Changes are a Major Nerf to SK's [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Glerin

01-09-2009, 05:02 PM

1. In Defensive mode you take too long to kill and lose you mana.only reply to this i have is your doing it wrong, or soloing things not remotely ment to be soloed (such as yellow groups with tripple arrow up), I've played a average geared SK / Fully mastered, I could solo -alot- and rarely if ever ran out of power, if anything i'd just go around without a stance active2,.In offensive mode you take too much damage and your heals and drain vitae are ineffective.Same as above, drop the stance if its such a big issue, however it should not since you kill -way- faster then before3. Your AA's get hosed up since both Dark Caress and Unholy Weapon were AA's they have now been transferred to stances. BUT this does not NOW reflect how you might have assigned those AA's WHen you assigned the AA's you assigned them based on the BUFF NOT THE STANCE.These aa's still enchance said skills, this haven't affected anything (exept they might be bugged now), they still give the same, and full effect as before, so this should -not- have impacted in anyway on how you have your points allocated4. Basically there is NO FREE AA RESET to correct these problems.a Respec cost 10gold unless you do it very often.5. This has hurt both my DPS and my chances to enjoy this game as a soloer -- it might great for raids or large groups but it hurts other playstyels and DEVELOPMENT DOES NOT CARE.I agree that in general the stances hit soloers quite hard, however SK's, never had any issues to begin with, and now they shouldn't either have any in terms of soloability

Brinelan

01-09-2009, 05:04 PM

Have you tried these changes on test, or are you assuming based on what they look like on paper?

Maroger

01-09-2009, 05:15 PM

<cite>Brinelan@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Have you tried these changes on test, or are you assuming based on what they look like on paper?</blockquote>No I just tried them on test with my SK. I definitely noticed a HUGE Difference. I soloed some stuff that I soloed with ease on Live and had trouble doing on Test -- it took me much longer and my health was way down if I used offensive stance. In neither stance could I kill the mob as quickly as I used to.I always solo and used defensive stance with the 2 buffs on. I had AA in the Unholy Weapon line and now that is made OFFENSIVE Stance -- I don't like that , I would have put some AA's into DARK CARESS if it had been stance. This is why I think we should get a Free RESPEC.We lose way too must offensive skill by having the buffs merged into the stances. IT IS A MAJOR NERF.I think it is really BAD idea to roll the buffs into the stances -- I think it hurts certain playstyles needlessly.

Glerin

01-09-2009, 05:17 PM

what type of mobs are you trying to solo that you can't kill anymore? and have you tried using no stance or pop DM+offensive stance, spam all your crap out then fight the rest stance-less? Just because somethign can't be done the same way it was before it dosn't mean it can't be done

Phank

01-09-2009, 05:25 PM

Not sure if this will happen on Live, but on Test we had free respecs. I assume this is because of all of the changes and propensity for players to now change their style/spec accordingly.I didn't notice any loss in AA specs on my SK. The proc rates were still the same after rolled into the stance. I don't really see what the big deal is aside from the stance penalties being too harsh. As players have stated in the other thread... we don't need double penalties in both stances. In Offensive we are taking more dmg and are having our defense/parry lowered. In Defensive we are having out spell base lowered, our slash/crush/pierce lowered and our melee multiplier lowered. It's a bit redundant and unnecessary.

Maroger

01-09-2009, 05:39 PM

<cite>Glerin wrote:</cite><blockquote>what type of mobs are you trying to solo that you can't kill anymore? and have you tried using no stance or pop DM+offensive stance, spam all your crap out then fight the rest stance-less? Just because somethign can't be done the same way it was before it dosn't mean it can't be done</blockquote>I am testing the changes - and I am saying that the changes hurt our class.I was testing in the ICY KEEP on Easy Mode. I didn't even try Tamer Nicole but I did the the other Tried both stances and I think we loose too much in both of them.This change SHOULD NOT GO FORWARD. IT is not needed -- not wanted -- unecessary and burtful to other than raiding and large group playstyles.

Maroger

01-09-2009, 05:40 PM

<cite>Phank wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not sure if this will happen on Live, but on Test we had free respecs. I assume this is because of all of the changes and propensity for players to now change their style/spec accordingly.I didn't notice any loss in AA specs on my SK. The proc rates were still the same after rolled into the stance. I don't really see what the big deal is aside from the stance penalties being too harsh. As players have stated in the other thread... we don't need double penalties in both stances. In Offensive we are taking more dmg and are having our defense/parry lowered. In Defensive we are having out spell base lowered, our slash/crush/pierce lowered and our melee multiplier lowered. It's a bit redundant and unnecessary.</blockquote>I copied my character over and I did NOT get a free respece.I think the whole change is unnecessary and I would like to see some justification for sometthing that I don't remember anyone asking for or clamoring for.They need to learn to leave well enought alone.. If it is not broke DON'T FIX IT.

Phank

01-09-2009, 05:49 PM

The system was broke a bit. Paladins for example didn't really have to do much to hold aggro (sorry Palys but it's true.) Replying on another players Hate for your own ability to hold aggro is b.s.Looking forward, this hurts all Offtanks in the fact that they now have to either constantly switch stances on Raid to keep their Threat meter somewhere in the range where they can grab aggro if needed but not high enough that they take it from the MT. This will kill DPS and ultimately affect the raid negatively overall. Every encounter is affected by this since having multiple fighters constantly switching stances to roll with the encounter will be sluggish at best.If the MT goes down, and your OT is in threat range to pick it up if the 3rd fighters has been in Offensive stance the whole fight with their de-taunts rolling -- there is no way they can pick anything up since they will be way down on the threat meter.Add the fact that defensive stance has double penalties to keep damage down only adds to the frustration of the Offtanks. I think more than anything else the Offtanks are [Removed for Content] after these changes and will probably be raiding in NO STANCE which is brilliant Sony.

Maroger

01-09-2009, 05:53 PM

<cite>Phank wrote:</cite><blockquote>The system was broke a bit. Paladins for example didn't really have to do much to hold aggro (sorry Palys but it's true.) Replying on another players Hate for your own ability to hold aggro is b.s.Looking forward, this hurts all Offtanks in the fact that they now have to either constantly switch stances on Raid to keep their Threat meter somewhere in the range where they can grab aggro if needed but not high enough that they take it from the MT. This will kill DPS and ultimately affect the raid negatively overall. Every encounter is affected by this since having multiple fighters constantly switching stances to roll with the encounter will be sluggish at best.If the MT goes down, and your OT is in threat range to pick it up if the 3rd fighters has been in Offensive stance the whole fight with their de-taunts rolling -- there is no way they can pick anything up since they will be way down on the threat meter.Add the fact that defensive stance has double penalties to keep damage down only adds to the frustration of the Offtanks. I think more than anything else the Offtanks are [Removed for Content] after these changes and will probably be raiding in NO STANCE which is brilliant Sony.</blockquote>If they wanted to fix the aggro issue - why didn't just fix TAUNT. When I played EQ1 -- you had to spam TAUNT all the time and it worked in getting aggro.SOunds like they took a sledge hammer to something that only need a simple pair of tweezers. They need to fix TAUNT and drop the rest of their changes. They need to leave the buffs as buffs.

Zibleez

01-09-2009, 07:03 PM

If these changes allow other classes to DPS harder so long as everyone is managing threat, lost dps from MT/OT shouldn't be an issue. At least, I presume that's the idea behind it.Add a layer of complexity back to aggro control instead of just amends/dirge/xfer hate to tank - you play your cards right, your dps'ers dps more.

Maroger

01-09-2009, 07:09 PM

<cite>Zibleez wrote:</cite><blockquote>If these changes allow other classes to DPS harder so long as everyone is managing threat, lost dps from MT/OT shouldn't be an issue. At least, I presume that's the idea behind it.Add a layer of complexity back to aggro control instead of just amends/dirge/xfer hate to tank - you play your cards right, your dps'ers dps more.</blockquote>But that doesn't go for soloers - we are really hurt by these changes. I wish there was some intelligent way they could isolate changes for soloers vs changes for groups and Raids. They are different playstyles and one style is being hurt hard at the expense of anotherlThis is more and more sounding like Aeralik's version of Bush's war.

gchouin

01-09-2009, 07:34 PM

<cite>Zibleez wrote:</cite><blockquote>If these changes allow other classes to DPS harder so long as everyone is managing threat, lost dps from MT/OT shouldn't be an issue. At least, I presume that's the idea behind it.Add a layer of complexity back to aggro control instead of just amends/dirge/xfer hate to tank - you play your cards right, your dps'ers dps more.</blockquote>DPS harder?- Troub deagro took huge nerf to agro control- Dirge hate took huge nerf to agro control- Assassins and swashies can no longer dump hate to a Tank resulting in a huge nerf to agro control- Fighters must tank in defensive (losing alot of dps) huge nerf to agro controlThis was supposed to be countered with more taunting abilites aka taunts can crit, taunt procs, taunt increasers, improved defensived stances. But all those things put together do not even match up to one of the above listed nerfs. What is currently is on test is broken. Pls go to test and check it out and /feedback what u find out too.

Tandy

01-09-2009, 07:57 PM

I spent half an hour soloing in defensive and half an hour in offensive on my SK on test copy. I have as many free respecs as I wanted to play around with the changes. This was done in moors in various places...the 'newest' solo'ing area, I have tier 1 void set and fabled epic and various legendary drops so nothing really 'uber' for gear:In defensive, it WAS longer to kill a mob, but I couldl still maintain 1k DPS with no problems. For a tank holding a mob, I think thats respectable now under new system. The proc buff was STILL there, it does threat/lifetap now in defensive stance. The dmg sheild is STILL there, it does threat/damange for defensive. Also the DPS drop in defensive is countered by the huge increase to threat, making it EASIER to hold mobs by threat and NOT DPS. Everyone misses that point!In offensive, I was killing faster than before I think. The proc buff...again STILL there, doing damage and lifetap and the dmg sheild was doing damage now with no threat. I was killing solo con mobs in under 5 seconds easy. I was getting 4 or 5 of them )not linked mobs - seperate encounters) and AoE'ing them down and in no fear of dying. ANY sk that says they cant solo now either doesnt know how to play his class or is crying without testing the changes period. People need to take a breath and seriously try these changes out for yourself and stop listening to the grumpy complainers, the sky is NOT falling for SK's I promise.

Maroger

01-09-2009, 08:19 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I spent half an hour soloing in defensive and half an hour in offensive on my SK on test copy. I have as many free respecs as I wanted to play around with the changes. This was done in moors in various places...the 'newest' solo'ing area, I have tier 1 void set and fabled epic and various legendary drops so nothing really 'uber' for gear:In defensive, it WAS longer to kill a mob, but I couldl still maintain 1k DPS with no problems. For a tank holding a mob, I think thats respectable now under new system. The proc buff was STILL there, it does threat/lifetap now in defensive stance. The dmg sheild is STILL there, it does threat/damange for defensive. Also the DPS drop in defensive is countered by the huge increase to threat, making it EASIER to hold mobs by threat and NOT DPS. Everyone misses that point!In offensive, I was killing faster than before I think. The proc buff...again STILL there, doing damage and lifetap and the dmg sheild was doing damage now with no threat. I was killing solo con mobs in under 5 seconds easy. I was getting 4 or 5 of them )not linked mobs - seperate encounters) and AoE'ing them down and in no fear of dying. ANY sk that says they cant solo now either doesnt know how to play his class or is crying without testing the changes period. People need to take a breath and seriously try these changes out for yourself and stop listening to the grumpy complainers, the sky is NOT falling for SK's I promise.</blockquote>After seeing what equipment you have I would imagine you have no trouble.BUT NOT EVERYONE has your gear - and so it is wrong to reach a conclusion based on the gear you have. The more average players with less than ALL Fabled gear will be deeply hurt by this change and that is why it is a major nerf.No it doesn't affect raiders and fabled gear folks much - but you aren't the only players in the game. The rest of us pay and play too and we don't have your gear and it hurts us a lot --- but of course with your gear why should you care about how anyone else is affected. Your fine!!!!!!!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />

Tandy

01-09-2009, 08:26 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I spent half an hour soloing in defensive and half an hour in offensive on my SK on test copy. I have as many free respecs as I wanted to play around with the changes. This was done in moors in various places...the 'newest' solo'ing area, I have tier 1 void set and fabled epic and various legendary drops so nothing really 'uber' for gear:In defensive, it WAS longer to kill a mob, but I couldl still maintain 1k DPS with no problems. For a tank holding a mob, I think thats respectable now under new system. The proc buff was STILL there, it does threat/lifetap now in defensive stance. The dmg sheild is STILL there, it does threat/damange for defensive. Also the DPS drop in defensive is countered by the huge increase to threat, making it EASIER to hold mobs by threat and NOT DPS. Everyone misses that point!In offensive, I was killing faster than before I think. The proc buff...again STILL there, doing damage and lifetap and the dmg sheild was doing damage now with no threat. I was killing solo con mobs in under 5 seconds easy. I was getting 4 or 5 of them )not linked mobs - seperate encounters) and AoE'ing them down and in no fear of dying. ANY sk that says they cant solo now either doesnt know how to play his class or is crying without testing the changes period. People need to take a breath and seriously try these changes out for yourself and stop listening to the grumpy complainers, the sky is NOT falling for SK's I promise.</blockquote>After seeing what equipment you have I would imagine you have no trouble.BUT NOT EVERYONE has your gear - and so it is wrong to reach a conclusion based on the gear you have. The more average players with less than ALL Fabled gear will be deeply hurt by this change and that is why it is a major nerf.No it doesn't affect raiders and fabled gear folks much - but you aren't the only players in the game. The rest of us pay and play too and we don't have your gear and it hurts us a lot --- but of course with your gear why should you care about how anyone else is affected. Your fine!!!!!!!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Umm I have tier 1 INSTANCE void shard gear. The most causal player doing one instance every few days can get a set of that in very short time. I have one peice of fabled gear aside from fabled epic...that most every SK has these days...and that is a set of pants from a raid my defiler was that no one wanted and I took cause I didnt wanna see em muted. I have NOTHING else on my sk that the most causal player cant obtain. I do nothing on my SK besides solo and so some group instances.I am very causal on him. The sig at the bottom is my defiler....so I hope you didnt look at his gear and think it was my SK?? Cause I dont have my SK's gear linked anywhere. I even said in my orginal post what my gear was...so if you looked at fabled healer gear on my sig and didnt realize it wasnt SK gear...then I am sorry lol. Fabled healer chain gear does NOT even look like fabled plate tank gear unless all you did was see fabled tag and cry OMG!!11!!!1

Maroger

01-09-2009, 08:44 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I spent half an hour soloing in defensive and half an hour in offensive on my SK on test copy. I have as many free respecs as I wanted to play around with the changes. This was done in moors in various places...the 'newest' solo'ing area, I have tier 1 void set and fabled epic and various legendary drops so nothing really 'uber' for gear:In defensive, it WAS longer to kill a mob, but I couldl still maintain 1k DPS with no problems. For a tank holding a mob, I think thats respectable now under new system. The proc buff was STILL there, it does threat/lifetap now in defensive stance. The dmg sheild is STILL there, it does threat/damange for defensive. Also the DPS drop in defensive is countered by the huge increase to threat, making it EASIER to hold mobs by threat and NOT DPS. Everyone misses that point!In offensive, I was killing faster than before I think. The proc buff...again STILL there, doing damage and lifetap and the dmg sheild was doing damage now with no threat. I was killing solo con mobs in under 5 seconds easy. I was getting 4 or 5 of them )not linked mobs - seperate encounters) and AoE'ing them down and in no fear of dying. ANY sk that says they cant solo now either doesnt know how to play his class or is crying without testing the changes period. People need to take a breath and seriously try these changes out for yourself and stop listening to the grumpy complainers, the sky is NOT falling for SK's I promise.</blockquote>After seeing what equipment you have I would imagine you have no trouble.BUT NOT EVERYONE has your gear - and so it is wrong to reach a conclusion based on the gear you have. The more average players with less than ALL Fabled gear will be deeply hurt by this change and that is why it is a major nerf.No it doesn't affect raiders and fabled gear folks much - but you aren't the only players in the game. The rest of us pay and play too and we don't have your gear and it hurts us a lot --- but of course with your gear why should you care about how anyone else is affected. Your fine!!!!!!!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Umm I have tier 1 INSTANCE void shard gear. The most causal player doing one instance every few days can get a set of that in very short time. I have one peice of fabled gear aside from fabled epic...that most every SK has these days...and that is a set of pants from a raid my defiler was that no one wanted and I took cause I didnt wanna see em muted. I have NOTHING else on my sk that the most causal player cant obtain. I do nothing on my SK besides solo and so some group instances.I am very causal on him. The sig at the bottom is my defiler....so I hope you didnt look at his gear and think it was my SK?? Cause I dont have my SK's gear linked anywhere. I even said in my orginal post what my gear was...so if you looked at fabled healer gear on my sig and didnt realize it wasnt SK gear...then I am sorry lol. Fabled healer chain gear does NOT even look like fabled plate tank gear unless all you did was see fabled tag and cry OMG!!11!!!1</blockquote>Not everyone who plays this game is level 80. Not everyone has T1 Instance void shard gear. Not everyone, even at LEVEL 80 has the time or desire to do an Instance in a group. Not everyone wants to play in a groupMy comments about your post stand. If you solo you are being NERFED

Tandy

01-09-2009, 08:49 PM

Even at lvl 80, even if you did nothing but solo...there are quests that award legendary armor peices in near every slot. There are tons of drops to be had on broker or from named mobs that are soloable. Even the most causual player who is so anti-social they dont SPEAK to anyone else in a massivly multiplayer online game can acheive gear on par with tier 1 void shard armor (without the set bonsus of course).So please gain an ounce of prespective and dont insult anyones intelligence, including your own, please.

KNINE

01-09-2009, 09:05 PM

number of SK's i have seen play on live has shot up greatly since TSO was released, due to them having lots of changes... i don't play an SK, i'm a healer, so looking at it this way... SK's got way boosted.. maybe a touch too much and now they are cutting it back.. just the crap part of the game.. happens to most classes lol, just need to readjust I would say...

Phank

01-09-2009, 09:47 PM

All Fighters need to receive free respecs with GU51. That's obivious. Some of us may want to switch to increase Taunts, add a Rescue, or switch to a stance mastery.But I still fail to see how this is a"Major Nerf to SKs". True, our Def. stance hurts our base spell dmg, reduces melee muliplier and decreases combat skills. But do you really expect to blow everything up and tank at the same time? I think each stance has a redundant penalty for sure, but the system might just work and make tanks more responsible for their threat.I thought SKs had too much threat after TSO launched, this corrects that. For those of us in Raid that are NOT Offtank, the new Offensive stance is truly AWESOME! Picking up the mob(s) if MT/OT go down might be iffy -- we'll see how that looks later.I hope SOE chooses one or the other as far as stance penalties go: decrease melee dmg multiplier OR decrease combat skills. In offensive stance I hope they choose one of the other: increase all phy dmg by 5% OR decrease DEF and PARRY. Not both please.

Tandy

01-09-2009, 09:56 PM

I am hoping they remove the decreased skill penatly on defensive stance. I think the -10% spell dmg .5% dmg modifer for melee SHOULD be the penalty and the ability to hit mobs left alone. Before this change the -melee skills made some sense, but now with the new penalty it really doesnt need to be there, and its just overkill to have it there.But they seem to have thought things thru for the most part on a lot of stuff so hopefully on 2nd pass they remove that from all fighters and tweak a few things on others like pallys. I am happy so far though. Tanking does not mean DPS, it means holding the mobs attention, and if you are dead set on having high DPS be an assassin.

Maroger

01-09-2009, 10:23 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am hoping they remove the decreased skill penatly on defensive stance. I think the -10% spell dmg .5% dmg modifer for melee SHOULD be the penalty and the ability to hit mobs left alone. Before this change the -melee skills made some sense, but now with the new penalty it really doesnt need to be there, and its just overkill to have it there.But they seem to have thought things thru for the most part on a lot of stuff so hopefully on 2nd pass they remove that from all fighters and tweak a few things on others like pallys. I am happy so far though. Tanking does not mean DPS, it means holding the mobs attention, and if you are dead set on having high DPS be an assassin.</blockquote>If you solo you have the mob attention 100% -- no matter what stance you are in. You just want max DPS to kill him as fast as you can. You need your buffs for that -- not some penalty that gives you 5% damage for being in offensive stance. THAT IS WAY TOO MUCH if you solo.They need to remember that more than raiders play this game and they need to take everyone's play style into consideration.I would like to see them leave the buffs the way they are and make changes ONLY TO THE STANCES THEMSELVES.

Tandy

01-09-2009, 10:29 PM

just like in other thread lets get this clear.5% more dmg in practical numbers....1000 dmg hit with 5% dmg added to it = 1050 dmg500 dmg hit with 5% dmg added to it = 525 dmgI am sorry but that is just such a trivial amount I dont see it as a problem and if YOU do then thats your choice but a class that specializes in getting beat on might not be the top choice for you.

forge32

01-10-2009, 01:14 AM

This is a joke thread right?

Tandy

01-10-2009, 01:17 AM

<cite>forge32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is a joke thread right?</blockquote>One would hope lol

Ashdaren

01-10-2009, 06:04 AM

I tryed the changes on test and I feedbacked that I will never use the Defensive Stance unless I have to tank in raid where 1 person dps don't make the difference.No Stance for SK, we lose a lot of buff, but basically it is better without it.Effects kind of sucks compared to other def stance anyway.In defensive stance the damage is hit so severly that no stance easely cop up for the hate lost.And the offensive stance while nice for playing dps in a 2 tank group sucks for pvp or solo as it debuff way too hard even compared to other tank again, yes we lose 20 def/20 parry!

liveja

01-10-2009, 11:51 AM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1000 dmg hit with 5% dmg added to it = 1050 dmg500 dmg hit with 5% dmg added to it = 525 dmg</blockquote>OMG, that extra 5% is going to sooooo totally nerf soloing SKs!!! Why, they can't POSSIBLY handle that extra few points of damage per swing!!!!11!!11!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Maroger

01-10-2009, 06:09 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1000 dmg hit with 5% dmg added to it = 1050 dmg500 dmg hit with 5% dmg added to it = 525 dmg</blockquote>OMG, that extra 5% is going to sooooo totally nerf soloing SKs!!! Why, they can't POSSIBLY handle that extra few points of damage per swing!!!!11!!11!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Its more than 5% when you factor in all the other changes and nerfs to the stances -- you end up taking a lot more damage than 5% and more than you used to.I would like to us keep our buff and have no stances. I have always thought that stances were just part of the WOWifiction of this game. I prefer the way it used to be -- you built up AAs and used your weapons, buffs, spells and taunts -- you didn't get a 1 click stance LIKE WOW.

Uncaged

01-11-2009, 02:36 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1000 dmg hit with 5% dmg added to it = 1050 dmg500 dmg hit with 5% dmg added to it = 525 dmg</blockquote>OMG, that extra 5% is going to sooooo totally nerf soloing SKs!!! Why, they can't POSSIBLY handle that extra few points of damage per swing!!!!11!!11!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Its more than 5% when you factor in all the other changes and nerfs to the stances -- you end up taking a lot more damage than 5% and more than you used to.I would like to us keep our buff and have no stances. I have always thought that stances were just part of the WOWifiction of this game. I prefer the way it used to be -- you built up AAs and used your weapons, buffs, spells and taunts -- you didn't get a 1 click stance LIKE WOW.</blockquote>I will have to /agree with Maroger here. I do not play test so take it with a grain of salt. But from the numbers I am seeing we are getting serious nerfs to our stances. If they wanted to nerf our concentration buffs , fine. But to take one effectively away and nerf the stances is too much. I used to roll around in Def. stance all day long with master I of it and put aa *by my choice* into wis line to offset the penalties. Now there is no choice to spec away the penalties. Hell even before the SK revamp with TSO we could spec away our penalties.SOE this is a bit much of a nerf bat. Maybe whittle it down a little? Pretty pls???

Tandy

01-11-2009, 02:56 AM

<cite>Uncaged wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1000 dmg hit with 5% dmg added to it = 1050 dmg500 dmg hit with 5% dmg added to it = 525 dmg</blockquote>OMG, that extra 5% is going to sooooo totally nerf soloing SKs!!! Why, they can't POSSIBLY handle that extra few points of damage per swing!!!!11!!11!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Its more than 5% when you factor in all the other changes and nerfs to the stances -- you end up taking a lot more damage than 5% and more than you used to.I would like to us keep our buff and have no stances. I have always thought that stances were just part of the WOWifiction of this game. I prefer the way it used to be -- you built up AAs and used your weapons, buffs, spells and taunts -- you didn't get a 1 click stance LIKE WOW.</blockquote>I will have to /agree with Maroger here. I do not play test so take it with a grain of salt. But from the numbers I am seeing we are getting serious nerfs to our stances. If they wanted to nerf our concentration buffs , fine. But to take one effectively away and nerf the stances is too much. I used to roll around in Def. stance all day long with master I of it and put aa *by my choice* into wis line to offset the penalties. Now there is no choice to spec away the penalties. Hell even before the SK revamp with TSO we could spec away our penalties.SOE this is a bit much of a nerf bat. Maybe whittle it down a little? Pretty pls???</blockquote>From my testing..looking at ACT parses and being extra nosy with the numbers, I honestly can say it was maybe 5% more dmg taken in offensive stance. I spent half an hour in various spots in moors on the same mobs I do on live. I killed them VERY fast...and it really didnt seem too difficult at all. In fact there were times it was faster than on live.Defensive stance is for tanking...and thats the 'new tank' idea. Regardless of what anyone else things defensive is set to make you have high threat generation...not as high DPS. This is across all playstyles, solo group and raid it doesnt exclude or hurt any one style.Offensive stance is king for solo'ing. It really is a fair balanced stance for solo...if your with other people and you want the mobs attention you go defensive. If your with other people doing solo content it really shouldnt matter who takes the hit....cause lets examine the word solo....IE ALONE. if you can do it alone, bringing 2 makes it easier. A healer can solo a solo con mob just fine, a healer and a tank can solo a solo con mob with either character taking a hit if they have to. If you do harder things....you shift to defensive and become the beefy tank you SHOULD be. It really isnt a difficult thing to see, do or put in practice.Lastly...tanks in plate armor take the least amount of dmg out of all toons. If you are seriously gonna complain about 5% more dmg...which trust me is still FAR less than the dmg chain, leather and cloth toons take...its time for a serious dose of reality. They can do the same mobs and not cry about it....why cant the tanks?

Ashdaren

01-11-2009, 06:39 AM

On the Defensive stance :Look at it this way, if all tanks damage was turned into hate, then we would all do zero damage and it would somewhat be fair for all of us.But they made it so that all tank do less melee damage, expect for fighter that get nice dps buff (that alone is an issue!) and only SK get less arts damage.This is not fair and doesn't correspond to any numbers reality, sk are most of the time outparsed by other tanks, they just shine with aoe.So yes this is a real nerf and put the SK into the new dilema of being not pick as a tank because they are the worst tank dps wise in defensive stance, or because they get whacked too hard if they choose to not use any stance...

Tandy

01-11-2009, 07:27 AM

<cite>Ashdaren wrote:</cite><blockquote>On the Defensive stance :Look at it this way, if all tanks damage was turned into hate, then we would all do zero damage and it would somewhat be fair for all of us.But they made it so that all tank do less melee damage, expect for fighter that get nice dps buff (that alone is an issue!) and only SK get less arts damage.This is not fair and doesn't correspond to any numbers reality, sk are most of the time outparsed by other tanks, they just shine with aoe.So yes this is a real nerf and put the SK into the new dilema of being not pick as a tank because they are the worst tank dps wise in defensive stance, or because they get whacked too hard if they choose to not use any stance...</blockquote>Well to be fair also look at Reaver and Lucan's Leadership....between the 2 most SK's get a 10% boost to spell dmg, which the defensive stance in essence 'turns off' by having a 10% spell dmg reduction. So in essence we are the same as the other tank classes since they dont get a boost like SK's do.We have to be careful not to forget the boosts that SK's get overall, and how they are mitigated by going Defensive. No group is gonna pass up a competent tank over another competent tank unless they are just plain daft. All tanks will be able to hold solid aggro and do mediocre DPS which is in essence the goal of the revamp. We still have a few weeks of tweaks to look forward too, and when its done I think it will be balanced out.

Norrsken

01-11-2009, 08:59 AM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ashdaren wrote:</cite><blockquote>On the Defensive stance :Look at it this way, if all tanks damage was turned into hate, then we would all do zero damage and it would somewhat be fair for all of us.But they made it so that all tank do less melee damage, expect for fighter that get nice dps buff (that alone is an issue!) and only SK get less arts damage.This is not fair and doesn't correspond to any numbers reality, sk are most of the time outparsed by other tanks, they just shine with aoe.So yes this is a real nerf and put the SK into the new dilema of being not pick as a tank because they are the worst tank dps wise in defensive stance, or because they get whacked too hard if they choose to not use any stance...</blockquote>Well to be fair also look at Reaver and Lucan's Leadership....between the 2 most SK's get a 10% boost to spell dmg, which the defensive stance in essence 'turns off' by having a 10% spell dmg reduction. So in essence we are the same as the other tank classes since they dont get a boost like SK's do.We have to be careful not to forget the boosts that SK's get overall, and how they are mitigated by going Defensive. No group is gonna pass up a competent tank over another competent tank unless they are just plain daft. All tanks will be able to hold solid aggro and do mediocre DPS which is in essence the goal of the revamp. We still have a few weeks of tweaks to look forward too, and when its done I think it will be balanced out.</blockquote>But what if those buffs wree put there to begin with to make SKs on par with other tanks? Removing them without a similar penalty for other tanks puts SKs right back out of balance.

Morgis

01-11-2009, 11:47 AM

Here is how I see it, if a group wants a tank that tank will have to be in defensive stance.For an SK there will be a triple nerf to dmg output when in defensive stance. SKs lose Unholy weapon, half of their auto attack damage and 10% of their spell damage. This will force groups to prefer every other tank over an SK as our dmg will be incedibly low and all tanks will be ableto taunt and hold aggro well.There changes go way to far.

Tandy

01-11-2009, 12:05 PM

<cite>Morgis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is how I see it, if a group wants a tank that tank will have to be in defensive stance.For an SK there will be a triple nerf to dmg output when in defensive stance. SKs lose Unholy weapon, half of their auto attack damage and 10% of their spell damage. This will force groups to prefer every other tank over an SK as our dmg will be incedibly low and all tanks will be ableto taunt and hold aggro well.There changes go way to far.</blockquote>SK dmg in defensive stance is NOT that low thats the point. All tanks will lose dmg, the focus of "Tank" is on threat generation not DPS output now. Everyone who is crying about the changes keeps saying over and over how DPS will be lower....of course it will be THATS the entire point of this.

Maroger

01-11-2009, 12:33 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morgis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is how I see it, if a group wants a tank that tank will have to be in defensive stance.For an SK there will be a triple nerf to dmg output when in defensive stance. SKs lose Unholy weapon, half of their auto attack damage and 10% of their spell damage. This will force groups to prefer every other tank over an SK as our dmg will be incedibly low and all tanks will be ableto taunt and hold aggro well.There changes go way to far.</blockquote>SK dmg in defensive stance is NOT that low thats the point. All tanks will lose dmg, the focus of "Tank" is on threat generation not DPS output now. Everyone who is crying about the changes keeps saying over and over how DPS will be lower....of course it will be THATS the entire point of this.</blockquote>DPS is generated by amount of damage done and the speed at which it is done. Taunt should be used to help hold the aggro and hate ( and we don't need a bleep meter either like you would give a 10 year old)The lost of damage in defensive stance is significant if you solo -- it take twice as long and drain your mana. It is a major nerf.This game should be allowing player to customize their character to suit their playstyle -- not forcing a playstyle on them which is what this change does. This is all about raiders and players who raid who have not problem seeing every other playstyle get nerfed.It is also geared to players that raid and group and I believe it was the raider that werer whining about Hate and aggro etc. SK's have never been an MT class. Just because you wear plate does not make you a MT. Maybe they should improve the weapons the Guardians have to do more massive damage which will help hold hate and aggro. Taunt should be more effective than it currently is. They could increase the HATE and AGGRO in the AA line so that people who want to be MTs in a raid can spec themselves that way.It should be about choice - not limiting choice. And this is all about limiting choice and crippling playstyles to advantage one playstyle over another. Major change to stance is the lazy developer away of changing something - not the intelligent way to bring about a chance they want. So those who raid are cheering wildly for these changes and not caring about any other players. After all raiders think they are the most important players in the game and the game should cater to them and be designed only for them. Careful or you may find you have NO GAME.

Tandy

01-11-2009, 12:42 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morgis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is how I see it, if a group wants a tank that tank will have to be in defensive stance.For an SK there will be a triple nerf to dmg output when in defensive stance. SKs lose Unholy weapon, half of their auto attack damage and 10% of their spell damage. This will force groups to prefer every other tank over an SK as our dmg will be incedibly low and all tanks will be ableto taunt and hold aggro well.There changes go way to far.</blockquote>SK dmg in defensive stance is NOT that low thats the point. All tanks will lose dmg, the focus of "Tank" is on threat generation not DPS output now. Everyone who is crying about the changes keeps saying over and over how DPS will be lower....of course it will be THATS the entire point of this.</blockquote>DPS is generated by amount of damage done and the speed at which it is done. Taunt should be used to help hold the aggro and hate ( and we don't need a bleep meter either like you would give a 10 year old)The lost of damage in defensive stance is significant if you solo -- it take twice as long and drain your mana. It is a major nerf.This game should be allowing player to customize their character to suit their playstyle -- not forcing a playstyle on them which is what this change does. This is all about raiders and players who raid who have not problem seeing every other playstyle get nerfed.It is also geared to players that raid and group and I believe it was the raider that werer whining about Hate and aggro etc. SK's have never been an MT class. Just because you wear plate does not make you a MT. Maybe they should improve the weapons the Guardians have to do more massive damage which will help hold hate and aggro. Taunt should be more effective than it currently is. They could increase the HATE and AGGRO in the AA line so that people who want to be MTs in a raid can spec themselves that way.It should be about choice - not limiting choice. And this is all about limiting choice and crippling playstyles to advantage one playstyle over another. Major change to stance is the lazy developer away of changing something - not the intelligent way to bring about a chance they want. So those who raid are cheering wildly for these changes and not caring about any other players. After all raiders think they are the most important players in the game and the game should cater to them and be designed only for them. Careful or you may find you have NO GAME.</blockquote>for the 1,495th time....Defensive stance is not for soloing. If your basing your gripes around that...its flat out 100% wrong. Tanking is not about DPS its about threat generation now. Defensive is 100% geared for threat generation. Offensive is for soloing and DPS generation. Giving Guardians massive damage is exactly what the devs are trying to CHANGE in this update. No tank should be holding aggro based on DPS now.This is about all forms of play where a tank attracts the attention of mobs...NOT just raiding. SK's are a primary tank class...meaning they CAN keep the attention of a mob in a group setting. Please stop trying to stay this destroys choice and is all about raiders. You are upset because your idea of EXACTLY how to play your class is shifting...and online game are always in a constant state of flux. Things change in them. Its a fact that everyone learns to live thru or they stop playing em. I totally understand where you are coming from....I just wish you would take a step back and see where the issues are and why these changes have to be made. It doesnt destroy the solo play style at all, just shifts how you do it.Tank is and always will be the classes that stand in front of a group of people and take the hits. You picked a SK to solo with and now are upset they are having changes made with all the other TANK classes. If you wanted something that never tanked, scouts and mages are the choices to go with.*also to be 100% clear...I solo with my SK a good 80% of the time and group 20%. He is my fun alt to goof off with. So please understand I am totally concerned with how they solo. It is a HUGE deal to me that its fun and easy to solo one after the changes and that is were I focused my testing on the test server at.

Maroger

01-11-2009, 01:23 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morgis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is how I see it, if a group wants a tank that tank will have to be in defensive stance.For an SK there will be a triple nerf to dmg output when in defensive stance. SKs lose Unholy weapon, half of their auto attack damage and 10% of their spell damage. This will force groups to prefer every other tank over an SK as our dmg will be incedibly low and all tanks will be ableto taunt and hold aggro well.There changes go way to far.</blockquote>SK dmg in defensive stance is NOT that low thats the point. All tanks will lose dmg, the focus of "Tank" is on threat generation not DPS output now. Everyone who is crying about the changes keeps saying over and over how DPS will be lower....of course it will be THATS the entire point of this.</blockquote>DPS is generated by amount of damage done and the speed at which it is done. Taunt should be used to help hold the aggro and hate ( and we don't need a bleep meter either like you would give a 10 year old)The lost of damage in defensive stance is significant if you solo -- it take twice as long and drain your mana. It is a major nerf.This game should be allowing player to customize their character to suit their playstyle -- not forcing a playstyle on them which is what this change does. This is all about raiders and players who raid who have not problem seeing every other playstyle get nerfed.It is also geared to players that raid and group and I believe it was the raider that werer whining about Hate and aggro etc. SK's have never been an MT class. Just because you wear plate does not make you a MT. Maybe they should improve the weapons the Guardians have to do more massive damage which will help hold hate and aggro. Taunt should be more effective than it currently is. They could increase the HATE and AGGRO in the AA line so that people who want to be MTs in a raid can spec themselves that way.It should be about choice - not limiting choice. And this is all about limiting choice and crippling playstyles to advantage one playstyle over another. Major change to stance is the lazy developer away of changing something - not the intelligent way to bring about a chance they want. So those who raid are cheering wildly for these changes and not caring about any other players. After all raiders think they are the most important players in the game and the game should cater to them and be designed only for them. Careful or you may find you have NO GAME.</blockquote>for the 1,495th time....Defensive stance is not for soloing. If your basing your gripes around that...its flat out 100% wrong. Tanking is not about DPS its about threat generation now. Defensive is 100% geared for threat generation. Offensive is for soloing and DPS generation. Giving Guardians massive damage is exactly what the devs are trying to CHANGE in this update. No tank should be holding aggro based on DPS now.This is about all forms of play where a tank attracts the attention of mobs...NOT just raiding. SK's are a primary tank class...meaning they CAN keep the attention of a mob in a group setting. Please stop trying to stay this destroys choice and is all about raiders. You are upset because your idea of EXACTLY how to play your class is shifting...and online game are always in a constant state of flux. Things change in them. Its a fact that everyone learns to live thru or they stop playing em. I totally understand where you are coming from....I just wish you would take a step back and see where the issues are and why these changes have to be made. It doesnt destroy the solo play style at all, just shifts how you do it.Tank is and always will be the classes that stand in front of a group of people and take the hits. You picked a SK to solo with and now are upset they are having changes made with all the other TANK classes. If you wanted something that never tanked, scouts and mages are the choices to go with.*also to be 100% clear...I solo with my SK a good 80% of the time and group 20%. He is my fun alt to goof off with. So please understand I am totally concerned with how they solo. It is a HUGE deal to me that its fun and easy to solo one after the changes and that is were I focused my testing on the test server at.</blockquote>This is all about catering to raiders -- be honest for a change. That was the group that was whining. We have lost ALL our damage in DEFENSIVE stance. Not just a part of it ALL OF IT - that was wrong. The way they merged our buffs was wrong. The fact that they even merged them was wrong -- removing damage components in a given stance is a NERF.The buff should NOT have been merged. The can change the stances but leave the buffs as they were. And remove the 5% damage because you take a lot more than that with the changes to offensive stance. WHy should every player be forced into some stupid cookie cutter mold of what some body with a pencil who probably doesn't even play the class things would be good. They should be giving people choice of how to customize their characters. They should improve the AA line - the can fix taunt and aggro in the AA line.By they way did you ever play EQ1? I don't think you did. Hate and aggro was held by fighters thought massive damage and taunts -- their were swords that did massive damage that were fighter only weapons as they helped hold aggro and keep the mob focused on the main tank -- WHO WAS NOT AN SK. There was a lot of plate armor that was designated FIGHTER ONLY because of the stats.Here the developers think that the only way to generate hate is through eliminating choice and forcing it onto stances. I think stances are the worst thing that ever happened to MMOs -- it is part of WOW approach to games. Make the stance do what more complex design and better players should accomplish. This whole thing smacks of a lazy change by development simply because it is easier to do -- not that it is more the more intelligent way to do it.

Lethe5683

01-11-2009, 03:32 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>These changes were so poorly planned out it is difficult to think that the developers even played at an SKI.1. In Defensive mode you take too long to kill and lose you mana.2,.In offensive mode you take too much damage and your heals and drain vitae are ineffective.3. Your AA's get hosed up since both Dark Caress and Unholy Weapon were AA's they have now been transferred to stances. BUT this does not NOW reflect how you might have assigned those AA's WHen you assigned the AA's you assigned them based on the BUFF NOT THE STANCE.4. Basically there is NO FREE AA RESET to correct these problems.5. This has hurt both my DPS and my chances to enjoy this game as a soloer -- it might great for raids or large groups but it hurts other playstyels and DEVELOPMENT DOES NOT CARE.PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THESE CHANGES. They are very poorly thought out, planned and executed. They are not needed and you, development have made no effort to explains the reasons for this major NERF to some playstyles.</blockquote>um... good? Maybe now SKs will no longer be so grossly overpowered.

Maroger

01-11-2009, 05:09 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>These changes were so poorly planned out it is difficult to think that the developers even played at an SKI.1. In Defensive mode you take too long to kill and lose you mana.2,.In offensive mode you take too much damage and your heals and drain vitae are ineffective.3. Your AA's get hosed up since both Dark Caress and Unholy Weapon were AA's they have now been transferred to stances. BUT this does not NOW reflect how you might have assigned those AA's WHen you assigned the AA's you assigned them based on the BUFF NOT THE STANCE.4. Basically there is NO FREE AA RESET to correct these problems.5. This has hurt both my DPS and my chances to enjoy this game as a soloer -- it might great for raids or large groups but it hurts other playstyels and DEVELOPMENT DOES NOT CARE.PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT THESE CHANGES. They are very poorly thought out, planned and executed. They are not needed and you, development have made no effort to explains the reasons for this major NERF to some playstyles.</blockquote>um... good? Maybe now SKs will no longer be so grossly overpowered.</blockquote>I think I smell jealousy here - not thought and reason. But this is what I would expect from a mouse <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />

Tandy

01-11-2009, 05:52 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is all about catering to raiders -- be honest for a change. That was the group that was whining. We have lost ALL our damage in DEFENSIVE stance. Not just a part of it ALL OF IT - that was wrong. The way they merged our buffs was wrong. The fact that they even merged them was wrong -- removing damage components in a given stance is a NERF.The buff should NOT have been merged. The can change the stances but leave the buffs as they were. And remove the 5% damage because you take a lot more than that with the changes to offensive stance. WHy should every player be forced into some stupid cookie cutter mold of what some body with a pencil who probably doesn't even play the class things would be good. They should be giving people choice of how to customize their characters. They should improve the AA line - the can fix taunt and aggro in the AA line.By they way did you ever play EQ1? I don't think you did. Hate and aggro was held by fighters thought massive damage and taunts -- their were swords that did massive damage that were fighter only weapons as they helped hold aggro and keep the mob focused on the main tank -- WHO WAS NOT AN SK. There was a lot of plate armor that was designated FIGHTER ONLY because of the stats.Here the developers think that the only way to generate hate is through eliminating choice and forcing it onto stances. I think stances are the worst thing that ever happened to MMOs -- it is part of WOW approach to games. Make the stance do what more complex design and better players should accomplish. This whole thing smacks of a lazy change by development simply because it is easier to do -- not that it is more the more intelligent way to do it.</blockquote>If you want to be honest, be honest your upset you picked a tank for high DPS damage while having great mitigation and little fear of taking damage while dishing out high damage. You keep saying dmg in defensive is terrible, a total nerf etc etc etc. That is just not true. Either you didnt really test things out, or you are being misleading to try to make your point here, or something else I dont want to take the time to figure out. ALL TANKS LOST DMG IN DEFENSIVE. this is across the board chance. SK's didnt get singled out and nerfed. Defensive was for tanking mobs NOT high DPS. Tanks do TOO MUCH dmg while being able to take hits. Just because you have one niche set out for yourself to solo in defensive stance so you take little dmg and still dish out high DPS, and your afraid of losing that...(which by the way-high DPS and taking no dmg is WHAT they are fixing) your rabid about it.I played EQ1 back in the 'old days' before Velious and Kunark even...probably logged more hours in MMO's than I can count, so lets not get our rulers please. and news flash...this isnt EQ1 and SK's are viable tanks. k thx.

Maroger

01-11-2009, 06:54 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is all about catering to raiders -- be honest for a change. That was the group that was whining. We have lost ALL our damage in DEFENSIVE stance. Not just a part of it ALL OF IT - that was wrong. The way they merged our buffs was wrong. The fact that they even merged them was wrong -- removing damage components in a given stance is a NERF.The buff should NOT have been merged. The can change the stances but leave the buffs as they were. And remove the 5% damage because you take a lot more than that with the changes to offensive stance. WHy should every player be forced into some stupid cookie cutter mold of what some body with a pencil who probably doesn't even play the class things would be good. They should be giving people choice of how to customize their characters. They should improve the AA line - the can fix taunt and aggro in the AA line.By they way did you ever play EQ1? I don't think you did. Hate and aggro was held by fighters thought massive damage and taunts -- their were swords that did massive damage that were fighter only weapons as they helped hold aggro and keep the mob focused on the main tank -- WHO WAS NOT AN SK. There was a lot of plate armor that was designated FIGHTER ONLY because of the stats.Here the developers think that the only way to generate hate is through eliminating choice and forcing it onto stances. I think stances are the worst thing that ever happened to MMOs -- it is part of WOW approach to games. Make the stance do what more complex design and better players should accomplish. This whole thing smacks of a lazy change by development simply because it is easier to do -- not that it is more the more intelligent way to do it.</blockquote>If you want to be honest, be honest your upset you picked a tank for high DPS damage while having great mitigation and little fear of taking damage while dishing out high damage. You keep saying dmg in defensive is terrible, a total nerf etc etc etc. That is just not true. Either you didnt really test things out, or you are being misleading to try to make your point here, or something else I dont want to take the time to figure out. ALL TANKS LOST DMG IN DEFENSIVE. this is across the board chance. SK's didnt get singled out and nerfed. Defensive was for tanking mobs NOT high DPS. Tanks do TOO MUCH dmg while being able to take hits. Just because you have one niche set out for yourself to solo in defensive stance so you take little dmg and still dish out high DPS, and your afraid of losing that...(which by the way-high DPS and taking no dmg is WHAT they are fixing) your rabid about it.I played EQ1 back in the 'old days' before Velious and Kunark even...probably logged more hours in MMO's than I can count, so lets not get our rulers please. and news flash...this isnt EQ1 and SK's are viable tanks. k thx.</blockquote>The SK's were modeled on the SK in EQ1 - the problem is the developer forget what an SK is supposed to be. If you can read you will see that SK's were always supposed to be capable of impressive damage -- through a combination of spells and melee -- we were also supposed to be part Necromancer. Well they took away out skelly pet, I guess thinking no one would notice, and now they are taking away out damage -- again thinking people like you wont't notice or care.I have invested 5 years in this game and I am sick and tired of every time they get a new development team they tear the whole game apart and wreck and then have to repair while still expecting people to pay SOE.They could make all these changes via AA and improving Taunts -- leave the buffs, but if players want the buff don't let them have the stance. Thee was NO REAL NEED TO ROLL THE BUFFS INTO STANCES. That is way overboard. Total OVERKILL.

Tandy

01-11-2009, 07:05 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote><cite> </cite></blockquote>The SK's were modeled on the SK in EQ1 - the problem is the developer forget what an SK is supposed to be. If you can read you will see that SK's were always supposed to be capable of impressive damage -- through a combination of spells and melee -- we were also supposed to be part Necromancer. Well they took away out skelly pet, I guess thinking no one would notice, and now they are taking away out damage -- again thinking people like you wont't notice or care.I have invested 5 years in this game and I am sick and tired of every time they get a new development team they tear the whole game apart and wreck and then have to repair while still expecting people to pay SOE.They could make all these changes via AA and improving Taunts -- leave the buffs, but if players want the buff don't let them have the stance. Thee was NO REAL NEED TO ROLL THE BUFFS INTO STANCES. That is way overboard. Total OVERKILL.</blockquote>The SK in EQ2 (which is not EQ1) IS a tank class capable of good DPS. They have lifetaps...which are the necro component of their history. They deal disease based dmg, also from the necromancer. The 'impressive damage' is the part you got wrong. From the VERY start of launch SK's were TANK archtype. If you expected, wanted, needed or otherwise decreed you had to have a class capable for all time of having HUGE DPS then you picked WRONG. No sugar coating, no coddling. Your mistake can not somehow change the rest of the game to fit in your expectations now. Games change, dev teams change, class balances shift. MMO's are always changing. If your sick of it play single player RPG's were things DONT change.I still cant fathom why those 2 buffs are so important to you as a SK to hve them seperate from the stances. All I can come up with is that you want to keep the dmg proc buff in defensive stance...and is that 600ish dmg or so you prob get 3 times a minute worth all the stress and anger you are spewing out? If you use offensive stance you get a BETTER version of that buff than what you have without it. How is that a bad thing?

greenmantle

01-11-2009, 08:46 PM

<cite>Ashdaren wrote:</cite><blockquote>I tryed the changes on test and I feedbacked that I will never use the Defensive Stance unless I have to tank in raid where 1 person dps don't make the difference.No Stance for SK, we lose a lot of buff, but basically it is better without it.Effects kind of sucks compared to other def stance anyway.In defensive stance the damage is hit so severly that no stance easely cop up for the hate lost.And the offensive stance while nice for playing dps in a 2 tank group sucks for pvp or solo as it debuff way too hard even compared to other tank again, yes we lose 20 def/20 parry!</blockquote>Sounds like a tank i grouped with last week, the healer asked them to use defensive they said no, if the healer had been smarter they would have droped then not after 6 deaths, similar problem getting tanks to put a shield on.YOU ARE NOT DPS get over it, go play a brigand or a bruiser if you dont want to tank. Now perhaps i can find tanks for pug's that arent dps spec hanging onto their two hander like a baby on a pacifier.

Lethe5683

01-11-2009, 08:52 PM

<cite>greenmantle wrote:</cite><blockquote>YOU ARE NOT DPS get over it, go play a brigand or a bruiser if you dont want to tank.</blockquote>Bruisers are not DPS, they are tanks as well but it seems plate heads always forget that.

forge32

01-11-2009, 10:35 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is all about catering to raiders -- be honest for a change. That was the group that was whining. We have lost ALL our damage in DEFENSIVE stance. Not just a part of it ALL OF IT - that was wrong. The way they merged our buffs was wrong. The fact that they even merged them was wrong -- removing damage components in a given stance is a NERF.The buff should NOT have been merged. The can change the stances but leave the buffs as they were. And remove the 5% damage because you take a lot more than that with the changes to offensive stance. WHy should every player be forced into some stupid cookie cutter mold of what some body with a pencil who probably doesn't even play the class things would be good. They should be giving people choice of how to customize their characters. They should improve the AA line - the can fix taunt and aggro in the AA line.By they way did you ever play EQ1? I don't think you did. Hate and aggro was held by fighters thought massive damage and taunts -- their were swords that did massive damage that were fighter only weapons as they helped hold aggro and keep the mob focused on the main tank -- WHO WAS NOT AN SK. There was a lot of plate armor that was designated FIGHTER ONLY because of the stats.Here the developers think that the only way to generate hate is through eliminating choice and forcing it onto stances. I think stances are the worst thing that ever happened to MMOs -- it is part of WOW approach to games. Make the stance do what more complex design and better players should accomplish. This whole thing smacks of a lazy change by development simply because it is easier to do -- not that it is more the more intelligent way to do it.</blockquote>If you want to be honest, be honest your upset you picked a tank for high DPS damage while having great mitigation and little fear of taking damage while dishing out high damage. You keep saying dmg in defensive is terrible, a total nerf etc etc etc. That is just not true. Either you didnt really test things out, or you are being misleading to try to make your point here, or something else I dont want to take the time to figure out. ALL TANKS LOST DMG IN DEFENSIVE. this is across the board chance. SK's didnt get singled out and nerfed. Defensive was for tanking mobs NOT high DPS. Tanks do TOO MUCH dmg while being able to take hits. Just because you have one niche set out for yourself to solo in defensive stance so you take little dmg and still dish out high DPS, and your afraid of losing that...(which by the way-high DPS and taking no dmg is WHAT they are fixing) your rabid about it.I played EQ1 back in the 'old days' before Velious and Kunark even...probably logged more hours in MMO's than I can count, so lets not get our rulers please. and news flash...this isnt EQ1 and SK's are viable tanks. k thx.</blockquote>The SK's were modeled on the SK in EQ1 - the problem is the developer forget what an SK is supposed to be. If you can read you will see that SK's were always supposed to be capable of impressive damage -- through a combination of spells and melee -- we were also supposed to be part Necromancer. Well they took away out skelly pet, I guess thinking no one would notice, and now they are taking away out damage -- again thinking people like you wont't notice or care.I have invested 5 years in this game and I am sick and tired of every time they get a new development team they tear the whole game apart and wreck and then have to repair while still expecting people to pay SOE.They could make all these changes via AA and improving Taunts -- leave the buffs, but if players want the buff don't let them have the stance. Thee was NO REAL NEED TO ROLL THE BUFFS INTO STANCES. That is way overboard. Total OVERKILL.</blockquote>5 Years ? dang soe where is my vetran reward?. I am pretty sure eq2 is just now past 4 years and going into 5 years.

Zibleez

01-11-2009, 10:39 PM

How do we expect SOE to take any of our suggestions seriously when there's an obvious lack of objectivity here?Test it, analyze it, feedback it, and discuss it here. The rest of this is clouding the point and inhibiting progress.

Phank

01-11-2009, 11:55 PM

Am I like the only veteran SK (main toon since launch) here that finds these changes exciting? It actually gives us awesome tank tools for when we want to tank and incredibly flexible tools for offensive mode when we don't want to take aggro from the MT.Only issue might be in Raid as 3rd tank when you have to be ready for snap aggro, BUT that's why we have Sneering Assault, Gallantry, and Malevolent Tormenting in Shadows tree. These new AAs will help us spec for rapid threat growth. Include our 8-second Mythical and Furor our role as 3rd tank should be fine.Only complaint is the dual penalty on both stances. Double hit to damage in Defensive and double penalty to defense in Offensive.

Maroger

01-12-2009, 12:08 PM

<cite>Phank wrote:</cite><blockquote>Am I like the only veteran SK (main toon since launch) here that finds these changes exciting? It actually gives us awesome tank tools for when we want to tank and incredibly flexible tools for offensive mode when we don't want to take aggro from the MT.Only issue might be in Raid as 3rd tank when you have to be ready for snap aggro, BUT that's why we have Sneering Assault, Gallantry, and Malevolent Tormenting in Shadows tree. These new AAs will help us spec for rapid threat growth. Include our 8-second Mythical and Furor our role as 3rd tank should be fine.Only complaint is the dual penalty on both stances. Double hit to damage in Defensive and double penalty to defense in Offensive.</blockquote>Its a lot more than that -- if you look at the NERFS to AA's they stripped out over all when you look at the AA's about 50% of our damage just to make raids happy.They need to figure out a better change than this. The tools are not flexible they are inflexible because they are reducing your damage. If they just wanted to give you aggro tools they could have done with improving taunt and increasing threat -- they did not need to merge buffs into stances rendering them worhtless and they did NOT NEED TO NERF THE DAMAGE ON THE AA's like Legionaire's Smith to name just one. I suggest you do a little math and just not read the pap in the test notes which DO NOT TELL THE WHOLE STORY OF WHAT THEY HAVE DONE>

Tandy

01-12-2009, 12:31 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Phank wrote:</cite><blockquote>Am I like the only veteran SK (main toon since launch) here that finds these changes exciting? It actually gives us awesome tank tools for when we want to tank and incredibly flexible tools for offensive mode when we don't want to take aggro from the MT.Only issue might be in Raid as 3rd tank when you have to be ready for snap aggro, BUT that's why we have Sneering Assault, Gallantry, and Malevolent Tormenting in Shadows tree. These new AAs will help us spec for rapid threat growth. Include our 8-second Mythical and Furor our role as 3rd tank should be fine.Only complaint is the dual penalty on both stances. Double hit to damage in Defensive and double penalty to defense in Offensive.</blockquote>Its a lot more than that -- if you look at the NERFS to AA's they stripped out over all when you look at the AA's about 50% of our damage just to make raids happy.They need to figure out a better change than this. The tools are not flexible they are inflexible because they are reducing your damage. If they just wanted to give you aggro tools they could have done with improving taunt and increasing threat -- they did not need to merge buffs into stances rendering them worhtless and they did NOT NEED TO NERF THE DAMAGE ON THE AA's like Legionaire's Smith to name just one. I suggest you do a little math and just not read the pap in the test notes which DO NOT TELL THE WHOLE STORY OF WHAT THEY HAVE DONE></blockquote>This is likley the last reply I will make to you....but again the damage on spell based combat arts are based off your Intelligence stat. If you dont haev your stance up for the large Int boost the spell dmg is reducded. Please check again cause there is no nerfing to legionnaires smite that I noticed or saw and I had a similar Int on test as on live.

Phank

01-12-2009, 02:24 PM

Since change to AAs have been brought up in this "Nerf" discussion, let's look at the current changes to AA on Test server for our trees.CRUSADER Tree:Idolic Axe - 5/5(Test) Increase base amt of taunts by 9.6%. Increase Taunt crit chance by 17.6%.(Live) Increase Hate Gain by 10%.SHADOWKNIGHT Tree:Enhance Defensive Pact & Vengeful Hatred - same effect and gains, new names.SHADOWS Tree:Consumate Defender & Offensive Prowess - Percentages removed from description in favor of raw numbers. Same effect. Points spent only affect Defense, Agression and Parry for Defensive. And Slashing, Piercing, Crushing, Disruption for Offensive.Gallantry - Added critical threat of taunt spells by 2% per rank.Valor in Battle -(Test) Improves the damage and threat by 5% per rank when using melee attack in either stance.(Live) Improves the damage done by Unholy weapon by 5% per rank.Those are the only changes to our AAs on Test. So, again WHERE IS THE NERF? You really need to login to Test before you cry that the sky is falling. Yes, all of our Threat abilities will be affected by the new system (with the exception of Seething Hatred on the Mythical, it seems to add hate regardless of stance when it triggers.)

Morgis

01-12-2009, 03:36 PM

They are referring to the fact that you can't have Unholy Weapon up in Defensive stance so the 5 AAs that enhance Unholy Weapon will now also be useless in Defensive stance.This on top of losing 10% spell damage and from what I hear 50% auto attack damage when in the new Defensive stance.

Ashdaren

01-12-2009, 03:46 PM

Def stance brings less melee dps, less spell damage hence less powerful drains and damage proc disapear.On the good side we gain the overdue parry skill.Sorry this is not a good deal lol!

Maroger

01-12-2009, 03:47 PM

<cite>Phank wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since change to AAs have been brought up in this "Nerf" discussion, let's look at the current changes to AA on Test server for our trees.CRUSADER Tree:Idolic Axe - 5/5(Test) Increase base amt of taunts by 9.6%. Increase Taunt crit chance by 17.6%.(Live) Increase Hate Gain by 10%.SHADOWKNIGHT Tree:Enhance Defensive Pact & Vengeful Hatred - same effect and gains, new names.SHADOWS Tree:Consumate Defender & Offensive Prowess - Percentages removed from description in favor of raw numbers. Same effect. Points spent only affect Defense, Agression and Parry for Defensive. And Slashing, Piercing, Crushing, Disruption for Offensive.Gallantry - Added critical threat of taunt spells by 2% per rank.Valor in Battle -(Test) Improves the damage and threat by 5% per rank when using melee attack in either stance.(Live) Improves the damage done by Unholy weapon by 5% per rank.Those are the only changes to our AAs on Test. So, again WHERE IS THE NERF? You really need to login to Test before you cry that the sky is falling. Yes, all of our Threat abilities will be affected by the new system (with the exception of Seething Hatred on the Mythical, it seems to add hate regardless of stance when it triggers.) </blockquote>YOu ae coming from this with a different set of AA than I have. I wouldn't waste points on GALLANTRY, IDOLIC AXE etc.I am specifically talking about Legioniare's Wrath on LIVE with 7 points in it I get 530-830 damage. On test I get 431-718 no matter what stance I am in. NOw that is a NERF - you may not want to call it that but that is what it is.I don't have any of the SHADOW AA's -- and I suspect you do. BUT not everyone who is playing had a ton of AA's so NERF to AA's for damage is noticeable. But it is quite unfair to compare your level, gear, and AA's and say all is peachy keen, when you are having no thought about players who don't have all those AA's and levels - they are being hurt - but you obviously dont think about others who do not have your level and AA's who were having a fine time till this nerf to satisfy whiny raiders came along.

Maroger

01-12-2009, 03:49 PM

<cite>Morgis wrote:</cite><blockquote>They are referring to the fact that you can't have Unholy Weapon up in Defensive stance so the 5 AAs that enhance Unholy Weapon will now also be useless in Defensive stance.This on top of losing 10% spell damage and from what I hear 50% auto attack damage when in the new Defensive stance.</blockquote>It is more than than than see my post about Legionaires Wrath - the damage has gone down from Live to Test. Now I only have 7 points in it but it has gone down. My stance does NOT affect the amount of damage. So there are other areas where they are reducing damage given by AA.

LygerT

01-12-2009, 03:57 PM

why not just /feedback what you think is unfair? or maybe adapt? sorry, but i have a hard time believing this is a "huge" nerf. we are all going through it, not just you.

Tandy

01-12-2009, 03:58 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morgis wrote:</cite><blockquote>They are referring to the fact that you can't have Unholy Weapon up in Defensive stance so the 5 AAs that enhance Unholy Weapon will now also be useless in Defensive stance.This on top of losing 10% spell damage and from what I hear 50% auto attack damage when in the new Defensive stance.</blockquote>It is more than than than see my post about Legionaires Wrath - the damage has gone down from Live to Test. Now I only have 7 points in it but it has gone down. My stance does NOT affect the amount of damage. So there are other areas where they are reducing damage given by AA.</blockquote>Copy from the OTHER thread where you are complainig about a non-existant nerf.Currently on live Legionnaires smite with 4 AA's invested is 561-902 dmg for me with 797 int in Offensive stance.On test copy RIGHT NOW AS I TYPE THIS! Legionnaires smite with 4 AA's invested is 651-1002 dmg with 819 int in Offensive stance.The diffrence is adept 3 offensive on live and master 1 on test since I have other buffs in master, so the Int boost is higher.In no way shape, fashion, form or anythign else you can ever possibly think to say is that a NERF!!!!The damage is HIGHER for goodness sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Please feel free to give me more examples I can disprove if you want.

Huntress Jellica

01-12-2009, 04:05 PM

Xaren, and everyone else that is trying to be helpful/constructive/etc... Just give it up. Maroger won't listen to anyone unless he gets his way, with an easy "I WIN!" button (with a recast time of 1 second or less) on the side. You're better off investing your time elsewhere.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

LygerT

01-12-2009, 04:17 PM

oh, and the .5 modifier translated to 30% less auto attack damage not 50%, which also leads me to believe most of this BS is just hot air from people who want to whine for whining sake without doing any real testing, changing AAs and gear or anything but want to play as they always have.

Tandy

01-12-2009, 04:29 PM

Yeah I got on Test and saw what I needed...I know what I need to do when it goes live for my fun alt. Is everything perfect? of course not...but on the flip side...the sky isnt falling down around me either.I just had prepared myself for something far worse than what I found lol. So when I saw the changes I actually was kinda thrilled it wasnt as overboard as I expected and it really irks me when people look at something that isnt bad and try to paint it as something out of an end-of-the-world scenario in a bad fiction novel.

Maroger

01-12-2009, 05:30 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah I got on Test and saw what I needed...I know what I need to do when it goes live for my fun alt. Is everything perfect? of course not...but on the flip side...the sky isnt falling down around me either.I just had prepared myself for something far worse than what I found lol. So when I saw the changes I actually was kinda thrilled it wasnt as overboard as I expected and it really irks me when people look at something that isnt bad and try to paint it as something out of an end-of-the-world scenario in a bad fiction novel.</blockquote>I got on test and saw what I need to and felt that it was much worse than I thought it would be. The Patch notes play down the massive changes that are happening. And these changes are buried everywhere. Not just in the stances - the loss of buffs, secretive changes to AAs. -- a whole lot of thing.They are making this game a whole lot less fun for a lot of people to play just to solve a problem that could have been solved with a little more programming effort instead of going for a quick and dirty solution.

BleemTeam

01-12-2009, 05:37 PM

You guys (all plate tanks) need to stop worrying about your "Damage"... Its not that it doesn't matter anymore, you are missing the whole point of the change. You not are worrying about your Threat. No longer do you HAVE to do 7k DPS to compete w/ aggro from wizards and assassins.You have Threat now. It's been proven that doign 2k DPS which having 5k TPS will keep aggro off a 12k DPS assassin. Please take a moment and stop whining about "Damage". Because it's not the point anymore, remotely.

Tandy

01-12-2009, 05:42 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah I got on Test and saw what I needed...I know what I need to do when it goes live for my fun alt. Is everything perfect? of course not...but on the flip side...the sky isnt falling down around me either.I just had prepared myself for something far worse than what I found lol. So when I saw the changes I actually was kinda thrilled it wasnt as overboard as I expected and it really irks me when people look at something that isnt bad and try to paint it as something out of an end-of-the-world scenario in a bad fiction novel.</blockquote>I got on test and saw what I need to and felt that it was much worse than I thought it would be. The Patch notes play down the massive changes that are happening. And these changes are buried everywhere. Not just in the stances - the loss of buffs, secretive changes to AAs. -- a whole lot of thing.They are making this game a whole lot less fun for a lot of people to play just to solve a problem that could have been solved with a little more programming effort instead of going for a quick and dirty solution.</blockquote>If there are 'secret changes' to AA you need to pinpoint them exactly. I spent over 2 hours pouring over AA's doing respec after respec and looking at things and matching them up and I spotted NOTHING out of the ordinary other than the ones that changed due to the stances.There is no loss of buffs if you use the stances, there is no 50% loss of DPS, there is nothing I can find that you are claiming YOU find.If you find something no one else has speak up, but quit spreading misinformation that is flat out wrong.

Maroger

01-12-2009, 06:17 PM

<cite>BleemTeam wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys (all plate tanks) need to stop worrying about your "Damage"... Its not that it doesn't matter anymore, you are missing the whole point of the change. You not are worrying about your Threat. No longer do you HAVE to do 7k DPS to compete w/ aggro from wizards and assassins.You have Threat now. It's been proven that doign 2k DPS which having 5k TPS will keep aggro off a 12k DPS assassin. Please take a moment and stop whining about "Damage". Because it's not the point anymore, remotely.</blockquote>Damage is the point if you solo. Threat is the point if you raid or group. These changes are hurting solo because they are decreasing the damage we do. Not every one wearing plate tanks for a group or raid. You all overlook the impact this change on soloing because you group and raid. Not everyone does or wants to.

Maroger

01-12-2009, 06:18 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah I got on Test and saw what I needed...I know what I need to do when it goes live for my fun alt. Is everything perfect? of course not...but on the flip side...the sky isnt falling down around me either.I just had prepared myself for something far worse than what I found lol. So when I saw the changes I actually was kinda thrilled it wasnt as overboard as I expected and it really irks me when people look at something that isnt bad and try to paint it as something out of an end-of-the-world scenario in a bad fiction novel.</blockquote>I got on test and saw what I need to and felt that it was much worse than I thought it would be. The Patch notes play down the massive changes that are happening. And these changes are buried everywhere. Not just in the stances - the loss of buffs, secretive changes to AAs. -- a whole lot of thing.They are making this game a whole lot less fun for a lot of people to play just to solve a problem that could have been solved with a little more programming effort instead of going for a quick and dirty solution.</blockquote>If there are 'secret changes' to AA you need to pinpoint them exactly. I spent over 2 hours pouring over AA's doing respec after respec and looking at things and matching them up and I spotted NOTHING out of the ordinary other than the ones that changed due to the stances.There is no loss of buffs if you use the stances, there is no 50% loss of DPS, there is nothing I can find that you are claiming YOU find.If you find something no one else has speak up, but quit spreading misinformation that is flat out wrong.</blockquote>I don't waste time on respec - I look at the decription of the AA on LIve and compare it with what is said on test. That is the way you do. Respec factors in more than 1 AA. I am looking at each AA in isolation which is the only way you can evaluate them. What you are doing merely distorts the issue.

Tandy

01-12-2009, 06:22 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't waste time on respec - I look at the decription of the AA on LIve and compare it with what is said on test. That is the way you do. Respec factors in more than 1 AA. I am looking at each AA in isolation which is the only way you can evaluate them. What you are doing merely distorts the issue.</blockquote>This one statement has just about invalidated anything and everything you could possibly say about testing content for an update.Respec'ing the AA's gives you a chance to look at the increases from 1 point to 4 points to 8 points...to evaluate and test the new ones to myriad other things. Its the entire reason you have free unlimited respecs on the test and test copy server.If you cant even be bothered to take 4 minutes out to reset your AA and try somethign else out and see how things change then its no wonder your so livid over this update. This is forcing people to adapt, and it is apparently something you are unable and unwilling to do.

BleemTeam

01-12-2009, 06:26 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BleemTeam wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys (all plate tanks) need to stop worrying about your "Damage"... Its not that it doesn't matter anymore, you are missing the whole point of the change. You not are worrying about your Threat. No longer do you HAVE to do 7k DPS to compete w/ aggro from wizards and assassins.You have Threat now. It's been proven that doign 2k DPS which having 5k TPS will keep aggro off a 12k DPS assassin. Please take a moment and stop whining about "Damage". Because it's not the point anymore, remotely.</blockquote>Damage is the point if you solo. Threat is the point if you raid or group. These changes are hurting solo because they are decreasing the damage we do. Not every one wearing plate tanks for a group or raid. You all overlook the impact this change on soloing because you group and raid. Not everyone does or wants to.</blockquote>Maroger - It's not like damage was crippled in such a way that you can't solo any longer. There are plenty of adaptive items that you could wear with these changes to help you do more damage. If this is about solo'ing fighter damage and NOT about survivability or threat like you are claiming.

RafaelSmith

01-12-2009, 06:29 PM

Geothe

01-12-2009, 06:35 PM

Maroger:The "nerf" in damage you are seeing is due to your massive lost in Int when you aren't in your offensive stance.Int has a HUGE effect on spell damage (which SKs have a lot of) when you are lower on the diminishing returns curve (which SKs are in comparison to mages).Therefore, when you lose that huge chuck on Int when you are not in your offensive stance, all of your spell damages are noticeably reduced as well.Then again, this has already been stated by others in the thread.Guess I'm just hoping that the 15th time it is stated, it may actually sink in to your head.

liveja

01-12-2009, 08:29 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't waste time on respec - I look at the decription of the AA on LIve and compare it with what is said on test. That is the way you do. Respec factors in more than 1 AA. I am looking at each AA in isolation which is the only way you can evaluate them. What you are doing merely distorts the issue.</blockquote>This one statement has just about invalidated anything and everything you could possibly say about testing content for an update.</blockquote>My thoughts exactly.

Praytus

01-12-2009, 08:38 PM

I'm still trying to figure out why SKs got + parry on their defensive stance and paladins didn't.On another note, without passive hate, all those TSO encounters with uncurable stuns, stifles, mezzes are sure gonna suck...

Maroger

01-12-2009, 08:57 PM

<cite>Praytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm still trying to figure out why SKs got + parry on their defensive stance and paladins didn't.On another note, without passive hate, all those TSO encounters with uncurable stuns, stifles, mezzes are sure gonna suck...</blockquote>I notice with the patch changes have come to the AA's --- We have a new AAcalled Vengeful Sword with almost no meaningful description on.The Stances are no longer in the AA's list for SK - they have been replaced with new ones which have no intelligble description on them.

Maroger

01-12-2009, 09:01 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't waste time on respec - I look at the decription of the AA on LIve and compare it with what is said on test. That is the way you do. Respec factors in more than 1 AA. I am looking at each AA in isolation which is the only way you can evaluate them. What you are doing merely distorts the issue.</blockquote>This one statement has just about invalidated anything and everything you could possibly say about testing content for an update.</blockquote>My thoughts exactly.</blockquote>Respec is a waste of time -- I want to see what the base numbers are on the AA. That is what interests me - not what happens when I respec. I can sit down with a spread sheet and figure that out. I want to see what the base numbers say.It is the base numbers listed on the AA that are important - you can figure out what they will do for you when you throw everything into a spread sheet. Now of course if you can't use a spread sheet then obviously you do respec. For me a spread sheet is more mathematically accurate.

Tandy

01-12-2009, 09:10 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't waste time on respec - I look at the decription of the AA on LIve and compare it with what is said on test. That is the way you do. Respec factors in more than 1 AA. I am looking at each AA in isolation which is the only way you can evaluate them. What you are doing merely distorts the issue.</blockquote>This one statement has just about invalidated anything and everything you could possibly say about testing content for an update.</blockquote>My thoughts exactly.</blockquote>Respec is a waste of time -- I want to see what the base numbers are on the AA. That is what interests me - not what happens when I respec. I can sit down with a spread sheet and figure that out. I want to see what the base numbers say.It is the base numbers listed on the AA that are important - you can figure out what they will do for you when you throw everything into a spread sheet. Now of course if you can't use a spread sheet then obviously you do respec. For me a spread sheet is more mathematically accurate.</blockquote>Sorry I must call BS. Spread sheets tell you diddly squat about resist rates, kill speed and a crap load of other information that comes from TESTING changes. If all you do is grab the base numbers and use spread sheets its very clear you know absolutly nothing about this game.

Tandy

01-12-2009, 09:29 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm still trying to figure out why SKs got + parry on their defensive stance and paladins didn't.On another note, without passive hate, all those TSO encounters with uncurable stuns, stifles, mezzes are sure gonna suck...</blockquote>I notice with the patch changes have come to the AA's --- We have a new AAcalled Vengeful Sword with almost no meaningful description on.The Stances are no longer in the AA's list for SK - they have been replaced with new ones which have no intelligble description on them.</blockquote>The only AA with "Vengeful" in the name I can find is Vengeful Hatred. It is a top tier ability in the Shadowknight tree. The text says "Increases the trigger chance of the damange and threat increase effects on the shadowknights stances." it gives 1% trigger chance per rank.The AA increases the trigger chance of the dmg/lifetap proc on offensive stance - and the threat/lifetap proc on the defensive stance.On live currently that AA increases the trigger chance of the Arms proc buff by 1%...so in essence the AA is the exact same, it is just reworded to show it works for both stance version of the old buff.

Maroger

01-12-2009, 10:09 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm still trying to figure out why SKs got + parry on their defensive stance and paladins didn't.On another note, without passive hate, all those TSO encounters with uncurable stuns, stifles, mezzes are sure gonna suck...</blockquote>I notice with the patch changes have come to the AA's --- We have a new AAcalled Vengeful Sword with almost no meaningful description on.The Stances are no longer in the AA's list for SK - they have been replaced with new ones which have no intelligble description on them.</blockquote>The only AA with "Vengeful" in the name I can find is Vengeful Hatred. It is a top tier ability in the Shadowknight tree. The text says "Increases the trigger chance of the damange and threat increase effects on the shadowknights stances." it gives 1% trigger chance per rank.The AA increases the trigger chance of the dmg/lifetap proc on offensive stance - and the threat/lifetap proc on the defensive stance.On live currently that AA increases the trigger chance of the Arms proc buff by 1%...so in essence the AA is the exact same, it is just reworded to show it works for both stance version of the old buff.</blockquote>Not quite right. Before these were buffs and there were explicit and real numbers associated with the buffs in terms of damage and heal. NOw that that he buffs don't exist -- all we get is a percentage increase which is meaningless ifyou don't have the base numbers to know what it is 1% of. Maybe you like guess and not knowing. -- I LIKE REAL NUMBERS.We had real numbers before I want real numbers now. Maybe you are not mathematcially inclined so are no interested in numbers, but the numbers tell me what exactly is happening. So this is 1% of what? please spell out on the AA.

Tandy

01-12-2009, 10:32 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm still trying to figure out why SKs got + parry on their defensive stance and paladins didn't.On another note, without passive hate, all those TSO encounters with uncurable stuns, stifles, mezzes are sure gonna suck...</blockquote>I notice with the patch changes have come to the AA's --- We have a new AAcalled Vengeful Sword with almost no meaningful description on.The Stances are no longer in the AA's list for SK - they have been replaced with new ones which have no intelligble description on them.</blockquote>The only AA with "Vengeful" in the name I can find is Vengeful Hatred. It is a top tier ability in the Shadowknight tree. The text says "Increases the trigger chance of the damange and threat increase effects on the shadowknights stances." it gives 1% trigger chance per rank.The AA increases the trigger chance of the dmg/lifetap proc on offensive stance - and the threat/lifetap proc on the defensive stance.On live currently that AA increases the trigger chance of the Arms proc buff by 1%...so in essence the AA is the exact same, it is just reworded to show it works for both stance version of the old buff.</blockquote>Not quite right. Before these were buffs and there were explicit and real numbers associated with the buffs in terms of damage and heal. NOw that that he buffs don't exist -- all we get is a percentage increase which is meaningless ifyou don't have the base numbers to know what it is 1% of. Maybe you like guess and not knowing. -- I LIKE REAL NUMBERS.We had real numbers before I want real numbers now. Maybe you are not mathematcially inclined so are no interested in numbers, but the numbers tell me what exactly is happening. So this is 1% of what? please spell out on the AA.</blockquote>How can you possibly spout this stream of false information. Go log on Live right now...the EXACT same AA spot on the top tier of shadowknight AA says it increases the trigger chance of Unholy Arms line by 1%. That is the SAME THING. If life says 1% and test says 1% it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to say that you had numbers before. My goodness how do you not see that? At this point im about 99% sure your just a nasty forum troll looking to screw everyone over.*if you are talking about the buffs being merged with the stances if you took more than the 2 seconds it took you to decide to hate it and actually LOOK at the stances...you would see in BIG BOLD numbers EXACTLY the information you have on live currently. The stances list damage number, lifetaps amounts, threat amounts the whole freaking 9 yards.On live the buffs list the dmg/lifetap amounts on unholy arms line...and the same information is now found by examining the stance on test. it is the SAME MATHMATICAL INFORMATION for people too blind to find it on their own.Also an AA that increases trigger % has no base listed cause it is adding more to the proc rate. you have to examine the stance to see what your proc rate is and normally it adds .1 to it per AA you invest.

Rijacki

01-12-2009, 10:32 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm still trying to figure out why SKs got + parry on their defensive stance and paladins didn't.On another note, without passive hate, all those TSO encounters with uncurable stuns, stifles, mezzes are sure gonna suck...</blockquote>I notice with the patch changes have come to the AA's --- We have a new AAcalled Vengeful Sword with almost no meaningful description on.The Stances are no longer in the AA's list for SK - they have been replaced with new ones which have no intelligble description on them.</blockquote>The only AA with "Vengeful" in the name I can find is Vengeful Hatred. It is a top tier ability in the Shadowknight tree. The text says "Increases the trigger chance of the damange and threat increase effects on the shadowknights stances." it gives 1% trigger chance per rank.The AA increases the trigger chance of the dmg/lifetap proc on offensive stance - and the threat/lifetap proc on the defensive stance.On live currently that AA increases the trigger chance of the Arms proc buff by 1%...so in essence the AA is the exact same, it is just reworded to show it works for both stance version of the old buff.</blockquote>Not quite right. Before these were buffs and there were explicit and real numbers associated with the buffs in terms of damage and heal. NOw that that he buffs don't exist -- all we get is a percentage increase which is meaningless ifyou don't have the base numbers to know what it is 1% of. Maybe you like guess and not knowing. -- I LIKE REAL NUMBERS.We had real numbers before I want real numbers now. Maybe you are not mathematcially inclined so are no interested in numbers, but the numbers tell me what exactly is happening. So this is 1% of what? please spell out on the AA.</blockquote>You do realise there are various things which can affect the 'base' number, yes? Buffs, gear, your stats, etc can all effect the 'base' giving different characters different 'base' depending on how they're equipped. Thus, that % change will be different for different gear/Achievement/buffs from others build.Someone who has bothered to go through their acheivements and respec for certain effects, has bothered to get gear to maximise certain effects, and even groups with other people instead of only relying on their own buffs would have a vastly different 'base' than someone who intentionally uses mediocre to crappy gear, doesn't bother to try out different achievement point allocations (even with unlimited respec), and doesn't want to bother with getting spell/CA upgrades unless they land in his lap by happenstance.

Morgis

01-12-2009, 11:39 PM

I logged on to live and test and noted the numbers on the Persona screen for my level 80 SK with him in defensiveon both servers. I was surprised by a couple things:HP went from 11064 on live to 10050 on testPower was close to the sameMitigation went from 5364 on live to 4990 on testAvoidance went from 7764 on live to 6288 on testI thought these changes were supposed to make us better tanks at the expense of dmg dealing. Mytanking stats went down, not up. And why did my HP drop by 1000?

Tandy

01-12-2009, 11:51 PM

<cite>Morgis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I logged on to live and test and noted the numbers on the Persona screen for my level 80 SK with him in defensiveon both servers. I was surprised by a couple things:HP went from 11064 on live to 10050 on testPower was close to the sameMitigation went from 5364 on live to 4990 on testAvoidance went from 7764 on live to 6288 on testI thought these changes were supposed to make us better tanks at the expense of dmg dealing. Mytanking stats went down, not up. And why did my HP drop by 1000?</blockquote>Dont forget all your old master 2 choices involved buffs that no longer exist so that entire section of stuff got reset from racial choices to your stat increasers and all master 2 picks.Once I got myself all set up my mitigation and hp were identical to live, and avoidance went up cause of the added parry to defensive stance.

CrazyMoogle

01-13-2009, 10:41 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is all about catering to raiders -- be honest for a change. That was the group that was whining.</blockquote>Can you please link me to the posts of raiders who were whining for this change? I've not seen them so I'd like to read them.

liveja

01-13-2009, 12:42 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can sit down with a spread sheet and figure that out. I want to see what the base numbers say.</blockquote>/facepalmBASE NUMBERS are going to CHANGE depending on your stats, your gear buffs, & other choices you've made.You CANNOT figure that stuff out with just a spreadsheet.You may be mathematically inclined, but you know NOTHING about developing a character, which might have something to do with all the various problems you've had over the years.

Maroger

01-13-2009, 01:02 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can sit down with a spread sheet and figure that out. I want to see what the base numbers say.</blockquote>/facepalmBASE NUMBERS are going to CHANGE depending on your stats, your gear buffs, & other choices you've made.You CANNOT figure that stuff out with just a spreadsheet.You may be mathematically inclined, but you know NOTHING about developing a character, which might have something to do with all the various problems you've had over the years.</blockquote>Base number do change but these changes are based on other things liike AA, Spell levels etc.BUT EVERYTHING STARTS FROM THE BASE NUMBER - this is a not a random calculated number. IT IS A BASE NUMBER and changes to it can be calculated mathematically by the numbers or percents given for spells or AA or levelling. BUT THERE IS ALWAYS A BASE NUMBER.MMOs all start with bases numbers for character classes at level 1-- there has to be a base number or increases would be meaningless.You(well maybe not you) can always calculate the change to the base when you know the numbers that your stats increase as the result of AA's buffs, gear - those things have numbers too. You are missing the point - everything in this game has a number assigned to it. When you know the number you know what the final result is.I haven't had any problems over the years as you put it - everything was fine till this massive NERF HIT.

liveja

01-13-2009, 01:16 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>BUT EVERYTHING STARTS FROM THE BASE NUMBER</blockquote>Of course it does. Nobody said otherwise. You won't know that base number, however, unless you're looking at things while completely naked, with all buffs off, & without any AAs to deal with. THEN you can start fiddling around & looking at stuff. But that kinda means doing a few RE-SPECS.THAT is how you test things: you don't just look at a spreadsheet & magikally "know" what everything will do, or how everything will work.

Darry

01-13-2009, 01:39 PM

Maroger is so dumb he makes me want to punch babies.Personally I can't see why anyone would whine about this update, we have similar DPS (a little higher tbh) in off stance, lower DPS but more avoidance and hate generation in def stance. We're generally just better tanks because of it and you're whining because you can't solo in def stance anymore?QQ less and at least try to have some perspective.

Phank

01-13-2009, 01:51 PM

<cite>BleemTeam wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys (all plate tanks) need to stop worrying about your "Damage"... Its not that it doesn't matter anymore, you are missing the whole point of the change. You not are worrying about your Threat. No longer do you HAVE to do 7k DPS to compete w/ aggro from wizards and assassins.</blockquote>QFEIt's not about damage any more at all. It's about TANKING. You rolled a TANK, so now suck it up and play in Defensive when you wanna tank mobs and take less dmg and not worry about Warlocks and light scouts taking aggro and dying in front of you. You will be sticky and you will do less dmg. Get over it. It's what being a tank is about.On raids, now you can go balls out in Offensive and not have to throttle off the taunts/debuffs and DM! Go all out in Offensive form.I just don't get what all the crying is about... get on test, get in a group and you will love the changes.

Maroger

01-13-2009, 03:06 PM

<cite>Phank wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BleemTeam wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys (all plate tanks) need to stop worrying about your "Damage"... Its not that it doesn't matter anymore, you are missing the whole point of the change. You not are worrying about your Threat. No longer do you HAVE to do 7k DPS to compete w/ aggro from wizards and assassins.</blockquote>QFEIt's not about damage any more at all. It's about TANKING. You rolled a TANK, so now suck it up and play in Defensive when you wanna tank mobs and take less dmg and not worry about Warlocks and light scouts taking aggro and dying in front of you. You will be sticky and you will do less dmg. Get over it. It's what being a tank is about.On raids, now you can go balls out in Offensive and not have to throttle off the taunts/debuffs and DM! Go all out in Offensive form.I just don't get what all the crying is about... get on test, get in a group and you will love the changes.</blockquote>That's the problem it is too much about groups!!!By the way I thought on this buff/stance merger we would get the higher level of the spell -== i.e. if all our buffs were at MASTER I then the stances would be Master I? Is that not what was said?

Maroger

01-13-2009, 03:11 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>BUT EVERYTHING STARTS FROM THE BASE NUMBER</blockquote>Of course it does. Nobody said otherwise. You won't know that base number, however, unless you're looking at things while completely naked, with all buffs off, & without any AAs to deal with. THEN you can start fiddling around & looking at stuff. But that kinda means doing a few RE-SPECS.THAT is how you test things: you don't just look at a spreadsheet & magikally "know" what everything will do, or how everything will work.</blockquote>It doesn't mean doing respecs -- if you have your spread sheets and tables set up correctly it just means changing the numbers and running the stuff through a formula. It is simple basic math. I find it easier and something I can do offline to work with spreadsheets, tables, and formulas and just do some math. I have this all set up over years and automated so I can just plug in the numbers and run the formulas -- I have programs set up to do all this work - it is so much faster and is automated. Plus I don't have to waste time online.If SOE were smart they would put our AA's in and OFFLINE query program so we could see the results on our character without respec. THey had that in WOW so as long as we are in for WOWification why don't they put our AA's offline so we can play with them without respec.

liveja

01-13-2009, 06:06 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's the problem it is too much about groups!!!</blockquote>That's because this game is mostly about groups, & always has been.You, & others like you, relentlessly refuse to understand that point, but your refusal to understand is not SOE's fault.

Lethe5683

01-13-2009, 07:54 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Phank wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BleemTeam wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys (all plate tanks) need to stop worrying about your "Damage"... Its not that it doesn't matter anymore, you are missing the whole point of the change. You not are worrying about your Threat. No longer do you HAVE to do 7k DPS to compete w/ aggro from wizards and assassins.</blockquote>QFEIt's not about damage any more at all. It's about TANKING. You rolled a TANK, so now suck it up and play in Defensive when you wanna tank mobs and take less dmg and not worry about Warlocks and light scouts taking aggro and dying in front of you. You will be sticky and you will do less dmg. Get over it. It's what being a tank is about.On raids, now you can go balls out in Offensive and not have to throttle off the taunts/debuffs and DM! Go all out in Offensive form.I just don't get what all the crying is about... get on test, get in a group and you will love the changes.</blockquote>That's the problem it is too much about groups!!!By the way I thought on this buff/stance merger we would get the higher level of the spell -== i.e. if all our buffs were at MASTER I then the stances would be Master I? Is that not what was said?</blockquote>It's supposed to be about groups. Raids are a waste of time worrying about.

Morgis

01-13-2009, 10:33 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morgis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I logged on to live and test and noted the numbers on the Persona screen for my level 80 SK with him in defensiveon both servers. I was surprised by a couple things:HP went from 11064 on live to 10050 on testPower was close to the sameMitigation went from 5364 on live to 4990 on testAvoidance went from 7764 on live to 6288 on testI thought these changes were supposed to make us better tanks at the expense of dmg dealing. Mytanking stats went down, not up. And why did my HP drop by 1000?</blockquote>Dont forget all your old master 2 choices involved buffs that no longer exist so that entire section of stuff got reset from racial choices to your stat increasers and all master 2 picks.Once I got myself all set up my mitigation and hp were identical to live, and avoidance went up cause of the added parry to defensive stance.</blockquote>Thanks for the tip Xaren, once I chose all my racials, M2s, redid my AAs, and loaded my buffs my numbers were like yours, HP, Power and Mit were the same as live and avoidance went up when in defensive.I had time tonight to fight a good bit, all solo as I was the only one in Moors, and I have to admit that as an SK I have no complaints. On paper it looked like it could have been bad, but when I actually tried the changes out, I was satisified. In defensive, kills were slower but predictible. I could kill fast in Off stance. Off will be real nice in mult-tank groups and solo.It would be nice if we could swap weapons during a fight, like the bandolier in EQ1. Maybe that will come in a later LU.I hope to try some group fights out soon, need to get some guildies on test copy now. I want to get a feel for the hate meter.

Tandy

01-14-2009, 12:43 AM

<cite>Morgis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morgis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I logged on to live and test and noted the numbers on the Persona screen for my level 80 SK with him in defensiveon both servers. I was surprised by a couple things:HP went from 11064 on live to 10050 on testPower was close to the sameMitigation went from 5364 on live to 4990 on testAvoidance went from 7764 on live to 6288 on testI thought these changes were supposed to make us better tanks at the expense of dmg dealing. Mytanking stats went down, not up. And why did my HP drop by 1000?</blockquote>Dont forget all your old master 2 choices involved buffs that no longer exist so that entire section of stuff got reset from racial choices to your stat increasers and all master 2 picks.Once I got myself all set up my mitigation and hp were identical to live, and avoidance went up cause of the added parry to defensive stance.</blockquote>Thanks for the tip Xaren, once I chose all my racials, M2s, redid my AAs, and loaded my buffs my numbers were like yours, HP, Power and Mit were the same as live and avoidance went up when in defensive.I had time tonight to fight a good bit, all solo as I was the only one in Moors, and I have to admit that as an SK I have no complaints. On paper it looked like it could have been bad, but when I actually tried the changes out, I was satisified. In defensive, kills were slower but predictible. I could kill fast in Off stance. Off will be real nice in mult-tank groups and solo.It would be nice if we could swap weapons during a fight, like the bandolier in EQ1. Maybe that will come in a later LU.I hope to try some group fights out soon, need to get some guildies on test copy now. I want to get a feel for the hate meter.</blockquote>Unless things were changed (which I dont think they were) we have the option right now to swap primary, secondary and ranged weapons during combat. We just cant swap any armor or jewlery slots.So for SK's that means pulling with a bow and then swapping a symbol back in or going from sword and board to 2 hander.Now granted its been a while since I have had any swap macros for combat...so it could have changed, but I dont think it has.