Any justification for nerfing 'Peace of Mind' or just another needless change? [Archive]

TwistedFaith

01-13-2009, 01:52 AM

So POM for some reason is going to get a huge nerf, whats the reasoning behind this? I just dont understand, what is gained from nerfing this ability, its a nerf to raid dps as a whole, is this what SOE want?I have zero problem with changes being made to the game for a reason, but honestly changes like these just baffle me. Its like the developers simply read EQ2Flames, see a 15page thread and then decide to nerf it.Personally I find it very frustrating, you work for AA's to enhance your toon, then a few month after the expansion is released SOE simply decides on a whim to take away something you worked hard to get, BAD BAD way to treat customers.

numbers n' letters

01-13-2009, 02:13 AM

Way to go Idiots. Its not like it only helps the chanter, It helps everyone in their group. You might as well nerf CoB, PoTM, oh snap more nerfs inc. Way to go SoE. Fix something that is broken instead of nerfing a good thing for multiple classes. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" />Long } Leader of True Blood on LDL

Noaani

01-13-2009, 02:25 AM

<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>whats the reasoning behind this?</blockquote>As a guess I would say chanter parses are the reason behind this.Expect more nerfs in the future imo.

Natthan

01-13-2009, 02:30 AM

CoB, PotM are class defining abilities(At least Supposed to be) and PoM is now brought more in line w/ an AA ability compared to these abilities. Like it or not, This AA added too much to already powerful Utility classes. Yes its a nerf to the raid DPS, but PoM should have never been as powerful as it was. This fix is going to be fine, Every Enchanter will still have this AA even w/ a "huge nerf" which I will call, Balancing.

OutcastBlade

01-13-2009, 04:05 AM

While I am going to miss POM as it currently is, it was too much of a good thing. Enchanters and bards are the best utility classes in the game, they shouldn't also be contenders for best dps.They put it in line with chime of blades, and only considering that I think its a worthwhile change.

TwistedFaith

01-13-2009, 04:41 AM

<cite>Kanolth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I am going to miss POM as it currently is, it was too much of a good thing. Enchanters and bards are the best utility classes in the game, they shouldn't also be contenders for best dps.They put it in line with chime of blades, and only considering that I think its a worthwhile change.</blockquote>COB and POTM are both raidwide with mythicals, POM is not, it also only lasts 20 seconds and it can be resisted.Why nerf, really what is the damm point? I just cannot understand this whole give someone something then nerf it later attitude that SOE have.I'll say it once, DESIGN DECISIONS NEED TO BE THOUGHT THROUGH, DEVELOPERS NEED TO GET A CLUE AND NOT SIMPLY THROW THINGS IN THE GAME ONLY THEN TO NERF LATER.To me its almost as if SOE goes out of its way to annoy the player base, nerfing this accomplishes nothing, chanters are still going to be great dps, all it accomplishes is nerfing raidwide dps and annoying people who have gotten the ability.Truely does amaze me the amonunt of times changes like this are made, and SOE wonder why they have such a bad reputation in the MMO community. I'm not even going to mention the fact that yet again this change wasnt in the test notes, makes me wonder if anyone at SOE even understands how their own game works.

Noaani

01-13-2009, 07:06 AM

Welcome to MMOs imo.Stuff gets nerfed down, beefed up and otherwise changed on a weekly basis. Sometimes players can't see the reason for it, sometimes we can. Sometimes players are able to see things so well that we can actually predict which changes are going to be made before the devs do.This particular change was one of those, if you were unable to see it, then I suggest you start looking at the game as a non chanter for a while.

Alessyia

01-13-2009, 07:33 AM

The thing I find most interesting is the arguements I hear.Some people theorize it's because "an AA ability should never be more powerful than a regular ability". Well, since Sony prefers to cater to the ideal raid force (rather than the average gaming experience) when making drastic game altering changes - that means we're comparing it to CoB and PotM with mythicals and set bonuses.So what I did was I pulled a zonewide parse from my raids most ideal zone: Palace of the Ancient One. For melee classes there is a max DPS gain of 5 to 15 DPS. This is covering everything you can imagine - Warriors Crusaders Rogues Bards and the even those lucky Priests who're able to lob some spells or whack their weapons during combat (as well as others not mentioned). In other words I looked at all 24 parses.Each Spell Caster gained roughly 30 DPS from PotM, including the chanters whom, for obvious reasons, are able to make the most use of it. They can spam and really take advantage since they're in control of it's casting. The numbers are always two to one in favour of PotM over PoM for spell casters of all sorts, and slightly less on a Chanter. In the case of melee classes CoB is either 2 to 5 DPS behind PoM or else 5+ DPS ahead of PoM. The variance for this is obvious; attack speed and weapon delay. Whoever uses more CA's and flat out hits the mob more often, stands to gain the most from CoB. Most especially since CoB has a 12 second duration (I know not of any modifiers for that).Finally one more factoid. CoB with a four set from VP is able to be recast every 30 seconds, and made raidwide by their Mythical. PotM is up almost every minute with aid of a self Jcap (S.O.P.) and also made raidwide via a Mythical. PoM on the other hand with RoA, Jcap, and or DR galore, is only up every 1:17 roughly. The timer might shorten if you get lucky enough to get all three at once, but otherwise that's the best you can do. Most raids most certainly run with at least two of each Bard meaning that with coordination you can keep CoB running nearly every 15 seconds and PotM running every 30. PoM is group wide only, hence you're still restricted to once every minute and a quarter.Okay, so what's all this useless data actually mean? Even under the absolute best of conditions Peace of Mind adds less DPS than your average ___ Bane item or Praetors Gaurd. Thanks to TSO's wonderful itemization one can gain a larger parse effect from two bits of ___ Bane gear or one decent off hander. PotM on the other hand is on par with some of the nicest proc gear out there, and it's free. Perhaps one could argue CoB is slightly deficient because of the differences in how melee classes are able to utilize it given it's small timer. Fine, then fix CoB. The most obvious solution would be to lengthen it's duration and recast to match PotM not to nerf PoM, especially when PotM is clearly kicking it's proverbial butt. So... What ~IS~ the point of this nerf then? You may as well ask how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop....If you read this far, you deserve a cookie.

Alessyia

01-13-2009, 07:54 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>This particular change was one of those, if you were unable to see it, then I suggest you start looking at the game as a non chanter for a while.</blockquote>I did look at it from another perspective. I took a purely mathematical approach to the subject and discovered there is a distinct lacking of logic. One could easily point fingers at several other recent AA abilities added that have a potential to drastically alter parses, and most of them are not Enchanter based. It all boils down to Skill and Talent; IE in how you use them. The talented players will always perform well above what is expected of them. So far, I've not seen anyone call for those other skills to be nerfed, so why is PoM worthy of the chopping block? Or rather the Nerf Bat.

Dolorian

01-13-2009, 08:15 AM

<cite>Alessyia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fine, then fix CoB. The most obvious solution would be to lengthen it's duration and recast to match PotM</blockquote>That would be nerfing CoB, not fixing it.fyi CoB lasts 17 secs , with another 1.2 for each item that increases the duration of buffs( bracer from seb / TSO signature )CoB has a recast of 60 seconds (30 secs with either RoK or TSO set gear ),and the timer starts as soon as the spell is cast, CoB also adds haste (40) and an interupt on each hit.PotM on the other hand has a 90 sec recast which starts after the spell ends,so any increase in duration also increases recast time by the same amount.Jcap reduces the recast from 90 secs to 60 secs but that only works on one out oftwo if not three casts of PotM thanks to the immunity on Jcap.So in the end a dirge has CoB up 1/2 the time while a troub has PotM up 1/3.5 the time.And because CoB has an interupt ( great in instances or pvp ) and haste while PotM has INT ( yay )the proc on PotM should be doing overall more damage than the one on CoB

Dolorian

01-13-2009, 08:17 AM

<cite>Alessyia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>This particular change was one of those, if you were unable to see it, then I suggest you start looking at the game as a non chanter for a while.</blockquote>I did look at it from another perspective. I took a purely mathematical approach to the subject and discovered there is a distinct lacking of logic. One could easily point fingers at several other recent AA abilities added that have a potential to drastically alter parses, and most of them are not Enchanter based. It all boils down to Skill and Talent; IE in how you use them. The talented players will always perform well above what is expected of them. So far, I've not seen anyone call for those other skills to be nerfed, so why is PoM worthy of the chopping block? Or rather the Nerf Bat.</blockquote>If PoM was a summonner spell there would have been a lot less complaining,take for example the new insane proc buff inquisitors get.But PoM is for chanters and chanters are up there in class scaling with templars and assassins.

Noaani

01-13-2009, 08:29 AM

<cite>Alessyia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I did look at it from another perspective. I took a purely mathematical approach to the subject and discovered there is a distinct lacking of logic. One could easily point fingers at several other recent AA abilities added that have a potential to drastically alter parses, and most of them are not Enchanter based. It all boils down to Skill and Talent; IE in how you use them. The talented players will always perform well above what is expected of them. So far, I've not seen anyone call for those other skills to be nerfed, so why is PoM worthy of the chopping block? Or rather the Nerf Bat.</blockquote>Name 1 other achievement that cost a single point and has the potential to increase a groups DPS as much as PoM.

TwistedFaith

01-13-2009, 08:57 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Alessyia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I did look at it from another perspective. I took a purely mathematical approach to the subject and discovered there is a distinct lacking of logic. One could easily point fingers at several other recent AA abilities added that have a potential to drastically alter parses, and most of them are not Enchanter based. It all boils down to Skill and Talent; IE in how you use them. The talented players will always perform well above what is expected of them. So far, I've not seen anyone call for those other skills to be nerfed, so why is PoM worthy of the chopping block? Or rather the Nerf Bat.</blockquote>Name 1 other achievement that cost a single point and has the potential to increase a groups DPS as much as PoM.</blockquote>I dont understand your point, you need 170+ points to get PoM, if PoM effected just the enchanter then 'maybe' you would have a valid point but its group wide so what is the problem?Do you want to make a post about how troubs shouldnt get their version of time compression as thats something that is only for illusionists? Or how about dirges getting a IA spell?To me it seems SOE simply gave a PoTM spell to enchanters and then gave enchanter style buffs to troubs/dirges in upbeat tempo and whatever that dirge one is called. What exactly is the problem?

Noaani

01-13-2009, 09:15 AM

<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont understand your point, you need 170+ points to get PoM</blockquote>131 actually. Every level 80 enchanter should have had it the day TSO launched.The point is it was overpowered, this was obvious to all those that are not aware of the inherint superiority of the enchanter class, and it has been rebalanced.<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do you want to make a post about how troubs shouldnt get their version of time compression as thats something that is only for illusionists? Or how about dirges getting a IA spell?</blockquote>If bards had the same combination of personal DPS and utility that they can bring to a raid that an enchanter does, I would probably be saying the same thing I am now about PoM. Although dirges come close to chanters, they still fall short in both DPS and utility to a coercer.

Ammolite

01-13-2009, 02:06 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>If bards had the same combination of personal DPS and utility that they can bring to a raid that an enchanter does, I would probably be saying the same thing I am now about PoM. Although dirges come close to chanters, they still fall short in both DPS and utility to a coercer.</blockquote>Please forgive me if I'm too harsh, for this is an issue that's really important to me.First, Illusionists have to work really really hard to get the best gear, and try to outbid wizards and warloks. Not only that, but they must prove themselves to be a useful DPS spot, so some Illys started figuring out how to parse. You non-stop cast. I'm not sure any other class makes as many clicks as I do on an average fight, but illys do. How many classes have very short recast timers and tons of spells that are all very important? I work really hard for my DPS, unlike some classes out there, and I can only get this DPS when I've got great gear on.There is no reason why SoE should do this.Second, bards in my guild do just about as much DPS as I do ( I'm not the best geared Enchanter, but I'm working on it ), sometimes more or less, depending. I've seen them hit 6k before, sometimes even more than that. If you're pointing the finger at Enchanters and thinking that we shouldn't be DPS, then do the same to bards. But I'd much rather that they increase our abilities instead of nerfing them. I would like harder mobs, I would not like mobs that we killed to be harder though.

Chefren

01-13-2009, 02:14 PM

<cite>Ammolite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Second, bards in my guild do just about as much DPS as I do ( I'm not the best geared Enchanter, but I'm working on it ), sometimes more or less, depending. I've seen them hit 6k before, sometimes even more than that. If you're pointing the finger at Enchanters and thinking that we shouldn't be DPS, then do the same to bards. But I'd much rather that they increase our abilities instead of nerfing them. I would like harder mobs, I would not like mobs that we killed to be harder though.</blockquote>The problem with Bard dps if there is one is that it's basically all (60%+) auto attack dps. So if Bards parse too much it's because auto attack is too powerful. I'd rather be doing more damage from my CAs and Spells and less from auto attack.

Ammolite

01-13-2009, 02:51 PM

<cite>Einina@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ammolite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Second, bards in my guild do just about as much DPS as I do ( I'm not the best geared Enchanter, but I'm working on it ), sometimes more or less, depending. I've seen them hit 6k before, sometimes even more than that. If you're pointing the finger at Enchanters and thinking that we shouldn't be DPS, then do the same to bards. But I'd much rather that they increase our abilities instead of nerfing them. I would like harder mobs, I would not like mobs that we killed to be harder though.</blockquote>The problem with Bard dps if there is one is that it's basically all (60%+) auto attack dps. So if Bards parse too much it's because auto attack is too powerful. I'd rather be doing more damage from my CAs and Spells and less from auto attack.</blockquote>All we really have are our CAs on these new battles, but the bards still do really good damage even at ranged ( or so it seems ). Anyway, our DPS with our auto attack is still a pretty good chunk ( well, 15% ).We're like bards, buff bots that have figured out how to DPS. Leave us alone please.

Gungo

01-13-2009, 03:08 PM

It likely was doing more dps then what was intended. Expect more changes in the future. It an mmo it happens.And most times if people are not Emo you can see what will get changed. For instance Expect all the bane procs to get /nerfed/fixedExpect some more gear/AA changes with the agro adjustmentsExpect shadowknights dps to get nerfed in some form or another in the future. and likely many more things that I really don't care about listing.and if you havent noticed if any one ability in game become so powerful it becomes a decent amount of your overall parse. It is not a good ability, it is likely to good of an ability that will be changed, Just like double atk was when it first came out.

Pins

01-13-2009, 03:18 PM

<cite>Ammolite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Einina@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ammolite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Second, bards in my guild do just about as much DPS as I do ( I'm not the best geared Enchanter, but I'm working on it ), sometimes more or less, depending. I've seen them hit 6k before, sometimes even more than that. If you're pointing the finger at Enchanters and thinking that we shouldn't be DPS, then do the same to bards. But I'd much rather that they increase our abilities instead of nerfing them. I would like harder mobs, I would not like mobs that we killed to be harder though.</blockquote>The problem with Bard dps if there is one is that it's basically all (60%+) auto attack dps. So if Bards parse too much it's because auto attack is too powerful. I'd rather be doing more damage from my CAs and Spells and less from auto attack.</blockquote>All we really have are our CAs on these new battles, but the bards still do really good damage even at ranged ( or so it seems ). Anyway, our DPS with our auto attack is still a pretty good chunk ( well, 15% ).We're like bards, buff bots that have figured out how to DPS. Leave us alone please.</blockquote>This is a joke, right? If auto-attack is doing 15% of my DPS then I'd quit. Because there's no way your auto-attack even approaches 15%, unless you fail at casting spells, in which case, I don't know what to say. But Considering you probably do ~600 DPS from auto-attack, that means you are doing 4000 dps, which means well, you aren't that great. I can cast 2 spells and do 4k dps. So yah.......

Violat0r

01-13-2009, 05:44 PM

Its obvious it needs toning down, if you cant see that you are either blinkered and/or stupid.

Detor

01-13-2009, 05:59 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>131 actually. Every level 80 enchanter should have had it the day TSO launched.</blockquote>Herein lies the reason the majority of the time people disagree with your view on things. You believe that every lvl80 has at a base minimum 131 apparently. You believe that everybody's first thought is "I know, I'll ditch all my old AAs, and build up the TSO tree." Some people out there probably didn't even realize that was an option. In another thread somebody says something has been nerfed, and your immediately reaction is to tell them of how you've never needed it in any raid you've done, so it's worthless and people shouldn't complain about it. It's just plain not the type of posting style that's going to have others rallying behind you agreeing with your sentiment.

Natthan

01-13-2009, 07:45 PM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>131 actually. Every level 80 enchanter, That has a clue about the mechanics of their class, should have had it the day TSO launched.</blockquote>Herein lies the reason the majority of the time people disagree with your view on things. You believe that every lvl80 has at a base minimum 131 apparently. You believe that everybody's first thought is "I know, I'll ditch all my old AAs, and build up the TSO tree." Some people out there probably didn't even realize that was an option. In another thread somebody says something has been nerfed, and your immediately reaction is to tell them of how you've never needed it in any raid you've done, so it's worthless and people shouldn't complain about it. It's just plain not the type of posting style that's going to have others rallying behind you agreeing with your sentiment.</blockquote>Fixed it for Noaani

Lethe5683

01-13-2009, 08:10 PM

It's the fact that enchanters have both high DPS and tons of utility. You have been unbalanced for quite some time, now they seem to be taking small changes to fix that.

xpraetorianx

01-13-2009, 09:04 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's the fact that enchanters have both high DPS and tons of utility. You have been unbalanced for quite some time, now they seem to be taking small changes to fix that.</blockquote>Incorrect. A coercer at its base does NOT have high DPS comparable to lets say an assassin or Brigand or Wizard. A coercer requires ALOT of gear adjustments to make their DPS go higher. By your statement, and since it was extremely generalized, ALL coercers out there are sup'd up. This is not true. A coercer that casually plays group instances parses on PAR with everyone in his group. Which is intended. A coercer that raids has access to gear that makes him a BETTER raider. Dont confuse the two. Just because a RAIDING coercer outparses someone who does not, or does not have the gear... does not make them overpowered. Raiding requires more DPS and even more utility. If you compared my raiding coercer and some random one pulled out of a group I would have him beat easily in all numbers more than likely. Why? Because the content 'I DO' is not the same as theirs. Therefore, requiring fundamentally different capability in both damage output and utility to match the encounters I take part in. Its like trying to compare Gynok Moltar and BoneGrinder... and complaining Gynok does more DPS. There's epic mobs in game and there's epic players. Learn to accept it.So dont confuse the two, otherwise people just come off as whiny. Most people THINK they know everything about anything and can just spout off insessent rants, hehe. I dont claim to know everything but I think I can tell the difference about two distinctly different sides of the game which require two different skill sets, both human and game, to function.

Lethe5683

01-13-2009, 09:15 PM

<cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's the fact that enchanters have both high DPS and tons of utility. You have been unbalanced for quite some time, now they seem to be taking small changes to fix that.</blockquote>Incorrect. A coercer at its base does NOT have high DPS comparable to lets say an assassin or Brigand or Wizard. A coercer requires ALOT of gear adjustments to make their DPS go higher. By your statement, and since it was extremely generalized, ALL coercers out there are sup'd up. This is not true. A coercer that casually plays group instances parses on PAR with everyone in his group. Which is intended. A coercer that raids has access to gear that makes him a BETTER raider. Dont confuse the two. Just because a RAIDING coercer outparses someone who does not, or does not have the gear... does not make them overpowered. Raiding requires more DPS and even more utility. If you compared my raiding coercer and some random one pulled out of a group I would have him beat easily in all numbers more than likely. Why? Because the content 'I DO' is not the same as theirs. Therefore, requiring fundamentally different capability in both damage output and utility to match the encounters I take part in. Its like trying to compare Gynok Moltar and BoneGrinder... and complaining Gynok does more DPS. There's epic mobs in game and there's epic players. Learn to accept it.So dont confuse the two, otherwise people just come off as whiny. Most people THINK they know everything about anything and can just spout off insessent rants, hehe. I dont claim to know everything but I think I can tell the difference about two distinctly different sides of the game which require two different skill sets, both human and game, to function.</blockquote>See there'a the problem, coercers should NOT be parseing on par with most in the group given they all have identicle skill and equipment. Enchanters should be parseing somewhere between bards and rogues who are not fulley DPS setup.

Alessyia

01-13-2009, 09:44 PM

I see the same ridiculous attitudes each time a subject like this comes up: "Oh if Chanters did less DPS we wouldn't care" or "If Bards did the same DPS we'd rally to nerf their utilities too." Sounds like a bunch of selfish brats in a sandbox rather than people with a common goal. Given the high cooperation oriented content in this xpac, such logic is broke. Stop living by the parse and start focusing on the content. Nerfing an ability that gives extra damage to everyone makes about as much sense as outlawing the use of tires because of speeders.It seems to me, that what this really boils down to is character development. Some people put a lot of focus and work into knowing their skills, ideal casting orders, function of their utilities/spells/arts, and deciphering what gear plays best to their strengths. As such they've managed to bring more to the table than simple buff-bots or weak utility classes. That is why, in RoK, I saw many good, nay great, Bards parsing in the top five or very close to it. Every player I've met who has put enough scrutinization into their toons has managed to perform well above the expected 'norm' for their class. (I'm no longer speaking of utility only. :-p) It's all about knowing your weaknesses and how to play off your advantages to cover for them. Most importantly; going after the gear that will give you the most bang for your buck rather than the first upgrade offered.My recomendation is, if you feel like you're lacking in comparison to your neighbor then go spend some time figuring out what you can do better. Defeatists complain about what they don't have, while others look at what they do have and build from there. We're supposed to be working together to beat the Monsters in the game, not each other on the parse.

Alessyia

01-13-2009, 09:48 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Name 1 other achievement that cost a single point and has the potential to increase a groups DPS as much as PoM.</blockquote>Why must it be a competition? It's a skill that benefits everyone and your arguement is "but they didn't have to spend as many points for it." I suggest you look at Guardian buffs. They're adding about 10% CA and Spell Damage constantly, which works out to approximately 100 spell damage for finger wagglers. Also look at the Illy temp buff which boosts group damage by 10% (base, I think) for 20 seconds. I know the Dirge/Bards got something too, mentioned earlier in this thread. All of which is not readily tracked via a parser. Hmm, perhaps that's the problem, it was too easy to see what it did. I'm sure there are plenty more out there I've yet to mention. Me personally, I'm always happy when anything new is added that benefits everyone.The best sentiment I've heard is this: If you feel a class is OP then raise the others up, instead of bringing one down. If raising them up creates too many issues, then you've failed as a developer because you set the 'bar' too high.Most of us have felt (at some time) that the Devs just ran out of good ideas when they got to our class while adding content and figured they could settle it with a BINGO Wheel and some Ping Pong balls with generic ideas written on them. All of us have felt that the right hand (Itemization) just ain't talking to the left (Ability/Functionality). I often invision two kids in a classroom sitting in those old desks with the dividers built up around them so you can't see anything but your work while Von-Helga the Prussian Nun with a 500 lb grip wraps their knuckles periodically shouting "NEIN TALKEN!"

Natthan

01-13-2009, 09:49 PM

<cite>Alessyia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see the same ridiculous attitudes each time a subject like this comes up: "Oh if Chanters did less DPS we wouldn't care" or "If Bards did the same DPS we'd rally to nerf their utilities too." Sounds like a bunch of selfish brats in a sandbox rather than people with a common goal. Given the high cooperation oriented content in this xpac, such logic is broke. Stop living by the parse and start focusing on the content. Nerfing an ability that gives extra damage to everyone makes about as much sense as outlawing the use of tires because of speeders.It seems to me, that what this really boils down to is character development. Some people put a lot of focus and work into knowing their skills, ideal casting orders, function of their utilities/spells/arts, and deciphering what gear plays best to their strengths. As such they've managed to bring more to the table than simple buff-bots or weak utility classes. That is why, in RoK, I saw many good, nay great, Bards parsing in the top five or very close to it. Every player I've met who has put enough scrutinization into their toons has managed to perform well above the expected 'norm' for their class. (I'm no longer speaking of utility only. :-p) It's all about knowing your weaknesses and how to play off your advantages to cover for them. Most importantly; going after the gear that will give you the most bang for your buck rather than the first upgrade offered.My recomendation is, if you feel like you're lacking in comparison to your neighbor then go spend some time figuring out what you can do better. Defeatists complain about what they don't have, while others look at what they do have and build from there. We're supposed to be working together to beat the Monsters in the game, not each other on the parse.</blockquote>Alright, 1st of all, Stop and think before you sit and tell someone that leveled a bard to 80 Selfish, Its down there for THE WORST classes to level.2nd of all, Bards can parse good, If they have good gear, but Encanters with = gear will beat a bard in DPS, and bring just as much if not more utility.

Lethe5683

01-13-2009, 09:50 PM

<cite>Alessyia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see the same ridiculous attitudes each time a subject like this comes up: "Oh if Chanters did less DPS we wouldn't care" or "If Bards did the same DPS we'd rally to nerf their utilities too." Sounds like a bunch of selfish brats in a sandbox rather than people with a common goal. Given the high cooperation oriented content in this xpac, such logic is broke. Stop living by the parse and start focusing on the content. Nerfing an ability that gives extra damage to everyone makes about as much sense as outlawing the use of tires because of speeders.It seems to me, that what this really boils down to is character development. Some people put a lot of focus and work into knowing their skills, ideal casting orders, function of their utilities/spells/arts, and deciphering what gear plays best to their strengths. As such they've managed to bring more to the table than simple buff-bots or weak utility classes. That is why, in RoK, I saw many good, nay great, Bards parsing in the top five or very close to it. Every player I've met who has put enough scrutinization into their toons has managed to perform well above the expected 'norm' for their class. (I'm no longer speaking of utility only. :-p) It's all about knowing your weaknesses and how to play off your advantages to cover for them. Most importantly; going after the gear that will give you the most bang for your buck rather than the first upgrade offered.My recomendation is, if you feel like you're lacking in comparison to your neighbor then go spend some time figuring out what you can do better. Defeatists complain about what they don't have, while others look at what they do have and build from there. We're supposed to be working together to beat the Monsters in the game, not each other on the parse.</blockquote>You forget the fact that some classes can do little other than their primary function reguardless of gear.

Noaani

01-13-2009, 09:52 PM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Herein lies the reason the majority of the time people disagree with your view on things. You believe that every lvl80 has at a base minimum 131 apparently. You believe that everybody's first thought is "I know, I'll ditch all my old AAs, and build up the TSO tree." Some people out there probably didn't even realize that was an option. In another thread somebody says something has been nerfed, and your immediately reaction is to tell them of how you've never needed it in any raid you've done, so it's worthless and people shouldn't complain about it. It's just plain not the type of posting style that's going to have others rallying behind you agreeing with your sentiment.</blockquote>My appologies.I make the assumption that people playing this game have a basic understanding of its mechanics. It is my continued belief that those few people that play this game but do not have this basic understanding of mechanics should not post on the forums in any capacity except asking questions, as the missinformation they spread could have an impact one day.As you pointed out, I am constantly faced with people here that do not have this basic understanding of game mechanics that I assume all to have, hence people disagreeing with me.You can feel free to call me any derogitory name you can concieve for stating bluntly that people that disagree with me need a lesson on game mechanics, but I would rather you go out and attempt to prove me wrong.

Lethe5683

01-13-2009, 10:05 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Herein lies the reason the majority of the time people disagree with your view on things. You believe that every lvl80 has at a base minimum 131 apparently. You believe that everybody's first thought is "I know, I'll ditch all my old AAs, and build up the TSO tree." Some people out there probably didn't even realize that was an option. In another thread somebody says something has been nerfed, and your immediately reaction is to tell them of how you've never needed it in any raid you've done, so it's worthless and people shouldn't complain about it. It's just plain not the type of posting style that's going to have others rallying behind you agreeing with your sentiment.</blockquote>My appologies.I make the assumption that people playing this game have a basic understanding of its mechanics. It is my continued belief that those few people that play this game but do not have this basic understanding of mechanics should not post on the forums in any capacity except asking questions, as the missinformation they spread could have an impact one day.As you pointed out, I am constantly faced with people here that do not have this basic understanding of game mechanics that I assume all to have, hence people disagreeing with me.You can feel free to call me any derogitory name you can concieve for stating bluntly that people that disagree with me need a lesson on game mechanics, but I would rather you go out and attempt to prove me wrong.</blockquote>Even worse is those who are wrong yet constantly say they are right even after being proved wrong many times. *cough* mogzilla *cough*

Alessyia

01-13-2009, 10:21 PM

<cite>Natthan@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright, 1st of all, Stop and think before you sit and tell someone that leveled a bard to 80 Selfish, Its down there for THE WORST classes to level.2nd of all, Bards can parse good, If they have good gear, but Encanters with = gear will beat a bard in DPS, and bring just as much if not more utility.</blockquote>Anyone who played a Coercer to max prior to (or even during EoF) can attest to the struggle it is to get up in levels. Back then, the Troub and even Dirge had an advantage at leveling. It was a matter of knowing what gear and skill combinations would help you along. A Coercer had to join endless groups to get up, because solo'ing was an arduous option or nearly non-option.And there's your problem. Once again you're concerned with what your neighbor is doing instead of yourself. Illy's have always been high up there, that was always the attraction. A Chanters choice was always: more utility versus more DPS. Once EoF came out Illy's were on par with Coercers for Utility, although I can see how some felt they were ahead. Thus when RoK came out something needed to be changed. More importantly, grant the Coercer survivability. (Let's face facts, mobs gained silly amounts of HP and could hit like trucks when we all first showed up and Coercers had been struggling long before this.) So they simply reversed how the Reactives worked for Coercers and that proved an instant solution. It also proved to be a drastic change in their ability to DPS (a potential which was always there). Talented Coercers had already found ways of using Reactives and the old PE to boost their DPS quite high in raid, but nobody really knew this because there were so few playing them. All that really took place is the Coercer was given an easier way to match tick with their true counterpart: The Illy (not the bards). Thanks to itemization and friendly competition they found ways to truly maximize their damage. Which in turn drew more people to playing the classes and thus gained it more attention and now here we are.If you're a Bard who feels they should be parsing on par with other scouts, then I support you fully. If you feel Enchanters need to be nerfed because you're not parsing on par with a ~Mage~ then you're nuts. All classes were not created equally, this much was made clear from the start. Trying to pull others down because you feel they got it easier is just plain pettiness. Petition for better damage increasors via AA's or gear, don't petition for nerfs. That's just silly.

Noaani

01-13-2009, 10:28 PM

<cite>Alessyia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're a Bard who feels they should be parsing on par with other scouts, then I support you fully. If you feel Enchanters need to be nerfed because you're not parsing on par with a ~Mage~ then you're nuts. All classes were not created equally, this much was made clear from the start. Trying to pull others down because you feel they got it easier is just plain pettiness. Petition for better damage increasors via AA's or gear, don't petition for nerfs. That's just silly.</blockquote>You had a good post going until you got to this part.Utility should not be DPSing on par with DPS classes. bards should not be parsing on par with rouges or preditors (as is the case now), and chanters should not be parsing on par with summoners and sorcerers (currently this is NOT the case).Illusionists have had a long run of parsing higher than they should, coercers have had less time, but they are there now. I am yet to see an explination from anyone as to why chanters should be parsing higher than summoners or on par with sorcerers from anyone. Its not often I say a class should be or will be nerfed, but chanters have had it coming since KoS.

Ammolite

01-13-2009, 10:52 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Alessyia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're a Bard who feels they should be parsing on par with other scouts, then I support you fully. If you feel Enchanters need to be nerfed because you're not parsing on par with a ~Mage~ then you're nuts. All classes were not created equally, this much was made clear from the start. Trying to pull others down because you feel they got it easier is just plain pettiness. Petition for better damage increasors via AA's or gear, don't petition for nerfs. That's just silly.</blockquote>You had a good post going until you got to this part.Utility should not be DPSing on par with DPS classes. bards should not be parsing on par with rouges or preditors (as is the case now), and chanters should not be parsing on par with summoners and sorcerers (currently this is NOT the case).Illusionists have had a long run of parsing higher than they should, coercers have had less time, but they are there now. I am yet to see an explination from anyone as to why chanters should be parsing higher than summoners or on par with sorcerers from anyone. Its not often I say a class should be or will be nerfed, but chanters have had it coming since KoS.</blockquote>Our parse is usually like this:Ranger/ SwashWizardCoercer ( VERY well geared )SKIlly ( VERY well geared )WarlockTroub ( VERY well geared )Dirge ( VERY well geared )Fury ( VERY well geared )Something like that. This is for trash too. Anyway, as you can see, you have to be well geared, and well played to be a good DPSer. Now stop complaining about Illys needing to be nerfed, play one yourself and you'll see how much work it takes to get anything above 3k.Anyway, if utility is what you guys want, please change my Savante to a 1 minute timer and same with Mana Shroud. I'd like to help give my group power again. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But please, let my class be my class. It's improvement for all people in my group, espeically all the casters, and even the troub! I realize this will be nerfed, that's fine. But don't do it so harshly. 100-200 points is fine, but 300 is starting to push it.

Detor

01-13-2009, 10:55 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>As you pointed out, I am constantly faced with people here that do not have this basic understanding of game mechanics that I assume all to have, hence people disagreeing with me.</blockquote>Yet another shining example of your winner attitude. "Disagree with me and that just proves you don't understand the game as well as me. I'm never wrong."Plus, there's a thread on this subforum even that shows you making mistaken statements one after the other. I say warlocks hate management is being reduced in a major way, you deny it (because you didn't know the warlock version was without the -8% hate mod you were seeing on your wizard version); CLEARLY you don't know everything, about every class and you can in fact be wrong about things. Heck, it took 7 pages of me saying what a huge reduction in dehate it was for warlocks, and you telling me "You just don't know the game mechanics, it's not a nerf, it's a gift!" before we finally figured out that the warlock version was missing something that the wizard version had.

Noaani

01-13-2009, 11:56 PM

<cite>Ammolite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Our parse is usually like this:</blockquote>I looked at the wizard and the illusionist in your guild, the wizard has considerably better gear overall than the two illusionists I was able to view. Considerably better gear is an understatment actually.The illusinoists I looked at were actually rather poorly geared, and in no way should they be beating a warlock on a parse.If its the third illusionist that is beating your warlock, without seeing his gear and comparing it to the warlock, and also seeing who has which buffs, there is little more that can be commented on.

Noaani

01-14-2009, 12:04 AM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>As you pointed out, I am constantly faced with people here that do not have this basic understanding of game mechanics that I assume all to have, hence people disagreeing with me.</blockquote>Yet another shining example of your winner attitude. "Disagree with me and that just proves you don't understand the game as well as me. I'm never wrong."Plus, there's a thread on this subforum even that shows you making mistaken statements one after the other. I say warlocks hate management is being reduced in a major way, you deny it (because you didn't know the warlock version was without the -8% hate mod you were seeing on your wizard version); CLEARLY you don't know everything, about every class and you can in fact be wrong about things. Heck, it took 7 pages of me saying what a huge reduction in dehate it was for warlocks, and you telling me "You just don't know the game mechanics, it's not a nerf, it's a gift!" before we finally figured out that the warlock version was missing something that the wizard version had.</blockquote>I could respond to this, but it will get the thread locked.Instead, all I will say is post pictures of your spells next time. No one is going to know every aspect of every spell for every class minutes after they are placed on a test server. However, not knowing changes that have been on test for minutes does not mean a person can not have a knowledge of game mechanics.

Detor

01-14-2009, 12:17 AM

Taken to PMs.

xpraetorianx

01-14-2009, 01:17 AM

I know a Bard who can parse 11k with no miracles. This class argument is moot.

Natthan

01-14-2009, 01:33 AM

<cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know a Bard who can parse 11k with no miracles. This class argument is moot.</blockquote>Yes, They can parse that IF:1) You rob better targets of good buffs2) They get extremely lucky w/ procsAmung other things.

Noaani

01-14-2009, 02:29 AM

<cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know a Bard who can parse 11k with no miracles. This class argument is moot.</blockquote>I *can* parse over 20k as a wizard, but its on specific encounters with specific circumstances, and such cases are not appropriate to use for class balance discussions. I also know furies that can parse higher in very *very* specific situations.If its not a zonewide parse, it has no meaning.

Jeepned2

01-14-2009, 03:43 AM

Ok, you are really starting to irritate me real bad with throwing the term "Bard" around like we somehow do the same amount of dps. If your Dirges are not doing at least 1-1.5K more dps then your Troubs, well get some new Dirges. In a few cases, maybe you just happen to have some sort of freak Troub, but I doubt it. If you want to complain about Dirges doing high DPS then say so. Ours are normally in the 5-6K parse range depending on the Mob. The troubs are 3.5-4K with an occasional (very occasional) 5K parse. I'm not even going to bother with the occasional spike that either of us MIGHT get. We are not equal, we are not the same, we have totally different buffs and Troubs normally get stuck in a group that provides very little help to our own DPS. But then again it goes with the territory of our class. I'd kill to have an Inquisitor in my group, but that's normally where the Dirge is. ( I get the fury, and luckily he's a very good one ). Setting up raid groups to improve the Troubs DPS is a non-starter, like there are Raid Leaders out there concerned about improving the Troubs DPS over all other concerns. (I think we rate with the Defilers on the dps concern scale used by all Raid Leaders) We get mages, mages who bring little help to our dps, the Illusionist is the exception. But then all our non MT groups have an Illusionist, so I don't get any "extra" benefit there that would allow me to catch up to the Dirge's DPS. Does the Illusionist in my group normally parse higher then the other Illusionists? Yes. I do I think it's because she has the Troub in her group? I'd like to think so. (Yes, she is the best equiped Illusionist we have, but bringing that up too much would damage my fragile ego.)For those who are complaining about how powerful PoTM is, take it, nerf it, destroy it for all I care. It helps my dps some, but not like CoB does. But you may want to talk to the mages in your guild before you decide that it's not needed as is.As for nerfing Peace of Mind. Any nerf to any group or raid wide buff is bad as far as I'm concerned. Was it overpowered? Maybe. But it benefitted a lot of people against mobs that are getting pretty hard to kill.

Noaani

01-14-2009, 03:56 AM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>For those who are complaining about how powerful PoTM is, take it, nerf it, destroy it for all I care. It helps my dps some, but not like CoB does. But you may want to talk to the mages in your guild before you decide that it's not needed as is.</blockquote>Its funny, between PoM, PotM and CoB, PotM is the lesser buff, yet it is the one people often call out for nerfing when they are upset with bards...

Aule

01-14-2009, 01:50 PM

Skill of the player and a good understanding of math, as well as fine tunement of gear, are what allow two characters of the same class to do tremendously different amounts of damage. Masters help too. As a coercer, I do a darn good amount of damage. I generally land in the top 3 for my guild. I did darn good damage for my class prior to LU45 bringing us into parity with illusionists, LU45 boosted it significantly. I'm certainly not top-end gearwise, my guild hasn't killed trak or byzola and when TSO released we did not have anybody in guild with 6 set VP pattern. I have maybe 5 pieces of good raid-obtained fabled loot. The rest of the gear I wear is Legendary gear obtained through group instancing. I do have all my DPS spells mastered. I've also played this character, and this character only, for 3 years. I think a lot of people suck at their class due to coat-tailing their higher level char who mentors down and power levels them to 80. Then they start raiding. Over the 3 years I've spent countless hours analyzing the math behind my class, adjusting for major changes in gear-theory with ROK and TSO releases, and constant fine-tunement to squeeze that extra tenth of a percent increase in dps. Obviously this is not the case with everybody. Unfortunately, people point at one person who has obtained true mastery of their class, and compare against someone who is mediocre at their class and try to make a comparison between the two.

Illine

01-14-2009, 02:03 PM

true, coercers need a lot of gear to parse high. Like the VP robe (+3 proc on hostage).you need to constantly cast to keep perpetuity up and the int line endspell helps a lot with the dps.just a question, how bad is the nerf of PoM? can you give numbers please??

Aule

01-14-2009, 02:08 PM

The numbers I saw dropped the bottom about 15% and the top about 45%. Don't have exact numbers to put up at the moment. Think there might be some on eq2flames though.

Melli

01-14-2009, 03:22 PM

First of all, people need to quit lumping the enchanters together. While I dps is similar, our utility is not. As a MT coercer, my DPS suffers a LOT. I don't get the buffs other mages get. There are certain things I have to do as far as buffing and power management go that all take priority over pushing my buttons. So to do decent DPS, I cast myself silly, constantly trying to get that optimal casting order, never pausing for a second from about 10 seconds before incoming until the fight is over. I suggest next time you're thinking about how overpowered a chanter is, you actually stop and watch one for awhile. A good enchanter works his butt off for that parse.PoM was honestly the ONLY thing that was a huge boon for me. I was so excited to have something that I could spend AA points on that actually boosted my dps a little, and it benefitted my group. My set gear buffs everyone else. My AAs buff everyone else. Even my second end line ability buffs someone else.Bards have way more utility than a coercer does (they are about matched with an illy) and a good bard will be with me on the parse (yes, our dirges parse what I do and come very close to a stacked illy). It just blows my mind that bards whined to get it nerfed. If I were as childish, I could find half a dozen overpowered bard skills to complain about. Just remember, what comes around goes around and bards on overall higher on the OP list than coercers are.

Natthan

01-14-2009, 03:31 PM

<cite>Melli wrote:</cite><blockquote>First of all, people need to quit lumping the enchanters together. While I dps is similar, our utility is not. As a MT coercer, my DPS suffers a LOT. I don't get the buffs other mages get. There are certain things I have to do as far as buffing and power management go that all take priority over pushing my buttons. So to do decent DPS, I cast myself silly, constantly trying to get that optimal casting order, never pausing for a second from about 10 seconds before incoming until the fight is over. I suggest next time you're thinking about how overpowered a chanter is, you actually stop and watch one for awhile. A good enchanter works his butt off for that parse.PoM was honestly the ONLY thing that was a huge boon for me. I was so excited to have something that I could spend AA points on that actually boosted my dps a little, and it benefitted my group. My set gear buffs everyone else. My AAs buff everyone else. Even my second end line ability buffs someone else.Bards have way more utility than a coercer does (they are about matched with an illy) and a good bard will be with me on the parse (yes, our dirges parse what I do and come very close to a stacked illy). It just blows my mind that bards whined to get it nerfed. If I were as childish, I could find half a dozen overpowered bard skills to complain about. Just remember, what comes around goes around and bards on overall higher on the OP list than coercers are.</blockquote>You realise a MT dirge gets the shaft group set up wise too right? You do realise that a bard has to work their butt off to get good DPS too right? Its funny that you can still put up "Decent" DPS even doing your Utility stuff through a whole fight, if a dirge has to keep rezing, Their parse goes down considerably. Also, Bards are not OP, They are actually fairly balanced at this point, as are coercers when they aren't in a group with a troub, but when a coercer does actually get into the mage group, Their DPS is pretty huge.

Aule

01-14-2009, 03:39 PM

I certainly work my butt off for that parse, and my wrist and shoulder too. In MT group you can still get a fair amount of buffage. Dirge gives 8% cast and crit rate, both dirge and templar giving proc rate, defiler giving ROA (assuming they're smart enough to cast it on you). You can also generally count on a higher survival rates in the MT group due to all the extra hps and such, at least, it always worked out that way for me. My survival in the OT group is much lower. Train your defiler to ROA you right before you peace of mind, get the templar to divine recovery when he sees the ROA on coercer message. Ideally you'll maximize your peace of mind return with yourself and PE pet in melee range with cob potm roa and divine recovery all going, jcap would be just asking for too much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Those make for some fun parses when everything lines up though.

Glerin

01-14-2009, 07:08 PM

i fail to see who gets what buffs and groups have to do with it, either you class is capable of X amount of dps, or its not.

Natthan

01-14-2009, 09:28 PM

<cite>Glerin wrote:</cite><blockquote>i fail to see who gets what buffs and groups have to do with it, either you class is capable of X amount of dps, or its not.</blockquote>If you fail to see how who gets certains buffs as important, I would have to say, Your probally a lack luster player, Just saying :-S

Noaani

01-14-2009, 09:44 PM

<cite>Glerin wrote:</cite><blockquote>i fail</blockquote>Indeed.A ranger without Illusionary Arm is capable of doing X DPS. A ranger with Illusionary arm is capable of doing (X *1.1) DPS.You could claim that this means a ranger is capable of doing (X * 1.1) DPS, but a ranger without Illusionary Arm will simply not reach that number.

Ammolite

01-15-2009, 02:20 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ammolite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Our parse is usually like this:</blockquote>I looked at the wizard and the illusionist in your guild, the wizard has considerably better gear overall than the two illusionists I was able to view. Considerably better gear is an understatment actually.The illusinoists I looked at were actually rather poorly geared, and in no way should they be beating a warlock on a parse.If its the third illusionist that is beating your warlock, without seeing his gear and comparing it to the warlock, and also seeing who has which buffs, there is little more that can be commented on.</blockquote>You must understand that the PvP servers have a very hard time taking down avatars because of the contested part of the pulling. So we're not uberly geared, but I beg to differ. Finks is very well geared. I'm the second illusionist, and I know I'm in crap gear, but I'm working on it. Only been in the guild for a few months. Our Coercer is Froggleg, and he gets great parses.So please, reconsider your overview. ( Wizard has been in the guild for forever, and the Warlock is new, but he was decently geared before )

Soldancer

01-15-2009, 03:33 AM

<cite>Melli wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are certain things I have to do as far as buffing and power management go that all take priority over pushing my buttons.</blockquote>So true. A coercer who holds focus only at dps can't do his job right in my eyes. Such a player should better play a wizzy or summoner. Things I have to give always a higher priority:- periodically (every 30 sec) check mana bars of all raid members and decide which one needs mana first- if someone dies check if he had a link, dps-buff, healer-buff or aggro-buff before and recast it (involve often to walk around)- check if someone without link dies to often and decide how to change dpsbuff/link-setup- keep always an eye on the MT health bar and in case it drops under 50% I have to cast stun/daze/interrupt to give the healers 2 or 3 seconds more time to heal up the MT- depending on situation always have an eye for possible adds and CC them until the raid have control over the add- Debuffing (we have a lot of debuffs)<cite>Glerin wrote:</cite><blockquote>i fail to see who gets what buffs and groups have to do with it, either you class is capable of X amount of dps, or its not.</blockquote>This comment is so dumb and stupid that it's not worth any answer. You must for sure be one of those who spamtells the corecer with "gimme dps buff, gimme link".

Trabbart

01-15-2009, 04:33 AM

<cite>Ammolite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Second, bards in my guild do just about as much DPS as I do</blockquote>Well you lost me there. IF any troub gets near your dps its because you are in a coma.

Noaani

01-15-2009, 04:56 AM

<cite>Trabbart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ammolite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Second, bards in my guild do just about as much DPS as I do</blockquote>Well you lost me there. IF any troub gets near your dps its because you are in a coma.</blockquote>Actually, he admitted that he had crap gear and the bards in his guild were very well geared.Its still a streach for this to happen, but with good enough/bad enough gear I can see it.

Illine

01-15-2009, 05:38 AM

<cite>Natthan@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Melli wrote:</cite><blockquote>First of all, people need to quit lumping the enchanters together. While I dps is similar, our utility is not. As a MT coercer, my DPS suffers a LOT. I don't get the buffs other mages get. There are certain things I have to do as far as buffing and power management go that all take priority over pushing my buttons. So to do decent DPS, I cast myself silly, constantly trying to get that optimal casting order, never pausing for a second from about 10 seconds before incoming until the fight is over. I suggest next time you're thinking about how overpowered a chanter is, you actually stop and watch one for awhile. A good enchanter works his butt off for that parse.PoM was honestly the ONLY thing that was a huge boon for me. I was so excited to have something that I could spend AA points on that actually boosted my dps a little, and it benefitted my group. My set gear buffs everyone else. My AAs buff everyone else. Even my second end line ability buffs someone else.Bards have way more utility than a coercer does (they are about matched with an illy) and a good bard will be with me on the parse (yes, our dirges parse what I do and come very close to a stacked illy). It just blows my mind that bards whined to get it nerfed. If I were as childish, I could find half a dozen overpowered bard skills to complain about. Just remember, what comes around goes around and bards on overall higher on the OP list than coercers are.</blockquote>You realise a MT dirge gets the shaft group set up wise too right? You do realise that a bard has to work their butt off to get good DPS too right? Its funny that you can still put up "Decent" DPS even doing your Utility stuff through a whole fight, if a dirge has to keep rezing, Their parse goes down considerably. Also, Bards are not OP, They are actually fairly balanced at this point, as are coercers when they aren't in a group with a troub, but when a coercer does actually get into the mage group, Their DPS is pretty huge.</blockquote>no one said bards don't work hard for their dps. but rezzing someone takes more time than managing mana.still, enchanters have far less buffs than bards, and most are mainly solo when most bard buffs are group and one raidwide.PoM was the only real dps buff we get for ourself. all our other buffs are for the group. our res line buff gives +16% heal crit (for priests), our hate transfert is for the tank, dps is for melee, coercive healing is for healers, thougt snap for tanks, mana ward generally only for tanks ... tashianna is a great debuff ... intellectual remedy is still for healers, our mythical gives a proc bonus for tanks taunts and soon peacefull link will be changed to target melee classes only. Coercer have not buffs to improve their dps. and in MT group all we get is maestro raidwide.so yeah a nerf like that hurts more coercers than illu since they have a lot more buffs to help them dps.

Jeepned2

01-15-2009, 11:09 AM

<cite>Melli wrote:</cite><blockquote>First of all, people need to quit lumping the enchanters together. While I dps is similar, our utility is not. As a MT coercer, my DPS suffers a LOT. I don't get the buffs other mages get. There are certain things I have to do as far as buffing and power management go that all take priority over pushing my buttons. So to do decent DPS, I cast myself silly, constantly trying to get that optimal casting order, never pausing for a second from about 10 seconds before incoming until the fight is over. I suggest next time you're thinking about how overpowered a chanter is, you actually stop and watch one for awhile. A good enchanter works his butt off for that parse.PoM was honestly the ONLY thing that was a huge boon for me. I was so excited to have something that I could spend AA points on that actually boosted my dps a little, and it benefitted my group. My set gear buffs everyone else. My AAs buff everyone else. Even my second end line ability buffs someone else.Bards have way more utility than a coercer does (they are about matched with an illy) and a good bard will be with me on the parse (yes, our dirges parse what I do and come very close to a stacked illy). It just blows my mind that bards whined to get it nerfed. If I were as childish, I could find half a dozen overpowered bard skills to complain about. Just remember, what comes around goes around and bards on overall higher on the OP list than coercers are.</blockquote>Not sure how this got to be a [Removed for Content] contest between Coercers and "Bards". I hope when you say "Bards" you mean Dirges. We Troubs don't normally complain too much about others abilities (with the exception of the Dirges). If you look at the Troub section you see that we don't complain about much at all, even though there are a few things wrong with us that really need fixing. Me personally, I don't like seeing any buffs that improve either a group's or the raid's DPS being nerfed. (Nor an individual buff for that matter). Even if PoM is nerfed, does it mean I'll see a Coercer parsing down around where I am? No. Does it mean that there is a chance that Dirges might parse higher then Coercers? Probably, unless a lot of rezzing is going on. Cutting on someone else's abilities only does one thing, hurts the raid. It don't help much who is out parsing who if you are not defeating the content. In the end, you're both dead with the rest of us.

Bhow

01-15-2009, 12:01 PM

Ok, to save myself having to further argue this mess, let me state a few *basic* assumptions Im going to use for the entire post...1) Assume all classes mentioned are played by equally skilled players.2) Assume all classes mentioned are equally geared.The main argument is whether or not PoM itself deserved a nerf. PoM as an ABILITY was perfectly fine, the issue people have (that i can tell, as well as my own personal opinion) is the classes it was given too.Mage dps tiers were meant to be sorcerers, summoners, enchanters, and the logic behind this is simple. Enchanters bring the most utility, so should parse the lowest of the mage classes. (Similar for bards) Now (as of the *end* of RoK), we have enchanters who are able to at least compete, if not exceed the dps capability of summoners, and in some cases the sorcerers. (I redirect you to the assumptions, just in case youve forgotten any of them).TSO gets released, and now enchanters are given PoM. No, it cannot rightfully be compared to PotM or CoB, at least in a raid setting, but it brought even *more* utility to the enchanters, and they were *still* dpsing as well or better than some of their mage counterparts. This is equivalent to a bard outparsing a rogue... It should NOT happen. You don't get to have all the utility and all the dps in one class... Thats the *point* of class balance.So, in the end, if you take PoM as an ability, the nerf is a bit unjustified, however, when taken in context with the classes it was given to, Yea, it needed to be nerfed.I SAY AGAIN, look back at the assumptions before you reply. I do NOT assume it is easy to play any class well, and I am in no way saying that anyone parsing well isnt bustin their butt to do so... Just that the best utility mage class should not be getting more power when it is already to powerful compared to its mage counterparts.

Noaani

01-15-2009, 12:12 PM

<cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>TSO gets released, and now enchanters are given PoM. No, it cannot rightfully be compared to PotM or CoB, at least in a raid setting</blockquote>PoM out DPS's PotM and CoB until you factor bard mythicals in. However, the increase in raidwide DPS from having raidwide CoB and PotM is an effect of the bard mythical, not the buffs themselves.When comparing PotM and CoB to other spell lines, you need to either compare them without the increase they get from mythicals, or you need to factor in the effect on mythicals from the other class you are comparing it to.PoM + power proc vs raidwide PotM... which is better?or...Single group PotM vs PoM, which is better?

Ballads

01-15-2009, 12:34 PM

LOl you people are crazy. Enchanter lack of dps or utility? Tho i see a lot of bard/chanters here arguing it should be T! dps here arguing. Chanter dps Has been and is out of control. I cant coment to much about lesser geared toons, but with high end gear Bard dps spikes out at 9kish. Simular geared chanters spike out at 13-14k. Before i even touch the rest of chanters amazing utility, first look at any power return parse. Only thing that ever beat chanters was pre nerf mystic epic. If they took everything else away but a chanters power regen abailitys they would still earn a raid spot for just those.

Ammolite

01-15-2009, 01:17 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bhow@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>TSO gets released, and now enchanters are given PoM. No, it cannot rightfully be compared to PotM or CoB, at least in a raid setting</blockquote>PoM out DPS's PotM and CoB until you factor bard mythicals in. However, the increase in raidwide DPS from having raidwide CoB and PotM is an effect of the bard mythical, not the buffs themselves.When comparing PotM and CoB to other spell lines, you need to either compare them without the increase they get from mythicals, or you need to factor in the effect on mythicals from the other class you are comparing it to.PoM + power proc vs raidwide PotM... which is better?or...Single group PotM vs PoM, which is better?</blockquote>I'd like to state that it's Coercers who have much more untility than illusionists. Illys get the buffs that are good, but then we get a 2.5-3 minute recast on a good power saver and power procs, and a tiny tiny power drain. If they want me for that utility and expect me not to focus on DPS so much, they need to fix it where I can be sitting at 80% power through all of Xebnok.But I quoted this for saying that, when TSO raiding came out, did you not notice it's all for casters and anything ranged? Of course CoB is going to be terrible unless it's on trash. Everyone is ranged.I believe that all classes should be able to get great DPS if they try hard enough and aren't a healer ( healers is where I see the balance happening, not from buffs ). Even furys can DPS pretty well when they push themselves really hard.

Aule

01-15-2009, 06:24 PM

I'm a coercer myself. I have to admit that POM is just insanely good fun where it's at now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I have to agree though that had this ability been given to summoners it would have at least upped their current complete lack of desirability. My desirability is pretty solid with or without something that adds a stupendous amount of damage for 1 aa. Do I want to see it nerfed? Well, no, and neither does my group. Will I still use it and optimize around it? Sure, it'll still be good. I think right now a lot of people are looking at enchanter dps and using POM as an excuse for why it's so high, when the bane proc items are a large part of it as well. I also agree with the statement that you'll see good dps in any class from any player who is bringing a high level of system mastery to their class. You'll see mediocre or poor dps from the top dps classes when played by people who don't have a good understanding. Just look at the assassins and wizards who fail to clear 1k dps at 80.