So when do we actually become defensive tanks? After everyone quits?

[Prestissimo]

<p>We have at least *semi* comperable taunts to guardians, and it is *possible* to become just as surviveable as a guardian, but considering that paladins have been held back in all categories to compensate for having the amazingly powerfull amends, does that mean now that it is being taken away that we'll finally get something to change our paper tank status?</p><p>The developers should seriously take one of each tank class, fit them in straight master crafted gear ONLY (dizok or incarnadine, I don't care) with straight Adept 1 spells, and take the different tank classes out for a spin to see just how they do.  Adept 1 and master crafted gear in my opinion would be "average", or you could take it a step further and put them into handcrafted gear.  Why would the developers include handcrafted tank gear in the game if no one was ever intended to use it?  I'm pretty sure all of us know what will happen, but seeing as Aeralik and many other developers have no idea just what they are doing to the class, they should probably either see for themselves or in my opinion not mess with it because they don't understand it.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>Additionally, as a side note I have a question to any of the developers.  As far as I know Aeralik is the one that decided to make paladins defensive, but if I am mistaken, it would be really cool to hear from the one or few that decided that this was the best route to take the paladin down.  If possible please provide any answers or reasoning or help that you are willing to provide behind any of the following questions because I'm very confused on the whole matter.  Even a couple of hints or answers would be extremely helpful because the entire community of paladins seem to be completely lost on the reasoning behind making paladins single target tanks.</p><p>If the paladin is going to be a "Defensive" single target tank, why are the shadowknight end line abilities in the TSO tree better for defense and for surviving than ours?  Why are the end line abilities in the paladin tree consisting of one heal that isn't worth getting since it's more power consumption and equal to our single target heal, one shield ability (which is available on almost all crusader gear, and i'm sure will be given a cap if it doesn't have one already and prevent us from using all of it), and 2 aoe abilities? </p><p>Considering the paladin and shadowknight are the ONLY tanks without defensive bonuses on their epic weapons, that would logically imply that the berzerker, guardian, monk, and bruiser are more defensive oriented than the paladin, and the paladin is equally as offensive as the shadowknight.  Why also are the "Defensive" tanks the ones with the lowest allocation of total stats on their epic weapons considering that they are the only ones that use all of them equally, and they also have the lowest defensive stats out of all the tanks when they are apparently the defensive tanks and additionally the ones that are currently in the need of them the most?  Why do the defensive tanks have less health than the berzerker, guardian, monk, and bruiser especially considering that their stamina is lower than ALL of the tanks even though it is the stat responsible for survivability and health total?  Why on the mythical weapon does the "Defensive" tank have an offensive spell and combat art bonus when the idea is to be taunting rather than dpsing in tank mode, and in the mean time the "Offensive" berzerker as well as everyone else spare the shadowknight has either deflection or shield effectiveness?</p><p>I can see the guard being equally defensive, and monks and bruisers need anything they can get to mitigate damage and survive attacks since their leather is hurting their defense compared to plate, but come on.  If the berzerker gets a defensive bonus and more defensive stats, what divine secret of developer knowledge are we missing to explain why the "Defensive" tank get less defensive tools than any other tank spare for the shadowknight's mythical?  The shadowknight is supposed to be the most offensive of the tanks and therefore SHOULD have offensive abilities, yet the paladin is almost identically offensive if you don't count that it is lower in all categories other than health.</p><p>Why are the "Defensive" tanks using an "Offensive" threat proc on their defensive stance?  Why does the "Defensive" tank get custom tailored items that not only get shared with their offensive counterparts, but even the few rewards and items that are paladin specific have equally as much offensive stats as defensive and have offensive and damage bonuses, yet nothing at all for defense?  Where is the additional defensive AA abilities in the crusader tree considering that one crusader is offensive, and the other is defensive?  Almost the entire tree is either offensive, or completely worthless such as the agility line which even if you were inclined to get, the defensive single target tank would have to get an offensive multi-mob ability to get to the defensive one that is based around offensive action?  The only defensive ability on the crusader tree that actually does anything is the 10 second invulnerability to anything less than 50% health, and that is much much more valueable when multi-mob tanking weaker enemies than single target tanking strong enemies.</p><p>On the TSO paladin section, the only thing that helps us defensively is the increase to a buff thats going to be merged into our defensive line, and a minor increase to our group heals rather than our ward (the only defensive heal we have).  Unfortunately, we wont have hardly any time to cast while tanking though, because we will need to constantly be taunting and offensively attacking due to our not so "passive" hate gain is based on offense.</p><p>Theres more, but I think this is enough to cover in one post.  I'm confused on why the entire class is based on offense, and you are going to arbitrarily flip the focus to defense but without actually making the focus defense.  If you were to flip the paladin into defense mode, and make their abilities defense oriented it wouldn't be as confusing.  Why are you chosing to leave them offense based with a defense focus?  It seems very contradictory.</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<p>1) What are you smoking? There is no way a paladin can be geared to be as survivable as a guardian.  Just compare their spike damage abilities / saves.</p><p>2) Arellik didn't say defensive, he said single target.  Well nerfing our aoe threat ability sure took care of that.</p>

[AziBam]

<p>Hrm.  Paladin mythical is a great def weap.  Whatever other concerns pallies may have I just can't see that as being one of them.</p><p><span ><li>When Equipped: <ul><li>Reduces all physical damage done to target by 10% </li><li>When the Paladin takes damage they will heal themselves for 10% of the damage amount. </li></ul>That right there is darn nice.  Just sayin. </li></span></p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>That is only there to counter the fact that absolutely nothing else in the entire existance of the paladin is defensive.  Because oddly enough, we use to be offensive tanks with no defense.  Now we're just gimped as crap single target tanks that are "defensive" minus the defense part.</p><p>Our mythical is nice for that one and only fact in itself, but that part was only to paper over the fact that without that one feature, our mythical weapon is not even worth having.</p>

[Wurm]

<p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hrm. Paladin mythical is a great def weap. Whatever other concerns pallies may have I just can't see that as being one of them.</p><p><span><li>When Equipped: <ul><li>Reduces all physical damage done to target by 10% </li><li>When the Paladin takes damage they will heal themselves for 10% of the damage amount. </li></ul>That right there is darn nice. Just sayin. </li></span></p></blockquote><p>Yeah and all us Pallys have one of those... oh wait.</p><p>You mean all Paladins are in raid guilds that can do the content needed or have better yet paid mad plat to lay on the entrance hall floor dead waiting on an update to those guilds that can?</p><p>No. Just Sayin.</p>

[Troubor]

<p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hrm.  Paladin mythical is a great def weap.  Whatever other concerns pallies may have I just can't see that as being one of them.</p><p><span><li>When Equipped: <ul><li>Reduces all physical damage done to target by 10% </li><li>When the Paladin takes damage they will heal themselves for 10% of the damage amount. </li></ul>That right there is darn nice.  Just sayin. </li></span></p></blockquote><p>Haven't read every post, so my answer will reflect that. </p><p>Anyway, assuming someone else hasn't also pointed this out, not every paladin has their mythical.  I do, and have had it since June 2008 (I think, bit tired..maybe it was July.  <chuckles>  Know it was one of the two months).  But, it's not like every Paladin does.  Sure, you can answer "Oh, well if they raid they either should have it, or should be on their way to having it soon.".  Well, IMO that's not quite true, but even if that is "true", why should class changes ONLY be for raiding?  Or even if people can only see raiding as the only end game thing to do, why should class changes hinge on only one item?</p><p>I do love my mythical.  Wonderful weapon.  If/when we hit level 90 cap they will have to have something amazingly nice to replace it even then before I'd swap it out.  Hopefully there will be an upgrade quests for epics whenever they raise the cap, if/when they do.  But no class should be so dependant on gear that it's the only way they can be effective as a tank, raid or group.  If that is our hidden "defensive ability", then that basically shafts any Paladin without their mythical, and of course any Paladin below 80th then.</p><p>They have this misguided vision of single target tank and AE tank.  Absurd, but fine.  Why each tank shouldn't have different ways of doing about the same thing, I don't know..would make it so one has more variety in picking whom to tank for your raid or group, but whatever.  Our wonderful developer sniffed his glue, ate his lead paint chips and came up with this.  But if we're to be about on par with Guardians, what do we have to be single target tanks.  And for those of us, which I'm sure is a good percentage of us, who are OT's for a raid guild or alliance, what have they done to make it so we can still do such (without betraying to SK, I don't wish to do that at all, nor will I) if need be?</p><p>Well..I guess all I can do is wait and see, as I keep saying, to see if I can still do my job as OT.  "Single target" tank or not, that is my job in the guild I raid with.  If I can still do that job as well as I could before this absurd castration of our class, then okay.  I will give it a couple weeks to be sure, I know such an absurd change might just need adjustment time.  But if not..well...I won't just say "I'll quit", since who knows.  Too many times people say that, then end up not doing it.  But I'll just say I won't quite be impressed for starters, and go from there.  If I can't function as OT...it will be amusing to say the least to see what happens.  I know I don't want to be MT, period.  I shouldn't HAVE to be just because one developer sniffed too much glue one day and did these changes.</p>

[AziBam]

<p>Lol.  Wurm and Troubor,  I was just responding to the OPs assertion that the paladin mythical had no Defensive stats when in fact it is one of the strongest of all the fighter weapons in that regard.  I'm not claiming it is widely carried by the general paladin population or anything else for that matter.</p><p>Passive hate on your DEF stance?  Heck yeah that's something you need like the other tanks.</p><p>Tweak divine aura? (which of course would benefit both crusaders) Remove or reduce penalties on divine favor?  Get rid of the new power cost on LoH?  Throw a HoT onto LoH so it gives the burst save plus some duration effect?  Some form of temp mitigation buff? I'm sure lots of other ideas or possibilities are there too.</p><p>Again, I never said or implied that things were perfect.  I just noted one gross inaccuracy.  That stuff just doesn't help at all.</p>

[Wurm]

<p>Its cool Azi, and you are right, sorry I misunderstood your point.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>I was more refering to everything else about the mythical weapon besides the "when equipped".  Mainly the defensive stats and blue bonuses or rather the lack there of.</p><p>In my opinion that damage reduction is the only thing that allows anyone to even call it our epic weapon and makes it special otherwise I might as well go weild a <a href="aITEM -254488928 1236381490:Nathsar Shortsword/a" target="_blank">Nathsar Shortsword</a> and save myself all of that raid time and trouble for the same weapon.  If we're not supposed to do hardly any damage, that removes the purpose of the melee crit, combat art/spell damage and the damage proc, as well as the damage part of the spell bonus, and the attack rating.  The clickie dies after one aoe, so it's basically designed to make the mob laugh while we tickle it with our soon to be horrible dps, and that leaves nothing left on it other than huge pain in the butt to get it, and the damage reduction and the mythical tag.  If thats all they're going to give us for our class altering weapon of insane overpowered porportions and pretend that it matches the assassins, or the wizards, or any other mythical, then they might as well just make it an adornment reward that can be applied at will and gives the reduction/mythical tag so we can stick it on the weapon with our perfered appearance.</p><p>But you are right that it is a nice defensive ability.  I forgot about it while I was trying to point out that the defensive tanks class defining weapon has absolutely nothing defense oriented on it other than that one common tank mythical effect that is just slightly stronger than the others.</p>