Undead Horde

[Silerua]

<p>   Okay - perhaps I need to go back to necro school and relearn the basics of Undead Horde (and its variants).  When it says "Summons 12 limited pets to aid the caster," does it really mean "up to 12?"  I recently updated my Undead Horde to Master I and am noticing only three mobs, each a different class (tank, healer, and mage, I beleive?).  I looked through the combat log and they seem to be doing poor damage against 70-71 ^^^ heroics.  While I don't have any parses from before I upgraded, I would place money that they would do more noticeable damage than they are now.</p><p>  I always assumed that the additional via corpses thing was + to the 12.  I do know that I would have a lot more undead in my horde in the past.  Now it's more like an undead pack or, as someone said when I brought this up to them, "an undead random gathering of people outside a closed theatre."</p><p>  Or perhaps I'm just crazy... (:  Thanks for any insight into this!</p>

[Xil]

<p>It should be summoning 4 without points in Undead Horde and 6 with points in it.</p><p>There isn't a healer type.  Just Mage and Melee types.</p><p>If you read the buff you'll notice there is a corpse requirement to summon the "up to 12".  I know it's rediculous since corses vanish when they are looted but they left it in there anyway...</p><p>Undead Horde is supposed to be one of our most powerful abilities but because of the corpse requirement and the fact that the dumbfires don't scale even up to 80 let alone past 80 as is required by almost all end game content... Undead Horde is fairly ineffective compared to its rediculous refresh and both an HP drain and corpse requirement.</p><p>It's one of the main abilities that needs to be adjusted for Necro.  In a raid situation on fully debuffed mobs, Undead Horde is much more useful.  But without dispatched and every availible disease/poison and wis debuff on the mob it still won't produce any real numbers.</p><p>It should do a bit more damage than a well buffed lifeburn over a period of 60 seconds but it generally only produces about 1/4 that total.</p><p>On encounters like Overking in KorSha it does extremely well because you can meet the corpse requirement.  Other than that it's just a small bonus to DPS once every 12 to 14 minutes.</p><p>The only time I use it is right after I Lifeburn so it catches the JCap from Lifeburn.  Or when I am soloing a difficult mob and it's 15-20% health and I want to finish it off a little faster.</p>

[Silerua]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It should be summoning 4 without points in Undead Horde and 6 with points in it.</p></blockquote><p>I'm only getting three - no points in Undead Horde with my current pseudo-spec. I did have points in there in another spec, so that might explain why I'm noticing a lack of a horde.</p><blockquote><p>There isn't a healer type. Just Mage and Melee types.</p></blockquote><p>Really? I thought there was the mage (the one wearing a cloth hood and wielding a staff), the healer (the one with the square buckler shield and some goofy clown pants), and the fighter/meelee (the one in plate with the sword). I saw some healing procs in the combat log from one of the undead "horde," so I just assumed.</p><blockquote><p>If you read the buff you'll notice there is a corpse requirement to summon the "up to 12".</p></blockquote><p>ho-hum. "Summons an army of undead kin at the cost of health ... The number of undead summoned increases based on the quantity of nearby corpses. ... * Summons 12 limited pets to aid the caster."The lack of any "up to" is what had/has me confused. Seriously, though - how can you call 4 dudes an army. I call shenanigans!</p>

[Xil]

<p>It is pretty rediculous that's for sure.  It should summon 12 regardless of corpses and the recast should be about half as long.  7.5 to 8 minutes.</p><p>And yes, they cast lifetaps, that's why you see them on the heal parse.</p>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Aurelis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It should be summoning 4 without points in Undead Horde and 6 with points in it.</p></blockquote><p>I'm only getting three - no points in Undead Horde with my current pseudo-spec. I did have points in there in another spec, so that might explain why I'm noticing a lack of a horde.</p><blockquote><p>There isn't a healer type. Just Mage and Melee types.</p></blockquote><p>Really? I thought there was the mage (the one wearing a cloth hood and wielding a staff), the healer (the one with the square buckler shield and some goofy clown pants), and the fighter/meelee (the one in plate with the sword). I saw some healing procs in the combat log from one of the undead "horde," so I just assumed.</p><blockquote><p>If you read the buff you'll notice there is a corpse requirement to summon the "up to 12".</p></blockquote><p>ho-hum. "Summons an army of undead kin at the cost of health ... The number of undead summoned increases based on the quantity of nearby corpses. ... * Summons 12 limited pets to aid the caster."The lack of any "up to" is what had/has me confused. Seriously, though - how can you call 4 dudes an army. I call shenanigans!</p></blockquote><p>Despite what Xil said they do scale, tho there is a bug with them at the moment that summons half Undead Horde and half Undead Tide.  I believe the fighter types are still summoned with the previous tier spell.</p><p>You are correct what looks like a healer type mob is also summoned.  They are a pseudo healer, they cast spells and melee but do not heal.  The mages cast a lifetap dot, that is where you see the heals from.</p><p>When you get all 12 out they do a LOT of damage, its getting them out that is a problem.  With the AA spec I believe its 5 out and without its 3.</p><p>Part of the fix solution for this I believe if they won't ever throw us a bone about reducing the recast is to make it 12 no matter what, with the AA adding an additional 2.  tbh also I would just prefer they summoned mage's instead of the other useless morons that rush in to die immediately.</p>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aurelis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It should be summoning 4 without points in Undead Horde and 6 with points in it.</p></blockquote><p>I'm only getting three - no points in Undead Horde with my current pseudo-spec. I did have points in there in another spec, so that might explain why I'm noticing a lack of a horde.</p><blockquote><p>There isn't a healer type. Just Mage and Melee types.</p></blockquote><p>Really? I thought there was the mage (the one wearing a cloth hood and wielding a staff), the healer (the one with the square buckler shield and some goofy clown pants), and the fighter/meelee (the one in plate with the sword). I saw some healing procs in the combat log from one of the undead "horde," so I just assumed.</p><blockquote><p>If you read the buff you'll notice there is a corpse requirement to summon the "up to 12".</p></blockquote><p>ho-hum. "Summons an army of undead kin at the cost of health ... The number of undead summoned increases based on the quantity of nearby corpses. ... * Summons 12 limited pets to aid the caster."The lack of any "up to" is what had/has me confused. Seriously, though - how can you call 4 dudes an army. I call shenanigans!</p></blockquote><p>Despite what Xil said they do scale, tho there is a bug with them at the moment that summons half Undead Horde and half Undead Tide.  I believe the fighter types are still summoned with the previous tier spell.</p><p>You are correct what looks like a healer type mob is also summoned.  They are a pseudo healer, they cast spells and melee but do not heal.  The mages cast a lifetap dot, that is where you see the heals from.</p><p>When you get all 12 out they do a LOT of damage, its getting them out that is a problem.  With the AA spec I believe its 5 out and without its 3.</p><p>Part of the fix solution for this I believe if they won't ever throw us a bone about reducing the recast is to make it 12 no matter what, with the AA adding an additional 2.  tbh also I would just prefer they summoned mage's instead of the other useless morons that rush in to die immediately.</p></blockquote><p>When was the last time you were a Necro again Sabu?  Cause you appear to be a Conjy...</p>

[Silerua]

<p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Part of the fix solution for this I believe if they won't ever throw us a bone about reducing the recast is to make it 12 no matter what, with the AA adding an additional 2.  tbh also I would just prefer they summoned mage's instead of the other useless morons that rush in to die immediately.</p></blockquote><p>I would love just pure mages... mwuah hua hua! Imagine the power!However, in seriousness, I would totally accept the long recast if I could have my 12 minions. Heck, allow the number to also scale via the level of the spell. I saved up and got a Master I - that should at least give me an extra minion or two over an Apprentice level. P:for now, I'll just respec to get those two extra dudes to feel a little more like an army of undead kin. *sigh*</p>

[Germs666]

<p>I agree with everyone here on this. It should be one of our main DPS spells but since it's so buggy and the recast is so long, I usually save it for the first named (since people parse I need to show that I shouldn't be replaced yet so I can finish the raid/instance) and the last named.</p><p>Not everyone can bank on having Jcap since troubs are betraying to dirges since casters aren't desirable compared to scout DPS.</p><p>My main gripes are: AoE spells wiping these out way too soon, 15 min recast??!!, corpse requirement (when corpses disappear in seconds) and all of that giggling!</p><p>A simple fix would be: 4 min recast, change the spell to a DoT w/graphic (so no AoE wipes), no corpse requirement (ever tell 5-23 other people not to loot something??) and make it a random 6-10 pets (+2 with AA line bonus so 8-12)</p>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Aurelis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Part of the fix solution for this I believe if they won't ever throw us a bone about reducing the recast is to make it 12 no matter what, with the AA adding an additional 2.  tbh also I would just prefer they summoned mage's instead of the other useless morons that rush in to die immediately.</p></blockquote><p>I would love just pure mages... mwuah hua hua! Imagine the power!However, in seriousness, I would totally accept the long recast if I could have my 12 minions. Heck, allow the number to also scale via the level of the spell. I saved up and got a Master I - that should at least give me an extra minion or two over an Apprentice level. P:for now, I'll just respec to get those two extra dudes to feel a little more like an army of undead kin. *sigh*</p></blockquote><p>I believe the only difference on the quality is the difference in mobs summoned.  So a master spell will spawn master casters using master spells, etc.</p>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree with everyone here on this. It should be one of our main DPS spells but since it's so buggy and the recast is so long, I usually save it for the first named (since people parse I need to show that I shouldn't be replaced yet so I can finish the raid/instance) and the last named.</p><p>Not everyone can bank on having Jcap since troubs are betraying to dirges since casters aren't desirable compared to scout DPS.</p><p>My main gripes are: AoE spells wiping these out way too soon, 15 min recast??!!, corpse requirement (when corpses disappear in seconds) and all of that giggling!</p><p>A simple fix would be: 4 min recast, change the spell to a DoT w/graphic (so no AoE wipes), no corpse requirement (ever tell 5-23 other people not to loot something??) and make it a random 6-10 pets (+2 with AA line bonus so 8-12)</p></blockquote><p>can't get greedy, if you want a 4 min recast you have to leave the dumbfire nature alone, or vice versa.  It would actually be a decent dps tool if it was max cast every time with no AE deaths, I can see that being a 15 min recast spell.</p><p>And it is indeed hard to tell people not to loot something, its shiny...gotta have it!!</p>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When was the last time you were a Necro again Sabu?  Cause you appear to be a Conjy...</p></blockquote><p>do some research</p>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>betraying to dirges since casters aren't desirable compared to scout DPS.</p></blockquote><p>You have this stuck in your head for some reason but it couldn't be any farther from the truth.  You absolutley have to have both Mage "AND" Scout DPS for raiding.</p><p>And the zonewide depends entirely on the way you build the raid.  If you run 3 Dirge with raidwide CoB of course the scouts will out parse the mages.  They get CoB every second of every fight.</p><p>If you run 2 dirge and 2 trouby instead you spread the DPS evenly across the board and instead of seeing all scouts on the top you see a mix of scout and mage like you should.</p><p>Scout DPS is preferable to certain tanks.  Guardian and zerker do better with scouts and dirge, SK Paly do better with mage and troubador. </p><p>It's all about how you build the group or the raid.  Not about one being better than the other.</p><p>That's just a gross misconception.</p>

[Germs666]

<p>Well from a raid standpoint I can see where Mage DPS would be needed, but T1 mages usually fill those. There might be a summoner for hearts/shards though!</p><p>As far as the Scout DPS>Mage DPS thing goes, it's usually the people shouting for DPS spots for shard groups or instances.</p><p>I see many people who wouldn't take a necro along for any of the harder instances. (and I don't have a bad rep yet haha)</p><p>I play in a lot of pickup groups so I don't get the luxury of having a Templar,Troub or Illys with me like you seem to on all of your parses. Don't get me wrong, I take a lot of your advice Xil,but I can see scouts outperform necros easily with no chanters or bards in grp, I've seen a fury out DPS me, I see SKS doing the same.</p><p>Our cast times/recovery unbuffed are way too slow. Simply speeding these up would improve us tremendously. It wouldn't make us OP for soloing because we'd rip aggro from our tank pets from our damage output.</p><p>We just lack in burst damage spells severely, and our scout & mage pets should be at least 40% of our DPS considering their horrible HP amount.</p>

[RandomCarnage]

<p><cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>...our scout & mage pets should be at least 40% of our DPS considering their horrible HP amount.</p></blockquote><p>SoE is working on this...but not through raising pet dps...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Silerua]

<p><cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It wouldn't make us OP for soloing because we'd rip aggro from our tank pets from our damage output.</p></blockquote><p>Hehe - dunno about you, but if I'm not careful, I can still rip aggro from my poor tank pet, Harvey, which is saying a lot because I put out terrible DPS. P;</p><p> Okay, two things:</p><p> 1) So what is the final verdict on Undead Horde? Is it bugged, underappreciated in development, or working as desired by SoE and not accepted by us? hehe.</p><p> 2) Ugh... the topic of Mage vs. Scout pet has always bothered me. I've tried to read discussions, but I see things from both sides, so it's hard for me to make up my mind. I won't get into why a controller of undead summons a spider drachnid dude, among various previous mobs who aren't really undead...?? (see what I did there? I said I wouldn't, but I actually did... mwuah hua!)</p><p> Am I mistaken that the Mage pet has poor AI? I could swear that when I've tried to use him, if he isn't in line of sight of the mob, he just stands there like an idiot. I know, my pets are my responsibility, but still...! I wouldn't mind a small spell where he teleports within a certain radius, like my Dark Elf "Shadow Slip" ability, if he can't see the target... Unless I'm wrong and he doesn't actually do this. In which case, I'm back to just one reason to use my Scout over my Mage (group with a coercer; mage tends to break the mezzes).</p><p> I'd personally love to see more undead themes to necromancers. Rats? Imps? Spider drachnid dudes? I completely adore our stun being skeletal hands and all. It's kind of like we're half undead masters, half things-that-are-considered-kind-of-evil-or-yucky masters. I want to "revive" a mob corpse as a ghost and send it after someone as a temp. pet... but that's a stretch of a wish, I know. P:</p>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Aurelis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It wouldn't make us OP for soloing because we'd rip aggro from our tank pets from our damage output.</p></blockquote><p>Hehe - dunno about you, but if I'm not careful, I can still rip aggro from my poor tank pet, Harvey, which is saying a lot because I put out terrible DPS. P;</p><p> Okay, two things:</p><p> 1) So what is the final verdict on Undead Horde? Is it bugged, underappreciated in development, or working as desired by SoE and not accepted by us? hehe.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Bugged and Broken and no fix is planned</span></p><p> 2) Ugh... the topic of Mage vs. Scout pet has always bothered me. I've tried to read discussions, but I see things from both sides, so it's hard for me to make up my mind. I won't get into why a controller of undead summons a spider drachnid dude, among various previous mobs who aren't really undead...?? (see what I did there? I said I wouldn't, but I actually did... mwuah hua!) <span style="color: #ff0000;">The Scout Pet is currently out performing our Mythical Mage Pet in groups.</span></p><p> Am I mistaken that the Mage pet has poor AI? I could swear that when I've tried to use him, if he isn't in line of sight of the mob, he just stands there like an idiot. I know, my pets are my responsibility, but still...! I wouldn't mind a small spell where he teleports within a certain radius, like my Dark Elf "Shadow Slip" ability, if he can't see the target... Unless I'm wrong and he doesn't actually do this. In which case, I'm back to just one reason to use my Scout over my Mage (group with a coercer; mage tends to break the mezzes).  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Yeah he stands there like an Idiot I have to use summon minion all the [Removed for Content] time it pisses me off to no end</span></p><p> I'd personally love to see more undead themes to necromancers. Rats? Imps? Spider drachnid dudes? I completely adore our stun being skeletal hands and all. It's kind of like we're half undead masters, half things-that-are-considered-kind-of-evil-or-yucky masters. I want to "revive" a mob corpse as a ghost and send it after someone as a temp. pet... but that's a stretch of a wish, I know. P:</p></blockquote>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Germs666 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well from a raid standpoint I can see where Mage DPS would be needed, but T1 mages usually fill those. There might be a summoner for hearts/shards though!  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Scouts also do terrible in AE content. Without Mage DPS alot of TSO is exceptionally difficult as well.  And I sit 1st or 2nd on every zone wide on Raids.  I don't let them stick me in the scout group with no buffs.  That's just stupid.  Summoner get more than any other Mage class in total DPS by being in the Mage group with Mage buffs.</span></p><p>As far as the Scout DPS>Mage DPS thing goes, it's usually the people shouting for DPS spots for shard groups or instances.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Likely because they already have a Mage.</span></p><p>I see many people who wouldn't take a necro along for any of the harder instances. (and I don't have a bad rep yet haha)  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Without Mage DPS or Teir 4+ gear to make the content trivial you can't complete the harder TSO zones.</span></p><p>I play in a lot of pickup groups so I don't get the luxury of having a Templar,Troub or Illys with me like you seem to on all of your parses. Don't get me wrong, I take a lot of your advice Xil,but I can see scouts outperform necros easily with no chanters or bards in grp, I've seen a fury out DPS me, I see SKS doing the same.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I make the groups.  And I stack them with the support required.  If you just throw 6 classes together you aren't gonna get through even moderate TSO zones.  You have to build the group correctly based on the kind of tank and DPS you have.</span></p><p>Our cast times/recovery unbuffed are way too slow. Simply speeding these up would improve us tremendously. It wouldn't make us OP for soloing because we'd rip aggro from our tank pets from our damage output.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">You can gear yourself to make up for most of it.  That's what they expect Summoner to do is spend ungodly amounts of time trying to farm the perfect set of gear for everything.  I parse 5k without group buffs and 6 to 7k when I lifeburn.  It's all about using the right gear.</span></p><p>We just lack in burst damage spells severely, and our scout & mage pets should be at least 40% of our DPS considering their horrible HP amount.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">They should be doing a lot more but currently the base damage of even out Mythical Mage pet is about 1100 to 1200 DPS with a full set of TSO pet gear on which is completely stupid 80% of our DPS comes from us directly.</span></p></blockquote>

[Davngr1]

<p>your limited pets count as bodies, i will sometimes send them towards the front of the mob so they die(not hard) then cast UH.   </p><p>tbh this is not an important spell it's every 15 min or so and dies to aoe.   would be nice if it was more like communion(conj spell) with a shorter recast and just get rid of the corps all togther</p>

[Paleskinn]

And I was wondering what I was doing wrong, UH doing 1% or less of my damage. Bah, another strike on the necros head.

[azraelteir]

<p>I have to say, personaly, I love being a Necromancer.  I know this isnt the popular opinion at the moment, but ohh well.  I have played a Necro for over 4 years now and I doubt I will ever give it up.  Now I may be one of the lucky few, but I was able to find a guild where I earned the position of main raiding necro.  I have taken the time to work with my Raid/Guild Leader on understanding how Necro DPS works, at least according to my play style, and because of this I am consistantly in the top 4 of the raidwide parse.</p><p>Dont get me wrong, I dont disagree that as a class we have our issues and need some TLC, but we are still functional, how can we not be when I am parsing less than 200dps below a Myth Assassin and Warlock.</p><p>To start, my Necro is an Euridite, which means I have Aura Sense so I did a test the other day and cast my Horde while my Aura Sense was on and I was shocked too see that there are actually priests in the horde, I never took the time to look previously to be honest.  They may not be functional healers (since they typically run up and melee the mob, and die) but they are a healer class. </p><p>One of the things I worked with my Raid Leader on was not looting trash from bodies in zones that have lots of trash to leave bodies (SOH for example).  In these cases I am usually able to max out my Horde with no problem, and in cases like this I am usually able to see a signifigant increase in my DPS, mostly from the Horde Mages since they DPS from a distance and can avoid AOEs better than the healers and melee.</p><p>Xil, I just wanted to say that I have read many of your posts, and I tend to agree with your point of view on things more often than not.  We may be a broken class, but it dosnt mean we cant still hit the top of the parse in any situation.</p><p>A.Z.</p>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>azraelteir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to say, personaly, I love being a Necromancer.  I know this isnt the popular opinion at the moment, but ohh well.  I have played a Necro for over 4 years now and I doubt I will ever give it up.  Now I may be one of the lucky few, but I was able to find a guild where I earned the position of main raiding necro.  I have taken the time to work with my Raid/Guild Leader on understanding how Necro DPS works, at least according to my play style, and because of this I am consistantly in the top 4 of the raidwide parse.</p><p>Dont get me wrong, I dont disagree that as a class we have our issues and need some TLC, but we are still functional, how can we not be when I am parsing less than 200dps below a Myth Assassin and Warlock.</p><p>To start, my Necro is an Euridite, which means I have Aura Sense so I did a test the other day and cast my Horde while my Aura Sense was on and I was shocked too see that there are actually priests in the horde, I never took the time to look previously to be honest.  They may not be functional healers (since they typically run up and melee the mob, and die) but they are a healer class. </p><p>One of the things I worked with my Raid Leader on was not looting trash from bodies in zones that have lots of trash to leave bodies (SOH for example).  In these cases I am usually able to max out my Horde with no problem, and in cases like this I am usually able to see a signifigant increase in my DPS, mostly from the Horde Mages since they DPS from a distance and can avoid AOEs better than the healers and melee.</p><p>Xil, I just wanted to say that I have read many of your posts, and I tend to agree with your point of view on things more often than not.  We may be a broken class, but it dosnt mean we cant still hit the top of the parse in any situation.</p><p>A.Z.</p></blockquote><p>Its great you found a good place to be, but for many this is not the case.  While I don't like sounding like a broken record, the people who are not as fortunate need some love too.  Now while you may be able to pull top 4 or whatever on the parse I would probably ponder that if you were in one of the top guilds on your server you wouldn't be in the top 10.  Now that's not to knock your skill or your knowledge of the class but it does say something with the company you keep.  Having been in a top end guild and now with a more casual type of raider I can see definite differences in play. </p><p>Being 200 below a myth assassin says that assassin either doesn't have the gear or doesn't play very well, assassins are regularly doing anywhere from 13-22k ZW, I seriously doubt necros can compete with that.  Its not just that our dps has not scaled correctly since the end of EoF, its that everytime we try to bring issues to bear there is ALWAYS somebody out there saying, dude suck it up your class is just fine.  I can safely say that I believe the itemization of RoK destroyed the summoner class. </p><p>From every class being able to take part in everything we brought to a raid force, manastones, feign death, coth, etc.  Its just disheartening to see they have not only not replaced our class with anything useful but seem ignorant or even happy to not pay us any attention.  Even A 'sorry guys we know we have some things to work thru be patient with us' would be enough to keep most of us happy.  Even sitting down with a few that play the game to pick our brains on what we think would make the game enjoyable again would be nice.</p><p>Now some will point out that they have hard times getting in groups and raids.  I can safely say that I'm a lucky one in both regards because I was easily invited in the raid guild I have now due to my past experience and gear.  It is also easier to get groups based on prior reputation or even current based on group performance.  But there is a vast majority that don't and are frankly quitting the game due to this.  Without being passionate for this game I would have just screw it long ago and given up on it.  However playing many of the MMOs out there, this game, despite its drawbacks, provides THE most compeling gameplay available.  Its not the mindlessness that is WoW, its not the PVP centered Warhammer, and its not the suck which is Age of Conan, it is a shame they did not promote it enough to actually establish a decent playerbase.</p><p>Back to your post a bit, the priest mobs in UH are not strictly priests, though they do look like them.  They are more like a hybrid between the fighters and mages, they do cast spells but they also run in to melee.  Would be nice to give them some more damage spells maybe a heal or two.</p><p>The class needs a lot more than a little TLC, it needs a lot.  Some suggestions have been put forth but until we get somebody to acknowledge things the class will continue to dwindle in numbers until there really is no point in fixing it anyways.</p>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>azraelteir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to say, personaly, I love being a Necromancer.  I know this isnt the popular opinion at the moment, but ohh well.  I have played a Necro for over 4 years now and I doubt I will ever give it up.  Now I may be one of the lucky few, but I was able to find a guild where I earned the position of main raiding necro.  I have taken the time to work with my Raid/Guild Leader on understanding how Necro DPS works, at least according to my play style, and because of this I am consistantly in the top 4 of the raidwide parse.</p><p>Dont get me wrong, I dont disagree that as a class we have our issues and need some TLC, but we are still functional, how can we not be when I am parsing less than 200dps below a Myth Assassin and Warlock.</p><p>To start, my Necro is an Euridite, which means I have Aura Sense so I did a test the other day and cast my Horde while my Aura Sense was on and I was shocked too see that there are actually priests in the horde, I never took the time to look previously to be honest.  They may not be functional healers (since they typically run up and melee the mob, and die) but they are a healer class. </p><p>One of the things I worked with my Raid Leader on was not looting trash from bodies in zones that have lots of trash to leave bodies (SOH for example).  In these cases I am usually able to max out my Horde with no problem, and in cases like this I am usually able to see a signifigant increase in my DPS, mostly from the Horde Mages since they DPS from a distance and can avoid AOEs better than the healers and melee.</p><p>Xil, I just wanted to say that I have read many of your posts, and I tend to agree with your point of view on things more often than not.  We may be a broken class, but it dosnt mean we cant still hit the top of the parse in any situation.</p><p>A.Z.</p></blockquote><p>Its great you found a good place to be, but for many this is not the case.  While I don't like sounding like a broken record, the people who are not as fortunate need some love too.  Now while you may be able to pull top 4 or whatever on the parse I would probably ponder that if you were in one of the top guilds on your server you wouldn't be in the top 10.  Now that's not to knock your skill or your knowledge of the class but it does say something with the company you keep.  Having been in a top end guild and now with a more casual type of raider I can see definite differences in play. </p><p>Being 200 below a myth assassin says that assassin either doesn't have the gear or doesn't play very well, assassins are regularly doing anywhere from 13-22k ZW, I seriously doubt necros can compete with that.  Its not just that our dps has not scaled correctly since the end of EoF, its that everytime we try to bring issues to bear there is ALWAYS somebody out there saying, dude suck it up your class is just fine.  I can safely say that I believe the itemization of RoK destroyed the summoner class. </p><p>From every class being able to take part in everything we brought to a raid force, manastones, feign death, coth, etc.  Its just disheartening to see they have not only not replaced our class with anything useful but seem ignorant or even happy to not pay us any attention.  Even A 'sorry guys we know we have some things to work thru be patient with us' would be enough to keep most of us happy.  Even sitting down with a few that play the game to pick our brains on what we think would make the game enjoyable again would be nice.</p><p>Now some will point out that they have hard times getting in groups and raids.  I can safely say that I'm a lucky one in both regards because I was easily invited in the raid guild I have now due to my past experience and gear.  It is also easier to get groups based on prior reputation or even current based on group performance.  But there is a vast majority that don't and are frankly quitting the game due to this.  Without being passionate for this game I would have just screw it long ago and given up on it.  However playing many of the MMOs out there, this game, despite its drawbacks, provides THE most compeling gameplay available.  Its not the mindlessness that is WoW, its not the PVP centered Warhammer, and its not the suck which is Age of Conan, it is a shame they did not promote it enough to actually establish a decent playerbase.</p><p>Back to your post a bit, the priest mobs in UH are not strictly priests, though they do look like them.  They are more like a hybrid between the fighters and mages, they do cast spells but they also run in to melee.  Would be nice to give them some more damage spells maybe a heal or two.</p><p>The class needs a lot more than a little TLC, it needs a lot.  Some suggestions have been put forth but until we get somebody to acknowledge things the class will continue to dwindle in numbers until there really is no point in fixing it anyways.</p></blockquote><p>Where are these Assassin doing 13k zonewides (let alone 20k zonewides) without avatar gear, perfect buffs, and a raid built to support only melee DPS?</p><p>And how are they managing to do this in zones where the majority of the fights require jousting, clicking or running through scripts?</p><p>I can see this in a group instance but on a raid?  Come now.  Unless every mob dies in 10 to 20 seconds and the Assassin has all their cooldowns up between mobs AND all the melee support cooldowns are back up between every mob that's just not going to happen even in the best gear the game has to offer.  And let's not get into Dispatched having to be up on the pull in order for an Assassin to even get up to peak DPS...</p><p>If you run 4 dirge 3 brigand and give the assassin a troubador and a dirge and the right healers and the best gear in the game and perfect buff timing.... I think yer still gonna have a hard time seeing a zone wide over 13 to 15k...  And that's only if the Assassin never has to joust or kill an add or flip a switch or pick up a doll or reset a curse or get stunned/stifled or get knocked back, or any of the other dozens of things that interupt DPS during highly scripted raid encounters...</p><p>And if the Mythical Assassin is doing 10.5k and I'm doing 10k without Lifeburn.... Where's this massive gap in DPS?  Oh that's right it's only there when everyone on the raid is in Avatar gear and the Necro has no class specific options that work so in turn don't scale up that extra 20%...</p><p>Scio you ever stop to look at where the actual disperity is?  Necro fall short at the low end at at the absolute highest level of progression ONLY.  And that happens for the same reason.  Pet's don't scale with gear.</p><p>And if you aren't stupid about putting the raid together you make sure the Necro get's in with the Warlock, Wizzy, and Troubador so the Necro can actually DPS.  Not stuff the Necro in the scout group with a dirge and say "have at it pal".</p><p>I can hit 10k without lifeburn on TSO raids with just an Illy, a Wizzy, and a Trouby for procs.  Add a Warlock there's another 1k, change the healer from fury to cleric there's another 1k...</p><p>Our high end isn't really an issue until we put on the broken gear and expect DPS from it...  The majority of our DPS comes from other class's procs anyway.</p><p>The DPS you and many others complain about means nothing.  10 to 15 second trash fights distort EVERYONE's zonewides.  So using them to base your DPS perspective is kinda stupid.</p><p>The Problem Necro has with DPS is Buff Dependance do to the fact that our Pets don't scale.  That's it.  Otherwise our DPS is fine.  The other issue is a lack of utility.  We bring nothing to the raid that other classes can't reproduce more effectively.</p><p>Lets not exagerate the issues anymore.  That isn't not helping either.</p><p>We need Utility (that is unique to summoner)We need Pets that scale with our gear (dumbfires included)We need Fyre to fix the [Removed for Content] summoner gear and add some real summoner gear to top teir progression...</p><p>That's it.</p>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>azraelteir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to say, personaly, I love being a Necromancer.  I know this isnt the popular opinion at the moment, but ohh well.  I have played a Necro for over 4 years now and I doubt I will ever give it up.  Now I may be one of the lucky few, but I was able to find a guild where I earned the position of main raiding necro.  I have taken the time to work with my Raid/Guild Leader on understanding how Necro DPS works, at least according to my play style, and because of this I am consistantly in the top 4 of the raidwide parse.</p><p>Dont get me wrong, I dont disagree that as a class we have our issues and need some TLC, but we are still functional, how can we not be when I am parsing less than 200dps below a Myth Assassin and Warlock.</p><p>To start, my Necro is an Euridite, which means I have Aura Sense so I did a test the other day and cast my Horde while my Aura Sense was on and I was shocked too see that there are actually priests in the horde, I never took the time to look previously to be honest.  They may not be functional healers (since they typically run up and melee the mob, and die) but they are a healer class. </p><p>One of the things I worked with my Raid Leader on was not looting trash from bodies in zones that have lots of trash to leave bodies (SOH for example).  In these cases I am usually able to max out my Horde with no problem, and in cases like this I am usually able to see a signifigant increase in my DPS, mostly from the Horde Mages since they DPS from a distance and can avoid AOEs better than the healers and melee.</p><p>Xil, I just wanted to say that I have read many of your posts, and I tend to agree with your point of view on things more often than not.  We may be a broken class, but it dosnt mean we cant still hit the top of the parse in any situation.</p><p>A.Z.</p></blockquote><p>Its great you found a good place to be, but for many this is not the case.  While I don't like sounding like a broken record, the people who are not as fortunate need some love too.  Now while you may be able to pull top 4 or whatever on the parse I would probably ponder that if you were in one of the top guilds on your server you wouldn't be in the top 10.  Now that's not to knock your skill or your knowledge of the class but it does say something with the company you keep.  Having been in a top end guild and now with a more casual type of raider I can see definite differences in play. </p><p>Being 200 below a myth assassin says that assassin either doesn't have the gear or doesn't play very well, assassins are regularly doing anywhere from 13-22k ZW, I seriously doubt necros can compete with that.  Its not just that our dps has not scaled correctly since the end of EoF, its that everytime we try to bring issues to bear there is ALWAYS somebody out there saying, dude suck it up your class is just fine.  I can safely say that I believe the itemization of RoK destroyed the summoner class. </p><p>From every class being able to take part in everything we brought to a raid force, manastones, feign death, coth, etc.  Its just disheartening to see they have not only not replaced our class with anything useful but seem ignorant or even happy to not pay us any attention.  Even A 'sorry guys we know we have some things to work thru be patient with us' would be enough to keep most of us happy.  Even sitting down with a few that play the game to pick our brains on what we think would make the game enjoyable again would be nice.</p><p>Now some will point out that they have hard times getting in groups and raids.  I can safely say that I'm a lucky one in both regards because I was easily invited in the raid guild I have now due to my past experience and gear.  It is also easier to get groups based on prior reputation or even current based on group performance.  But there is a vast majority that don't and are frankly quitting the game due to this.  Without being passionate for this game I would have just screw it long ago and given up on it.  However playing many of the MMOs out there, this game, despite its drawbacks, provides THE most compeling gameplay available.  Its not the mindlessness that is WoW, its not the PVP centered Warhammer, and its not the suck which is Age of Conan, it is a shame they did not promote it enough to actually establish a decent playerbase.</p><p>Back to your post a bit, the priest mobs in UH are not strictly priests, though they do look like them.  They are more like a hybrid between the fighters and mages, they do cast spells but they also run in to melee.  Would be nice to give them some more damage spells maybe a heal or two.</p><p>The class needs a lot more than a little TLC, it needs a lot.  Some suggestions have been put forth but until we get somebody to acknowledge things the class will continue to dwindle in numbers until there really is no point in fixing it anyways.</p></blockquote><p>Where are these Assassin doing 13k zonewides (let alone 20k zonewides) without avatar gear, perfect buffs, and a raid built to support only melee DPS?</p><p>And how are they managing to do this in zones where the majority of the fights require jousting, clicking or running through scripts?</p><p>I can see this in a group instance but on a raid?  Come now.  Unless every mob dies in 10 to 20 seconds and the Assassin has all their cooldowns up between mobs AND all the melee support cooldowns are back up between every mob that's just not going to happen even in the best gear the game has to offer.  And let's not get into Dispatched having to be up on the pull in order for an Assassin to even get up to peak DPS...</p><p>If you run 4 dirge 3 brigand and give the assassin a troubador and a dirge and the right healers and the best gear in the game and perfect buff timing.... I think yer still gonna have a hard time seeing a zone wide over 13 to 15k...  And that's only if the Assassin never has to joust or kill an add or flip a switch or pick up a doll or reset a curse or get stunned/stifled or get knocked back, or any of the other dozens of things that interupt DPS during highly scripted raid encounters...</p><p>And if the Mythical Assassin is doing 10.5k and I'm doing 10k without Lifeburn.... Where's this massive gap in DPS?  Oh that's right it's only there when everyone on the raid is in Avatar gear and the Necro has no class specific options that work so in turn don't scale up that extra 20%...</p><p>Scio you ever stop to look at where the actual disperity is?  Necro fall short at the low end at at the absolute highest level of progression ONLY.  And that happens for the same reason.  Pet's don't scale with gear.</p><p>And if you aren't stupid about putting the raid together you make sure the Necro get's in with the Warlock, Wizzy, and Troubador so the Necro can actually DPS.  Not stuff the Necro in the scout group with a dirge and say "have at it pal".</p><p>I can hit 10k without lifeburn on TSO raids with just an Illy, a Wizzy, and a Trouby for procs.  Add a Warlock there's another 1k, change the healer from fury to cleric there's another 1k...</p><p>Our high end isn't really an issue until we put on the broken gear and expect DPS from it...  The majority of our DPS comes from other class's procs anyway.</p><p>The DPS you and many others complain about means nothing.  10 to 15 second trash fights distort EVERYONE's zonewides.  So using them to base your DPS perspective is kinda stupid.</p><p>The Problem Necro has with DPS is Buff Dependance do to the fact that our Pets don't scale.  That's it.  Otherwise our DPS is fine.  The other issue is a lack of utility.  We bring nothing to the raid that other classes can't reproduce more effectively.</p><p>Lets not exagerate the issues anymore.  That isn't not helping either.</p><p>We need Utility (that is unique to summoner)We need Pets that scale with our gear (dumbfires included)We need Fyre to fix the [Removed for Content] summoner gear and add some real summoner gear to top teir progression...</p><p>That's it.</p></blockquote><p>sorry you don't need to specifically setup a raid for melee dps to have an assassin destroy the parse.  When I left my avatar killing guild in august the assassin was regularly doing ZWs in the 10-11k range, I have seen parses pushing that even higher.  When raid guilds are pushing the 150-175k dps mark yes the stuff is dying in 10-15 seconds, and no you don't need to wait for timers to be up, that is the single biggest issue people have had with assassin dps, its supposed to be intermittant burst, but they can sustain those numbers fight after fight.  Get a decent assassin or ask one, they are doing what I just said they do.</p><p>Stop advocating our dps is fine, your dribble is not helping the class.  There is much more than just one issue and its people like you advocating as such that is preventing any real discussion on it.</p><p>and, that's it.</p>

[Cly]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Where are these Assassin doing 13k zonewides (let alone 20k zonewides) without avatar gear, perfect buffs, and a raid built to support only melee DPS?</p></blockquote><p>Maybe you check some parse threads, for instance <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/assassins/29477-assassin-parse-thread-24.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/assassins/...-thread-24.html</a></p><p>You will not find a lot of parses under 10k.</p><p>Beside that wizzards can outdamage assassins (at least the wizzard in my guild does).</p>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Clywd wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Where are these Assassin doing 13k zonewides (let alone 20k zonewides) without avatar gear, perfect buffs, and a raid built to support only melee DPS?</p></blockquote><p>Maybe you check some parse threads, for instance <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/assassins/29477-assassin-parse-thread-24.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/assassins/...-thread-24.html</a></p><p>You will not find a lot of parses under 10k.</p><p>Beside that wizzards can outdamage assassins (at least the wizzard in my guild does).</p></blockquote><p>Yeah the best geared Assassin in the game push 15k zonewides on merged palace trash parses where the mobs die in 15 seconds.</p><p>I believe that pretty well proves the point for me =P</p><p>And Scio read the post all the way before you start attacking it that will help too.  In case this didn't dawn on you yet if our Pet's Scale'd properly our top end would come up some.  And our bottom end would come up ALOT.</p><p>Read completely, consider, then post.  It's easy.</p>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Clywd wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Where are these Assassin doing 13k zonewides (let alone 20k zonewides) without avatar gear, perfect buffs, and a raid built to support only melee DPS?</p></blockquote><p>Maybe you check some parse threads, for instance <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/assassins/29477-assassin-parse-thread-24.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/assassins/...-thread-24.html</a></p><p>You will not find a lot of parses under 10k.</p><p>Beside that wizzards can outdamage assassins (at least the wizzard in my guild does).</p></blockquote><p>Yeah the best geared Assassin in the game push 15k zonewides on merged palace trash parses where the mobs die in 15 seconds.</p><p>I believe that pretty well proves the point for me =P</p><p>And Scio read the post all the way before you start attacking it that will help too.  In case this didn't dawn on you yet if our Pet's Scale'd properly our top end would come up some.  And our bottom end would come up ALOT.</p><p>Read completely, consider, then post.  It's easy.</p></blockquote><p>oh we read pretty well I think its just that you don't really understand the game, and you're the biggest hypocrit on these boards.</p><p>First you come off oh, we're fine, then the next post its oh we gotta fix this gotta fix that.</p><p>10-15 sec parses are not distorted if they're NORMAL!!  You distort and ignore the things that don't ever ever prove your points.  Avatar geared raid guilds are doing 10-15 sec trash fights all the time.  They aren't going to bring a necro or conjy along just for named fights, if they can't compete in the 'meat' of the zone why bring them at all?</p><p>Pet scaling is not the only issue with the class, you don't ever read anything that the other 99% of the class agrees is the problem, you create more problems by advocating the opposite.  Trust me I've been doing this a heck of lot longer than you, I have seen every aspect of this game and feel I can comment on all of it because of that.  Pet scaling isn't what will fix the class, if anything pet AI needs looking at more than spell scaling.  There are more broken mechanics with pet spells than scaling.  Shared stats would solve a lot of the problems, but according to you that's not a priority or should be.  I can hit 10k on fights too, but you don't really raid with high end assassins or wizards or you'd be so far behind the curve its not even funny.  Completely stacked groups don't prove anything other than our complete dependacy on other classes, a LOT of other classes.</p><p>If a group was made up of a wiz, warlock, necro, fury, troub, illy...where do you think the best buffs would go?  TC would go on the wizard, upbeat would go on the warlock and the necro would be left in the dust by both of those classes on the parse, why?  Because there is no real reason to actually even bring that necro on the raid.  In fact its probably a better idea to bring a conjy at least they're good on AE fights.  There is no low end fall off, the problem is because pets don't crit enough, if the pets crit'd as much as other spellcasters the min damage range would go way up just based on how crits work. </p><p>Also with the new types of stats being introduced in this expansion, summoners will fall even farther behind than they were at the end of RoK, crit bonus doesn't exist on any of the pet buffs, and from what I've seen there isn't much in the crit bonus department AND pet bonus gear at all.  Itemization is NOT the way to fix the biggest issue.</p><p>So until you really understand the game mechanics, and it obvious you don't really have any clue, stop posting like you do.</p>

[TumpieBrell]

<p>Xil your informational posts are sometimes helpful, thank you for that.</p><p>But please stop posting saying Necro's are fine, and only need a tiny tweak.</p><p>YOU can top parses, congratulations. I can too, when the stars allign, but not ZW. And raids often don't put Necro's in the mage dps group, if they take them at all, because it's easier to make other classes to just as much dps. Plus just the stygma that comes along with being a Necro (because of the classes problems!). It shouldn't be that difficult, but it is.</p><p>With 1 particular group set up Necro's are good, sure. But how often can the average Necro attain that set up the way the class is now? Not easily. Not to mention the non raiding content. No other class needs 4 other specific classes to do decent numbers. That's called broken.</p><p>And there's more wrong with the necro than parse position - you seem to love posting how much your ZW is. Lets massage your ego for a bit and say you're the best Necro in the game, you win. Now stop posting saying all Necro's are fine, because you're screwing everyone else. </p>

[DngrMou]

<p><cite>Aurelis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> I'd personally love to see more undead themes to necromancers. Rats? Imps? Spider drachnid dudes? I completely adore our stun being skeletal hands and all. It's kind of like we're half undead masters, half things-that-are-considered-kind-of-evil-or-yucky masters. I want to "revive" a mob corpse as a ghost and send it after someone as a temp. pet... but that's a stretch of a wish, I know. P:</p></blockquote><p>That'd be kind of fun with fallen comrades too....sort of a 'temporary' in combat rez.  I want the whole corpse though, not just the ghost.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>azraelteir wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to say, personaly, I love being a Necromancer.  I know this isnt the popular opinion at the moment, but ohh well.  I have played a Necro for over 4 years now and I doubt I will ever give it up.  Now I may be one of the lucky few, but I was able to find a guild where I earned the position of main raiding necro.  I have taken the time to work with my Raid/Guild Leader on understanding how Necro DPS works, at least according to my play style, and because of this I am consistantly in the top 4 of the raidwide parse.</p><p>Dont get me wrong, I dont disagree that as a class we have our issues and need some TLC, but we are still functional, how can we not be when I am parsing less than 200dps below a Myth Assassin and Warlock.</p><p>To start, my Necro is an Euridite, which means I have Aura Sense so I did a test the other day and cast my Horde while my Aura Sense was on and I was shocked too see that there are actually priests in the horde, I never took the time to look previously to be honest.  They may not be functional healers (since they typically run up and melee the mob, and die) but they are a healer class. </p><p>One of the things I worked with my Raid Leader on was not looting trash from bodies in zones that have lots of trash to leave bodies (SOH for example).  In these cases I am usually able to max out my Horde with no problem, and in cases like this I am usually able to see a signifigant increase in my DPS, mostly from the Horde Mages since they DPS from a distance and can avoid AOEs better than the healers and melee.</p><p>Xil, I just wanted to say that I have read many of your posts, and I tend to agree with your point of view on things more often than not.  We may be a broken class, but it dosnt mean we cant still hit the top of the parse in any situation.</p><p>A.Z.</p></blockquote><p>the first few weeks of ROK was an abismal time for necro and i know Xil did not raid then and im pretty sure you din't either.   from those times is where the current summoner stigma stem down from, now summoner are doing better but still need a dps boost and some utillity.    </p><p> PS.  Xil for the most part exagerates alot, all the advice he gives is all ready given in the forums all you have to do is /serch.      yes some necro's have manged to stay competative (me being one of them)  but that does not mean that the class isin't in need of a revamp to acomadate for the new mechanics introduced in ROK.</p>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Clywd wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Where are these Assassin doing 13k zonewides (let alone 20k zonewides) without avatar gear, perfect buffs, and a raid built to support only melee DPS?</p></blockquote><p>Maybe you check some parse threads, for instance <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/assassins/29477-assassin-parse-thread-24.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/assassins/...-thread-24.html</a></p><p>You will not find a lot of parses under 10k.</p><p>Beside that wizzards can outdamage assassins (at least the wizzard in my guild does).</p></blockquote><p>Yeah the best geared Assassin in the game push 15k zonewides on merged palace trash parses where the mobs die in 15 seconds.</p><p>I believe that pretty well proves the point for me =P</p><p>And Scio read the post all the way before you start attacking it that will help too.  In case this didn't dawn on you yet if our Pet's Scale'd properly our top end would come up some.  And our bottom end would come up ALOT.</p><p>Read completely, consider, then post.  It's easy.</p></blockquote><p>oh we read pretty well I think its just that you don't really understand the game, and you're the biggest hypocrit on these boards.</p><p>First you come off oh, we're fine, then the next post its oh we gotta fix this gotta fix that.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Actually this comes from not reading the posts completely and/or understanding the difference between low end and high end.  I've always advocated the same thing.  Necro DPS is outstanding high end "<strong><span style="font-size: medium;">IF AND ONLY IF</span></strong>" they are supported by the appropriate classes.  I made that bigger for you so you can see it.</span></p><p>10-15 sec parses are not distorted if they're NORMAL!!  You distort and ignore the things that don't ever ever prove your points.  Avatar geared raid guilds are doing 10-15 sec trash fights all the time.  They aren't going to bring a necro or conjy along just for named fights, if they can't compete in the 'meat' of the zone why bring them at all?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Actually a 10-15 second trash parse allows only large burst damage classes to parse well.  It skews the DPS up for them and down for all other classes because the parse only reflects two or 3 of their largest hits.  And these players represent about 0.002% of the total player population.  So to say a 10-15 second parse on high end raid content is normal is like saying Rain in the Sahara Desert is common.  Sure it happens.  But not very often.</span></p><p>Pet scaling is not the only issue with the class, you don't ever read anything that the other 99% of the class agrees is the problem, you create more problems by advocating the opposite.  Trust me I've been doing this a heck of lot longer than you, I have seen every aspect of this game and feel I can comment on all of it because of that.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">And look where it's got us?  Seems you missed the mark somewhere.  No offense you've been here a long time, but you really don't seem to have made any positive difference.  Up until I showed up there wasn't even a sticky for Necro conserns posted here.  Just flame thread after flame thread miles deep.</span></p><p>Pet scaling isn't what will fix the class, if anything pet AI needs looking at more than spell scaling.  There are more broken mechanics with pet spells than scaling.  Shared stats would solve a lot of the problems, but according to you that's not a priority or should be.  I can hit 10k on fights too, but you don't really raid with high end assassins or wizards or you'd be so far behind the curve its not even funny.  Completely stacked groups don't prove anything other than our complete dependacy on other classes, a LOT of other classes.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I believe I've mentioned that several dozen times now, Summoner being completely dependant on other classes to DPS well seems to be a good part of many of my posts...  To lessen Necro dependance on other classes the suggestions were specifically to allow pets to scale with gear(summoner stats not gear with pet stats on it) and change Lifeburn so it only requires a single bar of health.  It's in the sticky read up, it's all there.  There are many other suggestions that would help the Necro short and long game as well posted in the sticky as well.</span></p><p>If a group was made up of a wiz, warlock, necro, fury, troub, illy...where do you think the best buffs would go?  TC would go on the wizard, upbeat would go on the warlock and the necro would be left in the dust by both of those classes on the parse, why?  Because there is no real reason to actually even bring that necro on the raid.  In fact its probably a better idea to bring a conjy at least they're good on AE fights.  There is no low end fall off, the problem is because pets don't crit enough, if the pets crit'd as much as other spellcasters the min damage range would go way up just based on how crits work.   <span style="color: #ff0000;">Well you could put the large main TC on the Wizard and the troub TC on the Warlock and you'd get a zone wide increase from both of them surely.  However you move that Troub TC to the Necro and you get almost double the increase from the Necro you do from the Warlock and increase the total zonewide DPS even further.  Sorc's get about 30% of the benefit from procs like PoM and PoTM and Disonant Note that Necro do.  Necro can take those Procs and Make them into the majority of their DPS.  Which good Necro do.  They just have to learn how to do it.  I mean I'm geared pretty well but a far cry from top teir.  The Main benefit from TC as you well know is the ability to shift out casting chain from damage total to hit count and also allow our Lifeburn to cast quicker (reduces the loss on cast) and refresh sooner (increases zonewide DPS even further).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And I'm hitting 10k on orange con raid mobs without Lifeburn.  And I'm even able to put that same DPS into scripted Named where the Assassin rarely can.  I think 10k is fine considering out pets are broken... don't you?  If they fix our pets that number should come up some.  But where the real benefit will be is our low end without buffs.  Our DPS without buffs would increase quite a substantial amount if our pet's scaled with our gear and stats like they should.</span></p><p>Also with the new types of stats being introduced in this expansion, summoners will fall even farther behind than they were at the end of RoK, crit bonus doesn't exist on any of the pet buffs, and from what I've seen there isn't much in the crit bonus department AND pet bonus gear at all.  Itemization is NOT the way to fix the biggest issue.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">For now we can work around this by using Blood Pact however.  And it is true itemization shouldn't be used to fix a class but itemization is a part of the balance that is missing none the less.  The truth of the matter is we need a modification to base mechanics "AND" itemization that is appropriate to the type of class we are intended to be.  You can't really seperate them at this point.</span></p><p>So until you really understand the game mechanics, and it obvious you don't really have any clue, stop posting like you do.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I think being a Necro that pushes 10k on orange con raid trash in <strong>mid level</strong> raid gear without TC, Cleric, or Warlock in the group I've pretty well figured out Necro and the mechanics involved in making them perform at their absolute highest potential.  But who knows maybe you can teach me something.  Can you teach me something Sabu?</span></p></blockquote>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>oh we read pretty well I think its just that you don't really understand the game, and you're the biggest hypocrit on these boards.</p><p>First you come off oh, we're fine, then the next post its oh we gotta fix this gotta fix that.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Actually this comes from not reading the posts completely and/or understanding the difference between low end and high end.  I've always advocated the same thing.  Necro DPS is outstanding high end "<strong><span style="font-size: medium;">IF AND ONLY IF</span></strong>" they are supported by the appropriate classes.  I made that bigger for you so you can see it.</span></p><p>10-15 sec parses are not distorted if they're NORMAL!!  You distort and ignore the things that don't ever ever prove your points.  Avatar geared raid guilds are doing 10-15 sec trash fights all the time.  They aren't going to bring a necro or conjy along just for named fights, if they can't compete in the 'meat' of the zone why bring them at all?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Actually a 10-15 second trash parse allows only large burst damage classes to parse well.  It skews the DPS up for them and down for all other classes because the parse only reflects two or 3 of their largest hits.  And these players represent about 0.002% of the total player population.  So to say a 10-15 second parse on high end raid content is normal is like saying Rain in the Sahara Desert is common.  Sure it happens.  But not very often.</span></p><p>Pet scaling is not the only issue with the class, you don't ever read anything that the other 99% of the class agrees is the problem, you create more problems by advocating the opposite.  Trust me I've been doing this a heck of lot longer than you, I have seen every aspect of this game and feel I can comment on all of it because of that.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">And look where it's got us?  Seems you missed the mark somewhere.  No offense you've been here a long time, but you really don't seem to have made any positive difference.  Up until I showed up there wasn't even a sticky for Necro conserns posted here.  Just flame thread after flame thread miles deep.</span></p><p>Pet scaling isn't what will fix the class, if anything pet AI needs looking at more than spell scaling.  There are more broken mechanics with pet spells than scaling.  Shared stats would solve a lot of the problems, but according to you that's not a priority or should be.  I can hit 10k on fights too, but you don't really raid with high end assassins or wizards or you'd be so far behind the curve its not even funny.  Completely stacked groups don't prove anything other than our complete dependacy on other classes, a LOT of other classes.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I believe I've mentioned that several dozen times now, Summoner being completely dependant on other classes to DPS well seems to be a good part of many of my posts...  To lessen Necro dependance on other classes the suggestions were specifically to allow pets to scale with gear(summoner stats not gear with pet stats on it) and change Lifeburn so it only requires a single bar of health.  It's in the sticky read up, it's all there.  There are many other suggestions that would help the Necro short and long game as well posted in the sticky as well.</span></p><p>If a group was made up of a wiz, warlock, necro, fury, troub, illy...where do you think the best buffs would go?  TC would go on the wizard, upbeat would go on the warlock and the necro would be left in the dust by both of those classes on the parse, why?  Because there is no real reason to actually even bring that necro on the raid.  In fact its probably a better idea to bring a conjy at least they're good on AE fights.  There is no low end fall off, the problem is because pets don't crit enough, if the pets crit'd as much as other spellcasters the min damage range would go way up just based on how crits work.   <span style="color: #ff0000;">Well you could put the large main TC on the Wizard and the troub TC on the Warlock and you'd get a zone wide increase from both of them surely.  However you move that Troub TC to the Necro and you get almost double the increase from the Necro you do from the Warlock and increase the total zonewide DPS even further.  Sorc's get about 30% of the benefit from procs like PoM and PoTM and Disonant Note that Necro do.  Necro can take those Procs and Make them into the majority of their DPS.  Which good Necro do.  They just have to learn how to do it.  I mean I'm geared pretty well but a far cry from top teir.  The Main benefit from TC as you well know is the ability to shift out casting chain from damage total to hit count and also allow our Lifeburn to cast quicker (reduces the loss on cast) and refresh sooner (increases zonewide DPS even further).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And I'm hitting 10k on orange con raid mobs without Lifeburn.  And I'm even able to put that same DPS into scripted Named where the Assassin rarely can.  I think 10k is fine considering out pets are broken... don't you?  If they fix our pets that number should come up some.  But where the real benefit will be is our low end without buffs.  Our DPS without buffs would increase quite a substantial amount if our pet's scaled with our gear and stats like they should.</span></p><p>Also with the new types of stats being introduced in this expansion, summoners will fall even farther behind than they were at the end of RoK, crit bonus doesn't exist on any of the pet buffs, and from what I've seen there isn't much in the crit bonus department AND pet bonus gear at all.  Itemization is NOT the way to fix the biggest issue.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">For now we can work around this by using Blood Pact however.  And it is true itemization shouldn't be used to fix a class but itemization is a part of the balance that is missing none the less.  The truth of the matter is we need a modification to base mechanics "AND" itemization that is appropriate to the type of class we are intended to be.  You can't really seperate them at this point.</span></p><p>So until you really understand the game mechanics, and it obvious you don't really have any clue, stop posting like you do.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I think being a Necro that pushes 10k on orange con raid trash in <strong>mid level</strong> raid gear without TC, Cleric, or Warlock in the group I've pretty well figured out Necro and the mechanics involved in making them perform at their absolute highest potential.  But who knows maybe you can teach me something.  Can you teach me something Sabu?</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Let's see, how many things are wrong with what you just posted.  Let's count the ways.  1 a warlock with upbeat tempo will gain more dps from it than any necro would.  Statement and Fact!  Itemization will never fix a class, EVER.  Statement and Fact!  We are not missing items we are missing core mechanics, itemization can be gained from whatever else every other mage uses.</p><p>I also like the again mystical inference to the 10k base parses.  Yay.  Shall we go thru again that if you don't post anything like that its just hearsay?  Or is it from the fact that you've somehow convinced whoever you raid with to completely stack the group in your favor, therefore skewing any relevant information?  Do you know there was once another person who did that and claimed to be the best ever, when in fact they were just run of the mill normal just like all the other top parsers.</p><p>And you're right I have never had anything stickied up here cause I don't parade across these forums kissing up to the developers.  Any game dev who can't or won't take criticism is a bad developer.  I provide feedback be it positive or negative but I don't color it so it makes them feel all fuzzy inside, if somebody designs or creates something that is god awful horrible, I'm not gonna say gee, nice try but maybe go here.   I'll teach you all day long but you don't ever seem to listen.  People have been trying to update you on game mechanics ever since you started posting that crap about the robe.  You really don't understand the basis of how things work before suggesting outlandish things or even saying we're fine. </p><p>I've known the base class issues since RoK pretty much destroyed the class.  You can listen or you can ignore me, but I will not let you keep posting crap that is mostly incorrect or not even going to fix the issues at hand.  Bigron has tried correcting you, as have others.  And all you come back with saying is chilidish backtalk about how they just want to win at the internetz, yay!  Sorry, I'm not like that in real person and I certainly don't pretend to be that here.  You want to know how things work, join the worldwide channel and actually talk to the real people playing the classes.  Blackburrow.summoner. </p>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>oh we read pretty well I think its just that you don't really understand the game, and you're the biggest hypocrit on these boards.</p><p>First you come off oh, we're fine, then the next post its oh we gotta fix this gotta fix that.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Actually this comes from not reading the posts completely and/or understanding the difference between low end and high end.  I've always advocated the same thing.  Necro DPS is outstanding high end "<strong><span style="font-size: medium;">IF AND ONLY IF</span></strong>" they are supported by the appropriate classes.  I made that bigger for you so you can see it.</span></p><p>10-15 sec parses are not distorted if they're NORMAL!!  You distort and ignore the things that don't ever ever prove your points.  Avatar geared raid guilds are doing 10-15 sec trash fights all the time.  They aren't going to bring a necro or conjy along just for named fights, if they can't compete in the 'meat' of the zone why bring them at all?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Actually a 10-15 second trash parse allows only large burst damage classes to parse well.  It skews the DPS up for them and down for all other classes because the parse only reflects two or 3 of their largest hits.  And these players represent about 0.002% of the total player population.  So to say a 10-15 second parse on high end raid content is normal is like saying Rain in the Sahara Desert is common.  Sure it happens.  But not very often.</span></p><p>Pet scaling is not the only issue with the class, you don't ever read anything that the other 99% of the class agrees is the problem, you create more problems by advocating the opposite.  Trust me I've been doing this a heck of lot longer than you, I have seen every aspect of this game and feel I can comment on all of it because of that.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">And look where it's got us?  Seems you missed the mark somewhere.  No offense you've been here a long time, but you really don't seem to have made any positive difference.  Up until I showed up there wasn't even a sticky for Necro conserns posted here.  Just flame thread after flame thread miles deep.</span></p><p>Pet scaling isn't what will fix the class, if anything pet AI needs looking at more than spell scaling.  There are more broken mechanics with pet spells than scaling.  Shared stats would solve a lot of the problems, but according to you that's not a priority or should be.  I can hit 10k on fights too, but you don't really raid with high end assassins or wizards or you'd be so far behind the curve its not even funny.  Completely stacked groups don't prove anything other than our complete dependacy on other classes, a LOT of other classes.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I believe I've mentioned that several dozen times now, Summoner being completely dependant on other classes to DPS well seems to be a good part of many of my posts...  To lessen Necro dependance on other classes the suggestions were specifically to allow pets to scale with gear(summoner stats not gear with pet stats on it) and change Lifeburn so it only requires a single bar of health.  It's in the sticky read up, it's all there.  There are many other suggestions that would help the Necro short and long game as well posted in the sticky as well.</span></p><p>If a group was made up of a wiz, warlock, necro, fury, troub, illy...where do you think the best buffs would go?  TC would go on the wizard, upbeat would go on the warlock and the necro would be left in the dust by both of those classes on the parse, why?  Because there is no real reason to actually even bring that necro on the raid.  In fact its probably a better idea to bring a conjy at least they're good on AE fights.  There is no low end fall off, the problem is because pets don't crit enough, if the pets crit'd as much as other spellcasters the min damage range would go way up just based on how crits work.   <span style="color: #ff0000;">Well you could put the large main TC on the Wizard and the troub TC on the Warlock and you'd get a zone wide increase from both of them surely.  However you move that Troub TC to the Necro and you get almost double the increase from the Necro you do from the Warlock and increase the total zonewide DPS even further.  Sorc's get about 30% of the benefit from procs like PoM and PoTM and Disonant Note that Necro do.  Necro can take those Procs and Make them into the majority of their DPS.  Which good Necro do.  They just have to learn how to do it.  I mean I'm geared pretty well but a far cry from top teir.  The Main benefit from TC as you well know is the ability to shift out casting chain from damage total to hit count and also allow our Lifeburn to cast quicker (reduces the loss on cast) and refresh sooner (increases zonewide DPS even further).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And I'm hitting 10k on orange con raid mobs without Lifeburn.  And I'm even able to put that same DPS into scripted Named where the Assassin rarely can.  I think 10k is fine considering out pets are broken... don't you?  If they fix our pets that number should come up some.  But where the real benefit will be is our low end without buffs.  Our DPS without buffs would increase quite a substantial amount if our pet's scaled with our gear and stats like they should.</span></p><p>Also with the new types of stats being introduced in this expansion, summoners will fall even farther behind than they were at the end of RoK, crit bonus doesn't exist on any of the pet buffs, and from what I've seen there isn't much in the crit bonus department AND pet bonus gear at all.  Itemization is NOT the way to fix the biggest issue.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">For now we can work around this by using Blood Pact however.  And it is true itemization shouldn't be used to fix a class but itemization is a part of the balance that is missing none the less.  The truth of the matter is we need a modification to base mechanics "AND" itemization that is appropriate to the type of class we are intended to be.  You can't really seperate them at this point.</span></p><p>So until you really understand the game mechanics, and it obvious you don't really have any clue, stop posting like you do.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I think being a Necro that pushes 10k on orange con raid trash in <strong>mid level</strong> raid gear without TC, Cleric, or Warlock in the group I've pretty well figured out Necro and the mechanics involved in making them perform at their absolute highest potential.  But who knows maybe you can teach me something.  Can you teach me something Sabu?</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Let's see, how many things are wrong with what you just posted.  Let's count the ways.  1 a warlock with upbeat tempo will gain more dps from it than any necro would.  Statement and Fact! <span style="color: #ff0000;">Well that kinda depends on how many procs the Necro has to work with.  If you run two troub on the raid and have 60 seconds of PoTM and you have a Warlock, Wiz, Illy, Troub, Necro in the mage group the proc count a Necro can produce with TC is pretty substantial.  Played well it will out weigh the hard DPS increase a Warlock will get from TC and even the Wizard.  The more procs you have to work with the higher Necro DPS goes.  And Necro can tripple the Proc amount of the wizard and the warlock so that DPS will edge out the DPS gained by putting TC on the Warlock.  When you got 5 Procs that all depend on hit count and the Necro is getting 50 hard hits where the Sorc only gets 15 to 20 that's a pretty signifigant amount of DPS.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Unless of course you are basing this on a 10 second fight where a Warlock or a Wizard are putting up 3 total spells for max damage instead of 2 without TC.  Then I can see the increase but that is not the case for the extremely vast majority of raids so it's kinda silly to use that comparison as a basis for DPS analysis.  I mean any Assassin can Execute a badger in KP and hit 30k DPS.  Does it mean Assassin is a 30k DPS class?  No it means the content was trivial...  You have to try and remember that most(and I do mean most in the strongest sense of the term) players are not geared to a point where orange con raid trash is completely trivial.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I mean honestly if trash takes 15 seconds to kill that pretty well means it's trivial content for your raid.  And trivial content isn't an accurate representation of anyone's DPS.  Right?</span></p><p> Itemization will never fix a class, EVER.  Statement and Fact!  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I believe I mentioned that several times...</span></p><p>We are not missing items we are missing core mechanics, itemization can be gained from whatever else every other mage uses.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Well to a point yes.  However our base mechanics are built on logetivity as well so most of the mage gear that imporves burst damage is also lost on the majority of our DPS because it depends on stacking and time to ramp up.  So yes there are Core issues, but there are also strong itemization issues even without adding the pet gear into the picture.  Necro is a DoT class.  Not a nuke class.  Unless you want to replace all DoT's with Nukes yer not gonna get the same benefit from mage gear that sorc and chanter get either.</span></p><p>I also like the again mystical inference to the 10k base parses.  Yay.  Shall we go thru again that if you don't post anything like that its just hearsay?  Or is it from the fact that you've somehow convinced whoever you raid with to completely stack the group in your favor, therefore skewing any relevant information?  Do you know there was once another person who did that and claimed to be the best ever, when in fact they were just run of the mill normal just like all the other top parsers.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Best ever is a little stretch.  I don't have the gear yet to completely decimate any and all pre-concieved notions of Necro DPS, but I'm working on it...  And 10k really isn't much of a stretch.  Once you take the pet gear off and go back to mage gear and base damage increases and hit 100% spell crits with the new bonuses from troubador and other classes yer Drain Life hits for 8k and yer soul rot and bloodcoil stack together for about 2500 to 3k DPS by themselves.  We have a bit of damage potential aside from Lifeburn it just doesn't happen in 10 second fights.  I showed you all my DPS graph.  It takes about 10 seconds to ramp up to 10k DPS and level off without Lifeburn.  And at that point I can pretty well sustain it and even spike up higher with Lifeburn and Undead Horde.</span></p><p>And you're right I have never had anything stickied up here cause I don't parade across these forums kissing up to the developers.  Any game dev who can't or won't take criticism is a bad developer.  I provide feedback be it positive or negative but I don't color it so it makes them feel all fuzzy inside, if somebody designs or creates something that is god awful horrible, I'm not gonna say gee, nice try but maybe go here.   I'll teach you all day long but you don't ever seem to listen.  People have been trying to update you on game mechanics ever since you started posting that crap about the robe.  You really don't understand the basis of how things work before suggesting outlandish things or even saying we're fine.   <span style="color: #ff0000;">I've yet to read a single post from you that says anything other than "You are wrong because I've been here longer".  And trash talking the people who can actually fix the class issues you see is not exactly helpful.  It's pretty hard to acknowlege you point of view when you don't seem to have one...</span></p><p>I've known the base class issues since RoK pretty much destroyed the class.  You can listen or you can ignore me, but I will not let you keep posting crap that is mostly incorrect or not even going to fix the issues at hand.  Bigron has tried correcting you, as have others.  And all you come back with saying is chilidish backtalk about how they just want to win at the internetz, yay!  Sorry, I'm not like that in real person and I certainly don't pretend to be that here.  You want to know how things work, join the worldwide channel and actually talk to the real people playing the classes.  Blackburrow.summoner.   <span style="color: #ff0000;">Join another chat channel to read the same, you are wrong becaue the car is green argument?  And backtalk?  Who exactly do you think you are?  Dad is that you?  You and Bigron have offerd up nothing but flaming both of me and the developers.  "You are wrong" is not feedback.  "Fix it cause it's broken" is not constructive.  If you have suggestions or solutions or even constructive analysis of the problems you see post it.  Learn me with yer infinite experience and wisdom.  Hell I even put up that solutions thread and the first thing you did was red letter the whole thing with "No, Wrong, Stupid"  I mean seriously.  Put somethin on the table.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The core mechanics are what need fixing right?  What about them?  What leads you to believe that?  What evidence do you have to support it? What are the circumstances surrounding this evidence?  Does it represent the greater majority or Necro?  Or does it represent a specific set of circumstances?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Paint me a picture.  And make it clear.  Without worrying about what certain parts of it might imply one way or another.  Then the discussion can happen.  Otherwise yer just flaming for the sake of argument.  And that also isn't helping anyone.</span></p></blockquote>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Let's see, how many things are wrong with what you just posted.  Let's count the ways.  1 a warlock with upbeat tempo will gain more dps from it than any necro would.  Statement and Fact! <span style="color: #ff0000;">Well that kinda depends on how many procs the Necro has to work with.  If you run two troub on the raid and have 60 seconds of PoTM and you have a Warlock, Wiz, Illy, Troub, Necro in the mage group the proc count a Necro can produce with TC is pretty substantial.  Played well it will out weigh the hard DPS increase a Warlock will get from TC and even the Wizard.  The more procs you have to work with the higher Necro DPS goes.  And Necro can tripple the Proc amount of the wizard and the warlock so that DPS will edge out the DPS gained by putting TC on the Warlock.  When you got 5 Procs that all depend on hit count and the Necro is getting 50 hard hits where the Sorc only gets 15 to 20 that's a pretty signifigant amount of DPS.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Unless of course you are basing this on a 10 second fight where a Warlock or a Wizard are putting up 3 total spells for max damage instead of 2 without TC.  Then I can see the increase but that is not the case for the extremely vast majority of raids so it's kinda silly to use that comparison as a basis for DPS analysis.  I mean any Assassin can Execute a badger in KP and hit 30k DPS.  Does it mean Assassin is a 30k DPS class?  No it means the content was trivial...  You have to try and remember that most(and I do mean most in the strongest sense of the term) players are not geared to a point where orange con raid trash is completely trivial.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I mean honestly if trash takes 15 seconds to kill that pretty well means it's trivial content for your raid.  And trivial content isn't an accurate representation of anyone's DPS.  Right?</span></p><p> Itemization will never fix a class, EVER.  Statement and Fact!  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I believe I mentioned that several times...</span></p><p>We are not missing items we are missing core mechanics, itemization can be gained from whatever else every other mage uses.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Well to a point yes.  However our base mechanics are built on logetivity as well so most of the mage gear that imporves burst damage is also lost on the majority of our DPS because it depends on stacking and time to ramp up.  So yes there are Core issues, but there are also strong itemization issues even without adding the pet gear into the picture.  Necro is a DoT class.  Not a nuke class.  Unless you want to replace all DoT's with Nukes yer not gonna get the same benefit from mage gear that sorc and chanter get either.</span></p><p>I also like the again mystical inference to the 10k base parses.  Yay.  Shall we go thru again that if you don't post anything like that its just hearsay?  Or is it from the fact that you've somehow convinced whoever you raid with to completely stack the group in your favor, therefore skewing any relevant information?  Do you know there was once another person who did that and claimed to be the best ever, when in fact they were just run of the mill normal just like all the other top parsers.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Best ever is a little stretch.  I don't have the gear yet to completely decimate any and all pre-concieved notions of Necro DPS, but I'm working on it...  And 10k really isn't much of a stretch.  Once you take the pet gear off and go back to mage gear and base damage increases and hit 100% spell crits with the new bonuses from troubador and other classes yer Drain Life hits for 8k and yer soul rot and bloodcoil stack together for about 2500 to 3k DPS by themselves.  We have a bit of damage potential aside from Lifeburn it just doesn't happen in 10 second fights.  I showed you all my DPS graph.  It takes about 10 seconds to ramp up to 10k DPS and level off without Lifeburn.  And at that point I can pretty well sustain it and even spike up higher with Lifeburn and Undead Horde.</span></p><p>And you're right I have never had anything stickied up here cause I don't parade across these forums kissing up to the developers.  Any game dev who can't or won't take criticism is a bad developer.  I provide feedback be it positive or negative but I don't color it so it makes them feel all fuzzy inside, if somebody designs or creates something that is god awful horrible, I'm not gonna say gee, nice try but maybe go here.   I'll teach you all day long but you don't ever seem to listen.  People have been trying to update you on game mechanics ever since you started posting that crap about the robe.  You really don't understand the basis of how things work before suggesting outlandish things or even saying we're fine.   <span style="color: #ff0000;">I've yet to read a single post from you that says anything other than "You are wrong because I've been here longer".  And trash talking the people who can actually fix the class issues you see is not exactly helpful.  It's pretty hard to acknowlege you point of view when you don't seem to have one...</span></p><p>I've known the base class issues since RoK pretty much destroyed the class.  You can listen or you can ignore me, but I will not let you keep posting crap that is mostly incorrect or not even going to fix the issues at hand.  Bigron has tried correcting you, as have others.  And all you come back with saying is chilidish backtalk about how they just want to win at the internetz, yay!  Sorry, I'm not like that in real person and I certainly don't pretend to be that here.  You want to know how things work, join the worldwide channel and actually talk to the real people playing the classes.  Blackburrow.summoner.   <span style="color: #ff0000;">Join another chat channel to read the same, you are wrong becaue the car is green argument?  And backtalk?  Who exactly do you think you are?  Dad is that you?  You and Bigron have offerd up nothing but flaming both of me and the developers.  "You are wrong" is not feedback.  "Fix it cause it's broken" is not constructive.  If you have suggestions or solutions or even constructive analysis of the problems you see post it.  Learn me with yer infinite experience and wisdom.  Hell I even put up that solutions thread and the first thing you did was red letter the whole thing with "No, Wrong, Stupid"  I mean seriously.  Put somethin on the table.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The core mechanics are what need fixing right?  What about them?  What leads you to believe that?  What evidence do you have to support it? What are the circumstances surrounding this evidence?  Does it represent the greater majority or Necro?  Or does it represent a specific set of circumstances?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Paint me a picture.  And make it clear.  Without worrying about what certain parts of it might imply one way or another.  Then the discussion can happen.  Otherwise yer just flaming for the sake of argument.  And that also isn't helping anyone.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Ok let's teach you something new this week about the game.  You like the words hit count.  You do realize that producing even 300% more hits that a wizard will still not reduce the fact they and the raid get more from TC right?  you can hit all you want for 700 a pop on diss note or potm or pom and still even approach the dps increase a wiz gets with TC.  its just a fact.  I guess maybe not in your world though.  Same with upbeat on a warlock, their slower casting spells hot for more max damage and their spell haste cap is much higher than a necro.  You can only reduce a casting speed by so much, and adding TC or upbeat tempo to a necro doesn't take full advantage of that increase vs either of the sorcerors classes.  Not to mention most of the big hits from a warlock have dots associated with them, further increasing it usefulness to that class.</p><p>Oh and I'm glad you brought up your mystical dps graph, we all had a great laugh at that.  You can't provide any shred of evidence either fictionally or otherwise of what you claim every time you post.  Claiming you had 17k HP is just a lie, and basing random numbers you tried to get people to figure out was just a joke.  You're exaggerations are just comical at best.</p><p>I don't post the way you just described I explain why I think the statements I make with evidence or detailed screenshots of testing.  You just make up stuff.   Which is better.  And oh, looking thru you're so called stickied post...yea looks like it wasn't just because you made a post...thanks should go to Krafoogoo.</p><p>So what exactly does the necro need specifically in terms of gear?  I mean the whole game is centered around a few things.  But obviously went don't take advantage of those right?  Gear is just fine if they would address and fix the pet stat sharing issue.  Or maybe if they looked at the lifetap spell mod mechanic. Oh wait I guess we could just add some mystical dot frequency gear, right?  Or your idea of tripling the effect spell mod had on spells, yea that was a good one too.</p><p>And I may be gruff with my posts to devs, but I do know others who weren't that got invited to help shed light on the necro class, you know what that got them?  Ignored.  Its because people can't accept criticism, you included.  Everytime somebody says you're wrong you start this whole flame session in that post.  They can provide information, data, or experience, but guess what you are apparently right all the time.   Right...</p>

[hellfire]

<p>Damm i see good ole Xil is at it again..................</p><p>/sigh</p><p>he still hasnt learned looks like</p>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok let's teach you something new this week about the game.  You like the words hit count.  You do realize that producing even 300% more hits that a wizard will still not reduce the fact they and the raid get more from TC right?  you can hit all you want for 700 a pop on diss note or potm or pom and still even approach the dps increase a wiz gets with TC.  its just a fact.  I guess maybe not in your world though.  Same with upbeat on a warlock, their slower casting spells hot for more max damage and their spell haste cap is much higher than a necro.  You can only reduce a casting speed by so much, and adding TC or upbeat tempo to a necro doesn't take full advantage of that increase vs either of the sorcerors classes.  Not to mention most of the big hits from a warlock have dots associated with them, further increasing it usefulness to that class.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Very true alone Wiz and Warlock both get more from TC than a Necro no doubt.  But when you consider that the Necro, per hard hit, Is procing PoTM, PoM, DisNote, Velium, Lash, and the Poison proc from Warlock, those hits being stacked on top of each other start to make a pretty signifigant impact.  You're absolutley right though the majority of the Spell Cast Haste is lost on Necro but the recast and recovery combined with the spell Haste have a signifigant impact on ZoneWide DPS for the Necro.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Lifeburn and Horde cast and refresh fasater, Hit counts for procs sky rocket, casting chains are opened to more spells.  It's not simply 700 damage.  It's 500+700+1100+500+850 ect..  For every hard hit registered.  In a real Mage group Necro can turn those procs into substantial DPS.  And you know it.  When you add 4k+ to every single spell you cast that damage adds up quite fast.  And when you can put those numbers up at 3 times the rate of the other Mage it's quite a large gain.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I think maybe you should do some testing with a Mage group and see for yourself just how much those procs do for you.  Get yourself a Wizard, Warlock, Trouby, Illy, and any healer in the same group and see who adds more DPS to the zonewide with troub TC you or the Warlock.  I think you'll be supprised at just how much difference it can make for you.</span></p><p>Oh and I'm glad you brought up your mystical dps graph, we all had a great laugh at that.  You can't provide any shred of evidence either fictionally or otherwise of what you claim every time you post.  Claiming you had 17k HP is just a lie, and basing random numbers you tried to get people to figure out was just a joke.  You're exaggerations are just comical at best.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Well with bolster and unstopable soul and stacking plate/chain it's really not difficult.  You should try it some time.  And in case you missed the jest the point was that really unless you can put the numbers together you don't understand the mechanics of Necro DPS so trying to defend your point of view without that basic understanding of how Necro DPS works is kinda worthless...</span></p><p>I don't post the way you just described I explain why I think the statements I make with evidence or detailed screenshots of testing.  You just make up stuff.   Which is better.  And oh, looking thru you're so called stickied post...yea looks like it wasn't just because you made a post...thanks should go to Krafoogoo.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">It's still there and you had absolutley nothing to do with it.  Good enough for me.</span></p><p>So what exactly does the necro need specifically in terms of gear?  I mean the whole game is centered around a few things.  But obviously went don't take advantage of those right?  Gear is just fine if they would address and fix the pet stat sharing issue.  Or maybe if they looked at the lifetap spell mod mechanic. Oh wait I guess we could just add some mystical dot frequency gear, right?  Or your idea of tripling the effect spell mod had on spells, yea that was a good one too.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">You didn't read any of what I posted did you lol.  The idea was to fix "<strong><span style="font-size: medium;">PET</span></strong>" DoT spells so they didn't have a split front load anymore because they don't use it anyway.  Same tick start to finish.  But you missed that part didn't you?  Of course you did.  That piece of info would negate your argument and make your ranting seem foolish and childish...</span></p><p>And I may be gruff with my posts to devs, but I do know others who weren't that got invited to help shed light on the necro class, you know what that got them?  Ignored.  Its because people can't accept criticism, you included.  Everytime somebody says you're wrong you start this whole flame session in that post.  They can provide information, data, or experience, but guess what you are apparently right all the time.   Right...  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Well you keep telling me I'm wrong so I can't possibley be right because you've been here so long your opinions have graduated to Fact and therefor should be considered the word of god for all Necro everywhere...  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Only problem is I'm still applying what I know to Raiding every other day where as you are no longer raiding with your necro and haven't been for some time...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And Bigron yer not even a Necro...  Move on.</span></p></blockquote>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok let's teach you something new this week about the game.  You like the words hit count.  You do realize that producing even 300% more hits that a wizard will still not reduce the fact they and the raid get more from TC right?  you can hit all you want for 700 a pop on diss note or potm or pom and still even approach the dps increase a wiz gets with TC.  its just a fact.  I guess maybe not in your world though.  Same with upbeat on a warlock, their slower casting spells hot for more max damage and their spell haste cap is much higher than a necro.  You can only reduce a casting speed by so much, and adding TC or upbeat tempo to a necro doesn't take full advantage of that increase vs either of the sorcerors classes.  Not to mention most of the big hits from a warlock have dots associated with them, further increasing it usefulness to that class.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Very true alone Wiz and Warlock both get more from TC than a Necro no doubt.  But when you consider that the Necro, per hard hit, Is procing PoTM, PoM, DisNote, Velium, Lash, and the Poison proc from Warlock, those hits being stacked on top of each other start to make a pretty signifigant impact.  You're absolutley right though the majority of the Spell Cast Haste is lost on Necro but the recast and recovery combined with the spell Haste have a signifigant impact on ZoneWide DPS for the Necro.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Lifeburn and Horde cast and refresh fasater, Hit counts for procs sky rocket, casting chains are opened to more spells.  It's not simply 700 damage.  It's 500+700+1100+500+850 ect..  For every hard hit registered.  In a real Mage group Necro can turn those procs into substantial DPS.  And you know it.  When you add 4k+ to every single spell you cast that damage adds up quite fast.  And when you can put those numbers up at 3 times the rate of the other Mage it's quite a large gain.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I think maybe you should do some testing with a Mage group and see for yourself just how much those procs do for you.  Get yourself a Wizard, Warlock, Trouby, Illy, and any healer in the same group and see who adds more DPS to the zonewide with troub TC you or the Warlock.  I think you'll be supprised at just how much difference it can make for you.</span></p><p>Oh and I'm glad you brought up your mystical dps graph, we all had a great laugh at that.  You can't provide any shred of evidence either fictionally or otherwise of what you claim every time you post.  Claiming you had 17k HP is just a lie, and basing random numbers you tried to get people to figure out was just a joke.  You're exaggerations are just comical at best.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Well with bolster and unstopable soul and stacking plate/chain it's really not difficult.  You should try it some time.  And in case you missed the jest the point was that really unless you can put the numbers together you don't understand the mechanics of Necro DPS so trying to defend your point of view without that basic understanding of how Necro DPS works is kinda worthless...</span></p><p>I don't post the way you just described I explain why I think the statements I make with evidence or detailed screenshots of testing.  You just make up stuff.   Which is better.  And oh, looking thru you're so called stickied post...yea looks like it wasn't just because you made a post...thanks should go to Krafoogoo.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">It's still there and you had absolutley nothing to do with it.  Good enough for me.</span></p><p>So what exactly does the necro need specifically in terms of gear?  I mean the whole game is centered around a few things.  But obviously went don't take advantage of those right?  Gear is just fine if they would address and fix the pet stat sharing issue.  Or maybe if they looked at the lifetap spell mod mechanic. Oh wait I guess we could just add some mystical dot frequency gear, right?  Or your idea of tripling the effect spell mod had on spells, yea that was a good one too.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">You didn't read any of what I posted did you lol.  The idea was to fix "<strong><span style="font-size: medium;">PET</span></strong>" DoT spells so they didn't have a split front load anymore because they don't use it anyway.  Same tick start to finish.  But you missed that part didn't you?  Of course you did.  That piece of info would negate your argument and make your ranting seem foolish and childish...</span></p><p>And I may be gruff with my posts to devs, but I do know others who weren't that got invited to help shed light on the necro class, you know what that got them?  Ignored.  Its because people can't accept criticism, you included.  Everytime somebody says you're wrong you start this whole flame session in that post.  They can provide information, data, or experience, but guess what you are apparently right all the time.   Right...  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Well you keep telling me I'm wrong so I can't possibley be right because you've been here so long your opinions have graduated to Fact and therefor should be considered the word of god for all Necro everywhere...  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Only problem is I'm still applying what I know to Raiding every other day where as you are no longer raiding with your necro and haven't been for some time...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And Bigron yer not even a Necro...  Move on.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>First off those procs are not all 100%, so thinking they add to every spell cast is just ludicrous.  Maybe learn how those spells work before spouting off again?  And your post about how spell mod should effect pets differently, guess you don't really understand how coding works either.  Taking an existing mechanic and applying solely to pets just isn't ever going to happen.  And oh I did understand your logic in that post, its still wrong tho considering you didn't want just the frontload removed you wanted it all on every tick, or did I not read that correctly and you just wanted it spread over the whole dot which is what me and bigron kept telling you from actually playing with it like that way IS NOT HIGHER DPS?!  So either way your point on that is in fact wrong.</p><p>And I believe if you go back and look at your post about that 17k HP lifeburn you specifically said no bolster, and no soul.  Which I did tell you was impossible to obtain.  Trying to sound superior when none of the information you provide can be deduced as fact is where everybody here calls you on BS.  Claiming you can parse 10-13k in SoH, where the mobs spell mitigation is 2-3 times higher than any other single instance in the game is where everybody here calls BS and doesn't believe a thing you post.</p><p>And for the record I raid on my necro I don't have any other chars really.  And bashing bigron is about all you do these days, he may not be a necro but a lot of people respect his knowledge of the game, including me.  I know he knows how to play and how things work.  But if you'd like to continue making up things, not providing data to backup what you say, or even just pretending like you know how the game works, keep posting.  Me and bigron will probably be right there to show you you're wrong again.  Enjoy.</p>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First off those procs are not all 100%, so thinking they add to every spell cast is just ludicrous.  Maybe learn how those spells work before spouting off again?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Or maybe realise that the proc rates are increased by volume of availible procs?  And 3 of them are garunteed and one is about 50%, while 3 others from the warlock proc from poison and disease damage ONLY and that pretty much ONLY the Necro benefits from them.  Or both of the Procs from Wizard that also proc consistantly (all be it not 100% but close enough when applied together) because of the increased casting speed....  That's a lot of procs to work with as well as Lich from the Necro that is also garunteed at pretty close to 500 damage per spell cast...  Wierd how when you look at the whole picture it's much harder to support your "opinion".  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Let's try to remember that's what it is here.  AN OPINION.  Until you put on the dev shoes and start writing the code yourself yer word is no more valuable than someone who bought the game yesterday hopped on an Exchange server and bought a lvl 80 Necro.  Either is mine that's why I don't try to tell people they are wrong and present my opinions as only my opinions and nothing else... Instead of trying to call my opinion fact like certain other posters I know tend to do.  Because I know full well how rediculously stupid it is to present my opinions as fact when "IN FACT" they are my opinions...</span></p><p>And your post about how spell mod should effect pets differently, guess you don't really understand how coding works either.  Taking an existing mechanic and applying solely to pets just isn't ever going to happen.  And oh I did understand your logic in that post, its still wrong tho considering you didn't want just the frontload removed you wanted it all on every tick, or did I not read that correctly and you just wanted it spread over the whole dot which is what me and bigron kept telling you from actually playing with it like that way IS NOT HIGHER DPS?!  So either way your point on that is in fact wrong.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Actually the point was to modify the DoTs so they offer static DPS based on the tick amounts instead of trying to use front load to determine the DPS, but you also keep skipping over that part because it does support your argument.  It's much easier to say you're wrong than it is to think about the information being presented to you.  You don't see me telling people they are wrong do ya?  No, didn't think so.</span></p><p>And I believe if you go back and look at your post about that 17k HP lifeburn you specifically said no bolster, and no soul.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Did you miss the part where I mentioned you have to know how much Master 1 Unstopable Soul mods your health points?  I guess you did... wierd how easy it is to miss things and make mistakes when you are just skimming for things to pick apart...</span></p><p>Which I did tell you was impossible to obtain.  Trying to sound superior when none of the information you provide can be deduced as fact is where everybody here calls you on BS.  Claiming you can parse 10-13k in SoH, where the mobs spell mitigation is 2-3 times higher than any other single instance in the game is where everybody here calls BS and doesn't believe a thing you post.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">10 to 13k isn't all that hard on hate trash when you Dump Lifeburn and Undead Horde into them considering the majority of that DPS isn't affected by spell mitigation.  And when you have the rediculous amount of poison and disease mit reduction that a properly built raid provides on top of the flat magic mitigation it makes it easier for Necro to parse well even with the massive mitigation levels.  But those things tend to get overlooked for some reason....  It's not about being superior it's about exploring the method of play thoroughly enough to formulate an opinion instead of just lumping summoner in as conjy...  Which people on these boards tend to do.  And it doesn't make much sense.</span></p><p>And for the record I raid on my necro I don't have any other chars really.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Maybe I keep getting you confused with someone else... I coulda swore you said you stopped raiding your necro last summer... It's hard to keep people's names straight when they are just arguing for the sake of argument...</span></p><p>And bashing bigron is about all you do these days, he may not be a necro but a lot of people respect his knowledge of the game, including me.  I know he knows how to play and how things work.  But if you'd like to continue making up things, not providing data to backup what you say, or even just pretending like you know how the game works, keep posting.  Me and bigron will probably be right there to show you you're wrong again.  Enjoy.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">How much is a lot? 3 5? 6 maybe?  And so far you haven't shown me anything but an accute ability to say "you're wrong because I say so"...  Not impressed.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Show me something.  I dare ya.  Anything at all... no?  Oh ok.  I guess you really have nothing to bring to the table either.  Thanks for coming though.</span></p></blockquote>

[Enoa]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>And bashing bigron is about all you do these days, he may not be a necro but a lot of people respect his knowledge of the game, including me.  I know he knows how to play and how things work.  But if you'd like to continue making up things, not providing data to backup what you say, or even just pretending like you know how the game works, keep posting.  Me and bigron will probably be right there to show you you're wrong again.  Enjoy.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">How much is a lot? 3 5? 6 maybe?  And so far you haven't shown me anything but an accute ability to say "you're wrong because I say so"...  Not impressed.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Show me something.  I dare ya.  Anything at all... no?  Oh ok.  I guess you really have nothing to bring to the table either.  Thanks for coming though.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>For the record, sab and bigron are class forum mods for another much better site.   So i'd say the majority of "raiding" community respects their opinions... but oh yeah flames is just for hard-core raiders and trollers /rolls eyes.  </p><p>An illusionist/raid leader that puts TC on a necro over a sorcerer is an idiot or the sorcerer is a slacker.  This isn't opinion. it's fact.</p><p>The main reason a necro gets more from "group procs" is not that we cast faster than sorcerers (plays a role yes).. but because pets proc these effects too.   What does TC do for the pet's proc 'count'... that's right.. absolutely nothing. </p><p>Another thread hijacked.  gratz</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First off those procs are not all 100%, so thinking they add to every spell cast is just ludicrous.  Maybe learn how those spells work before spouting off again?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Or maybe realise that the proc rates are increased by volume of availible procs?  </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>so if it's all about procs i guess enchanters should Tc each other?</p>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First off those procs are not all 100%, so thinking they add to every spell cast is just ludicrous.  Maybe learn how those spells work before spouting off again?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Or maybe realise that the proc rates are increased by volume of availible procs?  </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>so if it's all about procs i guess enchanters should Tc each other?</p></blockquote><p>That would be rediculous DPS no doubt but I think that's what TC can't go on chanters.  Even then though it'd still be wasted with Chronomancing.</p><p>The main reason the procs make all the difference for Necro is because we've got nothing else for sustained DPS but those procs.  The more hard hits we can get the larger the increase to our DPS.  Sorc's don't get that kind of gain.</p><p>--------------------------</p><p>Our DPS doesn't work like the other mage classes at the core level so trying to lump them in with the same kind of itemization will just create more and more scaling issues.  Which is exactly what happened in RoK and continues to happen now.</p><p>The only difference is they are trying to apply the same failed itemization to pets that doesn't work for the summoner...</p><p>And you know why?  Because none of them understand how summoner DPS works enough to make anything but a mildly educated guess.</p><p>I wonder if maybe the fact that not a single member of the summoner playing community has ever attempted to explain it to them in a way they might understand.</p><p>"But... But /sniffle the other mages.... they get the..... /cry"  - this garbage is all I can find on flames and on these forums miles and miles of nothing but crying complaining and garbage....</p><p>Nobody steps forward and shows the develpers anything useful.  How the hell are they going to figure it out?  None of them play the [Removed for Content] classes at any kind of skilled level.</p><p>The real top summoners, the ones who force the issue and push for the highest possible return on the class they play, those summoners and Necro in particular, need to break down how summoner DPS works "AND"(key word here try not to miss it) doesn't work.  So the people who are trying to fix it understand what the hell it is they are doing.</p><p>These games evolve the way players make them evolve.  Players figure out ways to play these games the developers never imagined and absolutley cannot predict.  And because of this they have to constantly adapt to the changes "players" force on the game.</p><p>I think they've had over a year of being told how stuff doesn't work now.  They've pretty well got that covered.</p><p>It's no less important to illustrate clearly how things do work well.  So they can make adjustments that meet those ends.  Instead of taking wild shots in the dark and making things worse.</p><p>You know how I DPS so well and the other Necro who blow up the parses DPS so well?  Because we use every other class that offers us a bonus and turn that bonus into our DPS.  That is how Necro DPS works well.</p><p>We have almost no sustained DPS without doing this.  It's pretty rediculous. Completely agree here.</p><p>But is it broken?  I don't know.  I rather like it.  I can go from doing crap DPS in the scout group with no mage buffs to exploding the parse and nipping at the heals of the Assassin in a Mage group with Wiz/Warlock/Illy/Troub in it.  And if you give me a cleric with divine recovery instead of a fury and put Upbeat Tempo on me I can match that Assassin on the zonewide, not just once a while.  And so can every other Necro at this level of progression.  Once you hit 100% spell crits and enough spell damage those procs stack on top of garunteed large hits and yer zonewide goes WAY up.</p><p>But it only works if you put Necro in the right group with the right buffs.</p><p>The developers need to see that too.  You can't just try and hide it from them in the hopes that they will throw us the uber bone again like you all had in KoS.</p><p>You have to show them the absolute most you can do and exactly how you do it.  So the adjustments are made that accurately address the core issues.  Otherwise they are just gonna try to rework the whole class from the ground up and take the chance of not only failing to hit the mark but make things worse.</p><p>What's the problem with Summoner?</p><p>Our pet's don't scale...We need 4 other classes AND great healing to DPS well....</p><p>How do we fix that?</p><p>Find a way to make pet's scale?Lower our dependance on other classes to DPS?</p><p>Making pet's scale is pretty straight forward.</p><p>But that dependance part is a big grey area.  How are they dependant?  What things are needed to make the class function at it's peak?</p><p>Until those questions are answered.  They can't fix anything.  Because they don't know what they are working with.</p><p>So maybe think about that the next time you go to post about how aweful summoner DPS is and how nothing works and it's all broken and boohooo poor me...</p><p>Maybe instead you show them what does work so the changes they make reflect what is working.  Maybe they give us utility that will allow us less dependance on other classes.  Maybe they figure out a way to scale our pet's that isn't a complete waste of time and energy.</p><p>The greatest design leads in the world tell their staff "don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions".</p><p>If you got no solutions.  You're part of the problem.  Think about that before you flame me yet again.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>Xil,  no one flammed you.   your just wrong and post stupid things at times.</p><p>1. Any class can be stacked to pull off insane numbers, ok geared illys with a stack group can put up 15k's(even more with no healer) i've seen it.</p><p>2. the "boo hoo.. this class sux"  that you acuse me off, stems down to begining of RoK when all the gear mechanics left summoner way behind, this leads us to my next point.</p><p>3. yes the pet does not scale, but that is because no spells scaled from EoF to RoK that much.  clearly this was done in this fashion to accomodate for the new gear mechanics ie. huge amounts of +spell and crit.</p><p>4. i personaly think the current pet scaleing seems to work it just needs to be more powerful, meaning it should be a 1:3 ratio if the summoenr gives up one crit the pet should get 3 crit. same with +spell and summoner should NEVER give up base dmg.</p><p> PS.  what you fail to understand is that summoner being left behind was not some "blunder"  oops!  it was a deliverate action taken by game developers to "tone down" insane summoner(expecialy necro) DPS.   that is why summoner main nukes lost their spread to nerf dmg with high crit rates, that's why lifetaps only benefit from 50% of +spell for dmg, that's why lifeburn was given a 4:5 ratio.   the developers know what they did, and now know they OVER did it because they did not give summoner any other utillity to make up for this HUGE dps loss.</p>

[hellfire]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First off those procs are not all 100%, so thinking they add to every spell cast is just ludicrous.  Maybe learn how those spells work before spouting off again?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Or maybe realise that the proc rates are increased by volume of availible procs?  </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>so if it's all about procs i guess enchanters should Tc each other?</p></blockquote><p>And you know why?  Because none of them understand how summoner DPS works enough to make anything but a mildly educated guess.</p><p>I wonder if maybe the fact that not a single member of the summoner playing community has ever attempted to explain it to them in a way they might understand.</p><p>"But... But /sniffle the other mages.... they get the..... /cry"  - this garbage is all I can find on flames and on these forums miles and miles of nothing but crying complaining and garbage....</p><p>Nobody steps forward and shows the develpers anything useful.  How the hell are they going to figure it out?  None of them play the [Removed for Content] classes at any kind of skilled level.</p><p>The real top summoners, the ones who force the issue and push for the highest possible return on the class they play, those summoners and Necro in particular, need to break down how summoner DPS works "AND"(key word here try not to miss it) doesn't work.  So the people who are trying to fix it understand what the hell it is they are doing.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"> [Removed for Content] so get a job there then  and tell them  what they dont know about the game they designed heh.But  you still fail to relize when you are wrong with info or knowlege  you will get called out..... bring the right stuff or dont bring it at all.</span></p><p>But is it broken?  I don't know.  I rather like it.  I can go from doing crap DPS in the scout group with no mage buffs to exploding the parse and nipping at the heals of the Assassin in a Mage group with Wiz/Warlock/Illy/Troub in it.  And if you give me a cleric with divine recovery instead of a fury and put Upbeat Tempo on me I can match that Assassin on the zonewide, not just once a while.  And so can every other Necro at this level of progression.  Once you hit 100% spell crits and enough spell damage those procs stack on top of garunteed large hits and yer zonewide goes WAY up.</p><p>But it only works if you put Necro in the right group with the right buffs.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No not  completly true.Buffs only can deliver so much  the better gear gets the wider the gap becomes wider because you are still only reciveing 70 pct of benifit from gear.Everything is all fine at the median and that is where you are.Probs exssist and become more noticable and prevelant at the high end. </span></p><p>If you got no solutions.  You're part of the problem.  Think about that before you flame me yet again.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Havent seen any flames here.....you just dont accept constuctive critazizm well or just being corrected at all.Maybe if 90 pct of the information you put up here wasnt false and you attitude was different  it wouldnt be that way.</span></p></blockquote>

[hellfire]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First off those procs are not all 100%, so thinking they add to every spell cast is just ludicrous.  Maybe learn how those spells work before spouting off again?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Or maybe realise that the proc rates are increased by volume of availible procs?  </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>so if it's all about procs i guess enchanters should Tc each other?</p></blockquote><p>And you know why?  Because none of them understand how summoner DPS works enough to make anything but a mildly educated guess.</p><p>I wonder if maybe the fact that not a single member of the summoner playing community has ever attempted to explain it to them in a way they might understand.</p><p>"But... But /sniffle the other mages.... they get the..... /cry"  - this garbage is all I can find on flames and on these forums miles and miles of nothing but crying complaining and garbage....</p><p>Nobody steps forward and shows the develpers anything useful.  How the hell are they going to figure it out?  None of them play the [Removed for Content] classes at any kind of skilled level.</p><p>The real top summoners, the ones who force the issue and push for the highest possible return on the class they play, those summoners and Necro in particular, need to break down how summoner DPS works "AND"(key word here try not to miss it) doesn't work.  So the people who are trying to fix it understand what the hell it is they are doing.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"> [Removed for Content] so get a job there then  and tell them  what they dont know about the game they designed heh.But  you still fail to relize when you are wrong with info or knowlege  you will get called out..... bring the right stuff or dont bring it at all.</span></p><p>But is it broken?  I don't know.  I rather like it.  I can go from doing crap DPS in the scout group with no mage buffs to exploding the parse and nipping at the heals of the Assassin in a Mage group with Wiz/Warlock/Illy/Troub in it.  And if you give me a cleric with divine recovery instead of a fury and put Upbeat Tempo on me I can match that Assassin on the zonewide, not just once a while.  And so can every other Necro at this level of progression.  Once you hit 100% spell crits and enough spell damage those procs stack on top of garunteed large hits and yer zonewide goes WAY up.</p><p>But it only works if you put Necro in the right group with the right buffs.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No not  completly true.Buffs only can deliver so much  the better gear gets the wider the gap becomes wider because you are still only reciveing 70 pct of benifit from gear.Everything is all fine at the median and that is where you are.Probs exssist and become more noticable and prevelant at the high end. </span></p><p>If you got no solutions.  You're part of the problem.  Think about that before you flame me yet again.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Havent seen any flames here.....you just dont accept constuctive critazizm well or just being corrected at all.Maybe if 90 pct of the information you put up here wasnt false and you attitude was different  it wouldnt be that way.</span></p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And no sorry......that wasnt a flame lol.</span></blockquote>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First off those procs are not all 100%, so thinking they add to every spell cast is just ludicrous.  Maybe learn how those spells work before spouting off again?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Or maybe realise that the proc rates are increased by volume of availible procs?  </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>so if it's all about procs i guess enchanters should Tc each other?</p></blockquote><p>That would be rediculous DPS no doubt but I think that's what TC can't go on chanters.  Even then though it'd still be wasted with Chronomancing.</p><p>The main reason the procs make all the difference for Necro is because we've got nothing else for sustained DPS but those procs.  The more hard hits we can get the larger the increase to our DPS.  Sorc's don't get that kind of gain.</p><p>--------------------------</p><p>Our DPS doesn't work like the other mage classes at the core level so trying to lump them in with the same kind of itemization will just create more and more scaling issues.  Which is exactly what happened in RoK and continues to happen now.</p><p>The only difference is they are trying to apply the same failed itemization to pets that doesn't work for the summoner...</p><p>And you know why?  Because none of them understand how summoner DPS works enough to make anything but a mildly educated guess.</p><p>I wonder if maybe the fact that not a single member of the summoner playing community has ever attempted to explain it to them in a way they might understand.</p><p>"But... But /sniffle the other mages.... they get the..... /cry"  - this garbage is all I can find on flames and on these forums miles and miles of nothing but crying complaining and garbage....</p><p>Nobody steps forward and shows the develpers anything useful.  How the hell are they going to figure it out?  None of them play the [Removed for Content] classes at any kind of skilled level.</p><p>The real top summoners, the ones who force the issue and push for the highest possible return on the class they play, those summoners and Necro in particular, need to break down how summoner DPS works "AND"(key word here try not to miss it) doesn't work.  So the people who are trying to fix it understand what the hell it is they are doing.</p><p>These games evolve the way players make them evolve.  Players figure out ways to play these games the developers never imagined and absolutley cannot predict.  And because of this they have to constantly adapt to the changes "players" force on the game.</p><p>I think they've had over a year of being told how stuff doesn't work now.  They've pretty well got that covered.</p><p>It's no less important to illustrate clearly how things do work well.  So they can make adjustments that meet those ends.  Instead of taking wild shots in the dark and making things worse.</p><p>You know how I DPS so well and the other Necro who blow up the parses DPS so well?  Because we use every other class that offers us a bonus and turn that bonus into our DPS.  That is how Necro DPS works well.</p><p>We have almost no sustained DPS without doing this.  It's pretty rediculous. Completely agree here.</p><p>But is it broken?  I don't know.  I rather like it.  I can go from doing crap DPS in the scout group with no mage buffs to exploding the parse and nipping at the heals of the Assassin in a Mage group with Wiz/Warlock/Illy/Troub in it.  And if you give me a cleric with divine recovery instead of a fury and put Upbeat Tempo on me I can match that Assassin on the zonewide, not just once a while.  And so can every other Necro at this level of progression.  Once you hit 100% spell crits and enough spell damage those procs stack on top of garunteed large hits and yer zonewide goes WAY up.</p><p>But it only works if you put Necro in the right group with the right buffs.</p><p>The developers need to see that too.  You can't just try and hide it from them in the hopes that they will throw us the uber bone again like you all had in KoS.</p><p>You have to show them the absolute most you can do and exactly how you do it.  So the adjustments are made that accurately address the core issues.  Otherwise they are just gonna try to rework the whole class from the ground up and take the chance of not only failing to hit the mark but make things worse.</p><p>What's the problem with Summoner?</p><p>Our pet's don't scale...We need 4 other classes AND great healing to DPS well....</p><p>How do we fix that?</p><p>Find a way to make pet's scale?Lower our dependance on other classes to DPS?</p><p>Making pet's scale is pretty straight forward.</p><p>But that dependance part is a big grey area.  How are they dependant?  What things are needed to make the class function at it's peak?</p><p>Until those questions are answered.  They can't fix anything.  Because they don't know what they are working with.</p><p>So maybe think about that the next time you go to post about how aweful summoner DPS is and how nothing works and it's all broken and boohooo poor me...</p><p>Maybe instead you show them what does work so the changes they make reflect what is working.  Maybe they give us utility that will allow us less dependance on other classes.  Maybe they figure out a way to scale our pet's that isn't a complete waste of time and energy.</p><p>The greatest design leads in the world tell their staff "don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions".</p><p>If you got no solutions.  You're part of the problem.  Think about that before you flame me yet again.</p></blockquote><p>Not sure why you think gear isn't the same for every class but it is.  The single biggest problem, and I'm sure you don't agree at all or you would have noticed I keep saying this over and over for a solution, is that our pets have major issues with our gear.  Adding effects to gear that boosts the pet but takes away from the summoner isn't fixing any issues.  100% gear sharing is the only way this is going to go away, the rest of the gear will work just like every other class does.  Chanters have just as many fast cast low damage dots as summoners do but they do fine, why?  Cause they utilize 100% of their gear.</p><p>And to say the other classes don't utilize procs from other classes is just false, the hit count on a summoner is misleading due to the dots, sorcerors and chanters have near as many if not more hits than a summoner does.  Yes we rely on many classes, but not as many as you'd think.  The only difference is that our utility gets in the way such that if there is a better class, ie one that provides those procs to others, we can easily be subbed in or moved to a less desirable group.  Adding a proc type buff to our repitoire would help, but would be far from a overall solution.</p><p>The major problem with these devs over the years is not that people haven't come with solutions, its that they don't believe those solutions fit what they 'envision' the class to be.  Its that vision that needs to change for any real change to happen, but its stubborness that prevents it.  Losing foresight by giving every class in the game the utility we brought to a raid force just shows how little they think things thru.  I don't really care that they gave FD, power management, coth to everybody, but I do expect them to forgo their thoughts on how this class should be designed then and just make us straight up dps gods.  I mean its only fair right?</p><p>Its clear they don't really expect much from their dev or community managers from their lack of showing the community they are listening.  I can help provide any kind of data they want in respect to how this gear works, but any posts in that fashion either fall on deaf ears, or is locked because there are 'too many' in existence already.  The fact is, they don't really even want to think about it right now, hence the ignoring.  But to be honest, that's the fastest way to lose a loyal fan base and a subscription.</p>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First off those procs are not all 100%, so thinking they add to every spell cast is just ludicrous.  Maybe learn how those spells work before spouting off again?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Or maybe realise that the proc rates are increased by volume of availible procs?  </span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>so if it's all about procs i guess enchanters should Tc each other?</p></blockquote><p>That would be rediculous DPS no doubt but I think that's what TC can't go on chanters.  Even then though it'd still be wasted with Chronomancing.</p><p>The main reason the procs make all the difference for Necro is because we've got nothing else for sustained DPS but those procs.  The more hard hits we can get the larger the increase to our DPS.  Sorc's don't get that kind of gain.</p><p>--------------------------</p><p>Our DPS doesn't work like the other mage classes at the core level so trying to lump them in with the same kind of itemization will just create more and more scaling issues.  Which is exactly what happened in RoK and continues to happen now.</p><p>The only difference is they are trying to apply the same failed itemization to pets that doesn't work for the summoner...</p><p>And you know why?  Because none of them understand how summoner DPS works enough to make anything but a mildly educated guess.</p><p>I wonder if maybe the fact that not a single member of the summoner playing community has ever attempted to explain it to them in a way they might understand.</p><p>"But... But /sniffle the other mages.... they get the..... /cry"  - this garbage is all I can find on flames and on these forums miles and miles of nothing but crying complaining and garbage....</p><p>Nobody steps forward and shows the develpers anything useful.  How the hell are they going to figure it out?  None of them play the [Removed for Content] classes at any kind of skilled level.</p><p>The real top summoners, the ones who force the issue and push for the highest possible return on the class they play, those summoners and Necro in particular, need to break down how summoner DPS works "AND"(key word here try not to miss it) doesn't work.  So the people who are trying to fix it understand what the hell it is they are doing.</p><p>These games evolve the way players make them evolve.  Players figure out ways to play these games the developers never imagined and absolutley cannot predict.  And because of this they have to constantly adapt to the changes "players" force on the game.</p><p>I think they've had over a year of being told how stuff doesn't work now.  They've pretty well got that covered.</p><p>It's no less important to illustrate clearly how things do work well.  So they can make adjustments that meet those ends.  Instead of taking wild shots in the dark and making things worse.</p><p>You know how I DPS so well and the other Necro who blow up the parses DPS so well?  Because we use every other class that offers us a bonus and turn that bonus into our DPS.  That is how Necro DPS works well.</p><p>We have almost no sustained DPS without doing this.  It's pretty rediculous. Completely agree here.</p><p>But is it broken?  I don't know.  I rather like it.  I can go from doing crap DPS in the scout group with no mage buffs to exploding the parse and nipping at the heals of the Assassin in a Mage group with Wiz/Warlock/Illy/Troub in it.  And if you give me a cleric with divine recovery instead of a fury and put Upbeat Tempo on me I can match that Assassin on the zonewide, not just once a while.  And so can every other Necro at this level of progression.  Once you hit 100% spell crits and enough spell damage those procs stack on top of garunteed large hits and yer zonewide goes WAY up.</p><p>But it only works if you put Necro in the right group with the right buffs.</p><p>The developers need to see that too.  You can't just try and hide it from them in the hopes that they will throw us the uber bone again like you all had in KoS.</p><p>You have to show them the absolute most you can do and exactly how you do it.  So the adjustments are made that accurately address the core issues.  Otherwise they are just gonna try to rework the whole class from the ground up and take the chance of not only failing to hit the mark but make things worse.</p><p>What's the problem with Summoner?</p><p>Our pet's don't scale...We need 4 other classes AND great healing to DPS well....</p><p>How do we fix that?</p><p>Find a way to make pet's scale?Lower our dependance on other classes to DPS?</p><p>Making pet's scale is pretty straight forward.</p><p>But that dependance part is a big grey area.  How are they dependant?  What things are needed to make the class function at it's peak?</p><p>Until those questions are answered.  They can't fix anything.  Because they don't know what they are working with.</p><p>So maybe think about that the next time you go to post about how aweful summoner DPS is and how nothing works and it's all broken and boohooo poor me...</p><p>Maybe instead you show them what does work so the changes they make reflect what is working.  Maybe they give us utility that will allow us less dependance on other classes.  Maybe they figure out a way to scale our pet's that isn't a complete waste of time and energy.</p><p>The greatest design leads in the world tell their staff "don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions".</p><p>If you got no solutions.  You're part of the problem.  Think about that before you flame me yet again.</p></blockquote><p>Not sure why you think gear isn't the same for every class but it is.  The single biggest problem, and I'm sure you don't agree at all or you would have noticed I keep saying this over and over for a solution, is that our pets have major issues with our gear.  Adding effects to gear that boosts the pet but takes away from the summoner isn't fixing any issues.  100% gear sharing is the only way this is going to go away, the rest of the gear will work just like every other class does.  Chanters have just as many fast cast low damage dots as summoners do but they do fine, why?  Cause they utilize 100% of their gear.</p><p>And to say the other classes don't utilize procs from other classes is just false, the hit count on a summoner is misleading due to the dots, sorcerors and chanters have near as many if not more hits than a summoner does.  Yes we rely on many classes, but not as many as you'd think.  The only difference is that our utility gets in the way such that if there is a better class, ie one that provides those procs to others, we can easily be subbed in or moved to a less desirable group.  Adding a proc type buff to our repitoire would help, but would be far from a overall solution.</p><p>The major problem with these devs over the years is not that people haven't come with solutions, its that they don't believe those solutions fit what they 'envision' the class to be.  Its that vision that needs to change for any real change to happen, but its stubborness that prevents it.  Losing foresight by giving every class in the game the utility we brought to a raid force just shows how little they think things thru.  I don't really care that they gave FD, power management, coth to everybody, but I do expect them to forgo their thoughts on how this class should be designed then and just make us straight up dps gods.  I mean its only fair right?</p><p>Its clear they don't really expect much from their dev or community managers from their lack of showing the community they are listening.  I can help provide any kind of data they want in respect to how this gear works, but any posts in that fashion either fall on deaf ears, or is locked because there are 'too many' in existence already.  The fact is, they don't really even want to think about it right now, hence the ignoring.  But to be honest, that's the fastest way to lose a loyal fan base and a subscription.</p></blockquote><p>Not talkin about DoT hit counts.  Talking about the rediculous amount of times Necro can trigger PoTM, PoM, Lich, Gift, Note, Flames, ect..  Only chanters compare.  Sorc's put up about 1/3 the procs and therefor you can say 1/3 the actual hits.  But chanters can't use the HAWT warlock procs that only trigger off poison and disease damage.</p><p>And gear doesn't work the same for us because alot more of our DPS doesn't scale with gear than just our pets.  Dumbfires? No scale...  Procs?  No Scale...  DoTs?  Partial scale... Drain Life?  Partial scale...</p><p>Spell damage and spell crits are not enough for summoner.  We need proc enhancements, reuse speed, +base damage, in droves where other classes don't need much at all.  Our DPS is based on other mechanics mainly proc mechanics so to scale us up we need to be able to increase proc counts even further.</p><p>AA's that increase proc chance.  Gear that proc's 100% spell recovery reduction instead of spell casting reduction.  Small increases to +Base damage in place of +spell damage.  And make that +Base affect or pets.</p><p>Little stuff like that.</p><p>So much more than our Primary pet is overlooked with typical mage gear it's rediculous.</p>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not talkin about DoT hit counts.  Talking about the rediculous amount of times Necro can trigger PoTM, PoM, Lich, Gift, Note, Flames, ect..  Only chanters compare.  Sorc's put up about 1/3 the procs and therefor you can say 1/3 the actual hits.  But chanters can't use the HAWT warlock procs that only trigger off poison and disease damage.</p><p>And gear doesn't work the same for us because alot more of our DPS doesn't scale with gear than just our pets.  Dumbfires? No scale...  Procs?  No Scale...  DoTs?  Partial scale... Drain Life?  Partial scale...</p><p>Spell damage and spell crits are not enough for summoner.  We need proc enhancements, reuse speed, +base damage, in droves where other classes don't need much at all.  Our DPS is based on other mechanics mainly proc mechanics so to scale us up we need to be able to increase proc counts even further.</p><p>AA's that increase proc chance.  Gear that proc's 100% spell recovery reduction instead of spell casting reduction.  Small increases to +Base damage in place of +spell damage.  And make that +Base affect or pets.</p><p>Little stuff like that.</p><p>So much more than our Primary pet is overlooked with typical mage gear it's rediculous.</p></blockquote><p>So you're understanding of game mechanics comes forth once again.  First You are right dumbfires don't take into account any crit or spell gear, but then that would be another pet sharing problem.  Dots don't take advantage of spell gear?  since when?  I look at mine and I get 100% spell mod on my dots, its a overall mechanic issue.  The only spells that really fail on spell mod are both lifetaps and pandemic.  But with more multi-encounter mobs in this expansion pandemic is just fine, half of the problem with bloodcloud is fine now, but they still need to look at the 50/50 thing.  I really could care less if I heal more, I mean its nice but since a lot of the new raid gear has +heal on it, maybe they could use that on the heal portion of it.</p><p>Why would we be the only class in the game to increase proc rates outside of templars or dirges?  And you do know that some of the procs from a troub are based on THEIR gear?  We do not need proc enhancements.  Base damage?  seriously?  We are one of the worst classes for base increase gear.  Yea it helps, but its completely lost on us cause of the low damage of our spells.  Recovery gear?  Huh?  the 0.5 secs on most spells isn't enough, even if you capped it out is 0.25 really going to make that much of a difference? </p><p>And its a lot closer than 1/3 as many hits from a sorc.  Maybe should play with some decent ones.</p><p>And back to the proc count, so you want us to rely even more on other classes?  I thought the idea was to make us more independant?  Reuse gear for the most part is lost on us cause we really don't approach any casting cap where we need it.  It helps on Undead horde, but the recast on that spell is another matter.</p>

[Xil]

<p><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not talkin about DoT hit counts.  Talking about the rediculous amount of times Necro can trigger PoTM, PoM, Lich, Gift, Note, Flames, ect..  Only chanters compare.  Sorc's put up about 1/3 the procs and therefor you can say 1/3 the actual hits.  But chanters can't use the HAWT warlock procs that only trigger off poison and disease damage.</p><p>And gear doesn't work the same for us because alot more of our DPS doesn't scale with gear than just our pets.  Dumbfires? No scale...  Procs?  No Scale...  DoTs?  Partial scale... Drain Life?  Partial scale...</p><p>Spell damage and spell crits are not enough for summoner.  We need proc enhancements, reuse speed, +base damage, in droves where other classes don't need much at all.  Our DPS is based on other mechanics mainly proc mechanics so to scale us up we need to be able to increase proc counts even further.</p><p>AA's that increase proc chance.  Gear that proc's 100% spell recovery reduction instead of spell casting reduction.  Small increases to +Base damage in place of +spell damage.  And make that +Base affect or pets.</p><p>Little stuff like that.</p><p>So much more than our Primary pet is overlooked with typical mage gear it's rediculous.</p></blockquote><p>So you're understanding of game mechanics comes forth once again.  First You are right dumbfires don't take into account any crit or spell gear, but then that would be another pet sharing problem.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">They are supposed to be SPELLS.  The only reason they are useless is because the damage doesn't increase on them with gear.  If they are supposed to be pets they need to benefit from our pet buffs.</span></p><p>Dots don't take advantage of spell gear?  since when?  I look at mine and I get 100% spell mod on my dots, its a overall mechanic issue.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I said partial....   It raises the front load and does nothing for the DoT ticks.  Hense partial scale.</span></p><p>The only spells that really fail on spell mod are both lifetaps and pandemic.  But with more multi-encounter mobs in this expansion pandemic is just fine, half of the problem with bloodcloud is fine now, but they still need to look at the 50/50 thing.  I really could care less if I heal more, I mean its nice but since a lot of the new raid gear has +heal on it, maybe they could use that on the heal portion of it.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">We are a class that uses Health to do damage and regen power.  The healing on our Life Taps should scale up with gear as well.  But they really should be seperate.</span></p><p>Why would we be the only class in the game to increase proc rates outside of templars or dirges?  And you do know that some of the procs from a troub are based on THEIR gear?  We do not need proc enhancements.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Seeing as how Procs are the majority of our DPS potential why not?  And why are we the only class in the game that offers no Utility at all to other classes is a much better question.  Allowing us to increase proc rates would be a valuable utility.</span></p><p>Base damage?  seriously?  We are one of the worst classes for base increase gear.  Yea it helps, but its completely lost on us cause of the low damage of our spells.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I think you have +Spell and +Base confused.  +Spell is capped by low damage spells.  +Base increases the damage of low damage spells...</span></p><p>Recovery gear?  Huh?  the 0.5 secs on most spells isn't enough, even if you capped it out is 0.25 really going to make that much of a difference? <span style="color: #ff0000;"> /sigh RECAST... let's use some deductive reasoning here</span>.</p><p>And its a lot closer than 1/3 as many hits from a sorc.  Maybe should play with some decent ones.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Or maybe you should adjust your casting chain to get more procs out.  If you aren't putting up a huge number of proc hits compared to a Sorc you are wasting tons of DPS potential.</span></p><p>And back to the proc count, so you want us to rely even more on other classes?  I thought the idea was to make us more independant?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">We already max out the dependence on other classes... What I'm saying is use that more effectively.  Allow us the ability to scale up our DPS potential using the existing mechanics so we get more out of each and depend less on having all of them at once.</span></p><p>Reuse gear for the most part is lost on us cause we really don't approach any casting cap where we need it.  It helps on Undead horde, but the recast on that spell is another matter.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Actually it allows us to get more front load hits from Soul Rot, Bloodcoil, Drainlife, Dumbfires, and all detrminetals, and since all of them are garunteed to proc our Lich and the majority of them are considered Damage Spells they also Proc all other kinds of procs.  The more often we can use them the more our DPS goes up exponentially.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Lifeburn and Undead Horde are also important to reduce the recast on as much as gear and buffs will allow.  Every reduction to recast time is a noticable increase to overall DPS for a Necro because we have mostly low cast time spells.</span></p></blockquote>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Xil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>So you're understanding of game mechanics comes forth once again.  First You are right dumbfires don't take into account any crit or spell gear, but then that would be another pet sharing problem.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">They are supposed to be SPELLS.  The only reason they are useless is because the damage doesn't increase on them with gear.  If they are supposed to be pets they need to benefit from our pet buffs.</span></p><p>Dots don't take advantage of spell gear?  since when?  I look at mine and I get 100% spell mod on my dots, its a overall mechanic issue.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I said partial....   It raises the front load and does nothing for the DoT ticks.  Hense partial scale.  <span style="color: #3366ff;">Nope, wrong again.  Dots are using all kinds of spell mod, its front loaded, front loaded = good.  We tried to explain to you that spell mod over the duration of the dot DOES NOT INCREASE DPS!  You must have been absent during the duration of this, it was awful and suggesting bringing it back is just wrong.</span></span></p><p>The only spells that really fail on spell mod are both lifetaps and pandemic.  But with more multi-encounter mobs in this expansion pandemic is just fine, half of the problem with bloodcloud is fine now, but they still need to look at the 50/50 thing.  I really could care less if I heal more, I mean its nice but since a lot of the new raid gear has +heal on it, maybe they could use that on the heal portion of it.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">We are a class that uses Health to do damage and regen power.  The healing on our Life Taps should scale up with gear as well.  But they really should be seperate.</span></p><p>Why would we be the only class in the game to increase proc rates outside of templars or dirges?  And you do know that some of the procs from a troub are based on THEIR gear?  We do not need proc enhancements.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Seeing as how Procs are the majority of our DPS potential why not?  And why are we the only class in the game that offers no Utility at all to other classes is a much better question.  Allowing us to increase proc rates would be a valuable utility.  <span style="color: #3366ff;">This was at a time the only reason people brought warlocks on raids, I really don't want to be a token invite I want some real usefulness.</span></span></p><p>Base damage?  seriously?  We are one of the worst classes for base increase gear.  Yea it helps, but its completely lost on us cause of the low damage of our spells.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I think you have +Spell and +Base confused.  +Spell is capped by low damage spells.  +Base increases the damage of low damage spells...  <span style="color: #3366ff;">Right...5% increase on a 1000 dmg spell is what? 50 so right, +Base really helps there!!  Again read here cause I said it helps some but its really lost on us.</span></span></p><p>Recovery gear?  Huh?  the 0.5 secs on most spells isn't enough, even if you capped it out is 0.25 really going to make that much of a difference? <span style="color: #ff0000;"> /sigh RECAST... let's use some deductive reasoning here</span>. <span style="color: #3366ff;">Huh? You specifically said recovery which does practically nothing in game.</span>   <span style="color: #00ffff;"> </span></p><p>And its a lot closer than 1/3 as many hits from a sorc.  Maybe should play with some decent ones.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Or maybe you should adjust your casting chain to get more procs out.  If you aren't putting up a huge number of proc hits compared to a Sorc you are wasting tons of DPS potential. <span style="color: #3366ff;">I put out plenty thanks, you need to play with better sorcerors.</span></span></p><p>And back to the proc count, so you want us to rely even more on other classes?  I thought the idea was to make us more independant?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">We already max out the dependence on other classes... What I'm saying is use that more effectively.  Allow us the ability to scale up our DPS potential using the existing mechanics so we get more out of each and depend less on having all of them at once.</span></p><p>Reuse gear for the most part is lost on us cause we really don't approach any casting cap where we need it.  It helps on Undead horde, but the recast on that spell is another matter.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Actually it allows us to get more front load hits from Soul Rot, Bloodcoil, Drainlife, Dumbfires, and all detrminetals, and since all of them are garunteed to proc our Lich and the majority of them are considered Damage Spells they also Proc all other kinds of procs.  The more often we can use them the more our DPS goes up exponentially.  <span style="color: #3366ff;">Well since any kind of decent casting routine you don't approach any casting cap, there is no need for reuse really.  They don't typically put it on gear with +cast speed increase which is actually more useful for necros.  There are only 2 items in game that effect lifeburn recast timer, and undead horde doesn't really approach usefulness that would make somebody use reuse gear over something better.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Lifeburn and Undead Horde are also important to reduce the recast on as much as gear and buffs will allow.  Every reduction to recast time is a noticable increase to overall DPS for a Necro because we have mostly low cast time spells.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote>

[Germs666]

<p>I noticed that this spell is casting Undead tide along with undead horde!!! This spell is broken.</p><p>As a necro if you care about this class at all you need to send IN GAME reports. Tell them it is a bug. I know petitioning isn't allowed but if we can spam SOE with enough reports they might acutally get off of their duffs and address the issue.</p><p>BROKEN spells are bugged and must be reported!!! I'm sending mine today!!</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<p>Horde needs to be on a 5 min recast timer and our swarm pets need to eb immune to non targeted blue AOEs as they can be cured like dots AND blasted like toons.  Double penalty ftw.  Also a higher damage proc rate off them and better hit rate. </p>

[Hardain]

<p>Is this the only spell along with Execute in game that has 15min recast? It really should be 5 mins or make the spell do more damage. Shouldn't be that hard to fix.</p>

[Mew]

<p>Evac has a 15 min recast timer.  I think the SK's life tap, Harm Touch, is 15 or 20 min reuse.  Most deity abilities are 1 hour reuse.  Certain potions have 5 to 15 min timers. </p>

[Nuhus]

<p><cite>Mewse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> I think the SK's life tap, Harm Touch, is 15 or 20 min reuse. </p></blockquote><p>With the TSO SK changes damage was reduced and reuse was downed to 4 min 20 seconds (somewhere around there)</p>

[Clymene]

<p>If the recast of Undead tide/horde is changed, then to be fair Plane Shift for the conjurors must also be changed.</p>

[Sabutai]

<p><cite>Sihd@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If the recast of Undead tide/horde is changed, then to be fair Plane Shift for the conjurors must also be changed.</p></blockquote><p>why?  Conjurors can already get this timer under 6 mins with gear, necros have never gotten anything that reduces this timer en masse like conjurors do...  Thanks for coming over tho.</p>