Brawler changes. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Orthureon

01-11-2009, 10:29 PM

Well the stances don't bother me much, it seems if you want to tank you have to stay in defensive, as it should be.Anyways, just a few suggestions since this is Fighter rebalancing. This is not just concerning the recent changes, there are some other things that could use a tweak.>>> Bruiser, Offensive Stance:<ul><li>Add a DPS mod to the stance equal to the Haste mod the Monk gets. Since Monks now get a damage proc on their stance aswell, I only see this as fair.</li></ul>>>> Wisdom Line, Crane Flock: AE autoattack of 16% chance maxed???<ul><li>Please atleast make it 20% with a 20% chance to knockback an opponent for 1s. Warriors get an AE autoattack of 40%.</li></ul>>>> Intelligence Line, Eagle Spin (Eagle Cry): Taunts and does terrible damage, no long turns the mob.<ul><li>Make it spin the mob still aswell as taunt, drop the damage. When you spin the mob it is effectively a daze and helps with tanking, since you take less damage as it can no longer autoattack you.</li></ul>>>> Inner Focus:<ul><li>Make it a passive proc that absorbs all damage that would do more than 25% of the Brawlers health. Can only proc 1 or 2 times a minute.</li></ul>>>> Aversion:<ul><li>Should give 25% critical mitigation when maxed.</li></ul>>>> AA Deflection (right near Aversion, can't remember the name atm):<ul><li>Should give 25% chance to avoid double attacks when maxed.</li></ul>>>> Other thoughts:<ul><li>The Brawler is supposed to be the DPS tank, we should get 125% - 150% of the other Fighters AA increases to similar damage based stats. IE: We should get more Crit and DA with AA than anyother tank.</li><li>I am not sure if the de-hates from Offensive Stance will work in PVP, but they definitely should.</li></ul>

Valenx

01-12-2009, 03:49 AM

Agree'd with all of the above

Natthan

01-12-2009, 04:15 AM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well the stances don't bother me much, it seems if you want to tank you have to stay in defensive, as it should be.Anyways, just a few suggestions since this is Fighter rebalancing. This is not just concerning the recent changes, there are some other things that could use a tweak.>>> Bruiser, Offensive Stance:<ul><li>Add a DPS mod to the stance equal to the Haste mod the Monk gets. Since Monks now get a damage proc on their stance aswell, I only see this as fair.</li></ul>>>> Wisdom Line, Crane Flock: AE autoattack of 16% chance maxed???<ul><li>Please atleast make it 20% with a 20% chance to knockback an opponent for 1s. Warriors get an AE autoattack of 40%.</li></ul>>>> Intelligence Line, Eagle Spin (Eagle Cry): Taunts and does terrible damage, no long turns the mob.<ul><li>Make it spin the mob still aswell as taunt, drop the damage. When you spin the mob it is effectively a daze and helps with tanking, since you take less damage as it can no longer autoattack you.</li></ul>>>> Inner Focus:<ul><li>Make it a passive proc that absorbs all damage that would do more than 25% of the Brawlers health. Can only proc 1 or 2 times a minute.</li></ul>>>> Aversion:<ul><li>Should give 25% critical mitigation when maxed.</li></ul>>>> AA Deflection (right near Aversion, can't remember the name atm):<ul><li>Should give 25% chance to avoid double attacks when maxed.</li></ul>>>> Other thoughts:<ul><li>The Brawler is supposed to be the DPS tank, we should get 125% - 150% of the other Fighters AA increases to similar damage based stats. IE: We should get more Crit and DA with AA than anyother tank.</li><li>I am not sure if the de-hates from Offensive Stance will work in PVP, but they definitely should.</li></ul></blockquote>That is a big no! Make it a daze and remove the turn, Nothing is more annoying on scouts then to have a rouge/brawler Eagle Spin/Walk the Plank the mob to face you when your trying to get its back, and then by the time you adjust again its almost over anyways.Rest I agree w/

Splor

01-12-2009, 04:31 AM

<blockquote>That is a big no! Make it a daze and remove the turn, Nothing is more annoying on scouts then to have a rouge/brawler Eagle Spin/Walk the Plank the mob to face you when your trying to get its back, and then by the time you adjust again its almost over anyways. Rest I agree w/</blockquote>Bruisers have back attacks as well and in heroic instances its easier to just turn the mob and hit it rather than dance around like an idiot hoping the mob doesnt turn the right way and interrupt you. Its also a matter of survivability as you can force the mob to not hit you for a short duration. In some despirate moments its actually a last resort when everything else can be down. Tank survivability > some scouts dps. I also agree with the OP about the changes.

Herme

01-12-2009, 04:36 AM

It's a bruiser thing. Monk has no back attacks.

Dorieon

01-12-2009, 04:51 AM

<cite>Strayslayer@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's a bruiser thing. Monk has no back attacks. </blockquote>Its mostly a bruiser thing. However, its a decent ca to have as a monk if you spike and have nothing else up.And for the person who said 'it sucks, it ruins scout dps'.... most times if the tank dies you die. So if I have to turn the mob to avoid an attack and your dps suffers....you're welcome. Now if a tank just uses it because it is up, they suck as a tank imo.

xKHONSx

01-12-2009, 05:04 AM

<cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote> Now if a tank just uses it because it is up, they suck as a tank imo.</blockquote>Not if you are in a full group of friends and/or guildies and enjoy annoying them!

TheSpin

01-12-2009, 05:10 AM

<cite>Natthan@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well the stances don't bother me much, it seems if you want to tank you have to stay in defensive, as it should be.Anyways, just a few suggestions since this is Fighter rebalancing. This is not just concerning the recent changes, there are some other things that could use a tweak.>>> Bruiser, Offensive Stance:<ul><li>Add a DPS mod to the stance equal to the Haste mod the Monk gets. Since Monks now get a damage proc on their stance aswell, I only see this as fair.</li></ul>>>> Wisdom Line, Crane Flock: AE autoattack of 16% chance maxed???<ul><li>Please atleast make it 20% with a 20% chance to knockback an opponent for 1s. Warriors get an AE autoattack of 40%.</li></ul>>>> Intelligence Line, Eagle Spin (Eagle Cry): Taunts and does terrible damage, no long turns the mob.<ul><li>Make it spin the mob still aswell as taunt, drop the damage. When you spin the mob it is effectively a daze and helps with tanking, since you take less damage as it can no longer autoattack you.</li></ul>>>> Inner Focus:<ul><li>Make it a passive proc that absorbs all damage that would do more than 25% of the Brawlers health. Can only proc 1 or 2 times a minute.</li></ul>>>> Aversion:<ul><li>Should give 25% critical mitigation when maxed.</li></ul>>>> AA Deflection (right near Aversion, can't remember the name atm):<ul><li>Should give 25% chance to avoid double attacks when maxed.</li></ul>>>> Other thoughts:<ul><li>The Brawler is supposed to be the DPS tank, we should get 125% - 150% of the other Fighters AA increases to similar damage based stats. IE: We should get more Crit and DA with AA than anyother tank.</li><li>I am not sure if the de-hates from Offensive Stance will work in PVP, but they definitely should.</li></ul></blockquote>That is a big no! Make it a daze and remove the turn, Nothing is more annoying on scouts then to have a rouge/brawler Eagle Spin/Walk the Plank the mob to face you when your trying to get its back, and then by the time you adjust again its almost over anyways.Rest I agree w/</blockquote>As a brigand I have to disagree with you. It has to be a turn rather than a daze because many named mobs are immune to daze, but only a handful cannot be turned.I often turn a mob if the tank recieves spike damage and it gives the healer(s) a few seconds to get the tank back up. This is especially effective on named mobs that hit really hard.

Dorieon

01-12-2009, 06:07 AM

<cite>xKHONSx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dorieon@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote> Now if a tank just uses it because it is up, they suck as a tank imo.</blockquote>Not if you are in a full group of friends and/or guildies and enjoy annoying them!</blockquote>Touche.

Orthureon

01-12-2009, 11:08 PM

Ah more replies than I thought I would get lol! Anyways, Eagle Spin was very easy to use in a group IF the tank is thinking correctly; simply knock the mob down, run where the scouts are and use Eagle Spin. Very simple tactic which may only disrupt DPS output for a second or two, but has the benefit of saving the tanks life in certain situations.

Appollyon

01-13-2009, 12:18 AM

I agree whole heartedly with these. I would also like them to remove the buff combines and have them look at our DPS compared to the other tanks and adjust upwards accordingly; we should clearly be ahead of the other 4 fighters where now dps is very similar if not less in some cases. I don’t think they need to nerf the other fighters just raise ours but keep us just below the pure dps classes. We also need to have our avoidance numbers looked at since we are getting similar avoidance and less mit and dps than some scouts making us less able to tank then a DPS class. I feel our usefulness in most situations has gone the way of the Dodo and needs to be addressed in the fighter revamp

Orthureon

01-13-2009, 01:31 AM

<cite>Appollyon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree whole heartedly with these. I would also like them to remove the buff combines and have them look at our DPS compared to the other tanks and adjust upwards accordingly; we should clearly be ahead of the other 4 fighters where now dps is very similar if not less in some cases. I don’t think they need to nerf the other fighters just raise ours but keep us just below the pure dps classes. We also need to have our avoidance numbers looked at since we are getting similar avoidance and less mit and dps than some scouts making us less able to tank then a DPS class. I feel our usefulness in most situations has gone the way of the Dodo and needs to be addressed in the fighter revamp</blockquote>Precisely I don't want anyone to get a nerf. Simply to adjust our class, like you said I have seen all other fighter types outparse Brawlers.One more thing I left out, was the fact that they need to make Devastation Fist equal to Harm Touch. As it is if you look at the differences they are very obvious. And the superior ability is possessed by the "supposed" inferior DPS hybrid.>>> Harm Touch<ul><li>Instant Cast</li><li>5 Minute Reuse</li><li>30 Meter Range</li><li>Can be cast multiple times if resisted</li></ul>>>> Devastation Fist<ul><li>0.5 second cast</li><li>5 Minute Reuse</li><li>5 Meter Range</li><li>Misses often, and once it misses you must wait the full reuse.</li></ul>Devastation Fist should be 100% easier to hit, and hit for the same as Harm Touch.

Bigmik22

01-13-2009, 08:01 AM

I agree with most of the ideas. Not sure about ideas with the stoneskin changes.Stances definately need fixing though, the bruisers LOST dps (less procs) with the spell merge, monks GAINED dps (new procs), so something is wrong here.Two more things to point out - the monk defensive stance give 8% (m1) bigger taunt amount, bruiser gets nothing to compensate.The monk Everburning line has been merged into the stances, giving free (no more health cost) haste, while our Resistant Spirit line has not been merged into the stances, keeping the health cost and the annoying fact, that the reuse timer starts only after the spell expires.With Gut Punch and Eagly Spin (now Eagle Cry) - another option (apart from getting spin back) is just to remove the positional condition, it is not necessary. The recast timer is already double the monk version, that's enough.Just to clarify - I by no means want any nerf to the monk changes, I want equal changes for bruisers.Xzarass, Nagafen server

mr23sgte

01-13-2009, 12:25 PM

The trade-off for wearing leather was higher DPS and more avoid ---- we have like 10% more avoid and DPS is not the highest. C'mon how about a lil help here on GU51 ..............We mostly have to work with craptastic 2.5 delay weapons with lower damage spreads for crits Warriors get 25% melee crit compaired to 18% BrawlersWarriors get 25% Double attack and Brawlers get 21%Crusaders/Warriors get 40% AoE attack while Brawlers (on test) has 16%DISCLAIM - NOT ASKING FOR OTHER FIGHTER NERFS _ JUST FOR BRAWLERS TO BE EQUAL IN THESE STATS

Ammolite

01-13-2009, 01:41 PM

<cite>Hereo@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote> The trade-off for wearing leather was higher DPS and more avoid ---- we have like 10% more avoid and DPS is not the highest. C'mon how about a lil help here on GU51 ..............We mostly have to work with craptastic 2.5 delay weapons with lower damage spreads for critsWarriors get 25% melee crit compaired to 18% BrawlersWarriors get 25% Double attack and Brawlers get 21%Crusaders/Warriors get 40% AoE attack while Brawlers (on test) has 16%DISCLAIM - NOT ASKING FOR OTHER FIGHTER NERFS _ JUST FOR BRAWLERS TO BE EQUAL IN THESE STATS</blockquote>I second this. You should move everyone up, and make the mobs harder ( eveutally ) rather than taking things away from us.

Novusod

01-13-2009, 02:51 PM

<cite>Splorch wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>That is a big no! Make it a daze and remove the turn, Nothing is more annoying on scouts then to have a rouge/brawler Eagle Spin/Walk the Plank the mob to face you when your trying to get its back, and then by the time you adjust again its almost over anyways. Rest I agree w/</blockquote>Bruisers have back attacks as well and in heroic instances its easier to just turn the mob and hit it rather than dance around like an idiot hoping the mob doesnt turn the right way and interrupt you. Its also a matter of survivability as you can force the mob to not hit you for a short duration. In some despirate moments its actually a last resort when everything else can be down. Tank survivability > some scouts dps. I also agree with the OP about the changes.</blockquote>The biggest nerf to Eagal spin was not the loss of the turn but the loss of the "ROOT" effect it had. If a mob mem-wiped using eagal spin was one of the best tools to keep the mob from running off and wacking the healers or casters. Also certain mobs especially in raids have adds that need to rooted or it is Death. I can live without the Turn effect on Eagal spin(cry) but loss of the Root would be a huge nerf to brawler CC. I ask the devs to please give us back our root.

Xanrn

01-13-2009, 06:30 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>>>> Bruiser, Offensive Stance:<ul><li>Add a DPS mod to the stance equal to the Haste mod the Monk gets. Since Monks now get a damage proc on their stance aswell, I only see this as fair.</li></ul></blockquote>Uh no because Haste and DPS are not 1=1. Its more 4 Haste to 1 DPS.Half the haste on Off stance, most on Mid stance and all on Def stance comes from our seperate haste buff being folded into the stance.

Geothe

01-13-2009, 06:45 PM

<cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uh no because Haste and DPS are not 1=1. Its more 4 Haste to 1 DPS.</blockquote>Uh no.+1% Haste increases your autoattack DPS by the same amount as +1% DPS.

Junaru

01-13-2009, 06:51 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uh no because Haste and DPS are not 1=1. Its more 4 Haste to 1 DPS.</blockquote>Uh no.+1% Haste increases your autoattack DPS by the same amount as +1% DPS.</blockquote>Maybe you didn't get his point or maybe you just really think 1% DPS is equal to 1% Haste. Either way you are wrong.

Boramyr

01-13-2009, 06:56 PM

If anything Haste is better than DPS because if you have a 3 second delay weapon for instance with a 2 times per minute proc that means roughly it'll have a 10% chance to procc (once every 10 swings) since your swinging 20 times a minute. If you get hasted up so your swinging every 2 seconds then you still proc every 10 swings (that 10% is unchanged by the haste), but now your swining 30 times a minute so you get 3 procs in that minute not two.

Lethe5683

01-13-2009, 07:59 PM

Lethe5683

01-13-2009, 08:00 PM

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uh no because Haste and DPS are not 1=1. Its more 4 Haste to 1 DPS.</blockquote>Uh no.+1% Haste increases your autoattack DPS by the same amount as +1% DPS.</blockquote>Maybe you didn't get his point or maybe you just really think 1% DPS is equal to 1% Haste. Either way you are wrong.</blockquote>I think they mean the fact that since haste buffs are easier to get than DPS buffs are.

Morrolan V

01-13-2009, 08:02 PM

<cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote>If anything Haste is better than DPS because if you have a 3 second delay weapon for instance with a 2 times per minute proc that means roughly it'll have a 10% chance to procc (once every 10 swings) since your swinging 20 times a minute. If you get hasted up so your swinging every 2 seconds then you still proc every 10 swings (that 10% is unchanged by the haste), but now your swining 30 times a minute so you get 3 procs in that minute not two. </blockquote>This is incorrect. Haste does not increase proc chance on any proc that is stated as "approximately x times per minute." Those procs, which are the majority of procs in the game, are normalized to proc that often based upon the ACTUAL delay of the weapon, including all applied haste.

Lethe5683

01-13-2009, 08:16 PM

<cite>Morrolan V wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote>If anything Haste is better than DPS because if you have a 3 second delay weapon for instance with a 2 times per minute proc that means roughly it'll have a 10% chance to procc (once every 10 swings) since your swinging 20 times a minute. If you get hasted up so your swinging every 2 seconds then you still proc every 10 swings (that 10% is unchanged by the haste), but now your swining 30 times a minute so you get 3 procs in that minute not two. </blockquote>This is incorrect. Haste does not increase proc chance on any proc that is stated as "approximately x times per minute." Those procs, which are the majority of procs in the game, are normalized to proc that often based upon the ACTUAL delay of the weapon, including all applied haste.</blockquote>I'm not certain but I don't belive that is true. The proc rate is based only on the weapons base speed. Increaseing hate will increase the procs per minute.

Turb

01-13-2009, 09:53 PM

<cite>Bigmik22 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with most of the ideas. Not sure about ideas with the stoneskin changes.Stances definately need fixing though, the bruisers LOST dps (less procs) with the spell merge, monks GAINED dps (new procs), so something is wrong here.Two more things to point out - the monk defensive stance give 8% (m1) bigger taunt amount, bruiser gets nothing to compensate.The monk Everburning line has been merged into the stances, giving free (no more health cost) haste, while our Resistant Spirit line has not been merged into the stances, keeping the health cost and the annoying fact, that the reuse timer starts only after the spell expires.With Gut Punch and Eagly Spin (now Eagle Cry) - another option (apart from getting spin back) is just to remove the positional condition, it is not necessary. The recast timer is already double the monk version, that's enough.Just to clarify - I by no means want any nerf to the monk changes, I want equal changes for bruisers.</blockquote>Well I think just tipping the scales a bit back towards monks will have them pretty darn close to even post LU51. The TSO changes put bruisers slightly ahead. Everburning was kinda pointless often though - your haste, especially when raiding, is capped anyway from it.Note the changes being made give little extras to monks, they're not nerfs to bruisers as such. I don't think any reasonable monk would want to see bruisers nerfed. I think it's nice to have a few (subtle) differences, that give a some differences and tradeoffs on the classes. Like monks being able to use Iron Stance 30 secs every 3 mins from TSO AA, while bruisers get a lesser but permenent mit boost.I do agree with the comment about positional attacks though - my prefered choice of course would be for the spin to be restored... it's a free 3 second spike saver that it would be a shame to lose... avoidance tanks need tools to help prevent an 'unlucky' string of hits on us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Turb

01-13-2009, 09:56 PM

<cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote>If anything Haste is better than DPS because if you have a 3 second delay weapon for instance with a 2 times per minute proc that means roughly it'll have a 10% chance to procc (once every 10 swings) since your swinging 20 times a minute. If you get hasted up so your swinging every 2 seconds then you still proc every 10 swings (that 10% is unchanged by the haste), but now your swining 30 times a minute so you get 3 procs in that minute not two. </blockquote>One point to note is that there are a good few game items offering 30-40% haste, while there aren't many at all offering anything like that for dps. As a monk, my dps of course lags way behind my haste, and my haste in raid is often (pointlessly) sitting well over 300.

Dynaen

01-13-2009, 11:18 PM

As someone else said in another forum, the only reason Eagle Spin is being changed is probably because a certain someone had their backstab chain messed up one too many times while playing their dark elf assassin with a brawler in the group.There's absolutely no reason to change it at this point in the game whatsoever, changing it from a good part of our lineup to something completely useless.

Shankalot

01-14-2009, 01:12 AM

well the only thing i can really complain about is the monks stance out of all of them is severely overpowered in tanking and dps 10 times a min 100 point taunt versus bruisers 1.8 times 100 point taunt on top of this in def stance monks get and extra base taunt of 8% and 4 more % to hate gain and haste and they get our str component.... i see this as wrong,in offensive we get the same damage proc but bruiser is 2.4 while monk is like 4 times a minute with 95 haste...........it doesnt seem right how overpowering it is really either takes monks down to all other fighter lvls or if you are helping brawlers shoot bruisers stance up with monks.

Couching

01-14-2009, 03:39 AM

<cite>Shankalot wrote:</cite><blockquote>well the only thing i can really complain about is the monks stance out of all of them is severely overpowered in tanking and dps 10 times a min 100 point taunt versus bruisers 1.8 times 100 point taunt on top of this in def stance monks get and extra base taunt of 8% and 4 more % to hate gain and haste and they get our str component.... i see this as wrong,in offensive we get the same damage proc but bruiser is 2.4 while monk is like 4 times a minute with 95 haste...........it doesnt seem right how overpowering it is really either takes monks down to all other fighter lvls or if you are helping brawlers shoot bruisers stance up with monks.</blockquote>Please don't simplify the dps balance to bruiser get procs and monks get haste. No, it's not. From game launch, bruisers got proc AND hard hitting CAs and monks got haste. At that time, most people got only 15% haste from FBSS and monk could get haste up to almost cap, 100% at that time. Now, it's too easy to get haste. I get 52% haste from just gear. If I want, I can get over 60% from gear. Not to say, too many classes got new abilities to give haste in the group. The last problem of haste is diminishing return. It's really a stupid design and didn't make any sense. A guy with 200 haste is merely faster than another guy with 120-130 hasate. It's so stupid. Bruisers got bigger and bigger CAs and improved KO combo with level up. The CA damage gap between bruiser and monk is larger with higher level. What did monks get? More and more stupid haste, totally useless. With CA crit damage change, the dps gap between bruiser and monk is even worse. A lot of monks have sent feedback and asked for a dps fix for monk. We need something other than haste, damage proc or extra aoe damage that bruiser don't have. On live server, bruiser damage proc rate is 2.0ppm. On test server, it's 2.4 ppm in offensive. You get a boost rather than nerf. The real issue is the hate proc rate on defensive. The only reason you didn't get 10ppm hate proc as monk is because another stupid design: bruiser is aoe tank in brawler. Soe didn't give you 10ppm hate proc is because there needs to be a difference between aoe tank and single target tank on single target hate generation. You can't be good at both aoe and single target at same time.

Appollyon

01-14-2009, 04:15 AM

Orthureon

01-14-2009, 06:13 AM

<cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>>>> Bruiser, Offensive Stance:<ul><li>Add a DPS mod to the stance equal to the Haste mod the Monk gets. Since Monks now get a damage proc on their stance aswell, I only see this as fair.</li></ul></blockquote>Uh no because Haste and DPS are not 1=1. Its more 4 Haste to 1 DPS.Half the haste on Off stance, most on Mid stance and all on Def stance comes from our seperate haste buff being folded into the stance.</blockquote>Yes and Monks got a damage buff EQUAL in damage and superior in PPM (Monk 4 PPM, Bruiser 2.4 PPM) to Bruisers. Which happens to be a seperate buff Bruisers had, however Monks did not. So in your opinion SoE should take away your damage proc from Offensive Stance, afterall you didn't have the buff to begin with??? Silly reasoning. As far as the haste and all that jazz, I see Monks and Bruisers parse about the same. Autoattack > CAs, the parses don't lie.Also, I thought Bruiser was supposed to be less defensive and more offensive Brawler?

Noaani

01-14-2009, 07:15 AM

If Crane Flock was made 40%, how many brawlers would take the wis end ability? I know I wouldn't.It was my assumption when looking at the changes that the reason it was set to 16% was to keep that as a viable achievement. If thats the case, then Crane Flock needs to have something else added to it or the end ability needs to be altered so that Crane Flock can be set to 40%.

Turb

01-14-2009, 10:40 AM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes and Monks got a damage buff EQUAL in damage and superior in PPM (Monk 4 PPM, Bruiser 2.4 PPM) to Bruisers. Which happens to be a seperate buff Bruisers had, however Monks did not. So in your opinion SoE should take away your damage proc from Offensive Stance, afterall you didn't have the buff to begin with??? Silly reasoning. As far as the haste and all that jazz, I see Monks and Bruisers parse about the same. Autoattack > CAs, the parses don't lie.Also, I thought Bruiser was supposed to be less defensive and more offensive Brawler?</blockquote>The problem monks have is that their advantage from haste, as someone else said above, no longer means anything, certainly when raiding. I will often sit in raids at 150+ dps bonus, 275+ haste, and proccing/bursting to 100% melee crit and DA for that matter. The haste buffs I get mean little to me, while they are much more valuable to a bruiser, who also has the stronger CA damage.Thus I suspect the current proposed stances are bearing this issue with haste in mind. It was originally a nice way to differentiate monks (fast melee hits) and bruisers (harder hitting CAs), but the game's expansions have eroded the value of a monk's haste self-buffs.Having said that I think bruisers should produce a little more dps than a monk on average, no problem with that, I just ask that bruisers think about what haste means to a monk in today's EQ2 (as opposed to EQ2 of old).

Junaru

01-14-2009, 12:15 PM

Self buffed on live my Monk sits at 151 haste and has a delay of 1.5s. Any addintional haste does NOTHING for me. At 300 haste my delay is 1.5s. They say the haste cap is 200 and if you have a weapon with a long delay you will notice the different between 150 and 200 haste. But with 2.5s delay weapons there is no difference.Monk haste has always been an issue for us. While it was nice maxing out self buffed it meant we gained very little from a well built group. A Bruiser in a group with an Illy, Dirge and Inq will gain more then a Monk in the same group. And given the same gear and skill levels a Bruiser will out DPS a Monk. The proc on o-stance closes the gap a little but isn't going to change that.

Gungo

01-14-2009, 12:46 PM

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>Self buffed on live my Monk sits at 151 haste and has a delay of 1.5s. Any addintional haste does NOTHING for me. At 300 haste my delay is 1.5s. They say the haste cap is 200 and if you have a weapon with a long delay you will notice the different between 150 and 200 haste. But with 2.5s delay weapons there is no difference.Monk haste has always been an issue for us. While it was nice maxing out self buffed it meant we gained very little from a well built group. A Bruiser in a group with an Illy, Dirge and Inq will gain more then a Monk in the same group. And given the same gear and skill levels a Bruiser will out DPS a Monk. The proc on o-stance closes the gap a little but isn't going to change that.</blockquote>Your post makes absolutely no sense.Hey both monks and bruisers gain no benefit from haste above 150 haste since we both have the same delay, but bruisers gain more from that no benefit so monks having higher damage procs is needed. what you said is complete fabrication and you know it. There is absolutely no reasoning whatsoever a monk should have gotten; heck every fighter have gotton the gains on thier stances while bruisers were nerfed. The only thing you proved is how little benefit the extra haste gain bruisers get adds. You cant have it both ways. We already lost one proc in the merger.Bruiser off stance test 800-1333 2.4ppm Guard off stance test 899-1349 4ppm Monk off stance test 909-1364 4ppm plus 95% atk speed This is for all three stances but i needed to show you at least the offensive stance. Furthermore these changes to bruisers are actually a nerf across the board. Manhandle which you tied to defenive stance (which was used in all 3 stances) went down in damage do to the lower level spell but you reduced the proc rate also from 5.0ppm to 1.8ppm and kept the monks 10ppm from live. This equates to roughly 12k threat per minute for the monk compared to 3.5k for the Bruiser! bruiser def stance test 174-290 damage 1.8ppm 1483-1812 hate Monk def stance test 1685-2528 hate 10ppm 12.8% Increased hate gain-(Bruisers received only 8%!) 8.0% Base taunt amount-(Bruisers did not receive this effect at all!) 46 ATK speed- (Bruisers nothing) Furthermore you reduced our mid stance proc as well and gave monks (the only other class with a mid stance) a better proc and kept their haste as well. Bruiser test mid stance 666-1110 dam 1.0ppm Monks test mid stance 600-930 dam 1.8ppm 69% atk speed And don't pass the buck saying all that extra haste in defensive and yoru other stances came from your health drain buff, because guess what bruiser still have to deal with the health drain whereas monks do not. You no longer have to deal with 40% health drained a minute. Look i am not looking for anything extra i just want the same courtesy given to other fighters without being substantially nerfed in the process. That is imho, keep the values the same and just make the proc rates comparable to the upgrades each class recieved. def stance should be 5.0ppm (same as live)(possibly increase the damage proc slightly and leave the threat proc alone)(although make hate % the same) mid stance should be 2.8ppm (same as live and the same proc rate given to monks 1.0+1.8 ) off stance should be 6.0ppm (same as live 2.0 and the same proc rate given to all other fighters 4.0)(add in an 8% combat art bonus to offset the 8% taunt bonus monks recieved in defensive, this was also added to zerkers so its not anythign new)You keep saying bruisers out tanked and outdps monks. Well bruiser lost thier manhandle proc in off and mid and monks have a bigger threat proc in defensive. But the additions and changes beyond that is complete overkill.

Junaru

01-14-2009, 01:10 PM

Gungo how many Bruisers sit at 150 haste self buffed? NONE. My point is with a well build group a Bruiser will be maxed haste gaining more then a Monk since a Monk doesn't gain any more on haste.Self buffed and equal gear a Bruiser will out DPS a Monk as long as power isn't an issue. Tell me anything less then that and I'll ignore the rest of your posts because it would be a lie. Now give the Bruiser and Monk the same buffed (haste, DPS and DA) and the Bruiser will gain far more DPS then the Monk. We all know it. Raid parses show this and logic proves it.That was my whole point. I didn't make any comments as to who has more threat tied to a stance or who gains more STR from X buff. I simply said the proc on o-Stance closes the gap between a Bruiser and Monk and keep the Bruiser in 1st place. posting a long post giving threat numbers and proc rates doesn't make what I said untrue.

Cusashorn

01-14-2009, 01:12 PM

I would like to know what they intend to do with the Middle Stance we have. I understand that the other tank classes don't get a middle balanced stance. With these changes, we either do DPS in offense, or tank in Defense. I like to tank in Balanced Stance, but these changes don't give any agro proc to it, so what point does it serve now?

Illine

01-14-2009, 01:53 PM

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo how many Bruisers sit at 150 haste self buffed? NONE. My point is with a well build group a Bruiser will be maxed haste gaining more then a Monk since a Monk doesn't gain any more on haste.Self buffed and equal gear a Bruiser will out DPS a Monk as long as power isn't an issue. Tell me anything less then that and I'll ignore the rest of your posts because it would be a lie. Now give the Bruiser and Monk the same buffed (haste, DPS and DA) and the Bruiser will gain far more DPS then the Monk. We all know it. Raid parses show this and logic proves it.That was my whole point. I didn't make any comments as to who has more threat tied to a stance or who gains more STR from X buff. I simply said the proc on o-Stance closes the gap between a Bruiser and Monk and keep the Bruiser in 1st place. posting a long post giving threat numbers and proc rates doesn't make what I said untrue.</blockquote>not everything is about raiding, the group setups don't always increase haste and dps and sometimes people solo.So okay, you have great haste all the time, bruiser don't. But your stances shouldn't be improved just because in raid, you don't get much benefit from haste.why do you have haste plus a damage proc higher than bruiser? in def stance, why do you have all those benefits bruisers don't?why do you loose the drain buff while we don't?and not all can be answered by "haste is useless on raid when you're self buffed at 150 haste"and I ask same thing a cusa, what will be the point of having a mid stance now? maybe it doesn't increase nor decrease hate, but can we tank with it?

Junaru

01-14-2009, 02:08 PM

<cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo how many Bruisers sit at 150 haste self buffed? NONE. My point is with a well build group a Bruiser will be maxed haste gaining more then a Monk since a Monk doesn't gain any more on haste.Self buffed and equal gear a Bruiser will out DPS a Monk as long as power isn't an issue. Tell me anything less then that and I'll ignore the rest of your posts because it would be a lie. Now give the Bruiser and Monk the same buffed (haste, DPS and DA) and the Bruiser will gain far more DPS then the Monk. We all know it. Raid parses show this and logic proves it.That was my whole point. I didn't make any comments as to who has more threat tied to a stance or who gains more STR from X buff. I simply said the proc on o-Stance closes the gap between a Bruiser and Monk and keep the Bruiser in 1st place. posting a long post giving threat numbers and proc rates doesn't make what I said untrue.</blockquote>not everything is about raiding, the group setups don't always increase haste and dps and sometimes people solo.So okay, you have great haste all the time, bruiser don't. But your stances shouldn't be improved just because in raid, you don't get much benefit from haste.why do you have haste plus a damage proc higher than bruiser? in def stance, why do you have all those benefits bruisers don't?why do you loose the drain buff while we don't?and not all can be answered by "haste is useless on raid when you're self buffed at 150 haste"and I ask same thing a cusa, what will be the point of having a mid stance now? maybe it doesn't increase nor decrease hate, but can we tank with it?</blockquote>Who is talking about raids? Being in a group with ANY class that buffs haste is a wasted buff for me. You know how many times I have done TSO instances with an Illy and had to tell him don't bother putting Rapidity on me. The last group I was in with one he put it on the Inq.It's not hard to understand. With the new proc Bruiser will still out DPS a Monk solo, group or in raids.

Xanrn

01-14-2009, 02:27 PM

Yeah sure Bruisers are the "offensive Brawler" despite having superior defensive capabilities to a Monk.10% dmg absorb, Chain Mit, 2 Tsunami abilities, 2 Self heals, 1 magic stoneskin, 1 physical stoneskin, 2 passive stoneskin procs, control immune, 3 minute mit buff, Agi self buff(which when it gets fixed means Bruisers have better innate Crit mit)vsChain Mit, 1 Tsunami, 1 Slightly less Tsunami, 1 Self Heal, 1 Magic Ward, 1 Physical stoneskin, 15% heal on hits over 35%, 2 30 second mit buffs, slightly more uncontested avoidance, huh nearly forgot Superior Risposte...I find it funny this Bruisers are the Offensive Brawler arguement comes everytime Monks get DPS love but never when Bruisers get better Defensive than Monks...Also DPS is better for auto-attack damage than Haste. I have 104% haste with no item or outside buffs, thats 1.6 delay for my weapons, I can add another 21% and hit the cap and see an improvement of 0.1 second faster...Take VP You can find 10 DPS items and no higher, the haste items are 40 haste.So no adding 90 or 40 DPS to the Bruiser Off stance is not balanced or fair.I didn't say the Bruiser stances didn't need love, I was stating DPS is not equal to Haste at all.The 47 hasted added to all Monk Stances has nothing to do with anything, we did not gain it, we have always had it. I for one have always used it in whatever stance. We have always had 47 haste in defensive, Everburning was simply folded into stances for some wierd reason.Dragon Advance have always been 10tpm, except when it was 50% last tier. Yeah the amount of hate it does has been doubled or so.IIRC Mahandle was 5tpm but damage and hate, which pretty much made them equal.

Couching

01-14-2009, 02:47 PM

<cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>not everything is about raiding, the group setups don't always increase haste and dps and sometimes people solo.</blockquote>You can get from lv 1 to lv80 in few weeks and finish all lv80 solo quests in another few weeks. Then you are forced to group for TSO instances for an year, otherwise, you have nothing to do in this game.Now, lets see how many classes have haste buff: Templar, inq, mystic, dirge, troub, zerker, illy, monk, fury.Now, you better tell me you don't group with those classes I listed above in TSO instances.In my game play experience, I got 1 or 2 or even 3 classes in TSO heroic instances all the time and no matter what class you are, no body has haste issue.Also, haste gear is everywhere. I can get 60% haste from gear. Ok, not everyone is raid geared. If you don't raid, you can get haste gear from shard merchant for at least 40% haste. There is no excuse that you can't get haste in current eq2.

Ocello

01-14-2009, 03:05 PM

To all bruisers who are complaining about the differences in stances:Monks are the offensive brawler, make no mistake about it. Go roll a monk on test and laugh at our awful AA choices.Our stances combined 3 buffs with a stance, whereas yours only combined 2 with a stance. So yes it APPEARS ours is better. - Dragon Rage was a hate proc and the counter to Manhandle. They made it a damage proc in Offensive/Mid because having a hate proc in Offensive is silly. WE DID NOT GET THIS PROC FROM NOWHERE. -Everburning is in all stances now, 46 haste. We lost the health drain, but let's be honest here, who really noticed it? It is 1% every 6 seconds. But again, WE DID NOT GET THIS HASTE FROM NOWHERE. -The stance also combined our Chakra buff, which adds STR and WIS. Funny how you don't hear monks crying because you have 145 AGI (229 in DStance), while we get 145 WIS. AGI > WIS.The proc # differences I agree on, I don't understand why they are different. But learn up on a class before you try to act like we are overpowered and you are the sad middle sister. You are the defensive brawler, we are the offensive. Problem is, the gap between your defensive skills is much wider than the offensive gains we hold. Not to mention you are the AoE brawler, which is 100 times more important for this expansion. Monks are being treated like a low-class Scout. And THAT is not fair.

Morrolan V

01-14-2009, 03:18 PM

Yeah, honestly, this is not so much about raiding as grouping. Except where our raid leader (me) falls down on the job, both our bruiser and I are almost always well into diminishing returns on both haste and DPS. Groups are a different matter. As Couching says, items with HUGE haste are easy to come by (2nd tier shard gloves have 38 haste, for example). I run 169 (120%) haste self buffed in offensive stance. If I take off all my gear, I am still at 118 (101%). Is there another class out there whose self buffs alone place them DEEP into the diminishing returns curve on an offensive buff? It seriously reduces our flexibilty in constructing groups, and hampers our damage potential in many situations.

Novusod

01-14-2009, 04:25 PM

<cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote>To all bruisers who are complaining about the differences in stances:Monks are the offensive brawler, make no mistake about it. Go roll a monk on test and laugh at our awful AA choices.Our stances combined 3 buffs with a stance, whereas yours only combined 2 with a stance. So yes it APPEARS ours is better. - Dragon Rage was a hate proc and the counter to Manhandle. They made it a damage proc in Offensive/Mid because having a hate proc in Offensive is silly. WE DID NOT GET THIS PROC FROM NOWHERE. -Everburning is in all stances now, 46 haste. We lost the health drain, but let's be honest here, who really noticed it? It is 1% every 6 seconds. But again, WE DID NOT GET THIS HASTE FROM NOWHERE. -The stance also combined our Chakra buff, which adds STR and WIS. Funny how you don't hear monks crying because you have 145 AGI (229 in DStance), while we get 145 WIS. AGI > WIS.The proc # differences I agree on, I don't understand why they are different. But learn up on a class before you try to act like we are overpowered and you are the sad middle sister. You are the defensive brawler, we are the offensive. Problem is, the gap between your defensive skills is much wider than the offensive gains we hold. Not to mention you are the AoE brawler, which is 100 times more important for this expansion. Monks are being treated like a low-class Scout. And THAT is not fair.</blockquote>Seriously you have no idea what you are talking about if you think Bruisers are the "AoE Brawler." Bruisers get two AoE the same as Monks and one AA AoE that is directly shared with Monks. The bruiser is no better than monk at multi mob encounters because there is no such thing as an AoE brawler. Neither class can hold a candle to the true AoE classes SK and Beserker.

Gungo

01-14-2009, 05:23 PM

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo how many Bruisers sit at 150 haste self buffed? NONE. My point is with a well build group a Bruiser will be maxed haste gaining more then a Monk since a Monk doesn't gain any more on haste.Self buffed and equal gear a Bruiser will out DPS a Monk as long as power isn't an issue. Tell me anything less then that and I'll ignore the rest of your posts because it would be a lie. Now give the Bruiser and Monk the same buffed (haste, DPS and DA) and the Bruiser will gain far more DPS then the Monk. We all know it. Raid parses show this and logic proves it.That was my whole point. I didn't make any comments as to who has more threat tied to a stance or who gains more STR from X buff. I simply said the proc on o-Stance closes the gap between a Bruiser and Monk and keep the Bruiser in 1st place. posting a long post giving threat numbers and proc rates doesn't make what I said untrue.</blockquote>I have no doubt that a monk SELF BUFFED to 150 haste SOLO will outdps a bruiser on a ~3 min parse on say the training wall. You completely undervalue haste. Bruisers do however spike dps higher the first ~45 secs.Even with a 40% haste item monks will outdps a bruiser in a sustained fight SELF BUFFED, right now on live. The issue of bruisers out dpsing monks happens in RAIDS where I get raid buffed to ~125-150% haste. Thus eliminating the huge haste gap then the procs bruisers have both manhandle and offensive AND the larger CA spread give bruisers an edge.Numbers don't lie and your OPINION means absolutely jack. If you want to be completely disproved in your blatant attempts at covering up how overpowering these changes are to monks compared to bruiser. Then take a bruiser and monk on the training wall on test server. Do a 3 min sustained solo parse and see monks blow bruisers away on the parse. Nothing you said was a fact or even correct its bull opinions. put up or shut up.

Gungo

01-14-2009, 05:40 PM

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not hard to understand. With the new proc Bruiser will still out DPS a Monk solo, group or in raids.</blockquote>Saying your opinion over and over again doesnt make it a fact. Its just another lie. The numbers don't lie. Go to the training wall on test. Take a bruiser and monk and test it yourself.

mr23sgte

01-14-2009, 05:58 PM

<cite>Ummudien@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah sure Bruisers are the "offensive Brawler" despite having superior defensive capabilities to a Monk.10% dmg absorb, Chain Mit, 2 Tsunami abilities, 2 Self heals, 1 magic stoneskin, 1 physical stoneskin, 2 passive stoneskin procs, control immune, 3 minute mit buff, Agi self buff(which when it gets fixed means Bruisers have better innate Crit mit)vsChain Mit, 1 Tsunami, 1 Slightly less Tsunami, 1 Self Heal, 1 Magic Ward, 1 Physical stoneskin, 15% heal on hits over 35%, 2 30 second mit buffs, slightly more uncontested avoidance, huh nearly forgot Superior Risposte...I find it funny this Bruisers are the Offensive Brawler arguement comes everytime Monks get DPS love but never when Bruisers get better Defensive than Monks...</blockquote>Yeah hit the nail on the head on that one! Monks are the worse tanks in-game. God forbid we get anything that another class doesnt have ......Oh' Defensive Brawler LOL

Junaru

01-14-2009, 06:20 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo how many Bruisers sit at 150 haste self buffed? NONE. My point is with a well build group a Bruiser will be maxed haste gaining more then a Monk since a Monk doesn't gain any more on haste.Self buffed and equal gear a Bruiser will out DPS a Monk as long as power isn't an issue. Tell me anything less then that and I'll ignore the rest of your posts because it would be a lie. Now give the Bruiser and Monk the same buffed (haste, DPS and DA) and the Bruiser will gain far more DPS then the Monk. We all know it. Raid parses show this and logic proves it.That was my whole point. I didn't make any comments as to who has more threat tied to a stance or who gains more STR from X buff. I simply said the proc on o-Stance closes the gap between a Bruiser and Monk and keep the Bruiser in 1st place. posting a long post giving threat numbers and proc rates doesn't make what I said untrue.</blockquote>I have no doubt that a monk SELF BUFFED to 150 haste SOLO will outdps a bruiser on a ~3 min parse on say the training wall. You completely undervalue haste. Bruisers do however spike dps higher the first ~45 secs.Even with a 40% haste item monks will outdps a bruiser in a sustained fight SELF BUFFED, right now on live. The issue of bruisers out dpsing monks happens in RAIDS where I get raid buffed to ~125-150% haste. Thus eliminating the huge haste gap then the procs bruisers have both manhandle and offensive AND the larger CA spread give bruisers an edge.Numbers don't lie and your OPINION means absolutely jack. If you want to be completely disproved in your blatant attempts at covering up how overpowering these changes are to monks compared to bruiser. Then take a bruiser and monk on the training wall on test server. Do a 3 min sustained solo parse and see monks blow bruisers away on the parse. Nothing you said was a fact or even correct its bull opinions. put up or shut up. </blockquote>Just wondering. How many solo fights have you done that were 3 mins long? The time between pulls lets the Bruiser catch up while there bigger, longer recast timers refresh. Over the length of an hour of soloing the same mobs a Bruiser will come out on top in DPS parse and you know it.The ONLY time a Monk will out DPS a Bruiser in a solo instance is when the Bruiser and Monk are both OOP. At that point, yes the Monk will out DPS the Bruiser due to haste.

Ocello

01-14-2009, 06:25 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote>The proc # differences I agree on, I don't understand why they are different. But learn up on a class before you try to act like we are overpowered and you are the sad middle sister. You are the defensive brawler, we are the offensive. Problem is, the gap between your defensive skills is much wider than the offensive gains we hold. Not to mention you are the AoE brawler, which is 100 times more important for this expansion. Monks are being treated like a low-class Scout. And THAT is not fair.</blockquote>Seriously you have no idea what you are talking about if you think Bruisers are the "AoE Brawler." Bruisers get two AoE the same as Monks and one AA AoE that is directly shared with Monks. The bruiser is no better than monk at multi mob encounters because there is no such thing as an AoE brawler. Neither class can hold a candle to the true AoE classes SK and Beserker.</blockquote>ORLY? Bruisers get two AoEs plus the AA aoe? Well, um, you see, monks only get one AoE and the AA. Your green taunt is on a faster reuse (and bigger on test). And also dont forget about Divide and Conquer. Slow down, do a little research, and then post. Thanks.

Gungo

01-14-2009, 06:47 PM

<cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote>The proc # differences I agree on, I don't understand why they are different. But learn up on a class before you try to act like we are overpowered and you are the sad middle sister. You are the defensive brawler, we are the offensive. Problem is, the gap between your defensive skills is much wider than the offensive gains we hold. Not to mention you are the AoE brawler, which is 100 times more important for this expansion. Monks are being treated like a low-class Scout. And THAT is not fair.</blockquote>Seriously you have no idea what you are talking about if you think Bruisers are the "AoE Brawler." Bruisers get two AoE the same as Monks and one AA AoE that is directly shared with Monks. The bruiser is no better than monk at multi mob encounters because there is no such thing as an AoE brawler. Neither class can hold a candle to the true AoE classes SK and Beserker.</blockquote>ORLY? Bruisers get two AoEs plus the AA aoe? Well, um, you see, monks only get one AoE and the AA. Your green taunt is on a faster reuse (and bigger on test). And also dont forget about Divide and Conquer. Slow down, do a little research, and then post. Thanks.</blockquote>You might need to do a little research yourself monks have 2 BLUE aoe's and a green aoe taunt. Monks also have a 10% hate siphon. which is an extremely large amount of aoe agro on a well placed class. It is also an effective agro reducer on that class. Furthermore monks have a higher hate gain %.If they end up removing your hate siphon then ill concede bruisers have higher aoe agro. Even though it is still crap compared to aoe tanks and the real issue should be complaining about how we got shafted with a 16% aoe auto atk. Instead of monks jumping in and trying to keep bruisers nerfed. And yes bruiser were nerfed in dps. We lost manhandle proc in offensive and mid stance. we lost dps like all tanks in defensive and our manhandle proc in defensive was nerfed from a 5ppm to a 1.8ppm for reduced damage. Effectively reducing our dps in all 3 stances. While every other tank class had increased dps in offensive, including shadowknights and monks. (and mid stance in monks case)So yes every bruiser has a right to complain. Whats your issue with bruisers fixing the nerfs they recieved in this LU? Was bruisers so overpowering compared to other tanks? Were bruisers considered the best fighter class? No, bruisers were balanced with every other fighter in tso. Monks had issues.If you have problems with your class go complain about your class, but quit trying to nerf other classes because you are unhappy about your class. But there was nothing wrong with bruisers in comparison to shadowknights, guardians, zerkers, even paladins. This is not a thread to nerf the new monk proc. This is not a thread about nerfing the monks siphon. This is not a thread about nerfing monk dps/tanking. This is a thread about how the LU is nerfing bruisers dps unnecessarily while also increasing other fighters dps without an appropriate upgrade to bruisers dps in comparison.There is no reason shadowknights or zerkers or even guardians/paladins should outdps bruisers on single target mobs, while outtanking them still. Monks were used as a comparison because monks are the only ones with a mid stance, furthermore i included the guardians new offensive proc as well because it was similar.

mr23sgte

01-14-2009, 07:20 PM

Gungo

01-14-2009, 07:26 PM

<cite>Hereo@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote>The proc # differences I agree on, I don't understand why they are different. But learn up on a class before you try to act like we are overpowered and you are the sad middle sister. You are the defensive brawler, we are the offensive. Problem is, the gap between your defensive skills is much wider than the offensive gains we hold. Not to mention you are the AoE brawler, which is 100 times more important for this expansion. Monks are being treated like a low-class Scout. And THAT is not fair.</blockquote>Seriously you have no idea what you are talking about if you think Bruisers are the "AoE Brawler." Bruisers get two AoE the same as Monks and one AA AoE that is directly shared with Monks. The bruiser is no better than monk at multi mob encounters because there is no such thing as an AoE brawler. Neither class can hold a candle to the true AoE classes SK and Beserker.</blockquote>ORLY? Bruisers get two AoEs plus the AA aoe? Well, um, you see, monks only get one AoE and the AA. Your green taunt is on a faster reuse (and bigger on test). And also dont forget about Divide and Conquer. Slow down, do a little research, and then post. Thanks.</blockquote>Monks get Dragonfire as their #2 AE, but comparing the two Monk AE's vs Bruiser our damage is plain laughable + they get the D&C AA. Both Brawlers need AE aencounter help IMO, but Bruisers do have a slight edge due to:I thought Faster Recast Encounter Taunt due to AA, but that might of changed on test?2 higher damage AE'sD&C Encounter lock+ they have Drag, even though its single target it would help when tabbing same as when Monks use Peel really, but Drag has a faster recast.</blockquote>are you kidding me? Drag....I swear you are joking if you include that in aoe agro. Its 4 freaking seconds half the time of peel and adds absolutely no agro. You would be better off listing rescue as an aoe agro skill.Bone breaker should be the same damage as the monk aoe becuase it absolutely sucks for any dps/agro on live. But is going to be a decent aoe taunt after the changes.Where is the monks 10% siphon listed? That is a massive aoe agro increaser for the monk and reducer for the person it is on. Unless that gets changed it is a HUGE boost to monks aoe agro. I personally think they should let monks keep the 10% siphon. It is utility and helps monks in aoe agro as stated. As well as the extra hate gain % in defensive.My issue solely is the proc rate disparity between bruisers and every other fighter class. Well and the 16% aoe auto atk. And i wouldn't mind an 8% CA upgrade on offensive stance similar to zerkers and to offset the hate% and tuant % gains of monks in defensive, but mostly its the proc % i am [Removed for Content] at.

Lethe5683

01-14-2009, 08:11 PM

ESCO99

01-14-2009, 08:40 PM

In the Bruiser aa line whats the need for Shiftiness if the roughhouse spell is gone?

Couching

01-14-2009, 08:58 PM

Green Taunt Monk 1367-1671 8.7sec reuse with 8 point on agi line Bruiser 3191-3900 5 sec reuse with 8 point on agi line and eof treeBlue aoe (taunt values only) Monk 1330-1625 Bruiser 2660-3251 same reuse timer2nd Blue aoe, it didn't have hate, just damages. Monk is about 1,6k total dmg in 8 sec. Bruiser is about 4k damage.For comparison, 9% hate transfer (monk) vs 16% hate gain and 5% dehate (bruiser), in group instances, I like 16% hate gain and 5% dehate more. The reason is simple. It works on whole group/raid rather than on single player. When you have more than 1 good aoe dpsers, bruiser buff works on every aoe dpser in the group. Not to say, the worst group for tank keep agro is having single target dpser and aoe dpsers at same time. For monk, we are screwed. If we give our 9% hate trasnfer on aoe dpser, we will have hard time on single target, vice vesa. For bruiser, 16% hate gain works on every target, no matter aoe or single targets and 5% dehate works on every dpser, no matter you are single or aoe dpser.Considering with encounter taunt and blue aoe CAs, bruiser is better in aoe agro in most group setup.

Gungo

01-14-2009, 09:55 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Green Taunt Monk 1367-1671 8.7sec reuse with 8 point on agi line Bruiser 3191-3900 5 sec reuse with 8 point on agi line and eof treeBlue aoe (taunt values only) Monk 1330-1625 Bruiser 2660-3251 same reuse timer2nd Blue aoe, it didn't have hate, just damages. Monk is about 1,6k total dmg in 8 sec. Bruiser is about 4k damage.For comparison, 9% hate transfer (monk) vs 16% hate gain and 5% dehate (bruiser), in group instances, I like 16% hate gain and 5% dehate more. The reason is simple. It works on whole group/raid rather than on single player. When you have more than 1 good aoe dpsers, bruiser buff works on every aoe dpser in the group. Not to say, the worst group for tank keep agro is having single target dpser and aoe dpsers at same time. For monk, we are screwed. If we give our 9% hate trasnfer on aoe dpser, we will have hard time on single target, vice vesa. For bruiser, 16% hate gain works on every target, no matter aoe or single targets and 5% dehate works on every dpser, no matter you are single or aoe dpser.Considering with encounter taunt and blue aoe CAs, bruiser is better in aoe agro in most group setup.</blockquote>First is not 16% hate gain its 16% taunt amount which is our raid wide and compares to your casting speed raidwide. regardless lets include it in the agro debate. Again monks can not cherry pick which agro tools they want to compare when comparing all the bruisers agro tools. Your missing alot of monk abilities.Look at your defensive stance since this is a threat debate and compare it to bruisers.Monks have 12.8% vs bruisers 8% hate gain. That is a 4.8% hate gain over a bruiser.Monks have 8% to taunt amount on defensive stance, bruisers have nothing. We do have 16% on the raidwide.So monks have 4.8% more hate gain and 10% siphon vs a bruisers 8% taunt amount and 5% deagro. This does not include the fact that monks arts are on a much faster reuse and casting speed. finally monks defensive hate proc is effectively 12k hate vs a bruisers 3.5k threat per minSo your complaint about bruisers taunt amount and hate gain hold no water. Btw a 10% siphon is effectivly a 10% deagro for the person the siphon is on.Personally i would rather have the 10% siphon on a single target ~5% hate gain and 12k threat per second vs 8% taunt amount and 5% deagro and 3.5k threat per second. But so would everyone else in the game hence why SOE is removing all siphons in game except the monks siphon because its very OVERPOWERED. And seriously did you just say you will loose single target agro if you put it on an aoe class. You act as if the siphon is even needed to hold single target agro and we both know its not.I will give 1 piece of advice for people looking at our aa's in this whinefest. The taunt/crit AA in the int line is incredibly, incredibly strong for holding agro.

Orthureon

01-14-2009, 10:30 PM

Hmm turning into a class vs. class war. I never intended that. I simply wanted a DPS mod added to the Bruisers offensive stance ONLY, hell make it half of the Monks Haste. I mean Monks got a the same damage proc as us with a higher PPM. Just seems odd. I don't see why Monks would be mad if we got something similar to them, I mean you just got our buff lol. Sure we get basically the same thing as Tsunami with AA but that is at minimum 181 points. As for the mythical if you are not in a raid guild you can kiss that concept goodbye.As for tanking, you need massive AA and/or your mythical to compare them. Without either Bruisers fall behind. And DPS difference is only higher if the Bruiser has ALL CAs up.I duo with a Monk friend same level nearly the same Brawler spec etc. I also have a Monk the same level as my Bruiser so. This is not being biased.

Jetfist

01-15-2009, 12:58 AM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm turning into a class vs. class war. I never intended that. I simply wanted a DPS mod added to the Bruisers offensive stance ONLY, hell make it half of the Monks Haste. I mean Monks got a the same damage proc as us with a higher PPM. Just seems odd. I don't see why Monks would be mad if we got something similar to them, I mean you just got our buff lol. Sure we get basically the same thing as Tsunami with AA but that is at minimum 181 points. As for the mythical if you are not in a raid guild you can kiss that concept goodbye.As for tanking, you need massive AA and/or your mythical to compare them. Without either Bruisers fall behind. And DPS difference is only higher if the Bruiser has ALL CAs up.I duo with a Monk friend same level nearly the same Brawler spec etc. I also have a Monk the same level as my Bruiser so. This is not being biased.</blockquote>The same gears?... All full masters? or all full ad3?.... The same skill?.... the same ping? Correct me if i'm wrong

Junaru

01-15-2009, 11:59 AM

For the record DragonFire is NOT a true AoE. It's a frontal only.And again the reason for the added proc on the Monk stance is to bring them close to Bruiser DPS. If they put a DPS buff on the Bruiser stance it puts the Bruiser ahead again.

Illine

01-15-2009, 12:54 PM

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>For the record DragonFire is NOT a true AoE. It's a frontal only.And again the reason for the added proc on the Monk stance is to bring them close to Bruiser DPS. If they put a DPS buff on the Bruiser stance it puts the Bruiser ahead again.</blockquote>then fine if you have a dps increase. people say that the bruiser dps is lowered, that's the subject of the thread. Why is the bruiser dps being nerf?then, are brawlers' dps superior than other tanks' dps and what about their survivability?In a way I think it's kind of sad, the 6 tanks look more and more alike.With my bruiser I didn't mind a bit less survivability if I had dps to compensate. When I started the game, I though brawlers were tanks that could take the place of a dps classes if there was already a plate tank. A bit like swash being able to tank if there was no fighter.Now it looks you better take a zerk as dps than a brawler.sometimes I wonder if the only bonus we have is that mastercrafted leather is cheaper than metal <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Couching

01-15-2009, 01:26 PM

<cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>For the record DragonFire is NOT a true AoE. It's a frontal only.And again the reason for the added proc on the Monk stance is to bring them close to Bruiser DPS. If they put a DPS buff on the Bruiser stance it puts the Bruiser ahead again.</blockquote>then fine if you have a dps increase. people say that the bruiser dps is lowered, that's the subject of the thread. Why is the bruiser dps being nerf?</blockquote>Because your dps is not lowered in offensive stance. The proc rate is from 2.0ppm to 2.4ppm on test server.In defensive stance, every fighter dps is lowered. We have to keep agro by taunt rather than dps in defensive stance.

Junaru

01-15-2009, 01:32 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>For the record DragonFire is NOT a true AoE. It's a frontal only.And again the reason for the added proc on the Monk stance is to bring them close to Bruiser DPS. If they put a DPS buff on the Bruiser stance it puts the Bruiser ahead again.</blockquote>then fine if you have a dps increase. people say that the bruiser dps is lowered, that's the subject of the thread. Why is the bruiser dps being nerf?</blockquote>Because your dps is not lowered in offensive stance. The proc rate is from 2.0ppm to 2.4ppm on test server.In defensive stance, every fighter dps is lowered. We have to keep agro by taunt rather than dps in defensive stance.</blockquote>Yeah I don't get what the issue is here. Short of someone saying that Monk out DPS Bruisers there isn't one. And if anyone plans to make that statement they just don't have a clue.

Novusod

01-15-2009, 03:23 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because your dps is not lowered in offensive stance. The proc rate is from 2.0ppm to 2.4ppm on test server.In defensive stance, every fighter dps is lowered. We have to keep agro by taunt rather than dps in defensive stance.</blockquote>It is incorrect to say Bruiser proc rate went from 2.0ppm to 2.4ppm because the new stance is a combo stance that includes the procs off manhandle. The combined procs from offensive stance (2.0ppm) and manhandle (4.9ppm) is 6.9ppm on live. I don't know about you but in my book going from 6.9ppm on live to 2.4ppm on test is a major Nerf. Every fighter including Monk received boosts to their offensive procs while the while bruiser procs got nerfed. That is a gross injustice and completely unfair. Every bruiser has a right and a duty to continue to raise a ruckas over this.

Couching

01-15-2009, 04:10 PM

You are right and I missed the proc from bruiser offensive.In this case, it's a nerf of bruiser dps in offensive. I have no idea why.

Junaru

01-15-2009, 04:17 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because your dps is not lowered in offensive stance. The proc rate is from 2.0ppm to 2.4ppm on test server.In defensive stance, every fighter dps is lowered. We have to keep agro by taunt rather than dps in defensive stance.</blockquote>It is incorrect to say Bruiser proc rate went from 2.0ppm to 2.4ppm because the new stance is a combo stance that includes the procs off manhandle. The combined procs from offensive stance (2.0ppm) and manhandle (4.9ppm) is 6.9ppm on live. I don't know about you but in my book going from 6.9ppm on live to 2.4ppm on test is a major Nerf. Every fighter including Monk received boosts to their offensive procs while the while bruiser procs got nerfed. That is a gross injustice and completely unfair. Every bruiser has a right and a duty to continue to raise a ruckas over this.</blockquote>So ask to have the proc rate restored. Asking for a new buff doesn't seem right or smart for that matter. (not saying you were but some were asking for a DPS buff added)

Bigmik22

01-16-2009, 06:34 AM

Proc rate is one thing, another is that it used to be that the bruiser stance had a proc in exchange for the monk haste. Now the other side has a proc too (the proc rates beingwrong is another topic), so we are down by one trait...I have also noticed the monk defensive stance has at m1 8% bonus taunt amount that the bruiser stance does not, and has nothing else to compensate.I am not asking for nerfs to monks, I am asking for equal treatment - i.e. add some love to the bruiser stances in this case.

Illine

01-16-2009, 06:57 AM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are right and I missed the proc from bruiser offensive.In this case, it's a nerf of bruiser dps in offensive. I have no idea why.</blockquote>yeah we have the proc from the off stance and the proc from our hate generation buff.And I guess we lost this buff on our off stance because this is a hate buff, so it should be used only on def stance ...problem is ... when you solo you always have it on, and it sucked coz the dehate buff from our EoF tree didn't have any damage proc, so I didn't even take it.

Junaru

01-16-2009, 02:49 PM

Looks like the Bruiser procs have been adjusted. Hopefully they upped the PPM to help fix this issues and Bruisers and Monks can finslly join together and get the AoE Autoattack fixed.

Gungo

01-16-2009, 03:44 PM

This fix was messed up. He nerfed the damage on the proc to less then live but increased the proc rate so it does the same damage.He then increased the mid stance proc rate to 5.0ppm and left the damage. So now mid stance is better then offensive. I will say it again like i said it in the pm's.Make mid stance proc rate 2.8 and increase the offensive proc damage back to 900-1400 damage at 5.0ppm.Or just unnerf the damage to offensive proc and it will be better the mid stance.

Ocello

01-17-2009, 06:00 AM

Again, going to remind you guys that the monk's proc is coming straight from them merging Dragon Rage into all of our stances. The proc rate on it is insane and gave us a lot of hate. With the merge, they made it change from a taunt proc (currently in defensive) to a damage proc (now in Mid and Offensive). You bruisers are nuts to think they just magically gave this proc to us from nowhere.But I will agree that your proc RATE is screwy and needs to be fixed, no question. But should it be higher than a monk's? I can't say I agree with that. Not with your defensive skills. You are the better defensive brawler, us offensive. It was not intended that you own us at BOTH, so quit acting like you don't atm.But above all, the 16% auto attack needs to be corrected FIRST. I keep hearing they dont want us in "swashy territory" well, guess what? I'm just trying to be in "Fighter territory" as I am still a fighter, afterall.