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Glerin

01-09-2009, 04:57 PM

Paladin Heals:Holy Aid: I would suggest that this heal is made into a ward for a slightly higher amount (1,5k-3k), to be used as a "anti spike" ability since paladins are lacking any form of anti-spike at the moment, also I would suggest adding a threat component vs current target on the heal(this would also work if you toss it on another tank - it would increase their threat vs current target, not yours)Prayer of Amelioration: Make this into a group ward, Double the amount on the heal on it and add a threat component vs current target / target encounter when casted, or make it a blue taunt like the Cure Spells AA that paladins getSacrament of Bayle: should be made into a massive self-ward, something like 5-12k ward instead of its current weak heal.Holy Touch:Make this into a % based heal like the monks Mend ability, also remove power cost, also get rid of upgrading it from this point and just leave it at this tier, with a 60-80% of max health healed.Redemption / Amends line:Either merge this with the paladin defensive stance line, make it a very large threat amount when hit (something like 4-6k 65% chance vs current target) to keep it in line with the original idea of it - passive threat while we're wasting time casting heals to compensate our lack of survivability, or make this a toggle on / off ability that puts taunts on all of our heals (major taunts, not something weak here)Faith Strike:Remove the damage component on it, double the heal, and add a 4-6k taunt on itCastigation:Make this ability able to cure curse.Cure Spells (EoF AA):Make this ability able to cure curse, or add a ward component on it instead of blue ae threatI feel that all those changes would go with the paladin being hybrid healers / tanks and would work well with how offensive / defensive stances work now, it also address the key issues as to why paladins would be unwanted for raids now, with these we'd bring alot better heals (but not as good as healers), it'd for sure improve our threat while healing ourselves compared to how it currently works (lack of passive threat while healing), ofcourse numbers can be tweaked and changed, but i hope you get the ideaStances:Defensive stance: Paladins are currently the only plate-tanks without a threat "when" hit proc, also the enchance: Stance II aa does NOT affect our defensive stance, only our offensive, also fully AA'ed the offensive proc is only 4.0 / min, compared to guardians 4,7 / min, granted our procs double the amount vs undead, also I would suggest changing the +str modifier on the stance into +stamina or +agility, after all this is our defensive stance, not offensive, and since we're hybrid casters to make this stance "different" from the warrior stances, keep the intelligence.Also add +parry(like the SK stance) or +shield effectiveness to the stance (10-15%, with most shields this will equate to 1-2% avoidance tops)Increase the regenative ward to 350add -10% spell damage modifierOffensive stance:Increase the INT amount to match the +str amount, this is one of the stats paladins are lacking sorely in, and it makes up a huge chunk of the dps for instances for any paladin.Increase the health gain on offensive stance to double it's current amount.General stance changes for all fighters:Defensive:Either the -0,5 dmg multiplier needs to go, or the -slashing/crushing/piercing, this goes for all fighters, having both of them is just too rough, I feel especially sorry for the berserkers on this one, but it impacts majorly on every tank (not as much on SK's as the rest though)Offensive:Remove 5% extra damage taken, or increase the dmg modifier to be in line with what defensive stance removes (ie, +0,5modifier) - only problem with this might be some people putting out way high dpsAA stuffs:Crusader:Switch places on Idolic Axe(STR line) and Hammer ground (STA Line), and up the damage on hammer ground, or add a +threat amount on hammer groundLower cast time on Legionaire's Smite (Int line) to 0,5 casting like all other single-target nukes, also increase damage and switch places with Legionaire's MercySwitch places on Higher ground(AGI) with Joust(AGI)Switch places on Aura of Leadership(WIS) and Combat Leadership(WIS)also increase damage on all these combat arts to better mirror the fac they are close to bottom in the linesPaladin:Enchance: Sacrament of Bayle: reduce recast by 100seconds, on a spell with a 90second recast as base, change this into a increase ward amount and critchance on Sacrament of Bayle by 3% / rankEnchance: Prayer add increase casting speed to this AAArch Heal: Reduce casting time to 1.00 seconds as base, also increase heal amount by 500-1200Enchance: Elixir of Resusciation add a increase range, +2meters / rankEnchance Raid Aramament: Change name to Enchance: Bayle's leadership, have it add +840 mit to bayle's leadership, and also increase reuse of beneficial spells by 5% (1% / rank)Enchance Circular smite: Add % increase to taunt value and not only damageCure Spells: Make it castable while stunned / stiffled / mezzed, remove threat value, make it a group cure with 15second recastShadow AA:Fighter:Consumate Defender: Remake into a AA that removes the -0,5 damage multiplier in defensive stanceOffensive Prowess: Remake into a AA that removes +5% physical damage taken in offensive stanceCrusader:Cavaliers Call: increase value, as it is right now, its worthless for both shadowknights and paladinsCavaliers Cry: Make it a 100% chance to resist stifle / mez effects, make it a clicky ability with 1minute recast, each point invested reduce recast by 5secondsPaladin:Holy Prayer: Change into adds a ward effect to lay on hands, 500 ward / rank, 10seconds duration(if mentioned change to LoH above is implemented if not leave as is).Stone wall: Make it block the incomming swings from current target for 15seconds and increase heal amount by 50% on all healsI would just like to point out: these are just ideas, number and figures of things are ofcourse discussable, however I feel that ever since launch, the heal-side of a paladin have been sorely lacking (no i do NOT want to become a healer, however I feel that making all our heals into wards is a step in the right direction since paladins (and shadowknights), are sorely lacking in anti spike (Divine aura just dosnt cut it), also the current form of "Stonewall" Is honestly just a waste of AA points, i got it for the title.some of these changes are just "sweet to have" (such as the changes in crusader aa - the placement of some things) and not neccessary changes, other are (in my opinion) very much needed, such as teh changes to stonewall and our heals, and the stance changes to every tank classBugs I've found this far(or others!):Enchance: Stance II in the paladin tree does not affect Defensive stance, and puts offensive stance proc rate at 4.0 / min, I'm unsure if this is the correct amount (I think the old one proced 3,7 / min with this aa maxed - however iam unsure on this)Redemption line (Amends) is a ToT(Taunt over Time) that cost a concentration slot when cast - also does not become a detaunt while defensiveHoly Ground does not become a positional detaunt while in offensive stanceBlessed Warding in shadow tree - worth 248 hp in live / on test it scales down depending on stance level, is this intended or just a unexpected bug?it also does not regenerate itself until your stance is recasted

Junaru

01-09-2009, 05:02 PM

<cite>Glerin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Redemption / Amends line:Either merge this with the paladin defensive stance line, make it a very large threat amount when hit (something like 4-6k 65% chance vs current target) to keep it in line with the original idea of it - passive threat while we're wasting time casting heals to compensate our lack of survivability, or make this a toggle on / off ability that puts taunts on all of our heals (major taunts, not something weak here)</blockquote>WOW.. I don't know much about Pally's but 4k to 6k 65% of the time you get hit seems INSANE. If Amends wasn't "easy mode" before it sure would be with that change.Geez my Monk cause increase threat of 760 50% of the time I hit. Even with my high avoidance I would take 4k to 6k 65% of the time I got hit.I think you need to rethink that before posting it.

Glerin

01-09-2009, 05:11 PM

as i said, numbers aren't neccessairy what i think it should be, however it needs to be something pretty major, since we're the only plate tank that have to absolutely stop dps in order to help our survivability, we also have the lowest dps of all, and it would be vs current target, not "any attacker" like all others, thus the higher taunt value (to indicate us as single target tanks rather then aoe), but as you said 6k is very high, but consider that we do far less dps (the gap will become even bigger with new stances i'd imagine), then other plate tanks, we'd need something major to compensate (if we go by the 1dps = 1tps, our counterpart have us beat by what? 2-3k?)also i'd like to say that doing -all- these changes wouldnt be a good idea at all.edit: and SK's get a 1k taunt whenever they are hit, to any target that hits them, with a weaksauce dmg proc(92disease dmg i think?)Edit 2: the threat could be put on a "on block" instead of each hit, would make it more in balance.

Azurro

01-09-2009, 05:22 PM

If a monk or any other tank for that matter had to spend 25% of their time casting in order to achieve their Mitigation/Avoidance then they might have a different view of how powerful their taunt proc should be. Your suggestions are overpowered but some of the ideas the dev’s should at least look at. I don’t see them adding curse to our cures since encounters have been carefully tuned around the long reuse times of those. Personally I’m not that interested in becoming the cure spammer for stun/fear/stifle encounters anyway.

Glerin

01-09-2009, 05:24 PM

im honestly more about the ideas of these then the raw numbers, hell i'd be happy with 1k-1,8k proc vs current target (stronger then the SK one - but only vs one target and not any target)

Faelgalad

01-09-2009, 05:26 PM

The Time of Low DPS for Paladin has to go now and the High DPS Paladin has to emerge!To fill the gaps of selfhealing, Aggro-Generation has to increase.Since Guardian is better on Surviveability, Paladin has to be the better DPS. I would say, 20% lower DPS then the Brawlers on Solo-Targets.

QuaiCon

01-10-2009, 07:53 AM

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Time of Low DPS for Paladin has to go now and the High DPS Paladin has to emerge!To fill the gaps of selfhealing, Aggro-Generation has to increase.Since Guardian is better on Surviveability, Paladin has to be the better DPS. I would say, 20% lower DPS then the Brawlers on Solo-Targets.</blockquote>thats an important point the devs want as as single target tanks together with guards. so we need to be better in one significant point for tanks, i personally would say give one class better aggro the other better survivability and keep dps for both about balanced.the devs decided that we are a single target tank so they have to help us by making us an equal choice to a guardian on single targets. And that target won't be reached till raidleaders see a paladin as a real option for the maintank spot in my opinnion. i allready know guards will hate us then but it was not our idea to be a single target tank class, most of us would have prefered to keep the pally class as a good aggro offtank. But as it looks now sk and bers will take these spots so our only chance is to fight for getting buffed to the point where we are in a position that makes pallies desireable for either MT or OT spot (and not the last option if noone else is available).

Antryg Mistrose

01-10-2009, 09:51 AM

This isn't changes/bugs its a wish list

Faelgalad

01-10-2009, 03:24 PM

But with some very good suggestions between <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />My first threat to threat competions on the Wall in Kunzar on Test vs. Guardian are... frightening! If this goes on live, Paladin class is obliterated by Guards. Guard has 50-100% more Threat in the ACT! Reinforcement kills us!