Ok Pally is a single target tank now, what do we need to fill that role [Archive]

QuaiCon

01-09-2009, 06:20 AM

The devs decided that we will be a single target tank now and i guess thats not going to change anymore so lets make suggestions what changes we need to fill that role and to be in a competitive position for raidspots.The target should be to be a defensive single target Tank class thats different than gaurdian but also brings enough advantages to be picked over a guardian (since it seems that we now will have to fight with them over raidspots)Lets start with our current situation:*we seem to be only plate tank without parry on defensive stance*we are only tank class that has no way to buff their own mitigation (warrirors got temporary buffs, sk can borrow mit from another fighter in raid)* we don't have any real effective stoneskin abilities, i know only guardian has these but since we are now in same boat with guardians and have to fight with them over the same raidspots that defizit gets more important.*we have heals that we have to cast and that can get interrupted, also for raidsituations the heals are too low if they are the only way to close the defensive gap between us and a guardian.* our heals generate near to no aggro compared to the new taunts, so if we have to help with heals to survive then we are getting in danager of loosing aggro. that is the point why we had amends in first place, but i accept its gone and we just need a solution for the problem that the removal created.* we are the only tank class without a aggro generation on getting hit, our new stance has a aggro proc on hitting the mob but combining that with the previous point that we have to heal too so we will most likely hit less than other tanks makes this a bit weaker.ok what can be done to help paladins with their new role:* first add parry to our def stance, there is really no reason why all other plate tanks have it and only we are missing it.* add a huge heal aggro increase to our defensive stance, if we are in def stance we are tanking so we want aggro from heals. its no free aggro generation like amends anyway.* change the aggro proc on def stance to be more usefull. 1.6 times a minute on a melee hit is not really usefull, like i explained before we are the only tank that also has to cast heals and we also have spells and not only ca so that effect won't proc a lto compared to other tanks passive effects. ideas are to make it a on getting hit buff like on other tanks, if you want to keep it a buff that triggers on our actions then add all kinds of spells (heals and offensive spells) to the events that can trigger it too.then we need to make our heals usefull in newer heroic content and raids. a general improvement of heal values probably won't work since it would probably be overpowered in some situations, so we need more intelligent solutions.* one idea would be to make heals faster (or non interruptable) and stronger if our own health is below 50%* a creative idea would be to make amends a buff that modifies our single target heal and ward to make them usable on self only, increases and their heal amount and aggro generation greatly* sacrament heal line really needs a rework, right now its a slightly bigger heal that can be used self only but casting time and recast are just not worth it for the heal amount. for soloing it can be nice but other than that its more or less a wasted spell that could be replaced with something better.* an idea that would also help with the stoneskin defizit would be to give our ward a high enough chance to absorb the complete hit if the hit is bigger than the whole ward amountok thats just some ideas and i guess there is enough other paladins out there that have more ideas too. keep this topic to suggestions how we can improve the new situation especially for making paladin usefull in raids as MT or OT, it should not be about complaining that we lost amends since that will just drive devs away.

Kalinmoor

01-09-2009, 07:05 AM

Well, as an ex-top tier raid paladin, I don't have any issues with the changes, I am already my current guilds OT, and might even get bumped to MT in light of this and other matters. (btw, I don't want to be MT)Nothing has changed as far as tanking encounters, our myriad of AEs was always how I kept aggro in those fights, Amends almost never had anything to do with it, and we still have all of our AEs.I am not going to miss amends, in fact, recently it was starting to annoy me given my current situation (which I will not go into, as it does not matter anymore) and am happy with its change.*we seem to be only plate tank without parry on defensive stancethe parry thing I don't really care about, there is enough gear that adds to parry in TSO that I can get all I want, and the effect is already starting to become negligible. in the long run, I won't complain if they add it, but I don't care if they don't.*we are only tank class that has no way to buff their own mitigation (warriors got temporary buffs, sk can borrow mit from another fighter in raid)Our defensive stance adds to our mitigation.* we don't have any real effective stoneskin abilities, i know only guardian has these but since we are now in same boat with guardians and have to fight with them over the same raidspots that defizit gets more important.Divine Aura spanks stoneskin in the right hands, not to mention we "can" pre ward ourselves which does just about the same thing.*we have heals that we have to cast and that can get interrupted, also for raidsituations the heals are too low if they are the only way to close the defensive gap between us and a guardian.As far as the heals go, to hell with them, I have not used them in years outside of for spot healing myself while soloing or dueling. if your raiding and have to heal yourself, then your healers are clearly not doing their job.* our heals generate near to no aggro compared to the new taunts, so if we have to help with heals to survive then we are getting in danager of loosing aggro. that is the point why we had amends in first place, but i accept its gone and we just need a solution for the problem that the removal created.read the above reply* we are the only tank class without a aggro generation on getting hit, our new stance has a aggro proc on hitting the mob but combining that with the previous point that we have to heal too so we will most likely hit less than other tanks makes this a bit weaker.I really think this will be a non-issue, considering we should not have to be healing in the first place, and there is plenty of gear that has hate procs on it.So far, after looking at all of my spells on test, I am happier then I have been with the class in years. the only problem I foresee is a mistaken belief rising among the community that we will become useless.I honestly cannot wait until the patch is live, regardless of what anyone else thinks, I believe this is a fantastic thing that happened, and we should all be thanking SoE for finally adding some balance to all the tanks.

QuaiCon

01-09-2009, 07:47 AM

<cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Our defensive stance adds to our mitigation.</blockquote>as does every other def stance for every other tank class. all other tank classes additionally got additional mit buffs<cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Divine Aura spanks stoneskin in the right hands, not to mention we "can" pre ward ourselves which does just about the same thing.</blockquote>maybe i worded it a bit wrong yes we got divine aura but if you compare dvine aura to guardian abilities it is a lot weaker (only absorbs hits if they hit for less than 50% the health). also ward alone does not cut it, its about 2k while we are talking about 10k+ hits on hard raidmobs.<cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>As far as the heals go, to hell with them, I have not used them in years outside of for spot healing myself while soloing or dueling. if your raiding and have to heal yourself, then your healers are clearly not doing their job.</blockquote>as i mentioned before we got lower defenses when compared to other tanks. so we get hit for more, to make up for it we got heals if you don't use them thats your problem, but they are an integral part of the class design, and they allways have been the argument why we got no mit buffs.but now the heals are getting too small to make up for the difference and casting them is no longer viable since you might loose aggro while casting them.so yes you can say everything is happy and just don't use the heals, but i want to ask you if you would be a raidleader who would you use as a single target tank a guardian that gets hit for less, gets hit less often and additionally has superior stoneskin or would you take a pally that needs a lot more heals no longer has superior aggro and only has near to useless heals?thats the point why many of the paladins are unhappy with the changes, and why we want some bigger changes in the defensive part of the paladin, we don't want to be the gaurdian replacement that only gets a spot if no guardian is available and will most likely never be first pick. its not taking away amends its putting us in same position as guardian but without defensive abilities that can compare to the abilities of a guardian

Maveric_LOL

01-09-2009, 11:14 AM

<cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, as an ex-top tier raid paladin, I don't have any issues with the changes, I am already my current guilds OT, and might even get bumped to MT in light of this and other matters. (btw, I don't want to be MT)Nothing has changed as far as tanking encounters, our myriad of AEs was always how I kept aggro in those fights, Amends almost never had anything to do with it, and we still have all of our AEs.I am not going to miss amends, in fact, recently it was starting to annoy me given my current situation (which I will not go into, as it does not matter anymore) and am happy with its change.*we seem to be only plate tank without parry on defensive stancethe parry thing I don't really care about, there is enough gear that adds to parry in TSO that I can get all I want, and the effect is already starting to become negligible. in the long run, I won't complain if they add it, but I don't care if they don't.*we are only tank class that has no way to buff their own mitigation (warriors got temporary buffs, sk can borrow mit from another fighter in raid)Our defensive stance adds to our mitigation.* we don't have any real effective stoneskin abilities, i know only guardian has these but since we are now in same boat with guardians and have to fight with them over the same raidspots that defizit gets more important.Divine Aura spanks stoneskin in the right hands, not to mention we "can" pre ward ourselves which does just about the same thing.*we have heals that we have to cast and that can get interrupted, also for raidsituations the heals are too low if they are the only way to close the defensive gap between us and a guardian.As far as the heals go, to hell with them, I have not used them in years outside of for spot healing myself while soloing or dueling. if your raiding and have to heal yourself, then your healers are clearly not doing their job.* our heals generate near to no aggro compared to the new taunts, so if we have to help with heals to survive then we are getting in danager of loosing aggro. that is the point why we had amends in first place, but i accept its gone and we just need a solution for the problem that the removal created.read the above reply* we are the only tank class without a aggro generation on getting hit, our new stance has a aggro proc on hitting the mob but combining that with the previous point that we have to heal too so we will most likely hit less than other tanks makes this a bit weaker.I really think this will be a non-issue, considering we should not have to be healing in the first place, and there is plenty of gear that has hate procs on it.So far, after looking at all of my spells on test, I am happier then I have been with the class in years. the only problem I foresee is a mistaken belief rising among the community that we will become useless.I honestly cannot wait until the patch is live, regardless of what anyone else thinks, I believe this is a fantastic thing that happened, and we should all be thanking SoE for finally adding some balance to all the tanks.</blockquote>I dont know what your smoking, but i want some.All tanks get a 15% mit increase on their defensive stance as do we. They also get temporary mitigation buffs, with the exception of the SK that gets a maitained mit buff. What do we get? We get the ability to GIVE our mitigation to other people.There is a lot of gear with parry, that is true but if we had all that extra parry on our defensive stance it would do a few things, first it would help close the avoid gap between us and higher end guardians, also it would open up gear choices a little more becaues it would give us a little more freedom.Divine aura is on a shorter recast now which at least makes it....tolerable but its still woefully inadequate. Any pally that has ever tanked any difficult mob in VP or in the new TSO probably knows well how much of a kick in the gut it is when you dip into the red and you hit DA to save your self and the mob just spikes right through it and your dead. Yes it works, but only at times it is no reliable. Im sorry that is an issue if your going to be MTing for people the reliability needs there. When you get to the point where a good pull thats going well is going to be risked 2/3 of the way through when something happens and the tank dips into the red and has to use an ability that may very well not work well i think raid leaders will start taking issue with that.Our heals are sadly lacking. The reason we were never given temporary mit buffs is because we had heals and wards. The problem with this is that mitigation has not increased all that much, even since KOS where as the average amounts of HP and the amount of incomming dmg has increased substantially. For those with mitigation buffs this hasnt been that big an issue as absorbtion from mit is on a % basis and a diminished returns curve. Heals are raw increases and if you compare them as a % to total HP vs the mit buffs as a % of mit and you will see there is a huge imbalance. Yet at the same time, if you arent using your heals and wards you just arent making use of all your tools.Loosing amends is a huge deal, like others have pointed out, it was not just about hate, it was about the type of hate. Amends was passive hate. Now we have a positional and hate over time but we have no continuous passive hate. We are the only tanks that dont get hate when hit. We are the only ones that have to hit the mob to get hate. Why is that an issue. Open your eyes and take a look, they have not removed the skill penalties on the defensive stance. The reason higher end tanks often tank in offensive, or a lower level version of the defensive stance is because it increases hit rates vs orange con mobs. If you take away the ability to use the offensive stance, and you still have the skills penalty that means we hit the mob less. Thats a problem since our 'passive' hate procs only off of us hitting the mob. The other issue with this is that it will not proc off spells which is kind of an issue for a caster tank isnt it?Look, devs if your reading this do your self a favor. Add some more hate to all of our aoes maybe beef up amends and keep us as a more aoe oriented tank. if you turn paladins into single target tanks we are going to be [Removed for Content], more so if you dont give us the tools to do the job and if you do give us the tools to allow us to do the job your going to get mad hate from guardians for giving them competition for the MT slot. Everything you have done for the last 4 years has put the guard in that postion and its like the one thing they have so i wouldent blame them for being angry. Give us the ability to remain great AoE tanks and 'decent but not as quiete as good as guardians' single target tanks and we will be happy or at least i know i will be happy.OT positions are chosen through a combination of what the class can do and player skill. i said it before and ill say it again, yes i know that pally+warlock/swash surpassed anything a zerker or sk could do, but the soloution was never nerf pallies, it should have been help out zerker/sk. Put pallies/sk's/zerkers on an even footing. If you do that and i loose my job as OT i wont complain because i would at least know then that its due to skill. But you better belive that people are going to be [Removed for Content] if they loose their current already held spot as OT to a zerker or SK because paladins have been nerfed into oblivion.As for betraying, the day my guild leader asks me to betray is the day i retire my tank.

Vulkan_NTooki

01-09-2009, 11:19 AM

<cite>Feindoren@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, as an ex-top tier raid paladin, I don't have any issues with the changes, I am already my current guilds OT, and might even get bumped to MT in light of this and other matters. (btw, I don't want to be MT)Nothing has changed as far as tanking encounters, our myriad of AEs was always how I kept aggro in those fights, Amends almost never had anything to do with it, and we still have all of our AEs.I am not going to miss amends, in fact, recently it was starting to annoy me given my current situation (which I will not go into, as it does not matter anymore) and am happy with its change.*we seem to be only plate tank without parry on defensive stancethe parry thing I don't really care about, there is enough gear that adds to parry in TSO that I can get all I want, and the effect is already starting to become negligible. in the long run, I won't complain if they add it, but I don't care if they don't.*we are only tank class that has no way to buff their own mitigation (warriors got temporary buffs, sk can borrow mit from another fighter in raid)Our defensive stance adds to our mitigation.* we don't have any real effective stoneskin abilities, i know only guardian has these but since we are now in same boat with guardians and have to fight with them over the same raidspots that defizit gets more important.Divine Aura spanks stoneskin in the right hands, not to mention we "can" pre ward ourselves which does just about the same thing.*we have heals that we have to cast and that can get interrupted, also for raidsituations the heals are too low if they are the only way to close the defensive gap between us and a guardian.As far as the heals go, to hell with them, I have not used them in years outside of for spot healing myself while soloing or dueling. if your raiding and have to heal yourself, then your healers are clearly not doing their job.* our heals generate near to no aggro compared to the new taunts, so if we have to help with heals to survive then we are getting in danager of loosing aggro. that is the point why we had amends in first place, but i accept its gone and we just need a solution for the problem that the removal created.read the above reply* we are the only tank class without a aggro generation on getting hit, our new stance has a aggro proc on hitting the mob but combining that with the previous point that we have to heal too so we will most likely hit less than other tanks makes this a bit weaker.I really think this will be a non-issue, considering we should not have to be healing in the first place, and there is plenty of gear that has hate procs on it.So far, after looking at all of my spells on test, I am happier then I have been with the class in years. the only problem I foresee is a mistaken belief rising among the community that we will become useless.I honestly cannot wait until the patch is live, regardless of what anyone else thinks, I believe this is a fantastic thing that happened, and we should all be thanking SoE for finally adding some balance to all the tanks.</blockquote>So.. your a mediocre guardian? Sounds about right... Thats right were we will be after test goes live if it stays in its current version... Maybe u feel like a gods gift to raids as a light guardian, but I'd rather be considered an option vs an equal geared guardian... (since we're no longer considered aoe tanks).

CoLD MeTaL

01-09-2009, 11:43 AM

Loxus

01-09-2009, 12:11 PM

Copy of a post I made over on test.What we need.We need a passive agro increaser. Something that still generates hate while we are stunned, stifled. Perhaps a divine "goody two shoes" aura damage shield that hits for 80 to 100 a swing.We need Divine favor stun dropped from 12 seconds to 6.Take blessed weapon and blessing of the penitent off the stances. We don't mind casting the extra buffs, it makes us feel important.An explaination why pallys are the only tank that didn't recieve a avoidance buff on their def stance. Is it becasue we have the shield effectivness in our AA's? Remember AA's don't balance classes.Change our raid armorment AA to also add 3% crit mit to fighters with the mit increase to non-fighters.You really need to increase our heals by a factor of 2.A 5% increase in all healing and a 5% increase in resistance rates raid wide buff with a 2% increase in stifle resist would be nice to keep us viable for our raid slots. Right now we are still sitting as second string Guardians and since you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a guardian (or an SK for that matter). Why would you choose the second best over the first?

Boli32

01-09-2009, 12:49 PM

Change the Amends line to :1s ticks, 90s duration. 60s recast, can only be maintained on a single enemy; can be cast through stun/stifle/mez/dev nerf bat.And then alter the hate generated to something decent... but not overpowered... so we maintain the single tank target role... but regain our passive hate generation.Add a clause on the defensive stance;when caster casts a beneficial spell; caster will cast "hate pulse" on the curant target of his amends- increase theat by xxx to casterOnce again only single target agro..... but gives us the ability to use our heals.

Niou

01-09-2009, 02:19 PM

Stonewall-Change the recast from 1 min 30 seconds, into 2 min 30 seconds or 3 minutes.Change the Duration from 10 seconds to 20-25 seconds.Change the effect to do an initial stoneskin when the ability is activated, and then an additional stoneskin for each successful shield block during the duration of the ability.Our Ward-When the ward expires, allow 1 stoneskin proc on the target that recieved the ward.