Getting denied groups as a Troubador to make way for Dirges/Enchanters... [Archive]

Aldelbert

01-20-2009, 02:26 AM

Here's the deal: I'm 185AA with both end line abilities in my Shadows line maxed out. I have some VP gear, my epic (not mythical), and a mix of other fabled and legendary. I pull about 2.5-3.5k on average on single targets and about 1.5k-2.5k on big multi-mob encounters. I play my class to the best I can possibly do with a Jcap roatation, Maestro, running the songs the group wants, occasionally charming/mezzing on messy pulls or what not. I do not consider myself a bad player in the slightest. I am in a raid guild and I do not have a bad reputation as a player.With that, why is it so [Removed for Content] hard lately for Troubadors to find a group for heroic content? Everytime I send a tell to a group LF a bard, apparently Troubadors don't count because everyone wants a [Removed for Content] Dirge. If I try to fill a group's request for utility, I get shut down because enchanters fill that role, provide more dps, and have PoM. My troubador is practically shelved except for raiding where my guild hopes to get my mythical soon so I'll be "useful."This seriously how you planned this class out SoE? To be only be actually wanted if they're packing a mythical to a raid force and that's it? I've watched back to back Lord of the Rings movies and not seen one tell pop on my screen once while I had a LFG macro going with my LFG tag up. Have we really become this worthless to players that when I respond to a group asking for a bard that we don't count as a God [Removed for Content] bard anymore!?And now between GU51 to GU52, we're probably going to have to wait at least 4 months to even be looked at which is a big if....

Rynir

01-20-2009, 02:29 AM

Look on the bright side... You are still infront of summoners on the priority list. =P

Althena

01-20-2009, 02:30 AM

Either:1. You suck2. People on your server suck.I'm inclined to think the latter because on Kithikor people have no problem grouping troubs - and honestly if you are in as good a guild as you imply why the hell would you bother with pick up groups?3rd option? You're just whining trying to get others nerfed to make yourself feel better and making up this "i cant get a group due to dirge/enchanger" drama. Since you are posting on the "in testing" forums this is quite possibly the real reason.

Aldelbert

01-20-2009, 02:38 AM

<cite>Althena@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Either:1. You suck2. People on your server suck.I'm inclined to think the latter because on Kithikor people have no problem grouping troubs - and honestly if you are in as good a guild as you imply why the hell would you bother with pick up groups?3rd option? You're just whining trying to get others nerfed to make yourself feel better and making up this "i cant get a group due to dirge/enchanger" drama. Since you are posting on the "in testing" forums this is quite possibly the real reason.</blockquote>My guild is a raid guild. The only time they even really log on is to raid then afterwards they might stick around to form cliqs to do a few zones with and I might get one group a day before they head back to sleep or to alts. I'm not sure how you classify this as whining when I brought up legitimate complaints. If I could post screenshots of people's responses that a dirge/illusionist > troubador then I would. I am posting this "in testing" because Alin's got nerfed which is a core Troubador ability on raids and in groups along with the fact the devs haven't even looked in the Troubador forums for litterally years at this point.

Jehanne

01-20-2009, 03:49 AM

I have difficulty feeling sorry for you troubs when my main is an inquis, sorry. How many raid spots did you say you had?

jolissa3

01-20-2009, 03:49 AM

<cite>Rynir wrote:</cite><blockquote>Look on the bright side... You are still infront of summoners on the priority list. =P</blockquote>lol, exactly what I was thinking. I have a Myth'd/VP/TSO geared Conj. Try and get into a Pug with a Conj, same issues, they are no longer considered mage DPS.Funny thing is on 3 occasions I have sent tells to lfm groups and got the old "sorry we have a conj" line. I box toons all the time so I then ask on my lesser geared Swash (different account) and get snapped up. On all 3 occasions they did not have a Conj in the group.So it's seems Troub and Conjies are the red headed step children of EQ2, any others out there?

firza

01-20-2009, 04:53 AM

I think your confusing 2 things:1 : class-ism. Its there, but as Troub it should not bother to much2 : Less people actively playing.grouping, causing less grouping for your also, and more competition for those groups that do get off.Which leaves me with advice which I am to lazy to do myself:Make groups on your own and your server a better place<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Valphine

01-20-2009, 04:56 AM

They had only scouts in the group? and aimed for a hard zone, dirge are better for both tank & scouts.Maybe thats why they where fastidious. I often had to set the groups and yes I prefer a dirge before a troub as a tank.

Faelgalad

01-20-2009, 05:37 AM

The Un-literated should stop beating the Raid-Horse.Theme is about finding Groups as an Troubadour. Nothing to do with Raidspots or problem of Group finding.Not "Bards" find no groups, it's about an imbalance in Groupplay were Dirges get prefered to Troubs.So Theme is, that one class dominate the other. That's more the Templar-Inquisitor Problem.And it's the same here on Innovation server.GU 51 will increase this Trend!No massiv Aggro-Managment with Troub decreases attractivity of Troub.Troubs are to Mage orientated, which are themself as a whole group in Problem with DPS.So Dirges buff more (Tank, Melee, Healer) and those they buff (Melee) are doing the better Damage.It's time for an Troubadour Revamp.Damage scaling, obsolete skills, one-trick-pony....

Darkor

01-20-2009, 05:52 AM

I think the troub class got messed up. Dirge is the only way to go nowdays which is very sad.

Kalin

01-20-2009, 06:23 AM

Kinda strange really. My experience is that in most cases, a pug with troub and mage dps will do more zw dmg than a pug with dirge and melee dps. Hell...when I'm in a pug with dirge and melee classes, I usually end up at the top of the parse anyways. Maybe I'm just "lucky" and get invited into "bad" pugs. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Valanthe

01-20-2009, 06:42 AM

<cite>Faell@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rynir wrote:</cite><blockquote>Look on the bright side... You are still infront of summoners on the priority list. =P</blockquote>lol, exactly what I was thinking. I have a Myth'd/VP/TSO geared Conj. Try and get into a Pug with a Conj, same issues, they are no longer considered mage DPS.Funny thing is on 3 occasions I have sent tells to lfm groups and got the old "sorry we have a conj" line. I box toons all the time so I then ask on my lesser geared Swash (different account) and get snapped up. On all 3 occasions they did not have a Conj in the group.So it's seems Troub and Conjies are the red headed step children of EQ2, any others out there?</blockquote>Summoners in general are rather meh in groups. (mostly because most of them are awful at playing their class because they wanted an easymode solo class; it's a stigma they can't escape). A bard is a bard for Heroic stuff for the most part... but when the majority of the game doesn't know how to play that well, a Dirge makes things unspeakably easier for a bad tank. That's why most people want it. Rangers aren't all that useful for groups either compared to the rest of the scouts.

Germs666

01-20-2009, 06:53 AM

<cite>Valanthe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faell@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rynir wrote:</cite><blockquote>Look on the bright side... You are still infront of summoners on the priority list. =P</blockquote>lol, exactly what I was thinking. I have a Myth'd/VP/TSO geared Conj. Try and get into a Pug with a Conj, same issues, they are no longer considered mage DPS.Funny thing is on 3 occasions I have sent tells to lfm groups and got the old "sorry we have a conj" line. I box toons all the time so I then ask on my lesser geared Swash (different account) and get snapped up. On all 3 occasions they did not have a Conj in the group.So it's seems Troub and Conjies are the red headed step children of EQ2, any others out there?</blockquote>Summoners in general are rather meh in groups. (mostly because most of them are awful at playing their class because they wanted an easymode solo class; it's a stigma they can't escape). A bard is a bard for Heroic stuff for the most part... but when the majority of the game doesn't know how to play that well, a Dirge makes things unspeakably easier for a bad tank. That's why most people want it. Rangers aren't all that useful for groups either compared to the rest of the scouts.</blockquote>No it's not that summoners are awful at playing their class, it's the fact that our cast times are way too long for the amount of damage that is output. Should it take 2.5 seconds to cast a damage over time spell?? No it's bad enough that we have to wait for ticks yet alone an additional 2.5 sec to cast the horrible spells we have. Our recasts are terrible as well. Mages are dependant on Troubs and Illys and most peole don't even bother with mages since any noob scout in crappy gear can still parse equal to a mage and good scouts with great gear can almost double caster DPS.Maybe if summoners ever get fixed your class might be useful but I have to agree... you're still a bard try looking for a grp as a necro or a conji

revren

01-20-2009, 07:23 AM

Hey HeyI think it has alot to do with the fact that dirges help tanks keep agro , and well alot of tanks suck. Honestly i tihnk that troubs and dirges should help a tank keep agro equally and this would elivate alot of problems. Becouse i love having troubs in my group. SoE has a lot of work to do in making the class semi balanced. However alot of it is just perception, I will take a good conj, or a necro in a group, As long as [Removed for Content] dies i honestly do not care....Welcome HomeRev

Skua

01-20-2009, 08:09 AM

the problem lies more in mages than troubys ....ppl want more melee in pugs than mages....so troubes get shafted....who wants a trouby when u have 0 mages in your group?

Chisa

01-20-2009, 08:27 AM

I dunno about all those other servers. But on Nagafen Troubys are in high demand in T8. In fact the guild I am in, is also a T8 Raiding guild. They always have spots open for Troubys.

Illine

01-20-2009, 09:24 AM

UNTILitSLEEPS

01-20-2009, 09:49 AM

yeah for crusaders troub>dirge, i prefer having both + enchanter though ;D

Darry

01-20-2009, 11:38 AM

I've had some mage oriented groups tearing up 40K+ DPS on nameds in TSO (in easier zones like Necrotic, Crucible, Atrebe's .etc) whereas melee DPS wouldn't be hitting nearly that high.But I've also had some awesome melee groups where troubs are doing considerable DPS, it's all about people not sucking in groups.

Noaani

01-20-2009, 11:47 AM

<cite>Kriemhild@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've had some mage oriented groups tearing up 40K+ DPS on nameds in TSO (in easier zones like Necrotic, Crucible, Atrebe's .etc) whereas melee DPS wouldn't be hitting nearly that high.But I've also had some awesome melee groups where troubs are doing considerable DPS, it's all about people not sucking in groups.</blockquote>Mage DPS does work well on mobs with high HP, but unfortunatly that means we parse like a fighter on trash mobs.A troubador is great for a mage heavy group, but thats about it. Dirges and troubadors line up alright in a balanced group, one increasing melee the other caster DPS. The only 2 advantages dirges have over troubadors is their stoneskin, and the fact that dirges buff melee, and tanks happen to be melee (except SKs).Troubadors need a way to increase tank survivability that is in line with dirge stoneskin (their spell reflect would have done this, if mobs cast as many spells as they do auto attack swings).

Rijacki

01-20-2009, 12:20 PM

<cite>UNTILitSLEEPS wrote:</cite><blockquote>yeah for crusaders troub>dirge, i prefer having both + enchanter though ;D</blockquote>You would have loved our Deep Forge group last night (guild group): paladin, mystic, warden, troubie, troubie, coercer <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We tore through there in less than an hour.Only the two troubies have their mythic. The mystic is a relatively new 80 (he returned to the game less than a month ago after RL took him away right before RoK launched). The paladin had been our raid OT, but the player switched to guardian when our MT had to step down a couple months before TSO launched due to real life. So, yes, we're raid equipped so it isn't exactly a pickup group quality so I make no claims on that *laugh*

EvilAstroboy

01-20-2009, 12:55 PM

Troubadors are not better for Shadowknights than Dirges. Most of a Fighters DPS comes from melee autoattack, especially Crusaders with Knights Stance. My Shadowknight already has 50% cast haste, 25% reuse speed and 25% recovery. Any boosts that Troubadors once gave have become pretty trivial with the changes to the Avenger line.I dont mind Troubadors, they boost the mages and healers in the group, and I prefer to take mages cos I boost them better with my buffs (10% cast speed and reuse, 5% base spell damage, Death March). But they are definitely not better for any tank.One hour on deep forge isnt particularly fast either, doing the daily double yesterday in Deep Forge we were done in 15 mins with only 5 people. Noone in the group had their mythical either (Shadowknight, Coercer, Warlock, Dirge and Warden). Three of us were doing 5-7k dps, the Dirge was sitting on about 3k.Troubadors do what they do well, boosting anything aside from their own personal DPS would just make mages overpowered. The main problem I see is that tanks usually form the groups, and most tanks are greedy and want to look better than everyone else so they get the Dirge instead, since they boost them better than the other bard.

Aule

01-20-2009, 12:57 PM

When grouping, as it stands currently, unless my tank is our raid OT Shadowknight then it doesn't matter who the other tank is, I still pull aggro. Even with a paladin with M1 amends I can pull aggro off them easy on any fight with 2+ mobs, and have on occasion pulled off on one mob. -30 to -50 on the hate gen, doesn't matter, still happens. Whether there's a troub in the group or a dirge doesn't really matter. Maybe after LU51 we'll see some changes to this. If you didn't "need" a dirge for your tank to hold aggro, maybe more people will bring troub's along. Personally, I'm not picky about which bard comes along.

Tinrae

01-20-2009, 01:12 PM

<cite>SkuaII wrote:</cite><blockquote>the problem lies more in mages than troubys ....ppl want more melee in pugs than mages....so troubes get shafted....who wants a trouby when u have 0 mages in your group?</blockquote>This is exactly what I told a guildmate last night. His main in a troubador, and he is a group player at heart- hates soloing. He's torn right now because he feels that he wants high group desirability but is many times overlooked in favor of a dirge in PuGs, but he doesn't really want to betray his high level troub. In his own words "they only want me on raids" (my guild is not a raid one, but he raids in an alliance). It makes sense when I see "LFM scout dps" all the time that dirges are desired more than troubs.I have a troub myself who is level 65, whom I love very much. Is my second favorite class to play so far, just after coercer. I don't PuG so the community's value of the class doesn't affect me much, but I support anything that would increase troub value in the eyes of those who do.

Kordran

01-20-2009, 01:14 PM

<cite>EvilAstroboy wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main problem I see is that tanks usually form the groups, and most tanks are greedy and want to look better than everyone else so they get the Dirge instead, since they boost them better than the other bard.</blockquote>That's nonsense. The reason that Dirges tend to be more popular is because they bring more utility to melee groups, which are (for the moment, at least) more efficient than caster groups against high yellow/low orange mobs. Not to mention, in some cases, a caster-heavy group is actually a liability (e.g.: Crucible). Now if SOE addressed the issue of resist rates for casters against higher level mobs, the story would probably change. But as it is, all other things being roughly equal (gear, spec, general player skill), T1 melee DPS will outperform caster DPS consistently zonewide.

liveja

01-20-2009, 01:17 PM

<cite>Tinrae wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is exactly what I told a guildmate last night. His main in a troubador, and he is a group player at heart- hates soloing. He's torn right now because he feels that he wants high group desirability but is many times overlooked in favor of a dirge in PuGs, but he doesn't really want to betray his high level troub.</blockquote>That's exactly where I'm sitting right now with my 72 Troubie.My Troubie can solo just fine, so getting to 80 solo is not the issue. The issue is that I don't want to solo to 80, but nobody seems to want a 72 Troubie <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cannon

01-20-2009, 01:21 PM

What I see as the big difference between Dirges making an instance group over a troubador is CoB with the stun proc. As far as Alin's I believe that with the change coming to tanks it will make that spell less needed. Which does hurt as it was such a big pro to have another troubie on a raid to quell some of that DPS aggro. It also hurts as our VP set bonus killed a conc spot that it requires for Alin's no it might not be usefull to even have up. I think troubadors do need to be looked at. I mean you give us a charm that last maybe 9 seconds then we have to pour 5 AA points into it to make it a 12 second charm. Cant SOE just change this to another mez? Why not give us a short term group mez.

Kordran

01-20-2009, 01:42 PM

<cite>Kriemhild@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've had some mage oriented groups tearing up 40K+ DPS on nameds in TSO (in easier zones like Necrotic, Crucible, Atrebe's .etc) whereas melee DPS wouldn't be hitting nearly that high.</blockquote>Your "mage oriented group" wasn't doing 40K against the Master in Crucible, considering that he reflects almost everything that is cast on him; casters are pretty much left to nuking the dogs and staffing the named, otherwise they're dead on the floor doing zero DPS.Against level 84/85 mobs, all other things being relatively equal (e.g.: casters and melee mythicaled/mastered/fabled), melee will consistently out-damage the casters zonewide. It's something that I've seen hold true in both heroic instances and on raids.

Cragger

01-20-2009, 02:02 PM

For the vast majority of heroic groups Dirge is the far better choice if taking just one of the two.Troubador has:1. Hate reduction (For now)2. Aria (Casters cast spells less often than CAs are used and have no autoattack.)3. PoM (Same as Aria.)4. Casting skill enhancers (Useful to the 1 or 2 mages you might have.)5. Jester cap (Only useful if you receieve it before you've used long recast abilties)Dirge has:1. Weapon skill enhancer (Vastly helpful to tank in defensive stance and the melee damage in the group with these mobs that are exceedingly hard to hit.)2. Stoneskin (Exceedingly useful to the tank.)3. Proc rate enhancer. (Can actually add more dps then Aria's for casters depending on procs.)4. Gravitas (Always useful to the priest in the group.)5. Melee proc (Does more damage due to melee autoattack.)6. Chime (Same as melee proc.)7. Hate gain for tank (For now)None of this takes into account the Shadows AAs, which trumped Troubadours again.

Griffildur

01-20-2009, 02:05 PM

<cite>Kalin@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kinda strange really. My experience is that in most cases, a pug with troub and mage dps will do more zw dmg than a pug with dirge and melee dps. Hell...when I'm in a pug with dirge and melee classes, I usually end up at the top of the parse anyways. Maybe I'm just "lucky" and get invited into "bad" pugs. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Hey Kalin .... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I so disagree with that. Melee dps seems to do much much better than any mage dps. However when you play with friends , it does not matter much as nobody cares the dps is a bit lower !There are mages who can put out a lot of dps but they are rare. Too rare I'm afraid.

speedycerv

01-20-2009, 02:17 PM

<cite>Aldelbert wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Althena@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Either:1. You suck2. People on your server suck.I'm inclined to think the latter because on Kithikor people have no problem grouping troubs - and honestly if you are in as good a guild as you imply why the hell would you bother with pick up groups?3rd option? You're just whining trying to get others nerfed to make yourself feel better and making up this "i cant get a group due to dirge/enchanger" drama. Since you are posting on the "in testing" forums this is quite possibly the real reason.</blockquote>My guild is a raid guild. The only time they even really log on is to raid then afterwards they might stick around to form cliqs to do a few zones with and I might get one group a day before they head back to sleep or to alts. I'm not sure how you classify this as whining when I brought up legitimate complaints. If I could post screenshots of people's responses that a dirge/illusionist > troubador then I would. I am posting this "in testing" because Alin's got nerfed which is a core Troubador ability on raids and in groups along with the fact the devs haven't even looked in the Troubador forums for litterally years at this point.</blockquote>Is this raid guild ur in on the test server? and are being denied groups on the test server? I don't think so. I played a troub for 3 years and people would only want a dirge over me if it was a mostly melee group, and even if it was they would take me usually if a dirge wasn't easily available. A detaunt proc isn't that bad, and this poster more than likely hasn't even played on test to try it out.

liveja

01-20-2009, 02:25 PM

<cite>Ishidaa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I played a troub for 3 years and people would only want a dirge over me if it was a mostly melee group</blockquote>Most of the groups I've seen doing TSO have been very melee-heavy, & I've not once ever seen a TSO group asking for a Troubie -- but quite a few of them asking for Dirges.I don't know what it's like on the Test Server; I'm speaking of the live servers, right now. Are people forming more mage-oriented groups on the Test Server? If so, that would be helpful towards getting more groups for Troubies, but it would also raise the question of why they're forming them on Test, & not Live. IOW, what on Test has changed to make people want more mage-heavy groups? Just looking at the Test notes isn't showing anything obvious, so I'd appreciate it if a Test Server veteran could explain those things.I'd play on Test, but I barely have time to play on my Live Server as it is.

Kordran

01-20-2009, 02:35 PM

<cite>Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are mages who can put out a lot of dps but they are rare. Too rare I'm afraid.</blockquote>The problem isn't really so much specific encounters, where mages may be able to put out the damage. The problem is that they're not consistent against high level mobs. All it takes to put their DPS in the cellar is a string of resists, which frankly is common against level 85 heroics and raid mobs.Casters can put out big numbers, but their performance is typically spotty, while melee is more consistent and reliable. I'm a tank, and when I put together a group it typically looks like myself, healer, dirge, chanter (usually a coercer), melee, melee (usually a swash and assassin, but it can depend on who in my guild is on at the time). Occasionally I'll take a wizard or warlock instead of one of the melee, but it's not too common. In the last month, I could count the number of times I've grouped with a troub on one hand.

Full_Metal_Mage

01-20-2009, 02:38 PM

<cite>Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>For the vast majority of heroic groups Dirge is the far better choice if taking just one of the two.Troubador has:1. Hate reduction (For now)2. Aria (Casters cast spells less often than CAs are used and have no autoattack.)3. PoM (Same as Aria.)4. Casting skill enhancers (Useful to the 1 or 2 mages you might have.)5. Jester cap (Only useful if you receieve it before you've used long recast abilties)Dirge has:1. Weapon skill enhancer (Vastly helpful to tank in defensive stance and the melee damage in the group with these mobs that are exceedingly hard to hit.)2. Stoneskin (Exceedingly useful to the tank.)3. Proc rate enhancer. (Can actually add more dps then Aria's for casters depending on procs.)4. Gravitas (Always useful to the priest in the group.)5. Melee proc (Does more damage due to melee autoattack.)6. Chime (Same as melee proc.)7. Hate gain for tank (For now)None of this takes into account the Shadows AAs, which trumped Troubadours again.</blockquote>My casters have autoattack. Maybe your's are broken.

Kordran

01-20-2009, 02:48 PM

<cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote>My casters have autoattack. Maybe your's are broken.</blockquote>Yeah, that extra 100 DPS from staffing the mob, can't tell you the number of times that's been the key to victory. Oh wait, sure I can. None.

Tamar

01-20-2009, 03:14 PM

<cite>Ishidaa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aldelbert wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Althena@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Either:1. You suck2. People on your server suck.I'm inclined to think the latter because on Kithikor people have no problem grouping troubs - and honestly if you are in as good a guild as you imply why the hell would you bother with pick up groups?3rd option? You're just whining trying to get others nerfed to make yourself feel better and making up this "i cant get a group due to dirge/enchanger" drama. Since you are posting on the "in testing" forums this is quite possibly the real reason.</blockquote>My guild is a raid guild. The only time they even really log on is to raid then afterwards they might stick around to form cliqs to do a few zones with and I might get one group a day before they head back to sleep or to alts. I'm not sure how you classify this as whining when I brought up legitimate complaints. If I could post screenshots of people's responses that a dirge/illusionist > troubador then I would. I am posting this "in testing" because Alin's got nerfed which is a core Troubador ability on raids and in groups along with the fact the devs haven't even looked in the Troubador forums for litterally years at this point.</blockquote>Is this raid guild ur in on the test server? and are being denied groups on the test server? I don't think so. I played a troub for 3 years and people would only want a dirge over me if it was a mostly melee group, and even if it was they would take me usually if a dirge wasn't easily available. A detaunt proc isn't that bad, and this poster more than likely hasn't even played on test to try it out.</blockquote>People group on Test? I'm calling BS on this pooost.No...he, and many other non-straight DPS or chanter classes are second choice in group building. You having a few friends who felt sorry for you and grouping you 3 years agi doesn't change the current state of T8 group makeup.I'm not saying nerf "that class"...I am saying buff the poor troubies.

Kordran

01-20-2009, 03:26 PM

Not to mention that Test is an isolated microcosm of the game that really doesn't have much to do with what's going on with the live servers. The community is miniscule, and certaintly not representative. Because a troub gets a mercy slot on Test doesn't mean that translates into a worldwide embrace of the class.

CrazyMoogle

01-20-2009, 03:59 PM

<cite>Aldelbert wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's the deal: I'm 185AA with both end line abilities in my Shadows line maxed out. I have some VP gear, my epic (not mythical), and a mix of other fabled and legendary. I pull about 2.5-3.5k on average on single targets and about 1.5k-2.5k on big multi-mob encounters. I play my class to the best I can possibly do with a Jcap roatation, Maestro, running the songs the group wants, occasionally charming/mezzing on messy pulls or what not. I do not consider myself a bad player in the slightest. I am in a raid guild and I do not have a bad reputation as a player.With that, why is it so [Removed for Content] hard lately for Troubadors to find a group for heroic content? Everytime I send a tell to a group LF a bard, apparently Troubadors don't count because everyone wants a [Removed for Content] Dirge. If I try to fill a group's request for utility, I get shut down because enchanters fill that role, provide more dps, and have PoM. My troubador is practically shelved except for raiding where my guild hopes to get my mythical soon so I'll be "useful."This seriously how you planned this class out SoE? To be only be actually wanted if they're packing a mythical to a raid force and that's it? I've watched back to back Lord of the Rings movies and not seen one tell pop on my screen once while I had a LFG macro going with my LFG tag up. Have we really become this worthless to players that when I respond to a group asking for a bard that we don't count as a God [Removed for Content] bard anymore!?And now between GU51 to GU52, we're probably going to have to wait at least 4 months to even be looked at which is a big if....</blockquote>Transfer to Najena and send me a tell.

Couching

01-20-2009, 05:43 PM

<cite>EvilAstroboy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Troubadors are not better for Shadowknights than Dirges. Most of a Fighters DPS comes from melee autoattack, especially Crusaders with Knights Stance. My Shadowknight already has 50% cast haste, 25% reuse speed and 25% recovery. Any boosts that Troubadors once gave have become pretty trivial with the changes to the Avenger line.</blockquote>If over 50% of your dps comes from melee auto attack, you are either under geared or wrong speced as a sk. For high end sk, melee auto attack is about only 30%~40% in raid no matter it's aoe or single target.To maximum dps for sk, troubador is better than dirge.

Full_Metal_Mage

01-20-2009, 06:22 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote>My casters have autoattack. Maybe your's are broken.</blockquote>Yeah, that extra 100 DPS from staffing the mob, can't tell you the number of times that's been the key to victory. Oh wait, sure I can. None.</blockquote>I didn't say that it represented an important damage contribution by classes that generally should try to stay out of melee range. I just said they have it.

Lethe5683

01-20-2009, 07:58 PM

Welll from my experiance I don't like troubs in my group since they don't help me much and make it even harder to hold aggro if there's a wizard or warlock. IMO the only time troub > dirge is a group with a SK tank and mostly mage DPS.

Gisallo

01-20-2009, 08:41 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Welll from my experiance I don't like troubs in my group since they don't help me much and make it even harder to hold aggro if there's a wizard or warlock. IMO the only time troub > dirge is a group with a SK tank and mostly mage DPS.</blockquote>OMG I am going to agree with Lethe, please write down this date and time <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. This is what I think it comes down to. IF you have mostly mage dps in a group I want a troub. Yeah he doesn't help my tank that much BUT as long as I can still hold aggro having my dps buffed ftw. If most of my dps are melee I want a dirge no if and sor butts

Igixnasii

01-21-2009, 01:52 AM

<cite>Aldelbert wrote:</cite><blockquote>With that, why is it so [Removed for Content] hard lately for Troubadors to find a group for heroic content? Everytime I send a tell to a group LF a bard, apparently Troubadors don't count because everyone wants a [Removed for Content] Dirge. If I try to fill a group's request for utility, I get shut down because enchanters fill that role, provide more dps, and have PoM. My troubador is practically shelved except for raiding where my guild hopes to get my mythical soon so I'll be "useful."</blockquote>Wow really? Stupid groups.. I'll take either a troub or dirge .. usually before a chanter as a personal pref and find they both are equally valuable .. infact sometimes I'll take both over other classes.

Melli

01-21-2009, 05:07 AM

I feel for the troubs - I often get the same thing on my coercer. Folks want a 'chanter, but what they really want is an illy for the better buffs. Troubs and coercers get the job done but many folks prefer our counterparts because they have better overall utility. The best thing to do is just form your own groups.Unfortunately, there is a great deal of animosity toward bards (and 'chanters for that matter) because of our raid desirability so I could imagine a huge outcry if they actually balanced the utility for troubs. It's unfortunate because they really do some out short when stacked up against their counterpart.

Noob1974

01-21-2009, 05:21 AM

First Troubs now coercer are crying for not getting groups are your server really so s....d ? I play a ranger so theres a difference between a class thats has purely dps and utility classes like troubs/ coercer. In our RF Groups we usually have troubs and i dont mind having them in a group over a dirge. I think its about time to change that not 4-5 bards and 4-5 enchanter are wanted in raids. Give some utility to summoner or predator to equal chances.

Natthan

01-21-2009, 05:25 AM

<cite>Noob1974 wrote:</cite><blockquote>First Troubs now coercer are crying for not getting groups are your server really so s....d ? I play a ranger so theres a difference between a class thats has purely dps and utility classes like troubs/ coercer. In our RF Groups we usually have troubs and i dont mind having them in a group over a dirge. I think its about time to change that not 4-5 bards and 4-5 enchanter are wanted in raids. Give some utility to summoner or predator to equal chances.</blockquote>You can't have it all, They already got a great debuff for raids and have awesome DPS output. I agree Fix summoners, but predators are fine, and assassins are probally a bit on the OP side.

Noob1974

01-21-2009, 05:38 AM

When spoken of predator i meant my class the ranger.

Darry

01-21-2009, 06:02 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kriemhild@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've had some mage oriented groups tearing up 40K+ DPS on nameds in TSO (in easier zones like Necrotic, Crucible, Atrebe's .etc) whereas melee DPS wouldn't be hitting nearly that high.</blockquote>Your "mage oriented group" wasn't doing 40K against the Master in Crucible, considering that he reflects almost everything that is cast on him; casters are pretty much left to nuking the dogs and staffing the named, otherwise they're dead on the floor doing zero DPS.Against level 84/85 mobs, all other things being relatively equal (e.g.: casters and melee mythicaled/mastered/fabled), melee will consistently out-damage the casters zonewide. It's something that I've seen hold true in both heroic instances and on raids.</blockquote>Yup only around 20k on Master and pitiful 9k on the golem in the front of Atrebe's, even still zone wide the highest DPS I tend to be in are caster based. Unless the mob reflects a group stun/stifle twice in a row or a Bolt Of Ice, I can't see how it's possible to kill yourself when the reflect doesn't do that much damage.

Jeepned2

01-21-2009, 01:11 PM

From the new post for SoE explaining the new aggro system." Hate gain and hate reduction were plentiful from a small number of spells. This made it easy for many players to hit the 50% cap and have little risk from their action. Thus the values were toned down or removed from these spells in favor of new methods. This will in turn allow us to grant these effects sparingly on items and have a meaningful effect. In the past this was not possible due to the ease of hitting 50% through certain spell combinations. "For Troubs, don't expect any help or love for sometime way in the future... way way future. They think so much of us now that they are nerfing down one of our three most important abilities which is de-hate. Of course taking it away from us doesn't mean they are taking it out of the game, no, they are planning on giving it away for free on dropped items. See above. Oh well.For casters, your future ain't looking to bright either unless you are an enchanter. On last nights raid we took four enchanters.... that was it. Seems some think you take too much damage on some of the harder named mobs, especially those that continuously kick out big AoE's that you can't get away from. So between the fact that you are doing less dps then Assassins, Swashys and Brigands, bring no or very little utility, and can't survive, I'm seeing fewer and fewer of you in raids. And with your fate goes mine.

Illine

01-21-2009, 01:31 PM

problem of mages, not much more dps, a bit more utility, some buffs and mana feed but a lot less survivability. We are the best when we can't approach the mob and that's all.like in one of the mobs in casttle mystmoore instance, you need to take the last % real quick. but he chain KB and you always have to move otherwise he drains mana. and scouts can attack while moving or in the air, mages can't, so we loose a lot of dps on fights like that. And I'm a coercer, I cast quick, but here I just couldn't dps as well as I wanted. When I think of sorcerers with long cast time spells, it must be even more annoying.the tank clearly told me that for this kind of mob, it wasn't good to have a mage only group, they don't have enough burst dps.mages are good but scouts are better. predators beat sorcerers in dps most of the time. summoners and not well liked as it seems while rogues are needed for a good raid force, just enchanters and bards are well balanced ... except troubas are really usefull if there are mages ... even though I love having a troub in my group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (usually I don't :'()

Huntress Jellica

01-21-2009, 01:55 PM

<cite>Natthan@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noob1974 wrote:</cite><blockquote>First Troubs now coercer are crying for not getting groups are your server really so s....d ? I play a ranger so theres a difference between a class thats has purely dps and utility classes like troubs/ coercer. In our RF Groups we usually have troubs and i dont mind having them in a group over a dirge. I think its about time to change that not 4-5 bards and 4-5 enchanter are wanted in raids. Give some utility to summoner or predator to equal chances.</blockquote>You can't have it all, They already got a great debuff for raids and have awesome DPS output. I agree Fix summoners, but predators are fine, and assassins are probally a bit on the OP side.</blockquote>Please enlighten me... What great debuffs do you speak of? Vulnerability? Oo, wow, lowers defense.. like so many other classes do, and not as well as they do it. Vulnerable arrows? Lowers parry and deflection.. ok, that's decent but hardly "great." And Rope.. lowers mitigation vs. heat.Wow, those sure are "great" debuffs. Not. And I'm no expert on assassin CAs, but I don't think their debuffs are "great" either. They lower defense/poison mitigation I believe. Perhaps you meant rogues, who are known for their great debuffs, and not predators? Not only do rogues lower the target's defense, they also lower mitigation and OFFENSIVE output of the target. That's a lot better than what predators do, debuff wise. All while dishing out DPS almost equal to predators.Though I will agree with you on one thing. Assassins are definitely a little overpowered as it stands right now. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />I feel for troubadors. There's a few in my guild who are getting a little nervous that they're going to be cut from the raid force. But we always have one, at least, and sometimes two. We usually take the essential classes, and then roll out with whatever we have, and we do well. So I wish you troubs luck. As a ranger I obviously prefer a dirge, but troubadors definitely bring a lot to groups/raids, and I would accept one into a group without hesitating, even if there's no mages.I wish I had something constructive to bring to the post, but I don't play a troubador, so I don't really have much to offer, other than I like the class. I have my fingers crossed for you!*edited because I'm a dork and hit submit before I was done..

Donilla

01-21-2009, 02:07 PM

Reading thru all of this I have to wonder what happened to the idea of learning to defeat a mob with the group you have. Forgetting raid content, every other mob should be killable by a group with a tank, dps and a healer. It shouldn't matter in what combination those come. Why is the most optimal configuration the only one people are willing to use. I've seem groups fall apart because they were unwilling to take something other the the specific class they are jonzing for, and how is that any fun? The skill comes from adjusting your technique to work with what you have, not from doing nothing until you have the exact same group setup you always have and just running thru the content with no challenge.I have a troubie, and I see the exact same thing, even at level 20. I actually get tells telling me to betray and then they would have me. BS to that. And try being a Ranger! It's even worse. I can do outstanding dps (yes I know assasins are better atm) but unless I have my mythical and shard armor to the gazoo, I can't even get a group. And how, precisely, am I supposed to get any of that stuff if I can't get a group?I've had the best times when I found a group of people who got together, worked with what they had and figured out a way to defeat the zone or mob without doing it the same old way each time.When did the grind for drops and high end gear become more important then gameplay and fun? /removed my last statement cause it was too cynical but I'm sure everyone has a something they can plug in.

Aule

01-21-2009, 02:10 PM

Really the best way to obtain desirability for yourself in groups is very simple. Do a [Removed for Content] good job, group often, and group with everybody. It doesn't matter what your class is, bringing competence to the group is vastly superior. Take my brother and I. I group in PUG's all the time, he almost never does. We're both very competent at our classes, but I'm turning down group invites all night whereas you mention his name and the response is "who?". I often have a group invite before I've finished logging on. Does it suck that some classes have more desirability than others? Well, yes, it does. But if you get yourself a reputation for competence then you shouldn't have a problem getting groups.

Aule

01-21-2009, 02:22 PM

Oh and start your own groups, that helps a lot.

Kordran

01-21-2009, 02:26 PM

<cite>Donilla@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've had the best times when I found a group of people who got together, worked with what they had and figured out a way to defeat the zone or mob without doing it the same old way each time.</blockquote>On the other hand, you have people who don't want to spend 3 hours in an instance, and paying a plat to a repair bot, to run something that should take 45 minutes. It's been more than two months since TSO was released, the "figuring" out part of the TSO instances is done. People know what to do, and they know what classes they need to do it. While thinking outside the box and running non-standard groups for a challenge/amusement may be fun to some people, it's pretty clear that it's not so for most.Funny enough, now that they're making void shards shareable amongst your alts, you're going to see even more shard farming going on. More players will want to run those instances with increased speed and efficiency because "they've been there, done that" and the only reason they're still running them is to gear up an alt.

liveja

01-21-2009, 02:29 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really the best way to obtain desirability for yourself in groups is very simple. Do a [Removed for Content] good job, group often, and group with everybody.</blockquote>I'm kinda confused by this advice: the answer to the problem of not getting groups, is to group more thus gaining a reputation as a good group member?OK. I'll remember that, the next time I spend 4+ hours LFG without a response <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />O, & yea, I'd be happy to start my own groups ... if anyone actually responded to me ... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" />

Aule

01-21-2009, 03:04 PM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>For casters, your future ain't looking to bright either unless you are an enchanter. On last nights raid we took four enchanters.... that was it. Seems some think you take too much damage on some of the harder named mobs, especially those that continuously kick out big AoE's that you can't get away from. So between the fact that you are doing less dps then Assassins, Swashys and Brigands, bring no or very little utility, and can't survive, I'm seeing fewer and fewer of you in raids. And with your fate goes mine.</blockquote>Yeah well, look at the comparison between scout dps and mage dps.Scouts can:Move while castingTake a hitDeal comparable dpsDon't get gimped by reflectWith the advent of 75m or zonewide aoe's, what happened to the benefit of being able to range the fight?

Aule

01-21-2009, 03:05 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really the best way to obtain desirability for yourself in groups is very simple. Do a [Removed for Content] good job, group often, and group with everybody.</blockquote>I'm kinda confused by this advice: the answer to the problem of not getting groups, is to group more thus gaining a reputation as a good group member?OK. I'll remember that, the next time I spend 4+ hours LFG without a response <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />O, & yea, I'd be happy to start my own groups ... if anyone actually responded to me ... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Surely you can come up with 1 or 2 friends you can start a group with and then fill the remaining 3 or 4 spots with people LFG? Nobody in guild or on your friendslist will start a group with you?

Dolorian

01-21-2009, 03:07 PM

To jellica :Sins have apply poison, a great melee buff but for only one other player,had great threat transfer. But the real deal is the new skill recieved with TSO,a very powerfull debuff which reduces the crit bonus of a mob by 10.If you prefer it's the equivalent of 10 critical mitigation for each person of your group/raid.I do believe rangers should have extra utility, like group in combat speed,or some sort of "pinpoint vulnerable spot" attack on a mob making all attackson the mob do more damage for a short duration.If i remember correctly sins have this as a reverse proc debuff.Back to the topic,Troubs bring less utility than the other support classes, fact.Mages gain more dps from a troub, but in all other domains the other support classes bring more.

liveja

01-21-2009, 03:19 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nobody in guild or on your friendslist will start a group with you?</blockquote>Actually, with a grand total of 17 unique accounts, it's very, very often that nobody from my guild is on when I am, & everyone on my friends list is level 80, worrying much more about gearing up their own characters & not about grouping with someone 7 levels below them. FWIW, my Troubie is 73rd level, with 103 AAs, equipped in mostly MC melodic chain, with a few bits of regular crafted jewelry & some drops.Please note that my responses in this thread should probably go under the Gameplay forum, rather than In Development, because I don't think there's really anything SOE could (or even should) do to change the situation. In particular, the very last thing I want is to see Dirges & Chanters getting nerfed. IMO it's more of a player perception issue than anything else; it's simply a matter of melee DPS being seen as "better" for high level heroic content than caster DPS, & the fact that Dirges are better for melee support than are Troubies.I think that if SOE were to change anything at all, it would be to fix Mage DPS -- in particular that of Sorcerors & Summoners -- so that melee is not seen as "better", or, alternatively (IMO, less desirable) to change some of the encounters to add more need for spell-casters. IMO, far too much of TSO is simply too easy to burn through with just melee DPS.Note that I otherwise love TSO ... especially when I'm playing my 80 Swashy. I rarely have trouble finding groups on my Swashy. I also figure that when my Troubie finally DOES get to 80, I'll be seeing plenty of raid slots ... so the issue isn't game-threatening, IMO. But even that might change, if casters continue to get left in the dust.

Huntress Jellica

01-21-2009, 06:10 PM

<cite><a href="mailto:Ophidius@Storms">Ophidius@Storms</a> wrote:</cite><blockquote>To jellica :I do believe rangers should have extra utility, like group in combat speed. Nope, that's bards. We have out of combat up to 46% for the group.or some sort of "pinpoint vulnerable spot" attack on a mob making all attacks on the mob do more damage for a short duration. It doesn't add damage. It's a 15 second buff that increases crush/pierce/slash, and improves your chance to hit with a weapon by 25% at M2.. Which is what pretty much every ranger should have. </blockquote>Out of combat run speed and a short buff that doesn't help much (considering current hit rates) isn't much. And it's STILL not a debuff.. =P

Kunaak

01-21-2009, 06:58 PM

As a Tank, I have a different perspective on troubs.unlike some people here, I am not here to tell you you suck, or so and so class has it worse then you. Just straight feedback.heres the basic problem.TSO is absolute MURDER on Mage classes of every sort.Resists are off the chart these days. its sooooooooo outta hand, that all mage classes, even the highest end raid mages I know complain about this issue alot. EQ2's Devs have just gone bonkers with resists and immunity, on herioc content. sooooooo much so, that all mages feel like they are unreliable sources of DPS. especially in zones like ravenscale and such, where the zones are harder then most groups will do.Troubs, Buff Mage Classes Mainly....as a tank, I just dont like taking mages any where any more, cause resists are soooo outta hand, that I cant rely on them. sometimes they will do great, next pull, 19 resists in a row.I reallly reaaaalllly sympathize with the mages of this game currently, cause they are so getting reamed in all thier time and effort, cause resists are simply outta hand, and theres not a whole lot you can do about it. sure, raise disruption as high as you can, and get high cast haste, so if you get resisted, you can cast something even faster to try again.but the plain fact is...when I take say a brigand in a mages place, I have none of this issue.sure, an occassional parry or riposte here and there, but no where near as much as with mages. so I can rely on them to pull constant DPS or very close to it.so, not wanting troubs, is a side effect of how badly mages are getting screwed in this game at the moment.honestly, the issue is far more something devs need to look into, then they seem to admit. Resists are off the charts for almost any mage class out there.only Illys and Coercers have it good, cause they provide very high power regen, and IA, and make some [Removed for Content] fine DPS group wide too.the combination of a Dirge, Brigand, Assassin, Illy.... is heaven to me in just about any zone.add me the tank, and a [Removed for Content] good healer, of any sort (I have no preference for healer, each is good in thier way, from the templars buffs, to the wardens endless power - any good healer will do) and I cant think of any zone in the game, I couldnt do with that set up.yet, change for mage/troub combo.... and honestly, I'd cut my choices in half instantly for where I would take them.if they said "lets do outter stronghold, or crucible" I'd just say no thanks...theres absolutly nothing wrong with you troubs as a whole. not one thing.the problem comes down to incredibly high amount of resists and immunities that mobs in zones have now, and how little there seems to be to get around that issue.the Devs really need to rethink how much a mob resists, and such, so mage classes are a much much better option then they currently are.cause as a tank... all mage classes are a secondary choice, that I will instantly pass on, if any scout DPS says they will go in thier place.no mages in groups = no need for troub in group.I know troubs offer all classes buffs of various sorts, but dirges do alot more for fighters then troubs do. with any fighter class, I never have to worry about the issue of resists.thats why I think troubs may currently be getting left out.its a side effect of what mage classes in general are currently going through.

Noaani

01-21-2009, 07:04 PM

<cite>Noob1974 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Give some utility to summoner or predator to equal chances.</blockquote>You are aware that there is not excuse for a ranger to not be T1 DPS, right? The only class in a raid that should consistantly beat you on a parse is an assassin, and that is because they have been OP for 15 months.

Melli

01-21-2009, 07:40 PM

While this has moved slightly off topic, it still relates to the troub's place in the overall scheme of things. Mages are having a lot of trouble this expansion because of the increased ranges on AEs. In the past, a mage had a slight advantage over the squishier meleers because we could stand mostly at max range and continue to damage while the scouts had to joust out of range, autobow and then move back in.That being said, part of the problem is an unwillingness to adapt. As the (only) coercer on raids, I've always stayed in range with my healers so my tank doesn't lose my buffs. I've never jousted AEs and while there are occasional AEs that would initially kick my butt (Silverwing comes to mind), I'd adapt and learn how to survive those fights. Yes, it lowers my DPS because I'm not wearing the best gear for it, but was more important.The new AE changes are effecting scouts as well - but mages a bit harsher because they're more squishy. I don't know how many times I've done an inspect on someone that is dying 3, 4, 5 times per fight and they aren't wearing a single piece of crit mit or dispersion gear. That 10K parse doesn't mean jack if you healed the mob for a million hit points. Scouts still have to joust to avoid the worst of the AE and I see a lot of scout deaths as well. All DPS, but especially mages, need to realize that survival is just as important as damage output on many of these new encounters. Just like the hate changes, you can adapt or you can fail.

tbone7777

01-21-2009, 10:01 PM

Looking at one of the tank threads in the "in testing" forum, I see base taunt amounts increased by 25% going from a base 400 agression to 433 (or the aprox amount of the troub buff). Combine a crusader with all the troub casting buffs and i see some desirabilty for groups. With the scouts losing their transfers, i can even possibly see a troub in the MT group in a raid for the above reasons. Troubs also have a group buff for + defense and with aa's, +767 vs crushing, slashing etc. I have no idea what MT's are sitting at in regards to def etc in raids, so that idea might be a far fetched one..dunno.

Antryg Mistrose

01-21-2009, 11:05 PM

<cite>tbone7777 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looking at one of the tank threads in the "in testing" forum, I see base taunt amounts increased by 25% going from a base 400 agression to 433 (or the aprox amount of the troub buff). Combine a crusader with all the troub casting buffs and i see some desirabilty for groups. With the scouts losing their transfers, i can even possibly see a troub in the MT group in a raid for the above reasons. Troubs also have a group buff for + defense and with aa's, +767 vs crushing, slashing etc. I have no idea what MT's are sitting at in regards to def etc in raids, so that idea might be a far fetched one..dunno.</blockquote>Troubs buff defence and a bit of mitigation you are saying, Dirges buff parry and provide a stoneskin, and provide hate/aggression. I can't see any place for a troub in the mt group replacing a dirge. I can see them in there with LU51 replacing a warden or swash/assassin

Kordran

01-22-2009, 01:38 AM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>Troubs buff defence and a bit of mitigation you are saying, Dirges buff parry and provide a stoneskin, and provide hate/aggression. I can't see any place for a troub in the mt group replacing a dirge. I can see them in there with LU51 replacing a warden or swash/assassin</blockquote>One other point. The ability to buff the Aggression skill will be very important for tanks post GU51. Getting buffed over the magical number 440 in the skill means that the tank's taunts cannot be resisted, (edit: against level 80 mobs, for level 85, the magic number is 468) and that will have a huge impact on the performance of the tank and the group overall.Speaking from the perspective of someone who plays a tank, there's really no reason to bring a Troubador into a heroic instance. For rading, one for the mage group and that's it. The rest? Dirges.

Vlahkmaak

01-22-2009, 04:47 AM

Re-roll on Venekor. Dirge/troub, I care not - you are utility. You add haste, which will benefit the melee DPS, you increase crit and heal crit chance, on TSO lines you increase mitigation, you decrease scout aggro generation - why would I not want you? You have a great set of debuffs to make the encounter easier to tank too. I think the people on your server that refuse to grp with a troub are just not used to grping with troubs. Re-roll on Venekor.

Noob1974

01-22-2009, 05:23 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noob1974 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Give some utility to summoner or predator to equal chances.</blockquote>You are aware that there is not excuse for a ranger to not be T1 DPS, right? The only class in a raid that should consistantly beat you on a parse is an assassin, and that is because they have been OP for 15 months.</blockquote> I'm not sure if you noticed but swashies have become a T1 AA Class in TSO, with all the AE Encounter, they get Flurry which ranger dont get, and on Top of all the debuffs swashies have. They are in TSO better than ranger.

liveja

01-22-2009, 11:41 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>Troubs buff defence and a bit of mitigation you are saying, Dirges buff parry and provide a stoneskin, and provide hate/aggression. I can't see any place for a troub in the mt group replacing a dirge. I can see them in there with LU51 replacing a warden or swash/assassin</blockquote>One other point. The ability to buff the Aggression skill will be very important for tanks post GU51. Getting buffed over the magical number 440 in the skill means that the tank's taunts cannot be resisted, and that will have a huge impact on the performance of the tank and the group overall.Speaking from the perspective of someone who plays a tank, there's really no reason to bring a Troubador into a heroic instance. For rading, one for the mage group and that's it. The rest? Dirges.</blockquote>Quoting both posters for added emphasis.Last night, some guildies & I did Crypt of Agony: 80 Coercer, 80 Pally, 78 Mystic, & me, 73 Troubie. We called it about halfway through, because the Pally & Coercer both had to go to bed, but we easily could have cleared the rest of the zone, all the way to Emperor Vekn. Nobody died, & all mobs went down like tissue paper. Not one, not even any of the named, were an issue at all.I was parsing about ~500ish the entire time. The Mystic was parsing about ~2.7k, just behind the Coercer, while single healing the group. The Coercer was averaging around 3k. For me, however, it's not the parse that causes me to mention all this; it's the fact that I'm pretty sure they could have done as much of the dungeon as they did without me. Yes, my buffage *probably* made things a little easier; no, in no way was I "critical" to the group's success, or even truly instrumental.I'd like to further emphasize that I don't get "denied groups" because I'm a Troubie; to me, that implies me asking to join a group, & people saying, "No, we don't want a Troubie", which has never happened to me. Instead, I simply don't even get responses. If I were a Dirge, I'd be snapped up for heroic instances in seconds. As a Troubie, I'm simply ignored, & the reason I'm ignored is that melee DPS is over-powered at the highest end of this game, caster DPS is underpowered, & since Dirges buff melee far more than they do casters, they're also that much more popular in groups of all kinds than are Troubies.Kunaak & Jeepned are correct on this: if the Devs aren't going to fix caster DPS, or do something else to cause people to quit seeing melee as the Holy Grail of heroic instances, then Troubies are going to continue to be left out. I guess that's why they're letting us share our void shards now (a change I heartily oppose, BTW); I guess it's just easier to throw on a Band-Aid, then to fix the freekin' issue <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" />NB: fixing the freekin' issue does not entail making void shards soloable, making TSO instances "easier", making them doable by less than full groups, or any of the other "OMG it's tooooooo hard" suggestions that have been made since TSO went live. Fixing the issue means fixing Casters, which -- BTW -- also means a reduction in the number of forum threads pointing out quite valid issues in need of fixing. IMO, fixing casters should have taken priority over "fixing" hate generation/reduction.

speedycerv

01-22-2009, 02:45 PM

<cite>Tamarah wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ishidaa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aldelbert wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Althena@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Either:1. You suck2. People on your server suck.I'm inclined to think the latter because on Kithikor people have no problem grouping troubs - and honestly if you are in as good a guild as you imply why the hell would you bother with pick up groups?3rd option? You're just whining trying to get others nerfed to make yourself feel better and making up this "i cant get a group due to dirge/enchanger" drama. Since you are posting on the "in testing" forums this is quite possibly the real reason.</blockquote>My guild is a raid guild. The only time they even really log on is to raid then afterwards they might stick around to form cliqs to do a few zones with and I might get one group a day before they head back to sleep or to alts. I'm not sure how you classify this as whining when I brought up legitimate complaints. If I could post screenshots of people's responses that a dirge/illusionist > troubador then I would. I am posting this "in testing" because Alin's got nerfed which is a core Troubador ability on raids and in groups along with the fact the devs haven't even looked in the Troubador forums for litterally years at this point.</blockquote>Is this raid guild ur in on the test server? and are being denied groups on the test server? I don't think so. I played a troub for 3 years and people would only want a dirge over me if it was a mostly melee group, and even if it was they would take me usually if a dirge wasn't easily available. A detaunt proc isn't that bad, and this poster more than likely hasn't even played on test to try it out.</blockquote>People group on Test? I'm calling BS on this pooost.No...he, and many other non-straight DPS or chanter classes are second choice in group building. You having a few friends who felt sorry for you and grouping you 3 years agi doesn't change the current state of T8 group makeup.I'm not saying nerf "that class"...I am saying buff the poor troubies.</blockquote>I didn't say 3 years ago, I said for 3 years. In other words up till and including rok. Support classes are always always wanted over straight dps to the point where every group should have a bard and chanter if there were people to fill those spots

speedycerv

01-22-2009, 02:48 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ishidaa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I played a troub for 3 years and people would only want a dirge over me if it was a mostly melee group</blockquote>Most of the groups I've seen doing TSO have been very melee-heavy, & I've not once ever seen a TSO group asking for a Troubie -- but quite a few of them asking for Dirges.I don't know what it's like on the Test Server; I'm speaking of the live servers, right now. Are people forming more mage-oriented groups on the Test Server? If so, that would be helpful towards getting more groups for Troubies, but it would also raise the question of why they're forming them on Test, & not Live. IOW, what on Test has changed to make people want more mage-heavy groups? Just looking at the Test notes isn't showing anything obvious, so I'd appreciate it if a Test Server veteran could explain those things.I'd play on Test, but I barely have time to play on my Live Server as it is.</blockquote>That quote you made from me was in regard to live servers, so yes there are mage oriented groups, or groups with at least one mage in it, so that a troub would be more helpful than a dirge.

liveja

01-22-2009, 02:56 PM

<cite>Ishidaa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ishidaa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I played a troub for 3 years and people would only want a dirge over me if it was a mostly melee group</blockquote>Most of the groups I've seen doing TSO have been very melee-heavy, & I've not once ever seen a TSO group asking for a Troubie -- but quite a few of them asking for Dirges.I don't know what it's like on the Test Server; I'm speaking of the live servers, right now. Are people forming more mage-oriented groups on the Test Server? If so, that would be helpful towards getting more groups for Troubies, but it would also raise the question of why they're forming them on Test, & not Live. IOW, what on Test has changed to make people want more mage-heavy groups? Just looking at the Test notes isn't showing anything obvious, so I'd appreciate it if a Test Server veteran could explain those things.I'd play on Test, but I barely have time to play on my Live Server as it is.</blockquote>That quote you made from me was in regard to live servers, so yes there are mage oriented groups, or groups with at least one mage in it, so that a troub would be more helpful than a dirge.</blockquote>Yes, we all know that there are groups that have 1 Mage in them, along with 2 healers & 3 melee DPS. I'm sorry, but a group with 3 melee DPS & 1 Mage is, overall, going to get more benefit from a Dirge than a Troubie. Not sure why you think otherwise.This is what I've seen every day since TSO went live, coupled with "TSO group seeking DIRGE", with not one single time ever "TSO group seeking TROUBIE.If I ever once see a "mage oriented" TSO group, it will be the first time.

Kordran

01-22-2009, 03:41 PM

<cite>Ishidaa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>That quote you made from me was in regard to live servers, so yes there are mage oriented groups, or groups with at least one mage in it, so that a troub would be more helpful than a dirge.</blockquote>You're seriously experiencing some kind of break with reality, or you're playing in an alternate universe where mages don't have incredible resist rates against level 84+ mobs. A group with "a least one mage" doesn't warrant giving up a slot to a Troubador. Let's look at a hypothetical group makeup that is typically considered to be an ideal group build: Guardian, Templar, Dirge, Coercer, Swashbuckler, Assassin. Of course, there could be different tank, healer and DPS combinations, but in that, the Dirge and Coercer are pretty much constants as far as "preferred" classes are concerned. Illusionists come in a close second, but for the most part, anecdotal evidence and my own experience says that if given a choice, groups will tend to go for the Coercer.Now, in that build, how does replacing the Dirge with a Troubador benefit the group in any significant way? Will the group's DPS go up? No. How about survivability? No. Maybe the group will be more efficient, clearing zones faster? Nope, not that either. Having both a Dirge and a Troubador in the group? That just makes things worse because you're losing a T1 DPS class in the exchange, and the benefit is only primarily to the Coercer. (Edit: This isn't just a strawman argument either; you could put together virtually any kind of group build with a Fighter, Priest, Dirge, Enchanter and two melee DPS, and swapping out the Dirge with a Troubador is a net loss for the group).The only way that having a Troubador in that group would really make sense would be if it looked something like: Shadow Knight, Fury (or perhaps Defiler), Troubador, Coercer, Wizard, Warlock. Again, the tank and healer would be somewhat interchangeable, but arguably the fighter class that would benefit most from a Troubador would be the SK. And how many TSO groups have I been in, or have seen, that have this kind of build? Exactly zero. I'm not saying that they don't exist, but they're certainly not common.People don't prefer melee DPS for some arbitrary reason, like mages smelling funny. The way the game works now, resist rates severely impact the performance of casters against high level mobs. In one fight they can top the parse, the next, they're somewhere in the middle because they've gotten a chain of resists. They're high DPS, but that DPS is inconsistent and unreliable. On the other hand, melee DPS is much more reliable against higher level mobs, particularly ones that con orange, which is exactly what you'll find with named in the tougher TSO instances.There are certain instances where having mage DPS is very useful, such as a warlock when running Guk. But for the most part? Going strictly by the numbers, and all other things being roughly equal, a mage-heavy group in TSO instances is a liability, not an asset.

Darry

01-22-2009, 04:39 PM

I had a group yesterday with a coercer, troub, illusionist, all of whom were parsing over 6k consistently in Atrebe's (for you idiots the end mobs are 85 and most definetely orange). Resist rates were fine, my melee hit rates and the swash's hit rates were also lower than the mage/troub resist rates.TSO is fine for mages/troub as long as you're not crap at your class and have decent gear.Would I have prefered a melee group? Possibly for the first named, but everything dies so fast when you have good DPS, be it caster or melee, that it really doesn't make a difference.

Aule

01-23-2009, 07:02 AM

My ideal group is Shadowknight Coercer (me) Illusionist Dirge Troub InquisitorThough I often end up running withShadowknightCoercer (me)BrigandDirgeInquisitor-slot- -slot- turns into a defiler for outer or palace, troub preferred for anything else.

liveja

01-23-2009, 12:33 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>My ideal group is Shadowknight Coercer (me) Illusionist Dirge Troub Inquisitor</blockquote>I'd kill kittens for a group like that. Too bad I've never seen such a group <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Errolflynn

01-23-2009, 12:41 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>My ideal group is Shadowknight Coercer (me) Illusionist Dirge Troub Inquisitor</blockquote>I'd kill kittens for a group like that. Too bad I've never seen such a group <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /> Had this the other day.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />GuardDirgeIllyCoercerSwash (Me)Mystic.

liveja

01-23-2009, 01:49 PM

<cite>Errolflynn@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /> Had this the other day.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />GuardDirgeIllyCoercerSwash (Me)Mystic.</blockquote>I don't see a Troubie in that group, but curiously, with 2 casters & a healer to support, I'm still seeing a Dirge. Go figure, huh?

Aldelbert

01-23-2009, 04:06 PM

speedycerv

01-23-2009, 04:09 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ishidaa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ishidaa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I played a troub for 3 years and people would only want a dirge over me if it was a mostly melee group</blockquote>Most of the groups I've seen doing TSO have been very melee-heavy, & I've not once ever seen a TSO group asking for a Troubie -- but quite a few of them asking for Dirges.I don't know what it's like on the Test Server; I'm speaking of the live servers, right now. Are people forming more mage-oriented groups on the Test Server? If so, that would be helpful towards getting more groups for Troubies, but it would also raise the question of why they're forming them on Test, & not Live. IOW, what on Test has changed to make people want more mage-heavy groups? Just looking at the Test notes isn't showing anything obvious, so I'd appreciate it if a Test Server veteran could explain those things.I'd play on Test, but I barely have time to play on my Live Server as it is.</blockquote>That quote you made from me was in regard to live servers, so yes there are mage oriented groups, or groups with at least one mage in it, so that a troub would be more helpful than a dirge.</blockquote>Yes, we all know that there are groups that have 1 Mage in them, along with 2 healers & 3 melee DPS. I'm sorry, but a group with 3 melee DPS & 1 Mage is, overall, going to get more benefit from a Dirge than a Troubie. Not sure why you think otherwise.This is what I've seen every day since TSO went live, coupled with "TSO group seeking DIRGE", with not one single time ever "TSO group seeking TROUBIE.If I ever once see a "mage oriented" TSO group, it will be the first time.</blockquote>I appolgise, I wasn't very clear. What I mean to say is that if there is at least one mage in a group, there is a benefit that troubs have for them to be in the group. I'm not saying that if there are more melee that a dirge wouldn't be better. If people are only looking for a dirge they would take a troub if they were looking for a while (in my experience). Now maybe things have changed in TSO with the new AA's that changed this, though from looking at both of the bards AA's they both seem to have equally nice qualities.One theory to why you might see more dirges being picked, besides that you seem to only be seeing groups that are fully scout oriented, could be due to the stoneskin effect from harder hitting tso mobs and the fact that crit mit is needed to kill some group instance mobs for average gear players makes the stoneskin worth a lot more than anything a troub could offer. Now in my ROK and previous exp, the only real reason bards were wanted were for power regen (assuming they were lacking a chanter) and that was the primary reason. Obviously in madien's (back in beg. of ROK), RE2 and in TSO instances... mobs are rougher on damage.

Aule

01-23-2009, 04:43 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>My ideal group is Shadowknight Coercer (me) Illusionist Dirge Troub Inquisitor</blockquote>I'd kill kittens for a group like that. Too bad I've never seen such a group <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Yeah we've had 5 out of 6 on the top 10 for raid dps, with me and the sk coming in 1st and 2nd <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Need a few more aa's on the bards to get to mini-TC and mini-IA. The sk clears 100% DA with IA so the dirge'll get that and he'll get the mini-IA. I get TC and the Illy gets mini-TC (so he can taste his cake), and good times shall be had by all!

liveja

01-23-2009, 05:03 PM

<cite>Ishidaa@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>One theory to why you might see more dirges being picked, besides that you seem to only be seeing groups that are fully scout oriented, could be due to the stoneskin effect from harder hitting tso mobs and the fact that crit mit is needed to kill some group instance mobs for average gear players makes the stoneskin worth a lot more than anything a troub could offer.</blockquote>Precisely. Thus, the reason for seeing a group with a Guardian, Illy, Coercer, Mystic, Swashy, Dirge. One might think that a Troubie would be ideal for supporting the Illy, Coercer, & Mystic ... but, no. The Dirge brings tank survivability -- which in TSO translates to group success -- on a level a Troubie can't match. So, even in caster-oriented groups, there's an argument for bringing the Dirge instead of a Troubie.I'm honestly not sure what to suggest to get around the issue, either. It's not that Troubies are "broken", it's that Dirges are in many small ways more desirable for both grouping & raiding. But I'll keep it up, only because I'm stubborn enough to keep my Troubie <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kordran

01-23-2009, 05:13 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm honestly not sure what to suggest to get around the issue, either. It's not that Troubies are "broken", it's that Dirges are in many small ways more desirable for both grouping & raiding. But I'll keep it up, only because I'm stubborn enough to keep my Troubie <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I don't think there's really much that could be done with a stoneskin; the equivalent ability for the Troub is spell reflection, so tying a stoneskin to that would have Dirges demanding that percussion gets a spell reflect. One thing they could do is add Aggression skill to the Performer Avoidance line, that would at least be attractive to a tank, ensuring that his taunts won't be resisted (post GU51).

Asif

01-23-2009, 05:59 PM

We ran this group the other dayGuardAssassianIllyConjMysticTroub ( Me)We ran so many zones by the end of the runs we each had got 14 shards and we did not even do the DD.Only the Assassian had his Mythical.I never have a problem with finding groups but i dont do alot of pugs mostly guildies but do some and have never been asked to sit for a dirge.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hmm after watching PUGS more over the last couple days i have to say YES dirges are now wanted way more than Troubs i have seen Troubs being turned down for Dirges in Pugs.Something does need to be be done to change this trend, there is not enough Troubs out there as is and if this keeps going on there will be less!!!!This problem falls on the Dev to fix this .

Aldelbert

01-25-2009, 01:55 PM

Moved my Troubador to Antonia Bayle and spent nearly 4 hours searching desperately for a group but being told by many the only way I was going to get one is to betray to Dirge so I'm doing just that now. I'm noticing that many raid guilds aren't even taking Troubadors anymore due to some of the TSO designed fights being unfriendly towards mages. Particularly with massive damage unavoidable AEs. SoE needs to do something *now* to make the general population realize that Troubadors and Mages (Minus Enchanters) aren't worthless.

Kordran

01-25-2009, 02:16 PM

<cite>Asif wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something does need to be be done to change this trend, there is not enough Troubs out there as is and if this keeps going on there will be less!!!!</blockquote>I've got to ask, there's not enough Troubadors for what, exactly? Dirges are preferred for most TSO instances, so there's not the high demand for them there. A raid force needs just one Troubador for the mage group; the MT, OT and scout groups benefit more from a Dirge. So where is there this pent-up demand that isn't being fulfilled? I don't see it. If anything, there are more Troubadors out there than there are group/raid slots available to them.

Azekah1

01-26-2009, 06:51 PM

I guess I'm glad I rolled a dirge...Oh yea...you troubs can always betray <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />

Ceolus

01-26-2009, 11:15 PM

<cite>Anasur@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have difficulty feeling sorry for you troubs when my main is an inquis, sorry. How many raid spots did you say you had?</blockquote>Who's not giving inquis a raid spot?

liveja

01-27-2009, 11:50 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>So where is there this pent-up demand that isn't being fulfilled? I don't see it.</blockquote>Thus, the point of the thread.I've been told it "gets better" at level 80, but due to my experience with my 80 Swashy in TSO instances, I'm dubious.

Aldelbert

01-28-2009, 12:04 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>So where is there this pent-up demand that isn't being fulfilled? I don't see it.</blockquote>Thus, the point of the thread.I've been told it "gets better" at level 80, but due to my experience with my 80 Swashy in TSO instances, I'm dubious.</blockquote>It might get better but it definately won't be right now. If you made a bard with the intention of grouping frequently like I did then re-roll or betray to a Dirge until there's a scout revamp which may take a very long time between how GU51 and GU52 is being handled. It'll save you a lot of group searching time in the end.Only way to stay Troubador is if you're a masochist that loves the class or you want a raid slot that badly but you'll need a mythical first to be considered an asset to most raids. A lot of raids lately are shifting to be melee only with enchanters being the only mages so even that's dubious now.