Rogue tanking ability becoming an afterthought?

[Igixnasii]

<p>Currently rogues get the benefit of quality taunts, and excellent AE hate generation, and with the right hate management they can easily tank and hold aggro, while mitigating against much of the incoming damage and maintaining a high avoidance with a shield or open handed.</p><p>The patch going in the way it is will destroy the rogues ability to tank:</p><p>- The taunts, while increased a little bit are nowhere near what fighters get, and the recast timer on the sta line - encounter taunt remains 20 seconds</p><p>- New AE hate generation rules mean that rogue AE abilities will not generate hate to the area, making tanking encounters and multiple encounters a nightmare at best, and impossible at worst.</p><p>I enjoy using my swashie to tank right now and surprise people who have never had a rogue tank anything, but with the changes to fighters there will be no comparison and those rogues who are currently mercinaries and enjoying the practice will be losing much of their effectiveness and certainly undesirable as tanks when placed side by side with any fighter class.</p>

[feldon30]

Sorry, you are a rogue, you are no longer allowed to tank. Tanking is being reduced to THE RIGHT WAY and THE WRONG WAY.

[Appollyon]

<p>Are you serious? You are complaining that you can no longer tank and think this is a nerf? You’re a DPS class not a Tank class, you don’t think its slightly over powered that what is currently on live allows some scouts to have higher DPS and better tanking position than some of the fighters and this patch is addressing this. It was broken before now it’s being fixed and before you go and say you don't tank better than some of the fighters take a look at brawlers for the most part they don’t do the DPS you can and your avoidance similar and rogues last time I checked wore chain where brawlers use leather. So you have the clear advantage with mitigation, similar avoidance (especially if you use shield) and a lot more DPS. As for the whole AE hate generation you need to understand that the tanks have now been made to be AE tanks or Single Target Tanks. Right now the single target tanks have issues with AE hate that makes tanking in the new TSO instances difficult. I am really tired of people complaining how they can't take as good as a fighter but when the fighters say they can't DPS as good as before the scouts get all up in arms about it. To me that’s really hypocritical. Now this may not be the case at the higest levels but at 55-60 my Monk does less damage has less mit and avoidance then my similar level and geared swashbuckler.</p>

[Faelgalad]

<p>Problem is,</p><p>Swash/Brig AA is full of Tank-Stuff <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I have tanked with my Troub when I mentor down. That's certainly more a curiosity.</p><p>But Swash/Brig Tanks are running on a similar way like Brawlers.</p><p>And....</p><p>there are even Raid-Mobs like Terrortantula or the Armor in MMIS, that are designed for Brawler/Rogue Tanks.</p><p>Btw, I want a T8 Terrortantula, the new Raidwiper *gg*</p>

[Appollyon]

<p><cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Problem is,</p><p>Swash/Brig AA is full of Tank-Stuff <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I have tanked with my Troub when I mentor down. That's certainly more a curiosity.</p><p>But Swash/Brig Tanks are running on a similar way like Brawlers.</p><p>And....</p><p>there are even Raid-Mobs like Terrortantula or the Armor in MMIS, that are designed for Brawler/Rogue Tanks.</p><p>Btw, I want a T8 Terrortantula, the new Raidwiper *gg*</p></blockquote><p>Right but it shouldnt be Bralwer/Rogue tanks it should just be brawlers. If you had the choice between a class with the same avoidance, higher dps and better mit vs one with lower dps and mit todo your tanking your going to pick the first one if its a true tank class or not. This choice shouldnt even exist. Now if this is whats intended then brawler dps should be put inline with a rogues so they are more balanced with eachother. I dont belive the later is the right answer to the problem.</p>

[Mentalep]

<p><cite></cite></p><blockquote><p>undesirable as tanks when placed side by side with any fighter class.</p></blockquote><p>I can appreciate where you're coming from, but read this last bit again.  Are you saying that it <strong>shouldn't </strong>be the case that fighters are preferred to rogues as tanks?</p>

[Hirofortis]

<p><cite>Igixnasii wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Currently rogues get the benefit of quality taunts, and excellent AE hate generation, and with the right hate management they can easily tank and hold aggro, while mitigating against much of the incoming damage and maintaining a high avoidance with a shield or open handed.</p><p>The patch going in the way it is will destroy the rogues ability to tank:</p><p>- The taunts, while increased a little bit are nowhere near what fighters get, and the recast timer on the sta line - encounter taunt remains 20 seconds</p><p>- New AE hate generation rules mean that rogue AE abilities will not generate hate to the area, making tanking encounters and multiple encounters a nightmare at best, and impossible at worst.</p><p>I enjoy using my swashie to tank right now and surprise people who have never had a rogue tank anything, but with the changes to fighters there will be no comparison and those rogues who are currently mercinaries and enjoying the practice will be losing much of their effectiveness and certainly undesirable as tanks when placed side by side with any fighter class.</p></blockquote><p>I am sorry, but if you want to tank, go make a tank.  If you want to DPS, play a DPS.  Nothing says you can't play tank, but your class was never meant to be a tank. It was given as an abilty to work in a pinch.  Sigh, some peeps need to get a clue.</p>

[forge32]

<p>Omg like we dont have enough going on with real tank class issues, we now need a thread for rogues being nerfed on tanking ability? news flash you are a dps class not a tank.</p>

[Trojenn]

<p>I can agree but I also agree to disagree with alot of replys to the OP.</p><p>Rogues are given several abilities to tank, first off being that our STA line gives us a reactive taunt and an Encounter Taunt. We can boost our Shield Effectiveness by 15% and boost our HP alot higher then any other Scout. Brigands have an edge over swashbucklers due to that they can Boost there Mitigation and also with the new Shadow line they can boost it even further.</p><p>Now I understand that Rogues are not classified as tanks but understand, ALOT of us are not trying to tank raid mobs and in TSO it probably won't happen for some time. But dam near every instance out there is tankable by a Rogue. The OP is correct in stating that it will be near impossible to tank any instance due to the changes with Hate. I am not asking and I am sure that the OP is not asking for Rogues to be given extreme tanking abilities or changes but just upgrading what we have to be inline with the changes coming into play.</p><p>Thats all, correct me if I am wrong OP></p>

[Appollyon]

<p><cite>Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can agree but I also agree to disagree with alot of replys to the OP.</p><p>Rogues are given several abilities to tank, first off being that our STA line gives us a reactive taunt and an Encounter Taunt. We can boost our Shield Effectiveness by 15% and boost our HP alot higher then any other Scout. Brigands have an edge over swashbucklers due to that they can Boost there Mitigation and also with the new Shadow line they can boost it even further.</p><p>Now I understand that Rogues are not classified as tanks but understand, ALOT of us are not trying to tank raid mobs and in TSO it probably won't happen for some time. But dam near every instance out there is tankable by a Rogue. The OP is correct in stating that it will be near impossible to tank any instance due to the changes with Hate. I am not asking and I am sure that the OP is not asking for Rogues to be given extreme tanking abilities or changes but just upgrading what we have to be inline with the changes coming into play.</p><p>Thats all, correct me if I am wrong OP></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: #888888;">Just because you’re not tanking raid mobs doesn’t make it ok, the fact that almost all the instances can be tanked by a rogue means something is broken. Right now brawlers can tank instances but its not easy and most groups don't let brawlers tank and some of the fighter classes rarely ever MT for raids. Why should you be a more desirable tank as a DPS class than a fighter class? </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: #888888;">When brawlers ask for more DPS, because we get out damaged by some of the plate tanks, scouts get mad and say how we are tanks and we don’t need a DPS boots. Why should you have the ability to tank as well as brawlers but brawlers aren't allowed to do as much damage? </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: #888888;">Not sure why a scout would be given taunts other than to save a group if the MT goes down or the rogue is the groups OT. The other aa's that increase survivability are in my opinion for soloing and not for making you a full group tank to run instances ect... </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: #888888;">As for the multi mob encounters its ridiculously hard for some classes to tank instances because of the AE and Single Target tank change. So it’s not just rogues with this problem a lot of fighters do.</span></p>

[Blaidd]

<p>Either way whether your for or against Rogues Tanking changes still need to be made.</p><p>Either SOE need to improve the abilities if they still want us to be able to tank or give us new AA abilities to replace them with. As it currently stands we have either a lot of below par abilities or even more wasted abilities.</p><p>I personally would like to see our tanking ability reduced to the same as the other scouts and given more choices on AA's (currently Wis is useless and Sta is headed that way with these changes).</p>

[DngrMou]

<p><cite>forge32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Omg like we dont have enough going on with real tank class issues, we now need a thread for rogues being nerfed on tanking ability? news flash you are a dps class not a tank.</p></blockquote><p>Rogues are DPS/Utility.  Part of that utility is the ability to tank.  And when we tank, we generally experience a reduction in DPS...which is as it should be.  I've seen similar arguments proferred up when Swashy's ranged abilities were nerfed.  The class was supposed to be melee dps, not ranged dps. Then they nerfed melee dps.  Now rogue's ability to tank is being removed.  The entire class is stuck in an ever shrinking box, where utility means "not doing anything that any other class can do", and DPS is kept lower than it should be because other scout classes would, (and generally do), cry a river of tears if they're out DPS'ed by a rogue.</p>

[Geothe]

<p>I agree that Rogues shouldnt be tanks.So I request that all the tank-AA junk that was added into the brigand TSO lines, as well as the Stamina in the Rogue tree be completely removed and replaced with AAs that match with what our roles actually should be.But you all know that will never happen either.</p>

[Timistoolman]

<p>I have read through most of the replys here, and I figured I would add some of my own "flavor" to the "soup".  I understand most of the tank changes, even though I am a conjy, but I do find it interesting that most people think that if you are "x" class you should only be able to do "x" job.  I spent many years in ffxi, and if you are familar with it, when ninja first came out it was meant to be a dps only class.  People then found out that using some of its abilities it could tank on par with our "plate tanks" but suffered the penalty that if you messed up you had "0" defense versus an actual tank.  What I would like to see is some sort of ability for the rogues to "tank" but have the penalties be severe enough that not everyone could do it, you would have to be quite good at what you do to pull it off.  Then again I play a conj who tanks with a pet in small groups so I am bias.  I just look at the players ability to pull off one job in another jobs "expertise" part of the fun of playing utility jobs.</p><p>Timis</p><p>Lucan D'Lere</p>

[Morrias]

<p>ROGUES ARE TANKS, obviously, why else would half of our AAs give abilities for tanking? (we also have a Defensive Stance..)</p><p>Honestly I dont care if we can't tank, but the option used to be there and now it isnt.. so it IS a nerf.. /shrugs</p>

[Raidyen]

<p>While it is true we are taking a hit in the tanking department, and we have way to many throw away AA's, and a Defensive stance that i don't beleive any rogue uses, even if they are tanking, i don't mind because all that said, i can still do my primary job of DPS and debuffing.  I am more concerned about the real tank in the group having the ability to keep me alive long enough so that i can do my job.</p>

[liveja]

<p>I'm a Swashy, & I don't think Rogues should have been given tanking abilities in the first place.</p><p>I would happily give up every ounce of tanking ability I have, in exchange for more DPS & even better debuffs.</p><p>Yes, I know my opinion will be unpopular. No, I don't care.</p>

[Junaru]

<p>I agree with the OP. Lets NERF THE SNOT out of Rogue defencive stance, make them take more damage in offencive stance, double their taunts and call if a fix.</p><p>I would LOVE to see the threads crying after that change went into place. Do people really think Fighters are happy with the changes?</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Lets NERF THE SNOT out of Rogue defencive stance</p></blockquote><p>I don't know how many times I've gotten halfway through an instance, & then realized I was doing it on Defense Stance, because I'd been soloing all day & simply forgot to change.</p><p>The really funny part is that not once has anyone noticed -- or if they did, they didn't comment -- & the whole group chuckled when I admitted my silliness.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Appollyon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Are you serious? You are complaining that you can no longer tank and think this is a nerf? You’re a DPS class not a Tank class, you don’t think its slightly over powered that what is currently on live allows some scouts to have higher DPS and better tanking position than some of the fighters and this patch is addressing this. It was broken before now it’s being fixed and before you go and say you don't tank better than some of the fighters take a look at brawlers for the most part they don’t do the DPS you can and your avoidance similar and rogues last time I checked wore chain where brawlers use leather. So you have the clear advantage with mitigation, similar avoidance (especially if you use shield) and a lot more DPS. </p><p><span style="color: #993366;">I have never seen a rogue with 85% avoidance and I'm sure that it isn't even possible.  Brawlers might wear leather but the mitigation difference turns out to be unimportant.  The only advantage rogues had was DPS.</span></p></blockquote>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Appollyon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Problem is,</p><p>Swash/Brig AA is full of Tank-Stuff <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I have tanked with my Troub when I mentor down. That's certainly more a curiosity.</p><p>But Swash/Brig Tanks are running on a similar way like Brawlers.</p><p>And....</p><p>there are even Raid-Mobs like Terrortantula or the Armor in MMIS, that are designed for Brawler/Rogue Tanks.</p><p>Btw, I want a T8 Terrortantula, the new Raidwiper *gg*</p></blockquote><p>Right but it shouldnt be Bralwer/Rogue tanks it should just be brawlers. If you had the choice between a class with the same avoidance, higher dps and better mit vs one with lower dps and mit todo your tanking your going to pick the first one if its a true tank class or not. This choice shouldnt even exist. Now if this is whats intended then brawler dps should be put inline with a rogues so they are more balanced with eachother. I dont belive the later is the right answer to the problem.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">I have never seen a rogue with similar avoidance to a good brawler.  Even my assassin can't get too close to my brawler in avoidance.</span></p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><span style="color: #993366;">Rogue tanking ability wasen't really nerfed at all.  Fighters all lost DPS but gained taunts.  Rogues don't get better taunts but they don't lose any DPS either.  You are the same at holding hate now as you were before, fighters just have a slightly larger advanatge at holding hate vs what they did before.</span></p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm a Swashy, & I don't think Rogues should have been given tanking abilities in the first place.</p><p>I would happily give up every ounce of tanking ability I have, in exchange for more DPS & even better debuffs.</p></blockquote><p>But then you are just an assassin or ranger with more debuffs.</p><p>Taking away the unique abilities of each class is how you end up with 12 classes everyone wants and 12 classes nobody needs.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm a Swashy, & I don't think Rogues should have been given tanking abilities in the first place.</p><p>I would happily give up every ounce of tanking ability I have, in exchange for more DPS & even better debuffs.</p></blockquote><p>But then you are just an assassin or ranger with more debuffs.</p><p>Taking away the unique abilities of each class is how you end up with 12 classes everyone wants and 12 classes nobody needs.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">IMO rogues are supposed to be aproximatly 1/3 debuffs, 1/3 DPS and 1/3 survivability.  However most rogues I see tend to be more 3/4 DPS, 1/4 debuffs.</span></p>

[feldon30]

OMG I saw an Inquisitor tanking a mob. NERF IT! OMG I saw a mythical Conjuror tanking Chelsith. NERF IT! Jeez people quit trying to take the fun out of the game. I don't know if people are jealous, envious, have no life, or if it really comes down to PvP balance screwing up the PvE game (as they promised it wouldn't do).

[Valentina]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>OMG I saw an Inquisitor tanking a mob. NERF IT! OMG I saw a mythical Conjuror tanking Chelsith. NERF IT! Jeez people quit trying to take the fun out of the game. I don't know if people are jealous, envious, have no life, or if it really comes down to PvP balance screwing up the PvE game (as they promised it wouldn't do).</blockquote><p>Don't you realize there is only one valid way to play the game and it is MOST DEFINITELY <insert poster's preferred playstyle here>?</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>Someone please explain to me WHY A SCOUT CLASS HAS A TAUNT IN THE FIRST PLACE! If it doesn't actually serve a purpose in aiding the scout's DPS, then why do they have a taunt? It's not suppose to be thier job to tank!</p>

[DngrMou]

<p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm a Swashy, & I don't think Rogues should have been given tanking abilities in the first place.</p><p>I would happily give up every ounce of tanking ability I have, in exchange for more DPS & even better debuffs.</p><p>Yes, I know my opinion will be unpopular. No, I don't care.</p></blockquote><p>The problem is we won't get more dps/utility in exchange.  In fact it appears we're losing utility, (hate transfer), entirely, in addition to our ability to tank...(if the OP is correct).  So far, I can't see any positive changes to the class as a result of this upcoming GU at all.</p>

[Kriptini]

<p><cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Problem is,</p><p>Swash/Brig AA is full of Tank-Stuff <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I have tanked with my Troub when I mentor down. That's certainly more a curiosity.</p><p>But Swash/Brig Tanks are running on a similar way like Brawlers.</p><p>And....</p><p>there are even Raid-Mobs like Terrortantula or the Armor in MMIS, that are designed for Brawler/Rogue Tanks.</p><p>Btw, I want a T8 Terrortantula, the new Raidwiper *gg*</p></blockquote><p>Actually, the first named in Tomb of the Mad Crusader requires a Rogue tank, or a Fighter that can keep aggro without doing ANYTHING. And since Pallys can't use the old Amends anymore, we better PRAY that Sony keeps the Rogue tanks in mind.</p>

[forge32]

<p><cite>Kriptini@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Problem is,</p><p>Swash/Brig AA is full of Tank-Stuff <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I have tanked with my Troub when I mentor down. That's certainly more a curiosity.</p><p>But Swash/Brig Tanks are running on a similar way like Brawlers.</p><p>And....</p><p>there are even Raid-Mobs like Terrortantula or the Armor in MMIS, that are designed for Brawler/Rogue Tanks.</p><p>Btw, I want a T8 Terrortantula, the new Raidwiper *gg*</p></blockquote><p>Actually, the first named in Tomb of the Mad Crusader requires a Rogue tank, or a Fighter that can keep aggro without doing ANYTHING. And since Pallys can't use the old Amends anymore, we better PRAY that Sony keeps the Rogue tanks in mind.</p></blockquote><p>I am a guard and i tank the first name in tomb all the time i dont see an issue with it that a rogue needs to tank it .If any tank is having problems tanking that mob  they better reroll.Require a rogue lol seriously you better be jokeing.</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm a Swashy, & I don't think Rogues should have been given tanking abilities in the first place.</p><p>I would happily give up every ounce of tanking ability I have, in exchange for more DPS & even better debuffs.</p></blockquote><p>But then you are just an assassin or ranger with more debuffs.</p><p>Taking away the unique abilities of each class is how you end up with 12 classes everyone wants and 12 classes nobody needs.</p></blockquote><p>There is nothing unique about tanking: 4 classes are supposedly intended to do it, & both Rogue classes can, as well.</p><p>I'd much rather have truly unique Swashy-flavored abilities, than some sort of "tanking" ability.</p>

[Luag]

<p>the "only tanks should tank" mentality is boring, I'm surprised people are still this [Removed for Content] from having rok zones rogue tanked, it's a viable choice, and so it is used.</p><p>get over it, I'm sure this will get addressed after the hammer the aggro for dummies playstyle into the player base after the fighter balance, then when they get around the scout balance scout tanking will get changed</p>

[Appollyon]

<p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm a Swashy, & I don't think Rogues should have been given tanking abilities in the first place.</p><p>I would happily give up every ounce of tanking ability I have, in exchange for more DPS & even better debuffs.</p></blockquote><p>But then you are just an assassin or ranger with more debuffs.</p><p>Taking away the unique abilities of each class is how you end up with 12 classes everyone wants and 12 classes nobody needs.</p></blockquote><p>There is nothing unique about tanking: 4 classes are supposedly intended to do it, & both Rogue classes can, as well.</p><p>I'd much rather have truly unique Swashy-flavored abilities, than some sort of "tanking" ability.</p></blockquote><p>You do know there are 6 tanking classes not 4 right.</p><p><cite>Luag wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the "only tanks should tank" mentality is boring, I'm surprised people are still this [Removed for Content] from having rok zones rogue tanked, it's a viable choice, and so it is used.</p><p>get over it, I'm sure this will get addressed after the hammer the aggro for dummies playstyle into the player base after the fighter balance, then when they get around the scout balance scout tanking will get changed</p></blockquote><p>Its not that only tanks should tank but rather when a group has to choose a tank the true tanks (all 6 of them) should be the first choice and its ok for rogues to have tanking abilities especially for use in an emergency. Rogues shouldnt beable to tank as well as the fighters plan and simple.</p>

[Terron]

<p>Rogues can and should be able to tank for groups.</p><p>But they should not be able to tank as well as fighters, and they can not.</p><p>My swashie has 2 taunts currently and that does not seem to be changing. All fighters have more. All fighters also have hate position abilities - at least Rescue.</p><p>Most if not all fighters also have special survival boosters, which rogues do not have.</p>

[Turb]

<p>As a brawler I have absolutely no issues at all with a swashie (or brig) tanking instances.   They've been given explicit tools by SOE to do this until now (STA line, and for swashies Hurricane)... imo those tools should be scaled up like tank abilities.    Noone's losing out by a swashie running an instance instead of another tank.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Someone please explain to me WHY A SCOUT CLASS HAS A TAUNT IN THE FIRST PLACE! If it doesn't actually serve a purpose in aiding the scout's DPS, then why do they have a taunt? It's not suppose to be thier job to tank!</p></blockquote><p>You're kidding, right?</p>

[Trojenn]

<p><cite>Snafu@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As a brawler I have absolutely no issues at all with a swashie (or brig) tanking instances.   They've been given explicit tools by SOE to do this until now (STA line, and for swashies Hurricane)... imo those tools should be scaled up like tank abilities.    Noone's losing out by a swashie running an instance instead of another tank.</p></blockquote><p>Thank you snafu, atleast some tanks get idea of why some of use are upset lol.  I agree were not tanks but when given the tools to tank why not use them, well, to tank. SoE gave them to us for a reason. Were not asking to be able to tank a raid or to be given the equivalent of what a Tank has but atleast boost us up a scale.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Someone please explain to me WHY A SCOUT CLASS HAS A TAUNT IN THE FIRST PLACE! If it doesn't actually serve a purpose in aiding the scout's DPS, then why do they have a taunt? It's not suppose to be thier job to tank!</p></blockquote><p>You're kidding, right?</p></blockquote><p>No, I'm not kidding. I want an official response why they were given an ability that is well outside of thier archetype's design.</p>

[DMIstar]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Someone please explain to me WHY A SCOUT CLASS HAS A TAUNT IN THE FIRST PLACE! If it doesn't actually serve a purpose in aiding the scout's DPS, then why do they have a taunt? It's not suppose to be thier job to tank!</p></blockquote><p>You're kidding, right?</p></blockquote><p>This topic is rediculous ... What do we need to do now Fix Heoric Content that a Scout in legendary gear must be able to tank it ?</p><p>Hell if a scout can tank all group content, [Removed for Content] is the point of the fighter classes.  Cause litteraly the game would have to be dumbafied to even support this.</p><p>The only reasonings that scouts should be able to tank this is due to higher lvl gear overpowering the content.</p><p>scouts being sub lvl tanks ... is the same as asking for fighters/casters being sub lvl healers.. as said whats the difference its not going to harm anything ..</p>

[Luag]

<p><cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Someone please explain to me WHY A SCOUT CLASS HAS A TAUNT IN THE FIRST PLACE! If it doesn't actually serve a purpose in aiding the scout's DPS, then why do they have a taunt? It's not suppose to be thier job to tank!</p></blockquote><p>You're kidding, right?</p></blockquote><p>This topic is rediculous ... What do we need to do now Fix Heoric Content that a Scout in legendary gear must be able to tank it ?</p><p>Hell if a scout can tank all group content, [Removed for Content] is the point of the fighter classes.  Cause litteraly the game would have to be dumbafied to even support this.</p><p>The only reasonings that scouts should be able to tank this is due to higher lvl gear overpowering the content.</p><p>scouts being sub lvl tanks ... is the same as asking for fighters/casters being sub lvl healers.. as said whats the difference its not going to harm anything ..</p></blockquote><p>the way things work you'll probably get a responce too, should they also justify to you why a dirge has a rez? or why a brusier gets a back attack? perhaps the wardens evac? anything else?</p><p>I know whining is actually a viable way of enhancing your class in this game, but it gets old, rogues are the chain tank, somehing of a tank/dps hybrid, even using those terms skews the thinking of classes, I miss the SWG skill point system, where you did what ever you got xp in up to the limit of total points. simplification and apealing to the LCD seems to be the order of the day.</p><p>redname for cusa inc I'm sure (and to scold me no doubt)</p>

[Katanalla]

<p>If brawlers are there to tank why do they have FD? If pallies are tanks why do they have heals? If furies are healers why do they have a lot of spells to do good dps?</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If brawlers are there to tank why do they have FD? If pallies are tanks why do they have heals? If furies are healers why do they have a lot of spells to do good dps?</p></blockquote><p>1. Monk had Feign Death in EQlive, and the tradition carries over.</p><p>2. Paladins were Half-warrior Half-Cleric in EQlive, and the tradition carries over.</p><p>3. Druids always had a lot of damage and kiting spells in EQlive, and the tradition carries over.</p><p>Is it traditional for rogues to tank? They certainly never did in EQlive. Even as a monk without a taunt skill, we did good enough to get by. Rogues never actually tanked in EQlive. They had to be behind the mob just to use the backstab skill.</p><p>I don't fault Dirges for singing so badly that they literally wake the dead, but I do fault rogues for taking away from the fighter archetype with skills they were never ment to have in the first place, and with there being no rhyme or reason why they do.</p>

[Gisallo]

<p><cite>Canlyn@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Either way whether your for or against Rogues Tanking changes still need to be made.</p><p>Either SOE need to improve the abilities if they still want us to be able to tank or give us new AA abilities to replace them with. As it currently stands we have either a lot of below par abilities or even more wasted abilities.</p><p>I personally would like to see our tanking ability reduced to the same as the other scouts and given more choices on AA's (currently Wis is useless and Sta is headed that way with these changes).</p></blockquote><p><span ><p>heh heh.  If I said something similar about losing 50% of the double attack on my zerker, thus losing dps I had while in "shield mode" you'd be yelling "but you are a tank.  Heck the Warriors have an entire AA line that only makes sense on a PvP server. </p><p>The purpose of those abilities was so that ina pinch when the tank goes down in a group you guys could step in until he got back up.  It got to the point however that Rouges could tank arguably as well as Brawlers.  You are still going to have those lines but now those line will work appropriately.  They will allow you to keep standing and keep the mobs attention long enough for a tank to get back on his feet, instead of allowing you to bonafidely tank a Pre-TSO instance.  Ever class has wasted or stupid AA lines the wisdom line largely for warriors and half of every classes EoF tree.  This situation though has existed for sometime and these changes have nothing to do with it.</p></span></p>

[DMIstar]

<p>"Why Does Pallies Have Heals"</p><p>If you cant answer this.. you should never touch anything D&D related again.. You might as well be asking me ...  Why Do assasins have poisons ?!?</p><p>Can a Pally replace a healer for a deep forge (Deepforge only needs one healer period.) ehh.. No</p><p>If dumb assumptions and comments are going to be the things to come up, you might as well ask the devs to make 1 Class that does everything for you. at a click of a button.</p>

[Katanalla]

<p>Yea I know just making this thread even more random <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> Just ask anyone from the swashbuckler world channel.</p>

[Gisallo]

<p><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If brawlers are there to tank why do they have FD? If pallies are tanks why do they have heals? If furies are healers why do they have a lot of spells to do good dps?</p></blockquote><p>BEcause of lore.  Monks have feign death because they have per the lore complete control of their bodies.  Pallies are Holy Warriors, (operative word holy) and so can do some stuff, furies are the embodiment of nature thus live giving and life taking.  Swashbucklers and Brigands are Rouges.  Rogues swagger, strike from the shadows, pick your pocket and after they stab you in the back run for their lives. </p><p>Quotes of description of the classes by SOE</p><p><span >"Using cunning and skill, Swashbucklers inflict devastating attacks against foes before slipping into the shadows.  Masters of misdirection, Swashbucklers often avoid the blame for their potent strikes."</span></p><p>"<span >Brigands are crafty rogues who employ intimidation and force to subdue their enemies.  The Brigand maintains an element of unpredictability to arouse discomfort, fear, and confusion in an opponent.  Strikes from a Brigand will often leave a foe crippled and vulnerable to further attacks."</span></p><p>So both are saying we strike fast, strike hard and then confuse and bail.  Nothing about attracting their enemies attention, or as said under teh zerker "<span >unleashing their devastating rage upon the enemy while keeping unwanted attention away from their allies.</span></p><p>They are finally firmly defining the rolls of the classes.  Is everyone going to like it no?  But it is going to cause people to make a clear cut choice finally about what character they chose.  If you want to tank you will pick a tank.  You want to dps you will pick a dps class.  Problem solved.</p>

[Gisallo]

<p>delete</p>

[Gisallo]

<p>delete</p>

[forge32]

<p><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If brawlers are there to tank why do they have FD? If pallies are tanks why do they have heals? If furies are healers why do they have a lot of spells to do good dps?</p></blockquote><p>BEcause of lore.  Monks have feign death because they have per the lore complete control of their bodies.  Pallies are Holy Warriors, (operative word holy) and so can do some stuff, furies are the embodiment of nature thus live giving and life taking.  Swashbucklers and Brigands are Rouges.  Rogues swagger, strike from the shadows, pick your pocket and after they stab you in the back run for their lives. </p><p>Quotes of description of the classes by SOE</p><p><span>"Using cunning and skill, Swashbucklers inflict devastating attacks against foes before slipping into the shadows.  Masters of misdirection, Swashbucklers often avoid the blame for their potent strikes."</span></p><p>"<span>Brigands are crafty rogues who employ intimidation and force to subdue their enemies.  The Brigand maintains an element of unpredictability to arouse discomfort, fear, and confusion in an opponent.  Strikes from a Brigand will often leave a foe crippled and vulnerable to further attacks."</span></p><p>So both are saying we <span style="text-decoration: underline;">strike fast, strike hard</span> and then confuse and bail.  Nothing about attracting their enemies attention, or as said under teh zerker "<span>unleashing their devastating rage upon the enemy while keeping unwanted attention away from their allies.</span></p><p>They are finally firmly defining the rolls of the classes.  Is everyone going to like it no?  But it is going to cause people to make a clear cut choice finally about what character they chose.  If you want to tank you will pick a tank.  You want to dps you will pick a dps class.  Problem solved.</p></blockquote><p>Strike fast !Strike hard ! NO MERCY SIR!  Carefull danielsun.</p>

[DngrMou]

<p><cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Someone please explain to me WHY A SCOUT CLASS HAS A TAUNT IN THE FIRST PLACE! If it doesn't actually serve a purpose in aiding the scout's DPS, then why do they have a taunt? It's not suppose to be thier job to tank!</p></blockquote><p>You're kidding, right?</p></blockquote><p>This topic is rediculous ... What do we need to do now Fix Heoric Content that a Scout in legendary gear must be able to tank it ?</p><p>Hell if a scout can tank all group content, [Removed for Content] is the point of the fighter classes.  Cause litteraly the game would have to be dumbafied to even support this.</p><p>The only reasonings that scouts should be able to tank this is due to higher lvl gear overpowering the content.</p><p>scouts being sub lvl tanks ... is the same as asking for fighters/casters being sub lvl healers.. as said whats the difference its not going to harm anything ..</p></blockquote><p>Yes, this topic IS ridiculous.  Rogues can tank....this is hardly a secret, or news to anyone.  No one has asked that anything be 'fixed' to make it possible for us to tank every instance.  No rogues have asked that we be dragged into the middle of this fighter revamp either.  Now that we have been dragged, kicking and screaming into the mess that is Fighter Rebalancing, we'd all like to come out of this with our existing abilities intact.</p>

[Kaja]

<p>Brigands and to a lesser degree Swashy make superb tanks for heroic content.  this is a fact of life ever since a certain Dev was determined to make RogUes ( for everyone spelling it like make up, the U goes after the G), into tanks via AA's.</p><p>Brigands single target taunt is also a debuff, for the monk that keeps asking and demanding a reply.</p><p>With my Brigand, in a total tank spec wearing my FABLED RAID DROPPED scout tank gear, solo 13k+ hps 55% miti, 55% avoid.</p><p>i have been in a MT grp and been 18k hps 66% miti, and over 70% avoid as a Brigand.</p><p>I get a single target taunt i can enhance in 2 aa trees (kos,eof). i get a def stance i can enhance, giving me increased MITI and parry / def.</p><p>i get a rescue type ability called ruse, 1min recast upto 5-6 hate positions with aa's and hate increase of 5-6k (actual damage not just hate) when it triggers. who needs Rescue lol.</p><p>Brigands also get the ability every 1 min to throw on another grp member a deaggro, when they get hit it intercedes 50% of damage drops them 1 hate position on every mob in the linked grp and 1300 hate gone too, per hit ..3hits on trigger. so if there are 5 mobs linked and wizzy ganks aggro, throw on appeal for mercy and 3 hits later wizzy is down 3 hate positions and 3900 hate, and the mobs are back on the Brigand.</p><p>we get via Aa a shield boost, Hp boost (can get +13% hps from kos tank tree line ), another shield effectivness boost, a reactive taunt proc, so when Brigand is hit it procs hate on targets hitting the Brigand. like holding the line.</p><p>As a brigand i have tanked every single ( Heroic )instance in game apart from 2 and thats b/cos i have quit playing eq2 otherwise they would have been done as well. i have done every zone with less than a full group, i have done every zone (that i have done) with a single healer. i have not needed any sort of hate buffer, or external deaggros on the grp to maintain aggro lock. and only on 2-3 of the zones have i actually needed to swap my AA's from total dps, to total tank to be able to clear a zone.</p><p>If Aeralik makes no changes to the Tank skills + hate gen of a Brigand, Brigands are going to become the number 1 heroic tank sans changes, cos nothing and i mean nothing can pump out hate gen like a Brigand, certainly none of the 6 current tank class's can. on grp mobs maybe but a brigand has a fair number of tricks for keeping aggro locked down even on mulit mob fights.</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>"<span>Brigands are crafty rogues who employ intimidation and force to subdue their enemies.  The Brigand maintains an element of unpredictability to <strong>arouse discomfort, fear, and confusion in an opponent</strong>.</span></p></blockquote><p>If that's not a taunt, then I don't know what is?</p><p>My general response again to this thread is STOP trying to remove distinctive characteristics of different classes. The ability of a swashie or brigand to peel off a mob from the tank and keep it busy for a while is crucial to certain situations and I really don't have a problem with it.</p><p>I wonder if any of you people saying that each class should be dumbed down to either TANK, DPS, or HEAL actually raid or group and know what goes on in these situations.</p><p>People seem to think that they should just remove abilities we've had for 3 years and that there will be no ramifications. Uniqueness makes characters fun to play. If Brigand/Swashbuckler were so overpowered, then that's all people would be rolling. Yet I see people rolling tons of assassins (a truly OP class), SKs (because this is The Shadowknight Odyssey -- didn't you know?), and Dirges/Troubies (because they have a guaranteed raid slot unless they really suck), and those classes are not scheduled to get nerfed afaik.</p><p>People got mad about Necros and Conjys tanking content, so they got nerf, nerf, nerfed. Now how many people are rolling new ones? None. The people who want to play these classes rolled illusionists or coercers which are full of win.</p><p>Are people really that selfish/jealous that they cannot allow other players to have fun?</p><p>To those people who lose sleep at night because some other class might have an ability you lack, GET A LIFE.</p>

[Illine]

<p><cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If brawlers are there to tank why do they have FD? If pallies are tanks why do they have heals? If furies are healers why do they have a lot of spells to do good dps?</p></blockquote><p>BEcause of lore.  Monks have feign death because they have per the lore complete control of their bodies.  Pallies are Holy Warriors, (operative word holy) and so can do some stuff, furies are the embodiment of nature thus live giving and life taking.  Swashbucklers and Brigands are Rouges.  Rogues swagger, strike from the shadows, pick your pocket and after they stab you in the back run for their lives. </p><p>Quotes of description of the classes by SOE</p><p><span>"Using cunning and skill, Swashbucklers inflict devastating attacks against foes before slipping into the shadows.  Masters of misdirection, Swashbucklers often avoid the blame for their potent strikes."</span></p><p>"<span>Brigands are crafty rogues who employ intimidation and force to subdue their enemies.  The Brigand maintains an element of unpredictability to arouse discomfort, fear, and confusion in an opponent.  Strikes from a Brigand will often leave a foe crippled and vulnerable to further attacks."</span></p></blockquote><p>from lore rogues are vast. They can be duellists, thugs, thiefs, accrobats, charmers, pirates they are fighters who like to fight with fast weapons and close to no armor ... the brigand is more the thug type while the swash is more the duelist/charming guy.</p><p>unlike predators, they many skills. Predators are killers. since they kill fast they don't need all the protection. Rogues on the opposite are jack of many trades. They could dps, debuff and tank. If they only strike from shadows, why do they have some attacks that have to be done in front of the mob?</p><p>they can't tank the hardest mobs but rogues should be able to tank for me.</p>

[Illine]

<p><cite>Igixnasii wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Currently rogues get the benefit of quality taunts, and excellent AE hate generation, and with the right hate management they can easily tank and hold aggro, while mitigating against much of the incoming damage and maintaining a high avoidance with a shield or open handed.</p><p>The patch going in the way it is will destroy the rogues ability to tank:</p><p>- The taunts, while increased a little bit are nowhere near what fighters get, and the recast timer on the sta line - encounter taunt remains 20 seconds</p><p>- New AE hate generation rules mean that rogue AE abilities will not generate hate to the area, making tanking encounters and multiple encounters a nightmare at best, and impossible at worst.</p><p>I enjoy using my swashie to tank right now and surprise people who have never had a rogue tank anything, but with the changes to fighters there will be no comparison and those rogues who are currently mercinaries and enjoying the practice will be losing much of their effectiveness and certainly undesirable as tanks when placed side by side with any fighter class.</p></blockquote><p>it doesn't say you won't be able to tank, it just says you'll have big troubles tanking encounters.</p><p>If you see a rogue tank as a duelist, it makes sense, duelists are great agaisnt one opponent, but they start having many enemies, they start having troubles. You can't parry as easilly 5 enemies as one.</p><p>so if you offtank, you'll only be able to take down one mob at a time.</p><p>I think it's a nice change. not overpowered, but since swash are scouts, they shouldn't be able to tank as well as fighters. that's all. like furies, even if they can do great dps, they shouldn't be able to dps as much as a wiz. or a palouf shouldn't be able to heal as well as a pure healer.</p>

[Junaru]

<p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No rogues have asked that we be dragged into the middle of this fighter revamp either. </p></blockquote><p>Really? Isn't that exacly what the OP was asking for? The whole reason for this thread is cause a Rogue thought it was unfair that Fighters are getting revamped to tank and Rogues weren't.</p>

[DngrMou]

<p><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No rogues have asked that we be dragged into the middle of this fighter revamp either. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>Really? Isn't that exacly what the OP was asking for?</strong></span> The whole reason for this thread is cause a Rogue thought it was unfair that Fighters are getting revamped to tank and Rogues weren't.</p></blockquote><p>No that's not what the OP was asking for.  Let's start with the title of this thread:</p><p><strong>Rogue tanking ability becoming an afterthought?</strong></p><p>Hmm...no hint there that he's asking for something new/better.  So lets take a look at some of the verbage in his post:</p><p><strong><span >The patch going in the way it is will destroy the rogues ability to tank:</span></strong></p><p>Seems to me he's concerned about losing abilities the class already has.  Again, Scouts did not ASK to be included in this mess.  These changes are being forced on us...and it appears these changes will have a negative impact on the class.</p>

[Junaru]

<p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No rogues have asked that we be dragged into the middle of this fighter revamp either. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>Really? Isn't that exacly what the OP was asking for?</strong></span> The whole reason for this thread is cause a Rogue thought it was unfair that Fighters are getting revamped to tank and Rogues weren't.</p></blockquote><p>No that's not what the OP was asking for.  Let's start with the title of this thread:</p><p><strong>Rogue tanking ability becoming an afterthought?</strong></p><p>Hmm...no hint there that he's asking for something new/better.  So lets take a look at some of the verbage in his post:</p><p><strong><span>The patch going in the way it is will destroy the rogues ability to tank:</span></strong></p><p>Seems to me he's concerned about losing abilities the class already has.  Again, Scouts did not ASK to be included in this mess.  These changes are being forced on us...and it appears these changes will have a negative impact on the class.</p></blockquote><p>Rogues are "losing" anything. If a Fighter does 4000hate and 1500DPS and a Rogue does 4000DPS and 1500hate they are the same.</p><p>If you didn't lose DPS, taunts, avoidance or mitigation how can you say that ANYTHING has changed for tanking as a Rogue. The fact is the OP thinks Fighters are getting something handed to them on a silver plater and didn't want to miss out.</p>

[Terron]

<p><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If a Fighter does 4000hate and 1500DPS and a Rogue does 4000DPS and 1500hate they are the same.</p></blockquote><p>No the rogue is ahead, because DPS reduces the mobs health as well as attracting its attention.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If brawlers are there to tank why do they have FD? If pallies are tanks why do they have heals? If furies are healers why do they have a lot of spells to do good dps?</p></blockquote><p>While there are some lore justifications, overall, what you see is that one, maybe 2 class from a different archtype will have an ability normally associated with another archtype. For example, paladins, dirges and necros can all rez, as can all healers. All scouts can evac, as can furies and wardens. The point is more to provide a bit more class diversity than to conform to any lore, although it happens that the lore sometimes coincides with class abilities. However, even if there weren't a paladin class, there would still be a fighter class with some a rez and some healing ability.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>so plate tanks have lost some of their diversity to be allowed to manage aggro and survivability better. rogues now want to be as and more diverse as they were before, why am i not surprised...</p><p>all i'm seeing is whining, if you want to tank then roll a real tank. no matter how much you may want it the truth is everyone wanting to be able to do a little bit of everything is hurting this game more than it is helping it. when i see brigands "offtanking for me" i can't help but laugh when they get splattered. you're not doing me any favors by eating up shaman wards or sucking up spot heals just so you can have a mob to yourself, if you want to tank instances, who said you still can't? it never should have been as easy or easier than it was as a plate tank, but i somehow doubt a rogue would see the problem in that.</p>

[Katanalla]

<p>I don't even know why some rogues even want to tank, it sucks. Although there are times where in pugs.... the 'tank' will have like 11k solo hp, 4.5k mit and some ungodly low avoidance.</p>

[Geothe]

<p>I'm a rogue (Brig).I dont want to tank.I absolutely hate that such a large amount of our AAs are an attempt to toss us into a tanking role.</p><p>But, SoE sure as heck isn't going to remove those tanking AAs and replace them with more appropriate AAs, and if they aren't going to do that, they may as well make them fall more inline with the current "tanking changes" they are trying to push through now.</p>

[Kaja]

<p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>so plate tanks have lost some of their diversity to be allowed to manage aggro and survivability better. rogues now want to be as and more diverse as they were before, why am i not surprised...</p><p>all i'm seeing is whining, if you want to tank then roll a real tank. no matter how much you may want it the truth is everyone wanting to be able to do a little bit of everything is hurting this game more than it is helping it. when i see brigands "offtanking for me" i can't help but laugh when they get splattered. you're not doing me any favors by eating up shaman wards or sucking up spot heals just so you can have a mob to yourself, if you want to tank instances, who said you still can't? it never should have been as easy or easier than it was as a plate tank, but i somehow doubt a rogue would see the problem in that.</p></blockquote><p>learn to read.</p><p>Rogues get given tank skills, get given tank aa tree's + stand alone Aa's. diverse as they were before? we debuff+dps at the same time, outside a raid we can solo better than most. i have not seen any rogue asking for more, what i have seen is rogues asking for all the tank stuff we get given -*- UNWANTED -*- as in no rogue ever asked for tank tree's or tank aa abilitys or tank gear. or def and parry on our set gear, SoE, did this all by themselves, well if they are reworking how this stuff works for the "pure" class's they need to rework it for every other class they gave similar abilitys to, this again is SOE's responsibility, if your reworking aggro / hate / tanking, then it ALL needs to be reworked not just parts of it, as i have already posted, if they do not change it, then Brigand > tanks in heroic zones. its that simple.</p><p>As for your asine comments about if you want to tank roll a tank, i played a guardian from launch till eof, i was a raid MT for the whole duration of that time, i eventually shelved my guardian as i no longer wanted to raid MT, and when it came to any content outside raiding, my Brigand could tank better, hold aggro better, dps better, bring more to the group, and took less damage than my full fabled full mastered retired Guardian, and this was before all the stupid changes to the game. So i ditched my decked out guard for a Brigand as it was more fun and gave my grps more flexability in there make up playing a Brigand to tank over a Guardian.</p><p>Brigands can tank any heroic zone / content better than any of the current tanks, i have played them all and nothing comes close to what a Brigand can do.</p><p>And its a good job i dont play no more, b/cos a Guard with Dirge+Coercer+moderate+trak shield couldnt keep aggro off me if i wanted it, nor could a Paladin with Dirge+amend(on me)+Coercer either. Brigands are going to be instant death class's now in raids, lol Aeralik you couldnt kill them by giving them the worst aa's, self buffs, deaggro skills, mythical, so instead your going on the oblique attack angle, play one any where near its limit in a raid and die instanly from aggro!! awesome plan.</p><p>For the poster saying why would you tank? why wouldnt you unless your playing with the very cream of the crop playerwise, its simply easier to tank yourself than waste time with some tank that cannot hold aggro off you, and crys non stop, healers moaning etc etc, right from the get go if everyone knows your tanking its easy life, mobs die quicker healers have to heal less and you dont have to sit about waiting for a Dirge/Coercer/Transfer any combination depending on which "Tank" you usually take along.</p><p>The last time i was invited to a group, there was a Shadowknight and a Zerker in it, rather than waste time trying to hold aggro off me, both knew they had 0 % chance of it, they both simply suggested before we even zoned into the Tso Instance, that i tank it on my Brigand. i was a a bit peeved, as tanking is more work than just following about killing stuff, but i did it, we cleared the zone in a record time, no wipes, everyone left with there shards+updates and was happy.</p><p>If Brigands do not get Significant assistance from the Dev team on there Hate gen, there a class which will spend probably 50% of every fight doing nothing, cos if they do they will simply die from peeling aggro.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p>Getting away from the debate over whether they SHOULD tank or not, rogue tanking was an afterthought before and it is an afterthought now. Nothing's changed.</p><p>Going back to the OP's post there were two main points.</p><p>*Taunt increases weren't as much as fighters. <strong>True ... but rogues didn't take a DPS hit, so do they need the larger taunts?</strong></p><p>*New AE hate generation rules. <strong>I don't think the changes mean what you think they mean. And if they do, well, since the change hits everyone's hate generation the same, if you weren't having a problem before you shouldn't now. If your AoE abilities hit each mob, they still generate hate with each mob. </strong></p><p>I'm not sure how Brigands can be the best heroic instance tanks, particularly given the quantity of multiple mob fights and places where fighting multiple encounters makes it quicker, and places where avoidance doesn't so much matter as having lots of HPs does, but obviously all the Brigands and healers I've ever played the game with just suck and some chick that doesn't even play the game anymore is teh boss.</p>

[Kaja]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Getting away from the debate over whether they SHOULD tank or not, rogue tanking was an afterthought before and it is an afterthought now. Nothing's changed.</p><p>Going back to the OP's post there were two main points.</p><p>*Taunt increases weren't as much as fighters. <strong>True ... but rogues didn't take a DPS hit, so do they need the larger taunts?</strong></p><p>*New AE hate generation rules. <strong>I don't think the changes mean what you think they mean. And if they do, well, since the change hits everyone's hate generation the same, if you weren't having a problem before you shouldn't now. If your AoE abilities hit each mob, they still generate hate with each mob. </strong></p><p>I'm not sure how Brigands can be the best heroic instance tanks, particularly given the quantity of multiple mob fights and places where fighting multiple encounters makes it quicker, and places where avoidance doesn't so much matter as having lots of HPs does, but obviously all the Brigands and healers I've ever played the game with just suck and some chick that doesn't even play the game anymore is teh boss.</p></blockquote><p>whos a chick? lol</p><p>how is a Brigand going to be the best instance tank? they will simply be able to produce so much more hate than any tank sans changes that having one in a group means that they are going to tank, whether the tank wants to let them or not.</p><p>ive played eq2 since launch and recently quit less than a month ago if you must know.</p><p>they are changing tanks, they are not changing Brigands, a tank spec Brig with tank gear on is going to own a tank in the face for aggro control after these changes if nothing gets changed.</p><p>with my Brigand i solo tanked re2 Brig/Troub/Conjy/ Wiz/Fury and cleared it, that was back in mid RoK when they added that zone, no dirge, no mezzer, no cleric, no shamen. I have cleared upto the boss in lower corridors of guk with Brig+Temp+fury+Wiz, thats right 4 people we left the zone without trying the boss as it was to late for us. regardless of what you have grouped with in the past, that has no bearing on the facts of the matter at hand.</p><p>With the current changes if nothing is done Brigands will be better for instances than any tank, in raids they will die if they actually try to dps/debuff.</p><p>Current tanks are putting up 4-6k on test for hate+dps combined with buffers, i can hit 7-8k solo when im soloing chelsith/coa/kc/seb/chard thats before you factor in the extra hate generated from my debuffs which are on 50% of my ca's, in a group with a dirge+chanter i can easily hit 14k+ on named or trash fights add in my debuff hate your looking at 18-20k hate per second compared to mr tanks 4-6k hate per second.</p><p>Brigands are going to suffer like no other if the Devs do not fix there abilitys, and tanks wont be taking Brigands in groups in heroic zones, cos no one will group with someone who is tanking for them 99.9% of the time. and thats whats on the cards. after this goes live Brigands will be either Tanking there own groups or sitting about solo. raids = dead if try dpsing.</p>

[DMIstar]

<p><cite>Kaja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>so plate tanks have lost some of their diversity to be allowed to manage aggro and survivability better. rogues now want to be as and more diverse as they were before, why am i not surprised...</p><p>all i'm seeing is whining, if you want to tank then roll a real tank. no matter how much you may want it the truth is everyone wanting to be able to do a little bit of everything is hurting this game more than it is helping it. when i see brigands "offtanking for me" i can't help but laugh when they get splattered. you're not doing me any favors by eating up shaman wards or sucking up spot heals just so you can have a mob to yourself, if you want to tank instances, who said you still can't? it never should have been as easy or easier than it was as a plate tank, but i somehow doubt a rogue would see the problem in that.</p></blockquote><p>learn to read.</p><p>Rogues get given tank skills, get given tank aa tree's + stand alone Aa's. diverse as they were before? we debuff+dps at the same time, outside a raid we can solo better than most. i have not seen any rogue asking for more, what i have seen is rogues asking for all the tank stuff we get given -*- UNWANTED -*- as in no rogue ever asked for tank tree's or tank aa abilitys or tank gear. or def and parry on our set gear, SoE, did this all by themselves, well if they are reworking how this stuff works for the "pure" class's they need to rework it for every other class they gave similar abilitys to, this again is SOE's responsibility, if your reworking aggro / hate / tanking, then it ALL needs to be reworked not just parts of it, as i have already posted, if they do not change it, then Brigand > tanks in heroic zones. its that simple.</p><p>As for your asine comments about if you want to tank roll a tank, i played a guardian from launch till eof, i was a raid MT for the whole duration of that time, i eventually shelved my guardian as i no longer wanted to raid MT, and when it came to any content outside raiding, my Brigand could tank better, hold aggro better, dps better, bring more to the group, and took less damage than my full fabled full mastered retired Guardian, and this was before all the stupid changes to the game. So i ditched my decked out guard for a Brigand as it was more fun and gave my grps more flexability in there make up playing a Brigand to tank over a Guardian.</p><p>Brigands can tank any heroic zone / content better than any of the current tanks, i have played them all and nothing comes close to what a Brigand can do.</p><p>And its a good job i dont play no more, b/cos a Guard with Dirge+Coercer+moderate+trak shield couldnt keep aggro off me if i wanted it, nor could a Paladin with Dirge+amend(on me)+Coercer either. Brigands are going to be instant death class's now in raids, lol Aeralik you couldnt kill them by giving them the worst aa's, self buffs, deaggro skills, mythical, so instead your going on the oblique attack angle, play one any where near its limit in a raid and die instanly from aggro!! awesome plan.</p><p>For the poster saying why would you tank? why wouldnt you unless your playing with the very cream of the crop playerwise, its simply easier to tank yourself than waste time with some tank that cannot hold aggro off you, and crys non stop, healers moaning etc etc, right from the get go if everyone knows your tanking its easy life, mobs die quicker healers have to heal less and you dont have to sit about waiting for a Dirge/Coercer/Transfer any combination depending on which "Tank" you usually take along.</p><p>The last time i was invited to a group, there was a Shadowknight and a Zerker in it, rather than waste time trying to hold aggro off me, both knew they had 0 % chance of it, they both simply suggested before we even zoned into the Tso Instance, that i tank it on my Brigand. i was a a bit peeved, as tanking is more work than just following about killing stuff, but i did it, we cleared the zone in a record time, no wipes, everyone left with there shards+updates and was happy.</p><p>If Brigands do not get Significant assistance from the Dev team on there Hate gen, there a class which will spend probably 50% of every fight doing nothing, cos if they do they will simply die from peeling aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Firstly Assasins get Defense Abilities for Two Reasons.. 1. They are not supposed to be the upkeep nightmare that the pure casters are.. 2. Not every single AA ability they get is supposed to be a direct DPS gain, Other classes have abilities that spread off to other things, same goes for assasins. Welcome to the real world. Doesnt mean you get a defense ability that directly means your some kind of tank ..</p><p>Secondly Any DPSer that can Die immediatly should be able to obtain Aggro at a drop of a hat, its overpowered if a DPSer can just sit there and go all out with no consequences.. Its learning how to play the class and actually know what is going to give you aggro or not.. if the button is there, it doesnt necessarily mean its supposed to be pressed 100% of the time .. People are supposed to think on what they need to cast ... Fighters should not be beating you on Hate list at your max DPS parse.. Now if the zerker/guard/SK are not holding aggro to a fraction of what you do.. Its not the class its the players not knowing how to play.. period.</p>

[Kaja]

<p><cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kaja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>so plate tanks have lost some of their diversity to be allowed to manage aggro and survivability better. rogues now want to be as and more diverse as they were before, why am i not surprised...</p><p>all i'm seeing is whining, if you want to tank then roll a real tank. no matter how much you may want it the truth is everyone wanting to be able to do a little bit of everything is hurting this game more than it is helping it. when i see brigands "offtanking for me" i can't help but laugh when they get splattered. you're not doing me any favors by eating up shaman wards or sucking up spot heals just so you can have a mob to yourself, if you want to tank instances, who said you still can't? it never should have been as easy or easier than it was as a plate tank, but i somehow doubt a rogue would see the problem in that.</p></blockquote><p>learn to read.</p><p>Rogues get given tank skills, get given tank aa tree's + stand alone Aa's. diverse as they were before? we debuff+dps at the same time, outside a raid we can solo better than most. i have not seen any rogue asking for more, what i have seen is rogues asking for all the tank stuff we get given -*- UNWANTED -*- as in no rogue ever asked for tank tree's or tank aa abilitys or tank gear. or def and parry on our set gear, SoE, did this all by themselves, well if they are reworking how this stuff works for the "pure" class's they need to rework it for every other class they gave similar abilitys to, this again is SOE's responsibility, if your reworking aggro / hate / tanking, then it ALL needs to be reworked not just parts of it, as i have already posted, if they do not change it, then Brigand > tanks in heroic zones. its that simple.</p><p>As for your asine comments about if you want to tank roll a tank, i played a guardian from launch till eof, i was a raid MT for the whole duration of that time, i eventually shelved my guardian as i no longer wanted to raid MT, and when it came to any content outside raiding, my Brigand could tank better, hold aggro better, dps better, bring more to the group, and took less damage than my full fabled full mastered retired Guardian, and this was before all the stupid changes to the game. So i ditched my decked out guard for a Brigand as it was more fun and gave my grps more flexability in there make up playing a Brigand to tank over a Guardian.</p><p>Brigands can tank any heroic zone / content better than any of the current tanks, i have played them all and nothing comes close to what a Brigand can do.</p><p>And its a good job i dont play no more, b/cos a Guard with Dirge+Coercer+moderate+trak shield couldnt keep aggro off me if i wanted it, nor could a Paladin with Dirge+amend(on me)+Coercer either. Brigands are going to be instant death class's now in raids, lol Aeralik you couldnt kill them by giving them the worst aa's, self buffs, deaggro skills, mythical, so instead your going on the oblique attack angle, play one any where near its limit in a raid and die instanly from aggro!! awesome plan.</p><p>For the poster saying why would you tank? why wouldnt you unless your playing with the very cream of the crop playerwise, its simply easier to tank yourself than waste time with some tank that cannot hold aggro off you, and crys non stop, healers moaning etc etc, right from the get go if everyone knows your tanking its easy life, mobs die quicker healers have to heal less and you dont have to sit about waiting for a Dirge/Coercer/Transfer any combination depending on which "Tank" you usually take along.</p><p>The last time i was invited to a group, there was a Shadowknight and a Zerker in it, rather than waste time trying to hold aggro off me, both knew they had 0 % chance of it, they both simply suggested before we even zoned into the Tso Instance, that i tank it on my Brigand. i was a a bit peeved, as tanking is more work than just following about killing stuff, but i did it, we cleared the zone in a record time, no wipes, everyone left with there shards+updates and was happy.</p><p>If Brigands do not get Significant assistance from the Dev team on there Hate gen, there a class which will spend probably 50% of every fight doing nothing, cos if they do they will simply die from peeling aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Firstly Assasins get Defense Abilities for Two Reasons.. 1. They are not supposed to be the upkeep nightmare that the pure casters are.. 2. Not every single AA ability they get is supposed to be a direct DPS gain, Other classes have abilities that spread off to other things, same goes for assasins. Welcome to the real world. Doesnt mean you get a defense ability that directly means your some kind of tank ..</p><p>Secondly Any DPSer that can Die immediatly should be able to obtain Aggro at a drop of a hat, its overpowered if a DPSer can just sit there and go all out with no consequences.. Its learning how to play the class and actually know what is going to give you aggro or not.. if the button is there, it doesnt necessarily mean its supposed to be pressed 100% of the time .. People are supposed to think on what they need to cast ... Fighters should not be beating you on Hate list at your max DPS parse.. Now if the zerker/guard/SK are not holding aggro to a fraction of what you do.. Its not the class its the players not knowing how to play.. period.</p></blockquote><p>1 :go back to your sand box please, Brigands get a whole tree of AA's that make them Tanks, not a poxy buff to 1 ability like preds. Or are you trying to claim that the KOS Rogue Tree in fact gives +shield effectivness a grp taunt that lands for twice as much as the current unchanged tank grp taunt, a reactive proc on being hit that lands a *gasp* thats right you guessed it a Taunt, more shield effectivness, more hps, a resuce ability on a 1min reuse timer that does more hate positions than rescue does, were added to rogues so they could not tank? lol your great.</p><p>2 : what a load of rubbish, what do you take a Brigand in a raid for ? DPS or DEBUFFS?</p><p>wait whats that using my debuffs will get me aggro and get me killed? so what your saying is Brigands now should not debuff at all ? so what we supposed to sit about and do nothing? lol id love to hear my friends who still play and play a Brigand explaining why the raid wiped cos they didnt debuff and allow the others that drop a mobs dps out put and offensive abilitys down to land there own better.</p><p>your attitude is the reason the devs think its cool to break things that work into things that dont. they have exponentially reduced the amount of hate a Tank is capable of producing and done absolutly nothing to the class's that already had massive issues with aggro, Class's that were Designed to be Aggro heavy around tanks that were producing 14k+ hate sec. that means they have BROKEN something, or do you think its going to be fun sitting about doing nothing for 50% of every fight? or you think its ok to balance class's around 1 model of play, then remove and change that model, yet leave the rest on model 1?.</p><p>please please think before you post again, i know it cant be that hard for you.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Kaja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>how is a Brigand going to be the best instance tank? they will simply be able to produce so much more hate than any tank sans changes that having one in a group means that they are going to tank, whether the tank wants to let them or not.</p><p>they are changing tanks, they are not changing Brigands, a tank spec Brig with tank gear on is going to own a tank in the face for aggro control after these changes if nothing gets changed.</p><p>With the current changes if nothing is done Brigands will be better for instances than any tank, in raids they will die if they actually try to dps/debuff.</p><p>Current tanks are putting up 4-6k on test for hate+dps combined with buffers, i can hit 7-8k solo when im soloing chelsith/coa/kc/seb/chard thats before you factor in the extra hate generated from my debuffs which are on 50% of my ca's, in a group with a dirge+chanter i can easily hit 14k+ on named or trash fights add in my debuff hate your looking at 18-20k hate per second compared to mr tanks 4-6k hate per second.</p><p>Brigands are going to suffer like no other if the Devs do not fix there abilitys, and tanks wont be taking Brigands in groups in heroic zones, cos no one will group with someone who is tanking for them 99.9% of the time. and thats whats on the cards. after this goes live Brigands will be either Tanking there own groups or sitting about solo. raids = dead if try dpsing.</p></blockquote><p>I assumed that since no Brigands have actually tested the changes in groups and complained it wasn't that large of an issue. I coudl have missed some posts though. I'd love to get in an actual group on Test and run an instance to see though. I'm sure though, that we wouldn't be able to find a good enough Brigand for it to be a real test.</p><p>Why would you be in tank gear unless you want to tank, in which case Brigs should be happy about the changes right?If they were the best instance tank before, then certainly they still are. What's the problem?</p><p>There are a lot of multiple mob encounters in TSO. Just seems to me, based on experiences and DPS on Live, that to have a Brig tank you'd really have to lay off on the AoE DPS, which would slow things down. That SK and Zerker you tanked for would have to go AFK. Even my Necro would have to lay off. This is all aside from the real topic though. Sorry.</p><p><cite>Kaja wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><span > they have exponentially reduced the amount of hate a Tank is capable of producing</span></blockquote> <p>LOL</p>

[DMIstar]

<p><cite>Kaja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kaja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>so plate tanks have lost some of their diversity to be allowed to manage aggro and survivability better. rogues now want to be as and more diverse as they were before, why am i not surprised...</p><p>all i'm seeing is whining, if you want to tank then roll a real tank. no matter how much you may want it the truth is everyone wanting to be able to do a little bit of everything is hurting this game more than it is helping it. when i see brigands "offtanking for me" i can't help but laugh when they get splattered. you're not doing me any favors by eating up shaman wards or sucking up spot heals just so you can have a mob to yourself, if you want to tank instances, who said you still can't? it never should have been as easy or easier than it was as a plate tank, but i somehow doubt a rogue would see the problem in that.</p></blockquote><p>learn to read.</p><p>Rogues get given tank skills, get given tank aa tree's + stand alone Aa's. diverse as they were before? we debuff+dps at the same time, outside a raid we can solo better than most. i have not seen any rogue asking for more, what i have seen is rogues asking for all the tank stuff we get given -*- UNWANTED -*- as in no rogue ever asked for tank tree's or tank aa abilitys or tank gear. or def and parry on our set gear, SoE, did this all by themselves, well if they are reworking how this stuff works for the "pure" class's they need to rework it for every other class they gave similar abilitys to, this again is SOE's responsibility, if your reworking aggro / hate / tanking, then it ALL needs to be reworked not just parts of it, as i have already posted, if they do not change it, then Brigand > tanks in heroic zones. its that simple.</p><p>As for your asine comments about if you want to tank roll a tank, i played a guardian from launch till eof, i was a raid MT for the whole duration of that time, i eventually shelved my guardian as i no longer wanted to raid MT, and when it came to any content outside raiding, my Brigand could tank better, hold aggro better, dps better, bring more to the group, and took less damage than my full fabled full mastered retired Guardian, and this was before all the stupid changes to the game. So i ditched my decked out guard for a Brigand as it was more fun and gave my grps more flexability in there make up playing a Brigand to tank over a Guardian.</p><p>Brigands can tank any heroic zone / content better than any of the current tanks, i have played them all and nothing comes close to what a Brigand can do.</p><p>And its a good job i dont play no more, b/cos a Guard with Dirge+Coercer+moderate+trak shield couldnt keep aggro off me if i wanted it, nor could a Paladin with Dirge+amend(on me)+Coercer either. Brigands are going to be instant death class's now in raids, lol Aeralik you couldnt kill them by giving them the worst aa's, self buffs, deaggro skills, mythical, so instead your going on the oblique attack angle, play one any where near its limit in a raid and die instanly from aggro!! awesome plan.</p><p>For the poster saying why would you tank? why wouldnt you unless your playing with the very cream of the crop playerwise, its simply easier to tank yourself than waste time with some tank that cannot hold aggro off you, and crys non stop, healers moaning etc etc, right from the get go if everyone knows your tanking its easy life, mobs die quicker healers have to heal less and you dont have to sit about waiting for a Dirge/Coercer/Transfer any combination depending on which "Tank" you usually take along.</p><p>The last time i was invited to a group, there was a Shadowknight and a Zerker in it, rather than waste time trying to hold aggro off me, both knew they had 0 % chance of it, they both simply suggested before we even zoned into the Tso Instance, that i tank it on my Brigand. i was a a bit peeved, as tanking is more work than just following about killing stuff, but i did it, we cleared the zone in a record time, no wipes, everyone left with there shards+updates and was happy.</p><p>If Brigands do not get Significant assistance from the Dev team on there Hate gen, there a class which will spend probably 50% of every fight doing nothing, cos if they do they will simply die from peeling aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Firstly Assasins get Defense Abilities for Two Reasons.. 1. They are not supposed to be the upkeep nightmare that the pure casters are.. 2. Not every single AA ability they get is supposed to be a direct DPS gain, Other classes have abilities that spread off to other things, same goes for assasins. Welcome to the real world. Doesnt mean you get a defense ability that directly means your some kind of tank ..</p><p>Secondly Any DPSer that can Die immediatly should be able to obtain Aggro at a drop of a hat, its overpowered if a DPSer can just sit there and go all out with no consequences.. Its learning how to play the class and actually know what is going to give you aggro or not.. if the button is there, it doesnt necessarily mean its supposed to be pressed 100% of the time .. People are supposed to think on what they need to cast ... Fighters should not be beating you on Hate list at your max DPS parse.. Now if the zerker/guard/SK are not holding aggro to a fraction of what you do.. Its not the class its the players not knowing how to play.. period.</p></blockquote><p>1 :go back to your sand box please, Brigands get a whole tree of AA's that make them Tanks, not a poxy buff to 1 ability like preds. Or are you trying to claim that the KOS Rogue Tree in fact gives +shield effectivness a grp taunt that lands for twice as much as the current unchanged tank grp taunt, a reactive proc on being hit that lands a *gasp* thats right you guessed it a Taunt, more shield effectivness, more hps, a resuce ability on a 1min reuse timer that does more hate positions than rescue does, were added to rogues so they could not tank? lol your great.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Omg you get shielf Effectivness >.. amazing .. and a rescue abilit Wow ... I guess it was a mistake that your not considered a fighter.. its was a typo all along.. Geez you need help .. </span></p><p>2 : what a load of rubbish, what do you take a Brigand in a raid for ? DPS or DEBUFFS?</p><p>wait whats that using my debuffs will get me aggro and get me killed? so what your saying is Brigands now should not debuff at all ? so what we supposed to sit about and do nothing? lol id love to hear my friends who still play and play a Brigand explaining why the raid wiped cos they didnt debuff and allow the others that drop a mobs dps out put and offensive abilitys down to land there own better.</p><p>your attitude is the reason the devs think its cool to break things that work into things that dont. they have exponentially reduced the amount of hate a Tank is capable of producing and done absolutly nothing to the class's that already had massive issues with aggro, Class's that were Designed to be Aggro heavy around tanks that were producing 14k+ hate sec. that means they have BROKEN something, or do you think its going to be fun sitting about doing nothing for 50% of every fight? or you think its ok to balance class's around 1 model of play, then remove and change that model, yet leave the rest on model 1?.</p><p>please please think before you post again, i know it cant be that hard for you.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So you cant play because you do not know how not to take aggro as a brigand .. Or you actually cant think of anyway to effectivily play your classa .. No wonder you want help .. Here lets make it easy mode for you ..  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is the big thing now of days if its not handed to you on a platter you cant do it.  </span></p></blockquote>

[Kaja]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kaja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>how is a Brigand going to be the best instance tank? they will simply be able to produce so much more hate than any tank sans changes that having one in a group means that they are going to tank, whether the tank wants to let them or not.</p><p>they are changing tanks, they are not changing Brigands, a tank spec Brig with tank gear on is going to own a tank in the face for aggro control after these changes if nothing gets changed.</p><p>With the current changes if nothing is done Brigands will be better for instances than any tank, in raids they will die if they actually try to dps/debuff.</p><p>Current tanks are putting up 4-6k on test for hate+dps combined with buffers, i can hit 7-8k solo when im soloing chelsith/coa/kc/seb/chard thats before you factor in the extra hate generated from my debuffs which are on 50% of my ca's, in a group with a dirge+chanter i can easily hit 14k+ on named or trash fights add in my debuff hate your looking at 18-20k hate per second compared to mr tanks 4-6k hate per second.</p><p>Brigands are going to suffer like no other if the Devs do not fix there abilitys, and tanks wont be taking Brigands in groups in heroic zones, cos no one will group with someone who is tanking for them 99.9% of the time. and thats whats on the cards. after this goes live Brigands will be either Tanking there own groups or sitting about solo. raids = dead if try dpsing.</p></blockquote><p>I assumed that since no Brigands have actually tested the changes in groups and complained it wasn't that large of an issue. I coudl have missed some posts though. I'd love to get in an actual group on Test and run an instance to see though. I'm sure though, that we wouldn't be able to find a good enough Brigand for it to be a real test.</p><p>Why would you be in tank gear unless you want to tank, in which case Brigs should be happy about the changes right?If they were the best instance tank before, then certainly they still are. What's the problem?</p><p>There are a lot of multiple mob encounters in TSO. Just seems to me, based on experiences and DPS on Live, that to have a Brig tank you'd really have to lay off on the AoE DPS, which would slow things down. That SK and Zerker you tanked for would have to go AFK. Even my Necro would have to lay off. This is all aside from the real topic though. Sorry.</p></blockquote><p>The problem is a Brigand should not be out performing a tank in the role of a tank, and more to the point what tank is going to be able to hold aggro off one ? i can see the same issues arising for sorcs with grp mobs. current changes maybe just maybe a SK can 50/50 chance keeping a multi mob off of a Sorc.</p><p>SoE put scout tank gear in eq2 on the raid mobs, as i liked to tank out of raids for select friends when there was no other tank availiable, id take the tank gear rather than let it rot / mute. thats how i ended up with a fair bit of scout tank fabled gear. Also they have been putting +parry+def on brigand fabled set gear since they added the first sets. Brigands only need that to tank pretty much. we all complained about it, but as usual nothing changed and they kept it on.</p><p>Brigands can tank multi mob encounters just fine, i was managing with a top geared wizzy, with a troub in lower corridors. sure i had to work my Butt off and change targets continually to keep aggro and also use appeal for mercy, but we were doing the grps in there brig/temp/troub/wiz nps at all, he did die if he landed fusion on inc lol, but once he adjusted his cast order, ie single nukes on inc then 15secs or so into fight he could let rip. thats all that was needed a slight change in inital cast order and he could dps his heart out.</p><p>What id like them to do would be to reduce Brigands Hate Gen significantly, and bring them down when Tanking to be slightly worse than Tanks are for hate gen. a pipe dream though, Aeralik will never in a million years reduce the obscene amount of hate a Brigand produces.</p>

[Kaja]

<p><span ><cite>Kaja wrote:</cite></span></p><p><span ><span style="color: #ff0000;">Omg you get shielf Effectivness >.. amazing .. and a rescue abilit Wow ... I guess it was a mistake that your not considered a fighter.. its was a typo all along.. Geez you need help .. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So you cant play because you do not know how not to take aggro as a brigand .. Or you actually cant think of anyway to effectivily play your classa .. No wonder you want help .. Here lets make it easy mode for you ..  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is the big thing now of days if its not handed to you on a platter you cant do it. </span></p><p>Last time of trying with you i guess, i have no clue what level you play at eq2 at, so let me preface this by saying this is only concerning the players at the top end of the eq2 spectrum. thats not elitism thats simply facts of the maths, you simply will not EVER see what im talking about till you reach a certain gear / play level.</p><p>1: Brigands get the same abilitys as tanks do in eq2 via ca's and AA abilitys, i cant make that any more basic or simple for you, if that does not make them "tanks" im not sure what would in your view.</p><p>2: i dont know why im bothering typing this, but here goes. Tanks were producing with transfers+deaggros+siphons etc etc at the top end 14k+ of hate per second. DPS class's at this end of the spectrum STILL are producing anything upto 18K hate per second.</p><p>Tanks are now producing a fraction of what they were doing, the DPS is still the same, this means they have broken the Balance of the game, people do NOT play a dps class in a raid to sit there doing nothing for 50% of a fight, its not fun, its not entertaining, it doesnt make you want to log in night after night and raid. its frustraiting, annoying, and boring, there 3 things i would try to AVOID like the plague if if i was a game Dev.</p><p>hope that clears that up for you. it has nothing to do with i cant play eq2, i cant play eq2 with the current Broken hate mechanics. not b/cos i lack the abilitys, the game mechanics are wrong, if my only choice is sit and do nothing for a substantial part of an encounter or die, something is bust. but im sure you will keep trying to claim i suck at eq2 and i have no clue what im talking about. either way im done replying to you.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Personally, I'm totally fine with brigands being able to tank...on two conditions:</p><p>1)they sacrifice a bunch of dps to tank (which is presumeably the case, since they'de have to specifically spec for it, put on a shield, etc.)</p><p>2)Brawlers get to tank like rogues, if we sacrifice all surviveability for it </p><p>Why not let them be a crossover class?  Who says you have to pick one role?  Certainly not the devs, they're the ones that gave them the tools to do it.  I'll be honest, I've never used a swashy or brigand to tank anything besides the adds on the last named in RE2, but I'm not oppossed to it in principle.  And be honest...is there a fighter here who's ever asked to join a group and heard "sorry, we're not interested in your Monk...we have a swashy already"?</p><p>Its O.K.</p><p>Don't flip out.  Let them have their fun!</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And be honest...is there a fighter here who's ever asked to join a group and heard "sorry, we're not interested in your Monk...we have a swashy already"?</p></blockquote><p>Actually, yes. I have been denied a tanking position to a rogue before. I was [Removed for Content].</p>

[Kaja]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Personally, I'm totally fine with brigands being able to tank...on two conditions:</p><p>1)they sacrifice a bunch of dps to tank (which is presumeably the case, since they'de have to specifically spec for it, put on a shield, etc.)</p><p>2)Brawlers get to tank like rogues, if we sacrifice all surviveability for it </p><p>Why not let them be a crossover class?  Who says you have to pick one role?  Certainly not the devs, they're the ones that gave them the tools to do it.  I'll be honest, I've never used a swashy or brigand to tank anything besides the adds on the last named in RE2, but I'm not oppossed to it in principle.  And be honest...is there a fighter here who's ever asked to join a group and heard "sorry, we're not interested in your Monk...we have a swashy already"?</p><p>Its O.K.</p><p>Don't flip out.  Let them have their fun!</p></blockquote><p>Brigs dont sacrifice dps at all to tank, maybe on 4-5 fights total in all heroic zones, does my dps drop drastically, i can be parsing 12-18k per fight on a named mob while tanking it. all depends on my group make up. i dont know many fighters that can put up that kind of dps while tanking.</p><p>This is why i said Aeralik needs to drastically rework the way Brigands work with there crazy hate gen, you can bet on a fight where i parse 18k dps ive been producing something in the region of 22k+ hate per second, maybe higher if debuffs are 1-1 ratio on hate. like damage is.</p><p>my M1 dispatch with aa enhancers+mythical debuffs everything 5.2k~ish and can crit for about just shy of 5k damage, usual double up chain for me can land for anything in the region of 20-30k damage in 2secs + about 8k+ worth of debuffs. thats 99.9% of the time a aggro puller for me with the hate mechanics unchanged, with the new ones on test, ill be getting aggro after my first Ca, never mind the next 2 in the chain.</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't even know why some rogues even want to tank, it sucks.</p></blockquote><p>QFE. If I wanted to tank -- heck, if I even wanted ACCESS to tanking abilities -- I'd have created a tank in the first freekin' place.</p>

[Kaja]

<p><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't even know why some rogues even want to tank, it sucks.</p></blockquote><p>QFE. If I wanted to tank -- heck, if I even wanted ACCESS to tanking abilities -- I'd have created a tank in the first freekin' place.</p></blockquote><p>copy pasted for you as you seem to have missed it earlier, bolded the particularly relevant parts.</p><p>_*_ <span >As for your asine comments about if you want to tank roll a tank, i played a guardian from launch till eof, i was a raid MT for the whole duration of that time, i eventually shelved my guardian as i no longer wanted to raid MT, and when it came to any content outside raiding, <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>my Brigand could tank better, hold aggro better, dps better, bring more to the group, and took less damage than my full fabled full mastered retired Guardian</strong></span>, and this was before all the stupid changes to the game. So i ditched my decked out guard for a Brigand as it was more fun and gave my grps more flexability in there make up playing a Brigand to tank over a Guardian._*_</span></p><p>I had a tank, the very best tank class in eq2, geared in the very best gear you could wear in eq2, using full masters for every single ability it had at that level cap. i still ditched it for a Brigand to tank.</p>

[liveja]

<p><cite>Kaja wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I had a tank, the very best tank class in eq2, geared in the very best gear you could wear in eq2, using full masters for every single ability it had at that level cap. i still ditched it for a Brigand to tank.</p></blockquote><p>U can haz cookie, now <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Maybe if your Brigand wasn't such a good tank in the first freekin' place, you wouldn't have made such a totally counter-intuitive decision.</p>