future troub revamp [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Dolorian

01-16-2009, 12:20 PM

better queue this now, in hopes of not being left, again, at the bottom of the ever increasing "to do" pile.Bugs :Countersong and Jester's Cap - If you cast CS during the gap that the mob starts to cast the spell but has not completed the cast yet, then it removes from the mob but does not decrease the spell/CA, thus being completely wasted. 2 ways to fix: Either reduce cast time of CS to be very small so this has a small probability of happening, or make CS so it is not removed on these situations so it can be applied on the mob's next spell/CA.Same issue with JC, 2 troubs, and the same target.Harmonizations [Immunities and Durations] - Every spell with an immunity is affected by duration increasers. This applies to Harmonizations for Troubadors because it makes immunities last longer (manaburn, lifeburn, gravitas, etc). Not all Songs are Uninterruptible - Sonic Interference (End AA from Sonic's EoF AA Line) and Sonnet (Charm Spell) are currently interruptible and cannot be cast while moving. Sonic Interference Buffs enemy DoT's - Sonic Interference reduces duration of spells by 30%. The bug occurs that it actually also SPEEDS DoT DURATIONS UP, meaing that the DoT occurs faster.Power song and dktm - the buffs drop when certain classes (enchanters/other bards) are put into and out of the groupTSO 4 and 6 set boni - The 4 set bonus cancels the focus effect on the legendary void shard bp "hollow aura"The 6 set focus on jester's cap dosn't add heal crit bonus. -> fixedIssues :Power Ballad - a change is needed to actually regen mana at a meaningful rate.As it stands right now about any power procing item out there is more efficent.Power Depleter - Is this the only class that still has a (tiny) power depleter attached to two abilities ? The basic CAas well as the Vexing verses power depleting debuff. It's not even a drain, only depletes target's power ( supposedely, and for what it's worth anyway now )Buffs - having to cast 16 buffs after each death...The fact that all classes have apporximately the same number of spells and that troubs have 11 spell lines dedicated to buffs leaves troubs with very few non passive tools. Making the in game experience dull.Even worse, players now can have access to those buffs through gear, thus reducing the effectivness and novelty of bard buffs.Stealth Stab - Give some other ability than Bump or AA abilities that puts us into stealth. Having to spec your AA's a certain way to make a non-AA CA feasible to use is weak. Or change the stealth stab, the image of a bard with a stealth attack is awfull anyway.TSO armour - Benevolent alacrity 3 , [Removed for Content]? , 3% casting speed on beneficial spells for those 16 buffs and the two in combat beneficial spells troubs have? Because 3% cast time bonus on a 1 sec cast time 30 sec recast and a 2 sec cast time 2 minute recast is so so usefull, you wouldn't even notice it with a stopwatch.Dexterous sonata - Crit bonus is far from being as efficient as it first might seem given it has no incidence on the max damage +1 rule. And guess what the new bard buff gives 10 crit bonus. Hourray for another barely usefull buff to cast.Solo ability - pre AA templar like, almost, no kidding, try it with treasured gear, don't forget the anti-stress pills.Heroic group desirabilty - about the same as a third healer, the other support classes have nothing to fear.Harmonizing shot - uselss skill, useless damage + useless 400 threat increaser. With the fighter revamp you've seen how much threat a tank needs so 800 threat per minute is just useless.And it's a bow attack, most bards today will use the ethernaut drum symbol over a bow.Debuffs - they need a revamp, and vexing verses is supposed to burn a mob's power and health, well i'm still waiting on that health damage. The two decent ones are the bard mana resist debuff and the scout resist debuff.Deagro - aggro reducing, jester's cap and perfection of the maestro define a troub, without those, troubs will not be in a min/maxers group/raid setup. And to fix fighters, the aggro managment was nerfed to crumbs. Two to go.It is funny how potm defines the class, whereas Frigid gift, fanatical devotion or PoM are just extra spells.Shows how few noticable abilities a troub has.

Boli32

01-16-2009, 01:30 PM

<cite>Ophidius@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dexterous sonata - Crit bonus is far from being as efficient as it first might seem given it has no incidence on the max damage +1 rule. And guess what the new bard buff gives, 10 crit bonus. Hourray for another barely usefull buff to cast.</blockquote>That ability r0x <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Its harder to notice on troubs but I can assure you that +10 crit bonus is something that I really notice the difference on raids <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

liveja

01-16-2009, 01:48 PM

<cite>Ophidius@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solo ability - pre AA templar like, almost, no kidding, try it with treasured gear, don't forget the anti-stress pills.</blockquote>I have a 72 Troubie in a combination of MC & Treasured gear. I would never say that this character solos "as well" as my Conjy -- much less my Swashy -- but I will say I have vastly more fun soloing the Troubie than I do the Conjy, & almost as much as I do with the Swashy.The Troubie has more "o crap" abilities than the Conjy, & unlike the Swashy, isn't limited to "sneak & stab", but instead can kite much better while soloing, if the situation requires.The Troubie is also vastly more enjoyable in a group than the Conjy is, but geez, I could say that about practically any other class <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm not saying Troubies have no issues, & I'm glad you posted the ones you did, as they need to be looked at. In particular, I'm increasingly concerned about my ability to find groups at level 80, if my guildies aren't on. My experience is that TSO groups are far more interested in a Dirge than a Troubie, because most groups I've seen put together are much more melee-heavy. I'm only commenting on the soloing issue, because in my experience, my Troubie solos just fine.

Dolorian

01-16-2009, 02:21 PM

The summoner playstyle is a matter of preference,i personnaly hated it as well because i found it way too easyafter having a troub as a main since DoF. But some of my friends love it.I want a dev to test a troub with RoK instanced gear against the skyfire solo namedsand the golems in the temple of ice. With ad3 spells and a maximum of 140 AAs.I want them to test side by side the time it takes for a troub to do a writ andthe time it takes enchanters / healers.And then come back and say that the difficulty level is working as intended.With defilers when it comes to soloing effectivness ( boring mobs to death ftw ! )Being the least desired support class for heroic content.The best raid setup dosn't have more than 2 troubs.Something is rotten in the kingdom of everquest2 and it's more than time to fix it.

Aule

01-16-2009, 04:58 PM

<cite>Ophidius@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dexterous sonata - Crit bonus is far from being as efficient as it first might seem given it has no incidence on the max damage +1 rule. And guess what the new bard buff gives 10 crit bonus. Hourray for another barely usefull buff to cast.Heroic group desirabilty - about the same as a third healer, the other support classes have nothing to fear.It is funny how potm defines the class, whereas Frigid gift, fanatical devotion or PoM are just extra spells.</blockquote>Not all spells have a wide gab to take advantage of the max+1 rule. Many spells the minimum damage x 1.3 is higher than the max damage +1. Look at Coercer spells for example:1220 int, all spells Master I wearing 0 spell mod and with 0% hostile spell mod: <table cellspacing="0" frame="void" rules="groups"><colgroup span="1"></colgroup><colgroup span="1"><col span="1" width="131"></col><col span="1" width="86"></col><col span="1" width="86"></col><col span="1" width="86"></col><col span="1" width="86"></col></colgroup>Couldn't get the columns to line up perfect, sorry.<colgroup span="1"></colgroup><tbody><tr><td width="131" height="17" align="left"></td><td width="86" align="left"> Min</td><td width="86" align="left"> Max</td><td width="86" align="left">Min x 1.3</td><td width="86" align="center">1.3>max+1?</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Hemorrhage</td><td align="right">653</td><td align="right">883</td><td align="right">848.9</td><td align="center">No</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Master Strike</td><td align="right">2566</td><td align="right">3137</td><td align="right">3335.8</td><td align="center">Yes</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Brainshock</td><td align="right">353</td><td align="right">430</td><td align="right">458.9</td><td align="center">Yes</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Asylum</td><td align="right">257</td><td align="right">314</td><td align="right">334.1</td><td align="center">Yes</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Forceful Headache</td><td align="right">642</td><td align="right">1070</td><td align="right">834.6</td><td align="center">No</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Hostage</td><td align="right">1094</td><td align="right">1337</td><td align="right">1422.2</td><td align="center">Yes</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Spell Curse</td><td align="right">867</td><td align="right">1059</td><td align="right">1127.1</td><td align="center">Yes</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Shock Wave</td><td align="right">2138</td><td align="right">3564</td><td align="right">2779.4</td><td align="center">No</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Ego Melt</td><td align="right">990</td><td align="right">1210</td><td align="right">1287</td><td align="center">Yes</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Diss Gaze</td><td align="right">238</td><td align="right">291</td><td align="right">309.4</td><td align="center">Yes</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Intrepid Focus</td><td align="right">1135</td><td align="right">1386</td><td align="right">1475.5</td><td align="center">Yes</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Absolute Silence</td><td align="right">662</td><td align="right">809</td><td align="right">860.6</td><td align="center">Yes</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Abs Sil Tick</td><td align="right">221</td><td align="right">270</td><td align="right">287.3</td><td align="center">Yes</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Tyrannous Mind</td><td align="right">1155</td><td align="right">1411</td><td align="right">1501.5</td><td align="center">Yes</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Bewilderment</td><td align="right">1185</td><td align="right">2201</td><td align="right">1540.5</td><td align="center">No</td></tr><tr><td height="17" align="left">Auspex</td><td align="right">871</td><td align="right">1065</td><td align="right">1132.3</td><td align="center">Yes</td></tr></tbody></table>The spells that are not from the start boosted past max+1 with a crit are hemorrhage, shock wave, and bewilderment. Forceful headache doesn't count as it is a meaningless portion of damage.Hemorrhage typically comes in 4th or 5th place for damage for a coercer, even though the spell is low damage the fast casting and the short reuse of 3.0s base results in the spell being available for cast with constant frequency. So let's look at hemorrhage results for someone with my gear situation:My normal tank is an SK so I'm including his buffs.Base damage 653 to 883Adjusted by 15% int line, 10% choker, 5% palace ring, 4% tso t2 shoulder, 5% sk buff, 10% mage tso aaBase x 1.54 = 1006 to 1360Crit boost gains 10% mage tso aa, 2% cloak, 5% tso cap abilityMin hit 1006 x 1.47 crit = 1478, this exceeds the max+1 so is pure gainHow much does dexterous sonata affect this?1.47 = 1478 to 1999, avg 1738.5 avg crit1.57 = 1579 to 2135, avg 1857.0 avg critDifference of 118.5With 100% cast haste Hemorrhage is 0.5s cast time, add in 0.34s recovery time from 8 points in Chronomotion and you have a time to cast of 0.84s. 118.5 average difference divided by 0.84s cast time = 141 damage per second. This spell ranks about 8th on the DPS priority for Coercers, so there's 7 other spells getting a better gain than this.This is with 0 spell mod, the actual result is higher as spell mod is easy to max on this spell and the crit boost affects spell mod damage with the spell revisions to TSO expansion.This brings us to HEROIC GROUP DESIRABILITYEven if I have a dirge already, I will bring a troub with me before I will bring another mage. Doubling up on fortissimo, dexterous sonata, don't kill the messenger, etc is huge. Again, that's huge. The majority of players have not obtained full system mastery of their class, the likelihood of finding such in a pickup group is small, but it happens. The average gain to the group provided by a bard of either class is typically higher than that of your mediocre-average scout or mage. I'll pick a 1k bard over a 2k mage/scout every day of the week.A good player of any class brings value to their group. (Edit: formatting fixing)

Melli

01-16-2009, 06:33 PM

<cite>Ophidius@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Being the least desired support class for heroic content.The best raid setup dosn't have more than 2 troubs.</blockquote>You're complaining 'cause troubs only get 2 slots on a raid? There are lots of classes that don't even get 1 slot on raid, or only get 1 slot. In a 24 man raid setup, having more than 2 slots would be even more imbalanced.As far as heroic content goes, I can't speak to the situation on your server. Our troubs have no trouble with groups.Bards in general are gods of the end game. If spells are broken, I certainly hope they fix them for you - but more utility and more raid slots seems like a bit much.

Aule

01-16-2009, 06:58 PM

It wouldn't be absolutely ideal, but you could probably get away with having 7 bards and 7 enchanters on a raid and still do good dps. Say that about any other class.

Dolorian

01-16-2009, 08:30 PM

when a class has a hard time dealing with solo mobs and is not really wanted in groups ( heroic content )you would think that it is a mandatory class in regards of raiding.If you min/max you do not want two bruisers in a raid, then again a bruiser is a decent tank, a decent dps,a great soloer, and with the recent changes, a more than decent utility class( 5% raid wide deagro, compared to the 8% group deagro of a troub )And again folks are confusing troubs with bards, a troub brings a lot less utility than a dirge.To Harowen, only fortissimo AA and the bard +8 (max) casting speed AA stack.Dexterous sonata is a bard buff, so you might as well take the dirge instead of the troub.The day a bard will bring less to a group than another class ( this is allready subject of debate)the base concept of the bard will need to be reworked.And to aule, what is the recast of hemorrhage ?Because to me it seems your calculations considered it was a spell withan instant recast.

Faelgalad

01-16-2009, 08:56 PM

1. Damage Scaling T6+ Spells/Combat ArtsFrom Level 51 damage scales not properly. Until Sinking Sands you don't see this, but then, the Bard-Damage vs. Mob-HP don't fit well together.Bards are so supportive, they don't have to do much damage? 1. Then what about Illy/Coercer. Mezzing, Mana, Buffs... Both profit that they are pure DD's, while Bards are Hybrids, which is an unsolved SOE Problem. 2. Troubs are the least played class, guess why? You're really wanted for Raids, mediocre wanted for Groups and Soloing is rather... not really Troub Buisness except some enthusiasts. So bringing a Troub from 1-80 is a pain in the backside, not an enjoyable game experience. A Swash is not without some interesting Value (DPS+Debuffs) and he Solo's like a Tiger, while Troubs are more Kittycats.Those Bards in Raids that do decent damage do this with only one trick, boosting Auto-Attack as far as you can.2. One-Trick PonyDirges gives good boni to Tanks + Melee DD's and some decent for Healers.Troub gives only good to Mage, a bit to Tank+Melee and close to nothing to Healers that is specific (Fastcast+DKTM are Bard abilities)3. <img src="file:///C:/DOKUME~1/Gautamol/LOKALE~1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg" />What's the Difference for a Group between taking a Troub and an Illy with them?Illy helps a group better then a Troub. More haste, an Spell Damage Proc, an temp. Damageproc that not only goes of on Spells, also on Melee, a massive DA Buff. As soon as the Illy has his mythical, he even gives everyone +10 DA.And now, the massive Deaggro-Department goes over to Coercers. That's really disappointing.4. Achivements- EoF Endskill for Demoraliation is only valueable in PvP I guess, on PvE it's without worth.Mobs don't CA.- EoF Endskill for Sonics, is nice in it's thoughts, sadly the Programming doesn't catch up with it. Sometimes this Special even works against our Group/Raid.- Demoralisation as an Line can be deleted, until you get our Debuffs fixed.- Change in Bard-Tree Agi Wayfarers Watch (Agi 3) to some Bard-Specific Selfdamage, like Melee+Spell Crit.- Change Bard-Tree, Stamina Endskill (Sta 5) to "No shield", no one with a bit knowledge is using Shields. So if you want this Endskill used, change it.- Change Bard-Tree, Stamina Skald's Defense (Sta 3) from a DA only with shield to something like 2% DA per AA Point with 6-8% DA while using an shield, to keep the flavor and playstyle for some.- Change Int-Line Endskill in Bard-Tree "Coin Toss". Heroic Opportunities have been not touched since years and adapted to current gameplay. So either fix HO's or change Coin Toss.5. Mage-Skill BuffIs not worth anything for Mages. Difference of hits of Spells on Raid is arround 1%. That lies in the Melee Skill vs. Avoidance while Mage-Skills vs. Mob Resistance Mechanic. So let the Buff reduce resistability, make it a permanent Mana-Reducer in the Style of Illy Savante, something that is worth to be taken.5. My addingDoesn't negate OP, it's in addition <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Jeepned2

01-17-2009, 01:33 AM

Great ideas and recommendations, but you and I know none of it is ever going to happen, at least not in the near future.As of this moment here are the stats:Total Level 80 Scouts - 1979180 Dirges - 3870 (19.5% of all scouts)80 Rangers - 3629 (18.3% of all scouts)80 Brigands - 3408 (17.2% of all scouts)80 Assassins - 3348 (16.9% of all scouts)80 Swashbucklers - 3112 (15.7% of all scouts)80 Troubadours - 2424 (12.2% of all scouts)We are by far the smallest scout community and are apparently of no or little concern to SoE.

ShadowMunkie

01-17-2009, 04:46 AM

Average Damage I do on a raidly basis.Chimes of Blades - 17s Dur/1m Recast249 Average Hit420 Highest Hit.5% ZoneWide(maybe less)23,463 Total DamagePerfection of the Maestro - 20s Dur/1m 30s Recast1813 Average Hit2469 Highest Hit8% ZoneWide536,681 Total DamagePeace of Mind - 20s Dur/2m Recast1561 Average Hit2364 Highest Hit3% ZoneWide221,713 Total DamageThis is the exact reasons why Perfection of the Maestro is considered "class defining".Chime of Blades and Peace of Mind are almost identical on Melee DPS.

TalanRM

01-17-2009, 06:24 AM

<cite>Ophidius@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>better queue this now, in hopes of not being left, again, at the bottom of the ever increasing "to do" pile.Issues :Power Ballad - a change is needed to actually regen mana at a meaningful rate.As it stands right now about any power procing item out there is more efficent.Fully agree. Proc items and summoners are the main power regen classes now.Buffs - having to cast 16 buffs after each death...The fact that all classes have apporximately the same number of spells and that troubs have 11 spell lines dedicated to buffs leaves troubs with very few non passive tools. Making the in game experience dull.Even worse, players now can have access to those buffs through gear, thus reducing the effectivness and novelty of bard buffs.Fully agree with this, bards in general need more 'active' utility spells; both for fun and because gear bonuses any more effective than many of our buffs these days.Stealth Stab - Give some other ability than Bump or AA abilities that puts us into stealth. Having to spec your AA's a certain way to make a non-AA CA feasible to use is weak. Or change the stealth stab, the image of a bard with a stealth attack is awfull anyway.I enjoy the stealth and positional attacks as at least they break-up the normal click-cycle of abilities. Having to spec 5AAs into a certain line just to use both non-AA stealth attacks is frsutrating though - particularly when many of AAs in the bard tree dictate AA choice (i.e. DTKM for all bards, and Blade Dance for some).TSO armour - Benevolent alacrity 3 , [Removed for Content]? , 3% casting speed on beneficial spells for those 16 buffs and the two in combat beneficial spells troubs have? Because 3% cast time bonus on a 1 sec cast time 30 sec recast and a 2 sec cast time 2 minute recast is so so usefull, you wouldn't even notice it with a stopwatch.Agree, although this is not unique to bards. Allegro (Wis line AA) is pointless except to get DKTM for this reason to.Dexterous sonata - Crit bonus is far from being as efficient as it first might seem given it has no incidence on the max damage +1 rule. And guess what the new bard buff gives 10 crit bonus. Hourray for another barely usefull buff to cast.For a single AA it seems OK to me. Bonus needs to be extended to Taunts though with the new Hate changes on test.</blockquote>

Dolorian

01-17-2009, 06:37 AM

There is only one way for PotM to be so far better than PoM on your parse,and that's having 2 troubadours in your raid.And PotM recast timer starts when the spell is finished, unlike PoMAnd you do know enchanters are the class that gain the most from group procs,because of their insanely fast cast/recast and because they have a pet.Summoners will have their legendary robe fixed soon and will be back to decent dps andpoor power managment.

Darkor

01-17-2009, 08:08 AM

<cite>Ophidius@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>better queue this now, in hopes of not being left, again, at the bottom of the ever increasing "to do" pile.Bugs :Countersong and Jester's Cap - If you cast CS during the gap that the mob starts to cast the spell but has not completed the cast yet, then it removes from the mob but does not decrease the spell/CA, thus being completely wasted. 2 ways to fix: Either reduce cast time of CS to be very small so this has a small probability of happening, or make CS so it is not removed on these situations so it can be applied on the mob's next spell/CA.Same issue with JC, 2 troubs, and the same target.Harmonizations [Immunities and Durations] - Every spell with an immunity is affected by duration increasers. This applies to Harmonizations for Troubadors because it makes immunities last longer (manaburn, lifeburn, gravitas, etc). Not all Songs are Uninterruptible - Sonic Interference (End AA from Sonic's EoF AA Line) and Sonnet (Charm Spell) are currently interruptible and cannot be cast while moving. Sonic Interference Buffs enemy DoT's - Sonic Interference reduces duration of spells by 30%. The bug occurs that it actually also SPEEDS DoT DURATIONS UP, meaing that the DoT occurs faster.Issues :Power Ballad - a change is needed to actually regen mana at a meaningful rate.As it stands right now about any power procing item out there is more efficent.Power Depleter - Is this the only class that still has a (tiny) power depleter attached to two abilities ? The basic CAas well as the Vexing verses power depleting debuff. It's not even a drain, only depletes target's power ( supposedely, and for what it's worth anyway now )Buffs - having to cast 16 buffs after each death...The fact that all classes have apporximately the same number of spells and that troubs have 11 spell lines dedicated to buffs leaves troubs with very few non passive tools. Making the in game experience dull.Even worse, players now can have access to those buffs through gear, thus reducing the effectivness and novelty of bard buffs.Stealth Stab - Give some other ability than Bump or AA abilities that puts us into stealth. Having to spec your AA's a certain way to make a non-AA CA feasible to use is weak. Or change the stealth stab, the image of a bard with a stealth attack is awfull anyway.TSO armour - Benevolent alacrity 3 , [Removed for Content]? , 3% casting speed on beneficial spells for those 16 buffs and the two in combat beneficial spells troubs have? Because 3% cast time bonus on a 1 sec cast time 30 sec recast and a 2 sec cast time 2 minute recast is so so usefull, you wouldn't even notice it with a stopwatch.Dexterous sonata - Crit bonus is far from being as efficient as it first might seem given it has no incidence on the max damage +1 rule. And guess what the new bard buff gives 10 crit bonus. Hourray for another barely usefull buff to cast.Solo ability - pre AA templar like, almost, no kidding, try it with treasured gear, don't forget the anti-stress pills.Heroic group desirabilty - about the same as a third healer, the other support classes have nothing to fear.Debuffs - they need a revamp, and vexing verses is supposed to burn a mob's power and health, well i'm still waiting on that health damage. The two decent ones are the bard mana resist debuff and the scout resist debuff.Deagro - aggro reducing, jester's cap and perfection of the maestro define a troub, without those, troubs will not be in a min/maxers group/raid setup. And to fix fighters, the aggro managment was nerfed to crumbs. Two to go.It is funny how potm defines the class, whereas Frigid gift, fanatical devotion or PoM are just extra spells.Shows how few noticable abilities a troub has.</blockquote>I can only agree on all points, the troubador needs some serious buff ups or he will be the least wanted class in grps.

Aule

01-20-2009, 04:15 PM

Don't worry, I still want a troub before I want a summoner <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

bryldan

01-20-2009, 08:26 PM

Let us not forget the bug that has been in this game for years and yearsPower song and dktm droping when certain classes (enchanters/other bards) are put into and out of the group.This is a very annoying bug which should have been addressed a very long time ago as its been well documented over the years and complained about yet it still persists like a bad case of the clap.....

Jeepned2

01-21-2009, 01:36 PM

<cite>Melli wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ophidius@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Being the least desired support class for heroic content.The best raid setup dosn't have more than 2 troubs.</blockquote>You're complaining 'cause troubs only get 2 slots on a raid? There are lots of classes that don't even get 1 slot on raid, or only get 1 slot. In a 24 man raid setup, having more than 2 slots would be even more imbalanced.As far as heroic content goes, I can't speak to the situation on your server. Our troubs have no trouble with groups.Bards in general are gods of the end game. If spells are broken, I certainly hope they fix them for you - but more utility and more raid slots seems like a bit much.</blockquote>We have one Troub, me. We have tried to recruit more, no luck. Last night we raided with 4 enchanters and no other mages. (Coercer in MT, Illusionist in other 3, oh and don't forget the 3 dirges). If the mages aren't fixed, then there will be no need to fix the Troub. Our fates are tied together. We are almost to the point of a 4 dirge setup with all predators for dps.

Aule

01-21-2009, 02:33 PM

<cite>bryldan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let us not forget the bug that has been in this game for years and yearsPower song and dktm droping when certain classes (enchanters/other bards) are put into and out of the group.This is a very annoying bug which should have been addressed a very long time ago as its been well documented over the years and complained about yet it still persists like a bad case of the clap.....</blockquote>Yeah this happens to enchanters when other enchanters show up. It's annoying that it takes the best power regen spell and keeps it, and cancels the other one. Instead of just leaving it up and having no effect apply. Maybe there's some mechanic with power regen that they can't have it up but not applying, dunno.Didn't realized this happened with DKTM too.

Dolorian

01-21-2009, 03:11 PM

what was happening is that even identical buffs were cancelled,now that troubs can enhance dktm with a +5 crit chance there would be a valid reasonfor it to cancel the dirge buff.But as it is the newest buff just cancels the existing one, whatever the bonii/spell quality is.

Jesters

01-23-2009, 11:31 PM

some of my views on all this....1) those that say mez and charm are useless need to relearn how to use them, you can lock down 2 mobs that are charm/mez able by mezing one and charming the other then canceling your charm and mezzing the 2nd one2) PotM IS alot of dmg, PoM is less if the troub has his mythical (taunts, scout snares and such = procs)3) Wish PoTM counted as our DPS but that would mean it would be our hate too, should just add on there something similar to the illy spell proc/dehate that would dehate for us or just give us FD so we can cast it and afk for 30 or so seconds4) as to the buff bug just have to watch whats going on in your maintained / effects window really, i always do when im grouped with a dirge5) yes the troub does need a revamp....my vote is to cancel the lavastorm revamp and start revamping EVERY class so that theres not all these holes in the combat system with this new hate revampdunno if aerelik even looks at our fourms (if you do pls DO acknowledge us) there may only be 2000ish players but we pay too!

Carthorn

01-26-2009, 04:59 PM

Hmm, maybe I should have read all these posts before I rolled a Trouby for my first character! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />So far, at 24, its pretty fun. But it seems once you get past the Honeymoon phase, it goes to crap. I don't really know what most of you are talking about, as there is really no one to group with at my level, and haven't gotten most of my abilities yet, but hopefully SoE will address them by the time I get there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Or should I just cut my losses and reroll?

peepshow

01-27-2009, 10:57 AM

<cite>Carthorn wrote</cite><blockquote>Or should I just cut my losses and reroll?</blockquote>Nah, even with the things that needs fixing the class can be played..I'm sure no matter what class forum you read in, you will find bug lists..Get used to it and welcome to the trubbie world <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

AmadeusH

01-27-2009, 02:40 PM

<div>The utility dynamics really need some tuning for bards. Especially in light of the new tanking dynamics. We are a support class so if not balanced along with tanking it's quite easy to break one or the other later. You are doing it to a degree now for aggro management, but you should consider other aspects of support too. They factor into aggro indirectly and could produce some unexpected results if tweaked later.</div><div> </div><div>From EQ2 start until LU 13, Troubs were the main support in any tanking group. After that, it was Dirge only in any tanking group. You might consider a balancing where both are viable and choices can be made depending on the tank type and the encounter type. A bard's primary support of tanking is avoidance. Up to LU13, AGI was the greatest source of avoidance, therefore Troubs were required. Once AGI was removed as a factor, Dirge's parry and stoneskin became the best support for avoidance. Troubs's support for tanks came in the form of a defense buff and a spell reflect. While not completely broken, they are not working as intended, they seem to be leftover effects much like the Troub power drains. Troubs are essentially saddled with a large amount of pre LU13 mechanics that are no longer relevant.</div><div> </div><div>To address tanking support, one only need replace the two nonfunctioning Troub avoidance buffs with modern devices. For example a block buff in place of the defense buff. And a spell stoneskin instead of spell reflect. Dirge would remain parry buff and their stoneskin would affect only melee dmg. Then some tank types could have high parry and low block, whereas some have high block and low parry. You therefore have a choice of either Bard to support the tank depending on the tank's needs. The same goes for the encounter. If facing a melee heavy raid mob like Kultak with melee ae's, Dirge support would be preferrable. If facing a caster heavy raid mob, Troub support would be preferrable. But regardless, whether solo, group, heroic, or raid, both bards offer relevant support for tanking.</div><div> </div><div>To address healer support, Dirge's offer minor heal enh with Gravitas. Troubs could offere minor heal enh with a power use reduction for heals. Again this provides a choice.</div><div> </div><div>To address caster support. Troubs offer a casting proc. Dirge's could offer a spell hit rate increase temp buff or proc.</div><div> </div><div>To address melee support. Dirge's offer a melee proc. Troub's could offer a melee hit rate increase temp buff or proc.</div><div> </div><div>In conclusion, with the now changed deaggro mechanic, Troubadors now have at least 5 ineffective (some would argue completely broken) mechanics: deaggro, spell skill increase, defense buff, spell reflect, and power drains. If you were to take any other class and break 5 of their mechanics, the response would not be pretty. Fortunately, Troubs are a patient lot and we have waited over 2 years for some tuning. Could you consider doing it now?</div>

Asif

01-29-2009, 03:05 PM

<cite>AmadeusH wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>The utility dynamics really need some tuning for bards. Especially in light of the new tanking dynamics. We are a support class so if not balanced along with tanking it's quite easy to break one or the other later. You are doing it to a degree now for aggro management, but you should consider other aspects of support too. They factor into aggro indirectly and could produce some unexpected results if tweaked later.</div><div> </div><div>From EQ2 start until LU 13, Troubs were the main support in any tanking group. After that, it was Dirge only in any tanking group. You might consider a balancing where both are viable and choices can be made depending on the tank type and the encounter type. A bard's primary support of tanking is avoidance. Up to LU13, AGI was the greatest source of avoidance, therefore Troubs were required. Once AGI was removed as a factor, Dirge's parry and stoneskin became the best support for avoidance. Troubs's support for tanks came in the form of a defense buff and a spell reflect. While not completely broken, they are not working as intended, they seem to be leftover effects much like the Troub power drains. Troubs are essentially saddled with a large amount of pre LU13 mechanics that are no longer relevant.</div><div> </div><div>To address tanking support, one only need replace the two nonfunctioning Troub avoidance buffs with modern devices. For example a block buff in place of the defense buff. And a spell stoneskin instead of spell reflect. Dirge would remain parry buff and their stoneskin would affect only melee dmg. Then some tank types could have high parry and low block, whereas some have high block and low parry. You therefore have a choice of either Bard to support the tank depending on the tank's needs. The same goes for the encounter. If facing a melee heavy raid mob like Kultak with melee ae's, Dirge support would be preferrable. If facing a caster heavy raid mob, Troub support would be preferrable. But regardless, whether solo, group, heroic, or raid, both bards offer relevant support for tanking.</div><div> </div><div>To address healer support, Dirge's offer minor heal enh with Gravitas. Troubs could offere minor heal enh with a power use reduction for heals. Again this provides a choice.</div><div> </div><div>To address caster support. Troubs offer a casting proc. Dirge's could offer a spell hit rate increase temp buff or proc.</div><div> </div><div>To address melee support. Dirge's offer a melee proc. Troub's could offer a melee hit rate increase temp buff or proc.</div><div> </div><div>In conclusion, with the now changed deaggro mechanic, Troubadors now have at least 5 ineffective (some would argue completely broken) mechanics: deaggro, spell skill increase, defense buff, spell reflect, and power drains. If you were to take any other class and break 5 of their mechanics, the response would not be pretty. Fortunately, Troubs are a patient lot and we have waited over 2 years for some tuning. Could you consider doing it now?</div></blockquote>Awesome post man my only worry is that being here in the Troub forums will it even be read because the way i see it we are as troubs going to be used less and less.I know my guild has 3 raiding troubs so we could always have 2 troubs ready to go and after the firghter changes we will just run with one which will leave 2 of us sitting.Everyone i know now wants more Illy's and dirges i see it happening in pug groups on our server all the time now.I just hope they fix us before its to late!!!!!

liveja

01-29-2009, 04:26 PM

<cite>Carthorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm, maybe I should have read all these posts before I rolled a Trouby for my first character! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>At 75th level -- even with spending hours on LFG without even one response & only getting groups with guildies, thus soloing about 90% of my time -- I absolutely LOVE my Troubie, & wouldn't give him up for anything. He's replaced my 80 Swashy as my "main" now, & is the most fun I've ever had with a MMO character.Don't listen to the doom-&-gloom. Sure, people don't like us for instance groups ... big deal. Get a good guild, make some friends, have some fun. But whatever you do, do yourself a favor & learn how to "kite", IOW, getting mobs to chase you around while you nuke & shoot them on the run. Yes, it's kinda tedious, but it's FUN tedium <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ballads

01-30-2009, 05:15 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Carthorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm, maybe I should have read all these posts before I rolled a Trouby for my first character! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>At 75th level -- even with spending hours on LFG without even one response & only getting groups with guildies, thus soloing about 90% of my time -- I absolutely LOVE my Troubie, & wouldn't give him up for anything. He's replaced my 80 Swashy as my "main" now, & is the most fun I've ever had with a MMO character.Don't listen to the doom-&-gloom. Sure, people don't like us for instance groups ... big deal. Get a good guild, make some friends, have some fun. But whatever you do, do yourself a favor & learn how to "kite", IOW, getting mobs to chase you around while you nuke & shoot them on the run. Yes, it's kinda tedious, but it's FUN tedium <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Fun? So i can either walk up, root a mob and 2 shot it move on to the next one, or i can have fun kitting it for 3 minutes. HMMM

liveja

02-02-2009, 11:29 AM

<cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Carthorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm, maybe I should have read all these posts before I rolled a Trouby for my first character! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>At 75th level -- even with spending hours on LFG without even one response & only getting groups with guildies, thus soloing about 90% of my time -- I absolutely LOVE my Troubie, & wouldn't give him up for anything. He's replaced my 80 Swashy as my "main" now, & is the most fun I've ever had with a MMO character.Don't listen to the doom-&-gloom. Sure, people don't like us for instance groups ... big deal. Get a good guild, make some friends, have some fun. But whatever you do, do yourself a favor & learn how to "kite", IOW, getting mobs to chase you around while you nuke & shoot them on the run. Yes, it's kinda tedious, but it's FUN tedium <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Fun? So i can either walk up, root a mob and 2 shot it move on to the next one, or i can have fun kitting it for 3 minutes. HMMM</blockquote>Everybody sees "fun" differently. For me, "fun" is doing something challenging & winning. Troubies are challenging; Swashies & Wizzies are not.I love my Troubie.

Trabbart

02-04-2009, 05:33 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everybody sees "fun" differently. For me, "fun" is doing something challenging & winning. Troubies are challenging; Swashies & Wizzies are not.I love my Troubie.</blockquote>You must be having a ball with all the updates since lu13. I wish i could suggest to play the commoner as a class, but it sadly has been removed.

Dolorian

02-05-2009, 04:11 PM

"soap collector" will be the next troub title.bump

Rayche

02-06-2009, 05:30 PM

While it can be an interesting way to play (Kiting) it's certainly not a valid reason to NOT fix the class.I really like some of the ideas listed above. I'm hoping someone is reading this...

Asif

02-06-2009, 07:52 PM

<cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>While it can be an interesting way to play (Kiting) it's certainly not a valid reason to NOT fix the class.I really like some of the ideas listed above. I'm hoping someone is reading this...</blockquote>TBH i am so sick of kiting i have just learnt not to solo with my Troub its just not that much fun.Thats what i hope for some of the ideas here are great just dont know if the right people see it buried way down here in the Troub forums.

Sunfire

03-03-2009, 09:19 AM

I play mainly for pvp. My first class was a fury and love it until 60-70 when they go completely broke and can't out heal dps and can't out dps heals. So a broken class that most people pass up for a warden instead. So I got tired of that but don't like just stunning someone and casting 3 CAs and bam the person is dead. So I rolled a troubador because at that time they didn't exist. I never had a problem getting a group because I was a very very rare class. I did grind all the way to 70 by myself or with the help of my one friend leveling his warden. That was when EoF was end game. Then enter RoK, and TSO and the more you see the troub start to take on the characteristics of the fury. Everyone else seems to be getting hooked up with upgrades and improvements to their classes.The problem with that is that they are getting abilities that the troubador used to be needed for. Now the only things that set us apart are JC and PoTM. Pretty soon you will see that stuff on gear and bam troubadors will be the next Necromancer. Completely useless and not needed. We are getting nerfed again in this fighter update, and we got our dps toned down during the big "SCOUT" dps nerf. The problem is that we are a hybrid class and don't do dps like predators/rogues. I will give credit where it is do. The new change that allows you to cast most of your spells (can't charm on the run or arrow attack on the run) was a good and needed update. But, we are still seriously falling to the wayside. Please SOE read these forums and give us some feedback. I will start posting on the PvP forums until I'm banned if I must so that we can atleast get some love.

liveja

03-03-2009, 01:36 PM

<cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>While it can be an interesting way to play (Kiting) it's certainly not a valid reason to NOT fix the class.</blockquote>I wasn't suggesting that there's no reason to "fix" Troubies. I was instead telling the person to whom I responded that he didn't make a bad decision to play a Troubie, & that it's certainly possible to solo one's way through T8 by kiting.I'm much more concerned, however, with fixing Mages ... because our group role is heavily tied to theirs, & when they're seen as less than viable, we are too.OTOH, I've lately been seeing more explicit demand from TSO groups for Troubies, lately ... so I'm kinda encouraged that when I finally bang out those last two levels, I'll be getting as much group action as my Swashy does <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But for now I've been taking a Troubie break, chasing stuff my Swashy needs, so those last two levels are taking longer than I'd like <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />