False Assumptions for Brawler Def-Stances [Archive]

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baka-neko

01-24-2009, 10:38 AM

As part of the changes introduced with GU51 the Brawlers auto-hate-generation-spells, Dragon-Stance-Line for Monks, Roughhouse-Line for Bruisers, got merged into the defensive stances. This is a good change if you assume that tanking should be done in defensive stance only.But there is a flaw. These Spells both have a chance to proc extra hate on a successful melee-hit. The counterpart spells for the Mitigation-Tanks (aka Plate-Tanks) generate extra hate when they get hit.But as tanking should now occur only while you're in def-stance the extra-hate-on-hit will happen a lot less then it could before. (Remember, we're Avoidance-Tanks, not DPS-Tanks as often stated)A possible solution to this would be changing the spell to proc on a successful avoid.Those mechanics are alredy ingame as there are quite some items that proc on a successful parry/block/riposte/etc.Btw, the Bruisers Bodyguard proc percentage is wrong, should be a lot more often than 1.8 times per minute (Roughhouse has been 25%).--- Zakkra

Gungo

01-24-2009, 01:07 PM

I dont agree. I hit more then i avoid, unless its a large pull like Guk 3.

Novusod

01-24-2009, 01:16 PM

Bruisers have always had problems generating hate on successfull avoidance checks. The more a bruiser avoids the more problems the bruiser will have with geting hate. Getting some hate generationg procs off of avoiding hits had been something bruisers have been /feedback for years.

Cusashorn

01-24-2009, 01:54 PM

What they should do is just change the agro proc to proc on every hit, Guaranteed. no chances to do so, but a full out guarantee.

circusgirl

01-24-2009, 06:29 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but dragon stance is now a "procs x times per minute" on our defensive stance, isn't it? Doesn't that mean it'll proc despite our lower to-hit rates in defensive?

circusgirl

01-24-2009, 06:31 PM

Also, as an aside, I don't know that people have really thought out this whole proccing hate on avoidance check idea. I see it argued all over the place, but frankly, if that was the mechanic, we would be completely ineffective on higher level mobs, which send our avoidance down the tube. It would make monks useless on raids, or even on the harder instances. The current mechanic is better for us.

pasword

01-24-2009, 06:49 PM

<cite>deleted</cite>

Morrolan V

01-24-2009, 06:51 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, as an aside, I don't know that people have really thought out this whole proccing hate on avoidance check idea. I see it argued all over the place, but frankly, if that was the mechanic, we would be completely ineffective on higher level mobs, which send our avoidance down the tube. It would make monks useless on raids, or even on the harder instances. The current mechanic is better for us.</blockquote>QFE - Vinka is exactly right.As to the actual number of procs you get at lower hit rates, my parsing indicates that "x times per minute" procs are normalized for actual weapon speed but NOT for hit rates. That means that, if something would proc IF you hit, but you miss, then you lose that proc forever. Another way of saying it is that something that procs 10 times per minute if you hit will only proc 7 times per minute if your hit rate is 70%.

Couching

01-24-2009, 07:02 PM

When I am in defensive, my hit rate on named in raid is only 40% and my dps is horrible.My dps is only 2k-3k on Gynok in defensive and MT is only 1.5k-2k.It's silly and ridiculous that we get a 0.5 mutipler on defensive on test server just because fighter dps is too high in tanking.On test server, monk aggression is 2nd lowest over all fighters.With such low hit rate, high resist rate on taunt and horrible dps in defensive, we are screwed in holding agro in raid.

Morrolan V

01-24-2009, 07:57 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I am in defensive, my hit rate on named in raid is only 40% and my dps is horrible.My dps is only 2k-3k on Gynok in defensive and MT is only 1.5k-2k.It's silly and ridiculous that we get a 0.5 mutipler on defensive on test server just because fighter dps is too high in tanking.On test server, monk aggression is 2nd lowest over all fighters.With such low hit rate, high resist rate on taunt and horrible dps in defensive, we are screwed in holding agro in raid.</blockquote>Yup. I have reached the same conclusions.

BChizzle

01-25-2009, 04:02 PM

Morrolan V

01-25-2009, 05:05 PM

I agree that 40% hit rate is too low.But 70% avoidance is too high.As an example, I tanked the librarians in Ferzhul last night -I have Master I Crouching Tiger, max AA to increase minimum deflection, etc. Had a dirge, fury and coercer in group. My avoidance value was 19,782, which read out as 88.7% vs. level 80.The actual avoidance report indicates as follows:deflect 115/482 (23.86%)dodge 38/482 (7.88%)miss 24/482 (4.98%)parry 20/482 (4.15%)riposte 43/482 (8.92%)Add it all up for 49.79% of all attacks avoided. And those are heroics, not raid mobs.

BChizzle

01-25-2009, 05:11 PM

<cite>Morrolan V wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that 40% hit rate is too low.But 70% avoidance is too high.As an example, I tanked the librarians in Ferzhul last night -I have Master I Crouching Tiger, max AA to increase minimum deflection, etc. Had a dirge, fury and coercer in group. My avoidance value was 19,782, which read out as 88.7% vs. level 80.The actual avoidance report indicates as follows:deflect 115/482 (23.86%)dodge 38/482 (7.88%)miss 24/482 (4.98%)parry 20/482 (4.15%)riposte 43/482 (8.92%)Add it all up for 49.79% of all attacks avoided. And those are heroics, not raid mobs.</blockquote>Considering your gear that seems about right in line with what I said.

Morrolan V

01-25-2009, 08:21 PM

I assume you're going by the gear on EQ2Players, which is my DPS gear. Two thirds of what I was wearing during the fight is different. I was also using avoidance food and drink.If you're suggesting that you can get to 70% actual avoidance against raid mobs, please let me know the gear and post the reports.(Also note, that the actual amount of damage avoided was higher, due to stoneskins and the templar's shield ally.)

Siatfallen

01-25-2009, 09:01 PM

Pulling up logs on Xebnok, I was sitting at 72% avoidance. That's including avoidance check passed by other people for me (shield ally etc); of course, Xebnok is a strange fight, because you have to deal with a charm effect and hence cannot have one tank hold him all the time.

Couching

01-25-2009, 09:08 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I am in defensive, my hit rate on named in raid is only 40% and my dps is horrible.My dps is only 2k-3k on Gynok in defensive and MT is only 1.5k-2k.It's silly and ridiculous that we get a 0.5 mutipler on defensive on test server just because fighter dps is too high in tanking.On test server, monk aggression is 2nd lowest over all fighters.With such low hit rate, high resist rate on taunt and horrible dps in defensive, we are screwed in holding agro in raid.</blockquote>I hit for 74% on Gynok in full defensive spec, sorry but 40% is just a rediculous number to throw out there. As far as avoidance goes on even the toughest end game raid mob a good brawler is going to avoid at least 60-70% not counting stoneskins and other stuff.</blockquote>It's auto attack hit rate. It's not CA hit rate.I doubt you have 74% hit rate on melee attack.Ps: this thread is about dragon rage and it procs on successful melee attack, that's why i don't bother to post CA hit rate.

BChizzle

01-25-2009, 09:20 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I am in defensive, my hit rate on named in raid is only 40% and my dps is horrible.My dps is only 2k-3k on Gynok in defensive and MT is only 1.5k-2k.It's silly and ridiculous that we get a 0.5 mutipler on defensive on test server just because fighter dps is too high in tanking.On test server, monk aggression is 2nd lowest over all fighters.With such low hit rate, high resist rate on taunt and horrible dps in defensive, we are screwed in holding agro in raid.</blockquote>I hit for 74% on Gynok in full defensive spec, sorry but 40% is just a rediculous number to throw out there. As far as avoidance goes on even the toughest end game raid mob a good brawler is going to avoid at least 60-70% not counting stoneskins and other stuff.</blockquote>It's auto attack hit rate. It's not CA hit rate.I doubt you have 74% hit rate on melee attack.</blockquote>Auto attack was 60% its still not 40%.

Couching

01-25-2009, 09:23 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I am in defensive, my hit rate on named in raid is only 40% and my dps is horrible.My dps is only 2k-3k on Gynok in defensive and MT is only 1.5k-2k.It's silly and ridiculous that we get a 0.5 mutipler on defensive on test server just because fighter dps is too high in tanking.On test server, monk aggression is 2nd lowest over all fighters.With such low hit rate, high resist rate on taunt and horrible dps in defensive, we are screwed in holding agro in raid.</blockquote>I hit for 74% on Gynok in full defensive spec, sorry but 40% is just a rediculous number to throw out there. As far as avoidance goes on even the toughest end game raid mob a good brawler is going to avoid at least 60-70% not counting stoneskins and other stuff.</blockquote>It's auto attack hit rate. It's not CA hit rate.I doubt you have 74% hit rate on melee attack.</blockquote>Auto attack was 60% its still not 40%.</blockquote>I got killed twice by touch of death. Rev sickness might be the reason why I have lower melee hit rate than yours.

BChizzle

01-25-2009, 09:50 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I am in defensive, my hit rate on named in raid is only 40% and my dps is horrible.My dps is only 2k-3k on Gynok in defensive and MT is only 1.5k-2k.It's silly and ridiculous that we get a 0.5 mutipler on defensive on test server just because fighter dps is too high in tanking.On test server, monk aggression is 2nd lowest over all fighters.With such low hit rate, high resist rate on taunt and horrible dps in defensive, we are screwed in holding agro in raid.</blockquote>I hit for 74% on Gynok in full defensive spec, sorry but 40% is just a rediculous number to throw out there. As far as avoidance goes on even the toughest end game raid mob a good brawler is going to avoid at least 60-70% not counting stoneskins and other stuff.</blockquote>It's auto attack hit rate. It's not CA hit rate.I doubt you have 74% hit rate on melee attack.</blockquote>Auto attack was 60% its still not 40%.</blockquote>I got killed twice by touch of death. Rev sickness might be the reason why I have lower melee hit rate than yours.</blockquote>Well if you got killed twice then you arent having issues pulling agro. With current mechanics and no hate transfer I can grab him whenever I need.

Junaru

01-26-2009, 11:01 AM

Regardless the double negative effect on defencive stance is uncalled for. While you two might not have issues with hit rate this does effect tanks that might not have access to + c/s/p items to raise their skill while in defencive stance. For years defencive stance has a negative to it to ofset the gain of defence. Now SOE does nothing but merge existing skills into it and add another negative. There is no longer a need to the -c/s/p and it should be removed.

Couching

01-27-2009, 05:24 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I am in defensive, my hit rate on named in raid is only 40% and my dps is horrible.My dps is only 2k-3k on Gynok in defensive and MT is only 1.5k-2k.It's silly and ridiculous that we get a 0.5 mutipler on defensive on test server just because fighter dps is too high in tanking.On test server, monk aggression is 2nd lowest over all fighters.With such low hit rate, high resist rate on taunt and horrible dps in defensive, we are screwed in holding agro in raid.</blockquote>I hit for 74% on Gynok in full defensive spec, sorry but 40% is just a rediculous number to throw out there. As far as avoidance goes on even the toughest end game raid mob a good brawler is going to avoid at least 60-70% not counting stoneskins and other stuff.</blockquote>It's auto attack hit rate. It's not CA hit rate.I doubt you have 74% hit rate on melee attack.</blockquote>Auto attack was 60% its still not 40%.</blockquote>Today, we killed Gynok and it's a perfect pull. MT and I didn't die. We pulled agro with each whenever who was low on hp or got touch of death debuff .After checking ACT, my melee hit rate was only 48%. Ya, better than 40% when I got killed twice last time.For your number, 60%, I really doubt it.Maybe, the rasaon is becasuse we didn't have a brig in raid so Gynok wasn't fully debuffed.Or maybe you were on adds rather than Gynok. I was on gynok all the time.Guild SK melee hit rate was 63% and he was off tanking on adds all the time.

Terron

01-27-2009, 08:48 AM

<cite>baka-neko wrote:</cite><blockquote>But there is a flaw. These Spells both have a chance to proc extra hate on a successful melee-hit. The counterpart spells for the Mitigation-Tanks (aka Plate-Tanks) generate extra hate when they get hit.But as tanking should now occur only while you're in def-stance the extra-hate-on-hit will happen a lot less then it could before. (Remember, we're Avoidance-Tanks, not DPS-Tanks as often stated)</blockquote>Brawlers hit less often and thus generate less hate when in defensive.Warriors get hit less often and thus generate less hate when in defensive.All fighters could generate more hate by being in offensive stance before. It is not a special problem for brawlers that the skill modification in defensive works against hate generation. It was a trade - better survivability vs better aggro control. This update will remove that choice for all fighters. Brawlers are not being specially penalized in this area.

Appollyon

01-27-2009, 09:07 AM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers hit less often and thus generate less hate when in defensive.Warriors get hit less often and thus generate less hate when in defensive.</blockquote>Please explain to me how Warriors get hit less often in defensive? I could sware warriors have low avoidance to start with and your defensive doesnt give you more avoidance but more mitigation. Brawlers are the avoidance tank and we rely on being able to hit the mob to make hate not like a warrior to generates hate from getting attack and hitting the mob. (I know paladins dont generate passive hate).