An idea for how to make single target tanks better at single target, and multitarget better at multi

[Detor]

<p>They want to make it so paladins and guardians hold single target aggro better, and shadowknights/berserkers hold multitarget aggro better.  Unfortunately the way it turned out is because multitarget tanks can use their MUCH larger encounter taunts on both multitarget AND single target encounters they have the ability to generate more threat using the 2 main taunt spells than single target tanks.</p><p>Example:</p><p><span><p>Shadowknight Encounter Taunt - 3,647 - 4,457</p><p>Paladin Encounter Taunt 1,367 - 1671</p><p>Shadowknight Single Target Taunt - 2,030 - 2,482 + 900dmg (900 more threat?)</p><p>Paladin Single Target Taunt 3,249 - 3,971</p><p>Results in the following:</p></span></p><p><span><span><p>Single Target Encounter</p><p>Paladin: up to 5,642 threat</p><p>Shadowknight: up to 7,839 threat</p><p>Multitarget encounter</p><p>Paladin: up to 5,642 to one target, ONLY up to 1671 versus other targets in encounter</p><p>Shadowknight: up to 7,839 to one target, but up to 4,457 to every other mob in encounter</p><p>As you can see because of the strong encounter taunt the two taunts added together result in the multitarget tank having more threat to both the single target encounter AND the multitarget encounter.  The same situation exists for guardians and berserkers, although the exact numbers may be different for them.</p><p>You may wonder - because encounter spells can always hit single target encounters as well at full effectiveness how can they do anything to prevent this from happening?  The answer is in the shadowknight ability "Tap Arteries".  When they do an encounter taunt instead of having the ability outright increase threat to each member of the encounter by a set amount make it so the encounter taunts do this:</p><p>Duration: Instant</p><p>On termination cast "Annoy encounter" -Increase threat of encounter to caster by X amount.</p><p>Then, make it so that when a paladin/guardian taunts a multitarget encounter (say 2 mobs) increase of taunting each one for 1300-1600 it would apply a threat increase of 1k to 1.5k to both mobs in the encounter resulting in a total threat increase of 2k to 3k because when it terminates off each mob it inreased the entire threat of encounter and also results in the single target tank being able to taunt a multitarget encounter ONLY as well as the multitarget tank can taunt a single target.</p><p>Then the multitarget tanks would have the same thing on their encounter taunts, just with different numbers, so that when they taunt a multitarget encounter it's EVERY BIT as good as their encounter taunt is now, but when they taunt a single target the threat level for them to a single target is only increased by the amount a single target tank can hit an encounter. (eg their encounter taunt would result in a 1300-1600 threat increase.)</p><p><strong>In this method the multitarget tanks will be taunting single targets the exact same amount that the single target tanks are able to taunt encounters.  The single target tanks will be taunting multiple targets just as well as the multitarget now taunts single targets.  </strong></p></span></span></p>

[Lethe5683]

<p>Multi target tanks are already plenty good at aoe and decent at singles but single target tanks are only good at singles and mediocre at aoe.</p>

[Detor]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Multi target tanks are already plenty good at aoe and decent at singles but single target tanks are only good at singles and mediocre at aoe.</p></blockquote><p>That's precisely why I suggested this.  A single target tank should be able to taunt multitarget's specialty (multimob encounters) every bit as well as a multitarget can taunt the single target's specialty (eg 1 mob encounters) rather than the way it is right now where multitarget taunts add up to more than single target when fighting multiple mobs AND single mob encounters.</p>

[Rolande']

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Multi target tanks are already plenty good at aoe and decent at singles but single target tanks are only good at singles and mediocre at aoe.</p></blockquote><p> Is that you agreeing with the op? lol... because thats basically what he said already..</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Saleno@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Multi target tanks are already plenty good at aoe and decent at singles but single target tanks are only good at singles and mediocre at aoe.</p></blockquote><p> Is that you agreeing with the op? lol... because thats basically what he said already..</p></blockquote><p>Yes.</p>

[xKHONSx]

<p>Better yet since single target tanks are shafted in regards to aggro management with TSO heroic content just make the AE tanks taunts/AoEs drop them 1 hate position on the mob they are directly targetting.  I think that would be fun because then maybe they could feel the pain that single target tanks currently have in regards to holding aggro.</p><p>They decided to release an expansion that is heavily laden with multi-mob encounters and then were asinine enough to differentiate tanks into single target tanks and ae tanks at the same time.  Since single target tanks are having so much fun having their dps classes tank multi-mob encounters I think the ae tanks should join the party and have the dps in their groups tanking at least one mob in the encounter.</p>

[steelbadger]

<p>Why not just make AoE taunts taunt for different amounts against the encounter and the tank's current target?</p><p>Make zerker/SK aoe taunt something like:</p><p>Increases hate to target by 1200-1300</p><p>Increases Hate to target encounter by 3500-4000 if not primary target.</p><p>And Guard/Pally AoE taunts something like:</p><p>Increases hate to target by 3500-4000</p><p>Increases hate to target encounter by 1200-1300 if not primary target.</p><p>The numbers can obviously be fiddled with (just examples) but with the right quantities it would make Guards and Pallies the best choice for single target encounters.</p>

[forge32]

<p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why not just make AoE taunts taunt for different amounts against the encounter and the tank's current target?</p><p>Make zerker/SK aoe taunt something like:</p><p>Increases hate to target by 1200-1300</p><p>Increases Hate to target encounter by 3500-4000 if not primary target.</p><p>And Guard/Pally AoE taunts something like:</p><p>Increases hate to target by 3500-4000</p><p>Increases hate to target encounter by 1200-1300 if not primary target.</p><p>The numbers can obviously be fiddled with (just examples) but with the right quantities it would make Guards and Pallies the best choice for single target encounters.</p><p>I like this idea =).</p></blockquote>

[forge32]

<p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why not just make AoE taunts taunt for different amounts against the encounter and the tank's current target?</p><p>Make zerker/SK aoe taunt something like:</p><p>Increases hate to target by 1200-1300</p><p>Increases Hate to target encounter by 3500-4000 if not primary target.</p><p>And Guard/Pally AoE taunts something like:</p><p>Increases hate to target by 3500-4000</p><p>Increases hate to target encounter by 1200-1300 if not primary target.</p><p>The numbers can obviously be fiddled with (just examples) but with the right quantities it would make Guards and Pallies the best choice for single target encounters.</p></blockquote><p>I like this idea =).</p>

[Aule]

<p>That or just make sure that paladins and guardians have a significant survivability aspect gain that shadowknights and berserkers don't have, tower of stone comes to mind for example.</p><p>Guardian's aren't the best single target tanks currently because of hate gen on single target over multi target, but because on the hardest hitting single target mobs the guardian has abilities available to survive. Paladins and guardians should be equitable in this regard, and clearly superior to shadowknights and berserkers.</p><p>The problem will come when too much gear and aa's and such is in the game that allows sk's and berserkers to equal guardians in survivability while simultaneously bringing more hate and better buffs. This is especially likely to occur against guardians whose TSO aa's are severely lacking compared to, for example, shadowknights.</p>

[Bremer]

<p>Guardian and Paladin allready get/have massive single target taunts the AE tanks don't have so there is no need for you suggestions at all.</p>

[Raidyen]

<p><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Guardian and Paladin allready get/have massive single target taunts the AE tanks don't have so there is no need for you suggestions at all.</p></blockquote><p>Well if the gaurds and Paladins have/need these massive single target taunts that the AE tanks dont have, how exactly are the AE tanks going to hold agro on anything?</p><p>I see in the near future that tanks will no longer be called tanks, they will be called pullers, because that is all your going to be doing with these changes.</p>

[Bremer]

<p><cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Guardian and Paladin allready get/have massive single target taunts the AE tanks don't have so there is no need for you suggestions at all.</p></blockquote><p>Well if the gaurds and Paladins have/need these massive single target taunts that the AE tanks dont have, how exactly are the AE tanks going to hold agro on anything?</p></blockquote><p>At the moment I'm wondering about this myself.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why not just make AoE taunts taunt for different amounts against the encounter and the tank's current target?</p><p>Make zerker/SK aoe taunt something like:</p><p>Increases hate to target by 1200-1300</p><p>Increases Hate to target encounter by 3500-4000 if not primary target.</p><p>And Guard/Pally AoE taunts something like:</p><p>Increases hate to target by 3500-4000</p><p>Increases hate to target encounter by 1200-1300 if not primary target.</p><p>The numbers can obviously be fiddled with (just examples) but with the right quantities it would make Guards and Pallies the best choice for single target encounters.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">I think it would be better for AoE tanks to have their aoe taunts do only 25% to their current target and for single target tanks to remain the same on everything.</span></p>

[Azurro]

<p>The problem with making taunts work against off targets more for multi-target tanks then the main target is that its easy to work around by just using a MA and having the rest of the group burn down a different target then the tank is on.  Is that really SOE’s vision for this game?  To have 5 people burning down a mob while having the tank taunt a completely different one because the game mechanics require them to?  Also what is the mult-target tank suppose to do when facing a single named?  Are we headed to a point where every tank will have to have two toons and switch between them depending on the content?</p><p>The concept of Multi-target vs Single Target tanks is fundamentally flawed.  There is no way to make the system work without either making multi-target tanks to good at agro control or single target tanks to poor at it.  As it stands today the nerf bat from this update has caused a bump on the head for Brawlers, SK’s and Berserkers, a fractured skull for Gaurds, and Pally’s have been beat into a comma. </p><p>I’m not sure it really matters anymore.  The developers silence on this issue tells me that they have gone ostrich mode on us and convinced themselves the people complaining are a small percentage of whiners that will never be happy no matter what they do.  I’m trying to think of the last time a major system change that made it to test didn’t end up going live more or less intact and am having a hard time thinking of any case but someone else might be able to point on out.  You know I’m to a point where that’s fine.  It’s SOE’s game and they get to decide how it works, just likes the money I spend each month for my two accounts is mine and I get to decide how I will spend that.</p>

[Melli]

<p>As far as hate generation goes, the single target vs. multiple target tank idea needs to go away.  I'm not a tank but I can see the fundamental flaw - why bring a single target tank to ANY instance?  Since no instance is all single target or all mutliple target encounters, it would be logical to always bring a tank that can hold aggro great against encounters and well enough against a single.</p><p>If you need them to have differences, make it how they deal damage (since they aren't relying on damage to build hate) and how they buff or debuff.  Make it flavor, but in no way should it affect the fundamental purpose of a tank which is to keep the mob and take the beating.</p>

[Detor]

<p><cite>Azurro wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I’m not sure it really matters anymore.  The developers silence on this issue tells me that they have gone ostrich mode on us and convinced themselves the people complaining are a small percentage of whiners that will never be happy no matter what they do.  I’m trying to think of the last time a major system change that made it to test didn’t end up going live more or less intact and am having a hard time thinking of any case but someone else might be able to point on out. </p></blockquote><p>In answer to your second point I can't really think of any examples either.  The first point however about their silence - it isn't what you think.  They didn't "go ostrich" - it's just the main guy that did the changes went on his vacation around the same time the changes were rolled out to test.  He just got back yesterday I believe I read, and has started replying to other threads (although he has tended to avoid any comments about the state of single vs multitarget tanking).</p>