Tank changes and spell merging feedback

[Maveric_LOL]

<p>let me just say congratulations on a patch that somehow managed to [Removed for Content] off just about every class of tank at the same time. Ok now that im through poking fun, down to buisness.</p><p>Theres going to be a lot of outcry im sure on the changes but from my own standpoint i think this update in the broad sense is heading in the right direction its just that it seems some of the details have been overlooked. I cant speak for the other tank classes, im sure they will post their own feedback but i would like to give some pointed feedback from the crusader standpoint.</p><p>First off, the big one. Amends as we know it is gone, it has been completly changed. At first like many others i was kinda angry but then when i sat down and thought about it i have to say that is not the end of the world. Amends in raid has always been a sticky issue, if your pushing enough dps your dps + the dps of your amends target may pull hate off the MT when either of you spike, on the other hand if you have to suddenly pickup the mob you may find you need amends to keep the mob on you over time. It helps with tanking adds, but what if the amends target is slow getting dps on the adds or is say a brigand that has to switch back to debuffing the main mob.</p><p>More self reliance is probably a positive i would say, i can now decide if i want agro, but at the same time its going to affect us in other ways. Amends as a constant stream of hate was great because it allowed us to keep hate comming in when we were warding, stunned, stiffled, etc. If your going to take that away then make the wards and heals faster please. Increase the number of positionals in amends, we were told that while it would be changed it would still be super powerful hate line. increase the number of positionals, increase the duration of the spell and possibly change it to every 3 seconds.</p><p>No one is asking for a 'go afk till the adds come then press amends and go afk again button', but something that generates some kind of hate over time more on par with what we had before.</p><p>Also with amends gone we are going to need more aoe hate gain, i undertand hate is being added to the holy circle line, but what about the brimstone line is that going to get it too?</p><p>Now to the stances. I understand where your going with them, again a step in the right direction, but i just wonder if some things have been overlooked.</p><p>1. Parry was added to the SK defensive stance. Why is is the paladin still only has defence on our stance. If there is logic behind this then please explain i would love to hear the explanation because im sure it must be good as hell to justify that. If it was just overlooked then go ahead and throw it on there and no one will complain any further.</p><p>2. Why have a DPS reduction AND a skills penalty on the defensive stance, the penalty has always been the skill reduction which mattered because it reduces auto attack hit rates. So why now have both?</p><p>On the merging of spells, i suppose it can be a good thing but why remove the dps component of glorious strike while in defensive? If you have procs maxed the thing tends to proc alot but now in defensive we are going to miss out on that dps. We currently have the DPS from that spell even in defensive stance so why are we loosing it now, if you wanted to ADD a hate increase to it when in defensive stance fine but removing the damage component kinda sucks. If putting the damage component of the spell back on it means having to reduce the hate proc slightly then so be it. Infact, the spell has a chance to proc double dmg if the mob is undead, why not just remove the double dmg bit from the defensive stance and make it so it procs dmg and hate only, no double dmg.</p><p>Some other comments i have which are more general.</p><p>1. With amends changed now aoe hate is going to be interesting. Im aware that aoe hate gain in general has been changed which should make it easier but that aside, some other suggestions i have are, Increase the hate on Excoriation, increase the damage amount of smite evil, it hasnt scaled all that well since EOF. increase duration of sigil of heroism.</p><p>2. Add two more triggers to stone wall. Come on you know you want to.</p><p>3. De nerf lay on hands line and make it insta-cast/0 power again please. The nerf has kinda made the spell almost completly obsolete. While your at it you can increase the cast speed of heals and wards a bit.</p><p>4. Either fix or remove the wisdom AA line. Aura of the crusader has pretty much rendered the only decent ability in that line (fear immunity) null and void. As such the entire line is no longer worthwhile for any setup, hell i dont even have it on my mirror anymore.</p><p>In that line combat leadership is pretty poor and hardly worth casting even if you had 8 points in it. Battle leadership is OK at best (now if you added say parry, def, block and maybe melecrit/da to it maybe). the aura of leadership ward is very blah in its current form maybe if the ward was larger with faster regen and the HP regen it used to have was put back on as a group power regen then maybe, but in its current form why bother. fearless morale is ok for fear immunity but the 2% modifyer on that is junk too.</p><p>I would appreciate it if a dev could post and comment and either  say yes we are currently looking at x, or we are changing y or we have decided we cant change z or have to leave it as is becaues it affects another mechanic this way.</p><p>Keep us in the loop and maybe we wont be as [Removed for Content].</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p>As a Guardian I really do not know yet what to think of the changes....really need to see the new system in action under real circumstances...i,e with my guild or my normal groupers. Copying over to test and looking at my new persona numbers while whacking on a test dummy is hardly going to demonstrate how the new changes play out.</p><p>On the surface the changes seem to reduce our "options"...which in general is never a good thing but we will see. I do not like the merging of buffs and stances....let us pick what we want..if it makes no sense and gets us killed..fine we learn not to do it.</p><p>The one thing I think all the fighter classes can agree on is that there is no need for both the DMG reduction and the to-hit reduction on D stance. Simply get rid of the skill reduction. Our DPS is already sacfrificed enough while in D stance....but for the most part we still need to hit to tank...even if we hit for squat. Especially considering the yellow+ cons of raids and TSO instance mobs.</p><p>From a grouping perspective I really doubt we will notice any changes....TSO instances will still be extremely difficult to do with a single target tank at the helm...while the AE tanks will continue to tank all content just fine.</p><p>And this whole forcing us into D stance to tank and O stance to DPS is really going to screw with small groups (2-3 players).</p><p>On raids...while the job of MT appears to have gotten somewhat simpler...I think job of being OT is going to get alot harder.</p><p>They seem to be sticking with the AE -vs- Single Target measure of balance....only it seems they are making the job of AE tanking even more impossible for single target tanks than it already is. Thats probably my biggest concern considering the heavy bias toward AE in TSO.</p><p>I have been playing SOE games for quite sometime now...and why they keep insisting on re-inventing the wheel/using a sledge hammer instead of tweaking/using a small screwdriver to fix things is beyond me.</p>

[Xethren]

<p>I agree with everything you said Rafael, it looks like Guards are getting hosed even more from these changes. The first big one is that TSO is almost exlusively AE stuff, well great, our demand in groups for the new content plummeted already.</p><p>I also agree that the rolling buffs into stances is completely stupid and unnessary, limiting choices further is NEVER a good thing.</p>

[Sir Longsword]

<p>What the h3ll is the reason for making multimob encounters far more difficult for half the tanks ?  Tanks should be able to tank all content the same right? </p><p>What's next, the brilliant idea of single target healing vs. multi target healing?</p>

[Mirander_1]

<p><cite>Maveric_LOL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>let me just say congratulations on a patch that somehow managed to [Removed for Content] off just about every class of tank at the same time. Ok now that im through poking fun, down to buisness.</p></blockquote><p>Lol.  The hallmark of a balanced patch is one where every class affected claims to be nerfed in relation to every other affected class.  In that sense, I'd say the patch must be a success.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Irgun]

<p>Dont let this go live, leave tanks alone plus a few adjustments (if you insist you WANT to adjust something towards taunts)</p><p>- nerf amends down to 25%-30% hategain</p><p>- add parry to paladins defstance</p><p>- remove the daze/stifle-part of divine favor and increase heal and manarate up to 60%</p><p>- change paladins clickie to a passive 1.8 / minute proc called "Divine Mail": "Increases worn armor of the paladins group by 10% for 10 seconds" (the clickie pet is useless - trust me)</p><p>- change paladins tso-set-4-boni to +15 DA / Meleecrit and 10 Haste</p><p>- make 1taunt is equal to 2-3dps => your taunt changes achieved</p><p>Besides you cannot say that aggro management is only the tanks job - everybody has to do his part, like tanks have to help heal (with spells or gear) or help to do dps (classadds / overall dps). There is no such thing like strictly divided tasks anybody has to fullfil and nothing else. Why do you want to cut this versatility down?</p><p>PS: versatility != spell consolidation</p>

[VALKOR]

<p>As a paladin who MTs in raids, both before and after earning my mythical, I was of course nervous about losing Amends but interested to see what they could do in line with the stated goal of making tank aggro more active and exciting instead of passive gain through transfer.</p><p>Unfortunately, I have been handed Rescue, Rescue II (SO AA), and Rescue III (the old Amends).  Giving me the same ability 3 times in a row detracts from the game by simply making tanks more generic.</p><p>A much better idea would be to have Amends steal hate from a single target when I activate it.  Give me say 25% hate steal for 10 seconds with a 1 minute recast (#s subject to tweaking to make it equivalent to whatever the new Rescue III gives).  This way instead of reacting to lost aggro with yet another rescue, I can decide whether to start the encounter with a quick hate boost, save Amends for the assassin's execute or maybe the wizard's fission, etc.  Sure I can just randomly press the button and gain some hate, but I'll obviously do better if I can time it and therein lies the interest and excitement that actually involves some player skill.</p><p>Amends has a long history in the game, and while I have absolutely no problem with it being fixed, you've taken the lazy way out by simply making it Rescue Redux.  The code is already there for hate transfer/steals - time to make them active temporary gains by requiring the player to use them as normal abilities with varying cast/reuse times instead of the current always on passive gain.</p><p>The same logic can be extended to the classes that currently have hate transfer.  Make their passive transfers active abilities that they can use in conjunction with their big hits to prevent aggro rather than just always dumping it with deaggros.  Give us more things to do - not just the same taunt or deaggro repackaged.</p><p>No doubt these ideas or ones like them have been posted before on this board and elsewhere - let's hope the developers really do read these notes and make use of them.</p>