What are you going to do when it goes live?

[Kiljoi]

<p>This isnt a QQ'er or whiner thread.  I'm honestly curious to know what my fellow paladins are looking at doing if these changes in gu51 go live?</p><p>Please dont flame or be negative.  I'm just curious.  I'd like to hear from the hardcore raiders like myself and from the casual paladins etc. </p><p>What say you?</p>

[denmom]

<p>Speaking as a casual Paladin...</p><p>I'm going to continue to play the way I always have.  Offensive stance.</p><p>I'm testing on Test Copy how to hang onto the mobs.</p><p>What Jrral (Zerker) and I figure after testing together on Test Copy yesterday is we can still run in offensive stance, just have to be careful to not hit the attacks that give the dethreat shed.</p><p>I know that I can put out enough dps, average of 1600, in the offensive stance on Test Copy.  I still have Restitution and Holy Ground and Sigil of Heroism to use in offensive stance.  They aren't dethreats.  That should be enough to hold the mob while duo'd with my husband's Warden, especially since I know that Pheep cranks out more dps than the Warden.</p><p>Jrral and my Warden tested out offensive stance up in Skyfire.  Even with healing and attacks from my Warden while he was in offensive stance, he still kept aggro thru damage.</p><p>My husband will be /testcopy'ing his Warden over today, and we'll try it out to see what we can do.</p><p>This grouchy mouse refuses to let her gameplay be broken and play the way the devs want her to.</p>

[Niou]

<p>Honestly?</p><p>I'm the most equipped tank in my guild at the moment, so i'll most likely continue to off tank the few things that are single target, for everything else (AoE mob's), we'll have to let the new Zerker take those. Besides those few situations that require 2 MT's style of tanking, I guess....I'll have to try and dps /shrug, I have no other spot in the raid to offer.</p><p>Besides that, I'm already lvling my SK. If I don't care for SK at higher lvl's, I'll quit the game. Like I said in my other post, I play EQ2 for 2 reasons, always have, raiding and the Paladin Class. This change effectively ruined both for me.</p><p>Only time will tell.</p>

[Full_Metal_Mage]

<p>I chose to play a Paladin specifically for the OT role. If that's gone, so is my Paladin. I have no interest in playing an MT. If I did, I would have rolled a Guardian instead.</p>

[shadowedwolf]

<p>I still haven't got my toon copied to test yet... but from reading the notes I'll probably just solo in offensive and never group again unless there's DPS to be had...</p><p>All for each group member being responsible for thier own agro, but I think that some of these changes to all tank classes is a joke. Combiding buffs into our stances and making our offenise be a de-agro... well... I have a feeling that my friend and my zerker/defiler combo are in for a rough ride... but we'll live.</p><p>While this isn't the end of the game for me... I gotta say... if SoE keeps nerfing the classes I play... I'm done. I'm tired of seeing some classes hit hard while others seem to get better... like oh... assassins....</p>

[Tharinor Degaulle]

<p>If we get screwed when the update goes live, I'll do what I should have done a long time ago and cancel my subscription and move on, most likely.  Nothing kills your enjoyment of the game more than seeing the devs do this, and just kill your enjoyment of the game.  Playstyle changes, you can't do the things you used to do anymore that were fun, and you ask why do this 5 years after the fact?</p><p>It's a completely unnecessary update, IMO.  People liked where they were, for the most part, and were comfortable with what they were able to do.  So what if we had better aggro control with Amends + a wizard or warlock.  SKs and Bezerkers could handle AE aggro just fine, and survive just fine, while at the same time out DPSing us.  They had the things they were good at, so did we, and so did Guards.  This whole update just feels like a slap in the face to paying customers.</p>

[denmom]

<p><cite>Aingeru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still haven't got my toon copied to test yet...</p></blockquote><p>If you have Test Copy on your machine, make a new toon on Test Copy.  Then your copied over toon will be seen in Char Select.</p><p>I hadn't seen anything of Pheep on Test Copy for a few days until I read about that in another thread elsewhere.  I made a L1 to Test Copy, then camped out to Char Select.  Sure enough, there she and my Warden were.</p>

[Kalinmoor]

<p> </p><p>First thing I'm going to do is log in and a screaming  really, really, really loud. out of happiness.Then I'm going to go about my day as if nothing ever happened, because nothing will have changed for me role wise. I'll still main tank, I'll still off-tank, I'll still AoE tank. I just have to make a minor adjustment in how I do it. - frankly I hope allot of paladins quit off my server, it will drive down the price of the few masters I don't have. (not that I could not afford them as they are, I'm just cheep)</p>

[Tharinor Degaulle]

<p><cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First thing I'm going to do is log in and a screaming  really, really, really loud. out of happiness.Then I'm going to go about my day as if nothing ever happened, because nothing will have changed for me role wise. I'll still main tank, I'll still off-tank, I'll still AoE tank. I just have to make a minor adjustment in how I do it. - frankly I hope allot of paladins quit off my server, it will drive down the price of the few masters I don't have. (not that I could not afford them as they are, I'm just cheep)</p></blockquote><p>You really don't get the implications of what they've done to us do you?  How the heck are you going to tank mobs in zones like Ykeshan Outer Stronghold without any passive hate when you're dealing with 10+ mobs and lots of stifles/stuns?</p>

[Boli32]

<p>Continue as I always have done... thop I have a feeling for many situations I may be a very expensive decoration standing outside the zone... b/c as it stands right now a badly geared badly played different plate tank is our equal.</p>

[Maveric_LOL]

<p>Continue as is and see how the changes affect us. If they really turn out to be as much of a detriment as they appear to be and i can no longer do my job as OT i will have a decision to make. Retire the pally and play my swash, or quit the game.</p><p>My paladin represents the last 4 years of game play, i have poured my heart into him. The swash at this time is level 78, im not sure i can go through that long process of grinding AA, camping gear/masters etc when in my heart i would rather be playing the pally the whole time. The swash is fun, but the pally is the first toon i ever made if he goes im not sure my heart will be in the game any more.</p>

[Cyrdemac]

<p>Waiting how it turns out in the end. If it goes live like it is, I will loose my raidspot, as we have already 2 Guardians, wich are per-default-by-SoE the "better" MT, and loosing OT to someone else, as I cant do it any longer. If it will be that way, I find another game I guess.</p>

[Kalinmoor]

<p><cite>Tharinor@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First thing I'm going to do is log in and a screaming  really, really, really loud. out of happiness.Then I'm going to go about my day as if nothing ever happened, because nothing will have changed for me role wise. I'll still main tank, I'll still off-tank, I'll still AoE tank. I just have to make a minor adjustment in how I do it. - frankly I hope allot of paladins quit off my server, it will drive down the price of the few masters I don't have. (not that I could not afford them as they are, I'm just cheep)</p></blockquote><p>You really don't get the implications of what they've done to us do you?  How the heck are you going to tank mobs in zones like Ykeshan Outer Stronghold without any passive hate when you're dealing with 10+ mobs and lots of stifles/stuns?</p></blockquote><p>I get them perfectly well, I have been playing this character since the day EQ2 came out, and as it stands now on live, I can tank 10+ mobs without amends on anyone without issue. Tried it on test and it still worked out fine, no, in fact it worked out better.I play this class very differently then apparently everyone else, because everyone either thinks I am stupid or high. I'm ok with this because what I know is that this update is making my play style much, much more powerful.I will not miss amends, because it's been causing more issues then it's been fixing for me, without it, I'll be much better off in tanking both single target mobs and multiple encounters.I won't try and explain why I do what I do or how I do it, because it's a massive pain to try and convince people that I know what I'm doing, because it's so alien to their own play style. But they still leave wondering why I out parsed them by 1.2k in a raid while dying 3 times in the fight, buffing each time and changing weapons/stances frequently in worse gear.Point is, don't tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about, and I won't tell you the same.</p><p>I'm just sorry none of you see it this way.</p>

[Cakassis]

<p><cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I won't try and explain why I do what I do or how I do it, because it's a massive pain to try and convince people that I know what I'm doing, because it's so alien to their own play style. But they still leave wondering why I out parsed them by 1.2k in a raid while dying 3 times in the fight, buffing each time and changing weapons/stances frequently in worse gear.</p></blockquote><p>Barring some parses being posted, I'm going to call bull on this.</p><p>However, imagine how much DPS you could have done if your idiotic, self-defeating play style hadn't killed you three time during the fight.  Unless, of course, the person who is left wondering how you out-parsed them by 1.2k is the templar who had to rez your kerran tail.  But then, really, who brags about out-parsing a templar?</p>

[denmom]

<p><cite>Cakassis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I won't try and explain why I do what I do or how I do it, because it's a massive pain to try and convince people that I know what I'm doing, because it's so alien to their own play style. But they still leave wondering why I out parsed them by 1.2k in a raid while dying 3 times in the fight, buffing each time and changing weapons/stances frequently in worse gear.</p></blockquote><p>Barring some parses being posted, I'm going to call bull on this.</p><p>However, imagine how much DPS you could have done if your idiotic, self-defeating play style hadn't killed you three time during the fight.  Unless, of course, the person who is left wondering how you out-parsed them by 1.2k is the templar who had to rez your kerran tail.  But then, really, who brags about out-parsing a templar?</p></blockquote><p>He could have what I do on Pheep, high int gear and high spell crit chance.</p>

[Kalinmoor]

<p><cite>Cakassis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I won't try and explain why I do what I do or how I do it, because it's a massive pain to try and convince people that I know what I'm doing, because it's so alien to their own play style. But they still leave wondering why I out parsed them by 1.2k in a raid while dying 3 times in the fight, buffing each time and changing weapons/stances frequently in worse gear.</p></blockquote><p>Barring some parses being posted, I'm going to call bull on this.</p><p>However, imagine how much DPS you could have done if your idiotic, self-defeating play style hadn't killed you three time during the fight.  Unless, of course, the person who is left wondering how you out-parsed them by 1.2k is the templar who had to rez your kerran tail.  But then, really, who brags about out-parsing a templar?</p></blockquote><p>I'd be happy to record a raid for you sometime, show you how it's done and all.And for your info,  I died because I pulled agro off our fully mastered, fully fabled, mythical  guardian without amends on anyone. and the out-parsed person, was another guilds beloved paladin. (a friend perhaps? given that I don't remember doing anything to you to warrant your frankly hostile reaction.)</p><p>-</p><p>And you are indeed correct Pheep, I have, in admittedly poor gear, 50 melee crit and 80 spell crit. and when in a raid and buffed over 700 to 800 int. (as well as 1100str  600wis and 7-1000sta)add buffs for extra crit, and take into account all my AoEs are M1 and you get = tanking AoE style without amends.</p>

[denmom]

<p><cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cakassis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I won't try and explain why I do what I do or how I do it, because it's a massive pain to try and convince people that I know what I'm doing, because it's so alien to their own play style. But they still leave wondering why I out parsed them by 1.2k in a raid while dying 3 times in the fight, buffing each time and changing weapons/stances frequently in worse gear.</p></blockquote><p>Barring some parses being posted, I'm going to call bull on this.</p><p>However, imagine how much DPS you could have done if your idiotic, self-defeating play style hadn't killed you three time during the fight.  Unless, of course, the person who is left wondering how you out-parsed them by 1.2k is the templar who had to rez your kerran tail.  But then, really, who brags about out-parsing a templar?</p></blockquote><p>I'd be happy to record a raid for you sometime, show you how it's done and all.And for your info,  I died because I pulled agro off our fully mastered, fully fabled, mythical  guardian without amends on anyone. and the out-parsed person, was another guilds beloved paladin. (a friend perhaps? given that I don't remember doing anything to you to warrant your frankly hostile reaction.)</p><p>-</p><p>And you are indeed correct Pheep, I have, in admittedly poor gear, 50 melee crit and 80 spell crit. and when in a raid and buffed over 700 to 800 int. (as well as 1100str  600wis and 7-1000sta)add buffs for extra crit, and take into account all my AoEs are M1 and you get = tanking AoE style without amends.</p></blockquote><p>Heh, someone else who's done the int route. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  You can see what I did with Pheep's on her profile, just click the sig.</p><p>I've 73% spell crit chance, and use my aoes not only to keep groups (linked and non) on Pheep, but also tend to use aoes to pull aggro to me when something gets away or adds.  I use Consecration to pull single unlinked mobs, just set it off and run thru as many as my husband's Warden can heal me thru.</p><p>That's what confuses me at times when it's said that Paladins are single target tanks only and can't manage groups.  I do so, but not easily.  I have to maintain constant aoe's against unlinked mobs, but I can do it.</p><p>This is why I'm so against how offensive stance is.  And I read now how some are against the dps that tanks can produce.  <em><strong>Why</strong></em> should it matter so much?  Just means the mob dies faster.</p><p>I have a Paladin, Zerker, Monk...Paladin is what I MT with the most, usually in offensive stance with defensive when the going gets tough or am in an instance.  The Zerker and Monk I was leveling up as dps OTs.  The changes now with the taunts in OT will just make this harder.  How can I grab the add that repops or wanders over when in offensive?  It'll have to be done with attacks since taunts dethreat.  Sure, could always be in defensive stance already but that negates why my Zerker or Monk was there in the first place.  We tend to use Zerkers and Monks as extra dps when we're short a scout or mage in our usual grouping.</p><p>/sigh   I really am trying to keep a good attitude about all this, learning to adjust and trying to get changes made, but it's been very wearing this weekend while waiting for Monday and hopefully some more news on what's going on.</p><p>Yah, it's a game, but when you put a lot into a character, one that you love, for 5 yrs (I've been here since launch), it gets very depressing when overwhelming sweeps to fundamentals of all classes happen.</p>

[Boli32]

<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/32697-parse-thread.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/3...rse-thread.html</a></p><p>Paladins *can* parse highly... tho most of those tend to be in full offensive gear and very little actual tanking involved... when I tank I tend to average aroudn 4-5k or so in my tanking gear... SoH or other easy trash none withstanding (when I can tank with a buckler and not have to worry about dieing; but trust mne in my full tanking gear I do half the dps of the other guild tanks (zerker, guardian, brusier) whilst tanking</p>

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p><cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cakassis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I won't try and explain why I do what I do or how I do it, because it's a massive pain to try and convince people that I know what I'm doing, because it's so alien to their own play style. But they still leave wondering why I out parsed them by 1.2k in a raid while dying 3 times in the fight, buffing each time and changing weapons/stances frequently in worse gear.</p></blockquote><p>Barring some parses being posted, I'm going to call bull on this.</p><p>However, imagine how much DPS you could have done if your idiotic, self-defeating play style hadn't killed you three time during the fight.  Unless, of course, the person who is left wondering how you out-parsed them by 1.2k is the templar who had to rez your kerran tail.  But then, really, who brags about out-parsing a templar?</p></blockquote><p>I'd be happy to record a raid for you sometime, show you how it's done and all.And for your info,  I died because I pulled agro off our fully mastered, fully fabled, mythical  guardian without amends on anyone. and the out-parsed person, was another guilds beloved paladin. (a friend perhaps? given that I don't remember doing anything to you to warrant your frankly hostile reaction.)</p><p>-</p><p>And you are indeed correct Pheep, I have, in admittedly poor gear, 50 melee crit and 80 spell crit. and when in a raid and buffed over 700 to 800 int. (as well as 1100str  600wis and 7-1000sta)add buffs for extra crit, and take into account all my AoEs are M1 and you get = tanking AoE style without amends.</p></blockquote><p>Any paladin can snag aggro from a guardian without amends.. Doing so with pure dps though is highly questionable.. cause I dont see u do more than 4k tops in a t4 RoK or TSO raid with your current gear... unless of course your group also had dirge/troub and possibly illu, add in inq and fury and all put buffs on you...</p><p>My guess is you probably clicked on one of your position aggros or HG by mistake hence got the aggro right away. Or he was tanking with Hate ring(forgot name) and lost hate due to that, or momenterily taken out of action for a brief time..</p><p>If your tank had a dirge, assassin, coercer and 2 healers he should easily parse 7k+.. if not more..</p><p>You were clearly in that raid for dps situation.. not OT, not MT.. If your gonna MT/OT u gonna run into some issues.. as MT u wanna try to heal/ward yourself often to relieve some of the dmg u take over a guardian. Doing so on test causes u to loose aggro. If you get stunned/stiffled, you have no passive hate to keep hate on you, and if u OT u have to be in defensive the whole fight to make sure your high on hate list.. doing so will make u parse like sh*t.</p><p>Myself.. I will try to cope.. doing what I have, learn to play the class again to the full extent of the limited tools we now will have.. But I think I will spend more and more time gearing up my Wizard.. 77 soon.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<p>When it goes live?    I'm going to play my templar and Ilusionist.  Some other mug can tank - SK probably as my guild has a plauge of them.  Their are no paladin mains in my guild, nor any liklehood of getting one now /shrug.</p><p>My paladin is an alt, who will no longer be able to tank heroic zones with fabled out dps guildmates.  I've parsed hate on test - my 4.6k tps*, ain't going to do much against my friends whose DPS can easily surpass that.</p> <p>*Actual measured threat using ACT, solo, but then again it won't go up so much grouped, especially against group mobs or mobs that stun/stifle or knockback  (I don't say daze as autoattack is now only about 20% of my dps/tps in defensive stance).</p>

[Anurra]

<p>I am probably going to try it out in some easy TSO instances and after that, shelf it and play my brigand full time. I actually had nightmares of tanking with the new changes. The healer kept on getting plowed and my assassin friend was dead more than alive. Haha, SoE is causing me mental duress! Time to call the lawyers! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Kordran]

<p>On second thought, I imagine someone would get their knickers in a twist over my joke. Into the dustbin it goes...</p>

[Zapat]

<p><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">im going to give it a shot and see wassup.... however if i dont dig the changes, and it totally screws up my MT abilities (as it is im MT %100 of the time) then im gonna betray to SK so i can maintain a higher DPS in Def-Stance and be able to still maintain DPS aggro... but since i've been a Pally since day one, if i dont care to much of the play style of the SK... then im leaving the game.  peace.</span></p>

[Kiljoi]

<p>Many thx for the responses.  I definately fit in with the majority on this. Malcontent for GU51.</p><p>Myself... I'm really looking into betraying (which completely feels wrong in every way).  However, these changes make playing a Paladin (as it is now on test) a COMPLETELY different class sooooo... why not betray and learn how to succeed at (what will soon become) a better tank anyways.  <strong>Dont get me wrong... I'm gonna work on making the most of these changes first before I do anything and see if they make it live in the first place! Betrayal is the last resort at salvaging a fun gaming experience while raiding.</strong></p><p>I'm going to betray a toon on test because the thought of betraying is something I do not take lightly... neither do my guildmates.</p><p>The Paladin is the only class I have truly enjoyed to the point of staying subscribed for so long and gaming for hours on end even if its just to help others with little or no reward for myself.  I just hope that betraying doesnt leave me unentertained and I end up cancelling anyways... who stays subscribed to a game they dont enjoy? </p><p>A huge thank you to all the paladins that are like myself posting and using /feedback in the interest of all Paladins.</p><p>ON a sidenote.... Why the HELL would they do this? lol Anyone have any ideas on why they would do something like this at this time?  The only reason I can see at all is... "hey wow is doing so well, lets go in that direction"  Someone over there must think this will boost the number of paying subs.  Its about money in the end is it not?</p><p><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></strong></span></em></p><p><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">GU51 will do more harm than good.</span></strong></span></em></p>

[denmom]

<p><cite>Kiljoi@Blackburrow wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Many thx for the responses.  I definately fit in with the majority on this. Malcontent for GU51.</p><p>Myself... I'm really looking into betraying (which completely feels wrong in every way).  However, these changes make playing a Paladin (as it is now on test) a COMPLETELY different class sooooo... why not betray and learn how to succeed at (what will soon become) a better tank anyways.  <strong>Dont get me wrong... I'm gonna work on making the most of these changes first before I do anything and see if they make it live in the first place! Betrayal is the last resort at salvaging a fun gaming experience while raiding.</strong></p><p>I'm going to betray a toon on test because the thought of betraying is something I do not take lightly... neither do my guildmates.</p><p>The Paladin is the only class I have truly enjoyed to the point of staying subscribed for so long and gaming for hours on end even if its just to help others with little or no reward for myself.  I just hope that betraying doesnt leave me unentertained and I end up cancelling anyways... who stays subscribed to a game they dont enjoy? </p><p>A huge thank you to all the paladins that are like myself posting and using /feedback in the interest of all Paladins.</p><p>ON a sidenote.... Why the HELL would they do this? lol Anyone have any ideas on why they would do something like this at this time?  The only reason I can see at all is... "hey wow is doing so well, lets go in that direction"  Someone over there must think this will boost the number of paying subs.  Its about money in the end is it not?</p><p><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></strong></span></em></p><p><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">GU51 will do more harm than good.</span></strong></span></em></p></blockquote><p>Agreed...I'm to the point now, after the weekend, of feeling like my fighters are dying a slow death and come GU51 will be no more.  I love my mouse Paladin, Pheep was my <em><strong>first</strong></em> toon!  I made her on AB at launch, it just says Feb 2006 because of the transfer to Unrest server.  I've been thru <em><strong>much</strong></em> with her, was looking forward to playing her thru upper level content...I finally get there and now this. >_<</p><p>As for the why of these changes, the following is what I found from Aeralik.</p><p>-----------------------------------------------</p><p>Aeralik,11/30/2008</p><p><span >The focus of part 2 is looking at the different ways players gain ( or lose ) hate and putting more emphasis on player responsibility.   You will likely see the numbers scale up on taunts a lot and hopefully fighters will start to look more at their threat per second while tanking and less so on the raw dps output we see now. </span></p><p>----------------------------</p><p>12/05/2008</p><p><span ><p>Keep in mind we are looking into changing all hate transfer and siphon skills.  So this isnt just paladin amends, its assassin and swashbuckler hate transfers as well.  The amends line will remain powerful but our goal here is to put more emphasis on the tank gaining aggro themselves and less on other people supplying them the hate for free as things have been done in the past.  Some special cases transfer and siphon skills will remain but for the most part things will change to emphasize the player controlling their own hate.</p><p>Just keep in mind the changes in part 2 are fairly broad and hate transfers are just one small aspect of the overall changes.</p><p>---------------------------</p></span></p><p>12/14/2008</p><p><span >With the changes offensive and defensive stances become more meaningful.  You will want to use offensive stance if you are in a dps mode and switch to defensive stance when you expect to tank.  We are also combining some of the fighter self buffs so that they are used in the correct combinations they were meant to be used rather than say a guardian running offensive stance while still having the bonuses of hold the line up.</span></p><p>----------------------------</p><p>12/17/2008</p><p><span >The gu51 changes are going to make you choose a stance based on what you expect to be doing.  If you want to be high on the hate list so you can pick up aggro quickly then using defensive stance and riding just below 100% on the threat meter is probably better than using offensive stance.  Offensive stance is more for soloing or plowing through trash when you know you won't be tanking.</span></p><p>---------------------------</p><p>12/25/2008</p><p><span >The reductions in the new stances are pretty minor.  It never made sense to keep reducing them linearly which in some cases made lower level stances better.  Besides in a raid or group situation someone should be debuffing defense anyways which helps to make sure everyone hits better including the tank <img src="../images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></span></p><p>---------------------------</p><p>I have to say in regards to the 12/25 comment, that tells me right there that the changes are based upon grouping and that duos/trios aren't a consideration.  I don't debuff defense on my Paladin, I don't even have a racial for it like the Half Elves and Kerra do.  I debuff divine mitigation.  My Warden partner debuffs heat and cold, and the Halfling racial decreases the dps of the mob.</p><p>/sigh</p><p>Anyhow...that's all I can find on whys.</p>

[Full_Metal_Mage]

<p><cite>Kiljoi@Blackburrow wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>ON a sidenote.... Why the HELL would they do this? lol Anyone have any ideas on why they would do something like this at this time?  The only reason I can see at all is... "hey wow is doing so well, lets go in that direction"  Someone over there must think this will boost the number of paying subs.  Its about money in the end is it not?</p><p><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></strong></span></em></p><p><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">GU51 will do more harm than good.</span></strong></span></em></p></blockquote><p>They have a game mechanics developer. If he's not messing around with game mechanics, he's out of work. And from the look of LU51, I don't think he has any marketable job skills.</p>

[Tinrae]

<p>My pally is only an alt who has duoed exclusively with my boyfriend's warlock, so this won't be game breaking for me personally. The loss of Amends might hurt us though when this GU rolls out. If it does, I won't be adverse to betraying. It's not what I <em>wanted</em> when I chose to roll the pally, but I'll do what it takes to be a decent partner. Just have to wait and see.</p>

[Kalinmoor]

<p><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cakassis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I won't try and explain why I do what I do or how I do it, because it's a massive pain to try and convince people that I know what I'm doing, because it's so alien to their own play style. But they still leave wondering why I out parsed them by 1.2k in a raid while dying 3 times in the fight, buffing each time and changing weapons/stances frequently in worse gear.</p></blockquote><p>Barring some parses being posted, I'm going to call bull on this.</p><p>However, imagine how much DPS you could have done if your idiotic, self-defeating play style hadn't killed you three time during the fight.  Unless, of course, the person who is left wondering how you out-parsed them by 1.2k is the templar who had to rez your kerran tail.  But then, really, who brags about out-parsing a templar?</p></blockquote><p>I'd be happy to record a raid for you sometime, show you how it's done and all.And for your info,  I died because I pulled agro off our fully mastered, fully fabled, mythical  guardian without amends on anyone. and the out-parsed person, was another guilds beloved paladin. (a friend perhaps? given that I don't remember doing anything to you to warrant your frankly hostile reaction.)</p><p>-</p><p>And you are indeed correct Pheep, I have, in admittedly poor gear, 50 melee crit and 80 spell crit. and when in a raid and buffed over 700 to 800 int. (as well as 1100str  600wis and 7-1000sta)add buffs for extra crit, and take into account all my AoEs are M1 and you get = tanking AoE style without amends.</p></blockquote><p>Any paladin can snag aggro from a guardian without amends.. Doing so with pure dps though is highly questionable.. cause I dont see u do more than 4k tops in a t4 RoK or TSO raid with your current gear... unless of course your group also had dirge/troub and possibly illu, add in inq and fury and all put buffs on you...</p><p>My guess is you probably clicked on one of your position aggros or HG by mistake hence got the aggro right away. Or he was tanking with Hate ring(forgot name) and lost hate due to that, or momenterily taken out of action for a brief time..</p><p>If your tank had a dirge, assassin, coercer and 2 healers he should easily parse 7k+.. if not more..</p><p>You were clearly in that raid for dps situation.. not OT, not MT.. If your gonna MT/OT u gonna run into some issues.. as MT u wanna try to heal/ward yourself often to relieve some of the dmg u take over a guardian. Doing so on test causes u to loose aggro. If you get stunned/stiffled, you have no passive hate to keep hate on you, and if u OT u have to be in defensive the whole fight to make sure your high on hate list.. doing so will make u parse like sh*t.</p><p>Myself.. I will try to cope.. doing what I have, learn to play the class again to the full extent of the limited tools we now will have.. But I think I will spend more and more time gearing up my Wizard.. 77 soon.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Quite right, the guardian in question can far out parse me given his current gear and abilities on a single mob, the incident in question was an AoE encounter, and when all 9 AoEs crit in a row, that generates ALOT of hate. and yes I am sure I did not hit Sigil or holy ground, they are both on another hotbar on the other side of the screen without hotkeys. And yes it's also true that I was in that raid as DPS, but so was the other paladin.Look guys, I am not trying to insult anyone here, and I do sympathize with those of you who's guilds think it's the end of the world for the class, I am lucky enough to be in a guild where my spot is safe, both as a tank and support, the fact of the matter is everyone needs to take a deep breath and step back for a moment, your all making a HUGE deal over  something very, very few of us have legitimately tested in full groups in current content instances and raids. wait until its live, wait a week, and if you still can't stand it after that re-roll.But the question of this thread was what will you do. and I answered it. I am going to stick with it, take a few groups into some zones, get used to the changes, and go about my life.</p>

[Troubor]

<p>Me, I'm going to just see if I can still do my job so to speak as OT.  Maybe we'll do something like trade of between me and the "official" MT on what we tank when it comes to "boss" mobs and who hits the adds, I don't know.  Maybe things will be fine, I'll just need a week or two to adapt.  If I can still function as an OT, then great.  If not..I honestly don't know what I'll do.  Guess debate if I want to semi-retire my paladin and slowly level someone else, or just finally decide it's time to call it and quit.  I will give it a couple weeks before I decide if I'm still a functional tank or nerfed so far that I just can't do it now.</p><p>Or the short answer, try to tank and pray I still can tank.</p>

[Marcusaval]

<p>I guess I am going to give it a try. I suspect I will loose my raid slot to a Zerker or SK and will be just left fiddling around the edges and if that happensI will cancel my subcription and retire. I've spent too long as a Paladin struggling to get a raid slot until ROK came along and made us useful. I have played Paladin too long to betray to SK and if i was going to role an alt I would have done it by now. I have yet to read a positive comment  about the GU51 changes as far as Paladins are concerned I am sure the developers have lost the plot or are trying to kill our class off. They are making an aweful lot of long term subcription payers very unhappy and guess what I do this for fun and if it stops being fun I am not going to do it.</p>

[Wurm]

<p>I survived the (IMO worse) Combat Revamp they made when Desert of Flame came out. I'll survive this.</p><p>/shrug</p>

[Tharinor Degaulle]

<p>He doesn't know what he's talking about, because nowhere in his post did he ever address the mechanical issue that I described.</p>

[Feydakeen]

<p>I have no RL, so basically i'm a loser.</p><p>This game is my RL, i have 5 toons at 80, two accounts, my main (pally ofc)  has done over 3930 quests, so getting another toon as main and losing all those quests is not an option.</p><p>So while many people say, it's a game get over it, it's much harder for me as this game is my life (sad i know) I have tried to find a good role for pally in raid for years, but only recently in ROK i really felt usefull and happy, I was able to be OT on OK and Druushk and Nexona and helped guild with progress in killing these...it will be hard again if we fall back to the state we were in DOF and KOS.</p><p>I will also very much miss the duoboxing as It was easy with amends on my fury, lot of small grouapge/duo people will be hard hit by these changes.</p><p>Oh well, I'll see how it goes. Best thing is i probably will still have a safe spot in my guild on raids.</p>