than my stances.We get our stances early in the level and the buffs late in the level.

Leeotis

01-28-2009, 02:27 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Scythien wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Straco@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am not sure if this has been mentioned or not but you aren't give all your stances at the same time when you level. At 58 Monk get a def stance and mid stance but dont get the off stance upgrade till 63. Till then we have to use a off stance that gives less str and wis because the buffs were merged. I dont think its right that now we are forced to have less stats in a stance while leveling because the upgrade is 5 levels ahead (not the same for everyone). Another thing I have noticed with the monks skill line not sure about the other fighters is that Inner Focus (lvl 54) is merged into our lvl 58 and 63 stances and I would assume (correct me if I am wrong) Focal Serenity (lvl 6<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> Is merged into the next stances 71 (Mid) 72 (Def) 75 (off) now at level 79 we get Chakra an upgrade to our str/wis buff but we dont get anymore stance upgrades so we actully lose a buff. This might not be the case of all fighters but what I have observed as a monk.I know Inner Focus merged into those stances because on Test I was given Adept III versions of those three skills and out of the skills merged at my level (60 at the time) was the only adept III I had.One thing I want to know is will we be getting upgrades to our stances since our level 79 buff was not the one merged into the stances. (Unless I am wrong) If not then you effectively just nerged our STR/WIS buff at 79/80. The mergers need to be reworked or stances added or unmerged.</blockquote>so what will happen to the lvl 79 buff??My bruiser is 67 but I already got the lvl 79 STR/AGI buff which waits in the bank. With the LU 51, what will happen to my master in the bank??? worthless??</blockquote>As I understand it, any merged abilities are updated to the highest grade of the two. I.e Merge a Master and an Adept 3 together, the 'new' ability will be master.If your spare STR/AGI master is merged into the stace(s) then I'd guess that having that would make them master abilities too, once scribed. But I can't say for sure.</blockquote>Well that isn't completely true. I had both my buffs at Mast.I - Def. Stance was Master I and Off Stance was Adept III -- I am level 70. On the merger I got my current level of both stances plus they added to my spell book the Master I versions of OFF Stance and DEF Stance which I don't get until level 72/73. Aeralik explained that it was done that way because both my buffs were higher levels than my stances.We get our stances early in the level and the buffs late in the level.</blockquote>(This is Straco, my other account for some reason can't post)What I was saying wasn't that we dont get the abilities with the merger but rather we have to wait to get upgraded str/wis (monk) or str/agi (bruiser) so for a few levels we will be forced to have lesser stats till we get the upgraded stance. That is more of an annoyance than a problem.The real problem is that we nolonger get an upgrade at level 79 to our stat buff. The stances are merged with the lower level stat buff and so the upgrade doesnt happen. I had asked a level 80 on the test server for that stats on there stances and they were somthing like 85/128 (not exact numbers but around that) now adept III chakra is 91/136 now thats not a huge difference but still it is. I am not sure what the difference at M1 or the other skill levels is but it could be bigger. Why should we lose an upgrade because of the merge that just seems stupid. They need to merge the spells different or give us away to upgrade them. Also if you have a chakra spell scroll not sure how thats going to work since it was removed not merged.