Paladin Heals and Wards

[Kordran]

<p>According to the patch notes, Paladins are supposed to generate additional threat when healing. However, on test there is no evidence that this is actually happening. Nothing shows in the logs as to any threat being generated when we cast a heal. Now, this may be a side-effect of threat gain not being logged at all for heals, but right now there's no way to know what "additional threat" may or may not be generated.</p><p>As a related issue, are our wards supposed to generate additional threat as well? And is there any chance that the ward could actually be increased in value? 1800 points or thereabouts is nothing, it's usually not even a single hit from a T8 named in an instance. At least doubling the value would make it more useful.</p>

[Mentalep]

<p>So... is this only in defensive stance, or what?  If the paladin is not actually tanking but instead is helping the main healer, or if they're healing themselves because they pulled aggro and took damage, they won't want that extra threat.</p>

[Raidyen]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>According to the patch notes, Paladins are supposed to generate additional threat when healing. However, on test there is no evidence that this is actually happening. Nothing shows in the logs as to any threat being generated when we cast a heal. Now, this may be a side-effect of threat gain not being logged at all for heals, but right now there's no way to know what "additional threat" may or may not be generated.</p><p>As a related issue, are our wards supposed to generate additional threat as well? And is there any chance that the ward could actually be increased in value? 1800 points or thereabouts is nothing, it's usually not even a single hit from a T8 named in an instance. At least doubling the value would make it more useful.</p></blockquote><p>Nope, doesnt look like the heals are doing anything.  If there is hate attached, it needs to be parseable.</p><p>And I am sorry, but a good paladin can rock a heal parse as it is, and they can do it while they are tanking, putting up DPS, and maintaining agro.  My guild is running some TSO instances with no healer, just a paladin as our main tank, 4 DPS, and a utility/power regen.   Give our guild pally more healing, heh, never need a healer for anything but raids.</p>

[Tandy]

<p><cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>According to the patch notes, Paladins are supposed to generate additional threat when healing. However, on test there is no evidence that this is actually happening. Nothing shows in the logs as to any threat being generated when we cast a heal. Now, this may be a side-effect of threat gain not being logged at all for heals, but right now there's no way to know what "additional threat" may or may not be generated.</p><p>As a related issue, are our wards supposed to generate additional threat as well? And is there any chance that the ward could actually be increased in value? 1800 points or thereabouts is nothing, it's usually not even a single hit from a T8 named in an instance. At least doubling the value would make it more useful.</p></blockquote><p>Nope, doesnt look like the heals are doing anything.  I there is hate attached, it needs to be parseable.</p><p>And I am sorry, but a good paladin can rock a heal parse as it is, and they can do it while they are tanking, putting up DPS, and maintaining agro.  My guild is running some TSO instances with no healer, just a paladin as our main tank, 4 DPS, and a utility/power regen.   Give our guild pally more healing, heh, never need a healer for anything but raids.</p></blockquote><p>Heals by their nature dont report hate, so I highly doubt the threat increase on pally heals is parsable.</p><p>I doubt there is any way TO get it to be parsable either. But at very least hopefully they add some text to the heals themselves showing "10% greater threat or 20% greater threat" or something of that nature so you at least KNOW.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And I am sorry, but a good paladin can rock a heal parse as it is, and they can do it while they are tanking, putting up DPS, and maintaining agro. My guild is running some TSO instances with no healer, just a paladin as our main tank, 4 DPS, and a utility/power regen. Give our guild pally more healing, heh, never need a healer for anything but raids.</p></blockquote><p>If you'll read what I said, I wasn't asking for boosts to the heal spells, only the ward. Because any way you look at it, a 1.8K ward is a joke in TSO instances. And as far as "rocking the heal parse" goes, you must have some seriously slacking healers. So you're telling me you're running through PoF with just a Paladin healing, and he's putting out the 3+ million needed to heal the zone? Bull*cough*it.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Tandy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I doubt there is any way TO get it to be parsable either. But at very least hopefully they add some text to the heals themselves showing "10% greater threat or 20% greater threat" or something of that nature so you at least KNOW.</p></blockquote><p>Sure there's a way to make it parsable. Heals generate some percentage of their value of hate, and that should be fully loggable. Here's an example of what happens now when a Paladin heals themselves:</p><p><span style="font-family: courier new,courier;">(1232644648)[Thu Jan 22 09:17:28 2009] YOUR Holy Aid heals YOU for 1177 hit points.(123264464</span><span style="font-family: courier new,courier;">8)[</span><span style="font-family: courier new,courier;">Thu Jan 22 09:17:28 2009] You receive blessed aid.</span></p><p>Let's say that they changed the Paladin heals to a 1.5 multiplier (this is just as an example, I'm not saying that they did this). This is how that heal could be logged:</p><p><span style="font-family: courier new,courier;">(123264464</span><span style="font-family: courier new,courier;">8)</span><span style="font-family: courier new,courier;">[Thu Jan 22 09:17:28 2009] YOUR Holy Aid heals YOU for 1177 hit points.(1232644648)[Thu Jan 22 09:17:28 2009] YOUR Holy Aid increases YOUR hate with a Yha-lei netman by 1766 threat (1232644648)[Thu Jan 22 09:17:28 2009] You receive blessed aid.</span></p><p>Simple, straight-forward and can parsed just like all other threat increases.</p>

[Aeralik]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>According to the patch notes, Paladins are supposed to generate additional threat when healing. However, on test there is no evidence that this is actually happening. Nothing shows in the logs as to any threat being generated when we cast a heal. Now, this may be a side-effect of threat gain not being logged at all for heals, but right now there's no way to know what "additional threat" may or may not be generated.</p><p>As a related issue, are our wards supposed to generate additional threat as well? And is there any chance that the ward could actually be increased in value? 1800 points or thereabouts is nothing, it's usually not even a single hit from a T8 named in an instance. At least doubling the value would make it more useful.</p></blockquote><p>You won't see threat with this just like a normal heal doesnt say added X threat.  The base hate amount of the spell though was tripled over what it was in the past.</p>

[madha]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>According to the patch notes, Paladins are supposed to generate additional threat when healing. However, on test there is no evidence that this is actually happening. Nothing shows in the logs as to any threat being generated when we cast a heal. Now, this may be a side-effect of threat gain not being logged at all for heals, but right now there's no way to know what "additional threat" may or may not be generated.</p><p>As a related issue, are our wards supposed to generate additional threat as well? And is there any chance that the ward could actually be increased in value? 1800 points or thereabouts is nothing, it's usually not even a single hit from a T8 named in an instance. At least doubling the value would make it more useful.</p></blockquote><p>You won't see threat with this just like a normal heal doesnt say added X threat.  The base hate amount of the spell though was tripled over what it was in the past.</p></blockquote><p>ok will the threat meter see the hate from heals then? and can act parse the hate from heals. and since heal agro by nature is encounter based are you going to remove the pally group taunt? cause pally have alot of heals and can now be used as group taunts, and take them out of the single target tank pigion hole you want to stick them in.  Oh and make the lay on hands t8 upgrade a % base i mean how long is that fix going to take, our lay on hands is weeker then the monk heal, and pally are healers in plate with taunts now.</p>

[Dominiti]

<p>why cant you just simply state the amount of hate heals will generate for all we know you bumped it up from 1 to 3......</p>

[Glerin]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>According to the patch notes, Paladins are supposed to generate additional threat when healing. However, on test there is no evidence that this is actually happening. Nothing shows in the logs as to any threat being generated when we cast a heal. Now, this may be a side-effect of threat gain not being logged at all for heals, but right now there's no way to know what "additional threat" may or may not be generated.</p><p>As a related issue, are our wards supposed to generate additional threat as well? And is there any chance that the ward could actually be increased in value? 1800 points or thereabouts is nothing, it's usually not even a single hit from a T8 named in an instance. At least doubling the value would make it more useful.</p></blockquote><p>You won't see threat with this just like a normal heal doesnt say added X threat.  The base hate amount of the spell though was tripled over what it was in the past.</p></blockquote><p>so basically we got a few new semi-taunts that we have no idea how much aggro they generate so we're unsure if it's really worth using them over what they used to be? that's actually -almost- helpful!</p>

[Tandy]

<p>Seriously heals never ever showed hate before. why does everyone expect them to now? Yes its kinda bad they dont...but its not like its something new to get worked up over.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You won't see threat with this just like a normal heal doesnt say added X threat. The base hate amount of the spell though was tripled over what it was in the past.</p></blockquote><p>Is there any chance that you could actually address this? It would be useful, not only for Paladins, but for other healers to know how much threat they're generating. If you're going to make threat transparent, why not go the whole way and make all threat increases visible, rather than have some that are logged, and others still obscured?</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You won't see threat with this just like a normal heal doesnt say added X threat. The base hate amount of the spell though was tripled over what it was in the past.</p></blockquote><p>Is there any chance that you could actually address this? It would be useful, not only for Paladins, but for other healers to know how much threat they're generating. <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you're going to make threat transparent, why not go the whole way and make all threat increases visible</span></strong>, rather than have some that are logged, and others still obscured?</p></blockquote><p>I'd dearly love it if SOE would "go the whole way" with this Hate patch, but sadly, they seem to prefer doing it in half-steps.</p><p>I'm not sure how much use the vaunted "hate meter" window is going to be to Healers, if they can't measure their own threat.</p>

[flowercivicsi]

<p>I would love to test this, but since I have had a copy request in for about a month or so I would like to ask a healer to please make sure that they coded this properly so we are not going to get smashed in the face because we are doing our job. </p><p>I understand this was just for paladins, but needless to say I want to be sure this coding did not mess with what healers can generate with their wards/heals. </p>

[Bruener]

<p>Here is an issue that is going to be brought up with this whole increasing threat of heals.  SOE is trying to make Paladins single target tanks competing with Guardians on this level and yet they change this and guess what healing is going to affect the threat of the tank with all mobs that are in encounter.  Are Paladins going to be focused AE tanks again than, or single target tanks?  Or are you finally throwing the idea of single target v. AE tanks out the window.</p><p>Also, please explain the hate value that heals have.  A long time ago it was posted that 1 point of damage = 1 point of hate, and 1 point of heal = .5 point of hate.  So if Paladins are getting their hate from heals and wards tripled that means for every point of health they heal or ward it will give them 1.5 points of hate...that is going to be a serious increase to hate.  So is this value of hate-to-heal ratio correct?  This leads back to the original statement I had, which is with the amount of hate a heal can produce, and if these are affecting all mobs that are in combat....suddenly Paladin AE tanking is going to be the best again.</p><p>Can we please get a final say on how much healing and dps'ing increases hate.  We need a point to point value.</p>

[Anurra]

<p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You won't see threat with this just like a normal heal doesnt say added X threat. The base hate amount of the spell though was tripled over what it was in the past.</p></blockquote><p>Is there any chance that you could actually address this? It would be useful, not only for Paladins, but for other healers to know how much threat they're generating. <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you're going to make threat transparent, why not go the whole way and make all threat increases visible</span></strong>, rather than have some that are logged, and others still obscured?</p></blockquote><p>I'd dearly love it if SOE would "go the whole way" with this Hate patch, but sadly, they seem to prefer doing it in half-steps.</p><p>I'm not sure how much use the vaunted "hate meter" window is going to be to Healers, if they can't measure their own threat.</p></blockquote><p><strong>QFE for BOTH posts!</strong></p>

[madha]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here is an issue that is going to be brought up with this whole increasing threat of heals.  SOE is trying to make Paladins single target tanks competing with Guardians on this level and yet they change this and guess what healing is going to affect the threat of the tank with all mobs that are in encounter.  Are Paladins going to be focused AE tanks again than, or single target tanks?  Or are you finally throwing the idea of single target v. AE tanks out the window.</p><p>Also, please explain the hate value that heals have.  A long time ago it was posted that 1 point of damage = 1 point of hate, and 1 point of heal = .5 point of hate.  So if Paladins are getting their hate from heals and wards tripled that means for every point of health they heal or ward it will give them 1.5 points of hate...that is going to be a serious increase to hate.  So is this value of hate-to-heal ratio correct?  This leads back to the original statement I had, which is with the amount of hate a heal can produce, and if these are affecting all mobs that are in combat....suddenly Paladin AE tanking is going to be the best again.</p><p>Can we please get a final say on how much healing and dps'ing increases hate.  We need a point to point value.</p></blockquote><p>IF so prewarding will be almost 3k encounter hate when cast prepull. nice chunk of hate if you crit your ward. and good for those mobs that stun on pull.</p><p>Also the pally aa ability to cure dots and debuffs, generates ae hate too and the hate stacks with the amount of dots you remove so let you healers not cure and self  cure about 5 dots from you = mucho ae agro. So much for single target tank.</p><p>Its very plain to see that the single target group target tank idea is not going to work leave it how it is with guards being the best single target tank but let them be the only one pigion holed into that roll</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also the pally aa ability to cure dots and debuffs, generates ae hate too and the hate stacks with the amount of dots you remove so let you healers not cure and self cure about 5 dots from you = mucho ae agro. So much for single target tank.</p><p>Its very plain to see that the single target group target tank idea is not going to work leave it how it is with guards being the best single target tank but let them be the only one pigion holed into that roll</p></blockquote><p>Honestly, even with the hate increase (which is something that actually may make healing a useful part of a Paladin's standard spell rotation) it's not going to amount to what was lost with Amends. Pre-warding, at most, would generate around 3K or so hate; if only the Paladin is stunned on the body pull, and casters start winding up, the end result is going to be the same.</p><p>As to the issue of single-target vs. multi-target, the design changes have still heavily slanted things towards single targets for the Paladin. It's almost like Paladins are a "hybrid hate" class, with a principal focus on single targets, but still a high level of functionality against multiple targets. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing; this could end up being the "niche" that Paladins fulfill, sacrificing damage and some degree of survivability (compared to Guardians) in exchange for more versatility. It'd be interesting to know if that's something Aeralik has had in mind, or it's just become a natural outgrowth from the changes being made.</p>

[Theren]

<p>I think that the whole AE vs. Single Target plan should have gone a completely different route.</p><p>Guards - SingleSk's - SingleMonk - SingleZerker - AEPally - AEBruiser - AE</p><p>Seems like before the SK changes hit they would be perfect with some a survivability boost to be a single tank. Pallies and Zerkers were the kings of AE. And the whole Brawler side of it seems right, monk kills one thing while a bruiser messes up every one around.</p><p>But this obviously didn't happen.And I'd have to agree with a previous post DO NOT force Pallies into single target role. It's just not the smartest thing to do with em.</p><p>Oh btw thanks for Parry on the D-Stance.</p><p>Edit: to get back on topic - I love the idea of heals producing more hate, but it would be VERY GOOD to be able to see exactly what kind of numbers of threat the heals are adding.</p>

[Kiljoi]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>According to the patch notes, Paladins are supposed to generate additional threat when healing. However, on test there is no evidence that this is actually happening. Nothing shows in the logs as to any threat being generated when we cast a heal. Now, this may be a side-effect of threat gain not being logged at all for heals, but right now there's no way to know what "additional threat" may or may not be generated.</p><p>As a related issue, are our wards supposed to generate additional threat as well? And is there any chance that the ward could actually be increased in value? 1800 points or thereabouts is nothing, it's usually not even a single hit from a T8 named in an instance. At least doubling the value would make it more useful.</p></blockquote><p>You won't see threat with this just like a normal heal doesnt say added X threat.  The base hate amount of the spell though was tripled over what it was in the past.</p></blockquote><p>transparency please.</p>

[Norrsken]

<p><cite>Theren@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think that the whole AE vs. Single Target plan should have gone a completely different route.</p><p>Guards - SingleSk's - SingleMonk - SingleZerker - AEPally - AEBruiser - AE</p><p>Seems like before the SK changes hit they would be perfect with some a survivability boost to be a single tank. Pallies and Zerkers were the kings of AE. And the whole Brawler side of it seems right, monk kills one thing while a bruiser messes up every one around.</p><p>But this obviously didn't happen.And I'd have to agree with a previous post DO NOT force Pallies into single target role. It's just not the smartest thing to do with em.</p><p>Oh btw thanks for Parry on the D-Stance.</p><p>Edit: to get back on topic - I love the idea of heals producing more hate, but it would be VERY GOOD to be able to see exactly what kind of numbers of threat the heals are adding.</p></blockquote><p>then you didnt know the SK very well. We were always pretty much more into AE hate than single target.</p>

[Praytus]

<p>I've played with this for a while on test, and it appears the hate generated from the heals and wards are no more and sometimes less then just casting a CA/Spell, though at a much longer cast time. As it stands, this isn't very useful. The recast time on our heal/ward is fine, but the overall casting time needs to be adjusted to a much faster cast or the hate increase needs to be adjusted upwards.</p>

[Raidyen]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And I am sorry, but a good paladin can rock a heal parse as it is, and they can do it while they are tanking, putting up DPS, and maintaining agro. My guild is running some TSO instances with no healer, just a paladin as our main tank, 4 DPS, and a utility/power regen. Give our guild pally more healing, heh, never need a healer for anything but raids.</p></blockquote><p>If you'll read what I said, I wasn't asking for boosts to the heal spells, only the ward. Because any way you look at it, a 1.8K ward is a joke in TSO instances. And as far as "rocking the heal parse" goes, you must have some seriously slacking healers. So you're telling me you're running through PoF with just a Paladin healing, and he's putting out the 3+ million needed to heal the zone? Bull*cough*it.</p></blockquote><p>Hmm, first of all, a ward is a form a heal, so yes, your asking for a boost to paladins healing.  Second of all, if you'll read what I said, "my guild is running SOME TSO instances with no healer."  We can run 6 of the easier TSO dungeons with just our pally.  I promise you, no other tank in the game could do that.  So no, IMO paladins don't need any more healing. </p><p>The hate attached to the heals is not supposed to replace a taunt.  It is just supposed to make it so that casting a heal spell equals the same amount of hate that a SK gets by casting a lifetap, or a Gaurd/Zerker using a DPS combat art.</p>