Guardian hate test

[aislynn00]

<p>Last night, my wife and I grouped up on the test server and went to Deep Forge to test my single-target hate generation.</p><p>The group was comprised of a dirge (running DPS song, Power Ballad, Master II Hyran's, Allegro, Luck of the Dirge, Fortissimo, and Don't Kill the Messenger), a templar, and myself, an 80th level guardian with 174 AA points, all of which have been devoted to maximizing hate generation, DPS, and survivability, in that order. </p><p>In the warrior tree, I am spec'ed Str, Sta, and Int, having gone all the way to the final ability in the Int line.  I don't have any AA's yet in the TSO guardian line but have taken everything worthwhile in the fighter and warrior TSO lines.</p><p>I am wearing a full set of upgraded void shard armor, arguably the best gear you are able to acquire without raiding, plus fabled raid drops in a couple of slots, including a shield.  I have the Hatespike II proc'ing charm from Nu'Roga.</p><p>All my buffs and taunts are Master I or Master II.  All CA's but Retaliatory Strike, Overmatch, and the casting skill debuff (the named escapes me) are Master I; the three mentioned CA's are Adept III.</p><p>Give the above, I'd say my guardian is pretty close to the cap in what you are able to achieve in terms of hate generation without being a raider (and I do have a few raid drops, so my character is probably even a bit beyond that).</p><p>On live, I usually do instances in offensive, dual-wielding, wearing the Jewel of Animosity, but for this test, I tried several combinations, both with and without the Jewel.  I ran all tests multiple times, averaging out the results to get the most accurate average DPS and hate per second (HPS) results.</p><p>I used my CA's in order to maximize hate output, so non-attack taunts first, prioritizing those with the shortest reuse times, then Decimate to cut down on avoided attacks, followed by all taunt attacks, then the rest of my CA's, with Executioner's Strike being used right before Mar to maximize the probability of it crit'ing. </p><p>If a CA higher on my priority list became available again before I was all the way through the list (happened a lot, needless to say), I would go back and use it immediately.</p><p>I used both my AE's, even though I was fighting a single target.  Given the massive hate components on both abilities, it seemed worth the long casting times. </p><p>The only CA that wasn't used at all was Lay Waste; it is completely pointless right now, given the hate component of Siege.  Do note: Since I was trying to test sustained hate generation, I didn't use any snap-aggro abilities (i.e., Rescue, Reinforcement, Snarl, Cry of the Warrior).</p><p><strong>Test 1 (Fabled Epic + Shield, no Jewel, 22% Hate Modifier)</strong></p><p>1341 DPS3168 HPS from taunts, taunt procs, and taunt components on CA's</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Total HPS (including DPS Hate Modifier): 4804</span></p><p><strong>Test 2 (Fabled Epic + Shield, Jewel of Animosity, 27% Hate Modifier)</strong></p><p>1421 DPS3182 HPS from taunts, taunt procs, and taunt components on CA's</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Total HPS (including DPS Hate Modifier): 4987</span></p><p><strong>Test 3 (Fabled Epic + Nathsar Shortsword, Jewel of Animosity, 27% Hate Modifier)</strong></p><p>1621 DPS3353 HPS from taunts, taunt procs, and taunt components on CA's</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Total HPS (including DPS Hate Modifier): 5412</span></p><p><strong>Conclusions</strong></p><p>Personally, the results didn't surprise me that much, aside from the relatively minor impact the Jewel of Animosity seemed to have; I had expected more in that regard.</p><p>The resist rate on taunts wasn't terrible, but then again, we were fighting 82nd level mobs.  It would be nice to try further testing vs orange-con mobs, but I'm not sure where to find those on the test server, given that my wife and I aren't able, nor do we have the time, to clear most of the way through zones like Atrebe's Lab to get to the orange-con mobs.</p><p>I missed with an average of 25% of all auto-attacks, which was unpleasant, to say the least.  Vs orange-cons, without accuracy buffs from a dirge or warden, I would undoubtedly have missed more than 50% of the time, assuming things work the way they do on the live servers.</p><p>I must say that I am more than a little concerned if the changes go live in their current state.  I usually group with equivalently equipped mage and scout guildmates who are sitting around 5K DPS when going all out (as I was in the tests) as well as our best-equipped assassin, who frequently passes the 10K mark vs named. </p><p>I don't see who on earth I'm supposed to hold aggro vs him these days, especially without a dirge and coercer in the group (keep in mind, my tests were all performed while grouped with a dirge running the ideal songs for hate generation).  Moderate will lower his HPS by around 1500, leaving me still more than 5K HPS behind him, assuming I don't use the Jewel of Animosity and retain my shield--and that should be considered the norm, I would say.  I am tanking, after all, not trying to DPS.</p><p>Another problem which hadn't occurred to me until I actually ran the tests was caused by the low reuse time on taunts and taunt attacks.  I ended up having to leave half my CA's untouched for many seconds because one or more taunts or taunt attacks were available (and of course had to be given priority in order to maximize hate generation).  This, in turn, caused me to parse much lower DPS from CA's than on the live servers, thus further reducing my hate generation.</p><p>Hence, I would prefer longer reuse times on taunts in return for them generating more hate per use.  This goes for Impede and Guard in particular.</p><p>Finally, Holding the Line, Aggressive Nature, and Ultra Enraging Presence.  Ultra Enraging Presence generated less than 50 HPS, Holding the Line averaged out at about 150 HPS, while Aggressive Nature afforded an extra 200 hate.  It seems Ultra Enraging Presence is resisted more than Holding the Line, perhaps because of the resist used (magic vs mental); it would take further testing to state anything conclusive. </p><p>At any rate, I was certainly not very happy with the effectiveness of any of my reactive taunt procs; Holding the Line in particular is a complete joke compared to the hate procs afforded by the shadow knight defensive stance. </p><p>Since we are a single-target tank, why don't guardians have attack-based hate procs instead of reactive hate procs, which seem more in keeping with an AE tank?</p>

[Tandy]

<p>I cant beleive I just read a TANK asking for longer recasts on taunts so his DPS can be higher.  This sums up the whole reasons the changes came about in a nutshell.</p>

[aislynn00]

<p>It isn't really a matter of me wanting more DPS--I couldn't care less about DPS as long as I'm able to hold aggro.  Rather, I'd like to be able to use my three low-DPS debuffs (which are all CA's) without having to significantly reduce my hate generation by doing so--and if I leave multiple taunts sitting unused while I use said debuffs, that is exactly what I'd be doing.</p><p>Let's not forget that a tank's primary job is comprised of two elements: staying alive and holding aggro.  I don't believe that one should preclude, or restrict, the other.  If the devs reduced my DPS output in defensive by another 25% while boosting my overall hate generation by 50%, I, for one, would be happy.</p>

[Tandy]

<p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It isn't really a matter of me wanting more DPS--I couldn't care less about DPS as long as I'm able to hold aggro.  Rather, I'd like to be able to use my three debuffs without having to significantly reduce my hate generation by doing so.  Those debuffs are CA's, you know.</p></blockquote><p>Ok I can understand that. But most taunts are 1 second cast time. single target taunt is like 9 or 10 seconds recast at least.  There should be a good casting order you can work up with that I would think. I know on crusaders there is a mini 'time compression' you get so its a bit diffrent for them over warriors, but still should be staggering cast times you can find without asking for taunts to be made longer recast</p><p>The ability to cast em often is a good thing and I would rather have the option to cast them often that to be stuck in a situation where I am waiting on recast timers on them.</p>

[aislynn00]

<p>What it all boils down to is, I currently do <em>not</em> have the hate generation that I need to hold aggro, not even with all the relevant masters and a dirge in the group.  What happens when the dirge isn't there?  It certainly doesn't get any easier.</p>

[Noaani]

<p>Fortunatly for you, as a guardian, you have 4 abilities that will instantly increase your position on the hate list. The correct use of these is what will seperate a good tank from a not so good tank.</p>

[Freliant]

<p>Threat is not just raw hate per second (HPS). You also have other tools at your disposal that all factor into keeping hate.</p><p>For example, you can deagro someone in your group (on live, with AA, it can be 41% deagro to a single target).</p><p>You can also use position increases, like rescue (2mins 30 seconds with AA), Reinforcements (3 Mins), The Shadow AA taunt (4mins 30 seconds and forces the mob on you for 8 seconds), and the guardian Shadown AA which is a big taunt coupled with a hate over time.</p><p>You also have the AoE root, which holds the mob on you for 8+ seconds (if not epic, in which case its 4 seconds).</p><p>All those are tools on a fairly quick recast timer, and each of which you can use in case someone was ripping agro from you.</p><p>A few things now... You didn't mention the average time the mob was alive... the longer it is alive, the more the hate would flatten out. You also didn't mention what other dps classes you have in yout group... just a dirge to hate buff you and a templar to heal you. Other classes have added dehate now, and while main hate gain is your responsibility, other classes can now do more to generate much less hate. For example, the Wizard can dump up to 28% of their hate with AA, and if they use their AA pet, another 4% for a total of 32% dehate, without going into the intelligence line, which will further decrease their hate by another percentage chunk (although I don't see anyone going that line just for hate generation).</p><p>The other thing is... if I had a tank generating 4800-5400 hps, there is very little chance that I will ever rip agro from him. Most dps classes, with the exception of mythical wielding dps classes are currently averaging 2-4k damage, at max, and the mythical wielders can increase that to close to 6k zone wide at their best in group dungeons (not counting assassins, which are parsing ridiculously high.. but that is another issue altogether).</p><p>If you are arguing for raid tanking, then there are so many + hate features you will have, and dehate abilities that will be placed on people that it will become a no-contest deal.</p><p>Overall, I think you proved that hate generation is at the level that it should be with this expansion, and probably even better than people are dreaming.</p><p>Finally, you have to do your run with no stance, like I did, and you will notice, that while you are taking slightly more damage than in full defensive, you are now doing more dps, and have no penalties on your taunts. Like I said in another post, I ran some instances with no stance on and only put the defensive stance on when I was going up against named... and I never lost agro during any of the runs, except when we purposely let the mob go to see how quickly I could pull agro back without using hate position swaps, and the dps going all out (Turns out that 3 new taunts did it right away, lol ).</p><p>Please get a full group, and not just bare-bone taunt group to see how this new taunt change pans out. I did and I enjoyed it.</p>

[Jrral]

<p>Also bear in mind the aggro changes with TSO. Pre-TSO 1 point of damage was equal to 1 point of hate in terms of aggro. TSO changed that to make 1 point of hate generation (taunts or the like) generate more aggro than 1 point of simple damage. When I tested in beta, I found a major difference between, for instance, the conventional STR 4-4-8 setup vs. STR 4-4-4-8 giving additional hate generation and taunt amount, with it being noticeably easier to hold aggro with the second allocation vs. the first.</p><p>My acid test in the TSO beta was: could I hold aggro in Scion of Ice against a raid-geared warlock using nothing but auto-attack, War Pledge and my taunts, no damage CAs allowed. The answer, suprisingly, was yes, I could. Not easily, but on live at the time it'd be completely impossible. That's what convinced me the mechanics really were changing that much.</p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Threat is not just raw hate per second (HPS). You also have other tools at your disposal that all factor into keeping hate.</blockquote><p>The other thing to take into account is debuff and control effect hate</p><p>A debuff has a set amount of hate it generates, as do control effects. Almost all guardian combat arts have one or the other attached to them, so these generate more hate than what is being parsed. The exact amount it generates is up for debate, but the fact that they generate that hate is not.</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>For example, you can deagro someone in your group (on live, with AA, it can be 41% deagro to a single target).<p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Yeah, Moderate on the live servers is a 36% hate reducer.  Unfortunately, it has been nerfed to hell and back on the test server, where the hate reduction modifier is a mere 13%.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">With that on a 10K parsing assassin, we are "merely" looking at 9700 hate per second to beat.  Compare that to the live game where the assassin was dumping something like 1500 HPS with his hate transfer plus 3600 due to Moderate for a total of 5100 hate.</span></p><p>You can also use position increases, like rescue (2mins 30 seconds with AA), Reinforcements (3 Mins), The Shadow AA taunt (4mins 30 seconds and forces the mob on you for 8 seconds), and the guardian Shadown AA which is a big taunt coupled with a hate over time.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Which I previously stated weren't the focus of my test.  I was testing sustained hate generation, which doesn't have anything to do with snap aggro abilities.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">When I have to rely on Reinforcement, Rescue, and the like to hold aggro vs non-hate-wiping mobs that I myself pulled (as opposed to them adding during the fight), then my hate generation is broken.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">By the way, have you had a look at the reuse times on those abilities? If I lose aggro just one single time per fight--and it is going to be way more than that--there is no way I would have even a single one of those abilities available every fight.  Rather, I'd have to deal with aggro loss and assassins, wizards, or brigands tanking most fights, with me grabbing aggro back once (Reinforcement being the exception, since it is able to recover aggro several times for 13 sec) perhaps every third or fourth fight, only to lose it immediately afterwards again.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">If you think snap-aggro abilities are the answer to too low sustained hate generation, I'm agraid you don't really know how the game works.  Snap-aggro abilities are situational tools for dealing with adds, the occasional fluke in sustained hate generation, and charming/hate-wiping mobs.  Nothing more or less.</span></p><p>You also have the AoE root, which holds the mob on you for 8+ seconds (if not epic, in which case its 4 seconds).</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">You are really reaching.  Preventing a mage from dying for a few seconds via a root doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with the topic of this post: sustained hate generation.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">A root also doesn't do jack vs an assassin, brigand, or other melee damage dealer.</span> </p><p>A few things now... You didn't mention the average time the mob was alive... the longer it is alive, the more the hate would flatten out. You also didn't mention what other dps classes you have in yout group... just a dirge to hate buff you and a templar to heal you.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">It was me, the healer, the dirge, and a paladin in what passes for DPS mode for them.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">We subsequently ran similar tests with the paladin tanking and me DPS'ing.  Neither one of us had any issues whatsoever holding aggro.  I could barely reach 50% of the paladin's hate in offensive (I wasn't using pure taunts but I did use Infraction and Kick), despite him being rather less well-geared than me.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Considering that the numbers I stated for each test case were averaged over the course of a number of fights, hate had time to, as you put it, "flatten out".  Again, I was looking for sustained hate generation, not burst hate generation during one 10 - 15 second fight.</span></p><p>Other classes have added dehate now, and while main hate gain is your responsibility, other classes can now do more to generate much less hate. For example, the Wizard can dump up to 28% of their hate with AA, and if they use their AA pet, another 4% for a total of 32% dehate, without going into the intelligence line, which will further decrease their hate by another percentage chunk (although I don't see anyone going that line just for hate generation).</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">I wouldn't know the first thing about wizard AA abilities, but last I checked, it was poor design to force people into a single AA spec in order for them to do their job.  I don't believe the wizard I group with on a regular basis has the 28% hate dump you mention, which implies that it isn't the best spec for maximizing DPS.  And really, that is what damage dealers should be trying to do, isn't it: maximizing DPS.  If I can't hold aggro with them burning hard, then why not go with another tank class--say, shadow knights--which don't suffer similar issues.</span></p><p>The other thing is... if I had a tank generating 4800-5400 hps, there is very little chance that I will ever rip agro from him. Most dps classes, with the exception of mythical wielding dps classes are currently averaging 2-4k damage, at max, and the mythical wielders can increase that to close to 6k zone wide at their best in group dungeons (not counting assassins, which are parsing ridiculously high.. but that is another issue altogether).</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">I group with a mythicaled assassin (a guildmate of mine) pretty much every single day.  The new version of his hate transfer (a hate reduction proc now) is a joke.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">And before you start talking about mythicaled people being in a league of their own and not comparable to someone geared like me, try again.  If I had my mythical, I would generate about 30% more auto-attack DPS with my mythical, which translates into about 10% more total DPS on the test server, a whopping 150 more HPS.  Do keep in mind, the guardian epic doesn't have anything which improves hate generation aside from a 30% damage rating increase.</span></p><p>If you are arguing for raid tanking, then there are so many + hate features you will have, and dehate abilities that will be placed on people that it will become a no-contest deal.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Oh, really?  I don't see how on earth <em>any</em> RoK raid-equipped guardian tank could ever hope to hold aggro vs assassins and wizards parsing 12K+ zonewide on raids--short of having the Trakanon shield, which is indubitably going to be nerfed, too, before all of this goes live.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Consider: </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">  o There aren't any taunt or critical taunt modifiers on any RoK raid gear.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">  o There aren't upgrades to the Master I and Master II taunts I have used in my tests.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">  o The only hate generation improvements a guardian would get by gearing up in RoK are purely DPS-based, primarily focused on auto-attack, and we all know what a massive hit tanks took in that regard.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">  o While a guardian in a full MT group would have coercer buffs, I somehow don't see them doubling the guardian's hate generation, which would be required.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">  o Apart from the coercer buff Peaceful Link and the assassin's own Murderous Design, both of rather limited effectiveness, an assassin in a melee DPS group won't have any hate reduction procs available on raids.</span></p><p>Overall, I think you proved that hate generation is at the level that it should be with this expansion, and probably even better than people are dreaming.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Right.  Guardian hate generation, which is too low in the live game today, the lowest of any plate tank by far, is being reduced even further, and that is "even better than people are dreaming."</span></p><p>Please get a full group, and not just bare-bone taunt group to see how this new taunt change pans out. I did and I enjoyed it.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">And you play, what, a shadow knight?  And how many people in your group dealt 12K vs named?  The assassin I group with does.</span></p></blockquote>

[Illine]

<p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It isn't really a matter of me wanting more DPS--I couldn't care less about DPS as long as I'm able to hold aggro.  Rather, I'd like to be able to use my three low-DPS debuffs (which are all CA's) without having to significantly reduce my hate generation by doing so--and if I leave multiple taunts sitting unused while I use said debuffs, that is exactly what I'd be doing.</p><p>Let's not forget that a tank's primary job is comprised of two elements: staying alive and holding aggro.  I don't believe that one should preclude, or restrict, the other.  If the devs reduced my DPS output in defensive by another 25% while boosting my overall hate generation by 50%, I, for one, would be happy.</p></blockquote><p>but remember you still need to kill the mob.</p><p>diminishing DPS, fine but not nullifying it. the dps the tank has lost will not be gained by other classes. Even worse if dps classes have to be carefull too for not taking aggro now.</p><p>there are fights where you need a permanent dps to kill the mob, or where you need to kill the mob in X seconds. On fights like that the dps of the tank is also important. not to hold aggro but to kill the mob. And if the tank can't dps as much while the dps ou the dps classes hasn't been increased ... it means it will be a bit harder to kill things on time.</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<p>You aren't going to get an honest answer out of a SK on hate abilties on Test.  Single target all plate tanks are within 6% if you just look at the abilities with "threat" on them.  AoE there is about 700% between top and bottom.  And guess who's top?</p>

[UNTILitSLEEPS]

<p><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also bear in mind the aggro changes with TSO. Pre-TSO 1 point of damage was equal to 1 point of hate in terms of aggro. TSO changed that to make 1 point of hate generation (taunts or the like) generate more aggro than 1 point of simple damage.</p></blockquote><p>any proof for this?</p><p>afiak 1hate = 1 dmg still and will remain so</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>UNTILitSLEEPS wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also bear in mind the aggro changes with TSO. Pre-TSO 1 point of damage was equal to 1 point of hate in terms of aggro. TSO changed that to make 1 point of hate generation (taunts or the like) generate more aggro than 1 point of simple damage.</p></blockquote><p>any proof for this?</p><p>afiak 1hate = 1 dmg still and will remain so</p></blockquote><p>I, for one, haven't heard or seen anything which would indicate that the 1 damage = 1 hate equation isn't valid any longer.</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Fortunatly for you, as a guardian, you have 4 abilities that will instantly increase your position on the hate list. The correct use of these is what will seperate a good tank from a not so good tank.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, this is the way to design the game!!!</p><p>Let's give tanks 3-4 "Oh Crap!!!" Rescue buttons they can press frequently. Let's make them so critical to the GROUP NOT DYING that they become part of their casting rotation.</p><p>Did you hear they are speeding up the recast on Ranger's 2 "Oh Crap!!!" Deagro buttons so we can press them more often? I guess I will have to fire one of these EVERY TIME I go through my casting rotation as well?</p><p>Again, does this make the game more fun making it a constant struggle for agro? I can tell you when I started grouping with an undergeared SK, it was NOT FUN trying to hold back agro and killing mobs twice as slow. It was just ANNOYING. I wished he had better gear, better taunts and he apologized profusely to me.</p><p>Are SoE really out of ideas on how to make EQ2 better?</p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Let's give tanks 3-4 "Oh Crap!!!" Rescue buttons they can press frequently. Let's make them so critical to the GROUP NOT DYING that they become part of their casting rotation.</blockquote><p>A guardian can afford to use one of these abilities every 40 seconds. They are no longer "oh crap" effects, they are tools that can be used every encounter.</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p>Ummm, interesting stuff. Does this mean I'm going to have to put the MT on my Jester's Cap rotation? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>UNTILitSLEEPS wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also bear in mind the aggro changes with TSO. Pre-TSO 1 point of damage was equal to 1 point of hate in terms of aggro. TSO changed that to make 1 point of hate generation (taunts or the like) generate more aggro than 1 point of simple damage.</p></blockquote><p>any proof for this?</p><p>afiak 1hate = 1 dmg still and will remain so</p></blockquote><p>I, for one, haven't heard or seen anything which would indicate that the 1 damage = 1 hate equation isn't valid any longer.</p></blockquote><p>That's because it's still valid. He likes to push that in every thread involving hate hoping someone will buy it.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Let's give tanks 3-4 "Oh Crap!!!" Rescue buttons they can press frequently. Let's make them so critical to the GROUP NOT DYING that they become part of their casting rotation.</blockquote><p>A guardian can afford to use one of these abilities every 40 seconds. They are no longer "oh crap" effects, they are tools that can be used every encounter.</p></blockquote><p>Except that one of those...the TSO Warior end-line only lands 1 in 8 times and when it does it does not last the 8sec it says it should.</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Fortunatly for you, as a guardian, you have 4 abilities that will instantly increase your position on the hate list. The correct use of these is what will seperate a good tank from a not so good tank.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, this is the way to design the game!!!</p><p>Let's give tanks 3-4 "Oh Crap!!!" Rescue buttons they can press frequently. Let's make them so critical to the GROUP NOT DYING that they become part of their casting rotation.</p><p>Did you hear they are speeding up the recast on Ranger's 2 "Oh Crap!!!" Deagro buttons so we can press them more often? I guess I will have to fire one of these EVERY TIME I go through my casting rotation as well?</p><p>Again, does this make the game more fun making it a constant struggle for agro? I can tell you when I started grouping with an undergeared SK, it was NOT FUN trying to hold back agro and killing mobs twice as slow. It was just ANNOYING. I wished he had better gear, better taunts and he apologized profusely to me.</p></blockquote><p>And this is what we are about to return to, unless hate values are tweaked significantly (i.e., 30% - 50% more potent single-target taunts <em>or</em> significant single-target hate procs off all melee and spell attacks) with regards to paladins and guardians.</p><p>I can't begin to express how sick and tired I am of shadow knights and berserkers completely outshining guardians--and now paladins, too--in single-target hate generation, something the single-target tanks ought to excel at and the AE tanks should to be struggling with.</p>

[Prrasha]

<p>Position shifts don't help with sustained hate generation.</p><p>If I'm generating 5000 hate per second, and the wizard is doing 10,000 DPS, he's going to have to:</p><p>1) give me time to build hate before he starts doing anything</p><p>and 2)  stop casting for a while after he peels and I use Rescue (or whatever), because a position shift just gives me "his hate value + 1".  If I don't have sustained threat generation to keep ahead, he'll just peel again after another spell or two, since he's <em>still</em> making more threat over time than me.  Doesn't matter if it's a one-place shift like the fighter AA or a 24-place shift like Holy Ground, max+1 is max+1, and 2 threat from the wizard puts him back on top.</p><p>or 3) have 5000 DPS worth of sustained deaggro for himself.</p><p>Thus, the DPSer is limited, in a zonewide sense, to the tank's sustained threat generation rate.  From the test here, it looks like that's going to be about 5000 plus whatever a coercer gives.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>when people start saying our "oh crap" buttons are a way we manage aggro then there is a problem, there is a reason why they are called that.</p>

[therodge]

<p>well i have been thourally testing my paladin, done multiple 6 person groups on test, i dont have a mythical and in mostly rok group gear (minus hate greaves and a few minor fabled peices) i cant give you numbers becuase i dont care about the acual numbers, i do know i have been running with about 26k group dps (a brig a swashy me a wizard a coericer and a defilier) all but me and coericer have mythicals, and i think out of 10 instances i lost agro twice, ( i concider looseing hate the mobbeing off me for more then 2 full seconds) amends isnt even on my hotbar becuase im currently protesting it, and frankly their is only 3 types of people who shouldent beable to hold agro</p><p>1. people who cannot adapt</p><p>2. people who dont have adept 3 or better on their spells</p><p>3. and people who group with dps who cant adapt</p><p>im not gonna give you hps, all i have is my dps parses here is an average</p><p>me 1.2k</p><p>brig 6.3k</p><p>swashy 7.1k</p><p>wiz 6.5k</p><p>coericer 3k</p><p>defilier 350 dps</p><p>thats a little of 25k grupd dps and as a not raid geared paladin i held agro, honestly i think i know the ops problem if he was looseing hate i noticed (unless i read wrong which is possable) he was hitting dps spells then hitting taunts then hitting those high dps spells when they come back up makeng them higher priority then the taunts, the answer their is no  now given a 12k assasin would have stole hate from me,  luckly being a paladin  on the rare occation i did loose agro i normally had it back with in 5 seconds thanks to holy ground, rescue, etc.</p>

[Kordran]

<p>Yes, tanking has now become a taunt fest, and they have to be given priority in the rotation. All fighters will have to get used to the fact that you can't just taunt occasionally and focus on your CAs. Taunting is now the first priority, each and every time.</p><p>To think of it in a different way. Imagine that you had two combat arts, one that does around 10K damage, another that does around 5K to every mob in the encounter, both on short recast timers. If that was in the game right now, would you not be hitting those each and every single time they came up? Of course you would. That applies to the new taunts.</p><p>When tanking, fighters need to get out of the mindset of how much damage they're doing. Fine tuning CAs, timing auto-attacks, all that stuff... out the window. Auto-attacks, which currently are a significant portion of a fighter's damage output, are nearly irrelevant in comparison to the threat generated from taunts in GU51, particularly with the overall base damage reduction inherent in the defensive stance.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>therodge wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>well i have been thourally testing my paladin, done multiple 6 person groups on test, i dont have a mythical and in mostly rok group gear (minus hate greaves and a few minor fabled peices) i cant give you numbers becuase i dont care about the acual numbers, i do know i have been running with about 26k group dps (a brig a swashy me a wizard a coericer and a defilier) all but me and coericer have mythicals, and i think out of 10 instances i lost agro twice, ( i concider looseing hate the mobbeing off me for more then 2 full seconds) amends isnt even on my hotbar becuase im currently protesting it, and frankly their is only 3 types of people who shouldent beable to hold agro</p><p>1. people who cannot adapt</p><p>2. people who dont have adept 3 or better on their spells</p><p>3. and people who group with dps who cant adapt</p><p>im not gonna give you hps, all i have is my dps parses here is an average</p><p>me 1.2k</p><p>brig 6.3k</p><p>swashy 7.1k</p><p>wiz 6.5k</p><p>coericer 3k</p><p>defilier 350 dps</p><p>thats a little of 25k grupd dps and as a not raid geared paladin i held agro, honestly i think i know the ops problem if he was looseing hate i noticed (unless i read wrong which is possable) he was hitting dps spells then hitting taunts then hitting those high dps spells when they come back up makeng them higher priority then the taunts, the answer their is no now given a 12k assasin would have stole hate from me, luckly being a paladin on the rare occation i did loose agro i normally had it back with in 5 seconds thanks to holy ground, rescue, etc.</p></blockquote><p>Thanks for the info.  I do not have any of my guild members or normal grouping friends on test server so have not been able to do any real testing....only smacking the training wall and looking at ACT.</p><p>But currently on live in TSO isntances...I struggle alot to keep aggro with scouts and mages that are only putting out 3-4k...so I am glad to see your numbers and your success.</p><p>Hopefully the same will be true for Guards.</p>

[BleemTeam]

<p>My playstyle will not change in the slightest. I am a raid MT Guardian and I for one love how all but a few people on In Testing have "gotten it". It's pretty comical at times to see the arguments...The same excuses spewed out time and time again. Some people that are posting have a pretty solid grasp on these changes, while the others just have a bad case of tunnel vision.</p><p>I know that this is flame worthy in it of itself, but... I have always tanked in defensive. I have always used a shield. Aaside from a few times, I've never had a Warden in the MT group giving me "skills." My DPS has always been 5k+ and I have always held aggro, aside from the fluke cute Ranger or Wizard on inc that thinks its "funny" to do a 30k on the pull. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Having said that; a Coercer, Dirge and Swashbuckler have helped me get my hate and I will be honest it's been for the most part "Easy Mode." The shoe is now on the other foot with DPS classes. They now much use the tools given to them to do their jobs adequately. I grind my teeth and try not to kick people out of my guild when I hear "It's a waste of DPS to use "Baffle"....Are you kidding me? LOL. Way to go, team player. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Needless to say, these changes, from a Guardian stand point aren't really significant to a player like me. I will continue to do my job exquisitely and now have more Threat than I did before at my own control.</p>

[Thanon]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes, tanking has now become a taunt fest, and they have to be given priority in the rotation. All fighters will have to get used to the fact that you can't just taunt occasionally and focus on your CAs. Taunting is now the first priority, each and every time.</p><p>T<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>o think of it in a different way. Imagine that you had two combat arts, one that does around 10K damage, another that does around 5K to every mob in the encounter, both on short recast timers. If that was in the game right now, would you not be hitting those each and every single time they came up? Of course you would. That applies to the new taunts.</strong></span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>When tanking, fighters need to get out of the mindset of how much damage they're doing. Fine tuning CAs, timing auto-attacks, all that stuff... out the window.</strong></span> Auto-attacks, which currently are a significant portion of a fighter's damage output, are nearly irrelevant in comparison to the threat generated from taunts in GU51, particularly with the overall base damage reduction inherent in the defensive stance.</p></blockquote><p>Spot on</p>

[Elanjar]

<p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Fortunatly for you, as a guardian, you have 4 abilities that will instantly increase your position on the hate list. The correct use of these is what will seperate a good tank from a not so good tank.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, this is the way to design the game!!!</p><p>Let's give tanks 3-4 "Oh Crap!!!" Rescue buttons they can press frequently. Let's make them so critical to the GROUP NOT DYING that they become part of their casting rotation.</p><p>Did you hear they are speeding up the recast on Ranger's 2 "Oh Crap!!!" Deagro buttons so we can press them more often? I guess I will have to fire one of these EVERY TIME I go through my casting rotation as well?</p><p>Again, does this make the game more fun making it a constant struggle for agro? I can tell you when I started grouping with an undergeared SK, it was NOT FUN trying to hold back agro and killing mobs twice as slow. It was just ANNOYING. I wished he had better gear, better taunts and he apologized profusely to me.</p></blockquote><p>And this is what we are about to return to, unless hate values are tweaked significantly (i.e., 30% - 50% more potent single-target taunts <em>or</em> significant single-target hate procs off all melee and spell attacks) with regards to paladins and guardians.</p><p>I can't begin to express how sick and tired I am of shadow knights and berserkers completely outshining guardians--and now paladins, too--in single-target hate generation, something the single-target tanks ought to excel at and the AE tanks should to be struggling with.</p></blockquote><p>Aww its only been a couple months of you actually having to compete and use skill to be a good tank and you're sick of us already. Liked it better when you and every other guard regardless of skill level was superior?</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p><cite>Brailyn@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Having said that; a Coercer, Dirge and Swashbuckler have helped me get my hate and I will be honest it's been for the most part "Easy Mode." <span style="font-size: small;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">The shoe is now on the other foot with DPS classes. They now much use the tools given to them to do their jobs adequately</span>.</span> I grind my teeth and try not to kick people out of my guild when I hear "It's a waste of DPS to use "Baffle"....Are you kidding me? LOL. Way to go, team player. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Most of what Brailyn said is true. The only problem is the red portion above. You do realize that the Troubadour's Alin's de-hate spell is getting a major nerf right? Instead of the current 32% (Adept III, I'd kill for the master) group hate reduction it is going down to 7%? (8% for the master).  So all those DPS'ers in the Mage group are going to really have a problem with pulling aggro if this new system isn't perfect on day one. The Alin's spell is the reason I always got the Assassin in my group, not because of my Super Fantastic buffs, but simply because of that one de-buff.</p><p><span style="font-size: small;">Yes, the DPS classes should have to use the tools given to them to do thier jobs, unfortunately some of those tools are being taken away.</span></p><p>Like I said, this new system better work great from day one or the boards will be flooded with major complaining.  Coercers better stand by. There are going to be a lot of people "demanding" your de-hate. I guess with the new system though, you'll have at least one de-hate to give out, the concentration slot that you where using to give a DPS buff to the MT can now go instead to a de-hate for someone else. Man am I glad my Coercer is now longer my main. You are about to have a few new friends and several new people who aren't going to be happy with you.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes, the DPS classes should have to use the tools given to them to do thier jobs, unfortunately some of those tools are being taken away.</p></blockquote><p>One of the tools that all classes are getting is a nice big orb that shows a number. If you're DPS, your goal is to <em><strong>NOT</strong></em> get that number to 100. That means you've just ripped from the tank. If that means ramping down your attacks, throwing up more detaunts, whatever ... then you do it.</p><p>There will be little excuse for taking aggro from the tank once GU51 hits, aside from the occasional big crit that's beyond their control. I predict that in short order, those DPS classes that just mash buttons and go for the "wtfpwnz!" big hits are going to be frequently inspecting the floor. Both tanks and healers will just stand back and watch them die, and once their gear is broken a few times, maybe they'll start to learn.</p><p>In this next update, the rules aren't just changing for tanks. They're changing for <em><strong>everyone</strong></em>.</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Fortunatly for you, as a guardian, you have 4 abilities that will instantly increase your position on the hate list. The correct use of these is what will seperate a good tank from a not so good tank.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, this is the way to design the game!!!</p><p>Let's give tanks 3-4 "Oh Crap!!!" Rescue buttons they can press frequently. Let's make them so critical to the GROUP NOT DYING that they become part of their casting rotation.</p><p>Did you hear they are speeding up the recast on Ranger's 2 "Oh Crap!!!" Deagro buttons so we can press them more often? I guess I will have to fire one of these EVERY TIME I go through my casting rotation as well?</p><p>Again, does this make the game more fun making it a constant struggle for agro? I can tell you when I started grouping with an undergeared SK, it was NOT FUN trying to hold back agro and killing mobs twice as slow. It was just ANNOYING. I wished he had better gear, better taunts and he apologized profusely to me.</p></blockquote><p>And this is what we are about to return to, unless hate values are tweaked significantly (i.e., 30% - 50% more potent single-target taunts <em>or</em> significant single-target hate procs off all melee and spell attacks) with regards to paladins and guardians.</p><p>I can't begin to express how sick and tired I am of shadow knights and berserkers completely outshining guardians--and now paladins, too--in single-target hate generation, something the single-target tanks ought to excel at and the AE tanks should to be struggling with.</p></blockquote><p>Aww its only been a couple months of you actually having to compete and use skill to be a good tank and you're sick of us already. Liked it better when you and every other guard regardless of skill level was superior?</p></blockquote><p>I think you have guardians confused with the average paladin. </p><p>Outside of raids, where berserk procs didn't matter much due to stat caps, non-mythical'ed berserkers were universally superior to non-mythical'ed guardians in hate generation, single target and AE alike. </p><p>The over-powered, pre-nerf guardian mythical changed things, of course, but then, the nerfed guardian mythical and the new berserker mythical swung the balance the other way.</p><p>And as I mentioned in my initial post, I don't have my mythical, meaning anything discussed here pertains to group-geared tanks, so I don't get why you are even posting in this thread.</p>

[BleemTeam]

<p>@ ^^ Poster.</p><p>Troubador's song is a nice buff. Sure. However...consider this. While in a "Mage Group" A ranger or wizard or whatever can just go to town and never have to worry about taking agro. Most of these "classes" will never concussive, never dehate, never baffle, never spy, never...etc, etc etc. Why?</p><p>Because it hurts their parse. My red portion from your Quote still holds true. While I agree the Troub buff is nice, its not a tool that classes can/should use on their own. My Threat is going up a ton... HUGE... coercer, dirge still going to be with me. Having said that - the other DPS classes are going to have to use those tools.</p>

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p><cite>therodge wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>well i have been thourally testing my paladin, done multiple 6 person groups on test, i dont have a mythical and in mostly rok group gear (minus hate greaves and a few minor fabled peices) i cant give you numbers becuase i dont care about the acual numbers, i do know i have been running with about 26k group dps (a brig a swashy me a wizard a coericer and a defilier) all but me and coericer have mythicals, and i think out of 10 instances i lost agro twice, ( i concider looseing hate the mobbeing off me for more then 2 full seconds) amends isnt even on my hotbar becuase im currently protesting it, and frankly their is only 3 types of people who shouldent beable to hold agro</p><p>1. people who cannot adapt</p><p>2. people who dont have adept 3 or better on their spells</p><p>3. and people who group with dps who cant adapt</p><p>im not gonna give you hps, all i have is my dps parses here is an average</p><p>me 1.2k</p><p>brig 6.3k</p><p>swashy 7.1k</p><p>wiz 6.5k</p><p>coericer 3k</p><p>defilier 350 dps</p><p>thats a little of 25k grupd dps and as a not raid geared paladin i held agro, honestly i think i know the ops problem if he was looseing hate i noticed (unless i read wrong which is possable) he was hitting dps spells then hitting taunts then hitting those high dps spells when they come back up makeng them higher priority then the taunts, the answer their is no  now given a 12k assasin would have stole hate from me,  luckly being a paladin  on the rare occation i did loose agro i normally had it back with in 5 seconds thanks to holy ground, rescue, etc.</p></blockquote><p>I dont have the option to play on test myself... but I soooo hope your right.. Luckily most of my spells are allready M1.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Noob1974]

<p><cite>Brailyn@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>@ ^^ Poster.</p><p>Troubador's song is a nice buff. Sure. However...consider this. While in a "Mage Group" A ranger or wizard or whatever can just go to town and never have to worry about taking agro. Most of these "classes" will never concussive, never dehate, never baffle, never spy, never...etc, etc etc. Why?</p><p>Because it hurts their parse. My red portion from your Quote still holds true. While I agree the Troub buff is nice, its not a tool that classes can/should use on their own. My Threat is going up a ton... HUGE... coercer, dirge still going to be with me. Having said that - the other DPS classes are going to have to use those tools.</p></blockquote><p>          Thats completely BS, have you ever played a ranger ? Than you would know even with 50% deaggro ( Primal Agility 27% M1 and either that troub buff or empathic link from coercer and on top of that mastercrafted deaggro poison)  a ranger can easily pull aggro. Every good ranger will use spy and the scout deaggro, especially since theres no active hate transfer from assasine or swashy anymore.</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>ordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There will be little excuse for taking aggro from the tank once GU51 hits, aside from the occasional big crit that's beyond their control. I predict that in short order, those DPS classes that just mash buttons and go for the "wtfpwnz!" big hits are going to be frequently inspecting the floor. Both tanks and healers will just stand back and watch them die, and once their gear is broken a few times, maybe they'll start to learn.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry, but this is NOT FUN. I do manage my agro. I use detaunts, ignorant bliss, and Blame Arrow at the right times. I use Deagros if the mob gets on me (on bigger fights, I target the mob so I can tell who it is agroed on). But in a situation where all of those are not enough, it becomes VERY BORING to play my class. I rolled a DPS character, and that is what I do. If I cannot do my job, then I get VERY BORED playing it.</p><p>Instead of trying to maximize my DPS, I click less buttons and browse Blogs or websites on my other PC. Is that what I am supposed to do while I am waiting for the tank to get agro back? Predators do not have any utility. Just 1-2 debuffs and lots of DPS. If we cannot DPS, then we are just taking up space in a group. There are encounters and mobs in EQ2 which REQUIRE HIGH SUSTAINED GROUP/RAID DPS such as Tairiza. These encounters cannot be beaten with lower DPS. What is your response to that? "We'll adapt" is an unacceptable answer by the way.</p><p>Here's a big question. How the hell are raids supposed to tank stuff in Shard of Hate or Doomcoil in Protector's Realm. Those mobs require 2-3 tanks to constantly taunt and fight for agro. Seems like this is going to be broken with these changes.</p><p>Making agro management a substantial part of playing every encounter in EQ2 will ruin the game. It's ok for a few fights, but not the whole game.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There will be little excuse for taking aggro from the tank once GU51 hits, aside from the occasional big crit that's beyond their control. I predict that in short order, those DPS classes that just mash buttons and go for the "wtfpwnz!" big hits are going to be frequently inspecting the floor. Both tanks and healers will just stand back and watch them die, and once their gear is broken a few times, maybe they'll start to learn.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry, but this is NOT FUN. I do manage my agro. I use detaunts, ignorant bliss, and Blame Arrow at the right times. I use Deagros if the mob gets on me (on bigger fights, I target the mob so I can tell who it is agroed on). But in a situation where all of those are not enough, it becomes VERY BORING to play my class. I rolled a DPS character, and that is what I do. If I cannot do my job, then I get VERY BORED playing it.</p><p>Instead of trying to maximize my DPS, I click less buttons and browse Blogs or websites on my other PC. Is that what I am supposed to do while I am waiting for the tank to get agro back? Predators do not have any utility. Just 1-2 debuffs and lots of DPS. If we cannot DPS, then we are just taking up space in a group. There are encounters and mobs in EQ2 which REQUIRE HIGH SUSTAINED GROUP/RAID DPS such as Tairiza. These encounters cannot be beaten with lower DPS. What is your response to that? "We'll adapt" is an unacceptable answer by the way.</p><p>Here's a big question. How the hell are raids supposed to tank stuff in Shard of Hate or Doomcoil in Protector's Realm. Those mobs require 2-3 tanks to constantly taunt and fight for agro. Seems like this is going to be broken with these changes.</p><p>Making agro management a substantial part of playing every encounter in EQ2 will ruin the game. It's ok for a few fights, but not the whole game.</p></blockquote><p>So .... the thing that changes is that you'll have some insight into how close you are to yanking aggro before it actually happens. You'll know "Hey, if I hit this big red button I look to be safe from pulling aggro" or "Hey, I'd better have a deaggro ready for after I hit this big red button." How exactly is this bad?</p><p>Those specific encounters you mentioned are already hella-easier with just a few of the AA abilities in TSO.</p>

[Macross_JR]

<p>Feldon, I'm sorry, but group agro management has always been part of the game, always.  You say you use deagros if the mob gets on you, why not use them while the mob is not on you to lower your hate so it doesn't get on you? Pro-active is always better then reactive, period.  I get sick of dps classes who say they don't want to use their deagros when they don't have the mob beating on them and only use it when they have agro.  It's not good group agro management.</p><p>Are some peoples roles going to change, yes.  Is it for the better, yes.  DPS classes need to learn it's not all about the tank holding agro, it's about them not getting agro.  Sony is giving everyone the tools to do just that and once this hits live the people that will adapt to it will grow stronger and the ones that don't adapt will find themselves not getting groups due to them not being able to control their hate.</p>

[Noob1974]

<p>I usually have Spy in my CA Rotation and use afterwards Selection when approppriate, it never hurt my dps. I heard the new version of Spy brings in  faster casting, havent seen it yet, so you can use stealthy fire afterwards.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's a big question. How the hell are raids supposed to tank stuff in Shard of Hate or Doomcoil in Protector's Realm. Those mobs require 2-3 tanks to constantly taunt and fight for agro. Seems like this is going to be broken with these changes.</p></blockquote><p>I don't know who you're raiding with, but aside from the sisters in SoH (which is a gimicky fight that requires a warrior, crusader and brawler) the mobs in there don't require "2-3 tanks constantly taunting". Neither does Doomcoil in PR. Yes, he'll switch targets -- that's why you have everyone target him directly, and when a healer or dps gets aggro, they run him back up to the tank. The fights that you're talking about are brain-dead simple, and I honestly don't see any problem with them in the upcoming patch.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's a big question. How the hell are raids supposed to tank stuff in Shard of Hate or Doomcoil in Protector's Realm. Those mobs require 2-3 tanks to constantly taunt and fight for agro. Seems like this is going to be broken with these changes.</p></blockquote><p>I don't know who you're raiding with, but aside from the sisters in SoH (which is a gimicky fight that requires a warrior, crusader and brawler) the mobs in there don't require "2-3 tanks constantly taunting". Neither does Doomcoil in PR. Yes, he'll switch targets -- that's why you have everyone target him directly, and when a healer or dps gets aggro, they run him back up to the tank. The fights that you're talking about are brain-dead simple, and I honestly don't see any problem with them in the upcoming patch.</p></blockquote><p>Maestro requires multiple tanks switching regularly.</p>

[BleemTeam]

<p>Then the tanks in question will... Wait... Oh whats ... gah.. Sec...</p><p>Oh yeah, be in [Removed for Content] Defensive stance "fighting for aggro"...</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's a big question. How the hell are raids supposed to tank stuff in Shard of Hate or Doomcoil in Protector's Realm. Those mobs require 2-3 tanks to constantly taunt and fight for agro. Seems like this is going to be broken with these changes.</p></blockquote><p>I don't know who you're raiding with, but aside from the sisters in SoH (which is a gimicky fight that requires a warrior, crusader and brawler) the mobs in there don't require "2-3 tanks constantly taunting". Neither does Doomcoil in PR. Yes, he'll switch targets -- that's why you have everyone target him directly, and when a healer or dps gets aggro, they run him back up to the tank. The fights that you're talking about are brain-dead simple, and I honestly don't see any problem with them in the upcoming patch.</p></blockquote><p>Maestro requires multiple tanks switching regularly.</p></blockquote><p>You're right, that's another gimicky fight with forced tank switches. But I don't see how the update is going to change any of that. The mob selects a tank and ignores the others (in the case of Maestro, every 40 seconds or so). If you're one of the tanks being ignored, there's no need to spam anything until the next tank switch is about to occur. But, yes, just as with the sisters, when a switch happens, it's a taunt fest to make sure the selected tank has control of the encounter. In that regards, pre-GU51 and post-GU51 will substantially be the same. (Edit: and in any case, you'll have fighters using their snap aggro ... which will be better in GU51, not worse, as long as they either stay in defensive or "stance dance" before the switch).</p>

[Hirofortis]

<p>** Sarcasam On **</p><p>OMG, we have to tank in defensive and taunt. The world is ending. Save us Save us.  Don't change things now SOE, we want to be in the same downward spiral we have been in with tanks out DPSing scouts and only controlling agro becasue we have better DPS. </p><p>**Sarcasam Off**</p><p>Tanking is finallly getting the overhall it has needed for a long time. Tanks will have to taunt instead of DPSing. All I can say is it is about time.  I would love to see these changes tommorow if they could do it, but still get to wait.  To those that think the only way they can hold agro is though DPS, get over it and learn to tank.  DPS will still be part of your arsenal, but now you have to learn to taunt. Dust off those buttons and start practicing.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><span >Those gimicky fights will be way easier with the new system.</span></p>

[Ventisly]

<p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hence, I would prefer longer reuse times on taunts in return for them generating more hate per use. This goes for Impede and Guard in particular.</p></blockquote><p>Wanna know what makes a good tank?  Paying attention to the extra effects on spells such as Impede and knowing when to use them.  Horrible suggestion Khayne.</p>

[Jeepned2]

<p><cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Feldon, I'm sorry, but group agro management has always been part of the game, always.  You say you use deagros if the mob gets on you, why not use them while the mob is not on you to lower your hate so it doesn't get on you? Pro-active is always better then reactive, period.  I get sick of dps classes who say they don't want to use their deagros when they don't have the mob beating on them and only use it when they have agro.  It's not good group agro management.</p><p>Are some peoples roles going to change, yes.  Is it for the better, yes.  DPS classes need to learn it's not all about the tank holding agro, it's about them not getting agro.  Sony is giving everyone the tools to do just that and once this hits live the people that will adapt to it will grow stronger and the ones that don't adapt will find themselves not getting groups due to them not being able to control their hate.</p></blockquote><p>Ok Gimbel, I know you're a raider but remember the Trak fight? You know, the one where you only have 10 mins to kill him before the platform lowers into the the lava? This fight requires high DPS. So now you are telling the DPSers to scale back on thier DPS because of aggro issues. Some fights, like Trak, are going to be almost impossible for some guilds to complete if you are telling them they have to scale back on thier DPS. Ok, granted, most high DPSers are lazy when it comes to using their own de-hate, but for a long time they have been able to get away with it. Now they can't. Even without GU51 they can't. The tougher mobs in the new content simply demands they do it or eat dirt for awhile. Those who can't seem to get that down, are now looking for new guilds or if they have some redeeming qualities, they are finding themselves sitting out of the raid more often.</p><p>Do you really think this is going to stay the way it currently is on Test? Not a chance. Once live and Assassins start eating dirt left and right, the boards will light up as if a bon-fire. And as usual the Assassins will get thier way and things will change dramatically again. ( Or the Assassins will have thier hate transfer or some such thing changed. ) The nerfing of the Troub group de-aggro makes absolutely no sense. All it will accomplish is the reduction, and is some cases severe reduction of the raid's over all DPS. If the goal was to force DPSers to start using thier own deaggros more, well that's been accomplished already due to the problems of tanks holding aggro in many zones. What did it matter if the Troubs got to keep thier group de-hate the way it is?</p><p>Look, I have no real beef in this GU. The destruction of my group de-hate buff is not going to affect my DPS at all. Hell I'm a Troub, I can't even pull aggro off a Fury much less a tank.  What is does do though is destroy one of my class defining spells and will ( don't care what anyone says ) make getting through a lot of the new content harder due to lower raid DPS output.</p><p>As a Defiler, you have reason to hate high DPSers who won't use thier own de-hate. Well actually you guys have a reason to hate just about everything. Nothing worse then someone other then the MT sucking up your ward when not neccessary,  but not sure this GU is going to help that any.</p><p>PS Gimbel, if your troub isn't hitting you with JC on the Named pulls, slap them for me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />. We have found that this helps the MT Defiler/Mystic a ton for the first few seconds of the fight until the debuffs can land.</p>

[theriatis]

<p>Hi,</p><p>as everyone and their dog is talking about deaggro tools, here's what a Wizard on Live has:</p><p>- Blip. On Master 1 it nets 2k Dehate per Use, for a whooping 6k Dehate per Minute.</p><p>- Concussive. Nets 2,5k Dehate per use, for a whooping 5k Dehate per Minute.</p><p>If i use those constantly, i can dehate myself bei 11k per Minute... thats the DPS i generate in TWO SECONDS.So, thats the Tools which are given to me. Aside from the Spells i can press, i have:</p><p>- The KoS Int Tree. No Mage Specs that, because you have to give up the complete STR Tree (Spellcrit) andthe Last Ability from either the AGI or WIS Tree (Castspeed or Less Mana Usage).Means i have 16% less aggro, a Dehate Attack which does about 3,5k per Minute and a positional Deaggrowhich gives me 2 Positions down the road every ~2 Minutes.</p><p>- The Shadow AAs: Theres one which drags you one position down the road every Minute and one whichups your Spell (cant translate it, but it does a 8% dehate on test and a deaggro proc about 3k), the deaggroproc portion of it from roughly 2,5k max to 3k max.</p><p>So... aside from that i have Mithaniels Arm (deaggro proc 1 Position) and the Whispered Word (deaggro, 10 seconds50% less aggro generation proc). And a lot of deaggro gear, netting in 4k if it procs, per Minute.</p><p>Now i do, if i hold a little bit back, per Mob, 6k Damage per Second. You do the Math.</p><p>Don't want to talk about the fact that a Wizard is burst damage. If i cannot use my high damage spells, my damageis nearly halved. Talk about a 20k Frostbolt or a 40k Fission.... doubled, if you have a Mythical...</p><p>Other than that, i can do nothing. Wizard is DPS. If i don't do DPS, what is my purpose ?</p><p>If nothings changed, i don't need to raid anymore (for new gear, i raid for fun too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) because my gear is good enoughto rip aggro off of anyone (save a GOOD Paladin on live with amends on me).</p><p>Do those Full-Time-On-Test Sorcerer do have any advice for me, aside from Stick-AFK and throw a Frostbold every 30 seconds ?</p><p>Regards, theriatis.</p>

[Noob1974]

<p><cite>theriatis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hi,</p><p>as everyone and their dog is talking about deaggro tools, here's what a Wizard on Live has:</p><p>- Blip. On Master 1 it nets 2k Dehate per Use, for a whooping 6k Dehate per Minute.</p><p>- Concussive. Nets 2,5k Dehate per use, for a whooping 5k Dehate per Minute.</p><p>If i use those constantly, i can dehate myself bei 11k per Minute... thats the DPS i generate in TWO SECONDS.So, thats the Tools which are given to me. Aside from the Spells i can press, i have:</p><p>- The KoS Int Tree. No Mage Specs that, because you have to give up the complete STR Tree (Spellcrit) andthe Last Ability from either the AGI or WIS Tree (Castspeed or Less Mana Usage).Means i have 16% less aggro, a Dehate Attack which does about 3,5k per Minute and a positional Deaggrowhich gives me 2 Positions down the road every ~2 Minutes.</p><p>- The Shadow AAs: Theres one which drags you one position down the road every Minute and one whichups your Spell (cant translate it, but it does a 8% dehate on test and a deaggro proc about 3k), the deaggroproc portion of it from roughly 2,5k max to 3k max.</p><p>So... aside from that i have Mithaniels Arm (deaggro proc 1 Position) and the Whispered Word (deaggro, 10 seconds50% less aggro generation proc). And a lot of deaggro gear, netting in 4k if it procs, per Minute.</p><p>Now i do, if i hold a little bit back, per Mob, 6k Damage per Second. You do the Math.</p><p>Don't want to talk about the fact that a Wizard is burst damage. If i cannot use my high damage spells, my damageis nearly halved. Talk about a 20k Frostbolt or a 40k Fission.... doubled, if you have a Mythical...</p><p>Other than that, i can do nothing. Wizard is DPS. If i don't do DPS, what is my purpose ?</p><p>If nothings changed, i don't need to raid anymore (for new gear, i raid for fun too <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />) because my gear is good enoughto rip aggro off of anyone (save a GOOD Paladin on live with amends on me).</p><p>Do those Full-Time-On-Test Sorcerer do have any advice for me, aside from Stick-AFK and throw a Frostbold every 30 seconds ?</p><p>Regards, theriatis.</p></blockquote><p>        Well you have two option besides troubs Alin Buff which is nerfed down to 8 %. As i understand you self deaggro buff covnverage is upgraded.</p><p>1. Look for Items that have a deaggro proc on it instead of a dmg proc.</p><p>2. Change your spell rotation till you find way to have every single spell in the right order without taking to much aggro.</p><p>I think every dps class will loose 2-3k dps in the beginning till they figured out how to deal with it.</p>

[Macross_JR]

<p><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Feldon, I'm sorry, but group agro management has always been part of the game, always.  You say you use deagros if the mob gets on you, why not use them while the mob is not on you to lower your hate so it doesn't get on you? Pro-active is always better then reactive, period.  I get sick of dps classes who say they don't want to use their deagros when they don't have the mob beating on them and only use it when they have agro.  It's not good group agro management.</p><p>Are some peoples roles going to change, yes.  Is it for the better, yes.  DPS classes need to learn it's not all about the tank holding agro, it's about them not getting agro.  Sony is giving everyone the tools to do just that and once this hits live the people that will adapt to it will grow stronger and the ones that don't adapt will find themselves not getting groups due to them not being able to control their hate.</p></blockquote><p>Ok Gimbel, I know you're a raider but remember the Trak fight? You know, the one where you only have 10 mins to kill him before the platform lowers into the the lava? This fight requires high DPS. So now you are telling the DPSers to scale back on thier DPS because of aggro issues. Some fights, like Trak, are going to be almost impossible for some guilds to complete if you are telling them they have to scale back on thier DPS. Ok, granted, most high DPSers are lazy when it comes to using their own de-hate, but for a long time they have been able to get away with it. Now they can't. Even without GU51 they can't. The tougher mobs in the new content simply demands they do it or eat dirt for awhile. Those who can't seem to get that down, are now looking for new guilds or if they have some redeeming qualities, they are finding themselves sitting out of the raid more often.</p><p>Do you really think this is going to stay the way it currently is on Test? Not a chance. Once live and Assassins start eating dirt left and right, the boards will light up as if a bon-fire. And as usual the Assassins will get thier way and things will change dramatically again. ( Or the Assassins will have thier hate transfer or some such thing changed. ) The nerfing of the Troub group de-aggro makes absolutely no sense. All it will accomplish is the reduction, and is some cases severe reduction of the raid's over all DPS. If the goal was to force DPSers to start using thier own deaggros more, well that's been accomplished already due to the problems of tanks holding aggro in many zones. What did it matter if the Troubs got to keep thier group de-hate the way it is?</p><p>Look, I have no real beef in this GU. The destruction of my group de-hate buff is not going to affect my DPS at all. Hell I'm a Troub, I can't even pull aggro off a Fury much less a tank.  What is does do though is destroy one of my class defining spells and will ( don't care what anyone says ) make getting through a lot of the new content harder due to lower raid DPS output.</p><p>As a Defiler, you have reason to hate high DPSers who won't use thier own de-hate. Well actually you guys have a reason to hate just about everything. Nothing worse then someone other then the MT sucking up your ward when not neccessary,  but not sure this GU is going to help that any.</p><p>PS Gimbel, if your troub isn't hitting you with JC on the Named pulls, slap them for me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />. We have found that this helps the MT Defiler/Mystic a ton for the first few seconds of the fight until the debuffs can land.</p></blockquote><p>Acutally Veeman, I'm no longer with Element, but we were almost to Trak when I left, we were getting ready to go take pulls on him, so I didn't know about that part of the trak fight.  As far as the troub de-agro, I totally agree, it shouldn't have been nerfed to nerfdom.  I never really paid attention to the troubs, Element had been down a troub for a bit, just running 1, other's son had twins.  I'm not too upset with my class atm, I'm having a blast with it.  Then again I need to get into a different guild so I can continue raiding atm.  Have my app somewhere, just waiting to see.</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>Gaktar@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hence, I would prefer longer reuse times on taunts in return for them generating more hate per use. This goes for Impede and Guard in particular.</p></blockquote><p>Wanna know what makes a good tank?  Paying attention to the extra effects on spells such as Impede and knowing when to use them.  Horrible suggestion Khayne.</p></blockquote><p>I'd gladly have increased reuse timer on an interrupt in return for 1) higher hate generation, and 2) being able to land and maintain my debuffs.</p><p>I invite you to return to these boards and reiterate your disagreement with me after you have tested out these changes in a raid setting or while grouped with mages or scouts dealing 10K+ vs named in TSO instances.  </p><p>Last week, a frigging illusionist, of all classes, dealt 14K vs the first named in Deep Forge.  I was in offensive, dual-wielding, wearing the Jewel of Animosity, had assassin hate transfer, and had dirge buffs.  On test, my hate generation is way, way, way less than on live, and I don't have 36% hate reduction to throw on crazy damage dealers like that illusionist.</p>

[Xethren]

<p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>** Sarcasam On **</p><p>OMG, we have to tank in defensive and taunt. The world is ending. Save us Save us.  Don't change things now SOE, we want to be in the same downward spiral we have been in with tanks out DPSing scouts and only controlling agro becasue we have better DPS. </p><p>**Sarcasam Off**</p><p>Tanking is finallly getting the overhall it has needed for a long time. Tanks will have to taunt instead of DPSing. All I can say is it is about time.  I would love to see these changes tommorow if they could do it, but still get to wait.  To those that think the only way they can hold agro is though DPS, get over it and learn to tank.  DPS will still be part of your arsenal, but now you have to learn to taunt. Dust off those buttons and start practicing.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly my thoughts. The sky is NOT falling people. This is a much-needed fix coming.</p><p>Last time i checked, it was the tank's job to umm... TANK, not try to be the highest on the parse. The taunt buttons that a Guard has (or any tank class) are there for a Reason, so are the rescues and 'hate position' changing abilities.</p><p>It was silly of SoE to put so much emphasis on dps = hate in the first place.</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>** Sarcasam On **</p><p>OMG, we have to tank in defensive and taunt. The world is ending. Save us Save us.  Don't change things now SOE, we want to be in the same downward spiral we have been in with tanks out DPSing scouts and only controlling agro becasue we have better DPS. </p><p>**Sarcasam Off**</p><p>Tanking is finallly getting the overhall it has needed for a long time. Tanks will have to taunt instead of DPSing. All I can say is it is about time.  I would love to see these changes tommorow if they could do it, but still get to wait.  To those that think the only way they can hold agro is though DPS, get over it and learn to tank.  DPS will still be part of your arsenal, but now you have to learn to taunt. Dust off those buttons and start practicing.</p></blockquote><p>It may come as a surprise to you, but some of us have been using everything in our arsenal all along.  All that changes for us in terms of how we play our class is the order in which we use our abilities.</p><p>That isn't the point, though.  The point is, <em>the damage dealers are going to be generating massive amounts of additional hate</em>. </p><p>In your average pickup groups with non-raiders, a tank will still be able to keep aggro just fine--I'm able to generate close to 5K hate per second without going offensive, as long as I have a dirge, which is certainly enough vs most non-raid geared damage dealers, and if I end up with someone in the group who pushes a little past that threshold, I have 13% hate reduction in the guise of Moderate that can be applied to help alleviate the issue.</p><p>Let me restate that: nobody is saying that well-geared, non-raiding tanks with 170+ AA's who know how to make the most of their class can't manage well enough in groups with non-raiding damage dealers who haven't yet gone deeply into their TSO AA's.  Guardians have the lowest single-target hate generation on the test server, and yet, we are able to get by, too.</p><p>The real problem is damage dealers who are raid-geared, mythical'ed, and are sitting at 170+ AA points.  We are talking assassins, rangers, and mages capable of pushing past 10K vs group instance bosses. </p><p>Up till now, we held aggro vs that kind of people via massive hate reducers combined with hate transfers and a lot of DPS-based hate generation.  We have lost a lot of hate from DPS (35% - 50% lower auto-attack DPS combined with whatever DPS we lose due to us having to prioritize taunts instead of CA's in our rotation), but it was compensated for by boosted taunts and taunt attacks.  Great.  Heck, those lower on the DPS totem pole even got a bit of extra hate on top.</p><p>However, the <em>hate reducers</em> and <em>hate transfers</em> are <em>not</em> being compensated for.</p><p>A mythical'ed assassin dealing 10K damage (a conservative figure) on the live servers right now lowers his own hate by 1600 per second while boosting the tank's hate by 1600 - 2400 per second, depending on the amount of hate buffs the tank is wearing. </p><p>That hate reduction is <em>gone</em>.</p><p>That hate transfer is <em>gone</em>.</p><p>That assassin just <em>gained</em> 3200 - 4000 hate per second on us. </p><p>That is <em>after</em> all those fancy new taunts were taken into consideration.  Nothing was given to us to make up for it. </p><p>Moderate went from 36% hate reduction to 13%.  Nothing was given to us in return for the nerf.</p><p>That is 2300 more hate per second that wizard gained on us. </p><p>Ah, yes.  Speaking of them, wizards lost their hate transfer, too.  I won't belabor the point any more, though.</p><p>Why aren't the changes working, you may be wondering.  Let me state is quite clearly, so everyone is on the same page here:</p><p> o Hate transfer (percentile) scales with damage dealer DPS.</p><p> o Hate reduction (percentile) scales with damage dealer DPS.</p><p> o Taunts do <em>not</em> scale with damage dealer DPS.</p><p>Clear enough for everyone?  If you don't get it at this point, I'll show you simple grade school math to prove it.</p><p><em>And the solution?</em></p><p>If this is to pan out at all levels of the game, not just in moderate DPS instace groups, then base taunt and crit taunt bonuses should be added to gear on an equal level with, say, +CA damage, +melee crit, and +DA bonuses. </p><p>Taunts should scale with gear, all the way, not just with the quality of the taunt or CA's in question.  In fact, tank weapons ought to have a taunt modifier on them that would reflect the damage rating of the weapon in question.</p><p>Implement that, and you will have solved the whole damned issue.</p>

[Oakum]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Fortunatly for you, as a guardian, you have 4 abilities that will instantly increase your position on the hate list. The correct use of these is what will seperate a good tank from a not so good tank.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, this is the way to design the game!!!</p><p>Let's give tanks 3-4 "Oh Crap!!!" Rescue buttons they can press frequently. Let's make them so critical to the GROUP NOT DYING that they become part of their casting rotation.</p><p>Did you hear they are speeding up the recast on Ranger's 2 "Oh Crap!!!" Deagro buttons so we can press them more often? I guess I will have to fire one of these EVERY TIME I go through my casting rotation as well?</p><p>Again, does this make the game more fun making it a constant struggle for agro? I can tell you when I started grouping with an undergeared SK, it was NOT FUN trying to hold back agro and killing mobs twice as slow. It was just ANNOYING. I wished he had better gear, better taunts and he apologized profusely to me.</p><p>Are SoE really out of ideas on how to make EQ2 better?</p></blockquote><p>Some people like challenge and helping other players not geared as good at they are. Some must always be in a perfect group/raid that never dies or fails.  Its would seem obvous from your post where you fit, lol. Thats okay though. It takes bad examples for people to say, "I will never act like that" lol.</p><p>I really dont think apologies are ever required although for not having "good enough" gear or skill as long as the player is doing things to learn and get gear like taking on challenging content for them that will get them the gear and more practice being a tank or whatever.</p><p>There is nothing wrong with explanations like, "My gear is not that good cause I  just solo'ed my SK to 80 and have not been grouping much until lately" or "this is by alt that I dont get to play much" though.</p><p>It always gets me that people want someone else to help others gear up or learn to play better but don't want to group with them until then. If everyone was that way, very few would ever group because someone in a group would be of lower skill/gear then someone else.</p><p>As far as the game goes, OH CRAP abilities are important for every class. FD's to avoid long run backs and save time on getting ready for the next pull, very long recast healer emergancy spells, death prevents, big long recast ca's and spells, mezzes and stuns, deaggro's, ect ect. I for one will always expect that they will have a use. Otherwise they should not be on our hotbars and not in our knowledge books.</p>

[habby2]

<p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>** Sarcasam On **</p><p>OMG, we have to tank in defensive and taunt. The world is ending. Save us Save us.  Don't change things now SOE, we want to be in the same downward spiral we have been in with tanks out DPSing scouts and only controlling agro becasue we have better DPS. </p><p>**Sarcasam Off**</p><p>Tanking is finallly getting the overhall it has needed for a long time. Tanks will have to taunt instead of DPSing. All I can say is it is about time.  I would love to see these changes tommorow if they could do it, but still get to wait.  To those that think the only way they can hold agro is though DPS, get over it and learn to tank.  DPS will still be part of your arsenal, but now you have to learn to taunt. Dust off those buttons and start practicing.</p></blockquote><p>It may come as a surprise to you, but some of us have been using everything in our arsenal all along.  All that changes for us in terms of how we play our class is the order in which we use our abilities.</p><p>That isn't the point, though.  The point is, <em>the damage dealers are going to be generating massive amounts of additional hate</em>. </p><p>In your average pickup groups with non-raiders, a tank will still be able to keep aggro just fine--I'm able to generate close to 5K hate per second without going offensive, as long as I have a dirge, which is certainly enough vs most non-raid geared damage dealers, and if I end up with someone in the group who pushes a little past that threshold, I have 13% hate reduction in the guise of Moderate that can be applied to help alleviate the issue.</p><p>Let me restate that: nobody is saying that well-geared, non-raiding tanks with 170+ AA's who know how to make the most of their class can't manage well enough in groups with non-raiding damage dealers who haven't yet gone deeply into their TSO AA's.  Guardians have the lowest single-target hate generation on the test server, and yet, we are able to get by, too.</p><p>The real problem is damage dealers who are raid-geared, mythical'ed, and are sitting at 170+ AA points.  We are talking assassins, rangers, and mages capable of pushing past 10K vs group instance bosses. </p><p>Up till now, we held aggro vs that kind of people via massive hate reducers combined with hate transfers and a lot of DPS-based hate generation.  We have lost a lot of hate from DPS (35% - 50% lower auto-attack DPS combined with whatever DPS we lose due to us having to prioritize taunts instead of CA's in our rotation), but it was compensated for by boosted taunts and taunt attacks.  Great.  Heck, those lower on the DPS totem pole even got a bit of extra hate on top.</p><p>However, the <em>hate reducers</em> and <em>hate transfers</em> are <em>not</em> being compensated for.</p><p>A mythical'ed assassin dealing 10K damage (a conservative figure) on the live servers right now lowers his own hate by 1600 per second while boosting the tank's hate by 1600 - 2400 per second, depending on the amount of hate buffs the tank is wearing. </p><p>That hate reduction is <em>gone</em>.</p><p>That hate transfer is <em>gone</em>.</p><p>That assassin just <em>gained</em> 3200 - 4000 hate per second on us. </p><p>That is <em>after</em> all those fancy new taunts were taken into consideration.  Nothing was given to us to make up for it. </p><p>Moderate went from 36% hate reduction to 13%.  Nothing was given to us in return for the nerf.</p><p>That is 2300 more hate per second that wizard gained on us. </p><p>Ah, yes.  Speaking of them, wizards lost their hate transfer, too.  I won't belabor the point any more, though.</p><p>Why aren't the changes working, you may be wondering.  Let me state is quite clearly, so everyone is on the same page here:</p><p> o Hate transfer (percentile) scales with damage dealer DPS.</p><p> o Hate reduction (percentile) scales with damage dealer DPS.</p><p> o Taunts do <em>not</em> scale with damage dealer DPS.</p><p>Clear enough for everyone?  If you don't get it at this point, I'll show you simple grade school math to prove it.</p><p><em>And the solution?</em></p><p>If this is to pan out at all levels of the game, not just in moderate DPS instace groups, then base taunt and crit taunt bonuses should be added to gear on an equal level with, say, +CA damage, +melee crit, and +DA bonuses. </p><p>Taunts should scale with gear, all the way, not just with the quality of the taunt or CA's in question.  In fact, tank weapons ought to have a taunt modifier on them that would reflect the damage rating of the weapon in question.</p><p>Implement that, and you will have solved the whole damned issue.</p></blockquote><p>Have you even looked at the taunt values on test????  All of the taunts I've seen are 3-4x what they used to be.  Taunts have been added to other CAs.  If you continue to work as you are on live with the changes, you're [Removed for Content] right you're going to have aggro problems, but if you adapt to how the changes are, there is not a problem.  There are lists of people on here who have actually tried the changes on test and adapted and said that a legendary geared tank could keep aggro from multiple mythical dps classes. </p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>Brailyn@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>@ ^^ Poster.</p><p>Troubador's song is a nice buff. Sure. However...consider this. While in a "Mage Group" A ranger or wizard or whatever can just go to town and never have to worry about taking agro. Most of these "classes" will never concussive, never dehate, never baffle, never spy, never...etc, etc etc. Why?</p><p>Because it hurts their parse. My red portion from your Quote still holds true. While I agree the Troub buff is nice, its not a tool that classes can/should use on their own. My Threat is going up a ton... HUGE... coercer, dirge still going to be with me. Having said that - the other DPS classes are going to have to use those tools.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think you have a clue how little Concussive and the like do.  You'd have to chain several hate reducers in a row to just compensate for <em>one single second's worth of hate</em> from a damage dealer going all-out.  That is to say, you would be casting more hate reducers than CA's/nukes.</p><p>If that is what you want to see happen, then what, exactly, would be the point of mages and scouts upgrading their nukes, CA's, getting AA's that increase DPS, etc?  After all, they couldn't actually use those abilities to up their DPS; they would just have to spam hate reducers even more to maintain their hate generation at the same level as before.</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Noob1974 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think every dps class will loose 2-3k dps in the beginning till they figured out how to deal with it.</p></blockquote><p>How anyone can say this with a straight face and not have a problem with the changes that are being made, I do not know.</p><p>QUIT BREAKING THE GAME!</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Oakum wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I really dont think apologies are ever required although for not having "good enough" gear or skill as long as the player is doing things to learn and get gear like taking on challenging content for them that will get them the gear and more practice being a tank or whatever.</p><p>It always gets me that people want someone else to help others gear up or learn to play better but don't want to group with them until then. If everyone was that way, very few would ever group because someone in a group would be of lower skill/gear then someone else.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry, but you've completely missed the point.</p><p>I group with this guy as often as I can to help him gear up, but VoES was a nightmare with us all 80's. I had to cut my DPS by 2/3rds just to keep from dying over and over. We've since gotten him geared up some, but he ended up rolling an Assassin and PL to 80 and now that is his raid main alt.</p><p>I am just shaking my head here that people think fighting for agro SHOULD BE a key part of EQ2 and that somehow it is fun that in addition to all the other strategies and tactics we are forced to use on more and more complex fights, agro should be made EVEN MORE DICEY than it already is.</p><p>I might get a warning for this but fine, I call anyone who thinks it is FUN to be in a group that is having constant agro issues an IDIOT.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I might get a warning for this but fine, I call anyone who thinks it is FUN to be in a group that is having constant agro issues an IDIOT.</p></blockquote><p>From my own testing, I think it's going to require some change on the part of players in terms of things like casting sequence and so on. Right now, the way things work on live is that the tank pulls the mob back to the group, turns it (or at least should), and then DPS just opens up on it. Unless it's a heavily scripted encounter, virtually every fight is turn-and-burn.</p><p>But let's go into the Wayback Machine, and think how encounters used to work. If players did then what they're doing today, they'd take aggro almost immediately. How did you fight tough mobs? The tank pulls the mob back to the group, turns and taunts it, and the other players lead in with debuffs and light DPS. The tank keeps on taunting, and once the mob is down to about 75-80%, DPS starts to open up a bit, hitting a bit harder while the tank continues to build hate. Once the mob is at 50%, then the big guns get pulled out because the tank should have enough threat built up to hold the mob through the rest of the fight.</p><p>Will this result in a net loss of overall DPS for the encounter? Most likely. Most classes will have to scale back at the beginning, focus on lower-damage attacks with debuff components, using detaunts to keep their threat positions low and saving their big hits for later in the fight. You will need to give the tank time to build up sufficient hate with the mob before you can go to town, since he won't have the front-loaded damage that he does now while in his defensive stance. It's all about the taunts, and although they've been significantly boosted, a couple of taunts at the beginning of a fight won't be enough to lock the mob to him.</p><p>I imagine there's going to be a lot of wizards, warlocks, assassins and rangers taking a dirtnap after this goes live. Ironically, the classes that will have the easiest time with this change will be fighters in their offensive stance because of the massive detaunts that they get. A berserker will be able to go full bore in offensive, and as long as he keeps his (de)taunts and attacks like Snarling Assault in his rotation, it's unlikely that he'll ever rip from the tank. For those fighters who prefer a DPS role most of the time, these changes are actually a huge win for them.</p><p>Will these changes be fun for more people? Probably not, at least not initially. There will be a learning curve involved, and people tend to inherently resist change anyway. I understand the reason why they're making the change -- the way things are now, they're kind of at a dead end. Just looking at Amends, that was a spell that they haven't upgraded since level 49 because they couldn't justify higher and higher levels of threat transfer. As they look down the road towards the next expansion and a level cap increase, there just wasn't much "room to breathe" when you had this ever-increasing spiral of damage to generate threat to hold mobs against higher and higher damage. In turn, that leads to mobs with ridiculous hitpoints (e.g.: the trash mobs in PAO).</p><p>When it started becoming a requirement for Guardians to tank in offensive stance, dual wielding (or before that, using a buckler) and wearing a choker just to be able to hold aggro ... something was obviously broken. This change pushes the "reset" button on all that, and as I've said before, it affects everyone in the game, not just tanks. Does it break the game? No. But it does change it in substantial ways. Players will either learn to adapt, or not.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I might get a warning for this but fine, I call anyone who thinks it is FUN to be in a group that is having constant agro issues an IDIOT.</p></blockquote><p>From my own testing, I think it's going to require some change on the part of players in terms of things like casting sequence and so on. Right now, the way things work on live is that the tank pulls the mob back to the group, turns it (or at least should), and then DPS just opens up on it. Unless it's a heavily scripted encounter, virtually every fight is turn-and-burn.</p><p>But let's go into the Wayback Machine, and think how encounters used to work. If players did then what they're doing today, they'd take aggro almost immediately. How did you fight tough mobs? The tank pulls the mob back to the group, turns and taunts it, and the other players lead in with debuffs and light DPS. The tank keeps on taunting, and once the mob is down to about 75-80%, DPS starts to open up a bit, hitting a bit harder while the tank continues to build hate. Once the mob is at 50%, then the big guns get pulled out because the tank should have enough threat built up to hold the mob through the rest of the fight.</p><p>Will this result in a net loss of overall DPS for the encounter? Most likely. Most classes will have to scale back at the beginning, focus on lower-damage attacks with debuff components, using detaunts to keep their threat positions low and saving their big hits for later in the fight. You will need to give the tank time to build up sufficient hate with the mob before you can go to town, since he won't have the front-loaded damage that he does now while in his defensive stance. It's all about the taunts, and although they've been significantly boosted, a couple of taunts at the beginning of a fight won't be enough to lock the mob to him.</p><p>I imagine there's going to be a lot of wizards, warlocks, assassins and rangers taking a dirtnap after this goes live. Ironically, the classes that will have the easiest time with this change will be fighters in their offensive stance because of the massive detaunts that they get. A berserker will be able to go full bore in offensive, and as long as he keeps his (de)taunts and attacks like Snarling Assault in his rotation, it's unlikely that he'll ever rip from the tank. For those fighters who prefer a DPS role most of the time, these changes are actually a huge win for them.</p><p>Will these changes be fun for more people? Probably not, at least not initially. There will be a learning curve involved, and people tend to inherently resist change anyway. I understand the reason why they're making the change -- the way things are now, they're kind of at a dead end. Just looking at Amends, that was a spell that they haven't upgraded since level 49 because they couldn't justify higher and higher levels of threat transfer. As they look down the road towards the next expansion and a level cap increase, there just wasn't much "room to breathe" when you had this ever-increasing spiral of damage to generate threat to hold mobs against higher and higher damage. In turn, that leads to mobs with ridiculous hitpoints (e.g.: the trash mobs in PAO).</p><p>When it started becoming a requirement for Guardians to tank in offensive stance, dual wielding (or before that, using a buckler) and wearing a choker just to be able to hold aggro ... something was obviously broken. This change pushes the "reset" button on all that, and as I've said before, it affects everyone in the game, not just tanks. Does it break the game? No. But it does change it in substantial ways. Players will either learn to adapt, or not.</p></blockquote><p>Clearing zones this way was painfully slow, and in some of the newer zones, it simply won't work. Maintaining minimum levels of DPS is often part of many raid encounter scripts, such that if you drop below a certain amount, you wipe. Thus, you have to go all out early on, simply because there's no other option. Many other encounters have conditions which build up, like adds, or scripted events which risk wiping the group/raid, and thus do not allow for a slow build-up of DPS, but require you to kill the mob as quickly as possible.</p>

[theriatis]

<p><cite>Noob1974 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>theriatis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hi,</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So... aside from that i have Mithaniels Arm (deaggro proc 1 Position) and the Whispered Word (deaggro, 10 seconds50% less aggro generation proc). And a lot of deaggro gear, netting in 4k if it procs, per Minute.</span></p><p>Don't want to talk about the fact that a Wizard is burst damage. If i cannot use my high damage spells, my damageis nearly halved. Talk about a 20k Frostbolt or a 40k Fission.... doubled, if you have a Mythical...</p></blockquote><p>Well you have two option besides troubs Alin Buff which is nerfed down to 8 %. As i understand you self deaggro buff covnverage is upgraded.</p><p>1. Look for Items that have a deaggro proc on it instead of a dmg proc.</p><p>2. Change your spell rotation till you find way to have every single spell in the right order without taking to much aggro.</p><p>I think every dps class will loose 2-3k dps in the beginning till they figured out how to deal with it.</p></blockquote><p>Hi,</p><p>for 1: Read my Post (the interesting part is quoted in red). I have the Claymore-Line Mithaniels Arm, Edict of theWhispered Word, besides of a lot of other deagro proc gear.</p><p>for 2: Newsflash - There is NO spell rotation which magically reduces my aggro... i throw a Frostbolt, crits for 24k, i have(maybe) aggro - it doubles (Myth) for 48k, i am dead. End of Story. Fission is even worse.</p><p>Wizard is BURST Damage. Even if i cast all my "small" damage spells for just 3-6k Damage, i'll do a lot of Damage and ifi start to use my big ones i get aggro. The only way is just, NOT to use them. Great. Tell a Damage Class not to use theirspells. Tell a damage class do throw their precious VP Raidgear or Myth out of the Window, because they do to muchDamage. Tell them to wear their T7 Deaggro Gear, because their TSO Gear does to much Damage.Dagger of the Ethernauts ? Oh, sorry, don't need that one, i have to wear my T7 Claymore Mithaniels Arm, otherwiseI draw aggro....</p><p>Yes, throw out the Wicked Wand of Malice, that Piece of Crap... and the Dragons Marrow looks good as decoration overmy Bed... yeah... gimme some T1 stuff, so i can't get aggro. (the last part may be a little bit exagerated).</p><p>Problem solved, and Sony doesn't need to design new stuff, because we can use our old one the next 50 Levels !</p><p>Regards, theriatis. (Sarcasm included).</p><p>P.S. Sony needs to tone ALL the TSO Mobs HP at least 20% down, so that we can do less damage, but have a chanceto bring the Mobs down.</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>Glacier@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>** Sarcasam On **</p><p>OMG, we have to tank in defensive and taunt. The world is ending. Save us Save us.  Don't change things now SOE, we want to be in the same downward spiral we have been in with tanks out DPSing scouts and only controlling agro becasue we have better DPS. </p><p>**Sarcasam Off**</p><p>Tanking is finallly getting the overhall it has needed for a long time. Tanks will have to taunt instead of DPSing. All I can say is it is about time.  I would love to see these changes tommorow if they could do it, but still get to wait.  To those that think the only way they can hold agro is though DPS, get over it and learn to tank.  DPS will still be part of your arsenal, but now you have to learn to taunt. Dust off those buttons and start practicing.</p></blockquote><p>It may come as a surprise to you, but some of us have been using everything in our arsenal all along.  All that changes for us in terms of how we play our class is the order in which we use our abilities.</p><p>That isn't the point, though.  The point is, <em>the damage dealers are going to be generating massive amounts of additional hate</em>. </p><p>In your average pickup groups with non-raiders, a tank will still be able to keep aggro just fine--I'm able to generate close to 5K hate per second without going offensive, as long as I have a dirge, which is certainly enough vs most non-raid geared damage dealers, and if I end up with someone in the group who pushes a little past that threshold, I have 13% hate reduction in the guise of Moderate that can be applied to help alleviate the issue.</p><p>Let me restate that: nobody is saying that well-geared, non-raiding tanks with 170+ AA's who know how to make the most of their class can't manage well enough in groups with non-raiding damage dealers who haven't yet gone deeply into their TSO AA's.  Guardians have the lowest single-target hate generation on the test server, and yet, we are able to get by, too.</p><p>The real problem is damage dealers who are raid-geared, mythical'ed, and are sitting at 170+ AA points.  We are talking assassins, rangers, and mages capable of pushing past 10K vs group instance bosses. </p><p>Up till now, we held aggro vs that kind of people via massive hate reducers combined with hate transfers and a lot of DPS-based hate generation.  We have lost a lot of hate from DPS (35% - 50% lower auto-attack DPS combined with whatever DPS we lose due to us having to prioritize taunts instead of CA's in our rotation), but it was compensated for by boosted taunts and taunt attacks.  Great.  Heck, those lower on the DPS totem pole even got a bit of extra hate on top.</p><p>However, the <em>hate reducers</em> and <em>hate transfers</em> are <em>not</em> being compensated for.</p><p>A mythical'ed assassin dealing 10K damage (a conservative figure) on the live servers right now lowers his own hate by 1600 per second while boosting the tank's hate by 1600 - 2400 per second, depending on the amount of hate buffs the tank is wearing. </p><p>That hate reduction is <em>gone</em>.</p><p>That hate transfer is <em>gone</em>.</p><p>That assassin just <em>gained</em> 3200 - 4000 hate per second on us. </p><p>That is <em>after</em> all those fancy new taunts were taken into consideration.  Nothing was given to us to make up for it. </p><p>Moderate went from 36% hate reduction to 13%.  Nothing was given to us in return for the nerf.</p><p>That is 2300 more hate per second that wizard gained on us. </p><p>Ah, yes.  Speaking of them, wizards lost their hate transfer, too.  I won't belabor the point any more, though.</p><p>Why aren't the changes working, you may be wondering.  Let me state is quite clearly, so everyone is on the same page here:</p><p> o Hate transfer (percentile) scales with damage dealer DPS.</p><p> o Hate reduction (percentile) scales with damage dealer DPS.</p><p> o Taunts do <em>not</em> scale with damage dealer DPS.</p><p>Clear enough for everyone?  If you don't get it at this point, I'll show you simple grade school math to prove it.</p><p><em>And the solution?</em></p><p>If this is to pan out at all levels of the game, not just in moderate DPS instace groups, then base taunt and crit taunt bonuses should be added to gear on an equal level with, say, +CA damage, +melee crit, and +DA bonuses. </p><p>Taunts should scale with gear, all the way, not just with the quality of the taunt or CA's in question.  In fact, tank weapons ought to have a taunt modifier on them that would reflect the damage rating of the weapon in question.</p><p>Implement that, and you will have solved the whole damned issue.</p></blockquote><p>Have you even looked at the taunt values on test????  All of the taunts I've seen are 3-4x what they used to be.  Taunts have been added to other CAs.</p></blockquote><p>Have you even read my initial post?  I have tested my hate generation on the test server.  I have parsed my hate generation with ACT.  The numbers are right there.</p><p>Have you even read the post you quoted?  Did you even try to comprehend the simple, irrefutable logic therein? </p><p>I will reiterate for you, trying to rephrase to facilitate comprehension:</p><p>Tanks miss more.  Tanks lose 30% damage per successful auto-attack.  Tanks aren't able to use CA's in an ideal sequence because taunts have to be prioritized.  Consequence: DPS drops, so hate generated by DPS drops, too.</p><p>Are you with me so far?  Good.</p><p>Tanks get improved taunts.  Taunts compensate for lost hate from DPS and even add some additional hate if you weren't dealing a lot of damage to begin with, so you end up looking better than on the live servers.</p><p>Still hanging in there?  Excellent.</p><p>Tanks lose hate transfer from assassins and swashbucklers.  If you aren't used to grouping with those two classes, or if the hate transferrers you normally have with you are generating, say, 3K DPS, you won't notice the loss of hate transfer--your additional taunt hate will compensate.</p><p>However, if you are used to seeing 10K+ from those scouts, you most assuredly will feel the lack of that hate transfer, because 1) the amount of hate transferred increases proportionally to the DPS of the scout, 2) you need more hate to hold aggro vs those scouts, and 3) the new taunts give you the same amount of additional hate no matter whether the damage dealers in your group are good, bad, or average.</p><p>And finally, damage dealers lose hate reduction.  Nowhere are they being compensated for this.  The taunts are already struggling to compensate for lack of hate transfer, so there isn't any help to be found there.</p><p>Result: tanks can't hold aggro vs high-end damage dealers, so damage dealers have to cut back on DPS, which renders their gear and spell upgrades meaningless beyond a certain point: namely, when they generate more hate than the tank.</p><p>This, in turn, leads to some tanks being preferred over others, since they have superior hate generation--the less you have to cut back as a damage dealer, the faster the zone is done with, the better your chances of beating named mobs in zones like Atrebe's Lab, and of course, the more fun you have.</p><p>Did you get it this time?</p>

[habby2]

<p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Glacier@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Krunck@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>** Sarcasam On **</p><p>OMG, we have to tank in defensive and taunt. The world is ending. Save us Save us.  Don't change things now SOE, we want to be in the same downward spiral we have been in with tanks out DPSing scouts and only controlling agro becasue we have better DPS. </p><p>**Sarcasam Off**</p><p>Tanking is finallly getting the overhall it has needed for a long time. Tanks will have to taunt instead of DPSing. All I can say is it is about time.  I would love to see these changes tommorow if they could do it, but still get to wait.  To those that think the only way they can hold agro is though DPS, get over it and learn to tank.  DPS will still be part of your arsenal, but now you have to learn to taunt. Dust off those buttons and start practicing.</p></blockquote><p>It may come as a surprise to you, but some of us have been using everything in our arsenal all along.  All that changes for us in terms of how we play our class is the order in which we use our abilities.</p><p>That isn't the point, though.  The point is, <em>the damage dealers are going to be generating massive amounts of additional hate</em>. </p><p>In your average pickup groups with non-raiders, a tank will still be able to keep aggro just fine--I'm able to generate close to 5K hate per second without going offensive, as long as I have a dirge, which is certainly enough vs most non-raid geared damage dealers, and if I end up with someone in the group who pushes a little past that threshold, I have 13% hate reduction in the guise of Moderate that can be applied to help alleviate the issue.</p><p>Let me restate that: nobody is saying that well-geared, non-raiding tanks with 170+ AA's who know how to make the most of their class can't manage well enough in groups with non-raiding damage dealers who haven't yet gone deeply into their TSO AA's.  Guardians have the lowest single-target hate generation on the test server, and yet, we are able to get by, too.</p><p>The real problem is damage dealers who are raid-geared, mythical'ed, and are sitting at 170+ AA points.  We are talking assassins, rangers, and mages capable of pushing past 10K vs group instance bosses. </p><p>Up till now, we held aggro vs that kind of people via massive hate reducers combined with hate transfers and a lot of DPS-based hate generation.  We have lost a lot of hate from DPS (35% - 50% lower auto-attack DPS combined with whatever DPS we lose due to us having to prioritize taunts instead of CA's in our rotation), but it was compensated for by boosted taunts and taunt attacks.  Great.  Heck, those lower on the DPS totem pole even got a bit of extra hate on top.</p><p>However, the <em>hate reducers</em> and <em>hate transfers</em> are <em>not</em> being compensated for.</p><p>A mythical'ed assassin dealing 10K damage (a conservative figure) on the live servers right now lowers his own hate by 1600 per second while boosting the tank's hate by 1600 - 2400 per second, depending on the amount of hate buffs the tank is wearing. </p><p>That hate reduction is <em>gone</em>.</p><p>That hate transfer is <em>gone</em>.</p><p>That assassin just <em>gained</em> 3200 - 4000 hate per second on us. </p><p>That is <em>after</em> all those fancy new taunts were taken into consideration.  Nothing was given to us to make up for it. </p><p>Moderate went from 36% hate reduction to 13%.  Nothing was given to us in return for the nerf.</p><p>That is 2300 more hate per second that wizard gained on us. </p><p>Ah, yes.  Speaking of them, wizards lost their hate transfer, too.  I won't belabor the point any more, though.</p><p>Why aren't the changes working, you may be wondering.  Let me state is quite clearly, so everyone is on the same page here:</p><p> o Hate transfer (percentile) scales with damage dealer DPS.</p><p> o Hate reduction (percentile) scales with damage dealer DPS.</p><p> o Taunts do <em>not</em> scale with damage dealer DPS.</p><p>Clear enough for everyone?  If you don't get it at this point, I'll show you simple grade school math to prove it.</p><p><em>And the solution?</em></p><p>If this is to pan out at all levels of the game, not just in moderate DPS instace groups, then base taunt and crit taunt bonuses should be added to gear on an equal level with, say, +CA damage, +melee crit, and +DA bonuses. </p><p>Taunts should scale with gear, all the way, not just with the quality of the taunt or CA's in question.  In fact, tank weapons ought to have a taunt modifier on them that would reflect the damage rating of the weapon in question.</p><p>Implement that, and you will have solved the whole damned issue.</p></blockquote><p>Have you even looked at the taunt values on test????  All of the taunts I've seen are 3-4x what they used to be.  Taunts have been added to other CAs.</p></blockquote><p>Have you even read my initial post?  I have tested my hate generation on the test server.  I have parsed my hate generation with ACT.  The numbers are right there.</p><p>Have you even read the post you quoted?  Did you even try to comprehend the simple, irrefutable logic therein? </p><p>I will reiterate for you, trying to rephrase to facilitate comprehension:</p><p>Tanks miss more.  Tanks lose 30% damage per successful auto-attack.  Tanks aren't able to use CA's in an ideal sequence because taunts have to be prioritized.  Consequence: DPS drops, so hate generated by DPS drops, too.</p><p>Are you with me so far?  Good.</p><p>Tanks get improved taunts.  Taunts compensate for lost hate from DPS and even add some additional hate if you weren't dealing a lot of damage to begin with, so you end up looking better than on the live servers.</p><p>Still hanging in there?  Excellent.</p><p>Tanks lose hate transfer from assassins and swashbucklers.  If you aren't used to grouping with those two classes, or if the hate transferrers you normally have with you are generating, say, 3K DPS, you won't notice the loss of hate transfer--your additional taunt hate will compensate.</p><p>However, if you are used to seeing 10K+ from those scouts, you most assuredly will feel the lack of that hate transfer, because 1) the amount of hate transferred increases proportionally to the DPS of the scout, 2) you need more hate to hold aggro vs those scouts, and 3) the new taunts give you the same amount of additional hate no matter whether the damage dealers in your group are good, bad, or average.</p><p>And finally, damage dealers lose hate reduction.  Nowhere are they being compensated for this.  The taunts are already struggling to compensate for lack of hate transfer, so there isn't any help to be found there.</p><p>Result: tanks can't hold aggro vs high-end damage dealers, so damage dealers have to cut back on DPS, which renders their gear and spell upgrades meaningless beyond a certain point: namely, when they generate more hate than the tank.</p><p>This, in turn, leads to some tanks being preferred over others, since they have superior hate generation--the less you have to cut back as a damage dealer, the faster the zone is done with, the better your chances of beating named mobs in zones like Atrebe's Lab, and of course, the more fun you have.</p><p>Did you get it this time?</p></blockquote><p>Obviously you didn't "get it".  Legendary geared fighters on test keeping aggro away from mythicaled dps'ers going full out.  If you'd actually test out what you're saying instead of coming up with whay you think the numbers are (last I looked you didn't have a developer tag by your name), maybe your opinion would actually carry some weight.  Without knowing what all the equations are for threat, you have absolutely no clue.</p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Did you get it this time?</p></blockquote><p>I think he did, but you're leaving one factor out of your equation. One factor that came in with TSO. That's this: pre-TSO 1 point of damage equalled 1 point of hate. With TSO, 1 point of damage is equal to about 1/2 point of hate. That means that taunts are more effective at generating aggro with a mob than the same amount of damage would be. If a DPSer is doing 1000 dps, it takes only 5-600 hps in taunts etc. to stay even with him in terms of aggro. And that mechanics change makes a big difference.</p><p>And yes, I've tested this.</p>

[Faelgalad]

<p><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think he did, but you're leaving one factor out of your equation. One factor that came in with TSO. That's this: pre-TSO 1 point of damage equalled 1 point of hate. With TSO, 1 point of damage is equal to about 1/2 point of hate. That means that taunts are more effective at generating aggro with a mob than the same amount of damage would be. If a DPSer is doing 1000 dps, it takes only 5-600 hps in taunts etc. to stay even with him in terms of aggro. And that mechanics change makes a big difference.</p><p>And yes, I've tested this.</p></blockquote><p>Please Test-build up you used (mobs and your group) and the Numbers, so we can Test to control your conclusion. </p><p>And there is no 1 DPS -> 1/2 HPS in any official Posting, or?</p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Please Test-build up you used (mobs and your group) and the Numbers, so we can Test to control your conclusion. </p><p>And there is no 1 DPS -> 1/2 HPS in any official Posting, or?</p></blockquote><p>You can find my gear etc. on EQ2Players. Basically an RoK instance/quest legendary geared 'zerker going against a raid-geared (fabled gear and M1s) warlock trying to pull aggro off me. With points in the buckler build shifted to give me 8 points in STR 4th (improved hate gain and taunts), I could hold aggro against the 'lock using only taunts and War Pledge. Not easily, in fact it was a bear of a fight, but I could hold the mob.</p><p>As far as the 1->1/2, there wasn't ever an exact number given. It was an official dev (red name) post in the beta forums where the aggro mechanics were discussed, though. They were very explicit: one of the reasons for adjusting the aggro balance of damage vs. hate was to make it so tanks could rely more on taunts and hate generation to hold mobs and depend less on sheer DPS. That's consistent with what Aeralik's said about GU51, which is described as the second phase of the adjustment. I don't think he'd be talking about a second phase if there hadn't been a first.</p>

[denmom]

<p><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Please Test-build up you used (mobs and your group) and the Numbers, so we can Test to control your conclusion. </p><p>And there is no 1 DPS -> 1/2 HPS in any official Posting, or?</p></blockquote><p>You can find my gear etc. on EQ2Players. Basically an RoK instance/quest legendary geared 'zerker going against a raid-geared (fabled gear and M1s) warlock trying to pull aggro off me. With points in the buckler build shifted to give me 8 points in STR 4th (improved hate gain and taunts), I could hold aggro against the 'lock using only taunts and War Pledge. Not easily, in fact it was a bear of a fight, but I could hold the mob.</p><p>As far as the 1->1/2, there wasn't ever an exact number given. It was an official dev (red name) post in the beta forums where the aggro mechanics were discussed, though. They were very explicit: one of the reasons for adjusting the aggro balance of damage vs. hate was to make it so tanks could rely more on taunts and hate generation to hold mobs and depend less on sheer DPS. That's consistent with what Aeralik's said about GU51, which is described as the second phase of the adjustment. I don't think he'd be talking about a second phase if there hadn't been a first.</p></blockquote><p>I was there, was the single healer, a Warden.  We (Jrral as MT, myself as healer, my husband's Monk, our guildee Warlock, and friend's Dirge) were beta testing Scion of Ice in TSO beta.  I was testing out the new Warden AA's on the Shadow tree, had all 200.  Jrral was testing out how the taunts and such were to be with TSO.</p><p>Jrral tested holding with dps first, as he would do on Live.  Had aggro ripped right off him with the first cast of the 'Lock.  When I heal, I'm usually on the tank unless I have to hop to direct heal someone else in group.  I started on Jrral, but then had to immediately drop to the 'Lock for the whole fight.  Even with the 'Lock using all of his dethreats, just couldn't get the mob off, and even with the Monk and Dirge also pouring on damage as well as Jrral.  Next fight, using taunts, Jrral did hold.  Not once did the 'Lock get aggro.</p><p>Yah, I remember that thread as well.  I don't think those forums are available at all now.</p>

[theriatis]

<p><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Jrral tested holding with dps first, as he would do on Live.  Had aggro ripped right off him with the first cast of the 'Lock.  When I heal, I'm usually on the tank unless I have to hop to direct heal someone else in group.  I started on Jrral, but then had to immediately drop to the 'Lock for the whole fight.  Even with the 'Lock using all of his dethreats, just couldn't get the mob off, and even with the Monk and Dirge also pouring on damage as well as Jrral.  Next fight, using taunts, Jrral did hold.  Not once did the 'Lock get aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Do you have any Numbers ? How much Damage did the Warlock do ? How high was the Tanks Taunt-Amount ?</p><p>Regards, theriatis.</p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>theriatis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Do you have any Numbers ? How much Damage did the Warlock do ? How high was the Tanks Taunt-Amount ?</p><p>Regards, theriatis.</p></blockquote><p>No taunt numbers. The warlock was putting out about 3-4K DPS (probably low in raid terms, but this was a single group without a bard so nowhere near the buffs you'd see in a raid either). That's one of the reasons we did testing in beta vs. live at the time, I was comparing how well things worked in identical setups. On live the same berserker, in the same group, with the same gear for everyone, could hold aggro against that warlock fighting similar-level mobs by conventional DPS. The shift in behavior between live and TSO beta, given that everything else about the characters remained the same between the two, is why I concluded that the hate-vs.-damage mechanics change was real. If it wasn't, I shouldn't have seen a change in behavior, let alone such a huge change, no?</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Khayne@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This, in turn, leads to some tanks being preferred over others, since they have superior hate generation</p></blockquote><p>I guess we'll just see what happens. It would be pretty sad if all 6 fighter classes were desireable for grouping/raiding for exactly 2 months.</p>

[denmom]

<p><cite>theriatis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Jrral tested holding with dps first, as he would do on Live.  Had aggro ripped right off him with the first cast of the 'Lock.  When I heal, I'm usually on the tank unless I have to hop to direct heal someone else in group.  I started on Jrral, but then had to immediately drop to the 'Lock for the whole fight.  Even with the 'Lock using all of his dethreats, just couldn't get the mob off, and even with the Monk and Dirge also pouring on damage as well as Jrral.  Next fight, using taunts, Jrral did hold.  Not once did the 'Lock get aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Do you have any Numbers ? How much Damage did the Warlock do ? How high was the Tanks Taunt-Amount ?</p><p>Regards, theriatis.</p></blockquote><p>Yah, I know, screenshots or it didn't happen.  /sigh</p><p>I was watching health bars.  The only time I'm not on the bars when I'm healer is when I see someone else taking damage when they shouldn't.  If they aren't healed by a group heal, then I know they're out of range of me, so I look to see where they are.</p><p>I know the 'Lock was using his dethreats, when we're in Vent we say what we're doing so that the others know.  He was hitting every one he had.  Usually it takes one or two to get a mob off him, but this it stuck and wouldn't let go.</p><p>Sorry I can't give you hard numbers, wish I could.  I dunno if Jrral has the log from beta still.</p>

[denmom]

<p><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>theriatis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Do you have any Numbers ? How much Damage did the Warlock do ? How high was the Tanks Taunt-Amount ?</p><p>Regards, theriatis.</p></blockquote><p>No taunt numbers. The warlock was putting out about 3-4K DPS (probably low in raid terms, but this was a single group without a bard so nowhere near the buffs you'd see in a raid either). That's one of the reasons we did testing in beta vs. live at the time, I was comparing how well things worked in identical setups. On live the same berserker, in the same group, with the same gear for everyone, could hold aggro against that warlock fighting similar-level mobs by conventional DPS. The shift in behavior between live and TSO beta, given that everything else about the characters remained the same between the two, is why I concluded that the hate-vs.-damage mechanics change was real. If it wasn't, I shouldn't have seen a change in behavior, let alone such a huge change, no?</p></blockquote><p>We had a Dirge with us, Melodie.</p><p>It was five of us, and one of our usual L80 groupings on Live when we run an instance.  Zerker (you), Monk (my husband), Warlock (guildee), Warden (me), Dirge (friend).</p><p>Our 6th is usually an Assassin friend, if he's online at the time.  Or we'll get a Bruiser from the same guild as the Dirge.</p><p>Clarification of the group make up for others.</p>