Fixing the Paladin class... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Boli32

01-15-2009, 12:41 PM

Right now if LU51 goes live as it stands paladins are pretty much [Removed for Content]... I think everyone can say the same. SO I propose we play a little *game* even if no-one pays any attention to it .. at least it'll make us feel better about the entire situaiton <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If YOU... the people could change or alter the class... a tweak here a tuck there to make it viable within the realms of this new Vison (tm)... what woudl you change to bring the paladin back into line?

Boli32

01-15-2009, 12:47 PM

My suggestions.. and I am just on my way to post it as a /feedback on test; (spam the channels long enough and maybe they'll notice <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />).Defence, Passive agro and need to heal in taunt spamDevotion our ward... change it to a buff; reduce the ward amounts slightly if needs be... but make it into a regenerating ward; instead of a ward you cast. so it it is on you all the time and obviously regenerates but in addition it also severs as a hate proc WHEN HIT,.. i./e. when target is damaged increases threat to target by xyz.i.e. 1816 (or whatever your ward is at) regenerating ward on the paladin at all times with a threat shield included in it as well; to coutneract the lack of passive hate which will become a sevear issue with any mobs that stun or use other CC (ESPECIALLY ones which uncurable stun... which we have no defence over)My reasoning... regenerating wards have just turned into my favourite thing in TSO... it may only be a small one on my defensive stance right now; but it fits the class so right... whilst SKs have the lifetaps where they heal with every attack paladins have wards which soak up damage before it even gets to the paladin <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />This will not only increase the paladins defensability somewhat (it may not be a stoneskin or anything like that but having hits reduced upon the tank due to always active wards (which under the new system we are spamming taunts to much to cast) woudl be ideal... also the threat proc is somethign which we NEED... as passive hate is virtually zero unless we have one of our DoT taunts running.Issues: - This will most likely be moulded into our defensive stance - the TSO AA which gives our currant ward will have to be changed to "increase ward+health amount of new ward or increase threat amount" - The Devotion AA on the paladin tree could be used to speed up the regeneration ticks, increase its amount or invcrease the threat amount gained... tho I would lean more towards the healing aspect given its on the healing line. - Obviously this ward amount will have to be reduced on pvp servers- Paladins will loose their ward which is aledgadly "part of the utility we bring to a raid".UtilityGive us anything... I mean *anything* to make us a person people WANT to have in groups/raids... even just as simple as reducing times of beneficial spells by 5% on our raid buff woudl be something because right now compared to every other class in the game a ranger outranks us in useful buffs they bring to a group.

Kiljoi

01-15-2009, 01:55 PM

I like where your heads at.SK - damage with heal = lifetapPaly - damge with heal/ward = makes sense to meI love the idea of a regenerating ward with threat sheild incorporated into it. I'd like to see our heals more viable when getting wailed upon by raid mobs... maybe something uninterruptable added to our ward/heals.. or a instacast ... anything.I say make Restituition castable thru stun/stiffle etc.Our raid/group utility definately needs a boost/alteration. Its crap as it is now.Divine Favor should have a lessened stun time imo.Passive hate in 09!

Niou

01-15-2009, 03:28 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My suggestions.. and I am just on my way to post it as a /feedback on test; (spam the channels long enough and maybe they'll notice <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />).Defence, Passive agro and need to heal in taunt spamDevotion our ward... change it to a buff; reduce the ward amounts slightly if needs be... but make it into a regenerating ward; instead of a ward you cast. so it it is on you all the time and obviously regenerates but in addition it also severs as a hate proc WHEN HIT,.. i./e. when target is damaged increases threat to target by xyz.i.e. 1816 (or whatever your ward is at) regenerating ward on the paladin at all times with a threat shield included in it as well; to coutneract the lack of passive hate which will become a sevear issue with any mobs that stun or use other CC (ESPECIALLY ones with uncurable stun... which we have no defence over)My reasoning... regenerating wards have just turned into my favourite thing in TSO... it may only be a small one on my defensive stance right now; but it fits the class so right... whilst SKs have the lifetaps where they heal with every attack paladins have wards which soak up damage before it even gets to the paladin <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />This will not only increase the paladins defensability somewhat (it may not be a stoneskin or anything like that but having hits reduced upon the tank due to always active wards (which under the new system we are spamming taunts too much to cast) would be ideal... also the threat proc is something which we NEED... as passive hate is virtually zero unless we have one of our DoT taunts running.Issues: - This will most likely be moulded into our defensive stance - the TSO AA which gives our currant ward will have to be changed to "increase ward+health amount of new ward or increase threat amount" - The Devotion AA on the paladin tree could be used to speed up the regeneration ticks, increase its amount or invcrease the threat amount gained... tho I would lean more towards the healing aspect given its on the healing line. - Obviously this ward amount will have to be reduced on pvp servers- Paladins will loose their ward which is aledgadly "part of the utility we bring to a raid".UtilityGive us anything... I mean *anything* to make us a person people WANT to have in groups/raids... even just as simple as reducing times of beneficial spells by 5% on our raid buff woudl be something because right now compared to every other class in the game a ranger outranks us in useful buffs they bring to a group.</blockquote>QFE. Great idea's for changes.Boli pointed out, yet again, the key features that are now missing from the Paladin class, as of the update.Survivability- We are now single target tanks in raids and must have our survivability increased if we are to compete with our Guardian counterpart at all. Stonewall is obviously useless and needs to be tweaked to suit our new purpose. If more stoneskins are not in our future, then regenerating wards should be considered for the paladin trademark.Passive Hate- What paladin's are now missing in comparison to the other tanks. This is a problem for all paladins, be it raid, instance, or small duo's. Amends was put in the game for a reason. That was to allow the Paladin to heal and cast while maintaing the hate he would otherwise lose. With that gone and our sudden need to spam taunts if we are to maintain hate, we will be having one heck of a time attempting to use our heals. Also, as Boli already pointed out, mob's with control effects are going destroy our groups while we sit there doing nothing and generating 0 passive hate.

Kiljoi

01-15-2009, 03:41 PM

<cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Survivability- If more stoneskins are not in our future, then regenerating wards should be considered for the paladin trademark.Passive Hate- mob's with control effects are going destroy our groups while we sit there doing nothing and generating 0 passive hate.</blockquote>QFEI dont mind being behind in survivability if i'm clearly top dog in agro snap/sustained.

Kordran

01-15-2009, 04:26 PM

Good suggestions, and whatever they do (if they indeed do anything at all) I believe they should NOT attach them to achievement abilities. I think most of us tend to think in terms of being level 80, and in the context of tanking instances and raiding. But the survivability and passive hate issues that we face also affect lower level Paladins as they're coming up. Guardians get Tower of Stone in their 50s, and it's a standard CA, not tied to requiring that they get a certain amount of APs.For example, while improving Stonewall would be nice, it's something that only benefits level 80 Paladins with >180 APs. That, by it's very nature, is not balanced with the Guardian's ToS. If they expect Paladins to be "nearly" as good as Guardians, and primarily compete for that role as a single-target tank, then there needs to be parity in the tools that each class has. Right now, there's no doubt that doesn't exist.

Kahling

01-15-2009, 06:43 PM

Change as above in Boli’s post and additionally I would say the following:-Change single target heal and group heal to be wards, increase the ward on the group from the figures its set at now upwards as the entire group would be eating it, this would offset some of the loss of passive hate gain that loosing amends gives, loosing passive hate gain means we are not going to be able to cast our heals/wards as much as we can now at the times we would like. Using them as wards will keep the element of skill to them as you can ward to prevent instead of reactive healing. Add a substantial heal (50% or more HP) to the stoneskin proc “stonewall” so that rather than just blocking which gives our healers a little time to catch up it would block and heal on block giving healers more time to catch up and make it the death save it should be and not the healers little helper it is, when a guardian casts one of their death saves their healers really feel it. It takes the guardian skill to use them at the correct times. Paladins deserve this aspect of not only the save it provides but the skill to use it. Looking at the timers for the guards death saves this would be perfect as I think their timers are twice our stoneskin but twice as effective and they have at least twice the amount. Ours being made on a par with them plus the faster reuse is called balancing.Further towards balancing remove the health restriction on divine aura, full stop, no question. Change passive hate gain on def stance to be when hit rather than when attacking and increase its chance to proc so that we can at least have some chance of holding agro against multi targets, what allot of people don’t realise is that when the passive gain is when hit like the guardian equivalent means guards will be creating agro against opponents around then when they are damaged. Ours is when we damage them, therefore with it being only 2 times a min then it’s going to be luck that it actually procs on an aoe to help hold agro multi target. Looking at changing the new amends to a powerful passive hate gain via when hit could solve this as well. Increase single target hate gain so that it is greater than the multi target tanks single target hate gain, if you add all the hate gain up, due to multi target taunts also effecting single targets the so called multi target tanks can actually generate more single target agro if they use all their taunts. – Broken Mechanic imho for both Guardians and Paladins.Utility :- Add 5% reduction in beneficial spell cast time and reuse time to Bayles leadership.Utility :- Add 2% crit mit per point to raid armament for all in raid (excluding tanks still), the intention behind raid armament is an honourable one, this just needs updating with the new content and mechanics in TSO.Utility :- Add a stat to our group spell - Call to redemption. With the two utilities above then even WIS would be welcome here, increasing everyone’s resists in group, and healers heals through wisdom would be welcomed (as I say though to be along with the other 2 utility changes as alone this would be pretty weak) Main Points:1. Increase survivability so that a Paladin is 2nd only to a Guardian and even then not by much as per the supposed intention of the changes. – changes to divine aura and stonewall above somewhat achieves this.2. Give Paladins the greatest passive hate gain to allow them to use their unique survivability arsenal. – changing the new amends to passive hate gain when hit could solve this, and be offset with the two heals changing to wards as per above.3. Give more Utility – Points above achieve this imho. I believe (or maybe I have to at this point) that the way things are on test at the moment are a work in progress to be finished after testing and feedback, and I really hope people are feeding back and I hope the designers involved are listening. The above are just some ways I see the problems I foresee with it currently as it is on test being fixed.

Steve11418

01-15-2009, 10:08 PM

Boil said - Devotion our ward... change it to a buff; reduce the ward amounts slightly if needs be... but make it into a regenerating wardI like it +1 vote.KOS - Wis line AA can be changed to make this ward group wide.EOF - Cast timer AA can be change to increasing the ward by XX% for each point.Passive Hate [tick]Survivability [tick]

Tommara

01-16-2009, 03:00 AM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>UtilityGive us anything... I mean *anything* to make us a person people WANT to have in groups/raids... even just as simple as reducing times of beneficial spells by 5% on our raid buff woudl be something because right now compared to every other class in the game a ranger outranks us in useful buffs they bring to a group.</blockquote>Um, we do? Cool!Um, what might that be?

Full_Metal_Mage

01-16-2009, 03:23 AM

<cite>Tommara wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>UtilityGive us anything... I mean *anything* to make us a person people WANT to have in groups/raids... even just as simple as reducing times of beneficial spells by 5% on our raid buff woudl be something because right now compared to every other class in the game a ranger outranks us in useful buffs they bring to a group.</blockquote>Um, we do? Cool!Um, what might that be?</blockquote>That's the point.

Tommara

01-16-2009, 03:39 AM

I only play a "baby" paladin in this game, but have played a lot of games, and generally like the hybrid types, especially rangers and paladins, but usually end up as a cleric.So I don't know what the end game issues are like for paladins in EQ2, but have observed in games like WoW (which I quit long ago, so maybe they fixed it since then), that paladin heals don't create hate as much as cleric/priest/templar heals do. That might be a consequence of the weaker heals that paladins have relative to cleric types, which makes sense.But as a minimum, taunts + heals+ damage should be able generate more hate than a pure healer can acquire. If paladins can't do that in EQ2, then I agree they're broken. If they can do it, then I'll need to see more of the game to be able to make a rational call. But I generally don't have any sympathy for those who want to raid, and then discover that those who min-max beat them out - it's such an old, well-known problem. Holy Trinity, specialists, and all that.

Tommara

01-16-2009, 03:53 AM

<cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tommara wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>UtilityGive us anything... I mean *anything* to make us a person people WANT to have in groups/raids... even just as simple as reducing times of beneficial spells by 5% on our raid buff woudl be something because right now compared to every other class in the game a ranger outranks us in useful buffs they bring to a group.</blockquote>Um, we do? Cool!Um, what might that be?</blockquote>That's the point.</blockquote>That's nonsense. My level 34 paladin has 5 buffs that help the group, my ranger has only one - can only help them run faster, which they don't need if they have a decent mount, which most level 80's do.

Niou

01-16-2009, 04:00 AM

<cite>Tommara wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tommara wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>UtilityGive us anything... I mean *anything* to make us a person people WANT to have in groups/raids... even just as simple as reducing times of beneficial spells by 5% on our raid buff woudl be something because right now compared to every other class in the game a ranger outranks us in useful buffs they bring to a group.</blockquote>Um, we do? Cool!Um, what might that be?</blockquote>That's the point.</blockquote>That's nonsense. My level 34 paladin has 5 buffs that help the group, my ranger has only one - can only help them run faster, which they don't need if they have a decent mount, which most level 80's do.</blockquote>Do you....even understand whats being talked about here? Shut up, jesus.

Tommara

01-16-2009, 04:07 AM

<cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tommara wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tommara wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>UtilityGive us anything... I mean *anything* to make us a person people WANT to have in groups/raids... even just as simple as reducing times of beneficial spells by 5% on our raid buff woudl be something because right now compared to every other class in the game a ranger outranks us in useful buffs they bring to a group.</blockquote>Um, we do? Cool!Um, what might that be?</blockquote>That's the point.</blockquote>That's nonsense. My level 34 paladin has 5 buffs that help the group, my ranger has only one - can only help them run faster, which they don't need if they have a decent mount, which most level 80's do.</blockquote>Do you....even understand whats being talked about here? Shut up, jesus.</blockquote>I understand that you chose a hybrid, and are now whining about not being one of the Holy Trinity. It's an old, old problem.

agememn

01-16-2009, 06:45 AM

<cite>Tommara wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tommara wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tommara wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>UtilityGive us anything... I mean *anything* to make us a person people WANT to have in groups/raids... even just as simple as reducing times of beneficial spells by 5% on our raid buff woudl be something because right now compared to every other class in the game a ranger outranks us in useful buffs they bring to a group.</blockquote>Um, we do? Cool!Um, what might that be?</blockquote>That's the point.</blockquote>That's nonsense. My level 34 paladin has 5 buffs that help the group, my ranger has only one - can only help them run faster, which they don't need if they have a decent mount, which most level 80's do.</blockquote>Do you....even understand whats being talked about here? Shut up, jesus.</blockquote>I understand that you chose a hybrid, and are now whining about not being one of the Holy Trinity. It's an old, old problem.</blockquote>/Slaps head, why is it every post with good (in this case very good) suggestions for what is needed for us is jumped upon by peeps with no clue as to the issues. If you dont understand whats going on dont post, when you do you just look like an idiot. PS FYI there a no hybrids in eq2

Irgun

01-16-2009, 11:06 AM

TSO-AA-Line-Paladin: replace instantheal with enhanced ward: "Increases the ward amount by 5% for each point and has a 5% chance (for each point as well) if ward is expired/triggered to be cast again instantly. Offers 1 trigger for each original casted ward.So with 5 points spend: +25% ward amount and a 25% chance that you get a doubleward if it expires/gets consumed due to damage.TSO-AA-Line-Paladin: replace grpheal with enhanced divine favor: "For each point spend you gain 10% more max hp and the duration the paladin is stifled/dazed gets lowered by 1.5secons"So with 5 points spend: divine favor heals you for 71.4% max hp and you are stifled/dazed for 4.5seconds.Change paladin mythical clickie (useless dumbfire pet dying after 1 hit on reactive damage shield anyway) to a passive proc:"Divine Mail: on a sucessful attack the paladins grp (or only the paladin, whatever) gains +10% on worn armor for 10seconds. This effect will trigger 1.6 times a minute."Conclusion: a possibility for a doubleward, useful divine favor as a counterpart for Sks bloodletter ability (still the little brother of it, so no reason for Sks to freak out) and a way to have a miti shortbuff.Thats what I`d do now.

Anurra

01-16-2009, 08:19 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My suggestions.. and I am just on my way to post it as a /feedback on test; (spam the channels long enough and maybe they'll notice <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />).Defence, Passive agro and need to heal in taunt spamDevotion our ward... change it to a buff; reduce the ward amounts slightly if needs be... but make it into a regenerating ward; instead of a ward you cast. so it it is on you all the time and obviously regenerates but in addition it also severs as a hate proc WHEN HIT,.. i./e. when target is damaged increases threat to target by xyz.i.e. 1816 (or whatever your ward is at) regenerating ward on the paladin at all times with a threat shield included in it as well; to coutneract the lack of passive hate which will become a sevear issue with any mobs that stun or use other CC (ESPECIALLY ones which uncurable stun... which we have no defence over)My reasoning... regenerating wards have just turned into my favourite thing in TSO... it may only be a small one on my defensive stance right now; but it fits the class so right... whilst SKs have the lifetaps where they heal with every attack paladins have wards which soak up damage before it even gets to the paladin <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />This will not only increase the paladins defensability somewhat (it may not be a stoneskin or anything like that but having hits reduced upon the tank due to always active wards (which under the new system we are spamming taunts to much to cast) woudl be ideal... also the threat proc is somethign which we NEED... as passive hate is virtually zero unless we have one of our DoT taunts running.Issues:- This will most likely be moulded into our defensive stance- the TSO AA which gives our currant ward will have to be changed to "increase ward+health amount of new ward or increase threat amount"- The Devotion AA on the paladin tree could be used to speed up the regeneration ticks, increase its amount or invcrease the threat amount gained... tho I would lean more towards the healing aspect given its on the healing line.- Obviously this ward amount will have to be reduced on pvp servers- Paladins will loose their ward which is aledgadly "part of the utility we bring to a raid".UtilityGive us anything... I mean *anything* to make us a person people WANT to have in groups/raids... even just as simple as reducing times of beneficial spells by 5% on our raid buff woudl be something because right now compared to every other class in the game a ranger outranks us in useful buffs they bring to a group.</blockquote>QFE.Also, Kordran made mention that these changes need to be linked to abilities that are not attained from AA's. In order to compete with guardians on ANY level, this has to be true! It is not reasonable to expect Paladins to be equal to guardians only after getting hundreds of AAs. SoE needs to address this issue.

Tommara

01-18-2009, 07:57 AM

<cite>agememnon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tommara wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tommara wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tommara wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>UtilityGive us anything... I mean *anything* to make us a person people WANT to have in groups/raids... even just as simple as reducing times of beneficial spells by 5% on our raid buff woudl be something because right now compared to every other class in the game a ranger outranks us in useful buffs they bring to a group.</blockquote>Um, we do? Cool!Um, what might that be?</blockquote>That's the point.</blockquote>That's nonsense. My level 34 paladin has 5 buffs that help the group, my ranger has only one - can only help them run faster, which they don't need if they have a decent mount, which most level 80's do.</blockquote>Do you....even understand whats being talked about here? Shut up, jesus.</blockquote>I understand that you chose a hybrid, and are now whining about not being one of the Holy Trinity. It's an old, old problem.</blockquote>/Slaps head, why is it every post with good (in this case very good) suggestions for what is needed for us is jumped upon by peeps with no clue as to the issues. If you dont understand whats going on dont post, when you do you just look like an idiot. PS FYI there a no hybrids in eq2</blockquote>I pointed out an error - Rangers don't have better buffs than paladins. The only group buff that rangers have is run speed.Paladins are tank-healer hybrids.In the end-game "there can be only one" with respect to tanks. That's not good for any tank-oriented class.Those are the facts. Give me facts in rebuttable instead of indulging in name calling.

Boli32

01-18-2009, 08:20 AM

Paladins have 3 group/raid buffs; more if you go down the Wisdom line which no paladin does who understands the class at all; you say you have a paladin who has multiple group buffs I'm betting you took that line... by the time you get to end game with it I hope you understand the class enough to realise that the other lines offer far more in terms of AA points spent vs reward just as you would expect a paladin makign a n00b ranger will make a few mistakes intially in choosing their AA.Raid:Raid arnament mitigation for any non fighters - mitigation curve anyone+5% base heals + wisdom - Ask your MT healers how much +base heals they actually have.Group:Damage proc, double verses undead - this proc ids barly 1% on the parse... its perhaps the worst proc you will ever use.By contrast every other fighter gives both the raid ansd group measurable buffs and effects when they group with them; along with multiple debuffs to decrease incoming damage or increase outgoing damage all of which stack with other debuffs.So what you are looking at is a fighter class that offers the raid the least amount of buffs / measurable effects to the raid as "utility"... in fact you could compare us to rangers of the scout world as they too offer little to the raid... so you see where I'm going with this?Anyways... I don't know what class you are moaning about but Rangers also have a nice short term buff they have access to that as far as I know most ranger get... Focus Aim increases accuracy rate of the group... which on or near the pull where your hit rate is in the low 50%s I can asdsure you that is actually useful unlike the paladin ones I have mentioned; whether you could count that short term buff as more useful or less useful than above mentioned is personal preference the reference I made was simply a way of pointing out we are screwed in terms of utility in a similar way to rangers.Now seriously can you stop derailign this thread it is meant to be an excersise in "what you think YOU could do to fix the paladin class and not a shouting match over who gets the least buffs.

Antryg Mistrose

01-18-2009, 09:47 AM

/shrug - I wouldn't write off wisdom line. On test it makes a measurable difference in hit rates in defensive stance. Unlike, say guards (our competition lets face it), we can't self buff our hit rate any other way.I'm just waiting for the devs to finish stage 2 of the paladin revamp - surely by now they have realised how many cracks amends papered over.

Edminime

01-18-2009, 06:12 PM

Our self heal cast will stifled/stuned ect cast 0.5, recast 5 sec heals for 1500-2000 threat 1000-1500. This way we will not have the healer crying and it will give us survivability and threat will stifled/stuned ect.<div><a class="icon_reply_sm" rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/insert.m?topicId=441053&forumId=748&start=0"><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/transp.gif" /></a> <a class="icon_quote" rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/quote.m?postId=4915030&start=0"><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/transp.gif" /></a></div>

Prestissimo

01-19-2009, 10:13 PM

I run the wisdom line (8,4,8,2) purely and solely to counter the reduction in offensive skills, and to allow my group to hit/function better, and because of fear immunity. That little regenerating ward doesn't do much, but between any healers regenerating ward/proc heals and that tiny little bit from wiz line, my self ward will be plenty more than enough to keep me healed through Scion of Ice trash and most any run for guildies epic weapons. On the very few raids I go on, I wouldn't run it unless it was purely because we needed the fear immune because none of our other tanks are capable of getting fear immunity. If there was ANY other way to reliably counter fear, I would change in a heart beat. (not sure about the end crusader ability, haven't gotten it yet to test. 5 more points till I get it.)

Shinjun

01-21-2009, 07:14 PM

As i see it the vigor of trust line should get a 10% base to healing for the pally at M1 in t8... and in the support line of the pally tree the castigate line should be switch for the vigor of trust line since its grp wide unlike castigate. The vigor of trust AA should be about .6 % additional base heal to the spell. Gives the paladin better heals overall and healers in group and raid... Castigate should be on a 1min 30 sec timer....Ward in the healing line should be changed to 5 % base ward per point and lower reuse time 1 sec per point still...and the casting should be also .5 secs for easier wards without interrupts...Smite evil should be .5 sec casting for easier use on it .. interruptable when u dont have the Strength endline and sometimes still when you have the endline.Cure Spells should clear all the dots thats on the paladin minus the exception of traumas. using it one at a time for a spell is tiring. Can also make it clear set of dots from one enemy instead of all the dots or so.Aura of the crusader should have a threat added to it just like the cure spell for every ailment it takes off threat should be applied.In the wisdom line in the second tree better to have the 2nd line (forgot name) to be 3 triggers to even up with the other spells in damage.Stone wall should be 10 sec block and block everything ... the stone skin from the crusader aa line is shareable with SK so its not defining .. since we are blocker by default we should get an ability of that. SKs get a 15 sec parry which is like having the scouts parry belt... we should get it for the fact that can be used in raids(if we still got slots after this update) so if we mt or ot we wouldnt be nuked to bits at all.. divine aura is a 40/60 chance 60 being we get nuked...

Laxxor

02-25-2009, 12:58 AM

So i might be repeating what others have said but ill just right what i think would make me happy with the paladin class and not over powered1) 20% increase on dmg on ca and spells2) Don't merge the spells with the new gu, its just stupid period, and if soe continues with this foolish idea then please give those who have taken the time to play enough to have both those spells mastered, the new amends mastered free!!3) Make raid armament have a sizeable crit mit buff4) I liked the idea of a regenerating ward insted of devotion, though i wouldn't decrease the value, if anything i might make it higher, like 2.5k but specific towards melee dps..........thinking about it actually replace sacrament of bayle with this regenerating ward, its more out of place in my mind left over from when it took an essense5) Fix stonewall, either 10seconds blocking all attacks over 50% every 10minutes or 15seconds blocking 1 attack over 50% every 2 minutes6) Give us another short term, non AA based, not way to powerful, maybe not so important for all raids, but i always believed that being fear immune fitted paladins and there godliness, maybe that combined in a short term.7) Make Divine Favor a 15minute recast, a 50% heal after death and get rid of the negative effects<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Change our tso set bonus'sm and change our focus's also, possibly something with base taunt amount for one set bonus,9) Increase Holy touch to 7.5/8k at M1, with tanks at 20k+ 5k is too smallWhat i wouldn't want is utility like i think some people have suggested, i want to tank not be in raids for my buffs, the crit mit would be find along with extra 5% base heal from our bayle's leadership. My list was actually longer than i though it would be, but yer this is what i would like to improve the class

Cyrdemac

02-25-2009, 04:09 AM

<cite>Laxxor wrote:</cite><blockquote>7) Make Divine Favor a 15minute recast, a 50% heal after death and get rid of the negative effects</blockquote>You do know, that Divine Favor has stripped of all negative effects and triggers a 2-hit stoneskin after triggering?