Since we have a tank change

[madha]

<p>Since tanks are no longer ment to dps in group content and are only ment to be meat sheilds.</p><p>I think healers and support classes need to recive a massive dps decrease as well. I mean gawd chanters can out parse wizards and furies can to. They are expected to heal and support in groups not dps. It's time for a change, can't have just one archetype excluded from dpsign in order to provide their primary function.</p><p>This is sarcasim but is this to far off from the future?  I mean when healers are out dpsing tanks after the change, whats to come of it when tanks start complaining that they are being out dpsed by non dps classes.</p><p>I understand not wanting pure dps to be the only way tanks hold agro, but there has to be a different way to make tanks use taunts and roll in defensive stance. How about dmg from tanks cause .2% agro compaird to what they do now.</p><p>  I just dont want to see dps classes excluded from groups casue they cant pump out 8k dps every fight. Tanks where a big chunk of the groups dps and now that we are loosing alot of that stuff will take longer to die, and poor dpsers will be kicked to the curb, im not most classes im talking players.  I'll run a zone with a wizard doing 2k dps if stuff dies fast and the zone doesnt take forever, but after the changes i doubt i will, i dont have all day to run zones.</p>

[Katanalla]

<p>Enchanters, superior dps, group utility, and soloing capabilities</p>

[madha]

<p><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Enchanters, superior dps, group utility, and soloing capabilities</p></blockquote><p>tanks used to be meat sheilds and dps, and since they are only aloud to be one all other classes should be forced into one role its only fair and balanced.</p><p>Im just giving you a heads up its comming after a few months of tanks complaining about being on the botum of the parse under templers, healer dps is going to get nerfed, and after healers whine that support classes bring to many buffs and dps to groups they will get nerfed too. You heard it here first im going book mark this post and link it in about 5 months when healers cant cast dps spells the secod they are grouped because they go into auto healer stance. and support classes get a across the board nerf no more da for bards and no spell crit and fast cast for chanters. Soon we will be back to the eq1 groups where you have to have a pure dpser with you or stuff will not die.</p><p>i dare a dev to say this will never happen. will only conferm that its in the works</p>

[Barbai]

<p> <img src="http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/sky-is-falling.jpg" /></p><p>holy cow the sky is falling! Yesh, yes classes are getting changed but you know what thats part of deal of playing a live changing game if you want to influence changes go on test and look at the new stuff and feedback.  Just remember that the stuff hasn't hit live yet so its still in the works.</p>

[madha]

<p>love the pic but just casue im a  dooms sayer doesnt mean it wont happen, i mean explain why healers should be able to dps while tanks cannot if they meaning to tank. Healers are intended to heal im just calling in that there will be another rebalance when tanks are at the bottum of the dps pile and healers, while still healing their group, are out parsing them. Just because tanks are suposed to be meat sheilds it doent mean they need to do bottum rung dps while holding agro, wizards can do great dps and hold agro and with good enough healers cant tank a bit, scouts are also fare tanks with good healers, so why cant tanks dps?</p>

[Detor]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since tanks are no longer ment to dps in group content and are only ment to be meat sheilds.</p><p>I think healers and support classes need to recive a massive dps decrease as well.</p></blockquote><p>You know they have sprinkled nerfs here and there to everybody in this update right?  Heck, they even nerfed Praetor's Guard!  Yep, that fabled, rare, kunark item that's over 2 years old now.  Warlocks will need to cut back now with the very classes they used to be best paired with like paladins (warlocks lose their hate transfer as well, and to boot warlocks don't get the -hate that wizards do).  Support classes like enchanters got nerfed too - their TSO AA does 30% less dmg than it did before (stealth change too, imagine their surprise when they logged on test).  There's plenty of changes to spread around in this GU.</p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>This is sarcasim but is this to far off from the future? </blockquote><p>Anyone that can not see that chanters are next in line for a DPS cut needs to see an optomitrist.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>This is sarcasim but is this to far off from the future? </blockquote><p>Anyone that can not see that chanters are next in line for a DPS cut needs to see an optomitrist.</p></blockquote><p>But.... they're among the most recent recipients of a revamp/DPS boost!</p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>This is sarcasim but is this to far off from the future? </blockquote><p>Anyone that can not see that chanters are next in line for a DPS cut needs to see an optomitrist.</p></blockquote><p>But.... they're among the most recent recipients of a revamp/DPS boost!</p></blockquote><p>Yep.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since tanks are no longer ment to dps in group content and are only ment to be meat sheilds.</p><p>I think healers and support classes need to recive a massive dps decrease as well. I mean gawd chanters can out parse wizards and furies can to. They are expected to heal and support in groups not dps. It's time for a change, can't have just one archetype excluded from dpsign in order to provide their primary function.</p><p>This is sarcasim but is this to far off from the future?  I mean when healers are out dpsing tanks after the change, whats to come of it when tanks start complaining that they are being out dpsed by non dps classes.</p><p>I understand not wanting pure dps to be the only way tanks hold agro, but there has to be a different way to make tanks use taunts and roll in defensive stance. How about dmg from tanks cause .2% agro compaird to what they do now.</p><p>  I just dont want to see dps classes excluded from groups casue they cant pump out 8k dps every fight. Tanks where a big chunk of the groups dps and now that we are loosing alot of that stuff will take longer to die, and poor dpsers will be kicked to the curb, im not most classes im talking players.  I'll run a zone with a wizard doing 2k dps if stuff dies fast and the zone doesnt take forever, but after the changes i doubt i will, i dont have all day to run zones.</p></blockquote><p>I hate the way classes are being limited they were IMO already too limited to specific functions on live but this just makes it worse.  It's not fair that tanks can only tank and nothing else that's true but making every other class unable to do more than one thing is not going to help anything.</p>

[madha]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since tanks are no longer ment to dps in group content and are only ment to be meat sheilds.</p><p>I think healers and support classes need to recive a massive dps decrease as well. I mean gawd chanters can out parse wizards and furies can to. They are expected to heal and support in groups not dps. It's time for a change, can't have just one archetype excluded from dpsign in order to provide their primary function.</p><p>This is sarcasim but is this to far off from the future?  I mean when healers are out dpsing tanks after the change, whats to come of it when tanks start complaining that they are being out dpsed by non dps classes.</p><p>I understand not wanting pure dps to be the only way tanks hold agro, but there has to be a different way to make tanks use taunts and roll in defensive stance. How about dmg from tanks cause .2% agro compaird to what they do now.</p><p>  I just dont want to see dps classes excluded from groups casue they cant pump out 8k dps every fight. Tanks where a big chunk of the groups dps and now that we are loosing alot of that stuff will take longer to die, and poor dpsers will be kicked to the curb, im not most classes im talking players.  I'll run a zone with a wizard doing 2k dps if stuff dies fast and the zone doesnt take forever, but after the changes i doubt i will, i dont have all day to run zones.</p></blockquote><p>I hate the way classes are being limited they were IMO already too limited to specific functions on live but this just makes it worse.  It's not fair that tanks can only tank and nothing else that's true but making every other class unable to do more than one thing is not going to help anything.</p></blockquote><p>Lol i totaly agree and dont want ferther nerfs to groups overall dps, but when tanks are putting out 20% -50% of a groups dps, and then have that dps cut so drasticly things are goign to change for insatances and not for the better. How many of the harder insatnces have names with rather large dps burn requirments, no real strat you just have to kill the mob before the roof hits you or before he full heals or before teh adds overwelm you.  With tanks loosing such a large chunk of dps, dps classes and healers and support classes are goign to have to fill the dps void left by the tank.. As for the people that play dps classes and are not good dpsers i feel bad for you id roll with you if the mobs are dieing but, after this change gona have to start kicking people out of pugs that dont maintain a decent dps in the zone, just dotn have time to deal with the few classes that soe allows to dps not dpsign enough to kill things.</p><p>But be on the look out for soe saying you can only do one thing in a group, and thats all you can do.  Fury doing 10k dps is going to be no more pretty soon.</p>

[Besual]

<p><cite>Detor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since tanks are no longer ment to dps in group content and are only ment to be meat sheilds.</p><p>I think healers and support classes need to recive a massive dps decrease as well.</p></blockquote><p>You know they have sprinkled nerfs here and there to everybody in this update right?  Heck, they even nerfed Praetor's Guard!  Yep, that fabled, rare, <span style="color: #ff0000;">kunark item that's over 2 years old now</span>.  Warlocks will need to cut back now with the very classes they used to be best paired with like paladins (warlocks lose their hate transfer as well, and to boot warlocks don't get the -hate that wizards do).  Support classes like enchanters got nerfed too - their TSO AA does 30% less dmg than it did before (stealth change too, imagine their surprise when they logged on test).  There's plenty of changes to spread around in this GU.</p></blockquote><p>OMG, is it already 2010? Kurnak started November 2007. Now that 2 years have passed (+2 years = Nov 2009)... wait "over 2 years"...I would say that would mean 2 months more it must be Jan 2010 now. OMG! I must have had an accident with amnesia. Can't remember on anything since Jan 2009. HEPL!!!!</p>

[Detor]

<p><cite>Besual wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Detor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Since tanks are no longer ment to dps in group content and are only ment to be meat sheilds.</p><p>I think healers and support classes need to recive a massive dps decrease as well.</p></blockquote><p>You know they have sprinkled nerfs here and there to everybody in this update right?  Heck, they even nerfed Praetor's Guard!  Yep, that fabled, rare, kunark item that's over 2 years old now<span style="color: #000000;">. </span> Warlocks will need to cut back now with the very classes they used to be best paired with like paladins (warlocks lose their hate transfer as well, and to boot warlocks don't get the -hate that wizards do).  Support classes like enchanters got nerfed too - their TSO AA does 30% less dmg than it did before (stealth change too, imagine their surprise when they logged on test).  There's plenty of changes to spread around in this GU.</p></blockquote><p>OMG, is it already 2010? Kurnak started November 2007. Now that 2 years have passed (+2 years = Nov 2009)... wait "over 2 years"...I would say that would mean 2 months more it must be Jan 2010 now. OMG! I must have had an accident with amnesia. Can't remember on anything since Jan 2009. HEPL!!!!</p></blockquote><p>Ok, you're right.  I was thinking Kunark 2007, it's 2009, 2 years.  Still - isn't it odd that THIS long later they decide that an item like that is overpowered?</p>

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p>Jupp.. groups will suffer..</p><p>I'll be asking for 5k+ dps, solo healer.. .. all my dps classes will be single target, no brawlers, no mages(except perhaps an illu). My god.. gathering groups gonna take forever... ick.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Norrsken]

<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>This is sarcasim but is this to far off from the future? </blockquote><p>Anyone that can not see that chanters are next in line for a DPS cut needs to see an optomitrist.</p></blockquote><p>But.... they're among the most recent recipients of a revamp/DPS boost!</p></blockquote><p>Yep.</p></blockquote><p>Wasnt that the case of a certain tank class too? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Captain Apple Darkberry]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>love the pic but just casue im a  dooms sayer doesnt mean it wont happen, i mean explain why healers should be able to dps <strong>while tanks cannot if they meaning to tank.</strong> Healers are intended to heal im just calling in that there will be another rebalance when tanks are at the bottum of the dps pile and healers, while still healing their group, are out parsing them. Just because tanks are suposed to be meat sheilds it doent mean they need to do bottum rung dps while holding agro, wizards can do great dps and hold agro and with good enough healers cant tank a bit, scouts are also fare tanks with good healers, so why cant tanks dps?</p></blockquote><p>I think that is the issue...  Tanks CAN dps...or tank.  The "problem", and yes some saw it as a problem, was that over the evolution of the game and increasing level caps, DPS became the ONLY way to tank.  They felt that the time had come to finally change that...   ...and given that change, I have no doubts that you will see many a <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">nerf</span> fix for every <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">non-assassin</span> class.</p><p>While I am a bit unsure of the change and the testing/balance that will be taking place as it happens, I kinda have to agree that it is needed...   ...and not just for the tanks.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I mean gawd chanters can out parse wizards and furies can to. They are expected to heal and support in groups not dps. It's time for a change, can't have just one archetype excluded from dpsign in order to provide their primary function.</p></blockquote><p>What's funny is the endline Shadow achievements for Furies are stances that allow them to boost their DPS in exchange for nerfing their healing, or boost their healing in exchange for nerfing their DPS. Kind of like how fighters can boost their DPS in exchange for nerfing their threat/defense, or boost their threat/defense in exchange for nerfing their DPS. Of course, that's not a perfect comparison because the Fury only has this after earning a lot of APs, while it's a core class mechanic for fighters.</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Enchanters, superior dps, group utility, and soloing capabilities</p></blockquote><p>tanks used to be meat sheilds and dps, and since they are only aloud to be one all other classes should be forced into one role its only fair and balanced.</p></blockquote><p>I'm itching for the day that Rogue tanking ability is stripped away completely, & replaced with better DPS, debuffs, or survivability.</p><p>I'm a DPS/Debuff Monkey. If I wanted a freekin' AA tankin' tree, I'd start a freekin' fighter.</p>

[madha]

<p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Enchanters, superior dps, group utility, and soloing capabilities</p></blockquote><p>tanks used to be meat sheilds and dps, and since they are only aloud to be one all other classes should be forced into one role its only fair and balanced.</p></blockquote><p>I'm itching for the day that Rogue tanking ability is stripped away completely, & replaced with better DPS, debuffs, or survivability.</p><p>I'm a DPS/Debuff Monkey. If I wanted a freekin' AA tankin' tree, I'd start a freekin' fighter.</p></blockquote><p>You might have to spec that aa when you can't find a fighter =P. assasin/tank lfg</p>

[madha]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I mean gawd chanters can out parse wizards and furies can to. They are expected to heal and support in groups not dps. It's time for a change, can't have just one archetype excluded from dpsign in order to provide their primary function.</p></blockquote><p>What's funny is the endline Shadow achievements for Furies are stances that allow them to boost their DPS in exchange for nerfing their healing, or boost their healing in exchange for nerfing their DPS. Kind of like how fighters can boost their DPS in exchange for nerfing their threat/defense, or boost their threat/defense in exchange for nerfing their DPS. Of course, that's not a perfect comparison because the Fury only has this after earning a lot of APs, while it's a core class mechanic for fighters.</p></blockquote><p>But i beat even with less healing you can heal pretty well in the dps healer stance.  And you can decide if you want to heal or dps, but you can still do both, or not even get that particular aa and do both pretty well. Tanks cant decide how to tank they have to be in defensive, they cant give up a little survivability and go offensive they must be in def stance, how would healers feel if they have to be in heal stance in order to even cast their heals?</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Enchanters, superior dps, group utility, and soloing capabilities</p></blockquote><p>tanks used to be meat sheilds and dps, and since they are only aloud to be one all other classes should be forced into one role its only fair and balanced.</p></blockquote><p>I'm itching for the day that Rogue tanking ability is stripped away completely, & replaced with better DPS, debuffs, or survivability.</p><p>I'm a DPS/Debuff Monkey. If I wanted a freekin' AA tankin' tree, I'd start a freekin' fighter.</p></blockquote><p>You might have to spec that aa when you can't find a fighter</p></blockquote><p>That's what soloing is for.</p>

[AziBam]

<p><cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>This is sarcasim but is this to far off from the future? </blockquote><p>Anyone that can not see that chanters are next in line for a DPS cut needs to see an optomitrist.</p></blockquote><p>But.... they're among the most recent recipients of a revamp/DPS boost!</p></blockquote><p>Yep.</p></blockquote><p>Wasnt that the case of a certain tank class too? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I know I know out of control quotes here...  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>While I actually agree with Noanni overall about the current tank changes (that they are good) keep in mind that he seems to have a very developed list of "classes that deserve to be nerfed."  In this thread and others he has repeatedly pushed for a bunch of other classes to be nerfed.  I believe his list from another thread had 10 different classes on it so just keep in mind you need to take his comments with a grain of salt.   </p><p>A solo healer (any type) in a group does not do much dps.  If they are a second healer then their dps will go up significantly (or at least it should for the one not doing primary healing).  If you are a second tank in a group not acting as the MT then your dps will still be high since you will be acting as dps in offensive stance.  If you are MT the new changes will allow the use of DEF stance and still keep aggro at once.  /smacks head  What a concept!  Woot!  Yes, I know my dps will go down when tanking.  I'm ok with that since my survival and aggro will go up.</p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I know I know out of control quotes here...  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote><p>Thats why I like to delete all but the last quote any time I think I may get quoted myself.</p><p>That list is a bit missleading. Some classes on it need to be nerfed hard, some need a slight tuning down. I also did not mention that it would possibly be easier to slightly increase the DPS of other classes instead of lowering those in that list. I also didn't mention in that post that summoners need attention, yet they clearly do.</p><p>Reguardless of all of that, chanter DPS needs to get nerfed. The class with the best single target DPS buffs in the game and the best crowd control in the game should not be able to put up 12k+ parses on single target mobs.</p><p>Anyone that thinks the fighter changes will bring all classes in line is foolish imo,but it is definatly getting them all closer to where they should be.</p>

[madha]

<p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite></cite></p></blockquote><p>I know I know out of control quotes here...  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>While I actually agree with Noanni overall about the current tank changes (that they are good) keep in mind that he seems to have a very developed list of "classes that deserve to be nerfed."  In this thread and others he has repeatedly pushed for a bunch of other classes to be nerfed.  I believe his list from another thread had 10 different classes on it so just keep in mind you need to take his comments with a grain of salt.   </p><p>A solo healer (any type) in a group does not do much dps.  If they are a second healer then their dps will go up significantly (or at least it should for the one not doing primary healing).  If you are a second tank in a group not acting as the MT then your dps will still be high since you will be acting as dps in offensive stance.  If you are MT the new changes will allow the use of DEF stance and still keep aggro at once.  /smacks head  What a concept!  Woot!  Yes, I know my dps will go down when tanking.  I'm ok with that since my survival and aggro will go up.</p></blockquote><p>Solo healing many healers will be able to out dps tanks just by auto attacking. I agree for harder content tanks should be in def stance and keep agro, but most zones have a miliion [Removed for Content] trash mobs that are just in the way of loot, and you want to kill them fast and get on with the named.  Tanks should be aloud the option of sacrifising survivability for dps, but still maintain agro, the total turning off of taunts is silly. if im in offensive or defensive stance me making fun of your mother is still going to make you want to kill me. I understand tanks DPS is abit out of hand with SK's parsing 10k in groups, but thats another issue. Tanks need options and the ability to decide how they want to play. </p><p>But to my original point dont be surprised if the day after the update every tank in game is complaingign that a 2 boxed dirge just auto atacking is doing 2x's their dps becasue they are only getting a 20% hit rate in Deff stance.  Taunts dont kill mobs dps kills mobs and it would be nice if everyone contributed.</p>

[Windowlicker]

<p>This is really all quite simple:</p><p><strong>If fighters can DPS?</strong></p><p>- Where is my Warlocks ability to tank?  I should have a "Tanking mode". </p><p><strong>If support classes can DPS?</strong></p><p>- Where is my Warlocks utility?  It should be on-par at the very least.</p><p><strong>If healers can DPS?</strong></p><p>- Where are my Warlock heals?</p><p>If your not prepared to change the fact that DPS-centered classes aren't doing signifigantly more dps then non-dps classes, you will need to provide us with the benefits the other classes have through survivability, utlity, and healing.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A solo healer (any type) in a group does not do much dps. If they are a second healer then their dps will go up significantly (or at least it should for the one not doing primary healing).</p></blockquote><p>It depends. I've run with Furies who can solo heal Nu'Roga <em>and </em>put out over 3K DPS on the parse. While that's not a Wizard or an Assassin, it's also more than "not much" damage. Of course, that also depends on the tank being durable enough so that the healer doesn't have to spam just to keep him standing.</p>

[madha]

<p><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This is really all quite simple:</p><p><strong>If fighters can DPS?</strong></p><p>- Where is my Warlocks ability to tank?  I should have a "Tanking mode". </p><p><strong>If support classes can DPS?</strong></p><p>- Where is my Warlocks utility?  It should be on-par at the very least.</p><p><strong>If healers can DPS?</strong></p><p>- Where are my Warlock heals?</p><p>If your not prepared to change the fact that DPS-centered classes aren't doing signifigantly more dps then non-dps classes, you will need to provide us with the benefits the other classes have through survivability, utlity, and healing.</p></blockquote><p>Warlock can hold agro as well as a tank and according to soe thats all a tank is suposed to do. So there you go dps and agro managment =P.  But you didnt start your toon with the desire to tank did you? Tanks have been able to do decent dps in group encounters since the beginging of the game . pegion holing them into meatsheild just invalidates every tank. You wont see pally or sk or monk lfg anymore ull just see meat sheild what diffeerence does the type of tank make, when all their dps while in groups will be pitiful. </p><p>I allways considered it a good sign when i could tank a zone in offensive with a 2 hander ment the group was rocking the zone and healers where awsome, the zones would take no time to finish. But now sword and sheild in defensive just taunting, its going to get very boring very fast when no matter how hard i try or how well i time my attacks ill be lucky to see 2k zonewide dps.  Why give tanks swords? they arnt used for dps anymore, just give me 2 sheilds if you want me to just be a meat sheild.</p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Warlock can hold agro as well as a tank and according to soe thats all a tank is suposed to do.</blockquote><p>I think you will find the words *and not die* in there somewhere.</p>

[madha]

<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Warlock can hold agro as well as a tank and according to soe thats all a tank is suposed to do.</blockquote><p>I think you will find the words *and not die* in there somewhere.</p></blockquote><p>all in the healers. Only way tanks stay alive too.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tanks have been able to do decent dps in group encounters since the beginging of the game . pegion holing them into meatsheild just invalidates every tank.</p></blockquote><p>These changes weren't brought about because tanks were doing "decent DPS" in groups. It's because they were doing a lot of damage, at or near the top of the parse, while also tanking. The argument goes that right now, plate tanks have the best of all worlds: high defense, high survivability and high damage output by being able to tank in offensive stance with very little penalty. Of course, the justification was that they need that DPS output in order to hold aggro. That changes in GU51 and fighters will have to choose a role; they can't have their cake and eat it too.</p><p>Edit: As others have pointed out, the real problem with the current implementation is how it affects OTs, not MTs. The OT is the one that has to switch roles, depending on what's happening in the raid, and the cooldown on stance changes has made that more complicated.</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Warlock can hold agro as well as a tank and according to soe thats all a tank is suposed to do.</blockquote><p>I think you will find the words *and not die* in there somewhere.</p></blockquote><p>all in the healers. Only way tanks stay alive too.</p></blockquote><p>Surely you're not going to claim -- or even imply -- that a healer can keep a Warlock alive as easily as he/she can a tank, especially in any kind of challenging content?</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the cooldown on stance changes has made that more complicated.</p></blockquote><p>I haven't seen, but does that cooldown on stance changes apply to all classes that have stances?</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I haven't seen, but does that cooldown on stance changes apply to all classes that have stances?</p></blockquote><p>AFAIK, this only affects the Fighter classes, not Scouts.</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I haven't seen, but does that cooldown on stance changes apply to all classes that have stances?</p></blockquote><p>AFAIK, this only affects the Fighter classes, not Scouts.</p></blockquote><p>O, how very interesting. I can "stance dance" without a cooldown, but Fighters can't.</p><p>That will be changed (as will many of the rest of our abilities) & I'm guessing the reason Aeralik hasn't answered is that he currently has no idea what he's going to do with Scouts. I can't help feeling quite pessimistic about the next few months <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>