FYI: HUGE Troub Deaggro NERF in LU51

[Gargamel]

<p><img src="http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/583/alinsbt8.jpg" width="301" height="592" /></p><p>Ok, so instead of a 30% reduction in hate to the group, its nerfed down to 8%.  There is a lame proc on it that even master level does a 1000 dehate proc 2 and half times PER MINUTE."On Successful attack" instead of "On any attack" means it does not proc of spells.Even off melee it only procs off main hand weapon.</p><p>Also its useless, considering A 10k Assassin produces 600.000 Hate per Minute, so that extra 2600 dehate that procs is insignificant.</p><p>I have no idea what the devs are thinking, or why they felt that troubs needed to take such a huge hit, with nothing to replace it (dirges got transfer nerf, but buff on base for their aggro management).  Obviously the tanks that took hits got stuff in return as well.  Guess troub has to wait until 'scout' revamp to actually get some love. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p>

[ganjookie]

<p>Are the tanks not getting things done to create aggro with def stance and taunts now?  If so...</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p><cite>Kithap@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Are the tanks not getting things done to create aggro with def stance and taunts now?  If so...</p></blockquote><p>They are getting a large jump in thier aggro abilities, but not near enough to keep a mob off someone parsing 8K plus. We are going to have to get some new names for some of the classes:</p><p>Assassin will be changed to Dirt Eater.</p><p>Swashbuckler will be changed to Sludge Swimmer</p><p>Wizards will be changed to Charcoal</p><p>Joking aside, several people have crunched the numbers and the new aggro amount of a raid equiped guardian falls something like 40% too low to keep a raid equiped Assassin from pulling aggro if both go all out. Will be fun to watch. Definitely saving my JC for myself so I can use my tinkered FD item more often. (Which doesn't work as aften as I'd like due to all the AoE spells that mobs now cast. I FD and still die <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Tamar]

<p><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Joking aside, several people have crunched the numbers and the new aggro amount of a raid equiped guardian falls something like 40% too low to keep a raid equiped Assassin from pulling aggro if both go all out. Will be fun to watch. Definitely saving my JC for myself so I can use my tinkered FD item more often. (Which doesn't work as aften as I'd like due to all the AoE spells that mobs now cast. I FD and still die <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Crunching numbers is often wasted work due to a missing or unknown part of the formula...</p><p>Don't get me wrong, I agree that SOE doing this kind of "fix" this late in the game ( >4 years ) is odd...but from what I hear from people who have "crunched numbers" the real way, by using Test Copy, the changes are in general good, and that the aggro issue that might seem "obvious" by looking at only numbers is not quite as severe as theorized by the Calculator Militia.</p><p>And here is another thought...which probably would not be shared by many others...but maybe, just maybe, the game design shouldn't be such that the highest DPS class in the game can just go balls to the wall without dying.  Maybe, just maybe, part of playing a pure DPS class, or any class for that matter, should be trying to do all that you can ~without~ dying and that such burden is in your hands.  I like the idea of an added dimension to the game...aggro management...because face it, right now, with the current game setup, aggro is easy shmeazy for those who know how to stack the groups.  But then again...I also like shard runs, group debt, and actually needing to do access quests to go places.  So my thoughts are probably crap to most...</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p><cite>Tamarah wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Crunching numbers is often wasted work due to a missing or unknown part of the formula...<p>Don't get me wrong, I agree that SOE doing this kind of "fix" this late in the game ( >4 years ) is odd...but from what I hear from people who have "crunched numbers" the real way, by using Test Copy, the changes are in general good, and that the aggro issue that might seem "obvious" by looking at only numbers is not quite as severe as theorized by the Calculator Militia. <span style="color: #00ccff;">First of all, I ain't smart enough to be a numbers cruncher. I was just going by what I had been told.</span></p><p>And here is another thought...which probably would not be shared by many others...but maybe, just maybe, the game design shouldn't be such that the highest DPS class in the game can just go balls to the wall without dying.  Maybe, just maybe, part of playing a pure DPS class, or any class for that matter, should be trying to do all that you can ~without~ dying and that such burden is in your hands.  I like the idea of an added dimension to the game...aggro management...because face it, right now, with the current game setup, aggro is easy shmeazy for those who know how to stack the groups.<span style="color: #00ccff;"> Yes, but here is one of the problems, among many. The way that raid mobs are set up, you have to have a very large raid DPS to defeat that mob. A perfect example is Trakanon. You have 10 mins to kill him before the platform lowers into the lava killing everyone. With the big hitters now having to hold off, especially in the new raid zones, some of these mobs are going to be completely impassable to most of the raid guilds out there. Not sure how the new self deaggro is going to work for the Wizards, is it a short term spell that now has to be included into the spell rotation (lowering DPS even more) or is it a cast and forget debuff (which I hope for they're sake it is). Either way, the level 88 mobs in the new raid zones are highly resistant to taunts and debuffs, so the heavy hitters will have to wait for who knows how long before they can really start ripping into a mob. This will seriously reduce thier DPS. What they will probably do is what they always do, nerf the mobs of course. How many people are going to die in the first month of this change because they where so busy watching the Aggro Meter they missing a problem in thier Detrimental window? There are some dots that do 5-9K one me PER tick, and missing even one tick is the differece between getting off that cure pot and dying. And yes, stacking the groups are part of raiding, always has been since early EQ1. Crappy raid setup = a crappy raid night and large repair bills.</span>  But then again...I also like shard runs, <span style="color: #00ccff;">Hate them myself since I don't do PUGs</span> group debt <span style="color: #00ccff;">never understood why this wasn't the way it always was from day one. If one dies, we should all share in that loss. </span>, and actually needing to do access quests to go places<span style="color: #00ccff;"> As long as they aren't super long and mindless. One's like the access quests for Clockwork Menance zone was more to my liking. </span>  So my thoughts are probably crap to most... <span style="color: #00ccff;">Not really, you're points are well taken and yes aggro issues have been out of control for a long time. SoE has forced us into a system of max DPS at all times with the raid scipts they have put out over the years. A lot of big hitters (Assassins, Swashys, Brigands, Rangers and Wizards) are going to be really unhappy for a month or two or more with all the dirt eating they will being doing once this comes out. Just about everyone except the bards are going to have to learn how to play thier toons differently because of this, even healers. With the DPSers not going nuts at the pull, the Mystics and Defilers are going to be way up on the hate list at the beginning, so this will be a real interesting GU for them too.</span></p></blockquote><p>Responded in blue instead of red so as to make sure you knew wasn't upset with your statements <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[ganjookie]

<p><cite>Tamarah wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Joking aside, several people have crunched the numbers and the new aggro amount of a raid equiped guardian falls something like 40% too low to keep a raid equiped Assassin from pulling aggro if both go all out. Will be fun to watch. Definitely saving my JC for myself so I can use my tinkered FD item more often. (Which doesn't work as aften as I'd like due to all the AoE spells that mobs now cast. I FD and still die <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Crunching numbers is often wasted work due to a missing or unknown part of the formula...</p><p>Don't get me wrong, I agree that SOE doing this kind of "fix" this late in the game ( >4 years ) is odd...but from what I hear <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>from people who have "crunched numbers" the real way, by using Test Copy, the changes are in general good</strong></span>, and that the aggro issue that might seem "obvious" by looking at only numbers is not quite as severe as theorized by the Calculator Militia.</p><p>And here is another thought...which probably would not be shared by many others...<span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>but maybe, just maybe, the game design shouldn't be such that the highest DPS class in the game can just go balls to the wall without dying. </strong></span> Maybe, just maybe, part of playing a pure DPS class, or any class for that matter, should be trying to do all that you can ~without~ dying and that such burden is in your hands.  I like the idea of an added dimension to the game...aggro management...because face it, right now, with the current game setup, aggro is easy shmeazy for those who know how to stack the groups.  But then again...<span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>I also like shard runs, group debt, and actually needing to do access quests to go places.  So my thoughts are probably crap to most...</strong></span></p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>Play smarter, and dont button mash.</p>

[aelder~]

<p>Let's assume for the sake of argument that it gets well balanced in Testing (don't hold your breathe, I know) and tanks can hold aggro if assasin is also using all his de-aggros etc.  Basically tank and assasin are more responsible for managing the hate balance between them.</p><p>That's fine, but it also means that role and importance of the troubador just shrank, again.  And in return we were given... oh, wait...</p>

[Chisa]

<p>WoW this would not irretate me so much if it didnt ONLY proc with melee.  I mean really come on now SoE you really screwed Troub over heck even more than you did dirge.  At least they still find some use out of the spell.</p>

[Rayche]

<p>It does sound like people will need to manage their own aggro better, which is good.</p><p>What concerns me is that raidwide parses will lower, but encounters will remain designed against a raid that's parsing balls to the wall.</p><p><em>"Burn down the named, but every 15 seconds 2 adds will spawn and charge the healers and make the main tank unable to target anything.... "</em></p>

[Chisa]

<p>What bothers me is they made this spell litteraly useless for Troubs.</p>

[Trabbart]

<p>We also LOST a big part of healer aggro managementl.</p><p>Old spell also gave the higher percentage and deaggro on being hit to healers  and unless "any attack" includes healing they will not have deaggro procs.</p><p>So we offer yet again less to healers.</p><p>I dont remember that i signed up to be abused when i had to make my subclass decision way back when.</p>