Why Play either Summoner Class? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Compas

01-13-2009, 11:59 PM

This is just getting rediculus, both summoner classes just are completely usless for raids, groups, and to top it off are not even the best solo class. I am not saying the classes are unplayable but its so lack luster to completely undesirable its rather depressing to even log on. So I ask 5 questions.1. Why bring either summoner to a raid, they provide no raidwide or substantial group buffs, their debuffs are insignificant and their damage is easily replaced by the preditor or sorcerer classes. So from a rail leader standpoint why waste a finite slot in a raid on one?2. At one point Fyreflyte mentioned that gear should not be used to balence classes and yet thats seems to be the "fix for the summoner classes in this most recent expansion, But with the high end gear being raid required or very rare drops from the instances doesn't thsi seem like a random chance to be "fixed"?3. Why is the gear that also enhances the pets also lave less of an impact on the caster, it been made clear in many otehr posts the pet and the caster are a package deal hence compenents of each other, so why the lesser improvement to the gear?4. The swarm pets are still very poorly implemented being a dot that has to actually hit, so suffereing all the resistability issues of a spell, then all the parry,ripost,block and jsut hitting their target , and can be killed seems to makes these spells very sub-par, and to really make these less impressive they recive no bonuses from teh caster or pet buffs, and no group or raid buffs, why is that?5. So really it comes down to why even play this class?????Sorry that this has turned into a rant but these questions really are just floating about with no answer; other then we will look into it later. Its like having bought a car only to find out that the power stearing, locks, AC, Heat, and windsheid wipers don't work but the manufacturer says we will get to it later cause we need to get the airbags working for the rear passanger doors first.Thank youCompas / Anjez80 Necromancer(retired) / 80 TroubadorUnrest

Noaani

01-14-2009, 12:16 AM

<cite>Compas wrote:</cite><blockquote>2. At one point Fyreflyte mentioned that gear should not be used to balence classes and yet thats seems to be the "fix for the summoner classes in this most recent expansion, But with the high end gear being raid required or very rare drops from the instances doesn't thsi seem like a random chance to be "fixed"?</blockquote>Actually, he said that a single item should not be responsible for class balance.It has been bought to the devs attention that summoners need utility, and it is something that will presumably be addressed in the near(ish) future. Since summoner DPS is starting to get back up to the point where they are competing with rouges, when they get some utility - assuming it is actually worthwhile - they will be more wanted on raids specifically.Summoner DPS in groups is fine as it is, if it is a well played summoner. It is the easiest class in the game to play poorly, but the few that excel at the class do very well.

thog_zork

01-14-2009, 08:14 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>It has been bought to the devs attention that summoners need utility, and it is something that will presumably be addressed in the near(ish) future. Since summoner DPS is starting to get back up to the point where they are competing with rouges, when they get some utility - assuming it is actually worthwhile - they will be more wanted on raids specifically.Summoner DPS in groups is fine as it is, if it is a well played summoner. It is the easiest class in the game to play poorly, but the few that excel at the class do very well.</blockquote>Yeah summonders can do ok dps in heroic play but only with a good player and the correct support otherwise a scout / chanter would benefit the group more ! So there goes are slots even for grouping !i do not argue about min/max in raiding because you agree on this one i make a long story short: conjuror -> subpar dps + no utiliy -> sitting out on the hard stuff because no raid desirability over other classes which could take the summoner spot !Compas posted very good questions which pretty much sums up the summoners issues and the fact that we need attention asap because more and more summoners leave or change classes ! I think he made a clear&good point!ps. most of the conjuror agreed upon the fact that fixing a class by gear is bad design !

hellfire

01-14-2009, 08:19 AM

<cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote>ps. most of the conjuror agreed upon the fact that fixing a class by gear is bad design !</blockquote>Yeah as i have stated many times in the past its the worst way to fix major class issues.

Windowlicker

01-14-2009, 09:02 AM

<cite>Compas wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is just getting rediculus, both summoner classes just are completely usless for raids, groups, and to top it off are not even the best solo class. I am not saying the classes are unplayable but its so lack luster to completely undesirable its rather depressing to even log on. So I ask 5 questions.1. Why bring either summoner to a raid, they provide no raidwide or substantial group buffs, their debuffs are insignificant and their damage is easily replaced by the preditor or sorcerer classes. So from a rail leader standpoint why waste a finite slot in a raid on one?2. At one point Fyreflyte mentioned that gear should not be used to balence classes and yet thats seems to be the "fix for the summoner classes in this most recent expansion, But with the high end gear being raid required or very rare drops from the instances doesn't thsi seem like a random chance to be "fixed"?3. Why is the gear that also enhances the pets also lave less of an impact on the caster, it been made clear in many otehr posts the pet and the caster are a package deal hence compenents of each other, so why the lesser improvement to the gear?4. The swarm pets are still very poorly implemented being a dot that has to actually hit, so suffereing all the resistability issues of a spell, then all the parry,ripost,block and jsut hitting their target , and can be killed seems to makes these spells very sub-par, and to really make these less impressive they recive no bonuses from teh caster or pet buffs, and no group or raid buffs, why is that?5. So really it comes down to why even play this class?????Sorry that this has turned into a rant but these questions really are just floating about with no answer; other then we will look into it later. Its like having bought a car only to find out that the power stearing, locks, AC, Heat, and windsheid wipers don't work but the manufacturer says we will get to it later cause we need to get the airbags working for the rear passanger doors first.Thank youCompas / Anjez80 Necromancer(retired) / 80 TroubadorUnrest</blockquote>1. Summoners are currently doing more damage then any mage, aside from perhaps Wizards. They can Rez, CoH, Power Feed, Cast Hearts/Shards(Which yes, people still use). On top of that, FD. Beyond all that, they split hate with the pet making them some of the lowest hate generating DPS classes in the game. Sounds like quite a few reasons to me.2. That gear is making your class very powerful at the moment. And it's easily available.3. Because you don't need any more damage then you already have. The goal isn't to overpower you.4. Your not the only one with bad swarm pets.5. Why play a Warlock? We have even less. Why play a brusier? Why play a Monk? What's the benefit of playing an Inquisitor? Join the club.

Bakual

01-14-2009, 09:52 AM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Summoners are currently doing more damage then any mage, aside from perhaps Wizards. They can Rez, CoH, Power Feed, Cast Hearts/Shards(Which yes, people still use). On top of that, FD. Beyond all that, they split hate with the pet making them some of the lowest hate generating DPS classes in the game. Sounds like quite a few reasons to me.</blockquote>I agree with your points about our damage in groups. I feel like I do well with the current equipment. You're also right about our hate generating. Just with the new equipment, our pet does a whole lot more damage and I now often loose my pet due to agro (be it slacking tanks or whatever) thus resulting in huge hate that gets transfered to me, meaning almost certain death for me as well. But then that can change with the fighter changes - I wait for that first <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />About our utility. You post sounds like all summoner are capable of doing everything you mentioned, but I wanted to point out that it's the utility of both summoners combined what you wrote:Necromancers can FD and Rezz, some Power Feed I think and casting hearts,Conjuror can CotH and casting shards and some water breathing stone (hurray!)Not that much utilityspells if spelt out per class I think.

thog_zork

01-14-2009, 10:15 AM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Summoners are currently doing more damage then any mage, aside from perhaps Wizards. They can Rez, CoH, Power Feed, Cast Hearts/Shards(Which yes, people still use). On top of that, FD. Beyond all that, they split hate with the pet making them some of the lowest hate generating DPS classes in the game. Sounds like quite a few reasons to me.2. That gear is making your class very powerful at the moment. And it's easily available.3. Because you don't need any more damage then you already have. The goal isn't to overpower you.4. Your not the only one with bad swarm pets.5. Why play a Warlock? We have even less. Why play a brusier? Why play a Monk? What's the benefit of playing an Inquisitor? Join the club.</blockquote>@1 You failed to adress the point summoners do significant lower dps then sorcs/preds and only comparable dps to rogue and a little bit over chanters WHILE BRINGING NOTHING TO THE RAID AT ALL! all other classes bring either more dps, more utility or simply booth !Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?@2 While weaking the caster ... you are better of for overal dps if you only use some selected pieces !@3 Without utility and only supbar dps why take a summoner over another class ? there is no logical reason given equal gear/skill players of another mentioned class sitting !@4 but summoner got the most swarmpet out of all classes conj have 3 out of 11 damage spells. these are 3 spells besides all otehr issues with swarm pets which could not be improved by gear at all ! i call this bad design !

Huntress Jellica

01-14-2009, 11:02 AM

<cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote>@1 You failed to adress the point summoners do significant lower dps then sorcs/preds and only comparable dps to rogue and a little bit over chanters WHILE BRINGING NOTHING TO THE RAID AT ALL! all other classes bring either more dps, more utility or simply booth !Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?</blockquote>Haha, and, also, HAH! Ok, if you can't see why a raid needs shards/hearts, FD, CoTH, or rez... I recommend you STOP playing a summoner (if you are one), and roll a new class.There are lots of really big raid zones out there.. VP, anyone? That zone is very big, takes a lot of time to run across. Having a conjuror to CoTH somoene down instead of waiting 5 minutes or more makes a big difference. Or what if someone arrives late to the raid, or is called in to replace someone? They might not know where the raid force is within the zone, or how to find them, so having the conjuror CoTH them down saves time.. again.On long fights, with mana draining mobs, shards/hearts are a great tool for keeping up your power pool. Especially (again, VP example) if you're clicking statues on a Druusk fight, or grabbing shinies on a Nexona fight and you are out of range of group power regen or mage power feed. With Nex, depending on how your guild does it, you have to do a whole butt load of running around to get shinies, and quite often that requires SPRINTING which, last time I checked, requires a lot of power to use.If you're doing a hard fight, your priests should be focused on healing the MT/OT and their groups, not rezzing people. That's when dirges, paladins (if not tanking) and necromancers come in really handy.. for REZZING people so they can get back up and into the fight. Rezzing is a great, very helpful tool to have, not sure why you can't see that.And if a raid is about to wipe, instead of everyone reviving and having to run alllll the way back to where you were, pop a quick FD and stand up after reset to start rezzing the priests.. hmm, seems useful to me!You keep saying summoners are subpar damage. Yeah, sure not all summoners can do GODLY dps, but they DO have utility, and they DO have good dps.. Our conjuror (granted, he does have a mythical) is usually at or near the top of the parse, and our other conjuror who attends some raids (not mythical'd) usually does top 7 or so. Not sure how or why you think that is terrible dps.. that's pretty good, actually.If you want to talk about a class with NO utility and subpar dps, take a look at the ranger. Seriously. We bring nothing to the raid except for.. pathfinding.. WOW! And a short, 15 second group buff that ups a melee person's chance to hit with a weapon by not a whole lot.. B-F'ing-D.Summoners could surely use some tweaking.. I play one, so I know what you're talking about. But, frankly, they're doing ok. There's always room for improvement, but I'm pretty happy with the way my mage is right now. The one thing I wish they would fix is our t8 "scout" pet... that is a MONK, and the scout pet AAs don't work for it.. unless that changed, and I missed it. Which is definitely possible.

Yimway

01-14-2009, 11:56 AM

Summoners haven't been worth playing since EoF.It's been 15 months now, you've had plenty of time to re-roll.But yes, there is currently some busted gear that is allowing you to parse in the ballpark of where the class should be, but I'll wager that gear will be adjusted soon and you'll go back to being a steaming pile of mediocrity.The player base has been asking for the class to be fixed for a while, SoE's made no efforts to do so, and announced no plan to achieve it. I'm not sure why anyone expects things to change given that environment.My conji was benched the day RoK was released. She now sits at venril's door with 5 stacks of pearls, as thats the only useful thing I can find for a conji to do anymore.While I'd like to see the class fixed, I'd like to see you're pet inherit 50% of your spell damage and spell crit bonuses, I just have zero faith in SoE's willingness to do anything meaningful torwards fixing the classes.

Noaani

01-14-2009, 11:59 AM

<cite>Huntress Jellica wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to talk about a class with NO utility and subpar dps, take a look at the ranger.</blockquote>Rangers are definatly NOT subpar DPS. They have no utility, but a ranger in a raid will be competing for top of the parse assuming equal groups.

Noaani

01-14-2009, 12:01 PM

Huntress Jellica

01-14-2009, 12:11 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Huntress Jellica wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to talk about a class with NO utility and subpar dps, take a look at the ranger.</blockquote>Rangers are definatly NOT subpar DPS. They have no utility, but a ranger in a raid will be competing for top of the parse assuming equal groups.</blockquote>That's true, but unfortunately, most rangers don't get equal groups. I know a lot of rangers who get put in the "short bus" group. And not every raid runs around with a completely optimal force.It's the responsibility of raid leaders to put people in the groups where they will shine most, but when given a choice between assassin or ranger in the "good scout dps group" the assassin will always win. Unless the ranger has better gear & CA quality & is a favorite of the raid leader. Sorry, but it's true. I've seen it lots of times, and I'm not talking about my guild here either (though I do usually end up in the short bus group, too).My point is that rangers bring no utility, and still get out parsed by quite a lot of classes.. Where as rogues/assassins/enchanters all bring more utility and can regularly beat us on the parse. I'm not a super awesome expert, but I think I'm above average. To see chantes beating me regularly, while bringing loads more utility is a little disheartening. That's all I'm saying. Especially since I have to PAY for my dps. No other class has to pay as much for dps as a ranger. I'm not saying that I spend 3p per night on arrows like some rangers claim (I make my own), but I don't see any other class paying 2s per auto attack.. Which adds up very fast, let me tell you.But, anyway, back to the summoner class. =P

thog_zork

01-14-2009, 12:15 PM

<cite>Huntress Jellica wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote>@1 You failed to adress the point summoners do significant lower dps then sorcs/preds and only comparable dps to rogue and a little bit over chanters WHILE BRINGING NOTHING TO THE RAID AT ALL! all other classes bring either more dps, more utility or simply booth !Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?</blockquote>Haha, and, also, HAH! Ok, if you can't see why a raid needs shards/hearts, FD, CoTH, or rez... I recommend you STOP playing a summoner (if you are one), and roll a new class.</blockquote>Obvoisuly you have no clue what you are talking about taken from your post it quite clear for me that you are not raiding effective ! No serious raid need these things! This is not utility or what you get a raid spot !All your points is are not valid .. shards are useless because the are so many regulate your mana ... hint: illu mythic . mystic mythic and so on!come on power regen for druushk staue clicke & shinie harvester why in hell do they need that !? Besides that druushk dies in what 2 to 3 minutes !? this show me that you can not raid seriously !Rezzing please .. for what are the dirges in the raid ! Beside not that much people should die anyways maybe you sould work on this !FD odr COTH are just fluff spell those 2-3 minutes saved time means nothing if another class you could have taken instead would have you provided with the power to take the encounter down !what counts for raid desirability is the pure power you bring to the raid in terms of effectines during the fight !@Ranger supbar DPS! ROFL! have you even got a clue what a good ranger can do ? based on your uttrances i guess not !i will help you with this: they demolish summoners on all fights besides some rare multimob fights ! their ZW trash parses are soo much above what a good summoner can do with same quality of gear/group/skill and focus !

Noaani

01-14-2009, 12:20 PM

<cite>Huntress Jellica wrote:</cite><blockquote>when given a choice between assassin or ranger in the "good scout dps group" the assassin will always win.</blockquote>If that scout group has an illusionist, and the raid leader is putting an assassin in their over a ranger, he needs to learn how to builf a raid...

Huntress Jellica

01-14-2009, 12:29 PM

<cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Huntress Jellica wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote>@1 You failed to adress the point summoners do significant lower dps then sorcs/preds and only comparable dps to rogue and a little bit over chanters WHILE BRINGING NOTHING TO THE RAID AT ALL! all other classes bring either more dps, more utility or simply booth !Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?</blockquote>Haha, and, also, HAH! Ok, if you can't see why a raid needs shards/hearts, FD, CoTH, or rez... I recommend you STOP playing a summoner (if you are one), and roll a new class.</blockquote>Obvoisuly you have no clue what you are talking about taken from your post it quite clear for me that you are not raiding effective ! No serious raid need these things! This is not utility or what you get a raid spot !All your points is are not valid .. shards are useless because the are so many regulate your mana ... hint: illu mythic . mystic mythic and so on!come on power regen for druushk staue clicke & shinie harvester why in hell do they need that !? Besides that druushk dies in what 2 to 3 minutes !? this show me that you can not raid seriously !Rezzing please .. for what are the dirges in the raid ! Beside not that much people should die anyways maybe you sould work on this !FD odr COTH are just fluff spell those 2-3 minutes saved time means nothing if another class you could have taken instead would have you provided with the power to take the encounter down !what counts for raid desirability is the pure power you bring to the raid in terms of effectines during the fight !@Ranger supbar DPS! ROFL! have you even got a clue what a good ranger can do ? based on your uttrances i guess not !i will help you with this: they demolish summoners on all fights besides some rare multimob fights ! their ZW trash parses are soo much above what a good summoner can do with same quality of gear/group/skill and focus !</blockquote>Not every guild is O-M-F'ing-G UBER like yours, apparently. =) Not everyone can take down Druushk in 2 minutes, and, um, last I checked not everyone in my guild has their mythicals. Sure, power isn't super important for Druushk, but it helps when you need to heal yourself. Just sayin.If YOU can't see why summoners are good for raids, that is YOUR problem, and not mine. Summoners bring quite a lot to raids, and I am very happy that ours are, apparently, more competent than the ones in your guild.And like I said in a previous post, not every guild runs with an optimal raid force, because not every guild focuses completely on raiding. My guild is a family guild with an emphasis on raiding. We don't tell people to sit out because they aren't super 1337 and "awsum." It's not possible to get every one in the raid into a perfect group setting for them. We take the classes that are absolutely needed, and then do the best with who we have on line. And for not being elitist, we've done pretty well for ourselves.I have seen what a good ranger can do, and I've done it myself. But the opportunity to do so is rare, because I usually don't get the best groups. Which, frankly, is ok, because even though I might not be pulling off 7k parses all the time, or whatever, at least I'm helping my guild out. Which is what is REALLY important in this game, not my own personal glory. kkthxAnd for the love of god, attach your exclamation points and periods to the end of your sentences! Jeez.. If you're going to try to insult somone, at least do it coherently! And [Removed for Content] is an "uttrance?" lol. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Huntress Jellica

01-14-2009, 12:31 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Huntress Jellica wrote:</cite><blockquote>when given a choice between assassin or ranger in the "good scout dps group" the assassin will always win.</blockquote>If that scout group has an illusionist, and the raid leader is putting an assassin in their over a ranger, he needs to learn how to builf a raid...</blockquote>/agree. =P

thog_zork

01-14-2009, 12:42 PM

<cite>Huntress Jellica wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not every guild is O-M-F'ing-G UBER like yours, apparently. =) Not everyone can take down Druushk in 2 minutes, and, um, last I checked not everyone in my guild has their mythicals. Sure, power isn't super important for Druushk, but it helps when you need to heal yourself. Just sayin.If YOU can't see why summoners are good for raids, that is YOUR problem, and not mine. Summoners bring quite a lot to raids, and I am very happy that ours are, apparently, more competent than the ones in your guild.And like I said in a previous post, not every guild runs with an optimal raid force, because not every guild focuses completely on raiding. My guild is a family guild with an emphasis on raiding. We don't tell people to sit out because they aren't super 1337 and "awsum." It's not possible to get every one in the raid into a perfect group setting for them. We take the classes that are absolutely needed, and then do the best with who we have on line. And for not being elitist, we've done pretty well for ourselves.I have seen what a good ranger can do, and I've done it myself. But the opportunity to do so is rare, because I usually don't get the best groups. Which, frankly, is ok, because even though I might not be pulling off 7k parses all the time, or whatever, at least I'm helping my guild out. Which is what is REALLY important in this game, not my own personal glory. kkthxAnd for the love of god, attach your exclamation points and periods to the end of your sentences! Jeez.. If you're going to try to insult somone, at least do it coherently! And [Removed for Content] is an "uttrance?" lol. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I do not raid in an UBER guild we do not kill avatars (but cleared all rok instance content) and we are pretty much focused but semi/casual only ! So killing in druushk in tso in 2:30 minute is not an uber thing but pretty much standard i thing hardcore forces can take him down faster !iam not insulting anyone here ... i just say the truth ! I was just arguing that youre points are not valid for endgame raiding in rok even more so tso raiding!Ans this is exactly the point of this post "efficient endgame" raiding and this is why your "i raid completly casual" stuff does not belong here.Of course a good summoner can outparse players of lesser skill easily but things start to get clear if you raid with people all on equal skill and gear level ! this is why some completly casual raid players do not see this problem !Rangers are right now one of the classes with the highest singel target dps on trash and nameds !

DCarnage2

01-14-2009, 01:00 PM

Unfortunately summoners are in some dire need of some lovin... I see a lot of naysayers here, but the classes are garbage in their current form and need to be addressed. Yes I have an 80 conjy and yes I cleared all RoK raid zones with him. I rerolled as a wizzy. My parses went from 6500ish dps as a conjy to 10k as a wizzy. I also have an illusionist that can match summoner dps and sometimes surpass them in raids. My guild, like most no longer run summoners.Not enough spots for a summoner when you need 4 Bards and 4 - 5 Enchanters lol but that's a whole different story.

liveja

01-14-2009, 01:04 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Summoners [...] can Rez, CoH, Power Feed, Cast Hearts/Shards(Which yes, people still use). On top of that, FD.</blockquote>You list 5 abilities that "Summoners" have. Of those 5, three of them are Necro only, & one of them is Conjy only. Only one of them is shared -- which means that Necros have 4 of those 5 abilities, while Conjys only have 2, & only one of them is unique to Conjys.Between the two Summoner classes, I'd far, far rather be a Necro. My own Conjy is so boring & lackluster that I can't even be motivated to play him long enough to betray to Necro ... & my guild already has a 80 Necro. Thus, Conjy sits on the shelf, in favor of other, "sexier" characters that are much more fun to play.

thog_zork

01-14-2009, 01:08 PM

And best of all: these abilities are completly irrelvant/useless for a force who is raiding seriously in tso !

Yimway

01-14-2009, 01:09 PM

<cite>DCarnage2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not enough spots for a summoner when you need 4 Bards and 4 - 5 Enchanters lol but that's a whole different story.</blockquote>QFEI have to agree, if every conji re-rolled an enchanter, and every necro rerolled a troub, wouldn't we all be better off? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

liveja

01-14-2009, 01:14 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>if every conji re-rolled an enchanter</blockquote>I wonder what would happen to the Conjy population if the Devs allowed us to betray to any other Mage class.I know what I'd do.

DCarnage2

01-14-2009, 01:34 PM

As far as the Utility argument goes...Summoner heart/shard and power feed are not needed. That's what the 4 bards and 4 - 5 Enchanters are for. FD?! Everyone can FD if you are a tinkerer and if you want to FD more, you have brawlers, SK.CotH - It's nice to have sometimes but definately not needed. Most zones do not respawn and people can easily run to the raid group or if the zone does respawn, the groups can evac back to the entrance and run you through quick.Rez - Dirges, Pally, 4 Healers not in the MT group. I think that covers rez. Oh and everyone can rez if you have a signet.Necro's Health Transfer - Don't need, we have potions, healers and other healing items.So as far as utility goes, there a much better alternatives unfortunately. I would like to play my conjy again but not when they aren't really good at anything except for... mediocre dps?

agnott

01-14-2009, 02:13 PM

For 7 months from launch we had 1 working pet. I just started playing again and I don't think this class will ever be worse that those 7 months.I look at this class like a stock. You buy it when it's cheap. I feel better about playing a class that is on the verge of being fixed than a class that's on the verge of being nerfed.But like a stock, there is no guarantee of anything.

Cicadi

01-14-2009, 03:29 PM

All the points I was going to make have been made.All those arguing that summoners have any utility beyond fluff (coth? shards? come on!) are simply deluded or have no idea about basic game mechanics.Our DPS is not as bad in TSO as in RoK but chanters of equal skill and gear level will easily match our DPS while bringing a metic asston more utilty to the raid. A well played sorcerer will destroy us on the parse whilst STILL bringing more utility (icelash/proprogation is about a million times more useful than anything either summoner brings)

Huntress Jellica

01-14-2009, 03:38 PM

This is true. Other classes DO have more/better utility than summoners. But to say summoners have no utility whatsoever is false.I would love to see summoners tweaked and brought back in to line with the other mage DPS classes. Whether that's through more utility, better nukes, or whatever. Like I said, I play one, too. But to all those people saying that summoners are garbage, and not worth a slot on a raid, it's just not true, sorry.

Brigh

01-14-2009, 03:48 PM

Elemental Vestment should have added to it a group (although smaller than given to the pet and you) component.

Cicadi

01-14-2009, 03:49 PM

This is true. Other classes DO have more/better utility than summoners. But to say summoners have no utility whatsoever is false.I would love to see summoners tweaked and brought back in to line with the other mage DPS classes. Whether that's through more utility, better nukes, or whatever. Like I said, I play one, too. But to all those people saying that summoners are garbage, and not worth a slot on a raid, it's just not true, sorry. Pretend you are a raid leader. Someone hasn't shown up for a progression raid and you need to fill the spot. You have a choice of any dps class to fill the raid. Please explain to me in what sitiuation you would pick a summoner.

hellfire

01-14-2009, 04:17 PM

<cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pretend you are a raid leader. Someone hasn't shown up for a progression raid and you need to fill the spot. You have a choice of any dps class to fill the raid. Please explain to me in what sitiuation you would pick a summoner.</blockquote>This is easy....there is no situation to pick a summoner over any other class.

Huntress Jellica

01-14-2009, 04:21 PM

Well, first off.. I'm not a raid leader. It's hard to pretend that I know every encounter, every zone, or that I've read up on endless strategies, etc. Besides, what classes do we have already? Where are we going?My guild has a conjuror and a wizard, both with their mythical. The conjuror regularly matches (occasionally beating or getting beat by) the wizard, in a similar (or same) group setup. I can already tell this is where everyone will say "Dubbleyew-tee-eff your wizard must really suxx0rz!" Well, no.. He doesn't. He's plenty good at what he does. But so is our conjuror. It's not all about pure numbers, it's also about knowledge of your class, and your dedication to your guild/raid. Not everyone needs to throw up a 7, 10, 12k parse in order to beat a zone. As long as it gets the job done, THAT is what's important.Even if I had the job description, I don't think I would be a very good raid leader. I KNOW what classes should go where, what benefits who, and who gets a bigger benefit from it, for the most part. But to ask someone to sit out just because of the class they enjoy playing just isn't my cup of tea. You guys can keep your elitist look on things, thanks.Peace out.

Thunndar316

01-14-2009, 04:22 PM

I feel sorry for Necros and Conjys. I have never thought to myself, "This group needs a Summoner!"Sad but they are almost useless.

Cicadi

01-14-2009, 04:32 PM

Yes, further to my earlier point and since you are not a raid leader: pretend you are forming a group. You have one spot to fill and a choice of any dps class. Please explain to me in what situation you would pick a summoner.

Thunndar316

01-14-2009, 04:34 PM

agnott

01-14-2009, 04:36 PM

Thunndar316

01-14-2009, 04:41 PM

Seriously though it would help a lot if they gave Summoner pets a flippin break on the AoE's. Can't count how many times I have seen these poor players have their pets 1 shotted right after their summoned. In Heroic content even.What's the flippin point of having a pet that can't take a single AoE?

Huntress Jellica

01-14-2009, 04:52 PM

<cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, further to my earlier point and since you are not a raid leader: pretend you are forming a group. You have one spot to fill and a choice of any dps class. Please explain to me in what situation you would pick a summoner.</blockquote>You guys are making it really hard for me to work today.. =PIf I'm forming a group and I need to fill one spot, and it's out of guild.. As long is it not a tank or healer (unless we already have one) I'll take whatever we can get. I will NOT group with out of guild tanks unless I know them personally. I have had too many bad experiences, and don't want to repeat them.. Same with healers.Grouping isn't nearly as hard as or involved as raiding. Even some of the new TSO zones are a cake walk as soon as you know the strategy. If a conjuror or necromancer wants to come, then that's perfectly fine with me. If we're heavy on mage dps, I might prefer a scout, but the same is true in the opposite situation. Pretty much the only class I would prefer over a summoner is an enchanter, for mezzes.. that's it. And if no enchanters are available, you bet your sweet booty I'd take a conjuror or necro along if they asked to join.I'm not sure where you got the impression that I was saying summoners are perfectly fine and the best DPS class out there, because I'm NOT. I knooooow they need some love and attention. The thing is, they used to be cream of the crop, and wizards used to suck. Now it's reversed.. well it will be again, because everything is constantly changing. And with these new fighter changes looming on the horizon, I would be willing to bet summoners are going to become a lot more popular, especially for grouping. Their aggro management is 10x better than a sorceror. Sure, sorcerors get more deaggros, but all of their hate goes to THEM, whereas a summoner's is split in half.Anyway, I have to stop paying attention to these boards.. bills to pay, and all. Have fun telling me I'm wrong, or putting down my opinion. I'm just saying what I've seen in my own personal experience. In short - Yes, summoners need a boost (especially in the pet gear/damage across all teirs), but no, they are not worthless.

Cicadi

01-14-2009, 04:58 PM

I understand what you're saying and I respect your opinion, but the unfortunate truth is that cold hard facts of game mechanics mean that summoners are always the worst choice for a non-tank/healer spot in groups and raids.Edit - interesting point about the split hate post gu51. We shall have to see if this has a noticeable effect. Even if it does, though, we still need more utility than currently (ie more than practically zero)

Yimway

01-14-2009, 05:06 PM

<cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pretend you are a raid leader. Someone hasn't shown up for a progression raid and you need to fill the spot. You have a choice of any dps class to fill the raid. Please explain to me in what sitiuation you would pick a summoner.</blockquote>I'll invite the necro to click a statue for druusk, though given the choice, I'd assume have a troub do it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

hellfire

01-14-2009, 05:32 PM

<cite>Huntress Jellica wrote:</cite><blockquote>My guild has a conjuror and a wizard, both with their mythical. The conjuror regularly matches (occasionally beating or getting beat by) the wizard, in a similar (or same) group setup. I can already tell this is where everyone will say "Dubbleyew-tee-eff your wizard must really suxx0rz!" Well, no.. He doesn't. He's plenty good at what he does. But so is our conjuror. It's not all about pure numbers, it's also about knowledge of your class, and your dedication to your guild/raid. Not everyone needs to throw up a 7, 10, 12k parse in order to beat a zone. As long as it gets the job done, THAT is what's important.</blockquote>And this is where some one that doesnt know what he is talking about will get the ear of the masses.You are wrong cause it is all about dps...dps measures your understanding of your class and can adapt to the situation and still provide max performance from your charactor......and know what encounters are designed that way.In end game encounters such as avatars you need as much dps as possible or the raid will get failure effects fail....so yes everyone needs to throw up as much dps as possible...and well all things being equall summoners are not on same playing field.And your wizard needs to ramp it up because when all things are equall unless 3+ mob encounter he shouldnt be getting beat by conj....ever.Oh and a summoners hate is not split in half...silly people.

StaticLex

01-14-2009, 05:53 PM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seriously though it would help a lot if they gave Summoner pets a flippin break on the AoE's. Can't count how many times I have seen these poor players have their pets 1 shotted right after their summoned. In Heroic content even.What's the flippin point of having a pet that can't take a single AoE?</blockquote>EXACTLY.What nobody seems to realize, especially the clowns at soe is that not only is this a cloth class who dies easier than anyone else, but the pet is a massive liability that no other class has to work with. If I am going to play a squishy caster AND have greater than half my DPS die to any stupid AE.. I better be doing some ridiculous damage when it is alive OR be bringing some insane utility to a group/raid. Neither of these is the case.Anyway, the "utility" of this class that some of you speak of leads me to think you are talking out your butt. Shards return like 300 power a minute at Adept 3/level 80. That's like 1 or 2 heals or nukes. Do you realize how utterly stupid/waste that is?COH? lol Sure.. it's handy once or twice a month.Summon EB Stone? Woooooooooooooot! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />Arcane Cure/Dispel/Invis? Oh wait, all mages have these.I would list more of our famous "utility" but even this puny list is a stretch. The bottom line is this class brings nothing to a group/raid except mediocre DPS at best. I don't really care what soe does to fix it as long as it makes the class as desirable as any other class when it comes to filling slots.

DCarnage2

01-14-2009, 06:14 PM

While playing on an alt, I saw a conjy LFG here's a clip from my log.[Sat Jan 10 01:30:06 2009] aPC -1 Xxxx:Xxxx/a tells Level_1-9 (1), "Completely [Removed for Content] looking 80 conj who may or may not be willing to perform fellatio to get into a group is lfg =D"[Sat Jan 10 01:30:48 2009] You tell Level_1-9 (1), "wow, is that what it takes to get a group with a conjy now?"kinda sad when you have to offer sexual favors to get a group as a conjy lol

Aule

01-14-2009, 08:04 PM

Coming from someone who leads pickup groups on a very frequent basis, I generally will only take a summoner if I need a 6th level 80 char to prevent the zone from scaling and I'm confident the rest of the group can complete the zone regardless of how bad the summoner is. Unfortunately, I know exactly 2 summoner's who do any good, one is a conjy and the other a necro. Your normal run-of-the-mill PUG summoner frequently fails to clear 1k dps. It's disappointing.

Wingrider01

01-14-2009, 08:04 PM

<cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Summoners are currently doing more damage then any mage, aside from perhaps Wizards. They can Rez, CoH, Power Feed, Cast Hearts/Shards(Which yes, people still use). On top of that, FD. Beyond all that, they split hate with the pet making them some of the lowest hate generating DPS classes in the game. Sounds like quite a few reasons to me.2. That gear is making your class very powerful at the moment. And it's easily available.3. Because you don't need any more damage then you already have. The goal isn't to overpower you.4. Your not the only one with bad swarm pets.5. Why play a Warlock? We have even less. Why play a brusier? Why play a Monk? What's the benefit of playing an Inquisitor? Join the club.</blockquote>@1 You failed to adress the point summoners do significant lower dps then sorcs/preds and only comparable dps to rogue and a little bit over chanters WHILE BRINGING NOTHING TO THE RAID AT ALL! all other classes bring either more dps, more utility or simply booth !Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?@2 While weaking the caster ... you are better of for overal dps if you only use some selected pieces !@3 Without utility and only supbar dps why take a summoner over another class ? there is no logical reason given equal gear/skill players of another mentioned class sitting !@4 but summoner got the most swarmpet out of all classes conj have 3 out of 11 damage spells. these are 3 spells besides all otehr issues with swarm pets which could not be improved by gear at all ! i call this bad design !</blockquote>Ok, I stopped reading at the bolded point, not sure what you are raiding but that is flat wrong, all of those can be and are used in raids, cast hearts and shards almost constantly in a raid

hellfire

01-14-2009, 08:14 PM

<cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Summoners are currently doing more damage then any mage, aside from perhaps Wizards. They can Rez, CoH, Power Feed, Cast Hearts/Shards(Which yes, people still use). On top of that, FD. Beyond all that, they split hate with the pet making them some of the lowest hate generating DPS classes in the game. Sounds like quite a few reasons to me.2. That gear is making your class very powerful at the moment. And it's easily available.3. Because you don't need any more damage then you already have. The goal isn't to overpower you.4. Your not the only one with bad swarm pets.5. Why play a Warlock? We have even less. Why play a brusier? Why play a Monk? What's the benefit of playing an Inquisitor? Join the club.</blockquote>@1 You failed to adress the point summoners do significant lower dps then sorcs/preds and only comparable dps to rogue and a little bit over chanters WHILE BRINGING NOTHING TO THE RAID AT ALL! all other classes bring either more dps, more utility or simply booth !Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?@2 While weaking the caster ... you are better of for overal dps if you only use some selected pieces !@3 Without utility and only supbar dps why take a summoner over another class ? there is no logical reason given equal gear/skill players of another mentioned class sitting !@4 but summoner got the most swarmpet out of all classes conj have 3 out of 11 damage spells. these are 3 spells besides all otehr issues with swarm pets which could not be improved by gear at all ! i call this bad design !</blockquote>Ok, I stopped reading at the bolded point, not sure what you are raiding but that is flat wrong, all of those can be and are used in raids, cast hearts and shards almost constantly in a raid</blockquote>Not at end game...they are just not needed.....or used.

Noaani

01-14-2009, 08:16 PM

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pretend you are a raid leader. Someone hasn't shown up for a progression raid and you need to fill the spot. You have a choice of any dps class to fill the raid. Please explain to me in what sitiuation you would pick a summoner.</blockquote>This is easy....there is no situation to pick a summoner over any other class.</blockquote>I still say the best answer is to have summoners summon a variety of temporary adornments.

hellfire

01-14-2009, 08:18 PM

Aule

01-14-2009, 08:22 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pretend you are a raid leader. Someone hasn't shown up for a progression raid and you need to fill the spot. You have a choice of any dps class to fill the raid. Please explain to me in what sitiuation you would pick a summoner.</blockquote>This is easy....there is no situation to pick a summoner over any other class.</blockquote>I still say the best answer is to have summoners summon a variety of temporary adornments.</blockquote>You'd have to include a mechanic that requires that summoner to be in the group/raid for the temporary adornment to be worthwhile. Otherwise you'd just have someone bring in the summoner to summon them and then camp over to their real character.And referencing end game necessity of summoners, there is none. The utility that they bring is helpful to the casual/family raid environment, not for upper tier current content guilds. Over the last 6 mo's or so I have seen all but 1 summoner that I used to know either quit the class to main a different one (usually an enchanter) or quit the game entirely.

StaticLex

01-14-2009, 11:02 PM

You'd have to include a mechanic that requires that summoner to be in the group/raid for the temporary adornment to be worthwhile.They have this already, they're called../drumrollBuffs!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" />

thog_zork

01-15-2009, 09:03 AM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>And referencing end game necessity of summoners, there is none. The utility that they bring is helpful to the casual/family raid environment, not for upper tier current content guilds. Over the last 6 mo's or so I have seen all but 1 summoner that I used to know either quit the class to main a different one (usually an enchanter) or quit the game entirely.</blockquote>and by "upper tier current content guilds" you mean those guilds or forces which raid more then one day a week ! Not some mege hardcore forces! and this is a problem which need immediatly attention !The summoner population is quickly dying out !I also would preffer a solution like raid wide castable singel target buffs ! or something like this what chanters already got !

feldon30

01-15-2009, 11:20 AM

thog_zork

01-15-2009, 11:37 AM

Not one of this abilities is a form of utility even a helf-decent raid or group would ever need !please do not say otherwise when all it is are fluff spells which no raid/group desirability at all !

Windowlicker

01-15-2009, 11:46 AM

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Summoners are currently doing more damage then any mage, aside from perhaps Wizards. They can Rez, CoH, Power Feed, Cast Hearts/Shards(Which yes, people still use). On top of that, FD. Beyond all that, they split hate with the pet making them some of the lowest hate generating DPS classes in the game. Sounds like quite a few reasons to me.2. That gear is making your class very powerful at the moment. And it's easily available.3. Because you don't need any more damage then you already have. The goal isn't to overpower you.4. Your not the only one with bad swarm pets.5. Why play a Warlock? We have even less. Why play a brusier? Why play a Monk? What's the benefit of playing an Inquisitor? Join the club.</blockquote>@1 You failed to adress the point summoners do significant lower dps then sorcs/preds and only comparable dps to rogue and a little bit over chanters WHILE BRINGING NOTHING TO THE RAID AT ALL! all other classes bring either more dps, more utility or simply booth !Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?@2 While weaking the caster ... you are better of for overal dps if you only use some selected pieces !@3 Without utility and only supbar dps why take a summoner over another class ? there is no logical reason given equal gear/skill players of another mentioned class sitting !@4 but summoner got the most swarmpet out of all classes conj have 3 out of 11 damage spells. these are 3 spells besides all otehr issues with swarm pets which could not be improved by gear at all ! i call this bad design !</blockquote>Ok, I stopped reading at the bolded point, not sure what you are raiding but that is flat wrong, all of those can be and are used in raids, cast hearts and shards almost constantly in a raid</blockquote>Not at end game...they are just not needed.....or used.</blockquote>You don't think CoH is used? FD isn't used? Maybe you think REZ isn't used? You should probably send half our raidforce a note letting them know they really don't need those hearts and shards they keep asking for.Perhaps you think two classes that do more damage then any mage currently aren't useful. Especially when they split hate between the caster and pet.Seriously this is beyond blown out of proportion. The summoner class is neither broken, nor in as bad shape as people let on. Especially when I see our parses from our raidforce full of toons in raidgear wielding mythicals being lead by two summoners on every single pull.

Ruut Li

01-15-2009, 11:53 AM

You are welcome to try again if SOE fixes your robe.Summoner with myth and t2 robe? Mmm yummy! So op! /invite

thog_zork

01-15-2009, 12:01 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't think CoH is used? FD isn't used? Maybe you think REZ isn't used? You should probably send half our raidforce a note letting them know they really don't need those hearts and shards they keep asking for.Perhaps you think two classes that do more damage then any mage currently aren't useful. Especially when they split hate between the caster and pet.Seriously this is beyond blown out of proportion. The summoner class is neither broken, nor in as bad shape as people let on. Especially when I see our parses from our raidforce full of toons in raidgear wielding mythicals being lead by two summoners on every single pull.</blockquote>COTH is a fluff spell easily replaced by tinkering so is FD all it does is nothing beside saving some time !come on for what are 2-3 dirges in the raid ... beside usually not that uch people die anyway !And im serious on this get new DD's if summoners are leading the parse while having the same group/gear level as other dds! You other dds must either have not the same level of gear or bad group if this happens or they are simply not good !your claims are ridiculous go over to the class parse threads on the flame message board and look up some parses from other classes !And i think everyone besides you seems to aggree that summoners of course do less damage then sorcs/pred&co !It is the problem with big fishes in small ponds you see it and think everything it fine while it is clearly not ! And everyone who raids only in half a decent force with equal geared/skilled and focused players see this problem so clear !

Cele

01-15-2009, 12:34 PM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I feel sorry for Necros and Conjys. I have never thought to myself, "This group needs a Summoner!"Sad but they are almost useless.</blockquote>*pout* no shards for you!!

thog_zork

01-15-2009, 12:53 PM

<cite>Celena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I feel sorry for Necros and Conjys. I have never thought to myself, "This group needs a Summoner!"Sad but they are almost useless.</blockquote>*pout* no shards for you!!</blockquote>what a "harsh" punishment ...

Noaani

01-15-2009, 01:04 PM

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pretend you are a raid leader. Someone hasn't shown up for a progression raid and you need to fill the spot. You have a choice of any dps class to fill the raid. Please explain to me in what sitiuation you would pick a summoner.</blockquote>This is easy....there is no situation to pick a summoner over any other class.</blockquote>I still say the best answer is to have summoners summon a variety of temporary adornments.</blockquote>Awesome ...then can summon then like a vender machine while the raid forms up.</blockquote>Or you just make them with a 30 minute duration, tagged as lore, and summoned in the same maner as Crystal Gift.

thog_zork

01-15-2009, 01:08 PM

cool .... bring in a summoner each thirty minutes casting this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> or if this is singel target welcome to the world of the chanters in t5 !casting/refreshing a singel target spell on 24 person is so much fun ! please NO !make buffs which usefull effects and let them have a concetration cost and made them riad wide castable !

hellfire

01-15-2009, 01:27 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pretend you are a raid leader. Someone hasn't shown up for a progression raid and you need to fill the spot. You have a choice of any dps class to fill the raid. Please explain to me in what sitiuation you would pick a summoner.</blockquote>This is easy....there is no situation to pick a summoner over any other class.</blockquote>I still say the best answer is to have summoners summon a variety of temporary adornments.</blockquote>Awesome ...then can summon then like a vender machine while the raid forms up.</blockquote>Or you just make them with a 30 minute duration, tagged as lore, and summoned in the same maner as Crystal Gift.</blockquote>lmfao awesome then we can be like the mender bot that can be pulled into raid every 30 mins..........its a stupid idea imo.

hellfire

01-15-2009, 01:40 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Summoners are currently doing more damage then any mage, aside from perhaps Wizards. They can Rez, CoH, Power Feed, Cast Hearts/Shards(Which yes, people still use). On top of that, FD. Beyond all that, they split hate with the pet making them some of the lowest hate generating DPS classes in the game. Sounds like quite a few reasons to me.2. That gear is making your class very powerful at the moment. And it's easily available.3. Because you don't need any more damage then you already have. The goal isn't to overpower you.4. Your not the only one with bad swarm pets.5. Why play a Warlock? We have even less. Why play a brusier? Why play a Monk? What's the benefit of playing an Inquisitor? Join the club.</blockquote>@1 You failed to adress the point summoners do significant lower dps then sorcs/preds and only comparable dps to rogue and a little bit over chanters WHILE BRINGING NOTHING TO THE RAID AT ALL! all other classes bring either more dps, more utility or simply booth !Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?@2 While weaking the caster ... you are better of for overal dps if you only use some selected pieces !@3 Without utility and only supbar dps why take a summoner over another class ? there is no logical reason given equal gear/skill players of another mentioned class sitting !@4 but summoner got the most swarmpet out of all classes conj have 3 out of 11 damage spells. these are 3 spells besides all otehr issues with swarm pets which could not be improved by gear at all ! i call this bad design !</blockquote>Ok, I stopped reading at the bolded point, not sure what you are raiding but that is flat wrong, all of those can be and are used in raids, cast hearts and shards almost constantly in a raid</blockquote>Not at end game...they are just not needed.....or used.</blockquote>You don't think CoH is used? FD isn't used? Maybe you think REZ isn't used? You should probably send half our raidforce a note letting them know they really don't need those hearts and shards they keep asking for.Perhaps you think two classes that do more damage then any mage currently aren't useful. Especially when they split hate between the caster and pet.Seriously this is beyond blown out of proportion. The summoner class is neither broken, nor in as bad shape as people let on. Especially when I see our parses from our raidforce full of toons in raidgear wielding mythicals being lead by two summoners on every single pull.</blockquote>Everyone can have coh.Everyone can have FDDirges are your rezers and they actually have great raid enhanceing buffs as well as debuffs.Summoners do not do more dps then wizards/warlock.....chanters can do more dps then summoners to depending on fight with boatload more utility.........Hence the reason why end game guilds will want 4-5 bards and 4-5 chanters....but dont want summoners....o wait we do more dps then any other mge ...t6hats the most ridculous thing i have read on this forum period.....just stop with this makeing my side hurt to much from laughingYour raid force is scrubs then imo...because summoners never lead the parse.Oh wait they useing the broken robe that procs on swarm pets and even tinkered pets.This is far from blown out of proportion ...its just you are very uninformedWhen i can parse 12k on a single target which is preety good but the assasin 17kRanger/wizard 15kchanter/warlock 13kThen thats a serious problem.

feldon30

01-15-2009, 02:18 PM

<cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote>COTH is a fluff spell easily replaced by tinkering</blockquote>The fact that you don't know the difference between Call of the Hero and Call of the Tinkerer tells me you have absolutely no clue about Summoners.

Kendricke

01-15-2009, 02:23 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote>COTH is a fluff spell easily replaced by tinkering</blockquote>The fact that you don't know the difference between Call of the Hero and Call of the Tinkerer tells me you have absolutely no clue about Summoners.</blockquote>Call of the Hero: A teleports B to A. Call of the Tinkerer: B teleports to A. Either way, B gets to A.

Windowlicker

01-15-2009, 02:30 PM

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everyone can have coh.Everyone can have FDDirges are your rezers and they actually have great raid enhanceing buffs as well as debuffs.Summoners do not do more dps then wizards/warlock.....chanters can do more dps then summoners to depending on fight with boatload more utility.........Hence the reason why end game guilds will want 4-5 bards and 4-5 chanters....but dont want summoners....o wait we do more dps then any other mge ...t6hats the most ridculous thing i have read on this forum period.....just stop with this makeing my side hurt to much from laughingYour raid force is scrubs then imo...because summoners never lead the parse.Oh wait they useing the broken robe that procs on swarm pets and even tinkered pets.This is far from blown out of proportion ...its just you are very uninformedWhen i can parse 12k on a single target which is preety good but the assasin 17kRanger/wizard 15kchanter/warlock 13kThen thats a serious problem.</blockquote>1. Calling people "Scrubs" because they don't agree with you is not only ignorant, but meaningless to the discussion. It only serves to discredit you.2. Let's expand your "Everyone can have" comment to, "Everyone that levels up to level 80 tinkering, and hasn't become a transmuter can have much worse variations on *some* not all of those abilities". That is accurate. What you said is not only inaccurate, but misleading.3. We use both types of summoners, and even have backups in our roster if they aren't available. I guess that blows your "totally unwanted" argument out of the water. Just because *your* raidforce excludes you, is no indication that everyone is doing the same. 4. Your DPS levels are not only unrealistic, but impossible. I'd like you to show me a Warlock parsing 13k single target on regular pulls. On that note, I'd like you to show me any of those classes sustaining that damage on a pull to pull basis. It's not about what a class can do once in a blue moon, it's about the ZW. Just because a class is capable of ripping off a huge parse on one encounter in an entire zone, is no indication of how balanced or unbalanced they are.5. If your chanters are doing more damage then you are, you need to L2P in a huge way.

hellfire

01-15-2009, 02:44 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everyone can have coh.Everyone can have FDDirges are your rezers and they actually have great raid enhanceing buffs as well as debuffs.Summoners do not do more dps then wizards/warlock.....chanters can do more dps then summoners to depending on fight with boatload more utility.........Hence the reason why end game guilds will want 4-5 bards and 4-5 chanters....but dont want summoners....o wait we do more dps then any other mge ...t6hats the most ridculous thing i have read on this forum period.....just stop with this makeing my side hurt to much from laughingYour raid force is scrubs then imo...because summoners never lead the parse.Oh wait they useing the broken robe that procs on swarm pets and even tinkered pets.This is far from blown out of proportion ...its just you are very uninformedWhen i can parse 12k on a single target which is preety good but the assasin 17kRanger/wizard 15kchanter/warlock 13kThen thats a serious problem.</blockquote>1. Calling people "Scrubs" because they don't agree with you is not only ignorant, but meaningless to the discussion. It only serves to discredit you.2. Let's expand your "Everyone can have" comment to, "Everyone that levels up to level 80 tinkering, and hasn't become a transmuter can have much worse variations on *some* not all of those abilities". That is accurate. What you said is not only inaccurate, but misleading.3. We use both types of summoners, and even have backups in our roster if they aren't available. I guess that blows your "totally unwanted" argument out of the water. Just because *your* raidforce excludes you, is no indication that everyone is doing the same. 4. Your DPS levels are not only unrealistic, but impossible. I'd like you to show me a Warlock parsing 13k single target on regular pulls. On that note, I'd like you to show me any of those classes sustaining that damage on a pull to pull basis. It's not about what a class can do once in a blue moon, it's about the ZW. Just because a class is capable of ripping off a huge parse on one encounter in an entire zone, is no indication of how balanced or unbalanced they are.5. If your chanters are doing more damage then you are, you need to L2P in a huge way.</blockquote>1: Nope im not calling you scrub because i dont agree with you...im calling you scrubs because you are not killing the very end content of progression and fail to see the effects of the extreme end game where the curve is extremely ahead of summoners.....you dont see it.2: Not misleading anyone can do it if they want also add in raid flags, loN items, items from quest as well as item drops and im sure soon SC items and more crafted items in future.Nothing misleading at all about it.3:Sorry i dont get excluded.....but i know im very replaceable ...if i was putting together a raid summoners wouldnt be included.4:Hi this is well known by any end game guild and parses are out thier.5: This is also known where because of gear and the nature of the chanter class they can and will put out extreme burst dps.And as i said in point number 1 you do not kill very end game content and your raid is not built to extremes and have no way of seeing any of this.

hellfire

01-15-2009, 02:53 PM

And wow L2P your a warlock...you shouldnt be loseing on the parse to summoners [Removed for Content]....... so L2P as you would say

montor

01-15-2009, 03:01 PM

Why Play either Summoner Class?Because I like the class although it has it's flaws what class does'nt.I play to have fun not stress out over tech aspects of my class and since I changed jobs I have a lot more time to play and have been raiding.My guild has no problems taking either summoner into a raid we like to let all players get involved.Some of the so called hardcore raiders need to step back and get an attitude adjustment argueing about petty crap like this is just stupid.<div><a class="icon_reply_sm" rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/insert.m?topicId=440950&forumId=2586&start=60"><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/transp.gif" /></a> <a class="icon_quote" rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/quote.m?postId=4915266&start=60"><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/transp.gif" /></a> <a class="nav" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/#top"><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/styles/EQ2/eq2_default/images/common/icon_up.gif" /></a></div>

Yimway

01-15-2009, 04:17 PM

<cite>Darkwind@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some of the so called hardcore raiders need to step back and get an attitude adjustment argueing about petty crap like this is just stupid.<div><a class="icon_reply_sm" rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/insert.m?topicId=440950&forumId=2586&start=60"><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/transp.gif" /></a> <a class="icon_quote" rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/quote.m?postId=4915266&start=60"><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/transp.gif" /></a> <a class="nav" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/#top"><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/styles/EQ2/eq2_default/images/common/icon_up.gif" /></a></div></blockquote>I understand you might find the greavances of most sumoners 'petty' and 'stupid', however that doesn't change the fact that summoners are not desired in either group or raid play.Because some guilds let them tag along, doesn't mean the class isn't fundamentally broken. There was a time we all wanted this archtype on a raid, back before gear buffed skill stats (spell damage, crit, etc) so massively, the summoner pet was on a relatively even playing field with pure caster types.Gear has expanded grossly since them, and every player gets benefit from it, but the summoner class whose dps is largely made up of the pet contribution do not get those modifiers applied to the pet.This is a fundamental deficiency in the game design. It could be IMMEDIATELY remedied if the pet was changed tomorrow to inherit the spell damage and spell crit modifiers of it's owner. Until then, the class is broken, and it will not appear on our list of classes we are accepting applications for.

Tinrae

01-15-2009, 04:22 PM

I don't play a summoner myself. My boyfriend does, and we duo together quite a bit. We don't raid, so this is just a really casual player's observations from working with one almost constantly.I play a coercer, he's a necro. We have the same level of gear (MC + RoK quest reward junk) and spell quality (all ad3's that he makes since he's a sage). I'm a level ahead of him, but number of AA's are fairly close. He's far more meticulous about his spells and abilities than I am, and understands his class' strengths and limitations very well.For us, his hearts aren't needed (I have all the mana regen we need, and then some). The FD has been useful a couple times, but with my mez/stuns it's not needed usually. The water-breathing stone is never used. The spot heal has been handy occasionally. Sadly, the tank pet never keeps aggro even with my hate transfer on it. I consistently top his damage despite all things being roughly equal, though his mage-pet build comes close.I'm happy enough to group with his necro, but I absolutely support any beneficial tweaking of the summoners! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />

StaticLex

01-15-2009, 04:31 PM

Man this is beyond annoying when people waltz through here and go "Oh my guild includes summoners in everything we do, they are just fine !".Look around, eh?! In the level chat you see groups spamming for scout/melee DPS exclusively. THIS is more indiciative of the status of summoners (and even wiz/war), NOT what goes on inside your feel-good little guild. This should be a massive red flag to soe when PUGs are basically blackballing 2 classes, ugh.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" />

montor

01-15-2009, 05:29 PM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote>Man this is beyond annoying when people waltz through here and go "Oh my guild includes summoners in everything we do, they are just fine !".Look around, eh?! In the level chat you see groups spamming for scout/melee DPS exclusively. THIS is more indiciative of the status of summoners (and even wiz/war), NOT what goes on inside your feel-good little guild. This should be a massive red flag to soe when PUGs are basically blackballing 2 classes, ugh.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Ok my point was we include the PEOPLE who the hell cares what class they play to US the important part is that the players be included.I know the downfalls on both summoners I have played both soloing,grouping and raiding and have an 80 necro as well as a 80 conjy I'm not new to raids.I rarely watch chat anymore I grow tired of all the stupidness and really I could careless about someone elses opinion about any class.I would suggest to all the know it alls that maybe you should seek employment with soe and then fix the class problems instead of ranting about it.

Cicadi

01-15-2009, 05:37 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everyone can have coh.Everyone can have FDDirges are your rezers and they actually have great raid enhanceing buffs as well as debuffs.Summoners do not do more dps then wizards/warlock.....chanters can do more dps then summoners to depending on fight with boatload more utility.........Hence the reason why end game guilds will want 4-5 bards and 4-5 chanters....but dont want summoners....o wait we do more dps then any other mge ...t6hats the most ridculous thing i have read on this forum period.....just stop with this makeing my side hurt to much from laughingYour raid force is scrubs then imo...because summoners never lead the parse.Oh wait they useing the broken robe that procs on swarm pets and even tinkered pets.This is far from blown out of proportion ...its just you are very uninformedWhen i can parse 12k on a single target which is preety good but the assasin 17kRanger/wizard 15kchanter/warlock 13kThen thats a serious problem.</blockquote>1. Calling people "Scrubs" because they don't agree with you is not only ignorant, but meaningless to the discussion. It only serves to discredit you.2. Let's expand your "Everyone can have" comment to, "Everyone that levels up to level 80 tinkering, and hasn't become a transmuter can have much worse variations on *some* not all of those abilities". That is accurate. What you said is not only inaccurate, but misleading.3. We use both types of summoners, and even have backups in our roster if they aren't available. I guess that blows your "totally unwanted" argument out of the water. Just because *your* raidforce excludes you, is no indication that everyone is doing the same. 4. Your DPS levels are not only unrealistic, but impossible. I'd like you to show me a Warlock parsing 13k single target on regular pulls. On that note, I'd like you to show me any of those classes sustaining that damage on a pull to pull basis. It's not about what a class can do once in a blue moon, it's about the ZW. Just because a class is capable of ripping off a huge parse on one encounter in an entire zone, is no indication of how balanced or unbalanced they are.5. If your chanters are doing more damage then you are, you need to L2P in a huge way.</blockquote>I am going to put the same question to you as I did to jellica:Given the choice, in what situation would you pick a summoner over any other equally skilled and geared dps/utility class for either a raid or a heroic group?When you arrive at your answer you will understand why we need help.

DCarnage2

01-15-2009, 05:53 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite> <blockquote>I understand you might find the greavances of most sumoners 'petty' and 'stupid', however that doesn't change the fact that summoners are not desired in either group or raid play.Because some guilds let them tag along, doesn't mean the class isn't fundamentally broken. There was a time we all wanted this archtype on a raid, back before gear buffed skill stats (spell damage, crit, etc) so massively, the summoner pet was on a relatively even playing field with pure caster types.Gear has expanded grossly since them, and every player gets benefit from it, but the summoner class whose dps is largely made up of the pet contribution do not get those modifiers applied to the pet.This is a fundamental deficiency in the game design. It could be IMMEDIATELY remedied if the pet was changed tomorrow to inherit the spell damage and spell crit modifiers of it's owner. Until then, the class is broken, and it will not appear on our list of classes we are accepting applications for.</blockquote>Ding Ding Ding, we have a winnner! This is exactly what the problem is... although some better utility would be nice to have as well.

Compas

01-15-2009, 05:56 PM

Still my initial questiosn haven't realisitcally been answered only squabled over by the community at large. There is a large groups that says well your class blows; too bad maybe some day you might be useful, then another groups that says we will include you because we don't care that your class abilities and effectiveness are inefficient, and really just dead weight to their group/ raid but they like you anyway.... kind of like winning the special olympics of class design and balence........The last group is the one that baffles me the most, saying ( and in some cases beliveing) that the summoner classes are fine and are useful in groups and on raids as well as perform all these wonderful functions. For this group of players If you are brining a class for utiltiy why not bring an enchanter they can parse jsut as high and provide mroe support for a group/raid, if your looking for dps goodness knows a sorcerer or a preditor jsut blows the summoner out of the water and also accidentally fell down hit their head and woke up with the ability to provide possibly a useful buff here or there.The object of a game is to win, in the case of EQ2 their is no "win" per'say but instead we compair ourselves to the the top and highest end of the current contents progression; Using expired content to say a class, item or ability if balanced or over/underpowered is just a waste of time, ROK is old news what does your classes progresion and balencing in TSO look like ,that is really all that matters anything else is well I won't repeat myself.So when you are done seeing 80 Necro LFG or 80 Conj LFG, after you stop laughing then asking if they have any alts please remember, for 10 silver a day you can adopt one of these poor forgotten summoners, help them earn enough plat so they can buy their way into groups and raids, do your part and help these unfortuante souls. Thank youCompas / Anjez80 Necromancer (Retired) / 80 TroubadorUnrest

hellfire

01-15-2009, 06:21 PM

Until the gear problem is solved and it is still there.The more high end your guild play style is the more other classes will drive ahead...isnt hard to figure out.Add in the case of the top dps classes also bringing in raid enhanceibng utility the result is easy to see i believe the better you are the more you fall behind.Gear is Number one issue with class seperation and with classes in the same tier of play summoners still generally only recieve 60-70 pct max of gears effect.They may try to band aid it with summoner specific gear but that just doesnt work and wont work as i have said in the past.Even now the very best gear for summoner class still remains to be non summoner type gear and will still only recieve 60-70 pct of the benifit compared to other classes.Pets need to share modifiers ....imo this is easiest way to bring us in line and also easiest thing to tweak imo.Been saying this for over a year ....trying to fix broken class core issues with gear is one of worst things can do.

Yimway

01-15-2009, 06:30 PM

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Been saying this for over a year ....trying to fix broken class core issues with gear is one of worst things can do.</blockquote>Couldn't possibly agree more, and sadly this has been the dev response to date, "We know there is an issue, so we threw some items in RE2 and SoH for you to help address it".This of course is an epic fail in resolving the issue for a host of reasons. It is a 'cop-out' that simply didn't work.We allow a conji and necro to remain on our roster, only because they've been with us since the EoF days. The hope being that someday they will get fixed and stop being a mediocre class on the roster. However, if either player left game / guild we absolutely would not re-recruit a summoner until they are fixed.And to be honest, I don't believe SoE development staff intend to fix this anytime soon. The writing on the wall is its still tanks for atleast this GU and maybe into the following one, then it's going to be priests.I'll be shocked if anything is done towards fixing summoners within the next 6 months.

Huntress Jellica

01-15-2009, 06:47 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Been saying this for over a year ....trying to fix broken class core issues with gear is one of worst things can do.</blockquote>Couldn't possibly agree more, and sadly this has been the dev response to date, "We know there is an issue, so we threw some items in RE2 and SoH for you to help address it".This of course is an epic fail in resolving the issue for a host of reasons. It is a 'cop-out' that simply didn't work.We allow a conji and necro to remain on our roster, only because they've been with us since the EoF days. The hope being that someday they will get fixed and stop being a mediocre class on the roster. However, if either player left game / guild we absolutely would not re-recruit a summoner until they are fixed.And to be honest, I don't believe SoE development staff intend to fix this anytime soon. The writing on the wall is its still tanks for atleast this GU and maybe into the following one, then it's going to be priests.I'll be shocked if anything is done towards fixing summoners within the next 6 months.</blockquote>You know, I wanted to distance myself from this thread because the arguing gets on my nerves, but... wow.You ALLOW people--who I would imagine are FRIENDS based on the amount of time they've been there--to stay in the guild? Y'know, I knew there was a reason I hated hardcore raiding guilds, and I can only assume yours is one based on what you just said.Yes, EQ2 is a game and we're all here to try to "win" it. But that attitude.. that you're only letting the people stay in the guild because of their time in it, instead of because they're your friends, I will neeeeever understand. And why does it MATTER how many people are in your guild? If you have a dedicated raid force of 24 players, and that is crystal clear to everyone in the guild, why does it matter if there's a few extra people in the guild? Seriously? The status/guild leveling system is not like it used to be, where it was based on the number of characters in the guild../Sigh. I guess I will never understand the reasons that some guilds do the things they do. But I sure as heck am [Removed for Content] glad I'm not in your guild. Not that you would want me anyway, since I have a conjuror alt... HISS! Oh no, they aren't the FoTM class anymore, they might infect us with their "suxx0r-iness!" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Yimway

01-15-2009, 06:58 PM

<cite>Huntress Jellica wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know, I wanted to distance myself from this thread because the arguing gets on my nerves, but... wow.You ALLOW people--who I would imagine are FRIENDS based on the amount of time they've been there--to stay in the guild? Y'know, I knew there was a reason I hated hardcore raiding guilds, and I can only assume yours is one based on what you just said.Yes, EQ2 is a game and we're all here to try to "win" it. But that attitude.. that you're only letting the people stay in the guild because of their time in it, instead of because they're your friends, I will neeeeever understand. And why does it MATTER how many people are in your guild? If you have a dedicated raid force of 24 players, and that is crystal clear to everyone in the guild, why does it matter if there's a few extra people in the guild? Seriously? The status/guild leveling system is not like it used to be, where it was based on the number of characters in the guild../Sigh. I guess I will never understand the reasons that some guilds do the things they do. But I sure as heck am [Removed for Content] glad I'm not in your guild. Not that you would want me anyway, since I have a conjuror alt... HISS! Oh no, they aren't the FoTM class anymore, they might infect us with their "suxx0r-iness!" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I'm sorry, what did this have to do with this topic exactly?

Aule

01-15-2009, 06:58 PM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote>You'd have to include a mechanic that requires that summoner to be in the group/raid for the temporary adornment to be worthwhile.They have this already, they're called../drumrollBuffs!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>That note was in response to the temporary adornment comment. I'm not sure what kind of convoluted buff mechanic you'd need in order to have people get short term adornments that can be applied onto their gear but still shows a buff from the summoner.

Wingrider01

01-15-2009, 07:29 PM

<cite>hellfire wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Summoners are currently doing more damage then any mage, aside from perhaps Wizards. They can Rez, CoH, Power Feed, Cast Hearts/Shards(Which yes, people still use). On top of that, FD. Beyond all that, they split hate with the pet making them some of the lowest hate generating DPS classes in the game. Sounds like quite a few reasons to me.2. That gear is making your class very powerful at the moment. And it's easily available.3. Because you don't need any more damage then you already have. The goal isn't to overpower you.4. Your not the only one with bad swarm pets.5. Why play a Warlock? We have even less. Why play a brusier? Why play a Monk? What's the benefit of playing an Inquisitor? Join the club.</blockquote>@1 You failed to adress the point summoners do significant lower dps then sorcs/preds and only comparable dps to rogue and a little bit over chanters WHILE BRINGING NOTHING TO THE RAID AT ALL! all other classes bring either more dps, more utility or simply booth !Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?@2 While weaking the caster ... you are better of for overal dps if you only use some selected pieces !@3 Without utility and only supbar dps why take a summoner over another class ? there is no logical reason given equal gear/skill players of another mentioned class sitting !@4 but summoner got the most swarmpet out of all classes conj have 3 out of 11 damage spells. these are 3 spells besides all otehr issues with swarm pets which could not be improved by gear at all ! i call this bad design !</blockquote>Ok, I stopped reading at the bolded point, not sure what you are raiding but that is flat wrong, all of those can be and are used in raids, cast hearts and shards almost constantly in a raid</blockquote>Not at end game...they are just not needed.....or used.</blockquote>interesting comment....don't see the same thing but hey might be different raiding styles

hellfire

01-15-2009, 07:40 PM

<cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hellfire wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Summoners are currently doing more damage then any mage, aside from perhaps Wizards. They can Rez, CoH, Power Feed, Cast Hearts/Shards(Which yes, people still use). On top of that, FD. Beyond all that, they split hate with the pet making them some of the lowest hate generating DPS classes in the game. Sounds like quite a few reasons to me.2. That gear is making your class very powerful at the moment. And it's easily available.3. Because you don't need any more damage then you already have. The goal isn't to overpower you.4. Your not the only one with bad swarm pets.5. Why play a Warlock? We have even less. Why play a brusier? Why play a Monk? What's the benefit of playing an Inquisitor? Join the club.</blockquote>@1 You failed to adress the point summoners do significant lower dps then sorcs/preds and only comparable dps to rogue and a little bit over chanters WHILE BRINGING NOTHING TO THE RAID AT ALL! all other classes bring either more dps, more utility or simply booth !Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?@2 While weaking the caster ... you are better of for overal dps if you only use some selected pieces !@3 Without utility and only supbar dps why take a summoner over another class ? there is no logical reason given equal gear/skill players of another mentioned class sitting !@4 but summoner got the most swarmpet out of all classes conj have 3 out of 11 damage spells. these are 3 spells besides all otehr issues with swarm pets which could not be improved by gear at all ! i call this bad design !</blockquote>Ok, I stopped reading at the bolded point, not sure what you are raiding but that is flat wrong, all of those can be and are used in raids, cast hearts and shards almost constantly in a raid</blockquote>Not at end game...they are just not needed.....or used.</blockquote>interesting comment....don't see the same thing but hey might be different raiding styles</blockquote>And its not a exageration...since tso has been out i have used raid shard spell 2 times and have gotten a personal tell for a shard 3 times.This was preety much to break in content after learning scripts and what the encounter entails....they just arent needed.And this includes the hardest encounters in game ....even contested.There are just so many ways to get mana via buffs/proc and more efficent clickys the thought just doesnt come to mind....cause its not noticed to be needed.Heck this has gone on for a year or so ...once content was broken in with RoK the need went away....but now its even more detrimental because level cap did not go up so all those nifty ways to get mana are still with in the tier that is still played.

Yimway

01-15-2009, 07:44 PM

<cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hellfire wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wingrider01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?</blockquote>Ok, I stopped reading at the bolded point, not sure what you are raiding but that is flat wrong, all of those can be and are used in raids, cast hearts and shards almost constantly in a raid</blockquote>Not at end game...they are just not needed.....or used.</blockquote>interesting comment....don't see the same thing but hey might be different raiding styles</blockquote>Gentlemen,Understand that there is a bard and mythical enchanter in every group, then understand there are 2 mystic's with their power producing mythical as well, atleast one warden procing power from mythical, a coercer with his mana leveling ability, tinkered stones, etc, etc.Shards and/or power are just rarely ever a concern in such raids. Every player can choose to be a tinkerer and get a call and a fd, and a rez, these functions are no longer 'class utility'.I understand that some raids may find these items to be very useful, but once you're into mythicals and replaced your mediocre summoners with enchanters in every group, shards are so last year.

liveja

01-15-2009, 07:47 PM

<cite>Darkwind@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because I like the class although it has it's flaws what class does'nt.</blockquote>After 80 levels of Swashy, I'm hard-pressed to find a "flaw" in the class.

hellfire

01-15-2009, 07:51 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkwind@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because I like the class although it has it's flaws what class does'nt.</blockquote>After 80 levels of Swashy, I'm hard-pressed to find a "flaw" in the class.</blockquote>Also most classes produce more positives to make up for the flaws..........Ecept for summoners,druids and maybe inquiz/monks atm.

Thunndar316

01-15-2009, 08:11 PM

StaticLex

01-15-2009, 08:18 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote>You'd have to include a mechanic that requires that summoner to be in the group/raid for the temporary adornment to be worthwhile.They have this already, they're called../drumrollBuffs!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>That note was in response to the temporary adornment comment.</blockquote>Yes, I was just trying to be a wiseguy.. but after reading my own post again, I probably could have done a clearer job. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Gisallo

01-15-2009, 08:32 PM

<cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Summoners are currently doing more damage then any mage, aside from perhaps Wizards. They can Rez, CoH, Power Feed, Cast Hearts/Shards(Which yes, people still use). On top of that, FD. Beyond all that, they split hate with the pet making them some of the lowest hate generating DPS classes in the game. Sounds like quite a few reasons to me.2. That gear is making your class very powerful at the moment. And it's easily available.3. Because you don't need any more damage then you already have. The goal isn't to overpower you.4. Your not the only one with bad swarm pets.5. Why play a Warlock? We have even less. Why play a brusier? Why play a Monk? What's the benefit of playing an Inquisitor? Join the club.</blockquote>@1 You failed to adress the point summoners do significant lower dps then sorcs/preds and only comparable dps to rogue and a little bit over chanters WHILE BRINGING NOTHING TO THE RAID AT ALL! all other classes bring either more dps, more utility or simply booth !Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?@2 While weaking the caster ... you are better of for overal dps if you only use some selected pieces !@3 Without utility and only supbar dps why take a summoner over another class ? there is no logical reason given equal gear/skill players of another mentioned class sitting !@4 but summoner got the most swarmpet out of all classes conj have 3 out of 11 damage spells. these are 3 spells besides all otehr issues with swarm pets which could not be improved by gear at all ! i call this bad design !</blockquote>Actually he said that the do more dps than them. The two necros in our guild do high t2 low t1 dps, end of story. Also with the right gear, even without an Illy or a Coercer, our Mage group has NO power issues with a necro there. Rezzes are also not a waste. When people are dropping in your raid if your healers are doing the rezzing EPIC fail. They keep healing Dirges or Necro does the rezzing ftw.What it comes down to is this. there are indeed classes that will be invited to raids even if the player behind it stinks. Dirges for one. Summoners are in the same boat as most other classes though. Prove you can use your class to their true potential and you have a slot. I can only speak to Necro's here because we have never had a Conji app for a raid slot, but the two necros that have apped got in with no problem because they bring DPS, power and rez to the raid. Thats more than some other classes.Is this to say Summoners have NO issues. Nope, but then join the 20 other classes that have issues to be worked on.

Aule

01-15-2009, 08:50 PM

Here's an interesting experiment. The topic at hand is really summoners in the raid environment. Not the family guild that might try to raid last expansion content, or the expansion before that. Raider's. Looking at eq2flames recruitment threads, find a guild that is seeking to recruit summoners. How does this compare to the number of guilds seeking a troubador, or enchanters? I wonder how many pages you'd have to get back to see recruiting:summoner.

Cicadi

01-15-2009, 09:03 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Summoners are currently doing more damage then any mage, aside from perhaps Wizards. They can Rez, CoH, Power Feed, Cast Hearts/Shards(Which yes, people still use). On top of that, FD. Beyond all that, they split hate with the pet making them some of the lowest hate generating DPS classes in the game. Sounds like quite a few reasons to me.2. That gear is making your class very powerful at the moment. And it's easily available.3. Because you don't need any more damage then you already have. The goal isn't to overpower you.4. Your not the only one with bad swarm pets.5. Why play a Warlock? We have even less. Why play a brusier? Why play a Monk? What's the benefit of playing an Inquisitor? Join the club.</blockquote>@1 You failed to adress the point summoners do significant lower dps then sorcs/preds and only comparable dps to rogue and a little bit over chanters WHILE BRINGING NOTHING TO THE RAID AT ALL! all other classes bring either more dps, more utility or simply booth !Rez are meainingless. shards are a joke in raiding nobody need them, coh is a fluff spell ... FD come on ... for what does a group or raid need FD ?@2 While weaking the caster ... you are better of for overal dps if you only use some selected pieces !@3 Without utility and only supbar dps why take a summoner over another class ? there is no logical reason given equal gear/skill players of another mentioned class sitting !@4 but summoner got the most swarmpet out of all classes conj have 3 out of 11 damage spells. these are 3 spells besides all otehr issues with swarm pets which could not be improved by gear at all ! i call this bad design !</blockquote>Actually he said that the do more dps than them. The two necros in our guild do high t2 low t1 dps, end of story. Also with the right gear, even without an Illy or a Coercer, our Mage group has NO power issues with a necro there. Rezzes are also not a waste. When people are dropping in your raid if your healers are doing the rezzing EPIC fail. They keep healing Dirges or Necro does the rezzing ftw.What it comes down to is this. there are indeed classes that will be invited to raids even if the player behind it stinks. Dirges for one. Summoners are in the same boat as most other classes though. Prove you can use your class to their true potential and you have a slot. I can only speak to Necro's here because we have never had a Conji app for a raid slot, but the two necros that have apped got in with no problem because they bring DPS, power and rez to the raid. Thats more than some other classes.Is this to say Summoners have NO issues. Nope, but then join the 20 other classes that have issues to be worked on.</blockquote>But again, *assuming equal skill and gear* THERE IS NO REASON TO EVER TAKE A SUMMONER OVER ANOTHER DPS CLASS.Are you honestly telling me that, if, for example a player had 2 equally geared alts: a chanter/sorcerer/rouge/predator and a summoner, you would tell him to bring the summoner?And this point applies at all levels of raiding *and* at the heroic grouping level as well. However, as bigron/atan and others are saying, it is even worse in endgame raids

Gisallo

01-15-2009, 09:23 PM

To answer the two above. My guild does VP is not a family guild or a "occassional" raid guild. Over 50% of our force currently has their Mythicals and more to come. We bring a Necromancer on EVERY raid. EVERY raid and its been like that for the past year (and we have gone through 2 of them, not just one "old timer" coming along.) We look not at what the forums say should happen because to be honest half the people on the forums are whiney emo b#$%%^6s, we look at how the toon is played.What it comes down to is this. There will be classes this game almost requires, dirge, coercer, troub. However DPS means DPS. We don't go running around saying lf Assassin or lf sorcerer or ranger. We recruit dps and if you rock the parse and bring a little extra (which necros do) you are in.There are more than a few classes that NEVER end up ona recruitment poster but do end up in the raid guilds, because there are simply some class types where performance is KING.

hellfire

01-15-2009, 09:29 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>To answer the two above. My guild does VP is not a family guild or a "occassional" raid guild. Over 50% of our force currently has their Mythicals and more to come. We bring a Necromancer on EVERY raid. EVERY raid and its been like that for the past year (and we have gone through 2 of them, not just one "old timer" coming along.) We look not at what the forums say should happen because to be honest half the people on the forums are whiney emo b#$%%^6s, we look at how the toon is played.What it comes down to is this. There will be classes this game almost requires, dirge, coercer, troub. However DPS means DPS. We don't go running around saying lf Assassin or lf sorcerer or ranger. We recruit dps and if you rock the parse and bring a little extra (which necros do) you are in.</blockquote>Your are the definition of a casual guild....no offence you wont see any of these issues till you are in TSO doing Gynok/Killing tythus and useing avatar gear even from last exspantion.Like i said no offence but you are not even in the same ball park to even view these issues.

Vexel

01-15-2009, 10:12 PM

Just reading the OP, and some of the threads I wanted to add my 2c worth...I am a huge fan of my class (necromancer), I don't care if it's the lowest DPS class in the game, the most overpowered, the worst farmer, the slowest running, the worst class SOE ever designed (the above is not quoting anything in particular).I didn't make my character to be god at raids, to parse in the top, to be the best soloing character in EQ2. I made my character because I am a huge fan of the dark arts in the world of fantasy. I have fun playing my class, I enjoy getting into the RP aspect at times with my character. I had even made a post on here not long ago asking what group friendly class there is, that is slow to level, so I can find something I will enjoy and get into the character of that class as well.I do enjoy soloing, I do enjoy farming, I do enjoy raiding, I do enjoy camping a spawn for 3-4 hours while watching DVDs on the monitor next to me. I like the fact I can log on and just go do what I want without looking for a group, I also enjoy the fact I'm in a decent guild who does not mind me tagging along in their group.What do I bring to the group? I bring my spirit, I know my place in the group/raid, and I like putting in my necromantic comments here and there when an NPC has something to say. Or when something funny happens to a group member during the adventure.If you're playing a summoner just to be uber, or parse in the top you're playing your class for the wrong things. If you're playing it thinking you're going to be cookie cutter like most other "needed" classes in a raid, again you're playing the character for the wrong reasons. You need to enjoy what you play, if you don't then you need to reconcider playing something else and shelving your summoner.In groups I parse in the 3rd to 4th spot, if you add in my pet dps on the parse then I'm closer to the 2nd or 3rd spot. In raids I sometimes make the parse list or the top 10 for that fight, if it's a long fight.In short burst DPS fights you won't even be seen in the parse, because your DoTs are not ticking long enough to add up DPS. As for using the "DoT Pets" I don't even worry with the long casting times to use them vs the damage they do before dying mid-way through any fight.I'm keeping how I do my damage to myself, the only hint for the OP is to think about casting times vs. fight length and make sure you get the right stuff done to the target at the right times. Sometimes you don't even have time to cast a damage spell and it's better to just throw the debuffs you do have at your disposal on the mob so the real DPS classes in the group can cut through the trash like butter. It's all about knowing what your class is or isn't and what they can or can not do.Sounds like you're trying to hard, and trying to make your class something it will never be.Just a quick story to an already long post:Some guildies and I went out to Chardok last night, I'm level 74, we had a 76 Illy and the rest of the guys were 80's. We were working on an epic quest line for one of the guys. I tag along just for the lack of doing nothing else, and wanting to help my guild mate.The mobs started out for me, not so bad, one up yellows etc. Then we got into three up reds to me, instant death right? Well we wiped once, went back to where we were at. During the fights, I would debuff the mob, help with a little healing on the other casters in the group, while my adept 3 mage pet casted for my DPS. At one point I had to feign death, jump up, rez the main healer etc. We actually did very well for having someone my level in the group and a 76. Also during the run there were a few strategical manuevers we had to do, and I threw in my advice on it, which proved to be useful.So it just shows it's not what the class can do it's how you do it.

Cicadi

01-15-2009, 10:31 PM

I'm glad you have fun playing your necro and that you don't care about pure power, but most of us do, and posts like that are not going to help get us fixed.

Vexel

01-15-2009, 11:07 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's an interesting experiment. The topic at hand is really summoners in the raid environment. Not the family guild that might try to raid last expansion content, or the expansion before that. Raider's. Looking at eq2flames recruitment threads, find a guild that is seeking to recruit summoners. How does this compare to the number of guilds seeking a troubador, or enchanters? I wonder how many pages you'd have to get back to see recruiting:summoner.</blockquote>If that is the case how many are recruiting Shadow Knights?Why, because SK's and Summoner's are a dime-a-dozen! Everyone and their grandma playing has an SK, and half of those have a summoner or has made one they dink around with and visa versa.Guilds aren't recruiting summoners because they're all over the place. The classes you've listed they are recruiting are some of the most under played classes, and those that are played are already guilded, or to low level to raid yet.

hellfire

01-15-2009, 11:15 PM

<cite>Vexel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's an interesting experiment. The topic at hand is really summoners in the raid environment. Not the family guild that might try to raid last expansion content, or the expansion before that. Raider's. Looking at eq2flames recruitment threads, find a guild that is seeking to recruit summoners. How does this compare to the number of guilds seeking a troubador, or enchanters? I wonder how many pages you'd have to get back to see recruiting:summoner.</blockquote>If that is the case how many are recruiting Shadow Knights?Why, because SK's and Summoner's are a dime-a-dozen! Everyone and their grandma playing has an SK, and half of those have a summoner or has made one they dink around with and visa versa.Guilds aren't recruiting summoners because they're all over the place. The classes you've listed they are recruiting are some of the most under played classes, and those that are played are already guilded, or to low level to raid yet.</blockquote>Nope this is false.more then 50 pct of high end guilds dont even field a summoner andless then 10 have both summoners.Guilds are actually actively recruiting SKs now cause they are usefull.And they arnt a dime a dozen ..most raiding necros betray to conjs or retire.....and most conjs are just retireing.Im glad your enjoying your level 48 necro.

liveja

01-15-2009, 11:17 PM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkwind@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because I like the class although it has it's flaws what class does'nt.</blockquote>After 80 levels of Swashy, I'm hard-pressed to find a "flaw" in the class.</blockquote>Class hat. I'm a pirate, not a musketeer.</blockquote>If that's the WORST "flaw" in the Swashy class you can come up with, then you might as well acknowledge there aren't any flaws worth talking about. Because, honestly, there aren't.

Vexel

01-15-2009, 11:32 PM

<cite>hellfire wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nope this is false.more then 50 pct of high end guilds dont even field a summoner andless then 10 have both summoners.Guilds are actually actively recruiting SKs now cause they are usefull.And they arnt a dime a dozen ..most raiding necros betray to conjs or retire.....and most conjs are just retireing.Im glad your enjoying your level 48 necro.</blockquote>He's not 48, if you didn't know station was broken updating levels/profile pictures.If you even read my posts, you'd see I'm in my mid-70's, you know what they say about assume...

Vexel

01-15-2009, 11:33 PM

<cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm glad you have fun playing your necro and that you don't care about pure power, but most of us do, and posts like that are not going to help get us fixed.</blockquote>If you want pure power play something else.So you want a class with very good pets that do most their work, to do their work, plus you being able to do the damage a fury, wizard, or melee dps class does to make parse?It's not gonna happen...While I agree Necro's could use a little more utility for raiding, and a bit stronger debuffs, you have several other classes who debuff as well and it all stacks. So to even be stronger in debuffs then say a lock, or dirge, or defiler would make those classes useless partially, then they need to be "balanced" and the circle continues.The arguement now being raiding guilds do not recruit summoners, they retire and play something else etc.I'm sorry but I wouldn't even want to be apart of a guild who doesn't want me in their lil clique because I'm not viable for their little raid.As it stands I do just fine with my class and enjoy it, if I wanted to do as good as X class I would make X class and play it.

Gisallo

01-15-2009, 11:38 PM

<cite>hellfire wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>To answer the two above. My guild does VP is not a family guild or a "occassional" raid guild. Over 50% of our force currently has their Mythicals and more to come. We bring a Necromancer on EVERY raid. EVERY raid and its been like that for the past year (and we have gone through 2 of them, not just one "old timer" coming along.) We look not at what the forums say should happen because to be honest half the people on the forums are whiney emo b#$%%^6s, we look at how the toon is played.What it comes down to is this. There will be classes this game almost requires, dirge, coercer, troub. However DPS means DPS. We don't go running around saying lf Assassin or lf sorcerer or ranger. We recruit dps and if you rock the parse and bring a little extra (which necros do) you are in.</blockquote>Your are the definition of a casual guild....no offence you wont see any of these issues till you are in TSO doing Gynok/Killing tythus and useing avatar gear even from last exspantion.Like i said no offence but you are not even in the same ball park to even view these issues.</blockquote>So the definition of a hard core raid guild is a guild that is all avatar geared out? Hmmm so that means a handful of guilds period in the game are not casual. Thank you for pointing this out. I would argue that MAYBE 1% of the guilds in this game can clear VP and that less than 1/4 of them can reguarly with certainty kill Avatars. That means you are saying only .25% of all raid guilds are not casual. This being the case it means that likel 249,500 out of 250,000 estimated subscribers will ever see this issue. As such why should SOE care about this issue?

agnott

01-15-2009, 11:39 PM

<cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm glad you have fun playing your necro and that you don't care about pure power, but most of us do, and posts like that are not going to help get us fixed.</blockquote>You might want to check the bathroom right above the sink. The real problem with your class is there.

hellfire

01-15-2009, 11:42 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hellfire wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>To answer the two above. My guild does VP is not a family guild or a "occassional" raid guild. Over 50% of our force currently has their Mythicals and more to come. We bring a Necromancer on EVERY raid. EVERY raid and its been like that for the past year (and we have gone through 2 of them, not just one "old timer" coming along.) We look not at what the forums say should happen because to be honest half the people on the forums are whiney emo b#$%%^6s, we look at how the toon is played.What it comes down to is this. There will be classes this game almost requires, dirge, coercer, troub. However DPS means DPS. We don't go running around saying lf Assassin or lf sorcerer or ranger. We recruit dps and if you rock the parse and bring a little extra (which necros do) you are in.</blockquote>Your are the definition of a casual guild....no offence you wont see any of these issues till you are in TSO doing Gynok/Killing tythus and useing avatar gear even from last exspantion.Like i said no offence but you are not even in the same ball park to even view these issues.</blockquote>So the definition of a hard core raid guild is a guild that is all avatar geared out? Hmmm so that means a handful of guilds period in the game are not casual. Thank you for pointing this out because this then means that this entire argument is a complete waste of time because if less than 1% of the game population is hard core in your opinion, what effect does it have on over 249,500 subscribers? The answer 0.</blockquote>No but it isnt a guild doing content over 1 year old and half the guild doesnt weld the main wepon needed to raid anything harder.Gear is the biggest problem in the gap of classes due to the fact mostly all gear doesnt effect summoners.And since it get exponetially worse with the better high end gear ...those not doing end game content is not gonna see the same results or anywhere near the same difference between classes.

Gisallo

01-15-2009, 11:46 PM

<cite>hellfire wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hellfire wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>To answer the two above. My guild does VP is not a family guild or a "occassional" raid guild. Over 50% of our force currently has their Mythicals and more to come. We bring a Necromancer on EVERY raid. EVERY raid and its been like that for the past year (and we have gone through 2 of them, not just one "old timer" coming along.) We look not at what the forums say should happen because to be honest half the people on the forums are whiney emo b#$%%^6s, we look at how the toon is played.What it comes down to is this. There will be classes this game almost requires, dirge, coercer, troub. However DPS means DPS. We don't go running around saying lf Assassin or lf sorcerer or ranger. We recruit dps and if you rock the parse and bring a little extra (which necros do) you are in.</blockquote>Your are the definition of a casual guild....no offence you wont see any of these issues till you are in TSO doing Gynok/Killing tythus and useing avatar gear even from last exspantion.Like i said no offence but you are not even in the same ball park to even view these issues.</blockquote>So the definition of a hard core raid guild is a guild that is all avatar geared out? Hmmm so that means a handful of guilds period in the game are not casual. Thank you for pointing this out because this then means that this entire argument is a complete waste of time because if less than 1% of the game population is hard core in your opinion, what effect does it have on over 249,500 subscribers? The answer 0.</blockquote>no but it isnt a guild doing content over 1 year old and half the guild doesnt weld the main wepon needed to raid anything harder.</blockquote>perhaps it is a question of time. perhaps a guild only discovered a specific direction in the last month or two. Casual/hardcore/family is not determined by what gear you have at the moment. Such definitions are determined by what goals you have and what steps you have determined and are implementing in order to meet them. If you have determined you are putting VP on farm status and are successfully achieving this goal in the increments required (get right gear, good reliable players etc.) then you are using the same methods of those that came before you, the ones you are calling hard core. Using your definition a guild that raids 5 days a week and has the raid force on speed dial to go after contested Epics is casual simply because the fact that they have not been together as long as other guilds (The relentless isn't that crazed its just an exaggeration to proof a point). Seem limited and insular in vision much?Regardless of the definition you use, we all have different oppinions (and no offense taken btw just voicing mine). Thing is though these same exact arguments have been used since RoK and yet I see guild after guild that have summoners in their force that are clearing VP and kicking butt and taking names as they expand towards TSO raid zones. Is it not logical to suppose that since the calls of "the sky is falling" with RoK were wrong that it is not a certainty of failure in TSO as well? Perhaps I am too logical in my turns of thought, but until I see that my guilds Necro has suddenly and miraculously become [Removed for Content] upon stepping in front of an Avatar or into a TSO raid zone, I am simply not going to believe it.

Compas

01-16-2009, 12:43 AM

The gear, ability progression, debuff mechanics and current summoner buffs pretty much leave he summoners in the dust its very clear.The best caster gear makes the pet a.k.a 40-60% of our damage un effected the gear that enchances our pets is almost stated for EOF compaired to the other counterpart pieces of gear. The buffs a summoner can provide are so trivial that an extra tank provideds more to a group or a raid force, Mobs can only be debufffed so far as seen in shard of hate that even with every conceavable debuff on these targets you still get resited and lower damage output which wreckes your pets dps. Oh and to the comment of a necromancer standing in front of a avatar the resist rates are so high cause the pets can bairly land a spell even with dispatch, as it seems pets do not seem to gain full benifit from the debuffs that effect targets. So you my necro cna rock the parse in VP big deal there are better fabled drops for teh TSO instances and the raid zones other then playing catch-up on AA's or mythical weapons or gearing out alts what is really the point of even going to VP.....?Compas / Anjez80 Necromancer (retired)/ 80 TroubadorUnrest

Vexel

01-16-2009, 12:50 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps I am too logical in my turns of thought, but until I see that my guilds Necro has suddenly and miraculously become [Removed for Content] upon stepping in front of an Avatar or into a TSO raid zone, I am simply not going to believe it.</blockquote>I couldn't have said it better, kudos!Some guilds actually take their time and ramp up to endgame content, this could be because of the lack of members who show up for raids etc.I go on every instance run or raid my guild wants to do, I've never had an issue where the guild thinks I'm not doing my part, granted I don't have all the good gear, but how will I get gear if I couldn't participate in the runs?I'm glad some people have aspirations to raid, and want to level as fast as possible, get geard out, hit endgame content, and put it on farm. Just so they can hang out and say how X class sucks, or this and that needs to be done to each class. If we went strictly by their data then casual players who make up the majority of the game would have a different gaming experience, just like if we changed classes based off PvP data.

Jeepned2

01-16-2009, 03:35 AM

Interesting read. Unfortunately I can't add much to it since we have no summoners or SK's in our guild, nor are we looking for any. As a raiding guild we try to keep our numbers down to around 28-32 accounts. With that low of number of accounts, there are simply more critical classes needed then summoners and Sk's. Good luck at getting SoE to do anything about though, I wish you all the luck in the world.

hellfire

01-16-2009, 03:47 AM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Interesting read. Unfortunately I can't add much to it since we have no summoners or SK's in our guild, nor are we looking for any. As a raiding guild we try to keep our numbers down to around 28-32 accounts. With that low of number of accounts, there are simply more critical classes needed then summoners and Sk's. Good luck at getting SoE to do anything about though, I wish you all the luck in the world.</blockquote>Thanks...and this is a perfect example of what is going on.....Its fine preety much ive made this thread my home/mission and preety sure it will stay on first page.

StaticLex

01-16-2009, 05:03 AM

The raid situation is only half of it. Watch any servers 70-80 chat for a while and you'll constantly see groups looking for melee/scout DPS exclusively. IF they are looking for a T2 DPS they will then specify brig/swash.If some of you people are so ignorant/blind to acknowledge that, across all servers, raid guilds aren't recruiting summoners and groups are avoiding them also, I feel sorry for the guild that has to work with you. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" />

Cicadi

01-16-2009, 05:42 AM

<cite>agnott wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm glad you have fun playing your necro and that you don't care about pure power, but most of us do, and posts like that are not going to help get us fixed.</blockquote>You might want to check the bathroom right above the sink. The real problem with your class is there.</blockquote>So you are saying that it is entirely down to the player and game mechanics have nothing to do with it? Just like SKs and coercers were fine before they were fixed and just like the first 7 months of the game where summoners had only one functioning pet? If you can honestly answer my main point (why you would choose a summoner over any other dps class), then i might be more inclined to agree.Anyway, sorry if I sounded a little harsh. I am not trying to start a fight with casual summoners that enjoy the class. That is absolutely fine. The issue we are trying to address here is the fact that we are simply not wanted for end game grouping/raiding.

thog_zork

01-16-2009, 08:51 AM

And by endgame rainding you mean even remotely serious raiding ! I do not raid in a hardcore force i consider us semi-casual we do not kill contested but we cleared all ROK instance content (during rok)But even with us you could clearly see in VP/SOH even more so in TSO-Zones this big difference in potential and what is accomplished by a class and how well the raid/group perfroms with different class combination and summoners do get the short end of the stick during min/max ... and every serious raidforce does min/max !Also even here everyone sees & knows and agree upon the fact that summoners are not needed and in some cases a big hinderance because the added utility+dps from another class could have made it easier or even posible to overcome the encounter!It i would switch mains tomorrow to my illusionist my fordce would be better of ! I know this and my forces knows this! And guess what we would not recruit a summoner replacement for me !Thing are also starting to get uglier for the casual summoners because as of now PUGs are avoiding them ! The moment you stop soloing and start grouping for the harder TSO instances with pugs. i doubt you will find a spot quickly in a PUG!

Yimway

01-16-2009, 12:01 PM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote>The raid situation is only half of it. Watch any servers 70-80 chat for a while and you'll constantly see groups looking for melee/scout DPS exclusively. IF they are looking for a T2 DPS they will then specify brig/swash.</blockquote>For gits and shiggles, I pulled up some parses from my logs of PuGs I've done recently.Looking at zonewides, the 5 times I had a summoner in group, he failed to top the tank on zonewide parse. Fact is, most of the time summoners are a liability to your group. And yes, even in a PuG, I'd bring a 2nd fighter class for dps over a summoner, cause chances are 9 times out of 10, the summoner is going to suck hard.

liveja

01-16-2009, 12:36 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looking at zonewides, the 5 times I had a summoner in group, he failed to top the tank on zonewide parse. Fact is, most of the time summoners are a liability to your group.</blockquote>If parsers had never been invented, & nobody had ever even thought to examine "damage per second", would you still feel the same? I have a feeling you wouldn't know whether you should, or not, feel the same, because you wouldn't have the information available to you on which to base the decision. Does having that wealth of information make people better players? Not inherently so, or else, after 10 years or more of people looking at damage parsers, we wouldn't still have level 80s who have played for years & still utterly suck at their classes. The problem is not DPS; the problem is overall player competence. Good players are generally good no matter what class they're playing; bad players are precisely the opposite, & no amount of increased DPS will change either of those, other than to make good players DPS even more than they previously did.In those 5 PUGs you're talking about: did your group accomplish its task? If so, what was the "liability" the summoner hit your group with? Was it just that you took more time & did things less efficiently? Or did having the summoner in the group actually, actively place your mission & group in jeopardy?I've a feeling it was more that you took more time to do things & did them less efficiently. That's actually not a very major concern of mine <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> In my experience, the times I've run TSO instances with Summoners worked just as well as any other TSO run, & no worse than any other TSO run, & certainly nothing that happened in the run could be blamed on the Summoner .... so, I see no reason to reject someone from a PUG, just because he/she is a Summoner.IMO, if Summoners are being rejected from groups -- especially from PUGs -- it has more to do with the all-holy, all-mighty DPS parser that everyone seems to worship slavishly. I've said before, I'll say again: while I understand the reason FOR using DPS parsers, IMO the vast majority of players don't use them for that purpose. Instead, they use DPS parsers as an [Removed for Content] Meter: those with the biggest parses have (& often are) the biggest E-Peens.I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not the least impressed by [Removed for Content] <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> I'm impressed by intelligent people who make the group fun to play in, & who at the same time are competent enough that the whole group wins. AFAIC, "winning" the parse is like "winning" the Special Olympics: here's a cookie for you, but outside of a limited group of people, nobody cares.My objection to the Summoner class -- specifically, the Conjuror class -- is not that it is "broken", because I don't believe it is. My objection is solely that it's a dull-as-dirt, boring, lackluster class with very few "o crap" abilities to use if things go suddenly really, really bad. Even my Troubie is more fun to solo & group with, more versatile, & has more such "o crap" abilities. Itemization could certainly be improved for Summoners, but I agree with the people who have argued that fixing a classes issues via itemization is a bad method, because it's only a band-aid.I think the other major problem with Summoners has been touched on, but not enough: why bother playing one, when they're a freekin' dime-a-5-dozen???? People play them -- quite often -- because they're seen as excellent solo classes, but then discover, when they get to 80th level, that everyone else in the world has one, too, thus making the competition for group/raid slots immense, & thus also driving the use of DPS [Removed for Content] meters to distinguish between "those who rock" & "those who suck." I think these are primarily player perception issues that SOE can't fix, which is another reason this issue has gone on as long as it has, & will probably continue to go on for months & months of months & months.

Bhow

01-16-2009, 12:43 PM

Assumptions(To save me a headache later)1) All people are equally geared.2) All people are equally skilled.Wow, not sure how I missed this gem...Ive said before and will say again, the mage classes are disgustingly out of balance.For the people that have a hard time understanding this, look at dps v. utility for scouts and then for mages...Scouts - Assassins and Rangers - Crazy dps, not too much utility.Swashbuckler - a bit less dps than an assassin/ranger, but a bit more than a brigand, a bit more util than an assassin/ranger.Brigand - Less dps than a swashy, but brings debuffsBards - Tons of buffs, not tons of dps. (Yes they can still parse, just don't outparse the rest of the scouts...)This, imo, is pretty well balanced.Now, mages.Sorcerers - Tons of dps, and a little bit of utility (firigd gift for the wiz for example)Summoners - No real utility, less dps than sorcerers (except when vs. a wizard on an AE fight).Enchanters - tons and tons of utility, and dps almost on par with a summoner if not exceeding said summoner.Anyone see some discrepancy here? Summoners are SUPPOSED to be T2 dps and get more util than the sorcerers... We dont get either.To the people saying the class is fine...It isnt. Does this mean a good summoner can't parse decently? No. However, depending on where you fall in the skill spectrum, just because a good summoner may blast you on the parse doesn't make him good compared to a good chanter or sorcerer.As to the gear discussion... Imagine sorcerers and enchanters spell crit and spell mod only applying to 60%ish of their spells... then you understand what its like to play a summoner. And thats leaving out all the other issues with the pets...Other crap that needs to be addressed as to summoners.1) Unless your healer is either a) amazing, or b) bored as all hell, they probably dont cure your pet... For the people in heroic content, this means squat. To the people in raid content.. This means a dead pet, and bye bye to 40% of your parse. There NEEDS to be a way for summoners to cure their own pets.2) More utility needs to be added to the class. Summoners should be bringing more util than a sorcerer and less than an enchanter, currently, we bring less than both.....3) ALL our spells need to be affected by our spell crit and spell mod... INCLUDING temp pets.. Gotta love dots that can die to AE's... and dont even do crap.4) As Bigron has said, and I can't agree more, our pets need to get our stats. If I have 100% crit, my pet should as well, and I should NOT have to sacrafice my own stats to buff up my pets... Its pointless. Not to mention, in the end, Im worse off.Seriously though people, do NOT pretend like summoners are fine and that mages are balanced. It is clear as all hell that they are not. Heck, anyone with any form of common sense should be able to see it...

Yimway

01-16-2009, 12:52 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>In those 5 PUGs you're talking about: did your group accomplish its task? If so, what was the "liability" the summoner hit your group with? Was it just that you took more time & did things less efficiently? Or did having the summoner in the group actually, actively place your mission & group in jeopardy?</blockquote>In these cases, no, we finished. But I generally wouldn't take a pug into the instances that simply _require_ top dps to complete. If I did, it would be fellow trusted raiders that I could rely on to play their class to its potential, and even then, I'm about 99% sure that wouldn't include a summoner.I hate to burst the bubble, but winning at eq2 is very, VERY much about max dps. In that, most twists and turns can be overcome by raw dps more easily than what the script designer had in mind for the encounter.But this is getting far afield. Summoner class is broken as long as thier pets do not inheret the dmg and crit modifier of thier caster. I'm all for them getting some utility as well somehow, but fixing the pets dps modifiers is tantamount.If I had to suggest some utility for the class:1 - Single Target Stoneskin buff that is castable on raid friend.2 - Protective Bubble - Single target ability that provides 30s aoe immunity, 2 min recast time.3 - Change the single target melee proc buff to a group buff that lasts 15 seconds and provides 5-10 procs on melee or spell attack, 1 min recast.4 - Any pet in a resting state is immune to AoE effects (maybe too powerful, but something needs to be done about pet survivability).But any of that utility will do nothing without fixing the pet dps modifiers.

liveja

01-16-2009, 01:12 PM

I'd like to make clear that because I'm not a raider, I'm not referring to any "raid issues." Quite frankly, the REAL issues of Summoners -- the ones that DO justify leaving them on the sidelines -- are, IMO, only pertinent to raids. It would be nice if things could be clearly distinguished between raid issues & grouping issues; in fact, it might be nice if we had a forum strictly for raid issues, so that we don't get two entirely different crowds of players arguing two totally different sets of parameters & thus constantly talking against each other.I don't have an issue with any of the utility buffs people have suggested, & in particular, I agree that the Summoner's pet needs to share more, if not all, of its Master's DPS & Crit buffs. But I'm not sure that any of that will effectively "fix" Summoners, & I'm concerned that the pet buff, in particular, will have Sorcerors whining that now they're being regularly out-parsed by Summoner pets & that now THEY'RE the ones being left on the sidelines.Basically, I'm not sure I trust SOE to "fix" anything, without causing even more problems.

StaticLex

01-16-2009, 01:50 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Basically, I'm not sure I trust SOE to "fix" anything, without causing even more problems.</blockquote>Nobody should. These people clearly have no comprehensive plan for balancing all of the classes against one another. They take one [Removed for Content] class or archtype at a time, give it a few trix that make it the new flavor of the month, and then move on to another class that players are whining about. Rinse/repeat. Maybe this is job security for them, I don't know. heh As a player I do know that I find it incredibly annoying to play in this environment, and to be honest I'm a little surprised the people higher up the food chain at soe don't fire the devs for aproaching the game in such a boobish/inefficient way.

Yimway

01-16-2009, 01:50 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd like to make clear that because I'm not a raider, I'm not referring to any "raid issues." Quite frankly, the REAL issues of Summoners -- the ones that DO justify leaving them on the sidelines -- are, IMO, only pertinent to raids. It would be nice if things could be clearly distinguished between raid issues & grouping issues; in fact, it might be nice if we had a forum strictly for raid issues, so that we don't get two entirely different crowds of players arguing two totally different sets of parameters & thus constantly talking against each other.</blockquote>I have made this suggestion to Grimwell in the past before the last revamp of these boards. I even offered to help moderate it. But, I don't believe SoE views these issues to be 'raid' or 'group' specific. And honestly, in case it is not.What is affecting the desireability of the class for raid guilds, is the same thing affecting the desirability of the class in heroic content. Raiders may just be a bit more vocal on the subject, or have a more defined idea of specifically what is wrong, while PuGs just unconciously ignore the class for the simple reason of, there is no reason we ever say, it would be nice to have a summoner for encounter x or zone y or group makeup z.Raiders on the otherhand spend a great deal of time and resources analyzing which class makeups optomize groups, and you don't see any of us that do those excersizes touting the case where the summoner shines. Or any given encounter where some special utility beckons bringing the class in for.

Gisallo

01-16-2009, 01:50 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote>The raid situation is only half of it. Watch any servers 70-80 chat for a while and you'll constantly see groups looking for melee/scout DPS exclusively. IF they are looking for a T2 DPS they will then specify brig/swash.</blockquote>For gits and shiggles, I pulled up some parses from my logs of PuGs I've done recently.Looking at zonewides, the 5 times I had a summoner in group, he failed to top the tank on zonewide parse. Fact is, most of the time summoners are a liability to your group. And yes, even in a PuG, I'd bring a 2nd fighter class for dps over a summoner, cause chances are 9 times out of 10, the summoner is going to suck hard.</blockquote>Like I said, maybe its just we've been lucky with Necros, but the one we currently have in instances is duelin for the number 1 spot on the parse. I think the biggest liability for Summoners is NOT the potential of the class, though yes they may be the mage with the most issues. I think the biggest liability is that a lot of people roll them as they are a pet class and slightly easier to solo than other classes. They use the pet as a crutch, rather than a tool, and never really learn to play their class. Even though there are people who know how to play the class, the reputation of these players preceeds them. I've seen summoners parse beneath my tank in a PuG instance but with the two in my guild the Necros are fighting with the melee dps for the number 1 spot and they are all pretty equally geared (mythicals etc) <shrug>.

Gisallo

01-16-2009, 01:55 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd like to make clear that because I'm not a raider, I'm not referring to any "raid issues." Quite frankly, the REAL issues of Summoners -- the ones that DO justify leaving them on the sidelines -- are, IMO, only pertinent to raids. It would be nice if things could be clearly distinguished between raid issues & grouping issues; in fact, it might be nice if we had a forum strictly for raid issues, so that we don't get two entirely different crowds of players arguing two totally different sets of parameters & thus constantly talking against each other.</blockquote>Ding Ding Ding. They will never do this though. I think if they do the mess that are the central mechanics of the game will get exposed because you will be able to see a clear dichotomy between classes that are better in one field than another. Some classes are fine in groups and you don't have issues till raid time because of how buffs, debuffs and group make up effect them. Others are [Removed for Content] in groups until the get to raids where they really shine. To bring up these classes in one field would likely make them overpowered on the other, and the only way to fix it would be massive revamps. The easiest way to avoid this spot light is to keep the forums less focused so that these issues are not as readily apparent.

liveja

01-16-2009, 02:04 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>while PuGs just unconciously ignore the class for the simple reason of, there is no reason we ever say.</blockquote>Of course there's "no reason we ever say" for ignoring Summoners in heroic content, because in the vast bulk of heroic content, there is no reason to say. Do Summoners have issues. Yes. Do those issues really mean a tin plate of anything in Scion??? No, they don't, except to those players addicted to ACT E-Peenage.You say you avoid "pugs" in those instances that "require top dps", but those instances are the minority of the game as a whole, in fact are even the minority in TSO. For instances like Scion, DF, Evernight, OoA, Nu'Roga, & so on, there is simply no defensible reason for excluding Summoners, consciously or otherwise. IMO, for instances more difficult than those, there's no reason to tell a guildie Summoner, "Sorry, Pal, but we can't take you to YOS, because, you know, you're just a Summoner" -- IMO, doing so is simply rude, & if my guildies ever told ME that, my only response would be to hit the "guild removal" button.I note that you'll take "skilled" Summoners -- raiders who you know know their class well & are well-geared -- even though they're not your first choice. This tells me that Summoners can overcome the issues & make things work, & frankly, I'll take THAT kind of player over an ACT [Removed for Content] Champion any day of the week.

StaticLex

01-16-2009, 02:11 PM

Oh comon' with the "summoners are easy to play and thus have alot of crappy players behind them" nonsense. I have seen just as many crappy players of every other class. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> You want to hear my favorite? Monks/bruisers. These people think they are DPS. Not only do they think they are DPS but they have FD, which allows them to easily get out of a crappy situation which in turn means they never learned to play. You call on a monk/bruiser to tank for a group now-a-days and they completely blow because 1.) they probably never tanked in the first place, and 2.) they don't have the slightest idea what to do when faced with multiple encounters attacking the group (besides maybe FD and start rezzing).The stigma that is following summoners around isn't based on crappy play, because like I said, there are crappy players of ALL classes. It's based on real defficiences of the class archtype.

Huntress Jellica

01-16-2009, 02:12 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO, if Summoners are being rejected from groups -- especially from PUGs -- it has more to do with the all-holy, all-mighty DPS parser that everyone seems to worship slavishly. I've said before, I'll say again: while I understand the reason FOR using DPS parsers, IMO the vast majority of players don't use them for that purpose. Instead, they use DPS parsers as an [Removed for Content] Meter: those with the biggest parses have (& often are) the biggest E-Peens.I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not the least impressed by [Removed for Content] <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> I'm impressed by intelligent people who make the group fun to play in, & who at the same time are competent enough that the whole group wins. AFAIC, "winning" the parse is like "winning" the Special Olympics: here's a cookie for you, but outside of a limited group of people, nobody cares.</blockquote>I 100% agree. The ONLY thing I use ACT for is to help me time my CAs between auto attacks, because I'm terrible at doing it manually.. I couldn't care less about who topped what parse when. And so many people in my guild and lots of others out there *cough*raiding guilds*cough* like to take a look at their [Removed for Content] (lol) all the time, and flaunt it to everyone.. drives me batty.Good points, Flaye.. that about sums up my feelings on summoners.

Yimway

01-16-2009, 02:12 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>while PuGs just unconciously ignore the class for the simple reason of, there is no reason we ever say.</blockquote>Of course there's "no reason we ever say" for ignoring Summoners in heroic content, because in the vast bulk of heroic content, there is no reason to say. Do Summoners have issues. Yes. Do those issues really mean a tin plate of anything in Scion??? No, they don't, except to those players addicted to ACT E-Peenage.</blockquote>Your bias against players that judge the mettle of dps classes by ACT data seems to prevent you from acknowledging my central point. There is no situation in which any of us say, a summoner would be great for zone x, encounter y, or group makeup z.However, i can think of situations that I could/would say that about nearly every other class/subclass. Some of them might be rare and far between, but I can atleast point to something.

liveja

01-16-2009, 02:25 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no situation in which any of us say, a summoner would be great for zone x, encounter y, or group makeup z.</blockquote>Um, that point was crystal clear, pages & pages & pages ago <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />It's perfectly valid in zones like YOS, Ferzhul, & so on, where carefully created groups that pay attention to group synergy are important.It's perfectly invalid in Scions, DF, & so on, where just about any party of mostly competent players can clear without too many issues. It's laughable [Removed for Content] nonsense when applied to any heroic instance prior to TSO. IOW, for the very vast bulk of the game, your central point is pointless.Please understand the distinction -- especially since I very clearly stated it.

Cicadi

01-16-2009, 03:04 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no situation in which any of us say, a summoner would be great for zone x, encounter y, or group makeup z.</blockquote>Um, that point was crystal clear, pages & pages & pages ago <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />It's perfectly valid in zones like YOS, Ferzhul, & so on, where carefully created groups that pay attention to group synergy are important.It's perfectly invalid in Scions, DF, & so on, where just about any party of mostly competent players can clear without too many issues. It's laughable [Removed for Content] nonsense when applied to any heroic instance prior to TSO. IOW, for the very vast bulk of the game, your central point is pointless.Please understand the distinction -- especially since I very clearly stated it.</blockquote>OK, so you agree that summoners are useless for hard content.Your point about not needing a perfect group for easy zones is perfectly valid, and obviously a summoner is capable of filling a dps role in these easy zones. Well played and geared summoners are more than capable of outparsing mediocre players. HOWEVER, assuming equal skill and gear, the fact is that summoners are currently the worst choice for dps in heroic groups and more importantly are known as being the worst choice. How many PUGs do you see advertising for summoners? Hint: 0.The problem is not just at the highest levels of the raiding game, it is throughout all end game content, be it raiding or heroic instance groups: every other dps class brings more utility to a group/raid than a summoner and likely more dps as well and everyone knows it.

liveja

01-16-2009, 03:26 PM

<cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is not just at the highest levels of the raiding game, it is throughout all end game content, be it raiding or heroic instance groups: every other dps class brings more utility to a group/raid than a summoner and likely more dps as well.</blockquote>By "end-game" content -- at least so far as heroic instances go -- you're talking about YOS, Ferzhul, & so forth. Note that I very clearly said that Atan's point was valid for those instances.If you're talking about Scion, DF, & so forth, then the bolded portion of your post is both entirely true, & also entirely irrelevant. Seriously, you're still going to easily clear Scion with a Summoner; anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know what they're doing. So, really, who freekin' cares that it took a few more minutes to clear Scion??? You still get your shards.Bottom line: for the vast bulk of the game, there's no defensible reason to exclude a Summoner -- unless you're simply addicted to the [Removed for Content] Championships (oooo, we parsed 50K in Scions & finished it in 10 minutes flat, we're sooooooo much more uber than you!!!!! IOW, it would be really outstanding if we could all limit our comments to the actual end-game content, rather than distorting the issue by bringing up ez-breez stuff nobody should have much difficulty with.

Yimway

01-16-2009, 03:30 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're talking about Scion, DF, & so forth, then the bolded portion of your post is both entirely true, & also entirely irrelevant. Seriously, you're still going to easily clear Scion with a Summoner; anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know what they're doing. So, really, who freekin' cares that it took a few more minutes to clear Scion??? You still get your shards.</blockquote>We've duo'd Scion, it really isn't very relevant to discussing the merits of any class in heroic play.

liveja

01-16-2009, 03:35 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're talking about Scion, DF, & so forth, then the bolded portion of your post is both entirely true, & also entirely irrelevant. Seriously, you're still going to easily clear Scion with a Summoner; anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know what they're doing. So, really, who freekin' cares that it took a few more minutes to clear Scion??? You still get your shards.</blockquote>We've duo'd Scion, it really isn't very relevant to discussing the merits of any class in heroic play.</blockquote>Precisely my point: this discussion is distorted by comments implying that this is a game-wide issue, when it is not.I realize there is a metric butt-ton of people on level chat channels who think that Summoners are totally lame & broken even in Scion, but seriously, who pays attention to them??? They probably still think they need 2 healers for COA <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />This is purely an issue about raid zones, & the very hardest heroic instances. Let's keep it there, shall we? Gosh, if only we had a "raid issues" forum.

hellfire

01-16-2009, 03:43 PM

People gauged their damage and it would measure the capability of the player/class long befor act or any damage parser was invented.I rember doing this in eq1 with pen and paper for a optimul spell cast for my mage.That is how damage dealers are judged by the amount of damage that is put out...but usefull utility has to be figured in to....and on high end raids its not really usefull and is not missed if it isnt their.Raids miss bards if not their...miss chanters...miss sorcers... miss predertors.....miss rouges..........No one would miss a conj.....

Cmos

01-16-2009, 03:45 PM

Why Play either Summoner Class?Lets see....Because you enjoy the classes...If you enjoy them, then you are having fun...If you are having fun, then, why not play either summoner class?

Cicadi

01-16-2009, 03:50 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is not just at the highest levels of the raiding game, it is throughout all end game content, be it raiding or heroic instance groups: every other dps class brings more utility to a group/raid than a summoner and likely more dps as well.</blockquote>By "end-game" content -- at least so far as heroic instances go -- you're talking about YOS, Ferzhul, & so forth. Note that I very clearly said that Atan's point was valid for those instances.If you're talking about Scion, DF, & so forth, then the bolded portion of your post is both entirely true, & also entirely irrelevant. Seriously, you're still going to easily clear Scion with a Summoner; anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know what they're doing. So, really, who freekin' cares that it took a few more minutes to clear Scion??? You still get your shards.Bottom line: for the vast bulk of the game, there's no defensible reason to exclude a Summoner -- unless you're simply addicted to the [Removed for Content] Championships (oooo, we parsed 50K in Scions & finished it in 10 minutes flat, we're sooooooo much more uber than you!!!!! IOW, it would be really outstanding if we could all limit our comments to the actual end-game content, rather than distorting the issue by bringing up ez-breez stuff nobody should have much difficulty with.</blockquote>To clarify 'end game' in this context = all of t8.Of course it doesn't realistically matter what dps classes you have for easy zones. however, i absolutely guarantee you that, if given the choice, people will not pick summoners even for these zones.

Azekah1

01-16-2009, 04:01 PM

With the issue of pets....why not give summoners the ability to "merge" with thier pets.Obvisouly pets are really mostly needed only when soloing....or when your in a bad or unconventional group...But all the other times the pet is more of a nuisance than anything. Give summoners the choice of removing thier pets for some other perk...not sure exactly what this would be...obviously dps would have to increase...maybe make it a spell damage increase buff or whatever...just my 2coppers

Thunndar316

01-16-2009, 04:14 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkwind@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because I like the class although it has it's flaws what class does'nt.</blockquote>After 80 levels of Swashy, I'm hard-pressed to find a "flaw" in the class.</blockquote>Class hat. I'm a pirate, not a musketeer.</blockquote>If that's the WORST "flaw" in the Swashy class you can come up with, then you might as well acknowledge there aren't any flaws worth talking about. Because, honestly, there aren't.</blockquote>Man are you always this serious? Loosen up.

Thunndar316

01-16-2009, 04:17 PM

[Removed for Content]. We ran Overking last night. Here comes the big Demon pet, rawr, dead, AoE. Poor summoners

Yimway

01-16-2009, 05:02 PM

<cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>With the issue of pets....why not give summoners the ability to "merge" with thier pets.Obvisouly pets are really mostly needed only when soloing....or when your in a bad or unconventional group...But all the other times the pet is more of a nuisance than anything. Give summoners the choice of removing thier pets for some other perk...not sure exactly what this would be...obviously dps would have to increase...maybe make it a spell damage increase buff or whatever...just my 2coppers</blockquote>That's an interesting notion.The way I would code this, is when you merged with your pet, you would get the abilities added to your hotbar that the pet has (the 5 or so you see when you posess it).Then those spells become your spells affected by your dps modifiers, and you only worry about your survivability and not your pets. Key here is the tank and scout 'abilities' would need to count as spells for the damage modifiers.Honestly, that really isn't a bad idea.

woolf2k

01-16-2009, 05:23 PM

Answer: to have fun. Conjurors are fun to play and do good dps and are a benefit to any group. They're useful in any raid as well.the points you make are all based on the opinion on "Hardcore Raiders".They are ones that have made the conjuror "useless". So your beef is with them... So if you're going to hang around with them then you need to NOT play a conjuror and play something that they deem fit.good luck with that.

Gisallo

01-16-2009, 05:32 PM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh comon' with the "summoners are easy to play and thus have alot of crappy players behind them" nonsense. I have seen just as many crappy players of every other class. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> You want to hear my favorite? Monks/bruisers. These people think they are DPS. Not only do they think they are DPS but they have FD, which allows them to easily get out of a crappy situation which in turn means they never learned to play. You call on a monk/bruiser to tank for a group now-a-days and they completely blow because 1.) they probably never tanked in the first place, and 2.) they don't have the slightest idea what to do when faced with multiple encounters attacking the group (besides maybe FD and start rezzing).The stigma that is following summoners around isn't based on crappy play, because like I said, there are crappy players of ALL classes. It's based on real defficiences of the class archtype.</blockquote>Agreed but certain classes have a "rep" that can not be denied, at least on my server. Furies have a rep of being played by people who really wanted to be mages but wanted to heal themselves to solo better, hence when you are looking for a healer be careful when selecting a fury for a PuG because you may get a nuker instead of a healer. Brawlers have an issue with people picking them as tough dps as well and Rangers have an issue with people picking the class because they can kite and dual wield but never learn to really dps.The fact that other classes though have a similar issue does not invalidate a reputation one class has gained in the eyes of other players.

Gisallo

01-16-2009, 05:36 PM

<cite>Cicadian wrote:</cite><blockquote>OK, so you agree that summoners are useless for hard content.Your point about not needing a perfect group for easy zones is perfectly valid, and obviously a summoner is capable of filling a dps role in these easy zones. Well played and geared summoners are more than capable of outparsing mediocre players. HOWEVER, assuming equal skill and gear, the fact is that summoners are currently the worst choice for dps in heroic groups and more importantly are known as being the worst choice. How many PUGs do you see advertising for summoners? Hint: 0.The problem is not just at the highest levels of the raiding game, it is throughout all end game content, be it raiding or heroic instance groups: every other dps class brings more utility to a group/raid than a summoner and likely more dps as well and everyone knows it.</blockquote>The problem is the guild I am in consistently has had Necros that parse in the top 5 of a raid force. Heck last night our Ranger and out Assassin were worried that the Necro was going to beat them on the zone wide. Not because they suck, those two guys rock, but because the Necro simply parses that well. Is it possible that my guild has lucked out and gotten to god like Necro's in a row? Perhaps, but I find that unlikely.

Gisallo

01-16-2009, 05:41 PM

<cite>Jaine@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Answer: to have fun. Conjurors are fun to play and do good dps and are a benefit to any group. They're useful in any raid as well.the points you make are all based on the opinion on "Hardcore Raiders".They are ones that have made the conjuror "useless". So your beef is with them... So if you're going to hang around with them then you need to NOT play a conjuror and play something that they deem fit.good luck with that.</blockquote>And who the heck knows what the definition of Hard Core is? There is an entire thread on that. It can simply be a performance based raid force with performance being based on "put up or get out of the way we will do every raid zone eventually, slow and steady wins the race" to "we are the hare to the tortise I know we got together last week but next week be ready to clear VP" to "if I don't have you on speed dial to call you at 4am to wake u up because a scout said the Avatar of War is up you're out."

007djdeadly

01-16-2009, 05:48 PM

I have a lv 80 Necro and lv 80 Coercer, both fully mastered, etc. Let me tell you: Summoners are broke and the community knows it. Nearly impossible to find a grp with my Necro, even though he does pretty good dps. My Coercer gets a grp many times while he is still logging in. It is not a question of wanting to do Scion in under 20 mins. It is just the smart decision to not invite Summoners given the many, many other (better) choices to fill a dps slot (all scouts minus bards, all other mages, monks, etc.). To make matters worse, my friend is a Conjy. You ever try to find a grp for two Summoners? Good luck. We have taken to “sneaking” him in the grp by me logging in my healer and telling ppl we are a package deal. So, my fully-mastered Necro rots (pun intended) while I play my Coercer. Hard to "have fun" playing a class when you can't find grps. Sad, sad state.

Aule

01-16-2009, 06:56 PM

<cite>007djdeadly wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have a lv 80 Necro and lv 80 Coercer, both fully mastered, etc. Let me tell you: Summoners are broke and the community knows it. Nearly impossible to find a grp with my Necro, even though he does pretty good dps. My Coercer gets a grp many times while he is still logging in. It is not a question of wanting to do Scion in under 20 mins. It is just the smart decision to not invite Summoners given the many, many other (better) choices to fill a dps slot (all scouts minus bards, all other mages, monks, etc.). To make matters worse, my friend is a Conjy. You ever try to find a grp for two Summoners? Good luck. We have taken to “sneaking” him in the grp by me logging in my healer and telling ppl we are a package deal. So, my fully-mastered Necro rots (pun intended) while I play my Coercer. Hard to "have fun" playing a class when you can't find grps. Sad, sad state.</blockquote>Quote For WinAll but one of the good summoners I used to know is now no longer playing a summoner.I don't know any assassins that have quit playing their assassin out of frustration with the class.

StaticLex

01-16-2009, 07:31 PM

<cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why Play either Summoner Class?Lets see....Because you enjoy the classes...If you enjoy them, then you are having fun...If you are having fun, then, why not play either summoner class?</blockquote>Asinine comments like this infuriate me more than anything else in these threads, because they're obviously spoken by people who don't have the slightest [Removed for Content] clue what summoners are up against. OR.. or.. they are completely and utterly obvlivious to what is going on around them. Either way it burns my pateince up in the blink of an eye.It is AMAZINGLY difficult to "have fun" as a summoner when you can't even get a [Removed for Content] group!DOYOUUNDERSTANDTHIS?

Jeepned2

01-16-2009, 11:30 PM

Please remember, this is from a Troub's point of view, so some may say shut up and go away. Here's my problem with the summoners for raiding.1. On the harder mobs (not even Named ones in some cases) the summoner's pet almost never make it though a complete fight. So once pet is gone, so is a fairly good portion of the summoner's DPS.2. For a summoner to really compete in the DPS race, they HAVE to be with the Troub. Anywhere else and forget it. This in not really a problem, but they are also competing with other classes for those 3 spots in the troub group. Yes three, plus me, my illusionist and a healer. This includes Wizards, Warlocks, Assassins and Rangers due to our de-hate buff. Which btw is being nerfed down to a useless 8% de-hate.3. Summoners have very poor personal ability to de-hate themselves.4. What little utility they do have has been given away to the tinkerers. My Troub has both FD and Call of the Tinker.Sorry folks, but until you get a big repair job, don't look for the higher end raiding guilds knocking on your doors asking you to come out and play.Edited because everyone knows that Troubs can't spell.

liveja

01-16-2009, 11:37 PM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>3. Summoners have very poor personal ability to de-hate themselves.4. What little utility they do have has been given away to the tinkerers. My Troub has both FD and Call of the Tinker.</blockquote>To me, these are the two biggest problems I have with the actual mechanics of the class.

Vexel

01-17-2009, 12:21 AM

Haha, this thread is actually fun to read, I'm not gonna mention my experience with playing my necro, why others QQ I'll be doing raids/instances getting set gear and masters.It just never ceases to amaze me that when there's an update coming out to retune a class ie, GU51 and fighter, threads like this pop up about how bad X class sucks, expecting for the developer's at the last minute to say "wait! they're right, give this class all they're asking for, stat!" without any testing. After the patch this will drift away into 3rd, 4rth, 5th, page oblivion, until another patch comes out retuning a class and skipping X class.

Bhow

01-17-2009, 01:04 AM

Just because I'm sick of reading this comment over and over...to the people saying.. Cuz you like the class, isnt that enough...Yes, I love my class. Been playing a conjuror since the RELEASE... longer than most of youBut I also really like to raid... And if I can't get a [Removed for Content] raid slot it doesn't matter how much I like the class, I remain annoyed.So PLEASE.... STOP making that comment. Its stupid and pointless.

StaticLex

01-17-2009, 02:26 AM

<cite>Vexel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>It just never ceases to amaze me that when there's an update coming out to retune a class ie, GU51 and fighter, threads like this pop up about how bad X class sucks, expecting for the developer's at the last minute to say "wait! they're right, give this class all they're asking for, stat!" without any testing. After the patch this will drift away into 3rd, 4rth, 5th, page oblivion, until another patch comes out retuning a class and skipping X class.</blockquote>I have already addressed this a page or two back. The devs play wack-a-mole with class balance rather than come up with a comprehensive plan that they can stick to over the long run. What you see here, is the same as what you're seeing with fighters, is the same as what you saw a year or two back when enchanters sucked.. Each class gets a turn eventually, and it's neverending. So, you're point isn't even really a point at all. It's a proven pattern of how soe apparently prefers to handle class balancing.

StaticLex

01-17-2009, 02:32 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>3. Summoners have very poor personal ability to de-hate themselves.4. What little utility they do have has been given away to the tinkerers. My Troub has both FD and Call of the Tinker.</blockquote>To me, these are the two biggest problems I have with the actual mechanics of the class.</blockquote>For #3 I'd suggest learning to play better. The one nice advantage of this class is the aggro is split between the pet and the controller. If that alone isn't a big enough help for you, I don't know what to say.For #4 I agree actually. I don't really care about FD but this class definitely needs a Call of Tinker SPELL to go with Call of the Hero.

hellfire

01-17-2009, 02:36 AM

<cite>Vexel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Haha, this thread is actually fun to read, I'm not gonna mention my experience with playing my necro, why others QQ I'll be doing raids/instances getting set gear and masters.It just never ceases to amaze me that when there's an update coming out to retune a class ie, GU51 and fighter, threads like this pop up about how bad X class sucks, expecting for the developer's at the last minute to say "wait! they're right, give this class all they're asking for, stat!" without any testing. After the patch this will drift away into 3rd, 4rth, 5th, page oblivion, until another patch comes out retuning a class and skipping X class.</blockquote>Ill be doing the same thing ...but fact still remains if i was makeing a raid i wouldnt include you or myself.Summoners been asking for help and its be acknowlegede some 8 months back that there are issues and we will be worked on.I was told personally we would prob be looked at after fighters by devs at fan faire....so be amazed all you want but this is a ongoing problem for the past 14 months or so and its a problem that will stay in the main spot light now that fighter fixes are almost done.

liveja

01-17-2009, 10:42 AM

<cite>stupid internet <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" /></cite>

liveja

01-17-2009, 10:51 AM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>3. Summoners have very poor personal ability to de-hate themselves.4. What little utility they do have has been given away to the tinkerers. My Troub has both FD and Call of the Tinker.</blockquote>To me, these are the two biggest problems I have with the actual mechanics of the class.</blockquote>For #3 I'd suggest learning to play better. The one nice advantage of this class is the aggro is split between the pet and the controller. If that alone isn't a big enough help for you, I don't know what to say.</blockquote>Forgive me, I was imprecise. First off, I was thinking of getting adds, not pulling aggro; secondly, I was only thinking of Conjys, & not Summoners as a whole.In any event, sometimes when I'm already dealing with a group of mobs, I get an add, & can't handle both the group & the add. It happened recently in Shimmering Cit; Root wasn't enough to deal with the add, & I couldn't keep the pet alive under the onslaught. I had no way of escaping, like a Wizzie has -- & even a Necro has FD for such situations.OTOH, I've lost count of the number of times I've pulled aggro from my Ad3 Fighter pet in its M2 Def Stance. That's more easily handled, but still a PITA. The bottom line, for me, is that I've found Wizzies much easier & more fun to play.

Cicadi

01-17-2009, 03:16 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>3. Summoners have very poor personal ability to de-hate themselves.4. What little utility they do have has been given away to the tinkerers. My Troub has both FD and Call of the Tinker.</blockquote>To me, these are the two biggest problems I have with the actual mechanics of the class.</blockquote>For #3 I'd suggest learning to play better. The one nice advantage of this class is the aggro is split between the pet and the controller. If that alone isn't a big enough help for you, I don't know what to say.</blockquote>Forgive me, I was imprecise. First off, I was thinking of getting adds, not pulling aggro; secondly, I was only thinking of Conjys, & not Summoners as a whole.In any event, sometimes when I'm already dealing with a group of mobs, I get an add, & can't handle both the group & the add. It happened recently in Shimmering Cit; Root wasn't enough to deal with the add, & I couldn't keep the pet alive under the onslaught. I had no way of escaping, like a Wizzie has -- & even a Necro has FD for such situations.OTOH, I've lost count of the number of times I've pulled aggro from my Ad3 Fighter pet in its M2 Def Stance. That's more easily handled, but still a PITA. The bottom line, for me, is that I've found Wizzies much easier & more fun to play.</blockquote>Yeah ae aggro can be a problem, especially if the tank is not a pally/zerker/sk. Hopefully the GU51 changes will mitigate this somewhat.In terms of soloing, I don't think there is much of an issue in that department, although we don't solo as well as sorcerers or enchanters. You are right that we (conjurors at least) lack the emergency abilities that other classes possess, but overall we solo fast and well.The problem is with grouping and raiding.

hellfire

01-17-2009, 03:53 PM

Cicadi

01-17-2009, 04:16 PM

<cite>Althena@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyone that thinks summoners are broken is ret arded, period.We have 2 conj and a necro in our raid force and they all parse in the top 5-6 (the necro is almost always top 3)We are NOT uber raiders we even still have issues with many mobs - but to say that the summoner classes need to be fixed is just halarious and anyone that thinks so needs to honestly, sincerly, learn how to play your class.THE ONLY thing that needs fixed is player perception. So many bad summoners have gotten people into the "summoners suck, lets get something else" view point.</blockquote>I really wish people would stop citing examples of specific players parsing well in comparision to others in their raid. The fact is that if you gave those same players the same level of gear and had them play a sorcerer/predator/rogue/enchanter/bard then they either would parse a lot more than they do at present or bring a whole lot more utility to the raid or both.You are saying that summoners are not the worst choice for DPS out of all the DPS classes? That we in fact bring a lot more to raids/groups than sup-par DPS? I would love to hear how you arrived at this conclusion, without reference to specific player skill.

Thunndar316

01-17-2009, 05:25 PM

StaticLex

01-17-2009, 08:03 PM

<cite>Althena@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are NOT uber raiders we even still have issues with many mobs -</blockquote>This is all the explanation that is really needed.

Jeepned2

01-17-2009, 09:27 PM

<cite>Althena@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyone that thinks summoners are broken is ret arded, period. We have 2 conj and a necro in our raid force and they all parse in the top 5-6 (the necro is almost always top 3)We are NOT uber raiders we even still have issues with many mobs - but to say that the summoner classes need to be fixed is just halarious and anyone that thinks so needs to honestly, sincerly, learn how to play your class.THE ONLY thing that needs fixed is player perception. So many bad summoners have gotten people into the "summoners suck, lets get something else" view point.</blockquote>With 2 conjurors and and necro in your raid force it was pretty easy to tell that you are "not uber raiders". I'm in a min/max raid guild and even if we had any conjurors or necros we sure wouldn't take 3 summoners....ever. You parse lower then the wizards, assassins, rangers and swashbucklers and bring almost no utility beneficial to the raid. But if I had to take one of you, that would be an easy choice, I'd take the necro. At least he can rez. On the higher end raids, your pet dies too quick and with the last summoner that we had, yes he'd parse in the top 10 for the trash mobs, but almost never made the parse on named mobs due to the lose of his pet. At the end of the zone he'd have pretty good zone-wide parse thanks to the trash mobs but if you look at just all of the named fights like in VP you would see that even the furies where beating him. But hey it's your class not mine, if that doesn't mean that your class is broken to you, well hell, who am I to tell you otherwise.

hellfire

01-18-2009, 03:43 PM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Althena@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyone that thinks summoners are broken is ret arded, period. We have 2 conj and a necro in our raid force and they all parse in the top 5-6 (the necro is almost always top 3)We are NOT uber raiders we even still have issues with many mobs - but to say that the summoner classes need to be fixed is just halarious and anyone that thinks so needs to honestly, sincerly, learn how to play your class.THE ONLY thing that needs fixed is player perception. So many bad summoners have gotten people into the "summoners suck, lets get something else" view point.</blockquote>With 2 conjurors and and necro in your raid force it was pretty easy to tell that you are "not uber raiders". I'm in a min/max raid guild and even if we had any conjurors or necros we sure wouldn't take 3 summoners....ever. You parse lower then the wizards, assassins, rangers and swashbucklers and bring almost no utility beneficial to the raid. But if I had to take one of you, that would be an easy choice, I'd take the necro. At least he can rez. On the higher end raids, your pet dies too quick and with the last summoner that we had, yes he'd parse in the top 10 for the trash mobs, but almost never made the parse on named mobs due to the lose of his pet. At the end of the zone he'd have pretty good zone-wide parse thanks to the trash mobs but if you look at just all of the named fights like in VP you would see that even the furies where beating him. But hey it's your class not mine, if that doesn't mean that your class is broken to you, well hell, who am I to tell you otherwise.</blockquote>And thats the thing ...being in the top 10 who cares.......bards are in the top 10.Being in top 5 ....who cares bacause what we bring to raid..another class can be in top 5 and still bring more to the raid...to enhance the whole raid................................................... .................................................. .................................................. ...................................Coh is not enhanceing the raidNecro rez is not enhanceing the raid when its not used because it much more benificial to bring 3-4 dirges for the buffs that they run with.Shards and hearts are not benifiting the raid....if no one asks for em let alone use em.

Compas

01-18-2009, 04:58 PM

Lets bring the two componenets that people are argueing togetehr and see the big and very unflattering picture. Summmoners have the potential(A.K.A. All master spells, mythical, full TSO lines for damage and all teh top end caster gear in the game, pluse a competant player behind... it might be too much to ask but hey we can assume for this arguement) to do resaonable top 10, 5 damage for a raid force. Then One looks at the raid suppoer that each provide and it falls far below pretty much every other class in the game that deals equal or more damage then they do. Hearts and shards as stated perviously should not be needed by any group or raid force otehrwise somethign is very wrong , COTH saves some time and an inconvienence, the Necro res when full mastered and aa'ed out is 48%health and power every 30 sec ok so this is very situational since if a raid force is succeededing then most likely people are not dieing but i will give in the off chance that bad things happen to good groups or raids then it may be useful But oh dirges can res other people and take away the res detrimental effect.This is not sumoners verse anyone its summoenrs verse game mechanics, itemization and class roles, sadley the Development team has fallen behind in addressing these issues for the summoner archtype makeing the class significantly less desirable for groups adn raids when if what is being looked for is dps choose a sorcerer/preditor class they bring the dps AND actually have some useful effect, Looking for strong buffs and support with resonable group/raid dps oh there we go again there are the Bards and the Enchanters classes. Lookng for debuffs once again the bards and then the rogues step in.And there in lies the issue there are so many other classes that can fill in the rolles that a summoner could do but not only do it better, more effiecently Oh and provide several other services. This idea that one compenent of the class is not related to the other is just an aweful misrepresentation of the class issues that Summoenrs have.Compas / Anjez80 Necromancer (retired)/ 80 TroubadorUnrest

Ellisandria

01-18-2009, 06:57 PM

My first ever character in EQ2 was a Necro and I loved playing her - until I reached 75+ and realised I couldn't get any groups for all the reasons people have mentioned. I got disheartened, rerolled to a Conjy and had exactly the same problem. For old time's sake I re-betrayed her and she's been sat gathering dust on my characters list, only to ever come out when I'm mentoring a guild newbie or just for nostalgia's sake.My Trouby, who is now my main, is NEVER short of groups. My friends list is extensive and I have managed to complete my epic, get a full set of T1 void armour and met so many nice folks because I was WANTED in groups because I could bring utility and do "stuff" that would benefit the other 5 people.The Summoner class is broken - anything we can do, another class can do better (or bring more utility doing it). When was the last time you heard "TSO group for (insert zone) looking for Necro or Conjy"? or "Maidens run looking for summoner"? It just doesn't happen. On the plus side, both are great if you want to solo ALL the time and don't want to interact with anyone else. They're an "easy" class to play (reasonably adequately) and with the right strategies can hold their own against tough mobs. You could even say they'd be a great "first class" for people being introduced to EQ2 - however - when you actually get into the bones of the game, we're just got so many issues that it becomes frustrating beyond belief.

StaticLex

01-18-2009, 08:40 PM

I am surprised so many people are willing to just shelve their toon and play another. Is that what you are paying for when you log into the game? I mean, to me the idea of simply ditching the charater I have played since the day the game launched because these people drag their feet is completely unacceptable. It's not like I haven't been patient either. Summoners have been in this situation through all of ROK and soon to be the third month of TSO with no help in sight. Summoner player or not, doesn't that strike anyone else as ridiculous? What other company can do this is and.. well, manage to stay in business? The cable company? lol Hell, even they show up within a month or two to fix a crappy reception.Anyway, the people who are willing to put up with this almost non-existant CS, from bug/class fixes to in-game help, is really astounding. I need to start a business and get some of them as my customers too, I'd have a cash cow for life. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Cele

01-18-2009, 09:43 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote>COTH is a fluff spell easily replaced by tinkering</blockquote>The fact that you don't know the difference between Call of the Hero and Call of the Tinkerer tells me you have absolutely no clue about Summoners.</blockquote>Call of the Hero: A teleports B to A. Call of the Tinkerer: B teleports to A. Either way, B gets to A.</blockquote>Ummm...not so fast. It is not that simple. CoH has additional benefits. For example, a group member got "stuck" in the water in Chel the other day. I used CoH to get him out. Had I used call of tinkerer, he and I would BOTH be stuck.There are many reasons why you want to bring another character to you rather than go to them. As a conjy and a tinkerer, I have the benefit of both. However, CoH is more beneficial to a group IMHO.

Noaani

01-18-2009, 10:25 PM

<cite>Celena wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ummm...not so fast. It is not that simple. CoH has additional benefits. For example, a group member got "stuck" in the water in Chel the other day. I used CoH to get him out. Had I used call of tinkerer, he and I would BOTH be stuck.</blockquote>The point that was being made would have meant that in this situation, the stuck player use CoT, not you.

Armawk

01-18-2009, 10:42 PM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am surprised so many people are willing to just shelve their toon and play another. Is that what you are paying for when you log into the game? I mean, to me the idea of simply ditching the charater I have played since the day the game launched because these people drag their feet is completely unacceptable. It's not like I haven't been patient either. Summoners have been in this situation through all of ROK and soon to be the third month of TSO with no help in sight. Summoner player or not, doesn't that strike anyone else as ridiculous? What other company can do this is and.. well, manage to stay in business? The cable company? lol Hell, even they show up within a month or two to fix a crappy reception.Anyway, the people who are willing to put up with this almost non-existant CS, from bug/class fixes to in-game help, is really astounding. I need to start a business and get some of them as my customers too, I'd have a cash cow for life. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Im sorry, but the complaints are more comparable to my, often annoyed, feelings that the satellite TV company here show too many crappy movies and not enough that I want to watch.

liveja

01-18-2009, 10:45 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am surprised so many people are willing to just shelve their toon and play another. Is that what you are paying for when you log into the game? I mean, to me the idea of simply ditching the charater I have played since the day the game launched because these people drag their feet is completely unacceptable. It's not like I haven't been patient either. Summoners have been in this situation through all of ROK and soon to be the third month of TSO with no help in sight. Summoner player or not, doesn't that strike anyone else as ridiculous? What other company can do this is and.. well, manage to stay in business? The cable company? lol Hell, even they show up within a month or two to fix a crappy reception.Anyway, the people who are willing to put up with this almost non-existant CS, from bug/class fixes to in-game help, is really astounding. I need to start a business and get some of them as my customers too, I'd have a cash cow for life. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Im sorry, but the complaints are more comparable to my, often annoyed, feelings that the satellite TV company here show too many crappy movies and not enough that I want to watch.</blockquote>IOW, if your local cable company is anything like mine, the complaint is entirely true & totally valid.

Allie

01-19-2009, 05:50 AM

OK, I have read all 11 pages of this now ... puh <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />First of all, your question "Why playing either Summoner Class?"I play a Conjuror from the day the game was released, this was my first game and I enjoyed the Conji class a lot. I have 2 Conjurors by now and a bunch full of other alts, which I mostly powerleveled by boxing with the Conji. CoH came in handy, I don't want to miss this, I still use it a lot to call my alts to places. But...People in this thread who say "I play this game for fun so I don't care what my class is capable off....":Ok I totally respect your decision to play this game without knowing what you do and the will to beat the hardest mobs in this game, but please stop responding to threads like this, because it is absolutely pointless. If you are in a family guild and you see everyone in an ONLINE game as your FRIEND, well, that's your decision, but don't blame the HC raiders for wanting to accomplish more....and guess what? We still have loads of fun and the better my parse looks, the more fun it is. Understand it or not but this thread is about game mechanics not about who sucks more, the casuals or the hc players.Now to the raiding summoners....Our UtilityCoH: Essential for raiding? NO, nothing we have, some of you people call utility, is any helpful at the endgame. Nobody asks for shards anymore, there are very very few situation someone sends me a tell for a shard and I bet if I wouldn't have this spell we would still win the fight. Most people are tinkerers, hardly anyone asks for a CoH anymore.In RoK it was even a very annoying ability, "oh Alliya please stay outside and call people in...". All these stupid raidzones within the heroic zones where hardly anyone could solo to the ZI. Thanks god we got banners now and that isn't the case anymore in ToS.So, utitily = not existentI don't want anymore shards or anything like this, also I don't want a melee buff groupwide, give us something desirable for Mages, which we and the group profits from. Maybe a groupwide reuse/faster casting (god they would love us) or let us buff critical mitigation, something like that.Our PetThis is our weakness! I also thought about the possibility to get rid of the mainpet as it is at the moment (like mentioned here before). The pet would need a lot of fixing to be helpful for us and our DPS.- We need a cure all added to the pet heal spell- Get rid of the pet specific gear, give the pet our stats- Let the pet inherit the buffs we get (example TC, UT) - It is bloody annoying to beg for UT on every raid, because preferably it is cast on Illusionists or even the SK over the Summoner. People do not see us as DPS, the Sorcers get everything, the Summoner has to beg. It sucks! Doesn't have to with the parse, yesterday I was between 1-3 on that certain fight all the time and still had to complain big time for getting buffs.- Get rid of that storage AA, instead let us recast our pet instantly with predefined buffs on it. - You are always talking about ZW parses, ZW sucks, the Wizards get up and continue their casting, the Summoners get up and have to recast their pet first, then all the buffs, big ZW lose even if the single parses would be higher you would lose the ZW because of that.- Fix pet pathing and OOS issues - Nothing more annoying then seeing the casting animation on your pet and finding out it is not casting because he is out of range or at the stairs, or has a pillar or whatever in his sight. I never called my pet so often than I do now. Then if I stand a bit too far away from a mob, example switchmaster, pentaclypse etc, my pet runs way out of range for wards and groupcures. Let the pet stand next to the caster, not behind, not anywhere else and it should be in sight all the time then, just do something.- Fix pet speed- And also give us pet illusions, the golem looks stupid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I also agree that mages are way out of balance now. They fix the chanters, suddenly they are DPS, so we can only hope they fix us soon and make us useful again.Really would like to see an official statement here what sony is doing and planning on this issue.

Allie

01-19-2009, 05:58 AM

Armawk

01-19-2009, 07:06 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Im sorry, but the complaints are more comparable to my, often annoyed, feelings that the satellite TV company here show too many crappy movies and not enough that I want to watch.</blockquote>IOW, if your local cable company is anything like mine, the complaint is entirely true & totally valid.</blockquote>lol true that.re the complaint, very likely it is true, and I am sure those who are serious raiders who say the class isnt working for that are correct. It certainly sounds like it. I hope they rebalance this soon for you guys (but hopefully without trashing things for the other play modes).

liveja

01-19-2009, 10:32 AM

I've said in the past that I don't believe Summoners are "broken", but merely lackluster. I still think that's largely true for both heroic instances & soloing. IMO, being "lackluster" is especially deadly for Conjies, who have almost no "o crap" abilities to get them out of really bad situations. This lack of shininess makes the class terminally dull to play, & even though I've put 60 levels into my own Conjy, I have no incentive at all to gain the last 20 levels; the class is simply too uber-boring to play.But I think it's increasingly obvious that game mechanics mean that Summoners -- Conjys in particular -- are not merely "less than stellar" in the raid game, but even a waste of a group space. You can claim your Conjy/Necro does awesome DPS, but the fact is that a Sorceror or Chanter is probably going to out-DPS you, & will be more useful to the rest of the raid as well.Things need to change.

Cele

01-19-2009, 01:10 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Celena wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ummm...not so fast. It is not that simple. CoH has additional benefits. For example, a group member got "stuck" in the water in Chel the other day. I used CoH to get him out. Had I used call of tinkerer, he and I would BOTH be stuck.</blockquote>The point that was being made would have meant that in this situation, the stuck player use CoT, not you.</blockquote>I didnt read it that way at all. I replied to a post Kendricke and others were discussing the difference between the two. It helps when you reply to quote in context.

hellfire

01-19-2009, 02:29 PM

Here is my list of what should be corrected.1: Share owners stats/modifiers with the pet.Every modifier in game should be attached to pet so that we as a class recieve 100 pct benifit from gear.Exception would be +BOE.2: Pets need ui window that has detrimental effects viewable in it .Along with that summoners need a cure all spell ability.Can be attached to Cure arcane that we receive with 10 sec reuse.3: A more intelligent pet ui needs to be implimented.Or revert magic leash AA to KoS beta where the pet is rooted in place with this AA.....Or revert back to pathing system befor Kos when this wasnt any problem at all.4: Conj specifically Seed line should proc off spells and should be reverted back to a DD as it was prior to change.5: Have CoH able to summon anyone from anywhere in norrath.6: Have a health shard to go along with power shard.....raid wide version to.Special new ability Conj gets new spell/ability where all temp pets are linked to the conj and will recieve HP increase and AE immunity...All classes temp pets in raid would be AE immune as long as conj is alive and buff is active.....possibly increase base duration of these pets by x%.Any temp pet that dies due to repost/parry/damage shield or any direct damage and such will have its hate transfered to the conj......instead of its original owner.The owner still is credited with the temp pets dps as well as the hate that is accrued from nomal combat/despawning through normal combat.Necros can have ability to increase the damage of all pets/temp pets as well they will receive lifetap to group of the owner of the temp/main pets......hate from the life tap will be siphoned to necro.New Hate position spell and or hate siphon to pet may be needed.

Allie

01-20-2009, 08:29 AM

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is my list of what should be corrected.1: Share owners stats/modifiers with the pet.Every modifier in game should be attached to pet so that we as a class recieve 100 pct benifit from gear.Exception would be +BOE.2: Pets need ui window that has detrimental effects viewable in it .Along with that summoners need a cure all spell ability.Can be attached to Cure arcane that we receive with 10 sec reuse.3: A more intelligent pet ui needs to be implimented.Or revert magic leash AA to KoS beta where the pet is rooted in place with this AA.....Or revert back to pathing system befor Kos when this wasnt any problem at all.4: Conj specifically Seed line should proc off spells and should be reverted back to a DD as it was prior to change.5: Have CoH able to summon anyone from anywhere in norrath.6: Have a health shard to go along with power shard.....raid wide version to.Special new ability Conj gets new spell/ability where all temp pets are linked to the conj and will recieve HP increase and AE immunity...All classes temp pets in raid would be AE immune as long as conj is alive and buff is active.....possibly increase base duration of these pets by x%.Any temp pet that dies due to repost/parry/damage shield or any direct damage and such will have its hate transfered to the conj......instead of its original owner.The owner still is credited with the temp pets dps as well as the hate that is accrued from nomal combat/despawning through normal combat.Necros can have ability to increase the damage of all pets/temp pets as well they will receive lifetap to group of the owner of the temp/main pets......hate from the life tap will be siphoned to necro.New Hate position spell and or hate siphon to pet may be needed.</blockquote>I am really not keen to get another shard, our utility should be more in form of a permanent group buff which really helps in raids and makes us more desirable.Furthermore to your and my list the buffs that really increase our DPS:Plane Shift:Casting 3.0sec Recast 12minBlazing Manifestation:Casting 3.0secRecast 43.0secElemental Untity:Casting 2.0secRecast 1.30 minshould have:- castable while running or- shorter Reuse Time (for PS)- Faster CastingThe wizard can cast his buffs in 0.44sec, why can't we? (numbers are without any +reuse, castspeed)Iceshape, Velium Gift, Surge of Ro etc:Casting 0,44secRecast 1.21 min

thog_zork

01-20-2009, 08:42 AM

i would also suggest:1. changing the fireshield line into something usefull !2. in addition to the temp pet stuff hellfire outlined: make temp pets either affected by caster spell crit&gear just like they were dots or affected by pet enhancing gear! i would preffer the first solution because you should drop this concept of pet-caster specific gear and give us SHARED STATS ! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />3. revamp the conjuror ALL-Resistance buff to include a nice caster-used-bonus like reuse/recovery of hostile spells !4.give each summoner a group wide damage proc that triggers of any attack e.g. conjuror blazing manifestation should be made group wide !

Cmos

01-20-2009, 09:25 AM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why Play either Summoner Class?Lets see....Because you enjoy the classes...If you enjoy them, then you are having fun...If you are having fun, then, why not play either summoner class?</blockquote>Asinine comments like this infuriate me more than anything else in these threads, because they're obviously spoken by people who don't have the slightest [Removed for Content] clue what summoners are up against. OR.. or.. they are completely and utterly obvlivious to what is going on around them. Either way it burns my pateince up in the blink of an eye.It is AMAZINGLY difficult to "have fun" as a summoner when you can't even get a [Removed for Content] group!DOYOUUNDERSTANDTHIS?</blockquote>You cannot blame your class choice for not being able to get a group... that is asinine. I have a level 32 conjy and I am able to get groups with him no problem at all... why you aren't able to do the same, I really don't know.. possibly could be your bad attitude... just a guess...and as far as my post goes, That is a VERY valid reason to play a class. If you are too ignorant to see that... sorry for you.

thog_zork

01-20-2009, 09:39 AM

<cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>You cannot blame your class choice for not being able to get a group... that is asinine. I have a level 32 conjy and I am able to get groups with him no problem at all... why you aren't able to do the same, I really don't know.. possibly could be your bad attitude... just a guess...and as far as my post goes, That is a VERY valid reason to play a class. If you are too ignorant to see that... sorry for you.</blockquote>But static is right about the fact that you do not get a group easily at 80 for tso instances. go level up your summoner and see how it feels to be LFG for 2-3 hours at 80 to get a tso group!you do not ever see a group looking for summoners ... meele dds are general preffered !

Armawk

01-20-2009, 11:08 AM

<cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>You cannot blame your class choice for not being able to get a group... that is asinine. I have a level 32 conjy and I am able to get groups with him no problem at all... why you aren't able to do the same, I really don't know.. possibly could be your bad attitude... just a guess...</blockquote>Come on! you simply cannot make judgemental comments about people based on level 30s character play when they are obviously talking about cap/hardcore group and raid problems.Its very valid to say you find the class enjoyable for casual play, but to dismiss other peoples concerns outright is ridiculous

Cmos

01-20-2009, 11:12 AM

<cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>You cannot blame your class choice for not being able to get a group... that is asinine. I have a level 32 conjy and I am able to get groups with him no problem at all... why you aren't able to do the same, I really don't know.. possibly could be your bad attitude... just a guess...and as far as my post goes, That is a VERY valid reason to play a class. If you are too ignorant to see that... sorry for you.</blockquote>But static is right about the fact that you do not get a group easily at 80 for tso instances. go level up your summoner and see how it feels to be LFG for 2-3 hours at 80 to get a tso group!you do not ever see a group looking for summoners ... meele dds are general preffered !</blockquote>I'd glady take most summoners(aside from players with a bad rep) into a TSO dungeon... I see regular parses of 3-6k from summoners in TSO instance groups, with hearts or shards, coth, etc... I don't see any reason anyone would specifically boycott a summoner class from their groups...While you may have game mechanic issues with your class... so does every other class... however, being arrogant, such as some other folks in this post, and ranting about it on the boards does nothing... send /feedback, /petition, /bug, etc, etc...bottom line... a question was posed, I answered. If my answer was not to your liking, there is no need to be rude about it, simply ignore it.../sighEDIT: on a side note... you keep saying "Get' a group... how about being a little proactive and "Make" a group?

thog_zork

01-20-2009, 11:34 AM

de lori

01-20-2009, 11:48 AM

What id like to see for conj:(i'll preface this with ....these values maybe off....but the effects are something id like to see)* Fixing magma seed to any succesful attack and a DD * Elemental Unity a group dmg proc. (we need mage group desirability.....id even take a small reduction in EUs dmg to get it changed to a group proc)* dumbfire pets immune to dmg unless direct and effected by either pet stat gear or caster gear (preferably the latter).* pyro....make it cast from range..... and add a spell debuff to it.....debuffs spell resists by 2500 at master 1 * on termination pyro increases base dmg AoE by 5% for 10sec (perhaps 10m radius)...will not trigger if pet is directly targeted and killed...or cancelled* aqueous....add a mitigation debuff to it.....debuffs physical mitigation by 2500 at master 1 * on termination aqueous increases DA/melee crit by 5% AoE 10sec (same as above)* shards 1k power at M1 (perhaps this is too much...currently returns 417 power)...3% chance to proc dispersion when clicked.* attach a cure all to our pet heal and add the trauma,arcane,nox,elemental,curse icons below his name/HP bar. * add a Major Strength and Offensive skills debuff to our snare* add an AE debuff that reduces base dmg by 10% and int by 200ish* Triple the dmg on our dmg shield....maybe have it add threat to target (although i admit moving away from transfers in GU51 this might not be appropriate)overall this adds very little in the way of personal dps....but i think would add the kind of utility that would make a conj a desirable choice for group and raid.

Bhow

01-20-2009, 12:00 PM

<cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>You cannot blame your class choice for not being able to get a group... that is asinine. I have a level 32 conjy and I am able to get groups with him no problem at all... why you aren't able to do the same, I really don't know.. possibly could be your bad attitude... just a guess...and as far as my post goes, That is a VERY valid reason to play a class. If you are too ignorant to see that... sorry for you.</blockquote>But static is right about the fact that you do not get a group easily at 80 for tso instances. go level up your summoner and see how it feels to be LFG for 2-3 hours at 80 to get a tso group!you do not ever see a group looking for summoners ... meele dds are general preffered !</blockquote>I'd glady take most summoners(aside from players with a bad rep) into a TSO dungeon... I see regular parses of 3-6k from summoners in TSO instance groups, with hearts or shards, coth, etc... I don't see any reason anyone would specifically boycott a summoner class from their groups...While you may have game mechanic issues with your class... so does every other class... however, being arrogant, such as some other folks in this post, and ranting about it on the boards does nothing... send /feedback, /petition, /bug, etc, etc...bottom line... a question was posed, I answered. If my answer was not to your liking, there is no need to be rude about it, simply ignore it.../sighEDIT: on a side note... you keep saying "Get' a group... how about being a little proactive and "Make" a group?</blockquote>K...ima repeat this again for people who seem to be missing the point...The POINT people are making is NOT that the class is impossible to play WELL, but rather that other classes can EASILY replace us and bring more to the group...AGAIN for the people who can't seem to fathom this....Take for example, a brigand. A Brigand brings solid, stable dps to a group, as well as massssive debuffs... That is unquieAn enchanter... All the obvious group buffs, and solid parse.Predators / Sorcerers ... Massive dps.Bards... Massive amounts of very benifical buffs.Tanks.. ObviousHealers... Obvious..Now, I ask you... WHY would you EVER take a conjuror over any of those... CoH?! lolOooo YAY, I can save the 3 min it takes to run back to the group if you fall somewhere....Now, I ask you... WHY would you EVER take a necromance over any of those... Revive?! lolGet a [Removed for Content] dirge.. they revive and bring more buffs =PDPS? Pfft take a sorcerer or a Predator... Theyll outparse us anyday.. Hell bring an enchanter.. they parse ALMOST as well, AND bring useful buffs.SO the POINT is that we dont have any CLASS SPECIFIC utility / reason to bring us... anywhere. Not that the class is incapable of anything.And Im sorry, but playing a class to level 30 does NOT give you any right or ability to judge a class... Anything from 1-30 can easily be done with any group setup. (Solo/Heroic content)Not to mention you OBVIOUSLY have no idea about any raid content.So PLEASE for my sanity... either when someone posts bring something construtive to the conversation, or stop saying the class is "fine". Just cuz youd bring one doesnt make us desireable....

liveja

01-20-2009, 12:09 PM

<cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>While you may have game mechanic issues with your class... so does every other class... </blockquote>After 3 years & 80 levels of Swashy-ness, I'm *still* looking for those "game mechanics issues" my class has. Perhaps you could tell me what they are, since you know that "every other class" has them?

Cmos

01-20-2009, 12:12 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>While you may have game mechanic issues with your class... so does every other class... </blockquote>After 3 years & 80 levels of Swashy-ness, I'm *still* looking for those "game mechanics issues" my class has. Perhaps you could tell me what they are, since you know that "every other class" has them?</blockquote>Since you want to argue semantics...<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=423968">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=423968</a>

thog_zork

01-20-2009, 12:31 PM

liveja

01-20-2009, 12:45 PM

<cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>While you may have game mechanic issues with your class... so does every other class... </blockquote>After 3 years & 80 levels of Swashy-ness, I'm *still* looking for those "game mechanics issues" my class has. Perhaps you could tell me what they are, since you know that "every other class" has them?</blockquote>Since you want to argue semantics...<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=423968">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=423968</a></blockquote>I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing things that actually make playing the class less than enjoyable. You know, like REAL issues that actually affect game play <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />SOH isn't an "issue", because no Swashy of whom I'm aware ever uses it anyway. We never needed it, & function just fine without it. Is it worthless? Totally. Do we care? Yea, somewhat, because we'd like to have a level 80 "class defining spell" like everyone else has. Is it an "issue" that makes Swashies cry themselves to sleep at night, or post on the general forums over? No, not at all. We'd all like it fixed, but I don't know of ANY Swashy who says, "OMG SOE I can't get group spots, FIX SOH!!!!!!1111!!!!!"The epic issue is largely/wholly going away after LU51 -- not that it's being "fixed", it's just changing -- so that will effectively leave us with the overall non-issue of SOH. If you really want to compare that paltry bit of fluff "issue" to those affecting Summoners, be my guest, but please don't expect anyone to take it seriously <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />BTW, I agree with those who are telling you to put some more levels on your Conjy before you speak of how easy it is to get groups. At level 32, you don't even NEED groups <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> -- go farm the freekin' Crawler Queen in ROV for fat loots <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> Get to 80, then we can talk some more -- but your experience at level 32 is kinda irrelevant to the subject at hand, mainly because the majority of the subject at hand involves raiding & grouping T8 content.

Cmos

01-20-2009, 12:57 PM

<cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>While you may have game mechanic issues with your class... so does every other class... </blockquote>After 3 years & 80 levels of Swashy-ness, I'm *still* looking for those "game mechanics issues" my class has. Perhaps you could tell me what they are, since you know that "every other class" has them?</blockquote>Since you want to argue semantics...<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=423968">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=423968</a></blockquote>WOW ... 2 issues one is mythic not powerfull enough and the other about ONE useless ability...I think you failed in proving your point !</blockquote>lol whatever, the post is in your class forum...

Cmos

01-20-2009, 01:07 PM

<cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>You cannot blame your class choice for not being able to get a group... that is asinine. I have a level 32 conjy and I am able to get groups with him no problem at all... why you aren't able to do the same, I really don't know.. possibly could be your bad attitude... just a guess...and as far as my post goes, That is a VERY valid reason to play a class. If you are too ignorant to see that... sorry for you.</blockquote>But static is right about the fact that you do not get a group easily at 80 for tso instances. go level up your summoner and see how it feels to be LFG for 2-3 hours at 80 to get a tso group!you do not ever see a group looking for summoners ... meele dds are general preffered !</blockquote>I'd glady take most summoners(aside from players with a bad rep) into a TSO dungeon... I see regular parses of 3-6k from summoners in TSO instance groups, with hearts or shards, coth, etc... I don't see any reason anyone would specifically boycott a summoner class from their groups...While you may have game mechanic issues with your class... so does every other class... however, being arrogant, such as some other folks in this post, and ranting about it on the boards does nothing... send /feedback, /petition, /bug, etc, etc...bottom line... a question was posed, I answered. If my answer was not to your liking, there is no need to be rude about it, simply ignore it.../sighEDIT: on a side note... you keep saying "Get' a group... how about being a little proactive and "Make" a group?</blockquote>K...ima repeat this again for people who seem to be missing the point...The POINT people are making is NOT that the class is impossible to play WELL, but rather that other classes can EASILY replace us and bring more to the group...AGAIN for the people who can't seem to fathom this....Take for example, a brigand. A Brigand brings solid, stable dps to a group, as well as massssive debuffs... That is unquieAn enchanter... All the obvious group buffs, and solid parse.Predators / Sorcerers ... Massive dps.Bards... Massive amounts of very benifical buffs.Tanks.. ObviousHealers... Obvious..Now, I ask you... WHY would you EVER take a conjuror over any of those... CoH?! lolOooo YAY, I can save the 3 min it takes to run back to the group if you fall somewhere....Now, I ask you... WHY would you EVER take a necromance over any of those... Revive?! lolGet a [Removed for Content] dirge.. they revive and bring more buffs =PDPS? Pfft take a sorcerer or a Predator... Theyll outparse us anyday.. Hell bring an enchanter.. they parse ALMOST as well, AND bring useful buffs.SO the POINT is that we dont have any CLASS SPECIFIC utility / reason to bring us... anywhere. Not that the class is incapable of anything.And Im sorry, but playing a class to level 30 does NOT give you any right or ability to judge a class... Anything from 1-30 can easily be done with any group setup. (Solo/Heroic content)Not to mention you OBVIOUSLY have no idea about any raid content.So PLEASE for my sanity... either when someone posts bring something construtive to the conversation, or stop saying the class is "fine". Just cuz youd bring one doesnt make us desireable....</blockquote>Why are you asking me all these questions?? I OBVIOUSLY have no idea what I'm talking about......But I did enjoy the read, thanks much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Allie

01-20-2009, 01:18 PM

<cite>Cmos@Butch</cite><blockquote>You cannot blame your class choice for not being able to get a group... that is asinine. I have a level 32 conjy and I am able to get groups with him no problem at all... why you aren't able to do the same, I really don't know.. possibly could be your bad attitude... just a guess...and as far as my post goes, That is a VERY valid reason to play a class. If you are too ignorant to see that... sorry for you.</blockquote>Ok let me repeat this, you have a .... LVL 32??? ... Conjuror and want to tell us the class has no problems?I totally respect that you like playing the class und you get groups at lvl 32, because usually at this level people are happy to get any groupmembers at all anyways.But sorry, if you wanna discuss the real issues with us come back when you are 80 at least for 3 months kthxbye

Cmos

01-20-2009, 01:22 PM

<cite>Allie@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butch</cite><blockquote>You cannot blame your class choice for not being able to get a group... that is asinine. I have a level 32 conjy and I am able to get groups with him no problem at all... why you aren't able to do the same, I really don't know.. possibly could be your bad attitude... just a guess...and as far as my post goes, That is a VERY valid reason to play a class. If you are too ignorant to see that... sorry for you.</blockquote>Ok let me repeat this, you have a .... LVL 32??? ... Conjuror and want to tell us the class has no problems?I totally respect that you like playing the class und you get groups at lvl 32, because usually at this level people are happy to get any groupmembers at all anyways.But sorry, if you wanna discuss the real issues with us come back when you are 80 at least for 3 months kthxbye</blockquote>/sigh, another blast, thanks I appreciate it... you guys don't get it do... you're so wrapped up in your "issues" I agree I don't have the experince of playing a level 80 summoner, nor did I ever claim it. I am speaking of my experiences leading groups, studying parses, and knowing what class types are capable of... if you want to blow me off because I don't have a level 80 summoner... whatever... good luck getting your issues fixed.

Allie

01-20-2009, 01:22 PM

<cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd glady take most summoners(aside from players with a bad rep) into a TSO dungeon... I see regular parses of 3-6k from summoners in TSO instance groups, with hearts or shards, coth, etc... I don't see any reason anyone would specifically boycott a summoner class from their groups...While you may have game mechanic issues with your class... so does every other class... however, being arrogant, such as some other folks in this post, and ranting about it on the boards does nothing... send /feedback, /petition, /bug, etc, etc...bottom line... a question was posed, I answered. If my answer was not to your liking, there is no need to be rude about it, simply ignore it.../sighEDIT: on a side note... you keep saying "Get' a group... how about being a little proactive and "Make" a group?</blockquote>What do u think are forums for? These are official Sony forums, so we Summoners want to communicate with Sony, that's what they for. Unfortunately there hasn't been any official response to all the problems yet except from a few month ago, that Sony is aware of the issues and will fix the class after TSO is released.Hurray, now they decided to fix fighters, all we want is a statement what and when we will be changed so we know if it is really worth it to hang on to that class or better reroll which I prefer not to.Edited: bec my English sucks lol

Yimway

01-20-2009, 01:41 PM

Sorry to inform you summoners...The ludicrously broken t2 robe that was allowing you to parse so high since expansion was just ninja-nerfed today.While I'm not a fan of gear fixing classes, fixing of this robe will only further open the dps gap and continue to press on the need for developer attention that has been cried out for in this thread.

Cmos

01-20-2009, 01:52 PM

<cite>Allie@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd glady take most summoners(aside from players with a bad rep) into a TSO dungeon... I see regular parses of 3-6k from summoners in TSO instance groups, with hearts or shards, coth, etc... I don't see any reason anyone would specifically boycott a summoner class from their groups...While you may have game mechanic issues with your class... so does every other class... however, being arrogant, such as some other folks in this post, and ranting about it on the boards does nothing... send /feedback, /petition, /bug, etc, etc...bottom line... a question was posed, I answered. If my answer was not to your liking, there is no need to be rude about it, simply ignore it.../sighEDIT: on a side note... you keep saying "Get' a group... how about being a little proactive and "Make" a group?</blockquote>What do u think are forums for? These are official Sony forums, so we Summoners want to communicate with Sony, that's what they for. Unfortunately there hasn't been any official response to all the problems yet except from a few month ago, that Sony is aware of the issues and will fix the class after TSO is released.Hurray, now they decided to fix fighters, all we want is a statement what and when we will be changed so we know if it is really worth it to hang on to that class or better reroll which I prefer not to.Edited: bec my English sucks lol</blockquote>Well they are Community forums for the community to communicate with each other, not for us to communicate with devs... /feedback, /bug, /petition are the tools used to communicate with devs... but I know nothing, so why ask me?

Bhow

01-20-2009, 02:07 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry to inform you summoners...The ludicrously broken t2 robe that was allowing you to parse so high since expansion was just ninja-nerfed today.While I'm not a fan of gear fixing classes, fixing of this robe will only further open the dps gap and continue to press on the need for developer attention that has been cried out for in this thread.</blockquote>I, personally, am glad for the fix. I, however, DO NOT APPRECIATE the change not being in the patch noted. Ninja changes are NOT cool. Ever.Items should NEVER create CLASS balance. What they *need* to do, as has been suggested time and time again, is to have our pets have our crit / stats. That alone would more or less close the dps gap. I have close to 100% spell crit, yet the highest I ever get on my average crit is close to 60%....40% crit missing is ~12% Base damage, about what the robe was giving people =PAnd for those curious why I hated that robe, it made people *think* summoners were fine, based on numbers, because I mean really, who EVER looks at the break downs *sigh*10-12% of your dps from an item is just... dumb.And Cmos, Im not trying to be a jerk. These are well known, and well presented class issues, and having people who really dont understand the class saying were fine removes developer attention. We are NOT fine. We DO need work.Your claim as to liking the class matters is accurate, and tbh, most of the conjys here.. the only reason we STILL play this class is because we like it, or because we dont feel like jumpin through the hoops to main change. The issue is, as Ive stated before, I also like to group and raid. Groups, admitedly, are less of an issue. Though still, I dont ever see people LF a summoner, I usually can get in as just dps. Raiding, however, is another story. As has been stated many times prior.Soo even though I love the class, I also really enjoy raiding. And If I cant find a raid guild that will take a conjy...Well. It sucks. Ive been lucky so far. I know a lot that are not so fortunate however.

Aule

01-20-2009, 02:39 PM

I think part of the lack of desirability for summoners comes from the lack of desirability for mages in general in casual pickup groups. I don't mean pickup groups of other friends also in high-end guilds. I'm referring to non-mythical characters of all classes that have some smattering of legendary gear, maybe some fabled from a prior expansion. The casual crowd. My playtime is odd, I PUG a lot, often late at night on Guk, so population is pretty poor. When PUG'ing we've got these considerations: You You're obviously filling a slot Tank Are they any good? Maybe, maybe not, and maybe you're still looking for one while you fill rest of group. Healer(s) Did you get a darn good one who's mythical'd with raid gear and needs shards for some reason? If not you probably want 2 because you don't know the tank you'll end up with. DPS If you're pulling in low end characters, there isn't a huge disparity in their dps. A lot of time you're going to see people in the 1-2k dps range, maybe 3k if you're lucky, so you've got to consider what else they offer. Scouts: don't immediately die upon pulling aggro Bards - obvious group buffs Brigand - tremendous debuffs, helps catch group dps up Assassin/ranger/swash - should be good dps Mages: generally die when they pull aggro Enchanter - power regen and good-excellent damage Sorcerer - pulls aggro and dies or else does poor dam, that or fight isn't long enough to ramp up properly Summoner - less damage than enchanter (that actually tries to dps) or sorcerer In general mages are contraindicated in PUG's do to low survivability and not putting out higher dps in compensation. Then you get fights like crucible that reflect spells, you don't see any fights that reflect autoattack.

Cicadi

01-20-2009, 02:58 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think part of the lack of desirability for summoners comes from the lack of desirability for mages in general in casual pickup groups. I don't mean pickup groups of other friends also in high-end guilds. I'm referring to non-mythical characters of all classes that have some smattering of legendary gear, maybe some fabled from a prior expansion. The casual crowd. My playtime is odd, I PUG a lot, often late at night on Guk, so population is pretty poor. When PUG'ing we've got these considerations: You You're obviously filling a slot Tank Are they any good? Maybe, maybe not, and maybe you're still looking for one while you fill rest of group. Healer(s) Did you get a darn good one who's mythical'd with raid gear and needs shards for some reason? If not you probably want 2 because you don't know the tank you'll end up with. DPS If you're pulling in low end characters, there isn't a huge disparity in their dps. A lot of time you're going to see people in the 1-2k dps range, maybe 3k if you're lucky, so you've got to consider what else they offer. Scouts: don't immediately die upon pulling aggro Bards - obvious group buffs Brigand - tremendous debuffs, helps catch group dps up Assassin/ranger/swash - should be good dps Mages: generally die when they pull aggro Enchanter - power regen and good-excellent damage Sorcerer - pulls aggro and dies or else does poor dam, that or fight isn't long enough to ramp up properly Summoner - less damage than enchanter (that actually tries to dps) or sorcerer In general mages are contraindicated in PUG's do to low survivability and not putting out higher dps in compensation. Then you get fights like crucible that reflect spells, you don't see any fights that reflect autoattack.</blockquote>Yes this is largely true. I know that when I'm forming groups I will prioritize in the order you listed.Also, though it sucks about the robe getting fixed before our issues are addressed, it clearly was broken and the item made a mockery of progression as it was.On a side note, the Master in crucible and similar mobs do not reflect spell damage but rather effects only. So you can still dps on those fights, just don't cast any stuns or sifles.

Yimway

01-20-2009, 03:17 PM

<cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I, personally, am glad for the fix. I, however, DO NOT APPRECIATE the change not being in the patch noted. Ninja changes are NOT cool. Ever.Items should NEVER create CLASS balance. What they *need* to do, as has been suggested time and time again, is to have our pets have our crit / stats. That alone would more or less close the dps gap. I have close to 100% spell crit, yet the highest I ever get on my average crit is close to 60%....40% crit missing is ~12% Base damage, about what the robe was giving people =PAnd for those curious why I hated that robe, it made people *think* summoners were fine, based on numbers, because I mean really, who EVER looks at the break downs *sigh*10-12% of your dps from an item is just... dumb.</blockquote>Couldn't agree more. I've been advocating this change since shortly after RoK launch. My only guess is the difficulty of coding this is a problem.This is why I liked someone else's suggestion of 'merging' with the pet. Sincer there is already some code related to gifting the pet's spells to your hotbars, if thos spells also get you're bonuses, it could atleast be an improvment.You've still got issues of the pet and you are no longer casting at the same time, but a static bonus to those abilities could compensate for it.The only excuse for the dev team to ignore this issue for so long is, it just simply isn't an easy fix and they feel it isn't significant enough as the unsimple things they are working on now (Fighter NGE).

StaticLex

01-20-2009, 03:40 PM

I am suspicious of the idea of combining pet and controller spell stats. I have about 70% spell crit now (don't raid) and 700-ish BOE. My pet has at least 20% spell crit and around 700 BOE as well. If we were combined I'd (conjuror toon as a whole) have almost 100% spell crit and 1400 BOE without raiding? It seems to me that gear or AAs might have to be nerfed if this change were to happen. This is just armchair speculating on my part though, I have no idea what kind of impact a change like this would actually have on play.And a change like this still doesn't address the lack of comparable utility to brig/swash.

Bhow

01-20-2009, 03:58 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I, personally, am glad for the fix. I, however, DO NOT APPRECIATE the change not being in the patch noted. Ninja changes are NOT cool. Ever.Items should NEVER create CLASS balance. What they *need* to do, as has been suggested time and time again, is to have our pets have our crit / stats. That alone would more or less close the dps gap. I have close to 100% spell crit, yet the highest I ever get on my average crit is close to 60%....40% crit missing is ~12% Base damage, about what the robe was giving people =PAnd for those curious why I hated that robe, it made people *think* summoners were fine, based on numbers, because I mean really, who EVER looks at the break downs *sigh*10-12% of your dps from an item is just... dumb.</blockquote>Couldn't agree more. I've been advocating this change since shortly after RoK launch. My only guess is the difficulty of coding this is a problem.This is why I liked someone else's suggestion of 'merging' with the pet. Sincer there is already some code related to gifting the pet's spells to your hotbars, if thos spells also get you're bonuses, it could atleast be an improvment.You've still got issues of the pet and you are no longer casting at the same time, but a static bonus to those abilities could compensate for it.The only excuse for the dev team to ignore this issue for so long is, it just simply isn't an easy fix and they feel it isn't significant enough as the unsimple things they are working on now (Fighter NGE).</blockquote>This is going to be one of those no offence kinda comments, so be warned =PPersonally, I think the idea of merging with the pet is dumb. Its one of the *few* parts of this class that isnt broken lol If were casting for our pet... what the HELL is the point of the pet lol. May as well just be a sorcerer =PPersonally, idc how "hard" it is to implement. Its one of those, Id rather see it done right than get a half-arsed fix... *cough* the new gear *cough*I, personally, am alright with the pet spell gear, except for one part... generally, though the pet benifits, you lose some. ie, Enthralling Earjewel of the Abyss: +1 crit +25 BOE you, +3 crit + 115 spell damage pet. This is a solid pet item, but I lost crit and spell damage to use it... And pick and choose kinda stuff sucks. In the end, weve just shuffled around the issues. Well still have 60% crit, except it will be 60% us, 60% pet while the sorcerers and chanters are getting 100%....Not an actual fix.This DOES NOT MEAN there shouldnt be summoner specific loot in the game. I personally LOVE the Staff of Elemental Mastery. Its what Summoner loot should be imo. Another good example is the TSO Shard shoulders (any form), 5,8,10% BD to you AND pet.You and your pet essentially gain EQUALLY from that itemSo, in the end, either I would like to see more balanced items (equal benifit for you and pet, and on par with NORMAL mage loot, so +7 crit you = +7 crit pet too) or have the pet have our stats. Dont really care, will have the same effect. But this stuck pickin and choosing between you and pet crap is dumb.(Sorry if its kinda ranty, havent slept in a while)

Yimway

01-20-2009, 04:22 PM

<cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is going to be one of those no offence kinda comments, so be warned =PPersonally, I think the idea of merging with the pet is dumb. Its one of the *few* parts of this class that isnt broken lol If were casting for our pet... what the HELL is the point of the pet lol. May as well just be a sorcerer =PPersonally, idc how "hard" it is to implement. Its one of those, Id rather see it done right than get a half-arsed fix... *cough* the new gear *cough*I, personally, am alright with the pet spell gear, except for one part... generally, though the pet benifits, you lose some. ie, Enthralling Earjewel of the Abyss: +1 crit +25 BOE you, +3 crit + 115 spell damage pet. This is a solid pet item, but I lost crit and spell damage to use it... And pick and choose kinda stuff sucks. In the end, weve just shuffled around the issues. Well still have 60% crit, except it will be 60% us, 60% pet while the sorcerers and chanters are getting 100%....Not an actual fix.</blockquote>Can't offend me... I basically agree with you. The pet stat gear nearly every piece is sacrificing master benefits for pet benefits, and this is not the answer to the problem.I'd prefer the pet and master sharing stats, but for this to be ignored for this long of a duration makes me suspect the barrier to preventing this from being done already is an inherent code design issue in how master/pets are built in the game logic. My fear is, it hasn't happened yet, cause the barrier of entry is so high they're looking for other ways to address it without doing what makes the best sense.I'd accept the merging only under the acknowledgment that stat sharing was an impossibility. It's been simply the next best solution I've seen. And again, addressing it via items I'm very against. No class should be 'fixed' with itemization.

Bhow

01-20-2009, 04:40 PM

Just so its here, the reason I am so opposed to merging, besides the fact that youd have to do 2x the work and it kinda ruins the class, is becuase one of the few nice things we do get class wise is that no matter what, your pet can pretty much always be casting. Meaning when you have to go do something on a raid... say... hourglass, your pet is still in there dpsing, even while your runnin around. By merging, this could become a bit more of a PITA. Id rather not lose one of the few benifits of the class just to get the crit. Fix it. And fix it right. The first time.

Thunndar316

01-20-2009, 05:23 PM

Just help their pets out on AoE, and give them some more utility.

hellfire

01-20-2009, 05:32 PM

Mergeing pets and adding their spells to our spell list would do nothing...you can only cast so many spells....we would do exactually same dps as we do right now with out pet.

Yimway

01-20-2009, 05:45 PM

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mergeing pets and adding their spells to our spell list would do nothing...you can only cast so many spells....we would do exactually same dps as we do right now with out pet.</blockquote>Wouldn't that depend on a number of variables, like duration of dots, recast times, etc?They could also be setup as the sorcerer aa line that are abilities that can be cast while casting a spell.While I don't think this is the best option, it just seems there are existing mechanics that can be adapted to support it more readily than the proper fix.I personally have zero faith in SoE doing the right thing here, so looking at the next best options may be the sollution. But, not my main class, so good luck parlaying with SoE on this one.

hellfire

01-20-2009, 06:01 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mergeing pets and adding their spells to our spell list would do nothing...you can only cast so many spells....we would do exactually same dps as we do right now with out pet.</blockquote>Wouldn't that depend on a number of variables, like duration of dots, recast times, etc?They could also be setup as the sorcerer aa line that are abilities that can be cast while casting a spell.While I don't think this is the best option, it just seems there are existing mechanics that can be adapted to support it more readily than the proper fix.I personally have zero faith in SoE doing the right thing here, so looking at the next best options may be the sollution. But, not my main class, so good luck parlaying with SoE on this one.</blockquote>Conj is a spam class not to the extent of chanters but still a spam class,and from viewing the pets current spells cast/recast timers we would still be spamming our spells with our main nuke being the most dps. I can prob safely say im one of the best geared conjs so on the high end of recast our main nuke would still be casted inbetween every other spell.Actually we as a class would be worse off since we would need to start to concentrate on spell cast haste now because we have no AA that decreases anything outside our main nukes/dots.Dots dont matter...because we dont let them run fuull duration like all mages...you get generally more dps from Proc/+spell damge off fist tic.The way it is now you could give us our pet spells....and we would do the same dps as we are now with out a pet...baring Big ae fight with a added AE nuke.Oh yeah they arent enough pure AE encounters in this exspantion also imo...not as bad as RoK ..but still very imbalanced towards solo targets.

Yimway

01-20-2009, 06:27 PM

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Conj is a spam class not to the extent of chanters but still a spam class,and from viewing the pets current spells cast/recast timers we would still be spamming our spells with our main nuke being the most dps. I can prob safely say im one of the best geared conjs so on the high end of recast our main nuke would still be casted inbetween every other spell.Actually we as a class would be worse off since we would need to start to concentrate on spell cast haste now because we have no AA that decreases anything outside our main nukes/dots.Dots dont matter...because we dont let them run fuull duration like all mages...you get generally more dps from Proc/+spell damge off fist tic.The way it is now you could give us our pet spells....and we would do the same dps as we are now with out a pet...baring Big ae fight with a added AE nuke.Oh yeah they arent enough pure AE encounters in this exspantion also imo...not as bad as RoK ..but still very imbalanced towards solo targets.</blockquote>While my conji felt no where near the spam class as my coercer, I'll bow to your experience on the class as I abandoned my conji at the end of EoF.I'm curious though, what sollutions you see as viable if stat sharring is ruled impossible?

Allie

01-20-2009, 07:32 PM

<cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Allie@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd glady take most summoners(aside from players with a bad rep) into a TSO dungeon... I see regular parses of 3-6k from summoners in TSO instance groups, with hearts or shards, coth, etc... I don't see any reason anyone would specifically boycott a summoner class from their groups...While you may have game mechanic issues with your class... so does every other class... however, being arrogant, such as some other folks in this post, and ranting about it on the boards does nothing... send /feedback, /petition, /bug, etc, etc...bottom line... a question was posed, I answered. If my answer was not to your liking, there is no need to be rude about it, simply ignore it.../sighEDIT: on a side note... you keep saying "Get' a group... how about being a little proactive and "Make" a group?</blockquote>What do u think are forums for? These are official Sony forums, so we Summoners want to communicate with Sony, that's what they for. Unfortunately there hasn't been any official response to all the problems yet except from a few month ago, that Sony is aware of the issues and will fix the class after TSO is released.Hurray, now they decided to fix fighters, all we want is a statement what and when we will be changed so we know if it is really worth it to hang on to that class or better reroll which I prefer not to.Edited: bec my English sucks lol</blockquote>Well they are Community forums for the community to communicate with each other, not for us to communicate with devs... /feedback, /bug, /petition are the tools used to communicate with devs... but I know nothing, so why ask me?</blockquote>Even if this is not part of the topic, you can be sure we do that as well, but Sony also has to pay attention if the same issue comes up over and over again and report this.Anyways, I am not here to fight just to point things out.

hellfire

01-20-2009, 08:22 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Conj is a spam class not to the extent of chanters but still a spam class,and from viewing the pets current spells cast/recast timers we would still be spamming our spells with our main nuke being the most dps. I can prob safely say im one of the best geared conjs so on the high end of recast our main nuke would still be casted inbetween every other spell.Actually we as a class would be worse off since we would need to start to concentrate on spell cast haste now because we have no AA that decreases anything outside our main nukes/dots.Dots dont matter...because we dont let them run fuull duration like all mages...you get generally more dps from Proc/+spell damge off fist tic.The way it is now you could give us our pet spells....and we would do the same dps as we are now with out a pet...baring Big ae fight with a added AE nuke.Oh yeah they arent enough pure AE encounters in this exspantion also imo...not as bad as RoK ..but still very imbalanced towards solo targets.</blockquote>While my conji felt no where near the spam class as my coercer, I'll bow to your experience on the class as I abandoned my conji at the end of EoF.I'm curious though, what sollutions you see as viable if stat sharring is ruled impossible?</blockquote>Need more ways to increase pet dps via AA and suvivability.....and imo Summoner specific gear atm especially at end game preety much fails at doing that.Crafted summoner specific adornments to add to gear can help.....more so then summoner specific gear.Tho im still very apposed to any gear based fix to core class issues or hell game mechanic faults.Then of corse their is the question of utility this is where they really have to use their heads because to make utility usefull to the raid there should be no nerfing to other classes to make ours worth while imo.Stuff that i suggested earlier in thread would be type of unquie utility i was talking about.Coh from anywhere in norrath...no other item/ability exsists to do that.Raid wide ae avoid/damage increaser/hp buff to swarm/dumbfire/temp pets........no other item/ability exsists to do that.Necro can have extra pet added to main pet that will run to someone dead in battle and give its life to the person ...instant rez/with full hp/power and no revive effects.........no other item/ability exsists to do that.Buff with chance to double effect/ or chance to not use a charge on any clicky/temp item...would apply to shard/heal shards/pots/poisons/signets....so on and so forth....no other item/ability exsists in game.Just a few things and if sat and really throught things out could prob come up with tons more.But whole thing is have to think about adding utility that is not currently already in game and is already efficently in game.

Xil

01-21-2009, 09:50 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Conj is a spam class not to the extent of chanters but still a spam class,and from viewing the pets current spells cast/recast timers we would still be spamming our spells with our main nuke being the most dps. I can prob safely say im one of the best geared conjs so on the high end of recast our main nuke would still be casted inbetween every other spell.Actually we as a class would be worse off since we would need to start to concentrate on spell cast haste now because we have no AA that decreases anything outside our main nukes/dots.Dots dont matter...because we dont let them run fuull duration like all mages...you get generally more dps from Proc/+spell damge off fist tic.The way it is now you could give us our pet spells....and we would do the same dps as we are now with out a pet...baring Big ae fight with a added AE nuke.Oh yeah they arent enough pure AE encounters in this exspantion also imo...not as bad as RoK ..but still very imbalanced towards solo targets.</blockquote>While my conji felt no where near the spam class as my coercer, I'll bow to your experience on the class as I abandoned my conji at the end of EoF.I'm curious though, what sollutions you see as viable if stat sharring is ruled impossible?</blockquote>Summoner pretty much only need one thing. We have DPS. It just depends on the build of the group we are in and the buffs we get.Summoner are supposed to be along the lines of rogue for utility so since rogue focus on lowering melee Mitigation and the melee effectiveness of mobs, summoner should be the opposite.One lowers spell mitigation (by a truckload) and the other lowers spell effectiveness (by a truckload).And the class would be for all intents and purposes balanced.There would still be smaller issues like Pet survivability and damage output, and dumbfire pet survivability... you know necro servile soul can be resisted now? Cute seriously, why the hell can mobs resist a dumbfire pet? Then there's the corpse requirement on undead horde that's absolutley rediculous in a game where corses vanish the moment you loot them... Or the fact that lifeburn is only 25% effective unless 3 other classes ride the necro like a step child the whole raid...But I'd conceed all of that for a massive magical mitigation debuff or a massive magical mitigation temp buff (raid wide). Which really already falls in line with the class lore and intended purpose. Conjy get stoneskin and magical protection stuff and Necro should get some kind of sickening or decay type line that drastically lowers magical resists.If we had that it wouldn't matter if we parsed like a defiler. We'd be increasing the DPS or the survivability of the whole raid. And that would make all summoner an absolutley desired class for both grouping and raiding.And right now the raid dynamic is really only missing that aspect. Several classes lower and increase magical resists by a little but none offer a major mitigation modifer. It's the one piece that's missing and summoner would easily and greatfully fill the role.The fact that they didn't simply add that Utility to Summoner with TSO is beyond me, it would have been so incredibly simple to do. Niether summoner class really needs a complete revamp.But thanks to the loud mouthed "ZOMG THIS IS COMPLETELY BROKEN FIX IT" mentality summoner is on the back burner where it will stay until they feel compelled to redesign the whole class... Remeber boys and girls if you grossly exagerate the problem the people trying to find a solution grossly exagerate the time and cost to fix it... And when you have to present a solution to the most tight-a$sed executives in the world... every single penny counts.

Yimway

01-21-2009, 12:02 PM

<cite>Xil wrote:</cite><blockquote>Summoner pretty much only need one thing. We have DPS. It just depends on the build of the group we are in and the buffs we get.Summoner are supposed to be along the lines of rogue for utility so since rogue focus on lowering melee Mitigation and the melee effectiveness of mobs, summoner should be the opposite.</blockquote>I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. My coercer alt way out dps's conji's with better gear and better buffs on a very consistent basis. I agree with many others in this thread, that when summoners are brought into a pug, their dps is abysmal for a dps class. In fact, I'll usually see dirge's out parsing them.Summoner dps should be brought up to be over enchanters on both singles and group encounters. Gear and skill being equal, I'm not sold that is the case atm.I'd have no quibble with adding debuffs to the summoner class, but I'm not sold that we can't already debuff a mob well enough already. I have to agree with Bigiron, that whatever utility was given to them would need to be unique, robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the right tact here. Unique though spells more development resources in my mind, and I'm not optimistic about much of that ever really being applied to this issue.

Bhow

01-21-2009, 12:14 PM

<cite>Xil wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Conj is a spam class not to the extent of chanters but still a spam class,and from viewing the pets current spells cast/recast timers we would still be spamming our spells with our main nuke being the most dps. I can prob safely say im one of the best geared conjs so on the high end of recast our main nuke would still be casted inbetween every other spell.Actually we as a class would be worse off since we would need to start to concentrate on spell cast haste now because we have no AA that decreases anything outside our main nukes/dots.Dots dont matter...because we dont let them run fuull duration like all mages...you get generally more dps from Proc/+spell damge off fist tic.The way it is now you could give us our pet spells....and we would do the same dps as we are now with out a pet...baring Big ae fight with a added AE nuke.Oh yeah they arent enough pure AE encounters in this exspantion also imo...not as bad as RoK ..but still very imbalanced towards solo targets.</blockquote>While my conji felt no where near the spam class as my coercer, I'll bow to your experience on the class as I abandoned my conji at the end of EoF.I'm curious though, what sollutions you see as viable if stat sharring is ruled impossible?</blockquote>Summoner pretty much only need one thing. We have DPS. It just depends on the build of the group we are in and the buffs we get.Summoner are supposed to be along the lines of rogue for utility so since rogue focus on lowering melee Mitigation and the melee effectiveness of mobs, summoner should be the opposite.One lowers spell mitigation (by a truckload) and the other lowers spell effectiveness (by a truckload).And the class would be for all intents and purposes balanced.There would still be smaller issues like Pet survivability and damage output, and dumbfire pet survivability... you know necro servile soul can be resisted now? Cute seriously, why the hell can mobs resist a dumbfire pet? Then there's the corpse requirement on undead horde that's absolutley rediculous in a game where corses vanish the moment you loot them... Or the fact that lifeburn is only 25% effective unless 3 other classes ride the necro like a step child the whole raid...But I'd conceed all of that for a massive magical mitigation debuff or a massive magical mitigation temp buff (raid wide). Which really already falls in line with the class lore and intended purpose. Conjy get stoneskin and magical protection stuff and Necro should get some kind of sickening or decay type line that drastically lowers magical resists.If we had that it wouldn't matter if we parsed like a defiler. We'd be increasing the DPS or the survivability of the whole raid. And that would make all summoner an absolutley desired class for both grouping and raiding.And right now the raid dynamic is really only missing that aspect. Several classes lower and increase magical resists by a little but none offer a major mitigation modifer. It's the one piece that's missing and summoner would easily and greatfully fill the role.The fact that they didn't simply add that Utility to Summoner with TSO is beyond me, it would have been so incredibly simple to do. Niether summoner class really needs a complete revamp.But thanks to the loud mouthed "ZOMG THIS IS COMPLETELY BROKEN FIX IT" mentality summoner is on the back burner where it will stay until they feel compelled to redesign the whole class... Remeber boys and girls if you grossly exagerate the problem the people trying to find a solution grossly exagerate the time and cost to fix it... And when you have to present a solution to the most tight-a$sed executives in the world... every single penny counts.</blockquote>Anyone else think Im starting to sound like a broken record? Or are people just not reading all the prior posts...Summoner dps IS broken. Not as badly as some people are making it sounds... but broken none the less.EVERY other mage class (more or less) gets full beinifit from their gear. (Spell crit, BoE, cast speed, reuse speed etc.) WE do not. THIS needs to be addressed. (Watch a conjuror Plane Shift, it ups pet crit chance to about 70-80% depending) All the sudden, your spell crit average is where it should be (comparable to a sorcerer/chanter w/ equal gear) and their dps is *shocker* ON PAR to where it should be...What does this tell you?That aside, I dont mind your debuff idea. In fact, I'd be ok with it. If I could dps like a brig and debuff like a brig, Id be happy =PI will ask again, please folks, if your going to post saying the class is ok, rethink it and read the prior posts...Youre wrong.

Bhow

01-21-2009, 12:15 PM

Sorry folks. Double post. (crappy wifi ftw)

Mew

01-21-2009, 01:15 PM

I don't like giving up +spell crit and +spell dmg gear just so that my pet can get +crit and +dmg gear. Some gear does both but not enough types of gear. What we need is a fix to the pets' abilities not gear. Fixing with gear is a bandaid only and not a cure. I am shivering in my boots over GU51 and the new aggro management features. My tank pet barely holds aggro now! What's going to happen in a couple of weeks?Dumbfire pets - are they spells or are they temporary pets? Right now they can be resisted and reflected as spells can but they also can be destroyed by melee attack and combat arts. Which are they? Pick one and stick with it SOE, please!

Allie

01-21-2009, 02:25 PM

<cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Summoner pretty much only need one thing. We have DPS. It just depends on the build of the group we are in and the buffs we get.</blockquote>Anyone else think Im starting to sound like a broken record? Or are people just not reading all the prior posts...Summoner dps IS broken. Not as badly as some people are making it sounds... but broken none the less.EVERY other mage class (more or less) gets full beinifit from their gear. (Spell crit, BoE, cast speed, reuse speed etc.) WE do not. THIS needs to be addressed. (Watch a conjuror Plane Shift, it ups pet crit chance to about 70-80% depending) All the sudden, your spell crit average is where it should be (comparable to a sorcerer/chanter w/ equal gear) and their dps is *shocker* ON PAR to where it should be...What does this tell you?That aside, I dont mind your debuff idea. In fact, I'd be ok with it. If I could dps like a brig and debuff like a brig, Id be happy =PI will ask again, please folks, if your going to post saying the class is ok, rethink it and read the prior posts...Youre wrong.</blockquote>Yup, if any untility class can outparse us - something is wrong (chanters can, doesn't matter if we talk about raid mobs or group mobs) No other mage has to cast such a shi tload of buffs in order to do decent DPS - The tanks are not waiting for us!!!If any tank can outparse us or come even close - somthing is wrongConjis are broken because they offer nothing else but DPS, and the same amount of DPS can also be offered by any other mage, even more by Sorcers which also offer more utility.Does that sound right to you? I really don't get why this simple point is so hard to understand.

Bhow

01-21-2009, 02:37 PM

<cite>Allie@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Summoner pretty much only need one thing. We have DPS. It just depends on the build of the group we are in and the buffs we get.</blockquote>Anyone else think Im starting to sound like a broken record? Or are people just not reading all the prior posts...Summoner dps IS broken. Not as badly as some people are making it sounds... but broken none the less.EVERY other mage class (more or less) gets full beinifit from their gear. (Spell crit, BoE, cast speed, reuse speed etc.) WE do not. THIS needs to be addressed. (Watch a conjuror Plane Shift, it ups pet crit chance to about 70-80% depending) All the sudden, your spell crit average is where it should be (comparable to a sorcerer/chanter w/ equal gear) and their dps is *shocker* ON PAR to where it should be...What does this tell you?That aside, I dont mind your debuff idea. In fact, I'd be ok with it. If I could dps like a brig and debuff like a brig, Id be happy =PI will ask again, please folks, if your going to post saying the class is ok, rethink it and read the prior posts...Youre wrong.</blockquote>Yup, if any untility class can outparse us - something is wrong (chanters can, doesn't matter if we talk about raid mobs or group mobs) No other mage has to cast such a shi tload of buffs in order to do decent DPS - The tanks are not waiting for us!!!If any tank can outparse us or come even close - somthing is wrongConjis are broken because they offer nothing else but DPS, and the same amount of DPS can also be offered by any other mage, even more by Sorcers which also offer more utility.Does that sound right to you? I really don't get why this simple point is so hard to understand.</blockquote>Its hard to understand for people who have no experience raiding, or for people who see a conjuror parse well.Yea, I parse decently. And in a PUG, especially with people who dont raid, aren't near as well geared or experienced, I *appear* to parse very well.The people who understand the game dynamics and the class itself, so far in this thread, all seem to agree =PAll I can say is, I hope the devs listen to us over the rest lolAn No, Im not trying to belittle anyone, or sound like some elitist jerk. Different people have different amounts of time and interest in the game. Ive played on both sides of the fence, so, tbh, I really do understand, though not always agree, with why most people are saying what they say.That being said...Fix Summoners in '09!!

acctlc

01-21-2009, 08:20 PM

<cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Assumptions(To save me a headache later)1) All people are equally geared.2) All people are equally skilled.Wow, not sure how I missed this gem...Ive said before and will say again, the mage classes are disgustingly out of balance.For the people that have a hard time understanding this, look at dps v. utility for scouts and then for mages...Scouts - Assassins and Rangers - Crazy dps, not too much utility.Swashbuckler - a bit less dps than an assassin/ranger, but a bit more than a brigand, a bit more util than an assassin/ranger.Brigand - Less dps than a swashy, but brings debuffsBards - Tons of buffs, not tons of dps. (Yes they can still parse, just don't outparse the rest of the scouts...)This, imo, is pretty well balanced.Now, mages.Sorcerers - Tons of dps, and a little bit of utility (firigd gift for the wiz for example)Summoners - No real utility, less dps than sorcerers (except when vs. a wizard on an AE fight).Enchanters - tons and tons of utility, and dps almost on par with a summoner if not exceeding said summoner.Anyone see some discrepancy here? Summoners are SUPPOSED to be T2 dps and get more util than the sorcerers... We dont get either.To the people saying the class is fine...It isnt. Does this mean a good summoner can't parse decently? No. However, depending on where you fall in the skill spectrum, just because a good summoner may blast you on the parse doesn't make him good compared to a good chanter or sorcerer.As to the gear discussion... Imagine sorcerers and enchanters spell crit and spell mod only applying to 60%ish of their spells... then you understand what its like to play a summoner. And thats leaving out all the other issues with the pets...Other crap that needs to be addressed as to summoners.1) Unless your healer is either a) amazing, or b) bored as all hell, they probably dont cure your pet... For the people in heroic content, this means squat. To the people in raid content.. This means a dead pet, and bye bye to 40% of your parse. There NEEDS to be a way for summoners to cure their own pets.2) More utility needs to be added to the class. Summoners should be bringing more util than a sorcerer and less than an enchanter, currently, we bring less than both.....3) ALL our spells need to be affected by our spell crit and spell mod... INCLUDING temp pets.. Gotta love dots that can die to AE's... and dont even do crap.4) As Bigron has said, and I can't agree more, our pets need to get our stats. If I have 100% crit, my pet should as well, and I should NOT have to sacrafice my own stats to buff up my pets... Its pointless. Not to mention, in the end, Im worse off.Seriously though people, do NOT pretend like summoners are fine and that mages are balanced. It is clear as all hell that they are not. Heck, anyone with any form of common sense should be able to see it...</blockquote>QFE..I agree with most everything Bhow put forth here, especially the need to cure the [Removed for Content] pet. I do *not* however agree that it doesn't mean squat to heroic encounters. I can think of 2 heroic encounters where the summoners inability to cure the [Removed for Content] pet is a serious detriment (Powermonger in Ravenscale and Ferzhul in Palace) and there may be more as I havn't seen all the zones yet. Sure theres ways to work around it but the simple fact is most folks won't even think twice about declining a summoner a spot in these endgame heroic zones.Like most summoners and maybe even sorcerers, I'm getting tired of seeing the call out on the channels for groups consisting of bard, chanter, and melee dps. It doesn't matter what zone it is, folks going to DF the easiest [Removed for Content] zone in the xpac are still looking for these setups and have completely ignored tells from summoners when they advertise looking for dps. The fact is that grouping with unfamiliar toons is a gamble. Do you gamble on a chanter that at the very least will put some sexy buffs on you thereby increasing your dps, even if they can't dps their own way out of a paper bag..or a summoner that, if they can't parse, just becomes a waste of space in the group. The answer is pretty obvious.

Bhow

01-21-2009, 09:42 PM

tbh, Ive killed both Ferzhul and Powermongerer, and neither one was an issue with my pet. Though, that could be more a compliment to the healer than a defence of my prior statement =PYou're right though, There are a *few* spots in a heroic content where the pet cure is important.Excellent point.

acctlc

01-22-2009, 06:29 AM

Yeah the single target nox that the Powermonger puts on individuals throughout the fight will take my pet (mythical) down to red orange then the aoe knockup tends to smoke it. The lovely part about this is there is not enough time in between the knockups to resummon. So in other words I end up going petless until 20% when I can pop a stored pet out of dimensional storage for the 20% burn. Maybe a healer or 2 with enough group heals going out could negate the effect but again I feel utterly stupid screaming at a healer to keep healing when the group is green..just cause my [Removed for Content] pet still has a dot ticking away on it :/

thog_zork

01-22-2009, 07:51 AM

<cite></cite><cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>[...]1) Unless your healer is either a) amazing, or b) bored as all hell, they probably dont cure your pet... For the people in heroic content, this means squat. To the people in raid content.. This means a dead pet, and bye bye to 40% of your parse. There NEEDS to be a way for summoners to cure their own pets.2) More utility needs to be added to the class. Summoners should be bringing more util than a sorcerer and less than an enchanter, currently, we bring less than both.....3) ALL our spells need to be affected by our spell crit and spell mod... INCLUDING temp pets.. Gotta love dots that can die to AE's... and dont even do crap.4) As Bigron has said, and I can't agree more, our pets need to get our stats. If I have 100% crit, my pet should as well, and I should NOT have to sacrafice my own stats to buff up my pets... Its pointless. Not to mention, in the end, Im worse off.Seriously though people, do NOT pretend like summoners are fine and that mages are balanced. It is clear as all hell that they are not. Heck, anyone with any form of common sense should be able to see it...</blockquote>QFE !(i could not have formulated it better)i would like to add:The Snake in TOMB or the cow named and the last named in GUK 3 these are also examples where we are hurt by game mechanics : our pet can not attack the cow named and the last named in GUK 3 !our pet can not attack the adds of the snake if we got the curse !

agnott

01-22-2009, 10:53 AM

<cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Allie@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Summoner pretty much only need one thing. We have DPS. It just depends on the build of the group we are in and the buffs we get.</blockquote>Anyone else think Im starting to sound like a broken record? Or are people just not reading all the prior posts...Summoner dps IS broken. Not as badly as some people are making it sounds... but broken none the less.EVERY other mage class (more or less) gets full beinifit from their gear. (Spell crit, BoE, cast speed, reuse speed etc.) WE do not. THIS needs to be addressed. (Watch a conjuror Plane Shift, it ups pet crit chance to about 70-80% depending) All the sudden, your spell crit average is where it should be (comparable to a sorcerer/chanter w/ equal gear) and their dps is *shocker* ON PAR to where it should be...What does this tell you?That aside, I dont mind your debuff idea. In fact, I'd be ok with it. If I could dps like a brig and debuff like a brig, Id be happy =PI will ask again, please folks, if your going to post saying the class is ok, rethink it and read the prior posts...Youre wrong.</blockquote>Yup, if any untility class can outparse us - something is wrong (chanters can, doesn't matter if we talk about raid mobs or group mobs) No other mage has to cast such a shi tload of buffs in order to do decent DPS - The tanks are not waiting for us!!!If any tank can outparse us or come even close - somthing is wrongConjis are broken because they offer nothing else but DPS, and the same amount of DPS can also be offered by any other mage, even more by Sorcers which also offer more utility.Does that sound right to you? I really don't get why this simple point is so hard to understand.</blockquote>Its hard to understand for people who have no experience raiding, or for people who see a conjuror parse well.Yea, I parse decently. And in a PUG, especially with people who dont raid, aren't near as well geared or experienced, I *appear* to parse very well.The people who understand the game dynamics and the class itself, so far in this thread, all seem to agree =PAll I can say is, I hope the devs listen to us over the rest lolAn No, Im not trying to belittle anyone, or sound like some elitist jerk. Different people have different amounts of time and interest in the game. Ive played on both sides of the fence, so, tbh, I really do understand, though not always agree, with why most people are saying what they say.That being said...Fix Summoners in '09!!</blockquote>Do you think the issues with raiding justify the title of this post, which imply the class as a whole is a waste of time to play?

liveja

01-22-2009, 11:09 AM

<cite>agnott wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you think the issues with raiding justify the title of this post, which imply the class as a whole is a waste of time to play?</blockquote>Speaking strictly for myself: compared to my Wizzie, my Swashy, or even my Troubie, my Conjuror is so boring & lackluster that I've retired my level 60 & am on the verge of deleting him.Yes, I think the Conjuror class is, overall, a waste of time. I won't speak of Necros, because I've never played one, but Conjys, IMO, need some serious help. Bhow's & Bigron's suggestions are a good start.

Bhow

01-22-2009, 02:21 PM

<cite>agnott wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you think the issues with raiding justify the title of this post, which imply the class as a whole is a waste of time to play?</blockquote>Coming from a raider perspective, yes.However, at the same time, I think a lot of the arguing that is in the thread is due to the fact that peoples reasoning to play any class can be different. That being said, it probably is a bit decieving, but imo still justified =P

liveja

01-22-2009, 02:47 PM

<cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>agnott wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you think the issues with raiding justify the title of this post, which imply the class as a whole is a waste of time to play?</blockquote>Coming from a raider perspective, yes.</blockquote>As it stands, I don't want to play my Conjy any more, even to get up to the levels where I could see the grouping & raiding issues. Can my Conjy solo efficiently & well? Yea, sure.However, can my WIZZIE do it faster & "more enjoyably"? YES, IMO, absolutely. If I want to play a Mage to solo ... I'm no longer going to do it on a Conjy, nor would I recommend the Conjuror class to a "casual" player who only wants to solo.So, yes, I think that for just about any aspect of the game, Conjurors are largely a waste of time, & so mine sits on the shelf & rots.Even my TROUBIE is more fun to solo -- because if things go wrong, I have "o crap" methods of getting away. I'm sorry, but something is seriously wrong in Denmark, when TROUBIES are more fun to solo than CONJYS <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />NB: I have no opinion of Necros, other than the fact that they at least get FD.

Skua

01-22-2009, 10:11 PM

i agree i cant stand log in my conjy anymore.....for what?raids? no1 wants megroups? ppl laught at me , conjuror? lol no thx gonna grab that templar DPS /point /laugh....solo? nah.....with my swashy i tear mobs apart and stunlock them...with my warlock? i aoe farm......with my coercer? lol is fun as hell a new pet everyday.....hell my mystic is more fun soloing than my conju .....crits crits crits!!!!

agnott

01-23-2009, 01:14 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>agnott wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you think the issues with raiding justify the title of this post, which imply the class as a whole is a waste of time to play?</blockquote>Coming from a raider perspective, yes.</blockquote>As it stands, I don't want to play my Conjy any more, even to get up to the levels where I could see the grouping & raiding issues. Can my Conjy solo efficiently & well? Yea, sure.However, can my WIZZIE do it faster & "more enjoyably"? YES, IMO, absolutely. If I want to play a Mage to solo ... I'm no longer going to do it on a Conjy, nor would I recommend the Conjuror class to a "casual" player who only wants to solo.So, yes, I think that for just about any aspect of the game, Conjurors are largely a waste of time, & so mine sits on the shelf & rots.Even my TROUBIE is more fun to solo -- because if things go wrong, I have "o crap" methods of getting away. I'm sorry, but something is seriously wrong in Denmark, when TROUBIES are more fun to solo than CONJYS <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />NB: I have no opinion of Necros, other than the fact that they at least get FD.</blockquote>It's great that you find other classes more enjoyable to play then others. It's why the game gives you a choice of lots of different races & classes. This is all in the realm of "taste".Your personal taste I'm afriad is not proof that a class is indeed broken and or a waste of time to play from 0-80.There are rading issues for sure, but these kind overblown unsupported assertions about the class will only take the focus off the true problems.

Bhow

01-23-2009, 01:24 AM

<cite>agnott wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>agnott wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you think the issues with raiding justify the title of this post, which imply the class as a whole is a waste of time to play?</blockquote>Coming from a raider perspective, yes.</blockquote>As it stands, I don't want to play my Conjy any more, even to get up to the levels where I could see the grouping & raiding issues. Can my Conjy solo efficiently & well? Yea, sure.However, can my WIZZIE do it faster & "more enjoyably"? YES, IMO, absolutely. If I want to play a Mage to solo ... I'm no longer going to do it on a Conjy, nor would I recommend the Conjuror class to a "casual" player who only wants to solo.So, yes, I think that for just about any aspect of the game, Conjurors are largely a waste of time, & so mine sits on the shelf & rots.Even my TROUBIE is more fun to solo -- because if things go wrong, I have "o crap" methods of getting away. I'm sorry, but something is seriously wrong in Denmark, when TROUBIES are more fun to solo than CONJYS <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />NB: I have no opinion of Necros, other than the fact that they at least get FD.</blockquote>It's great that you find other classes more enjoyable to play then others. It's why the game gives you a choice of lots of different races & classes. This is all in the realm of "taste".Your personal taste I'm afriad is not proof that a class is indeed broken and or a waste of time to play from 0-80.There are rading issues for sure, but these kind overblown unsupported assertions about the class will only take the focus off the true problems.</blockquote>Valid point, however, I think the point he was trying to make was that the one thing conjuror's are supposed to "excel" at is being a very good mage solo class, and tbh, at this point, we aren't even excelling at that.However, your point is still right. Taste, as far as class issues, makes no difference at all. I still *like* to play my conjuror. Hence why I am here highlighting the issues so that Ill be able to both play a class I enjoy and have some desireability in the raid/group setting to boot.

StaticLex

01-23-2009, 09:42 AM

<cite>Arieva@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like most summoners and maybe even sorcerers, I'm getting tired of seeing the call out on the channels for groups consisting of bard, chanter, and melee dps. It doesn't matter what zone it is, folks going to DF the easiest [Removed for Content] zone in the xpac are still looking for these setups and have completely ignored tells from summoners when they advertise looking for dps. The fact is that grouping with unfamiliar toons is a gamble. Do you gamble on a chanter that at the very least will put some sexy buffs on you thereby increasing your dps, even if they can't dps their own way out of a paper bag..or a summoner that, if they can't parse, just becomes a waste of space in the group. The answer is pretty obvious. </blockquote>Yes, the prospect of finding a group is still terrible. I will send tells to groups looking for DPS and the vast majority of the time I am either told they want a scout, or I get no reply at all. For a while I even tried starting groups myself.. which I quickly learned was an excercise in utter futility. If people won't even bring a summoner into a group of 4 or 5, there is absolutely no way in hell they're going to join one with nobody else in it.

liveja

01-23-2009, 12:52 PM

<cite>agnott wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your personal taste I'm afriad is not proof that a class is indeed broken and or a waste of time to play from 0-80.</blockquote>The class is not broken; it functions as designed. THAT is the problem: the design is sub-standard. Some people think that equates to "broken"; I'm not going to argue with them.I pretty clearly stated -- or at least very clearly implied -- that it is strictly my opinion that the class is a waste of time to play from 0-80. I believe people were asked if it was our belief (allow me to highlight the words "opinion" & "belief", for those not paying attention) that the class is a waste of time. The question was answered. If the answer isn't liked ... perhaps the question shouldn't have been asked?

agnott

01-23-2009, 12:58 PM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arieva@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like most summoners and maybe even sorcerers, I'm getting tired of seeing the call out on the channels for groups consisting of bard, chanter, and melee dps. It doesn't matter what zone it is, folks going to DF the easiest [Removed for Content] zone in the xpac are still looking for these setups and have completely ignored tells from summoners when they advertise looking for dps. The fact is that grouping with unfamiliar toons is a gamble. Do you gamble on a chanter that at the very least will put some sexy buffs on you thereby increasing your dps, even if they can't dps their own way out of a paper bag..or a summoner that, if they can't parse, just becomes a waste of space in the group. The answer is pretty obvious. </blockquote>Yes, the prospect of finding a group is still terrible. I will send tells to groups looking for DPS and the vast majority of the time I am either told they want a scout, or I get no reply at all. For a while I even tried starting groups myself.. which I quickly learned was an excercise in utter futility. If people won't even bring a summoner into a group of 4 or 5, there is absolutely no way in hell they're going to join one with nobody else in it.</blockquote>You have to admit that some of your problems with grouping stem from your decsion making. If grouping was a top proirity for you then the choices were clear. Tank or Healer. Summoner's never were and never will be the first choice for a group. So you have to take a little bit of a responsibility there.But this is also no excuse for the Devs to make a class a total liability when grouping. But most of the grouping that goes on I see as just experience runs where little stratagey is needed. I don't see summoners or any class finding it impossible getting into to groups for this.It's the high end named fights or any fight were stratergy & group make up are key that conjuror's are losing ground.

StaticLex

01-23-2009, 05:08 PM

<cite>agnott wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have to admit that some of your problems with grouping stem from your decsion making. If grouping was a top proirity for you then the choices were clear. Tank or Healer. Summoner's never were and never will be the first choice for a group. So you have to take a little bit of a responsibility there.</blockquote>This is ridiculous. SOE should be designing the game where DPS is just as indispensible as tanking or healing. To suggest being pingeonholed into 1 or 2 classes in the game JUST to experience what the game is supposed to be all about is really absurd IMO. Anyway..But most of the grouping that goes on I see as just experience runs where little stratagey is needed. I don't see summoners or any class finding it impossible getting into to groups for this.To make an observation like this leads me to think you are either the most patient player on the face of the planet, or you have never played a summoner in this current environment. While it is not impossible to find a group.. 3, 4, 5+ hours of LFG time before landing a spot even in a "no strategy" chump instance should be unacceptable by anyone's standards.Bottom line.. I think you should level a summoner to 80, try to play it for a month solid in this environment, and come back and say these things.

Naughtesn

01-23-2009, 05:18 PM

A good first step once the hate change mechanics are fully implemented is for some developer input into any class forum threads which discuss possible solutions. The necro version is stickied here - <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=437225." target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...opic_id=437225.</a> There is also a conjuror version which is titled in such a way that it would likely not get much attention - here - <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=433252." target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...opic_id=433252.</a> (If a conjuror knows of a different thread - please post.) Since Aeralik did, in passing, note that we needed looking at, I would assume these threads would be of help. Now that the robe is fixed, some accurate reassessment is called for.

Davngr1

01-23-2009, 06:19 PM

bringing summoenrs in line with brigs/swash would work but im not opposed to gettig completely different utillity. summoner dps is doing better then they where back in ROK when the summoner out cry began, but still need a moderate boost. whatever it is, please make it an active utility that requires the summoner to be in raid and in control of it, not shards/hearts or pet debuffs.

Talz

01-23-2009, 07:28 PM

Everquest was a lot more fun than Parserquest II.

Yimway

01-23-2009, 07:45 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everquest was a lot more fun than Parserquest II.</blockquote>Yes, measuring a players skill is a horrible idea.

Aule

01-23-2009, 07:51 PM

It is incredibly unfortunate that when I'm doing any sort of a gear-zone run, like palace / outer / lower vs. a mindless kill run, the only thing that I can think of that 99% of summoners will bring to the group is the NEED button. The dps is lacking, the utility is useless, the debuffs are minimal and, as pointed out, on some fights the pet is unable to actually affect the target if it is actually able to survive the first aoe. So what'm I supposed to do? Look for the bare handful of summoner's that can pull out the occasional 7-10k parse on an instance-named fight? 5-man the zone and tell the summoner he's getting an AA tour but can't hit need unless it's rotting? If it's a single heal zone, I'm gonna grab a troub if possible to fill the extra slot. They need the love too, but they also do something for their group. You're already building specific groups for these instances. That may change when everybody in the group has 200 aa's. But for now you typically see: Tank Enchanter Dirge Shaman Healer 2 Which leaves the 6th slot for good dps. Brigand will be my first priority here since that will let me and the sk clear 10k on certain fights, in the unlikely event I can't find a brigand to come with me then I'd go with a swashbuckler or illusionist, assassin or wizard if neither of those are avail. That or I can bring the one whole necro I know on server who groups outside of guild and can parse worth a bowl of beans. Hi Aladine, how's MV treating you?

hellfire

01-23-2009, 08:02 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everquest was a lot more fun than Parserquest II.</blockquote>Sorry people was parsering even with out programs in eq1...from the beginning.

Talz

01-23-2009, 08:06 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everquest was a lot more fun than Parserquest II.</blockquote>Yes, measuring a players skill is a horrible idea.</blockquote>Either stay in context or don't waste my time.There isn't anything wrong with measuring a players skill. Nearly five years of obsessive DPS complaints, fits, and rants got old very fast.

Talz

01-23-2009, 08:13 PM

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everquest was a lot more fun than Parserquest II.</blockquote>Sorry people was parsering even with out programs in eq1...from the beginning.</blockquote>I began very shortly after lauch and played with guilds doing cutting edge content up until OoW. Even the ones that used them didn't pine over them anywhere near what players here do.

hellfire

01-23-2009, 09:10 PM

<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everquest was a lot more fun than Parserquest II.</blockquote>Sorry people was parsering even with out programs in eq1...from the beginning.</blockquote>I began very shortly after lauch and played with guilds doing cutting edge content up until OoW. Even the ones that used them didn't pine over them anywhere near what players here do.</blockquote>And i was in same type of guilds...and thats how players was judeged...dps and reaction speeds.

Yimway

01-23-2009, 09:26 PM

<cite>Bigron@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>And i was in same type of guilds...and thats how players was judeged...dps and reaction speeds.</blockquote>Same expierences here. We didn't have real-time parsers when eq1 first started, but I wrote a perl script that crunched logs each night and posted results to a web page. The first version I was sharring with friends within the first 6 months of eq1.Without parses, it is very hard to accurately evaluate gear choices, cast orders, aa paths, etc, etc, etc.

StaticLex

01-23-2009, 10:53 PM

<cite><a href="mailto:Atan@Unrest">Atan@Unrest</a> wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everquest was a lot more fun than Parserquest II.</blockquote>Yes, measuring a players skill is a horrible idea.</blockquote>Parse hardly equates skill, but hey, thanks for trying?<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Bhow

01-24-2009, 02:08 AM

<cite>agnott wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arieva@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like most summoners and maybe even sorcerers, I'm getting tired of seeing the call out on the channels for groups consisting of bard, chanter, and melee dps. It doesn't matter what zone it is, folks going to DF the easiest [Removed for Content] zone in the xpac are still looking for these setups and have completely ignored tells from summoners when they advertise looking for dps. The fact is that grouping with unfamiliar toons is a gamble. Do you gamble on a chanter that at the very least will put some sexy buffs on you thereby increasing your dps, even if they can't dps their own way out of a paper bag..or a summoner that, if they can't parse, just becomes a waste of space in the group. The answer is pretty obvious. </blockquote>Yes, the prospect of finding a group is still terrible. I will send tells to groups looking for DPS and the vast majority of the time I am either told they want a scout, or I get no reply at all. For a while I even tried starting groups myself.. which I quickly learned was an excercise in utter futility. If people won't even bring a summoner into a group of 4 or 5, there is absolutely no way in hell they're going to join one with nobody else in it.</blockquote>You have to admit that some of your problems with grouping stem from your decsion making. If grouping was a top proirity for you then the choices were clear. Tank or Healer. Summoner's never were and never will be the first choice for a group. So you have to take a little bit of a responsibility there.But this is also no excuse for the Devs to make a class a total liability when grouping. But most of the grouping that goes on I see as just experience runs where little stratagey is needed. I don't see summoners or any class finding it impossible getting into to groups for this.It's the high end named fights or any fight were stratergy & group make up are key that conjuror's are losing ground.</blockquote>Ok, for starts, it has NOTHING to do with first choice. It has EVERYTHING to do with never being on the list. People want classes that can either parse very well, or bring utility. As I have CLEARLY OUTLINED in prior posts, summoners bring neither.We were meant to be balance similar to rogues, we aren't. As I have clearly outlined before. If a Brig or a Swash goes LFG, they usually get one. They can parse AND they bring some utility.To the people crying about parsers.... Wanna know why they get used?To judge a tank is easy. DO they hold agro in normal scenarios? If yes, solid tank. If no, not sutable. Find another.To judge a healer, can they keep the group alive in a normal scenario (aka not getting a massive amount of adds etc)? if yes, decent healer, if no, not so much.To judge dps... OH WAIT.....The only way you can tell if the DPS is doing their job is to see just how much dps theyre doing. Im not going to bring a 300dps assassin into a difficult zone...I could fill it with someone better.It has nothing to do with ego's. It has everything to do with being able to tell whos doing their job in the easiest way possible.Again. Seriously folks. GO BACK and read my prior posts. Summoners are broken MECHANIC wise. I outline it quite clearly and Im rather tired of repeating the same things over and over.

StaticLex

01-24-2009, 03:33 AM

<cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>To judge dps... OH WAIT.....The only way you can tell if the DPS is doing their job is to see just how much dps theyre doing. Im not going to bring a 300dps assassin into a difficult zone...I could fill it with someone better.It has nothing to do with ego's. It has everything to do with being able to tell whos doing their job in the easiest way possible.</blockquote>Oh right, as long as the tank simply keeps aggro and the healer doesn't let anyone die, they get a free pass. But when it comes to DPS it's not good enough that the mobs are simply dying (which is actually the easiest way possible to tell if a DPS is doing their job), but we have to know EXACTLY how much they are dying?! I am hardly a fan of crappy players be it tanks, healers, or DPS, but advocating this double standard for DPS classes is obviously not fair.Again, if some of you people are so excited to hump your ACT to sleep every night then I suggest you start doing it to everyone, healers and tanks alike. Maybe one day you'll be able to rat out every single slack player in the game and can rest assured that any group you join contains the creme de la creme of tanks, healers, and DPS.I mean geezus, what the hell is this.. Gattica? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Bhow

01-24-2009, 03:47 AM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>To judge dps... OH WAIT.....The only way you can tell if the DPS is doing their job is to see just how much dps theyre doing. Im not going to bring a 300dps assassin into a difficult zone...I could fill it with someone better.It has nothing to do with ego's. It has everything to do with being able to tell whos doing their job in the easiest way possible.</blockquote>Oh right, as long as the tank simply keeps aggro and the healer doesn't let anyone die, they get a free pass. But when it comes to DPS it's not good enough that the mobs are simply dying (which is actually the easiest way possible to tell if a DPS is doing their job), but we have to know EXACTLY how much they are dying?! I am hardly a fan of crappy players be it tanks, healers, or DPS, but advocating this double standard for DPS classes is obviously not fair.Again, if some of you people are so excited to hump your ACT to sleep every night then I suggest you start doing it to everyone, healers and tanks alike. Maybe one day you'll be able to rat out every single slack player in the game and can rest assured that any group you join contains the creme de la creme of tanks, healers, and DPS.I mean geezus, what the hell is this.. Gattica? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Some people actually watch heal parses too =PAs as far as double standard goes, I don't generally even open the parser to watch anyone but myself. I use it as a way to decide how I can improve... That being said, if I see someone in a group parsing like crap and 2 other people doing a good job... why would I bring said crap again...I will however point out AGAIN that the issues with summoners have nothing to do with ACT...I have only been concerned and discussed "equally geared equally well played classes" I don't feel like debating whether or not ACT is good / bad / should be used. Im only using ACT to highlight why summoners are broken.Pure logic will lead you to the Summoners are broken conclusion. Dont "need" the parser, just makes my life easier.

Compas

01-24-2009, 04:39 AM

Once again I ask please stay on topic, this still comes down to why bring the summoenr along to a raid everything they do another class does better/ more effiently and adds other bells and whistles to.In a group a summoenr even top end summoners are not able to compeat for many of the reasons mages have issues is thats when a mob with 60,000 hp dies in under 5 sec thats 2-3 spells beacuse the way the pet A.I is thats one spell and the epts ahve terrrible issues with resists and very low crit/ +spell damage, then the sumoners have lower damage seplls to begin with due to a large portion of their damage is suppost to come from their pets. Its a pure mechanics issue with the game, then to top it off all teh buffs the summoners are give is to enchance the survivability adn power of teh pets with littel to no thought given to the group except as an after thought. Once again these were designed as "selfish" classes with little to offer otehrs and what they did have in utility is now to diffused between other classes and items, and tinkering.The newer (not better) itemization and the new aa's were like rearanging chairs on the Titanic oh good it looks better now.......with the devs acting like teh band jsut keep playing on , and maybe people won't notice their sinking.Compas/Anjez80 Necromancer/80 TroubadorUnrest

LoreLady

01-24-2009, 11:14 AM

Bottom line - conjys can easilly put out 12k zone wides. Forinstance, watched fallens conjy do just that in the RoK days before TSO in VP.. Quit whining just because you cant play a class. If you have SPECIFIC issues with your class - then put something on the table. Don't just go "not enough itemization" "we need our myth" or "our class is hard" your talking to a ranger here.

Cicadi

01-24-2009, 11:26 AM

<cite>Mortred@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bottom line - conjys can easilly put out 12k zone wides. Forinstance, watched fallens conjy do just that in the RoK days before TSO in VP.. Quit whining just because you cant play a class. If you have SPECIFIC issues with your class - then put something on the table. Don't just go "not enough itemization" "we need our myth" or "our class is hard" your talking to a ranger here.</blockquote>This post made me angry, but instead of getting angry I am simply going to suggest that you A) Read the thread from start to finish and B) read this thread <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=423331" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=423331</a> and this thread <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=437225" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=437225</a>This is probably futile, though as you are clearly too lazy to even read the thread you are posting in, let alone others. Also, I would very much like to see a screenshot of this 12k pre TSO VP parse!