How many Tanks/Raidtanks you see announcing retirement? [Archive]

Faelgalad

01-14-2009, 07:47 AM

Just for curiosity,how many Tanks do you know have been gone, announce to go with GU51?I would say, that's the deepest form of Feedback, people retiring from Guilds, Raids...I don't want the discussion "whining, adapt, reroll". That's not the intent.People retiring open holes beyond their classes.My own Raidcom on Innovation tries to persuade one of our Tanks (Paladin) not to quit. I'am his raidleader, not his judge, he feels betrayed by this update and to all his work to become a fine Tank.And if he quit, Sir Aeralik can do the search for a new one please and a Wizard, as his wife would be also an retirment for us. We have lost 5x Players to pregnancy last year (fertile raid *g*), a couple to raidguilds, one emigration to Israel, worsening Buisness/Jobs and starting of university/school. I can life with all of that. Loosing people to an Game Update... is inacceptable for me.

steelbadger

01-14-2009, 08:38 AM

I've played this game for quite some time, I have had a fair few characters that are, supposedly, "worthless". I have seen a fair few nerfs to the classes I have played. I have seen good times and bad times. I have rarely got worried about the effects of changes on the live servers.I have never been worried by changes on test. I am a massive number cruncher, I spend hours making spreadsheets for this, that and the next thing and I can tell you right now that, even after looking at the changes, I can do no more than hazard a guess at the effects. And my guess is not one of doom and gloom. My guess is that there will be a change, a massive change, in how tanks tank and dps dps, and that trying to analyse the effects of the change using current tactics and terminology is pretty pointless. I had this discussion:Me: Have you seen the new tank changes on Test atm?Him: No, I've heard some stuff, like they're completely screwing our dps in defensive? What's that about, DPS is how I hold aggro!Me: Well, yeah, they're gimping defensive stance dps but they massively increasing taunts... and offensive stance now becomes a massive detaunt stance, with higher dps than currently.Him: But I have to tank in offensive stance to hold aggro! How am I going to hold aggro if I am detaunting in offensive stance?This, I think, shows the main problems...1) Never, ever, believe what you read on the forums... In fact never believe anyone. Ever. Always always always wait and judge it for yourself. From a quick read of these forums I can deduce that Furies, Inquisitors, and all mages are completely worthless and will never be invited to any raids or groups. I can also deduce that Shadowknights are the only tank capable of tanking heroic instances and that Guards are only useful in raids. This is all alarmist tripe. There are SMALL difference in classes but humans have an uncanny ability to blow things completely out of proportion.2) Attempting to judge the changes using benchmarks that become obsolete when the change occurs. Taunts now are largely worthless (maybe 1.5k hate per second as a base for Guards) which causes tanks to assume they can completely disregard them as a possible replacement for their lost dps.I play a guard, I tank. I've been on test, checked AA setups looked at skills and tested out hate per second. I have seen my dps in offensive stance go up considerably and my dps in defensive stance go down only slightly. I have seen that I will probably double my solo hate per second. I have reached the conclusion that hate in group situations for myself will be a lot easier without a dirge/coercer, but that aggro in raids may well take a hit. Fine.Not a problem.The sky is not falling.Tell the Pally to grow up and wait to see the effects rather that throwing his dummy out of the pram based on rumours, hearsay and incomplete reasoning.

Tandy

01-14-2009, 08:49 AM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've played this game for quite some time, I have had a fair few characters that are, supposedly, "worthless". I have seen a fair few nerfs to the classes I have played. I have seen good times and bad times. I have rarely got worried about the effects of changes on the live servers.I have never been worried by changes on test. I am a massive number cruncher, I spend hours making spreadsheets for this, that and the next thing and I can tell you right now that, even after looking at the changes, I can do no more than hazard a guess at the effects. And my guess is not one of doom and gloom. My guess is that there will be a change, a massive change, in how tanks tank and dps dps, and that trying to analyse the effects of the change using current tactics and terminology is pretty pointless. I had this discussion:Me: Have you seen the new tank changes on Test atm?Him: No, I've heard some stuff, like they're completely screwing our dps in defensive? What's that about, DPS is how I hold aggro!Me: Well, yeah, they're gimping defensive stance dps but they massively increasing taunts... and offensive stance now becomes a massive detaunt stance, with higher dps than currently.Him: But I have to tank in offensive stance to hold aggro! How am I going to hold aggro if I am detaunting in offensive stance?This, I think, shows the main problems...1) Never, ever, believe what you read on the forums... In fact never believe anyone. Ever. Always always always wait and judge it for yourself. From a quick read of these forums I can deduce that Furies, Inquisitors, and all mages are completely worthless and will never be invited to any raids or groups. I can also deduce that Shadowknights are the only tank capable of tanking heroic instances and that Guards are only useful in raids. This is all alarmist tripe. There are SMALL difference in classes but humans have an uncanny ability to blow things completely out of proportion.2) Attempting to judge the changes using benchmarks that become obsolete when the change occurs. Taunts now are largely worthless (maybe 1.5k hate per second as a base for Guards) which causes tanks to assume they can completely disregard them as a possible replacement for their lost dps.I play a guard, I tank. I've been on test, checked AA setups looked at skills and tested out hate per second. I have seen my dps in offensive stance go up considerably and my dps in defensive stance go down only slightly. I have seen that I will probably double my solo hate per second. I have reached the conclusion that hate in group situations for myself will be a lot easier without a dirge/coercer, but that aggro in raids may well take a hit. Fine.Not a problem.The sky is not falling.Tell the Pally to grow up and wait to see the effects rather that throwing his dummy out of the pram based on rumours, hearsay and incomplete reasoning.</blockquote>Wonderful advice. People always do tend to have the 'Sky is Falling!' reactive to changes. At the end of the day its your own experience that counts...providing you can stay impartial enough to give things a try to get that experience and not /rage quit.

Fantasy

01-14-2009, 08:51 AM

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>how many Tanks do you know have been gone, announce to go with GU51?</blockquote>They're bringing tanking to the point it should have been at since launch, i don't understand why people fail to see that. Yes, you can argue about the fact bringing it in now, 4years+ since launch, is such a good idea, but that doesn't change the fact they are actually "fixing" tanking.One of our tanks was furious after reading the test update notes, also saying he would leave the game. And our regular raid MT said he can no longer be arsed to log in after reading the same posts.The people who are now crying the loudest are the ones who didn't test the changes for themselves yet. That first tank i was referring to, changed his opinion completely after logging into Test.Yes, being forced into Defensive will be boring for duo's/small groups, and it will be boring for healers on all but the hardest content.The only thing i absolutely don't like about it, is the penalty to s/p/c that is still there...

Mentalep

01-14-2009, 08:55 AM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) Never, ever, believe what you read on the forums... In fact never believe anyone. Ever. Always always always wait and judge it for yourself. From a quick read of these forums I can deduce that Furies, Inquisitors, and all mages are completely worthless and will never be invited to any raids or groups. I can also deduce that Shadowknights are the only tank capable of tanking heroic instances and that Guards are only useful in raids. This is all alarmist tripe. There are SMALL difference in classes but humans have an uncanny ability to blow things completely out of proportion.</blockquote>Hear hear. The quickest way to ruin your enjoyment of any MMO is to pay too much attention to the forums.Has your paladin been on test to try out the changes? Has he grouped with the changes? Raided with them? This is a significant change to aggro management across the board, not just for paladins and not even just for fighters, and it's going to take time to figure out exactly how it's going to affect the game. Anyone who is announcing the end of their subscription based on what's been on the test server for a few days is dramatically overreacting.

Faelgalad

01-14-2009, 09:06 AM

His Paladin is on test, my Paladin is on Test, our Guard is on Test. We have crushed the Kunzar Wall a lot and in the next days a swarm of our Raiders will arrive on Test for testing Ancient One Trash.Allways funy that people think that people retire without good reason and decide such things in rage.And little steelbadger, people in my raid are on average 35 +/- so we don't need to grow up.

Windowlicker

01-14-2009, 09:06 AM

I actually shelved my Guard until the changes are patched to live. I'm looking forward to them greatly.

Noaani

01-14-2009, 11:11 AM

I have not seen one.I have seen many happy guardians, some brawlers that are uncertian, and some upset paladins.I have also seen some happy brawlers because their new toolset is benefitial to them, and some paladins looking forward to losing their /easymode reputation.

Jrral

01-14-2009, 12:43 PM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Him: No, I've heard some stuff, like they're completely screwing our dps in defensive? What's that about, DPS is how I hold aggro!Me: Well, yeah, they're gimping defensive stance dps but they massively increasing taunts... and offensive stance now becomes a massive detaunt stance, with higher dps than currently.Him: But I have to tank in offensive stance to hold aggro! How am I going to hold aggro if I am detaunting in offensive stance?</blockquote>That's pretty much what I've concluded. I remember when TSO was in beta, and I was on there specifically to test out the hate-vs.-DPS changes. Back then I concluded that the days of holding aggro by sheer damage output were over, so it was time to adjust my AA build and gear to match what was needed now. If the mechanics no longer favor a certain way of doing things, why cling to it? The only constant in the universe is change, after all.I do see a problem with off-tanking, you can't contribute the DPS you need to in defensive stance but you can't effectively grab errant mobs or adds in offensive stance because of all the dethreat, but I'm treating that and issues duoing as "There's still a few bugs in the implementation." rather than "OMG the sky is falling!".

Bremer

01-14-2009, 12:49 PM

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>My own Raidcom on Innovation tries to persuade one of our Tanks (Paladin) not to quit. I'am his raidleader, not his judge, he feels betrayed by this update and to all his work to become a fine Tank.</blockquote>He feels betrayed because he now get the tools to hold aggro on his own? More likely because he liked tanking afk and now has to work for his hate.

Boli32

01-14-2009, 12:55 PM

As for myself I am not quiting but I know of a few who are doing; and my role in raids I could find will be deminished to standing outside playing "I Spy" if the passive hate question is not fixed... for all tanks - paladins worst of all; tbh I'm not surprised if there is an exodus of tanks from the game; playing a tank is unforgiving at times and you're just making it more frustrating "ping pong" agro. It is not a pleasant idea to get use to that you have worked so long and spent an inordinate amount of time and plat in a character only to log in the next day to find it classed as "unviable in your chosen role or even inthe raid at all".EDIT: cleaned it up <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

katalmach

01-14-2009, 01:01 PM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Him: No, I've heard some stuff, like they're completely screwing our dps in defensive? What's that about, DPS is how I hold aggro!Me: Well, yeah, they're gimping defensive stance dps but they massively increasing taunts... and offensive stance now becomes a massive detaunt stance, with higher dps than currently.Him: But I have to tank in offensive stance to hold aggro! How am I going to hold aggro if I am detaunting in offensive stance?</blockquote>That's pretty much what I've concluded. I remember when TSO was in beta, and I was on there specifically to test out the hate-vs.-DPS changes. Back then I concluded that the days of holding aggro by sheer damage output were over, so it was time to adjust my AA build and gear to match what was needed now. If the mechanics no longer favor a certain way of doing things, why cling to it? The only constant in the universe is change, after all.I do see a problem with off-tanking, you can't contribute the DPS you need to in defensive stance but you can't effectively grab errant mobs or adds in offensive stance because of all the dethreat, but I'm treating that and issues duoing as "There's still a few bugs in the implementation." rather than "OMG the sky is falling!".</blockquote>I see the issues with off-tanking and duoing as game-breaking. That has nothing to do with any skies falling or me not having been on test - it's simply how I feel. If raids were broken completely, that would mean very little to me, as I don't raid much these days - but I wouldn't go on the boards saying that "oh it's just a matter of a few bugs in the implementation" and I wouldn't belittle the concerned raiders by chalking their worries up to a "OMG the sky is falling"-attitude.I like this game very much, and that includes solo ing, duoing, grouping and raiding. I don't want to see any one playstyle pushed aside in favour of a nother, and I don't want to see issues that threat en to ruin any one style be brushed aside as "oh it's no big deal". That said, the tank that I play with is cautious ly optimistic about these upcoming changes. He's n ot looking forward to them, but he's not dreading them either. I'm speaking entirely from my own poi nt of view as someone who mainly plays healers - and I think that the buff consolidation and the e xtreme penalties on the offensive stance are awful mistakes that will make the game terribly boring. The rest, I can live with, as I have lived with so many other changes.

theriatis

01-14-2009, 01:02 PM

Hi,just two questions (i got no Paladin on Test):- Did the Paladins get any tools for Passive Hate Generation yet ? They are helpless when stunned or stiffled (and the Devs know how much Nameds and Trash is out there which stuns and stiffles every second), if Amends is not there.- Did the Paladins get faster and bigger heals, cures and wards to compensate for their survivability against other tanks ?Regards, theriatis.

Prrasha

01-14-2009, 01:02 PM

There's one announcement in the paladin forums on eq2flames, from a quite high-profile poster.Our guild isn't a raiding guild, so we don't have any people quitting our raids, obviously. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm an altoholic with a paladin main, tho, and if some things don't improve conceptually (see my rants in other threads here)... I'll probably be hoping the guild's new SKs rock pretty hard, since I'll be relegated to playing a different alt.

Boli32

01-14-2009, 01:07 PM

liveja

01-14-2009, 01:26 PM

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>how many Tanks do you know have been gone, announce to go with GU51?</blockquote>So far, not one.

Norrsken

01-14-2009, 01:56 PM

Not a single one.

Brat

01-14-2009, 02:11 PM

Wytie

01-14-2009, 02:11 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I actually shelved my Guard until the changes are patched to live. I'm looking forward to them greatly.</blockquote>QFEI have an alt tank and I CANT WAITWhy, because my alt tank will be able to generate his OWN hate now.I dont have to have a bard and enchanter with a swash/assassin to be able to hold hate on mythical toons pulling agro 75% of the fight. I wont have to rely on someone doing MY job of holding agro.He will be able to do it on his own.Most people are upset because they will lose dps when tanking. Thats all. OMG I do less dps when I tank now OhNOEs I Quit.......I welcome this change, but I do worry how this will affect raid agro, I guess no more easy mode dps spam unload.

Kordran

01-14-2009, 02:25 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>My own Raidcom on Innovation tries to persuade one of our Tanks (Paladin) not to quit. I'am his raidleader, not his judge, he feels betrayed by this update and to all his work to become a fine Tank.</blockquote>He feels betrayed because he now get the tools to hold aggro on his own? More likely because he liked tanking afk and now has to work for his hate.</blockquote>The issue isn't "afk tanking" (which is ridiculous on its face, so I won't even bother insulting you on that point), but the complete loss of passive hate generation and the change from a multi-target tank, by virtue of the way Amends worked, to a single-target tank.The passive hate issue is the biggest problem. In defensive stance, the Paladin procs additional hate on hitting something; other plate tanks proc additional hate on being hit. That's a big issue when you're fighting mobs that frequently stun/stifle you. Yes, there's Aura of the Crusader, but it's on a fairly long recast timer and it doesn't always work. This is the single most important thing that Aeralik needs to address, in my opinion.Edit: To the OP, I would suggest that you encourage your Paladin guildmate to copy his character to the Test Copy server, along with a few of your guildmates and form up a group. Make him the Adept 3 version of Restitution (the new taunt that replaces Amends) and go run some easy instances just to give him a feel for what the changes are like. He may still not like it, but at least then he'll be making an informed decision.Generally speaking, GU51 is going to affect the playstyle of both tanks and DPS, and it's going to take some getting used to. With that said, there's no question that Paladins are getting the short end of the stick with this update. Things are being taken away from the class, and not being replaced with commensurate skills. Amends being replaced with another version of Rescue on a shorter timer is not a balanced change. There's more work Aeralik needs to do on the class to make it viable, and desirable, in raids.

Melli

01-14-2009, 02:40 PM

These are long overdue changes and anyone that quits because they suddenly have to tank in defensive (which was the original intent after all) probably needs to quit anyway. It was never intended that you be able to stay in offensive 100% of the time, hold aggro, take a beating AND do high DPS. It was never intended that DPS classes be able to wear anything they want and go balls to the walls on every fight with little to no risk of ganking aggro.Hopefully they will fix the paladin issue and I'd encourage paladins to get onto test, test the changes, feed back and make informed posts. That's the only way it might be adjusted. Ragequitting or threatening to quit isn't going to get anything fixed and is an immature response to the situation.SOE's mistake is that they let it continue as long as they did. This should have been balanced out a long time ago.

Vanderlay

01-14-2009, 03:33 PM

<cite>Pail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I actually shelved my Guard until the changes are patched to live. I'm looking forward to them greatly.</blockquote>QFEI have an alt tank and I CANT WAITWhy, because my alt tank will be able to generate his OWN hate now.I dont have to have a bard and enchanter with a swash/assassin to be able to hold hate on mythical toons pulling agro 75% of the fight. I wont have to rely on someone doing MY job of holding agro.He will be able to do it on his own.Most people are upset because they will lose dps when tanking. Thats all. OMG I do less dps when I tank now OhNOEs I Quit.......I welcome this change, but I do worry how this will affect raid agro, I guess no more easy mode dps spam unload.</blockquote>It's not so much the DPS that gets lowered...I can handle that as long as they increase the hate generation on procs and taunts. It's the penalty to S/C/P that's going to be the biggest thing. If you can't hit the mob, then you are going to have a harder time holding aggro period. If they lower the recasts on taunts and hate generating procs, it will be a lot better for tanks.

Elanjar

01-14-2009, 03:56 PM

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just for curiosity,how many Tanks do you know have been gone, announce to go with GU51?I would say, that's the deepest form of Feedback, people retiring from Guilds, Raids...I don't want the discussion "whining, adapt, reroll". That's not the intent.People retiring open holes beyond their classes.My own Raidcom on Innovation tries to persuade one of our Tanks (Paladin) not to quit. I'am his raidleader, not his judge, he feels betrayed by this update and to all his work to become a fine Tank.And if he quit, Sir Aeralik can do the search for a new one please and a Wizard, as his wife would be also an retirment for us. We have lost 5x Players to pregnancy last year (fertile raid *g*), a couple to raidguilds, one emigration to Israel, worsening Buisness/Jobs and starting of university/school. I can life with all of that. Loosing people to an Game Update... is inacceptable for me.</blockquote>My zerker, only class I've ever played past 50, and probably 98% of my playtime, will be shelved if the changes go through as they are currently.As soon as they take away my "choices" about how to tank in a game I pay MONTHLY for, I will no longer play that class. As for the game we'll see.And to all you who say, tanks should only be in defensive and should never do more than crap damage. Then why am I called a fighter and why do i have two stances... They should have just gotten rid of all the different fighter classes and just had one called meatshield with a defensive stance and 5 taunts.

Detor

01-14-2009, 04:02 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>theriatis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hi,just two questions (i got no Paladin on Test):- Did the Paladins get any tools for Passive Hate Generation yet ? They are helpless when stunned or stiffled (and the Devs know how much Nameds and Trash is out there which stuns and stiffles every second), if Amends is not there.- Did the Paladins get faster and bigger heals, cures and wards to compensate for their survivability against other tanks ?Regards, theriatis.</blockquote>Hi,- No.- No.Thanks <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I think he was making a point, not actually asking for people to answer. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Vanderlay

01-14-2009, 04:12 PM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just for curiosity,how many Tanks do you know have been gone, announce to go with GU51?I would say, that's the deepest form of Feedback, people retiring from Guilds, Raids...I don't want the discussion "whining, adapt, reroll". That's not the intent.People retiring open holes beyond their classes.My own Raidcom on Innovation tries to persuade one of our Tanks (Paladin) not to quit. I'am his raidleader, not his judge, he feels betrayed by this update and to all his work to become a fine Tank.And if he quit, Sir Aeralik can do the search for a new one please and a Wizard, as his wife would be also an retirment for us. We have lost 5x Players to pregnancy last year (fertile raid *g*), a couple to raidguilds, one emigration to Israel, worsening Buisness/Jobs and starting of university/school. I can life with all of that. Loosing people to an Game Update... is inacceptable for me.</blockquote>My zerker, only class I've ever played past 50, and probably 98% of my playtime, will be shelved if the changes go through as they are currently.As soon as they take away my "choices" about how to tank in a game I pay MONTHLY for, I will no longer play that class. As for the game we'll see.And to all you who say, tanks should only be in defensive and should never do more than crap damage. Then why am I called a fighter and why do i have two stances... They should have just gotten rid of all the different fighter classes and just had one called meatshield with a defensive stance and 5 taunts.</blockquote>I have to agree with you on this one Elanjar. My idea of a berserker wasn't a "meatshield" so much, but a FIGHTER/WARRIOR who leapt into battle weapons a-blazin', and threw down some heat! Now it looks as though Guardians, Berserkers, SK's, and pally's are all one class. Yea sure we have our seperate CA's, but if we all have to run defensive stance and taunt the hell out of the mob, we might as well be labeled a new class called Taunters.

Norrsken

01-14-2009, 04:21 PM

<cite>Vanderlay wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just for curiosity,how many Tanks do you know have been gone, announce to go with GU51?I would say, that's the deepest form of Feedback, people retiring from Guilds, Raids...I don't want the discussion "whining, adapt, reroll". That's not the intent.People retiring open holes beyond their classes.My own Raidcom on Innovation tries to persuade one of our Tanks (Paladin) not to quit. I'am his raidleader, not his judge, he feels betrayed by this update and to all his work to become a fine Tank.And if he quit, Sir Aeralik can do the search for a new one please and a Wizard, as his wife would be also an retirment for us. We have lost 5x Players to pregnancy last year (fertile raid *g*), a couple to raidguilds, one emigration to Israel, worsening Buisness/Jobs and starting of university/school. I can life with all of that. Loosing people to an Game Update... is inacceptable for me.</blockquote>My zerker, only class I've ever played past 50, and probably 98% of my playtime, will be shelved if the changes go through as they are currently.As soon as they take away my "choices" about how to tank in a game I pay MONTHLY for, I will no longer play that class. As for the game we'll see.And to all you who say, tanks should only be in defensive and should never do more than crap damage. Then why am I called a fighter and why do i have two stances... They should have just gotten rid of all the different fighter classes and just had one called meatshield with a defensive stance and 5 taunts.</blockquote>I have to agree with you on this one Elanjar. My idea of a berserker wasn't a "meatshield" so much, but a FIGHTER/WARRIOR who leapt into battle weapons a-blazin', and threw down some heat! Now it looks as though Guardians, Berserkers, SK's, and pally's are all one class. Yea sure we have our seperate CA's, but if we all have to run defensive stance and taunt the hell out of the mob, we might as well be labeled a new class called Taunters.</blockquote>I think the label you are trying to find is "tank".. Kindof.

denmom

01-14-2009, 04:23 PM

<cite>theriatis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hi,just two questions (i got no Paladin on Test):- Did the Paladins get any tools for Passive Hate Generation yet ? They are helpless when stunned or stiffled (and the Devs know how much Nameds and Trash is out there which stuns and stiffles every second), if Amends is not there.- Did the Paladins get faster and bigger heals, cures and wards to compensate for their survivability against other tanks ?Regards, theriatis.</blockquote>Paladins have nothing that can be set off while stunned/stifled. The closest to something that can be used while stunned/stifled, and only if the Paladin has the foresight to set it off while fighting mobs known to stun/stifle, is Consecration.I've set it off among a group of mobs that I know have a tendency to stun/stifle and it still runs despite that, doesn't get interrupted as other things do.This attack has a long recast timer, however.If I remember correctly, the other tanks have something, usually a taunt, which can be used while stunned/stifled.As for the faster heals, cures, wards. Not that I can see. A Paladin can reduce the casting speed of their single target and group heals in the Paladin AA tree as well as hasten the reuse speed of their two large "rescue" heals. They can also speed up the recast time of their ward in the same AA tree.I don't know the Shadows AA tree well yet, as I'm still working on the last 4 AA points on Pheep to finish out her Paladin tree, and then I'll be starting the Shadows. One thing at a time.

Kordran

01-14-2009, 04:54 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I remember correctly, the other tanks have something, usually a taunt, which can be used while stunned/stifled.</blockquote>Yes, and they have passive hate generation reactives proc off of being hit, which is another large component of them holding hate while stunned/stifled. Consecration and Holy Ground is an option when you're dealing with a large group of mobs, but as you pointed out, it requires knowing there's a good chance you're going to be locked down by a mob, and it has a large recast. And you had best hope you have solid healer(s) in your group, because that spell can bring the world down on you (e.g.: using Consecration in Guk can have "interesting" consequences).Restitution (the replacement for Amends) does have a threat-over-time component, but that's only for 20 seconds. There's also Faithful Cry, but it requires at least 184 APs. And neither of those is going to be able to hold a mob that's being actively hit. Aura of the Crusader doesn't clear all forms of control on the Paladin, and the tougher mobs tend to have uncurable effects anyway.I've said before, Paladins with raid gear, most or all of their masters and close to 200 APs will likely be able to manage their way through the change. They'll have some gear that procs hate, they'll have the achievement abilities like Aura and Faithful Cry and so on. But lower level Paladins, or ones that have average gear, few or no masters and fewer APs? I think they're really going to struggle with this change, particularly when tanking groups of mobs (linked or not).

denmom

01-14-2009, 05:01 PM

I love my mouse Paladin. She's my first ever toon that I had, I've had her since launch. It may say created in Feb 2006 on her profile but she was transferred from Antonica Bayle server to Unrest.Do I like the changes? Not all of them, no.Will I stop playing her?I had to think long and hard, and no...but Pheep won't be as much fun.I also have a mouse Zerker and a woodelf Monk, but these two I was going to go off tank with, so they're not as affected.But I have too many concerns with off stance as it is now. Yes I've tested on Test Copy. Yes, it was with the same folks I duo and trio with. Yes, we ran the same content on Test Copy as we do on Live. Yes, I do know that tanking in off stance, which means for us that I'm the primary damage, isn't a very good option. Yes, I know that our husband/wife duo will now have to be a trio or higher to get questing done.Overall, I'm not seeing any of my fighters as being as much fun after GU51. Those tanks who duo will have their game play broken.Sure, some scoff at the idea, but duos shouldn't be tossed by the wayside.

LygerT

01-14-2009, 05:02 PM

umm, the current threats you see from tanks are nothing compared to the threads of complaints on the TSO beta forums from the whiners who said their class was broken. those classes still are main tanking just fine today.<cite>theriatis wrote:</cite><blockquote>- Did the Paladins get any tools for Passive Hate Generation yet ? They are helpless when stunned or stiffled (and theDevs know how much Nameds and Trash is out there which stuns and stiffles every second), if Amends is not there.</blockquote>welcome to how i have had to play for the past 3 and a half years. in TSO it may suck but that is part of the challenge of the game. i was never allowed to stand there stunned and siphon hate off of another DPS class, i had to wait until i was unstunned and keep doing my job.<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love my mouse Paladin. She's my first ever toon that I had, I've had her since launch. It may say created in Feb 2006 on her profile but she was transferred from Antonica Bayle server to Unrest.Do I like the changes? Not all of them, no.Will I stop playing her?I had to think long and hard, and no...but Pheep won't be as much fun.I also have a mouse Zerker and a woodelf Monk, but these two I was going to go off tank with, so they're not as affected.But I have too many concerns with off stance as it is now. Yes I've tested on Test Copy. Yes, it was with the same folks I duo and trio with. Yes, we ran the same content on Test Copy as we do on Live. Yes, I do know that tanking in off stance, which means for us that I'm the primary damage, isn't a very good option. Yes, I know that our husband/wife duo will now have to be a trio or higher to get questing done.Overall, I'm not seeing any of my fighters as being as much fun after GU51. Those tanks who duo will have their game play broken.Sure, some scoff at the idea, but duos shouldn't be tossed by the wayside.</blockquote>yes, this is a problem, i've already suggested a middle stance which provides a middle ground for dps, more of a survivability hit but no less threat generation loss. i'd expect this to take some time to work out though, the current changes have already taken several months and still need some work for certain classes like paladins. the only thing i can suggest is continue to offer your suggestions on how to keep duoing a viability with that idea in mind.

denmom

01-14-2009, 05:20 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I remember correctly, the other tanks have something, usually a taunt, which can be used while stunned/stifled.</blockquote>Yes, and they have passive hate generation reactives proc off of being hit, which is another large component of them holding hate while stunned/stifled. Consecration and Holy Ground is an option when you're dealing with a large group of mobs, but as you pointed out, it requires knowing there's a good chance you're going to be locked down by a mob, and it has a large recast. And you had best hope you have solid healer(s) in your group, because that spell can bring the world down on you (e.g.: using Consecration in Guk can have "interesting" consequences).Restitution (the replacement for Amends) does have a threat-over-time component, but that's only for 20 seconds. There's also Faithful Cry, but it requires at least 184 APs. And neither of those is going to be able to hold a mob that's being actively hit. Aura of the Crusader doesn't clear all forms of control on the Paladin, and the tougher mobs tend to have uncurable effects anyway.I've said before, Paladins with raid gear, most or all of their masters and close to 200 APs will likely be able to manage their way through the change. They'll have some gear that procs hate, they'll have the achievement abilities like Aura and Faithful Cry and so on. But lower level Paladins, or ones that have average gear, few or no masters and fewer APs? I think they're really going to struggle with this change, particularly when tanking groups of mobs (linked or not).</blockquote>Aye...and there's also Sigil of the Hero, but that lasts for 15 secs unmodified in the Paladin tree, 20 secs when it is.And yah, I've learned when and where to set off Consectation and how close to mobs I can get with it. I've done things like set it off in DFC, Unrest, OoB and other close areas and just missed the mobs' aggro range.Restitution could be a good taunt if it could be used while stifled/stunned and had a shorter recast. It lasts for 20 secs, has a 54.5 sec reuse if the Paladin has gone down the Str line to the end. That's 34.5 secs where things can go wrong when stifled/stunned, and that happens a lot even on overland mobs. I so hate yha-lei, the Bloodskulls, and many others. They so like to punt Pheep. /rolls eyesYanno, I'd so love it if a fighter could headbutt as an attack, like how the yha-lei do. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I tell ya, I intend to put Circular Smite into good and heavy use after GU51. It's part of my rotation anyhow, but it'll be more so, everytime it recycles. That's where the "open taunt" is for Paladins, it's part of that blue aoe. On Test Copy, I found that I can hold unlinked mobs with that against the L80 Wizard as long as I keep Circular Smite in constant rotation while in def stance.So yes, I'm learning...I'd just really would rather that off stance, where I have my best damage, would have threat lessened instead of that detrimental dethreat. No, it's not to generate and keep aggro, I'm the primary damage dealer in the Paladin/Warden duo.Meh, I'm rambling...and I've given feedback in these threads, in the Paladin threads, and on Test Copy.

denmom

01-14-2009, 05:27 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>theriatis wrote:</cite><blockquote>- Did the Paladins get any tools for Passive Hate Generation yet ? They are helpless when stunned or stiffled (and theDevs know how much Nameds and Trash is out there which stuns and stiffles every second), if Amends is not there.</blockquote>welcome to how i have had to play for the past 3 and a half years. in TSO it may suck but that is part of the challenge of the game. i was never allowed to stand there stunned and siphon hate off of another DPS class, i had to wait until i was unstunned and keep doing my job.<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love my mouse Paladin. She's my first ever toon that I had, I've had her since launch. It may say created in Feb 2006 on her profile but she was transferred from Antonica Bayle server to Unrest.Do I like the changes? Not all of them, no.Will I stop playing her?I had to think long and hard, and no...but Pheep won't be as much fun.I also have a mouse Zerker and a woodelf Monk, but these two I was going to go off tank with, so they're not as affected.But I have too many concerns with off stance as it is now. Yes I've tested on Test Copy. Yes, it was with the same folks I duo and trio with. Yes, we ran the same content on Test Copy as we do on Live. Yes, I do know that tanking in off stance, which means for us that I'm the primary damage, isn't a very good option. Yes, I know that our husband/wife duo will now have to be a trio or higher to get questing done.Overall, I'm not seeing any of my fighters as being as much fun after GU51. Those tanks who duo will have their game play broken.Sure, some scoff at the idea, but duos shouldn't be tossed by the wayside.</blockquote>yes, this is a problem, i've already suggested a middle stance which provides a middle ground for dps, more of a survivability hit but no less threat generation loss. i'd expect this to take some time to work out though, the current changes have already taken several months and still need some work for certain classes like paladins. the only thing i can suggest is continue to offer your suggestions on how to fix keep duoing a viability with that idea in mind.</blockquote>Yah, hear ya on the stifle/stunn. I hate it so much, but then again I run with a very good Warden who's on the ball. After a first fight with an unknown mob, I tell him which are stifle/stun. Some trauma you can just leave on, they're annoyances and can be worked thru, but the stifle/stuns are the ones to get off fast.As for the middle stance, hey, they could always take a page from the Brawlers for that.Yanno something else I'd love to see for Paladins? Make their darned spells uninterruptable when they move...maybe just the ward. I can't tell you how many times I've moved to where the mage and healer are to get a mob only to interrupt myself casting. >_< It gets kind've amusing when I've switched from my Zerker mouse to my Pally mouse...I spend about two or three fights grouching how nono, I can't toss some CAs while I move because they're spells and interrupt. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Hirofortis

01-14-2009, 05:39 PM

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>His Paladin is on test, my Paladin is on Test, our Guard is on Test. We have crushed the Kunzar Wall a lot and in the next days a swarm of our Raiders will arrive on Test for testing Ancient One Trash.Allways funy that people think that people retire without good reason and decide such things in rage.And little steelbadger, people in my raid are on average 35 +/- so we don't need to grow up.</blockquote>Age does not denote maturity.The test wall does not denote agro control.Peeps always complain and say they are goinna retire when this or that comes out.You want a count on how many retire. Fine. Each change has it's ups and downs. I for one am looking forward to getting rid of tanks dependency on other classes to do there job. So DPS will be lower. big deal. As long as taunts are up, it is a wash. In fact the way I have seen it it will actually improve our ability to hold agro. If your so worried about it, get your guild to all get on test and do some test raid content. Then you can really judge how it will effect you.

Kordran

01-14-2009, 05:44 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>welcome to how i have had to play for the past 3 and a half years. in TSO it may suck but that is part of the challenge of the game. i was never allowed to stand there stunned and siphon hate off of another DPS class, i had to wait until i was unstunned and keep doing my job.</blockquote>Not really. You have Aggressive Defense, which gives you a chance to generate threat when you take damage. That's the opposite of the Paladin, which requires that they hit something. Your threat gain is passive -- you just have to stand there and get hit, regardless if you're stunned or stifled -- and your threat will increase. The Paladin has to actually make a successful melee strike against the mob -- spells do not trigger it -- and because of the penalties in defensive stance, the actual chance that it will proc is lower than yours.And then there's your CAs like Insolence, which is an active out-of-encounter taunt (with no target limits) that also has a passive taunt tied to it that will increase threat to an entire encounter roughly every other time that you're hit. Unless you're mezzed/stunned/stifled right on the pull, leading with Insolence pretty much guarantees you have aggro lock. Of course, that can also be dangerous in packed areas, since it has a pretty wide radius.Bottom line, when you're stunned/stifled, you can still generate threat. It's not a huge amount, but it's there. Paladins get no form of passive threat generation. At all. That's the discrepency. It used to be justified because there was Amends. Now that Amends is no more (at least, not as it was), some form of passive hate generation needs to be added to the class, in parity with all of the other plate tanks out there. Aeralik, if you're reading, this last paragraph is for you. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" />

LygerT

01-14-2009, 06:07 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>welcome to how i have had to play for the past 3 and a half years. in TSO it may suck but that is part of the challenge of the game. i was never allowed to stand there stunned and siphon hate off of another DPS class, i had to wait until i was unstunned and keep doing my job.</blockquote>Not really. You have Aggressive Defense, which gives you a chance to generate threat when you take damage. That's the opposite of the Paladin, which requires that they hit something. Your threat gain is passive -- you just have to stand there and get hit, regardless if you're stunned or stifled -- and your threat will increase. The Paladin has to actually make a successful melee strike against the mob -- spells do not trigger it -- and because of the penalties in defensive stance, the actual chance that it will proc is lower than yours.And then there's your CAs like Insolence, which is an active out-of-encounter taunt (with no target limits) that also has a passive taunt tied to it that will increase threat to an entire encounter roughly every other time that you're hit. Unless you're mezzed/stunned/stifled right on the pull, leading with Insolence pretty much guarantees you have aggro lock. Of course, that can also be dangerous in packed areas, since it has a pretty wide radius.Bottom line, when you're stunned/stifled, you can still generate threat. It's not a huge amount, but it's there. Paladins get no form of passive threat generation. At all. That's the discrepency. It used to be justified because there was Amends. Now that Amends is no more (at least, not as it was), some form of passive hate generation needs to be added to the class, in parity with all of the other plate tanks out there. Aeralik, if you're reading, this last paragraph is for you. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>we're avoidance tanks, our job is to NOT get hit is the point. if you think aggressive defense proccing does much more than a twinge of hate here or there then i don't know what to say. if anything you brought up a good point about how dps will have to be more careful when all tanks are stunned and stifled because we are now dependent on ourselves for aggro so during those downtimes we have to have enough aggro built up or they need to learn when and when not to dps.you're right on insolence, it is a great tool but it's also only available every 3 minutes and can easily get you in over your head, especially in raids.i've already stated pallies need work still, i just cleared up a few things that i felt were blown out of proportion or had no leg to stand on as usual. if you really think if i am even decently holding aggro that while stunned those things will hold the mobs, you're mistaken, they certainly help but only for a short period of time.i love humping a wall while the mob peels as much as the next guy but i don't use it as an argument tool.

Kordran

01-14-2009, 06:25 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>we're avoidance tanks, our job is to NOT get hit is the point. if you think aggressive defense proccing does much more than a twinge of hate here or there then i don't know what to say.</blockquote>Brawlers are avoidance tanks, Warriors are definitely not avoidance tanks. You may have relatively high avoidance through gear, but you're no Monk or Bruiser (my Paladin actually has somewhat higher unbuffed avoidance than you do, 62 vs. 60 ... but I would certainly never claim that the Paladin is an avoidance tank).As for Aggressive Defense, I stated that it wasn't a lot of threat being generated. But something > nothing. And right now, Paladins have nothing.Edit: All that aside, you're absolutely right to point out DPS will also have to learn to change their playstyle somewhat, or find themselves frequently doing floor inspections. Healers that just let stuns/stifles sit on the tank, DPS that don't watch their threat meters ... these changes are going to introduce a learning curve for everyone.And frankly, they'd best hope that fighters largely warm up to these changes. Right now it's not uncommon to see people begging for a tank to run them through some instances; if a good portion of fighters decide to "sit out" because they don't like the direction Aeralik is taking their class, it's ultimately going to punish everyone as good tanks become even harder to find. There's also the corollary that tanks seem to have the highest burnout rate of any of the other classes, primarily because so much responsibility is put on them. If these changes accellerate that, where you have more tanks just getting fed up with the mechanics of tanking, the consequences of that will ripple throughout the game.In TSO, if you don't have a solid tank, you're not doing much of anything.

Azurro

01-14-2009, 06:26 PM

To the Original Post I will wait and see how the changes play out on live since it’s near impossible to find a group on Test but from what I have seen I’m not that encouraged. My place as OT in my raiding guild would probably be secure for some time but if it gets to the point where I can’t do my job and become a burden to the raid I will step aside and either raid on a alt which I’m not that interested in doing yet again or walk away from the game. I switched to Circular Smite as my master 2 choice on test since it’s the only reliable means Paladins really have of dealing with multiple encounters now. Also I am being to think there is only one AA build left for us that makes sense Str – 4 4 4 8Agi – 4 4 8Sta – 4 4 8Int – 4 4 8 You might give up something to push to the str end line but that’s really the only choice left. That way at least there is a chance that trample will set it off your defensive proc generating hate on multiple mobs. I just can’t get over the feeling that Paladins are being pigeon holed into a very deep and very dark hole.

Sharakari

01-14-2009, 06:46 PM

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>His Paladin is on test, my Paladin is on Test, our Guard is on Test. We have crushed the Kunzar Wall a lot and in the next days a swarm of our Raiders will arrive on Test for testing Ancient One Trash.Allways funy that people think that people retire without good reason and decide such things in rage.And little steelbadger, people in my raid are on average 35 +/- so we don't need to grow up.</blockquote>The Devs said these changes would be on test for a while. They said they were waiting for feedback to make changes to put on test again. There has been a TON of feedback (mostly negative from what I read) so let them make their changes and post to test again.Time will tell how things look after the dust settles. Keep your chin up!

Bremer

01-14-2009, 07:08 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins have nothing that can be set off while stunned/stifled. The closest to something that can be used while stunned/stifled, and only if the Paladin has the foresight to set it off while fighting mobs known to stun/stifle, is Consecration.</blockquote>As someone who never played a Paladin I'm always happy to help people who share the same fate. Crusaders can skill "Aura of the Crusader" in the Shadow tree, cures all controll effects and makes player immune to them for 20 seconds, 1 min recast. Pretty cool for Paladins and Shadowknights, bad luck for people like you and me who don't play a Paladin.

denmom

01-14-2009, 07:28 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins have nothing that can be set off while stunned/stifled. The closest to something that can be used while stunned/stifled, and only if the Paladin has the foresight to set it off while fighting mobs known to stun/stifle, is Consecration.</blockquote>As someone who never played a Paladin I'm always happy to help people who share the same fate. Crusaders can skill "Aura of the Crusader" in the Shadow tree, cures all controll effects and makes player immune to them for 20 seconds, 1 min recast. Pretty cool for Paladins and Shadowknights, bad luck for people like you and me who don't play a Paladin.</blockquote>/points to her sigI do play one. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But I've not enough points yet to get the Shadows tree started. Haven't filled out the Paladin tree yet. Sure, I could move points over like I did on my Warden, but I'll be scraping for AA's to fill out the Paladin tree so that I can finish out the Shadows tree like I am on my healer. Right now, too many of the Paladin AAs are in good use. It was much easier to shift over points off the Warden tree to the Shadows.I've been reading about Aura of the Crusader, and have that on my "to get" list ever since I saw it on TSO beta. But I've learned that some effects don't get cured with it, but on the other hand, I think some of those not cured are things that I won't deal with since I don't raid. I'm not too sure and I've been looking for info on just what all it covers.

Kordran

01-14-2009, 07:28 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>As someone who never played a Paladin I'm always happy to help people who share the same fate. Crusaders can skill "Aura of the Crusader" in the Shadow tree, cures all controll effects and makes player immune to them for 20 seconds, 1 min recast. Pretty cool for Paladins and Shadowknights, bad luck for people like you and me who don't play a Paladin.</blockquote>Actually, it doesn't clear all control effects. It clears fear, roots, daze, stun, stifle and forced target changes. 10cp for the person who notices what's missing in that list.It has a recast of one minute, and you can't use it preventively. In other words, you can't cast Aura when you have no control effects on you just to make yourself immune for 20 seconds; the immunity only triggers if a hostile control effect is actually removed by the spell. I can't count the the number of time's I've used it, but the healer in my group clears the effect right before hand and so I've basically "wasted" Aura (even if there's no effect cleared, you have to wait the full minute to use it again). And it does not clear "uncurable" control effects, which quite a lot of the higher-end heroic mobs, not to mention many raid mobs, have.Trust me, it's not quite so special as you seem to think it is.

denmom

01-14-2009, 07:30 PM

<cite>Sharakari@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>His Paladin is on test, my Paladin is on Test, our Guard is on Test. We have crushed the Kunzar Wall a lot and in the next days a swarm of our Raiders will arrive on Test for testing Ancient One Trash.Allways funy that people think that people retire without good reason and decide such things in rage.And little steelbadger, people in my raid are on average 35 +/- so we don't need to grow up.</blockquote>The Devs said these changes would be on test for a while. They said they were waiting for feedback to make changes to put on test again. There has been a TON of feedback (mostly negative from what I read) so let them make their changes and post to test again.Time will tell how things look after the dust settles. Keep your chin up!</blockquote>Yah, I've been waiting for the next round of changes on Test Copy so we (husband and guildees there) can test things more.

Glerin

01-14-2009, 07:30 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins have nothing that can be set off while stunned/stifled. The closest to something that can be used while stunned/stifled, and only if the Paladin has the foresight to set it off while fighting mobs known to stun/stifle, is Consecration.</blockquote>As someone who never played a Paladin I'm always happy to help people who share the same fate. Crusaders can skill "Aura of the Crusader" in the Shadow tree, cures all controll effects and makes player immune to them for 20 seconds, 1 min recast. Pretty cool for Paladins and Shadowknights, bad luck for people like you and me who don't play a Paladin.</blockquote>exept Aura of the crusader dosnt cure mezzes, only works on curable effects (which a good healer gets off of you so fast you rarely if ever actually have enough time to click aura of the crusader), which leaves it as a fairly crappy ability, do i have it? yes, do i use it often? I try, but rarely im faster then my healers on cures, and im pretty darn fast imoas to the OP, I know alot of tanks who arent happy and kick and moan about these changes, im one of them, i fail to see the reason to game something this gamebreaking after 4years of live gaming in a game, it just seems like a really really stupid thing to do. I will definitly not enjoy my paladin as much since i know for a fact, with the current changes, i can't run any more instance groups with my current instance group.I will never be able to do palace of ferzhul due to the named with 20-30ish unlinked adds due to not having ANY form of real aoe aggro anymore for a lengthier amount of time to save the healers until mob is dead.I will never be able to do guk: Outer stronghold without 1-2 really [Removed for Content] amazing mezzers due to not having a single chance at keeping aggro.And yes, I do have my paladin on test, the current changes just arent realistic and IMO, is pretty darn gamebreaking for paladins especially, and i'd imagine that zerkers are the ones getting hit the second hardest from this.

denmom

01-14-2009, 07:38 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>As someone who never played a Paladin I'm always happy to help people who share the same fate. Crusaders can skill "Aura of the Crusader" in the Shadow tree, cures all controll effects and makes player immune to them for 20 seconds, 1 min recast. Pretty cool for Paladins and Shadowknights, bad luck for people like you and me who don't play a Paladin.</blockquote>Actually, it doesn't clear all control effects. It clears fear, roots, daze, stun, stifle and forced target changes. 10cp for the person who notices what's missing in that list.It has a recast of one minute, and you can't use it preventively. In other words, you can't case Aura when you have no control effects on you to make you immune for 20 seconds; the immunity only triggers if a hostile control effect is actually removed by the spell. I can't count the the number of time's I've used it, but the healer in my group clears the effect right before hand and so I've basically "wasted" Aura (even if there's no effect cleared, you have to wait the full minute to use it again). And it does not clear "uncurable" control effects, which quite a lot of the higher-end heroic mobs, not to mention many raid mobs, have.Trust me, it's not quite so special as you seem to think it is.</blockquote>Ahah, thank you, Kordran.

Azurro

01-14-2009, 07:50 PM

Aura takes 161 AA’s minimum to get so I wouldn’t call it an ability to can build a class around would you? Especially since you can’t go over 100 AA’s until level 70. Also while it’s a useful ability it sounds a lot better on paper then it works in practice. Come to think about it that’s the general problem with the Paladin class. Our abilities like Amends, Sigil, Aura, Divine Aura, Wards/Heals, etc. all sound great on paper but as implemented none of them really stand up nearly as well in practice. It’s not that a smart paladin can’t accomplish a lot with these abilities it’s just that it takes a lot more work then most other tank classes to do so. So people who have never really played a paladin see all these “cool” abilities as described in the spell description and see those paladins that actually make the most of them and come to the conclusion that the class is the “easy button” of tanks. It seems like the Dev’s have bought into this line of reasoning.

Bremer

01-14-2009, 08:04 PM

If everything the Paladin offers is really so bad, why do you play one? Only to put a buff on the best dd and watch your group killing the mobs? Is that everything a Paladin is for you?You can get the control effect cure if you have 130 points, not 160, so pretty easy to achieve. And saying you have no way to deal with stuns if you can cure them while stunned and become immune to them 1/3 of the time. If you want passive hate gain simply cast sigil. Or cast the new Amend after curing stuns from yourself. It generates 1k threat per second for 20 seconds. Pretty cool if you ask me.

Glerin

01-14-2009, 08:32 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>If everything the Paladin offers is really so bad, why do you play one? Only to put a buff on the best dd and watch your group killing the mobs? Is that everything a Paladin is for you?You can get the control effect cure if you have 130 points, not 160, so pretty easy to achieve. And saying you have no way to deal with stuns if you can cure them while stunned and become immune to them 1/3 of the time. If you want passive hate gain simply cast sigil. Or cast the new Amend after curing stuns from yourself. It generates 1k threat per second for 20 seconds. Pretty cool if you ask me.</blockquote>only problem is most mobs stuns / stiffles etc is on a longer then 20sec recast so its pretty worthless unless fighting multiple mobs, or against a mob who have alot of each effect that they keep casting (Which are rare)reason I rolled a paladin is because in most games its a divine champion type of character (a melee based fighter who uses divine powers to enchance his fighting abilities / protect his allies), hes the good guy basically, and i wanted to be a tank.atm paladins -do- offer something to groups; I can push out pretty darn decent dps in offensive gear+stance (at the cost of alot of survivability i might add, atleast in my case), i can also ensure that i will always have aggro as long as i do just this, and im able to group with my old-time friends who have advanced past me in raidprogression (due to being on AB as a euro - bad mistake on the server to roll on but i aint pushing out the cash to xfer off), this change will -very- promptly end this, i wont be able to keep aggro off of them in ae / aoe fights (which most fights are), i can also solo heal pretty decently due to having 5/5 in the top 2 healing abilities in our eof line (single / groupheal), so even if our solo healer goes down this might not mean a wipe since i can just move over, res them up and keep myself healed long enough while doing this, and keep aggro, once test hits, this is -not- going to be an option due to me being forced into buttonmashing my 2taunts.