Wizard Accord line being nerfed... (I don't mean the hate portion) [Archive]

Griffinhart

01-08-2009, 01:21 PM

It seems with all the shock and attention that the hate changes are getting the nerf to the accord line is largely going unnoticed.I'm not going to give any opinions on the hate changes. At least not until I see how things work out on test.On the live server Converge is a buff I put on a fighter. When the target is hit there is a 10% that both the target AND the wizard will get back power. There is a Wizard AA specifically for increasing the amount of power healed to over 200. This is in addition to the 4% hate transfer at Master I, which was added to the spell MUCH later in the game.On test, this buff is now self only and reduces my hate by 8% with a hate reducing taunt. It completely removes the power effects of this spell. For me, this is a significant portion of my power regeneration in groups and in raids. It is also a big source of power regen for tanks in my group and raids. This is a serious nerf to the spell.I'd like to suggest setting the spell back to its original form and removing the hate transfer. Then Modifiy the Mail of Frost spell.First get rid of the silly 5min recast and make it a standard buff, then add the same new effects of converge onto this buff.Whatever you do, please do not nerf my primary means of in combat power regen.

Wytie

01-08-2009, 01:35 PM

I imagine this is the same issue for Warlocks as our transfers were the same, granted we arent as reliant on power as a wizzy is, its still a heroic issue none the less as its a large power regen when doing heroic content without a utility class to buff regen for the group.

Detor

01-08-2009, 02:12 PM

<cite>Pail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I imagine this is the same issue for Warlocks as our transfers were the same, granted we arent as reliant on power as a wizzy is, its still a heroic issue none the less as its a large power regen when doing heroic content without a utility class to buff regen for the group.</blockquote>It is - warlock line was changed the same way. I made a post for this already (along with any other things not mentioned in patch notes) here: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=440521" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=440521</a>

Xarcara

01-08-2009, 02:51 PM

im sorry but you cant possibly be serious the amount of power you get back from this as it is now is minimal maybe enough for a single small damage spell, the change is awsome a proc for dehate off my hostile spells is far more perferable than the small amount of power i once got back from this, the havest line gives a better return. Also droping the hate transfer compontet entirely would negate the usefullness of the spell entirely

Windowlicker

01-08-2009, 03:16 PM

The only thing this spell was good for on my Warlock was the power feed. Why was it removed?I'm highly highly dissapointed by this.

Griffinhart

01-08-2009, 03:21 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>im sorry but you cant possibly be serious the amount of power you get back from this as it is now is minimal maybe enough for a single small damage spell, the change is awsome a proc for dehate off my hostile spells is far more perferable than the small amount of power i once got back from this, the havest line gives a better return. Also droping the hate transfer compontet entirely would negate the usefullness of the spell entirely</blockquote>Not kidding at all. I get a significant portion of my power regen from from this line. Especially with the AAs added to it, which I have. It's is MUCH better than the harvest line because it's PASSIVE. Harvest, on the other hand, stifles you for minimal power back. I notice a significant difference when I don't have this spell on the tank. I just did a quick look at my last Hollow Tower run. Durring that run Concurance proc'd enough to replentish me and the tank for 15000 power each in the run. So 30,000 power back between us back in a 40 minute run. That's a personal mana regen equalling 38 power per tick for both me and the tank. How is that not useful or significant?I'm not saying I don't want the hate reduction stuff, I simply don't want to lose a major portion of my power regen. That's why I suggested moving it to another buff. Considering this is a hate rework, why should I want to give up any other abilities not related to hate?

Xarcara

01-08-2009, 03:41 PM

15k in 40mins is significant? I dont know about you but im pushing 13k power i cant imagine that you have less than 8k thats less than two whole power refills in 40mins, there are better options and the power is a proc you only get it in fights when the tank is getting hit. I cant believe you are haveing trouble running out of power in fights in group zones. All im saying is there are better options hell my drink gives me more power back than this in a single tick, as for aa im not manaburn speced IMO its a waste of aa, but again im not telling you how to play i just dont see this being a huge deal i would bet you wont miss it.

Wytie

01-08-2009, 03:49 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>15k in 40mins is significant? I dont know about you but im pushing 13k power i cant imagine that you have less than 8k thats less than two whole power refills in 40mins, there are better options and the power is a proc you only get it in fights when the tank is getting hit. I cant believe you are haveing trouble running out of power in fights in group zones. All im saying is there are better options hell my drink gives me more power back than this in a single tick, as for aa im not manaburn speced IMO its a waste of aa, but again im not telling you how to play i just dont see this being a huge deal i would bet you wont miss it.</blockquote>The amount of power is not the issue here, lets be clear, the issue is a functional peice of this tool has been removed without anything in return power wise.Also remember this gives power to the tank also and this is all INCOMBAT which your drink is no comparison of.Tell us these "better options" that are just as passive..... I think not.

Xarcara

01-08-2009, 03:55 PM

you miss my point its not passive its a proc, that goes off maybe once or twice a fight in a group instance, I dont have how much i gain right in front of me but thats like 800 or so power max a fight, not very much. there are passive power regen if you really think you need it lots of gear has it and i would bet a single peice would offset this agian if you think you need it there are so many ways to get power in fights now, potions, manastone...list goes on we actually have two self power spells and a feed. this spell is very low on the list of things that will get you power if you need it fast.

Griffinhart

01-08-2009, 04:05 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>15k in 40mins is significant? I dont know about you but im pushing 13k power i cant imagine that you have less than 8k thats less than two whole power refills in 40mins, there are better options and the power is a proc you only get it in fights when the tank is getting hit. I cant believe you are haveing trouble running out of power in fights in group zones. All im saying is there are better options hell my drink gives me more power back than this in a single tick, as for aa im not manaburn speced IMO its a waste of aa, but again im not telling you how to play i just dont see this being a huge deal i would bet you wont miss it.</blockquote>The equivilent of FT 38 for me AND my tank is significant. I'm sorry you can't see that. Also, it's not that I am running out of power, but my tank does, frequently. So this is extremely usefull. Not every friend I play with raids and has massive power regen and massive power pools. As for better power options? like what? Remember this is in ADDITION to our outer "power options" This isn't an either or situation. In may not be passive as in not requiring anything, but it is passive in that I don't have to cast it in the middle of a fight. the effect is there and being gained without having to slow DPS down.Still as it was said, this isn't about if you or I find the spell useful, why should we LOSE an ability we currently have. Especially when this GU is about hate and not Power regen?

Xarcara

01-08-2009, 04:14 PM

fine since your changing your tune about why we should lose an ablity. This spell sucks as it is for power regen it needs to have a higher proc rate or more power added and the transfer is laughable, I like the current change i dont think the loss of a small amount of power regen really matters when there is a larger chance i will survive more of these fights because i will draw less agro.i dont see this as a nerf

Wytie

01-08-2009, 04:29 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>once again its a proc, but fine since your changing your tune about why we should lose an ablity. This spell sucks as it is for power regen it needs to have a higher proc rate or more power added and the transfer is laughable, I like the current change i dont think the loss of a small amount of power regen really matters when there is a larger chance i will survive more of these fights because i will draw less agro.i dont see this as a nerf</blockquote>Your right it is a proc.... A proc that I can increase the trigger chance with AA's and proc that increases with my propagation AA buff so ya looking at it on paper it may not seem like much power to you, but I KNOW for a fact that it is for my class because I have 2 ways to boost the proc just myself and I can tell a HUGE difference in instances when I spam alot of AOE's that burns lots of power.So ya I see it as a nerf and that is why, as for the hate part I have no idea till it hits live and I raid and run instances with it or I get a chance to test it on test.

Xarcara

01-08-2009, 04:36 PM

its diffrent for warlocks because you can do that, so its quite possibly the usefullness goes up, i dont play a warlock so i dont know. logging into test i see they havent changed the aa yet so there is a good possiblity that they will add a power component that way i still cant see this as a nerf even for warlocks cause your ablity will only make it proc the dehate more thus increasing your survivablity, and while i could be wrong but i dont think propigation is raid wide so it wouldnt affect the buff on the mt anyway would it?

Wytie

01-08-2009, 04:48 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>and while i could be wrong but i dont think propigation is raid wide so it wouldnt affect the buff on the mt anyway would it?</blockquote>That I dont know, its still my buff, its just that my target is out of group I guess it could go either way, I'll check that tonight. I never thought to look to see if it that mattered just had figured it did till you put it that way.None the less I need the power in instance groups more than in raids anyway for me atleast and thats where we are losing the most usefullness.If they were to add a small self power proc to it, to go along with the self dehate proc I would be fine.

Griffinhart

01-08-2009, 05:42 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>fine since your changing your tune about why we should lose an ablity. This spell sucks as it is for power regen it needs to have a higher proc rate or more power added and the transfer is laughable, I like the current change i dont think the loss of a small amount of power regen really matters when there is a larger chance i will survive more of these fights because i will draw less agro.i dont see this as a nerf</blockquote>Again, you seem to be missing or ignoring the point. there is zero reason we should be losing any power regen of any flavor at all.

Griffinhart

01-08-2009, 05:53 PM

<cite>Pail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>once again its a proc, but fine since your changing your tune about why we should lose an ablity. This spell sucks as it is for power regen it needs to have a higher proc rate or more power added and the transfer is laughable, I like the current change i dont think the loss of a small amount of power regen really matters when there is a larger chance i will survive more of these fights because i will draw less agro.i dont see this as a nerf</blockquote>Your right it is a proc.... A proc that I can increase the trigger chance with AA's and proc that increases with my propagation AA buff so ya looking at it on paper it may not seem like much power to you, but I KNOW for a fact that it is for my class because I have 2 ways to boost the proc just myself and I can tell a HUGE difference in instances when I spam alot of AOE's that burns lots of power.So ya I see it as a nerf and that is why, as for the hate part I have no idea till it hits live and I raid and run instances with it or I get a chance to test it on test.</blockquote>Exactly. I burn a ton of power as well on those AE fights. Certainly not enough to go out of power, but enough to make us do power breaks more often. And of course, my non-raiding guildy Paly runs out of power pretty quick on AE fights as well. It's possible that a wizard with 13K power that groups with Fabled out guildies and friends all the time would never have a use for something like this, but this change isn't just going to affect Fabled out toons. For those legendary equipped players, it's a pretty noticable hit. It could be that Xarcara just isn't seeing it from the perspective of a legendary equipped Wizard. But, once again, if this GU is about changing how hate works, they should do so without changing other abilities. This isn't an either/or sort of change.

Windowlicker

01-08-2009, 07:16 PM

I can't speak for Wizards, but the Warlock power transfer is going off *all* the time. I'd seriously miss it if it wasn't there. It's absolutely not a huge amount of power, but it does help.There's no reason *to* remove it. It's not unbalancing anything.Just another nerf on Sorcerers in a long line of nerfs with no fixes, and no boosts ever.

TsarRasput

01-08-2009, 07:59 PM

Well I can't see this sticking, because it would essentially make the EoF line of AAs completely worthless. Something was most likely missed, so I would /bug it on test_copy, before assuming the sky is falling.

Noaani

01-08-2009, 09:09 PM

<cite>Griffinhart wrote:</cite><blockquote>For me, this is a significant portion of my power regeneration in groups and in raids.</blockquote>Have you ever parsed the amount of power this spell regenerates?

Noaani

01-08-2009, 09:11 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can't speak for Wizards, but the Warlock power transfer is going off *all* the time. </blockquote>Thats because the warlock one is power over time, the wizard one is a larger amount, but is direct.Still... look at what it gives back on a parse, and ask yourself if you would rather that small amount of power or the dehate proc it is turning in too.After a few groups on test, I know which one I prefer.

Detor

01-08-2009, 10:08 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can't speak for Wizards, but the Warlock power transfer is going off *all* the time. </blockquote>Thats because the warlock one is power over time, the wizard one is a larger amount, but is direct.Still... look at what it gives back on a parse, and ask yourself if you would rather that small amount of power or the dehate proc it is turning in too.After a few groups on test, I know which one I prefer.</blockquote>Yeah, no doubt, the old version. By your tone it sounds like you prefer the new one..., perhaps it was just way different for wizards. Old version with AA was a straight 8/9% hate transfer to fighter (so not only did you lose hate, the tank gained the hate) AND gave back about 27 power every 4 seconds. New one is a straight detaunt, tank gains none of the hate, AND you lose a lot of power regen that was on the old version.

Noaani

01-08-2009, 10:27 PM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, no doubt, the old version. By your tone it sounds like you prefer the new one..., perhaps it was just way different for wizards. Old version with AA was a straight 8/9% hate transfer to fighter (so not only did you lose hate, the tank gained the hate) AND gave back about 27 power every 4 seconds. New one is a straight detaunt, tank gains none of the hate, AND you lose a lot of power regen that was on the old version.</blockquote>Point 1: you were not gaining back 27 power every 4 seconds, you were gaining back 27 power every 4 seconds one the proc triggered. Look at ACT after a raid, go to your Power Replenish (inc) field, and look for Mana Boon. You will find that it is probably replenishing about 3 power per second.If the power proc on this does not provide you with power to cast a spell when you otherwise would not have had the power to do so, it is pointless. Look at your power during combat and ask yourself how often that 3 power per second allows you to cast an extra spell.Point 2: the spell does not stack. If you had 2 sorcerers in the group or raid, 1 of them gains a benefit from this spell line as it is on live now, the other simply does not. 4% hate transfer is as much of a benefit for you are 8% hate loss, but the other sorcerers in your group or raid were not losing 4% hate from this spell, only you were. Now they all get the full benefit of it.

maddawg138

01-09-2009, 07:11 AM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can't speak for Wizards, but the Warlock power transfer is going off *all* the time. </blockquote>Thats because the warlock one is power over time, the wizard one is a larger amount, but is direct.Still... look at what it gives back on a parse, and ask yourself if you would rather that small amount of power or the dehate proc it is turning in too.After a few groups on test, I know which one I prefer.</blockquote>Yeah, no doubt, the old version. By your tone it sounds like you prefer the new one..., perhaps it was just way different for wizards. Old version with AA was a straight 8/9% hate transfer to fighter (so not only did you lose hate, the tank gained the hate) AND gave back about 27 power every 4 seconds. New one is a straight detaunt, tank gains none of the hate, AND you lose a lot of power regen that was on the old version.</blockquote>120 power over 16 seconds is NOT something to complain about as that is almost nothing and useless. the hate xfer was useless too and IMO the deaggro proc is much better and actually useful. I dont know how many times i didnt even cast the spell on a fighter just because i forgot about it as it was virtually useless to me. Basically if you have power problems then theres more than just power you need to worry about.

Vanquishir3zi

01-09-2009, 09:10 AM

I will add my voice to this. Why should we lose a nice ability? tanks like this spell for the power protect, I like this spell for the power protect!Please take another look at our buffs, you can add passive de agro to any of our other buffs but give us back our small power return. Wizards have bad enough power issues as it is, no reason to make it worse for us that don't always have an illu in group/raid.

Windowlicker

01-09-2009, 09:48 AM

I know wizards are accustomed to just pressing one button to see a big hit, but Warlocks need to stack things to see the same result. Our power transfer wasn't great on it's own, but needed to be looked at with our other *pathetic* power regen abilities.Our group power regen is extremely small, our single target power regen is small, and our personal regen only hits us for 400 or so power at master level.As with *all* of our other spells, it's part of a bigger picture. We don't need the extra dehate, our epic already kicks us back a position on the hate list every time it proc's.As it stands I can take hits from any heroic content in the game almost. With the changes in AE hate, I'm even less concerned about it. In raids? Since there's virtually zero multi's I'm almost always fighting single target. So hate isn't an issue there either.That's like giving support classes extra personal regen when they don't need it.

Detor

01-09-2009, 10:29 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Point 1: you were not gaining back 27 power every 4 seconds, you were gaining back 27 power every 4 seconds one the proc triggered. Look at ACT after a raid, go to your Power Replenish (inc) field, and look for Mana Boon. You will find that it is probably replenishing about 3 power per second.If the power proc on this does not provide you with power to cast a spell when you otherwise would not have had the power to do so, it is pointless. Look at your power during combat and ask yourself how often that 3 power per second allows you to cast an extra spell.Point 2: the spell does not stack. If you had 2 sorcerers in the group or raid, 1 of them gains a benefit from this spell line as it is on live now, the other simply does not. 4% hate transfer is as much of a benefit for you are 8% hate loss, but the other sorcerers in your group or raid were not losing 4% hate from this spell, only you were. Now they all get the full benefit of it.</blockquote>Point 1: Here's the ACT report from the group I did just yesterday, ACT reports a zone duration of 43:25:Power Replenish INC on me:TYPE DAMAGE EXT DPS AVERAGE MIN HIT MAX HIT RESIST HITS CRITHITS SWINGS TO HIT % CRIT % All 47355 18.18 60.79 4 263 All 779 125 779 100.00 16% Void Distortion 14111 5.42 142.54 20 176 Power 99 66 99 100.00 67% Greater Pond Wash 13010 4.99 154.88 28 182 Power 84 48 84 100.00 57% Mana Boon 12880 4.94 23.00 4 31 Power 560 8 560 100.00 1% Terrible Deeds 6642 2.55 214.26 28 263 Power 31 0 31 100.00 0% Breeze 251 0.10 251.00 251 251 Power 1 0 1 100.00 0% Thunder Slash 251 0.10 251.00 251 251 Power 1 0 1 100.00 0% Manatap 210 0.08 70.00 70 70 Power 3 3 3 100.00 100%Power Replenish INC on tank:TYPE DAMAGE EXT DPS AVERAGE MIN HIT MAX HIT RESIST HITS CRITHITS SWINGS TO HIT % CRIT % All 29565 11.35 41.41 1 382 All 714 60 714 100.00 8% Mana Boon 13864 5.32 23.03 1 31 Power 602 9 602 100.00 1% Greater Pond Wash 12960 4.98 148.97 31 182 Power 87 48 87 100.00 55% Mana Trickle 1178 0.45 65.44 38 68 Power 18 0 18 100.00 0% Breeze 1146 0.44 382.00 382 382 Power 3 0 3 100.00 0% Manatap 210 0.08 70.00 70 70 Power 3 3 3 100.00 100% Thunder Slash 207 0.08 207.00 207 207 Power 1 0 1 100.00 0% Now, if you're saying Mana Boon was completely, totally, useless with the power regen - well, it was neck and neck with the greater pond wash from the leather healer's 5 piece T2 void shard armor zonewide- so you REALLY must believe they need a new, better proc on their armor.Now, point 2:Before I would lose about 6% hate transfer, but it was possible to go up to 8/9%. Say I do an AoE, hits 4 mobs in the encounter for 6k dmg and can't recast for 45 seconds. Before the tank would gain 6% of all that hate I generated, and I would lose 6% of all that hate I created on EACH mob. Everytime.Now - I have to hope a proc goes off (pure dumb luck now as opposed to calculated decisions before) when I cast an AoE, I have to hope they have it set to have multiple chances for each mob in an encounter (because the detaunt as is right now is just one mob, not target encounter, which means it has to go off when I AoE). I have to hope the proc isn't stubborn and I get a streak where it only goes off on the lower recast single target spells and not the AOE longer recast spells. I just plain have to hope it works out ok for me based on however the RNG is feeling that day. So do I prefer the old or the new version? DEFINATELY the old version.

Noaani

01-09-2009, 11:04 AM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now, if you're saying Mana Boon was completely, totally, useless with the power regen - well, it was neck and neck with the greater pond wash from the leather healer's 5 piece T2 void shard armor zonewide- so you REALLY must believe they need a new, better proc on their armor.</blockquote>Pond wash is not confined to 2 targets, it is groupwide. THis means the healers get power out of it, which is immensly more useful than the tank and DPS getting power. Pond wash also stacks. On top of that, no one spends any achievements to improve pond wash. If you consider 4 power per second to be worthwhile, then I guess grats on your 4 power? Curious though... in that whole zone how close did you ever get to running out of power?<blockquote>Before I would lose about 6% hate transfer, but it was possible to go up to 8/9%. Say I do an AoE, hits 4 mobs in the encounter for 6k dmg and can't recast for 45 seconds. Before the tank would gain 6% of all that hate I generated, and I would lose 6% of all that hate I created on EACH mob. Everytime.</blockquote>As far as you are concerned, 4% hate transfer = 8% hate loss in terms of your aggro vs the tanks aggro. For others around you, hate transfers are no longer a significant part of the game. It would have been odd if sorcerers kept their hate transfer when scouts lose theirs.Your deaggro with this new effect will be better under any situation the game has placed players in to date.

Detor

01-09-2009, 11:19 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you consider 4 power per second to be worthwhile, then I guess grats on your 4 power? Curious though... in that whole zone how close did you ever get to running out of power?As far as you are concerned, 4% hate transfer = 8% hate loss in terms of your aggro vs the tanks aggro. For others around you, hate transfers are no longer a significant part of the game. It would have been odd if sorcerers kept their hate transfer when scouts lose theirs.Your deaggro with this new effect will be better under any situation the game has placed players in to date.</blockquote>10, not 4. And that's zonewide. If you count the actual in combat time that number only goes UP from there. You get in a very long fight and yes, that tank is going to wonder where that 14k power regen just went - and there's no reason to nerf power regen when you're just trying to nerf aggro for everybody.If 4% hate transfer is 8% hate loss in terms of relative aggro, then the 8% hate transfer it was before was a 16% hate loss vs the tanks aggro by your own math. MAYBE if the detaunt on the spell was "vs target encounter", but it isn't. Which means the sure thing, happened 100% of the time, 8% loss of hate for me, 8% gain for the tank is WAY above what we have now in terms of hate where a proc has a chance to go off, and then it detaunts one mob.

theriatis

01-09-2009, 11:32 AM

Hi,if i remember correctly, our Hate Transfer with M1 was 4%. So 4% transferred equals the 8% dehate we have on Test, they just converted the Power Replenishment to a Deaggro Proc.Regards, theriatis.

Griffinhart

01-09-2009, 12:41 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Griffinhart wrote:</cite><blockquote>For me, this is a significant portion of my power regeneration in groups and in raids.</blockquote>Have you ever parsed the amount of power this spell regenerates?</blockquote>Yes. I looked at my parse again last night. 8K power returned by this spell in 24 minutes of combat. Not quite as much power as one would get from a heart or shard, but it's automatic without having to click anything or have your summoner cast one in the middle of combat. So, the one spell gave 16K power between me and the tank in that 24 minutes span. Edit:I just dug up my last two VP parses to see where my power was coming from. Concurrence was my second and third largest source of power. Keep in mind, the raiding alliance I am in hasn't killed Druushk yet, so the night was spent in doing nothing but attempting to kill him. The number on the left is the druushk night, the numbers on the right are the previous night where will killed trash and named leading up to druushk. The trash stuff is less mana intensive than the Druushk fight alone.<ul><li>26% Vital Transfer 6%</li><li>12% Soulsiphon 28%</li><li>12% Primeval Awakening 3%</li><li>11% Pondwash 43%</li><li>3% manastone 2%</li><li>6% Harvest Mana 1%</li><li>4% Expire 1%</li><li>2% draw apon essense 1%</li><li>20% Concurrence 15%</li></ul>So 15% to 20% of my power is from converge. Also I checked how much power my tank gets on raids. 18% of incoming power heals in both trash and druushk to the main tank were from converge. It was the second largest source of power for the raids guardian the both nights.

Detor

01-09-2009, 01:05 PM

<cite>theriatis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hi,if i remember correctly, our Hate Transfer with M1 was 4%. So 4% transferred equals the 8% dehate we have on Test, they just converted the Power Replenishment to a Deaggro Proc.Regards, theriatis.</blockquote>You could add another 5% to that with the TSO subclass line equaling a 9% transfer, or 18% dehate as he preferred to word it. Does the new detaunt come even close to erasing 18% of hate with new AA? Nope.

Griffinhart

01-09-2009, 01:18 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, no doubt, the old version. By your tone it sounds like you prefer the new one..., perhaps it was just way different for wizards. Old version with AA was a straight 8/9% hate transfer to fighter (so not only did you lose hate, the tank gained the hate) AND gave back about 27 power every 4 seconds. New one is a straight detaunt, tank gains none of the hate, AND you lose a lot of power regen that was on the old version.</blockquote>Point 1: you were not gaining back 27 power every 4 seconds, you were gaining back 27 power every 4 seconds one the proc triggered. Look at ACT after a raid, go to your Power Replenish (inc) field, and look for Mana Boon. You will find that it is probably replenishing about 3 power per second.If the power proc on this does not provide you with power to cast a spell when you otherwise would not have had the power to do so, it is pointless. Look at your power during combat and ask yourself how often that 3 power per second allows you to cast an extra spell.Point 2: the spell does not stack. If you had 2 sorcerers in the group or raid, 1 of them gains a benefit from this spell line as it is on live now, the other simply does not. 4% hate transfer is as much of a benefit for you are 8% hate loss, but the other sorcerers in your group or raid were not losing 4% hate from this spell, only you were. Now they all get the full benefit of it.</blockquote>In groups I am almost always the lone sorcerer, so stacking issues aren't there. For raids, I'm one of two sorcerers. It's my converge that is placed on the main tank for power and hate and the second sorcerer puts hers on the Main Assist/off tank.As for point 2: My suggestion was to move the hate effect to one of our self buffs so there would be no stacking issues. as for 4% transfer vs 8% reduction, that's not really the concern. The hate stuff can be moved elsewhere, I just do not want to lose an ability I currently have and use. especially one that I have an AA line for that I have put points into. If they have to, create a new self buff for the hate reduction.Again, this isn't about the merits of changing how the deagro stuff works. They are going to give us a replacement to the 9% (with AA) hate transfer. This isn't a matter of us getting either the deagro or the Power Proc. We have BOTH today, we should have BOTH after. It's as simple as that. Because some sorcerers don't find the power proc useful doesn't change the fact that there of many of us that do and rely on that spell.

Xarcara

01-09-2009, 06:36 PM

you keep saying your rely on that spell for power over and over. I dont see it. In a raid i will run out of power without some kind of steady power regen, ie coercer or illusionist, with or without this spell in its current form. I imagine that if you put aa into the eof tree and shadow tree its far more useful for this but the only real reason i would consider doing that is if i was mana burn speced, which i stated earlier is pretty much a waste of aa now.I have never, ever had a tank complain when i forgot to put this spell on them in a group situation i would bet that most tanks dont see much use out of hte power proc eitherIn its current form it does not stack with any other sorc. spell of the same type thus if you have more than one in a raid or group one person loses the effectThe proposed change does away with the transfer, and as someone pointed out they are doing away with all transfers the 8% less hate pretty much translates to the current transfer, the added benifit of a dehate proc on my spells increases my survivablity in raids and groups and so forth.this is a good change and i really thank sony for it the lose of a small power proc is meh in my book if im getting the regen i should in raids it doesnt matter and in groups it never matters.

Detor

01-09-2009, 06:48 PM

A tank that is completely naked except for a helm can't tank. Same goes for naked except for BP, or legs. Power regeneration, just like mitigation, is an additive effect. A little here and little there, and just like a tank becomes able to handle hits, a mage becames able to keep their power up. Point is - they are trying to nerf all hate abilities, that's why (at least for warlocks) the spell has had it's ability to keep a mob off me nerfed. WHY nerf the power regen of it as well? If they randomly picked a piece of void shard armor for each tank class and removed 300 mitigation I'm sure somebody could argue "Well, that 300 mitigation didn't BY ITSELF allow you to tank, so it's ok." The truth however is mitigation is an additive effect, and you can bet there would be A LOT of complaining about a nerf like that.

Noaani

01-09-2009, 07:28 PM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>that's why (at least for warlocks) the spell has had it's ability to keep a mob off me nerfed. </blockquote>Actually, its had its ability to do this greatly increased. It just does it in a different manner. That is why it no longer has a useless power proc.As I have said before, this power proc is not useful. The only time you can ever consider this to be useful is on an encounter that where you have less power at the end of the fight than this proc gave you during that fight. It can give you all the power you want, but if it extra power means nothing if you wern't going to run out in the first place,Oh, and tanks don't run out of power in a good MT group... ever.

Detor

01-09-2009, 08:44 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>that's why (at least for warlocks) the spell has had it's ability to keep a mob off me nerfed. </blockquote>Actually, its had its ability to do this greatly increased. It just does it in a different manner. That is why it no longer has a useless power proc.As I have said before, this power proc is not useful. The only time you can ever consider this to be useful is on an encounter that where you have less power at the end of the fight than this proc gave you during that fight. It can give you all the power you want, but if it extra power means nothing if you wern't going to run out in the first place,Oh, and tanks don't run out of power in a good MT group... ever.</blockquote>Because "in a good MT group" you can overpower things suddenly removing power regen from a spell at the same time you reduce it's hate reduction suddenly means it's ok to remove the power regen? By that logic you could reduce all scout dmg by 50% and say "Well, some out there can do 8k dps, so if we take away 50% you're still doing 4k dps which is fine." with no regard that not EVERYBODY is on that mountain top and can take the hit.There's no question that for the warlock version going from 8 or 9% hate transfer on every spell (I cast Armaggedon on an encounter and it does 5k to each mob, say it's 5 mobs, I just gained 5k hate to 5 mobs, hate transfer kicks in and I only get assigned around 4500 hate to each mob, while tank just went up about 500 hate to each target.) to a detaunt PROC to ONE mob (eg I cast Armaggedon, oops, no hate loss, I cast absolution (3-5k to each one), oops, no hate loss, I cast thunderclap, proc finally goes off, ONE mob hates me for 2k-4k less, 4 other mobs in encounter now hate me 1k more EACH than they did with the way the spell was before AND the tank has 1k less hate to each mob than he would have had with it the old way.) Only way the hate part might not be a nerf is if it said it detaunted vs target encounter, not just target. Even then the old way was surefire, new way is dumb luck.

gchouin

01-09-2009, 08:59 PM

<cite>Griffinhart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>fine since your changing your tune about why we should lose an ablity. This spell sucks as it is for power regen it needs to have a higher proc rate or more power added and the transfer is laughable, I like the current change i dont think the loss of a small amount of power regen really matters when there is a larger chance i will survive more of these fights because i will draw less agro.i dont see this as a nerf</blockquote>Again, you seem to be missing or ignoring the point. there is zero reason we should be losing any power regen of any flavor at all. </blockquote>Eh go play your wizzy on test with a tank trying to hold agro off you. Power will not be an issue. You are going to have to count to 5 inbetween every cast or u will be tanking. Plenty of time to get your power up!

Noaani

01-09-2009, 09:27 PM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because "in a good MT group" you can overpower things suddenly removing power regen from a spell at the same time you reduce it's hate reduction suddenly means it's ok to remove the power regen?</blockquote>If they were giving us nothing to compenstate, I would be complaining more than you are.However, they are taking a useless "utility" and giving us something we actually need, and with the rest of the changes happening, will probably need even more than we do now. I am working on the rather safe assumption that having both a power proc and deaggro proc is simply not an option, and of the two, the deaggro proc is by far the better option.I seriously fail to understand how any sorcerer could disagree with that.

Detor

01-09-2009, 09:40 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because "in a good MT group" you can overpower things suddenly removing power regen from a spell at the same time you reduce it's hate reduction suddenly means it's ok to remove the power regen?</blockquote>If they were giving us nothing to compenstate, I would be complaining more than you are.However, they are taking a useless "utility" and giving us something we actually need, and with the rest of the changes happening, will probably need even more than we do now. I am working on the rather safe assumption that having both a power proc and deaggro proc is simply not an option, and of the two, the deaggro proc is by far the better option.I seriously fail to understand how any sorcerer could disagree with that.</blockquote>I seriously fail to understand why you believe we should have our power regeneration reduced, BECAUSE they decided to meanwhile cram a nerf to our ability to deal with hate down our throats against our wishes. If the mechanics of the spell are such that they can't have the dehate proc and the power proc at the same time AND they feel we absolutely MUST have the nerf to our ability to control hate then they should go ahead and put in the extra work to make a separate additional spell that replicates the functionality of our power regeneration we had before. Or, they could just have left the spell alone the way it was and avoided the whole headache if they didn't want to do a lot of extra work, I certainly would be happier if the warlock version had been because of the things I pointed out already numerous times about why it's worse for us now than it was before.

Noaani

01-09-2009, 10:02 PM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If the mechanics of the spell are such that they can't have the dehate proc and the power proc at the same time AND they feel we absolutely MUST have the nerf to our ability to control hate</blockquote>I didn't say anything about mechanics allowing it, because there is no reason for it to not be possible.This is not a nerf to out hate managment. I am not telling you this based on what the buffs say, or what I think they do, I am saying this based on how much easier it is for me to not pull aggro with this buff on test. If I have it on, I am able to DPS more. If I take it off, I pull aggro faster. The difference is noticable on test without the need to parse.Seriously, anyone with power issues can get some power procs, some regen gear or a bard or chanter. Most of that gear can be obtained with effects that also increase DPS, so you are not losing out on much. You will find more power a lot easier than you will find less hate.We are being handed a gift here, stop trying to hand it back.

Detor

01-09-2009, 10:18 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If the mechanics of the spell are such that they can't have the dehate proc and the power proc at the same time AND they feel we absolutely MUST have the nerf to our ability to control hate</blockquote>I didn't say anything about mechanics allowing it, because there is no reason for it to not be possible.This is not a nerf to out hate managment. I am not telling you this based on what the buffs say, or what I think they do, I am saying this based on how much easier it is for me to not pull aggro with this buff on test. If I have it on, I am able to DPS more. If I take it off, I pull aggro faster. The difference is noticable on test without the need to parse.Seriously, anyone with power issues can get some power procs, some regen gear or a bard or chanter. Most of that gear can be obtained with effects that also increase DPS, so you are not losing out on much. You will find more power a lot easier than you will find less hate.We are being handed a gift here, stop trying to hand it back.</blockquote>I can tell you that for a warlock the new version makes it harder to keep aggro off you than the old one did. You can't go on test and put on the old version, so there's simply no way to test it in the same environment like you say. You say you pull aggro faster with no buff - well guess what, on live you would pull aggro faster without the 8/9% hate transfer as well. The fact that you pull aggro faster without the hate detaunt isn't a surprise, but it means nothing since you would pull aggro faster on live without the hate transfer as well.Warlocks are being nerfed, in a big way hate wise, and at the same time they're trying to nerf our power regen (heck, not just reduce, but completely remove our power regen from this buff). If it isn't the mechanics preventing the power regen then why make this change as well? Being handed a gift? Things must be VERY different over there for wizards, it certainly isn't a gift for warlocks (not unless they change it to detaunt vs target ENCOUNTER). Not to mention that we wouldn't even NEED a "gift" if they weren't nerfing everybody in huge ways. If you run your car into my house and it collapses, then you give me a replacement TV and nothing else to "make up for it" (oh, and then you steal my notebook on your way out of my hotel room just for kicks ala taking away power regen just for the fun of it), guess what - you don't get to act surprised that I'm still upset with you and not extremely pleased you gave me a "gift".

Xarcara

01-09-2009, 10:48 PM

they are doing away with transfers across the board the only class that kept a transfer was coercers and it was reduced it boggles my mind that people are actually complaining about this change. though i understand a bit better about the hate thing than about the loss of the power procto address the hate thing you do realize that the entire system is changing maybe you should test them before you complain about it, if you have i retract this statement.

Detor

01-09-2009, 11:08 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>to address the hate thing you do realize that the entire system is changing maybe you should test them before you complain about it, if you have i retract this statement.</blockquote>Funny thing about test is how when you go to talk to anybody it's something like "Crusadaxxxxx" - there's X's all over the place. Cast an AoE and find more than half the mobs running at you. Threat isn't saved to the log file unfortunately so there's no way to copy/paste numbers to help reinforce just what a big nerf we're all about to take. Unfortunately with a paladin anyway it tends to go "Sorry, my encounter taunt was resisted, and I have no other way to generate more AoE hate that I'm not using already." Of course I suppose it won't take long after it goes to live for people to learn to avoid paladins - they seem to be getting it worst than any of the other tank classes.

Noaani

01-10-2009, 12:10 AM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Warlocks are being nerfed, in a big way hate wise</blockquote>Wrong. So very very wrong.Hate transfer has a cap, and even without your buff, most MTs are over this cap. The 5 points you spent in it to make it 'better' does nothing more than lower the effect of every other hate transfer on the tank, as once this cap is reached, all hate transfers are scaled back.He is losing hate by having a warlock place this on him for single target fights, and not gaining anything worthwhile on AE fights (if he was gaining something worthwhile, warlocks would not be pulling aggro and dying).Sometimes I wish people would understand game mechanics before they decide what they think is better or not, and begin arguing their point based on half knowledge, but then sometimes it can be fun to point game mechanic facts out to people half way through an argument...

Noaani

01-10-2009, 12:20 AM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>to address the hate thing you do realize that the entire system is changing maybe you should test them before you complain about it, if you have i retract this statement.</blockquote>Funny thing about test is how when you go to talk to anybody it's something like "Crusadaxxxxx" - there's X's all over the place. Cast an AoE and find more than half the mobs running at you. Threat isn't saved to the log file unfortunately so there's no way to copy/paste numbers to help reinforce just what a big nerf we're all about to take. Unfortunately with a paladin anyway it tends to go "Sorry, my encounter taunt was resisted, and I have no other way to generate more AoE hate that I'm not using already." Of course I suppose it won't take long after it goes to live for people to learn to avoid paladins - they seem to be getting it worst than any of the other tank classes.</blockquote>Paladins are fine for single target encounters, which is how they sre supposed to be by design.Their 35k taunt tends to help them hold aggro well. In terms of holding aggro, its about 3 times as good as rescue.As to threat and log files, what is it you would want to use?and what point would you be proving with it?

Detor

01-10-2009, 12:22 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>He is losing hate by having a warlock place this on him for single target fights, and not gaining anything worthwhile on AE fights (if he was gaining something worthwhile, warlocks would not be pulling aggro and dying).Sometimes I wish people would understand game mechanics before they decide what they think is better or not, and begin arguing their point based on half knowledge, but then sometimes it can be fun to point game mechanic facts out to people half way through an argument...</blockquote>What's hilarious is the guy claiming that the other person doesn't understand game mechanics is the one who just said that an effect of "-Transfers 8% of all hate to target fighter ally" means the tank "is losing hate by having a warlock place this on him". I would have thought hate transfer from warlock to tank was pretty self explanatory, but here's a hint: It doesn't make the tank LOSE hate. And I'm the one who doesn't understand game mechanics in this conversation? HA!

Tandy

01-10-2009, 12:31 AM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>He is losing hate by having a warlock place this on him for single target fights, and not gaining anything worthwhile on AE fights (if he was gaining something worthwhile, warlocks would not be pulling aggro and dying).Sometimes I wish people would understand game mechanics before they decide what they think is better or not, and begin arguing their point based on half knowledge, but then sometimes it can be fun to point game mechanic facts out to people half way through an argument...</blockquote>What's hilarious is the guy claiming that the other person doesn't understand game mechanics is the one who just said that an effect of "-Transfers 8% of all hate to target fighter ally" means the tank "is losing hate by having a warlock place this on him". I would have thought hate transfer from warlock to tank was pretty self explanatory, but here's a hint: It doesn't make the tank LOSE hate. And I'm the one who doesn't understand game mechanics in this conversation? HA!</blockquote>I beleive what he meant is the fact hate trans is capped at 50%. So in a raid setting, if you have assassin and coercer trans on MT that IS 50%. the caster 8% pushes the tank over the 50% cap, but instead of being ignored I think it reduces the other trans a bit and factors that one in. AND if that is the case, and the warlock is bad DPS, in theory that could result in hate loss for the tank.

Detor

01-10-2009, 12:35 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins are fine for single target encounters, which is how they sre supposed to be by design.Their 35k taunt tends to help them hold aggro well. In terms of holding aggro, its about 3 times as good as rescue.</blockquote>Too bad for those paladins then that they just NOW are being designed for this, and there was no inkling that they were going to be this way when just about anybody that has a high level paladin now was first creating a paladin. They will lose all master I, adept IIIs, or epic progress if they betray to shadowknight in an attempt to gain back any of what they are having taken from them. OH, and to top it off the short reuse timers on their single target+encounter taunt ends up being LESS taunt to even ONE mob (not to mention multimob encounters) than the multitarget tanks. The so called "uber taunt" that you mention can only be cast on 1 thing, every 1 minute. Wow, sure hope nobody does 35k dmg to the mob in under a minute at lvl80! Oh why worry about that, not like anybody will attain the insane DPS of 600dps in order to overpower that "uber taunt" you mentioned. (sarcasm if you didn't notice) And beware if you take the paladin in any place where multimob encounters are common like....TSO instances.Single Target Encounter - Casting single target + group target short reuse tauntsPaladin: up to 5,642 threatShadowknight: up to 7,839 threat - winner.Multitarget encounter - Casting single target + group target reuse tauntsPaladin: up to 5,642 to one target, ONLY up to 1671 versus other targets in encounterShadowknight: up to 7,839 to one target, but up to 4,457 to every other mob in encounter - winner.

Vanquishir3zi

01-10-2009, 12:36 AM

Noaani plz stop trying to talk for the entire Wizard and Warlock population. Noaani I am glad you never have to worry about power regen but please grasp the fact other people do! The power regen is far from useless and to claim that boggles my mind.The power feed is helpful to a lot of us, those of us that use it want it put back in some form plz devs!Thank-you.

Detor

01-10-2009, 12:39 AM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I beleive what he meant is the fact hate trans is capped at 50%. So in a raid setting, if you have assassin and coercer trans on MT that IS 50%. the caster 8% pushes the tank over the 50% cap, but instead of being ignored I think it reduces the other trans a bit and factors that one in. AND if that is the case, and the warlock is bad DPS, in theory that could result in hate loss for the tank.</blockquote>Yeah, but do you see how specific that has to be? IF you are in a raid, and IF the tank has 50% other hate transfer on him, and then IF the warlock is bad DPS - then you're making him gain less hate than he could be. What if the warlock isn't bad? What if you aren't in a raid? (which I'm usually not) Normal groups, at least not the ones I was in, didn't hit this 50% cap - so, for warlocks like me, in a GROUP setting, it is a nerf to go from 8/9% hate transfer on all spells (AoE included) to a detaunt on one mob that has a random chance of going off. It's pure spin for this guy to try to say 3-4 "if this and if that and if this also, oh and finally if this is true too THEN it isn't a nerf."

Noaani

01-10-2009, 12:57 AM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The so called "uber taunt" that you mention can only be cast on 1 thing, every 1 minute. Wow, sure hope nobody does 35k dmg to the mob in under a minute at lvl80! </blockquote>Thats 35k in 20 seconds (more than 35k actually). Its not enough to hold aggro in itself (unlike how this particular lone works on live), but if you open an encounter up with it, then use taunts and attacks in the same manner as every other tank in the game, you will have better single targetr aggro control than any other fighter. if you body pull as a paladin (common in TSO), then the added 1 position hate increaser means you pull hate off your healer before the 35k taunt takes affect as well.The only issue I see with it is that a lot of paladins will use it as second (third) rescue, only using it when they lose aggro.

Noaani

01-10-2009, 01:05 AM

<cite>Vanquisher@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Noaani plz stop trying to talk for the entire Wizard and Warlock population. Noaani I am glad you never have to worry about power regen but please grasp the fact other people do! The power regen is far from useless and to claim that boggles my mind.The power feed is helpful to a lot of us, those of us that use it want it put back in some form plz devs!Thank-you. </blockquote>Please explain to me a single time this power proc has been *actually* useful to you.In order for it to be useful, you would need to end an encounter with less power than this spell has provided you, otherwise it has not provided you with anything useful other than some sort of misguided self satisfaction that you have a power proc and thus are alright.Those of us that understand the game are happy with the change in its current from devs!Thank-you.

Noaani

01-10-2009, 01:08 AM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would have thought hate transfer from warlock to tank was pretty self explanatory, but here's a hint: It doesn't make the tank LOSE hate. And I'm the one who doesn't understand game mechanics in this conversation? HA!</blockquote>It does if the swash or assassin that has a hate transfer on the tank is outparsing the warlock, which happens on 95% of single target encounters.Fortuantly for you, since the hate transfer os this buff is so small, the decrease to the scout hate transfer is minimal, about as minimal as the power regen from this buff actually... both basically insignificant.

Detor

01-10-2009, 01:14 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The so called "uber taunt" that you mention can only be cast on 1 thing, every 1 minute. Wow, sure hope nobody does 35k dmg to the mob in under a minute at lvl80! </blockquote>Thats 35k in 20 seconds (more than 35k actually). Its not enough to hold aggro in itself (unlike how this particular lone works on live), but if you open an encounter up with it, then use taunts and attacks in the same manner as every other tank in the game, you will have better single targetr aggro control than any other fighter. if you body pull as a paladin (common in TSO), then the added 1 position hate increaser means you pull hate off your healer before the 35k taunt takes affect as well.The only issue I see with it is that a lot of paladins will use it as second (third) rescue, only using it when they lose aggro.</blockquote>Yeah, just what every group wants, a tank that can pull just one mob, one encounter at a time, and needs only up to 1 minute before he can pull again.Look at how much hate a paladin's two main taunts generate every 10 seconds, and then what a shadowknight's generate every 10 seconds. Paladins are suppose to be the single target specialty and shadowknights the multitarget specialty? Yet, against a single target a shadowknight will taunt for 7,839 every 10 seconds, and a paladin 5,642 every 10 seconds? And it only gets worse in a multimob situation. That's the base taunts. If you throw in things like the paladin 1 minute recast taunt then you also have to factor in things like shadowknight's "everytime target is damaged mob threat is increased" spells.

Noaani

01-10-2009, 02:13 AM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, just what every group wants, a tank that can pull just one mob, one encounter at a time, and needs only up to 1 minute before he can pull again.</blockquote>Most groups and raids are not killing mobs faster than 1 every 30 seconds, for a single target zone, this means that a paladin has absolute rock solid aggro on 50% of the mobs in the zone. That is better than any other fighter on live (though paladins on live have better aggro than that).Its neither something to complain about, nor something that has any relation to the OP.

Vanquishir3zi

01-10-2009, 02:46 AM

Noaani I can see you think of the game from your little box and are unable to look outside it. Lets just say outside your box the power regen is useful. Those of us who push our chars to limits outside of your box understand its usefulness and I along with many others will miss this ability!Just because you won't miss it does that mean everyone else is wrong?! There is no reason to lose power regen over these hate changes except cutting corners. If they remove the power regen our aa lines need to be changed which is a lot more work for the devs..... I am not going to talk to you directly anymore Noaani as you have made your mind up about what YOU want. I will stand up for what I and others want though.Vanq.

Xarcara

01-10-2009, 03:31 AM

im really not trying to be mean but its going to come out that way, in its current form with and adept 3 convergence has a 10% chance to proc 99 power to the tank and mage everytime the mob autoattacks, with a 3% hate transfer to said tank all the time. the master gives a sliver more power and 1% more transfer....Woopty freaken do. Heads up fokes this is a spell designed for long encounters to even remotely be useful, so in group encounters worthless i dont even bother casting it in groups cause if its up or not if the tank cant do its job i get aggro period, all tanks get a dehate that they can put on a group memeber, moderate, amends to name a few(yes i know amends is changing but we arent disscusing that) which all far supercide the pathatic transfer we can put on them, and the power componet is laughable even with aa in a group situation its simply not going to proc enough to matter.In raid situations yes this could be usefull if you dont have an enchanter or a bard as far as power is concernce and if you dont have a swash or assasin or any other class that can feed hate to the tank. Do you see the proablem its a raid spell that is dwarfed significatnly by almost every other class, and only one scorcer really gets the benifit,the change is a self buff and usefull in all situations and i dont have ot worry if mine is going to overwrite my fellow warlock or wizardIts a crappy worthless power proc people...let it go, make way for the better one

Detor

01-10-2009, 10:33 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, just what every group wants, a tank that can pull just one mob, one encounter at a time, and needs only up to 1 minute before he can pull again.</blockquote>Most groups and raids are not killing mobs faster than 1 every 30 seconds, for a single target zone, this means that a paladin has absolute rock solid aggro on 50% of the mobs in the zone. That is better than any other fighter on live (though paladins on live have better aggro than that).Its neither something to complain about, nor something that has any relation to the OP.</blockquote>Well, the smaller TSO dungeons can tend to have at least 80 encounters. If the groups you normally hunt in take longer than 1.5 minutes for each mob....how's it feel to take 3-6 hours to run each TSO instance? I think your groups are killing mobs faster than you think if you believe you're already taking longer than 1.5 minutes per mob.If YOU are taking 3-6 hours to run TSO instances - let me assure you, MOST groups are not like that for the rest of us. And if you aren't taking that long then I know that whole thing where you claim your group doesn't kill mobs faster than every 1 minute and 30 seconds isn't true.

Detor

01-10-2009, 10:44 AM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>im really not trying to be mean but its going to come out that way, in its current form with and adept 3 convergence has a 10% chance to proc 99 power to the tank and mage everytime the mob autoattacks, with a 3% hate transfer to said tank all the time. the master gives a sliver more power and 1% more transfer....Woopty freaken do. Heads up fokes this is a spell designed for long encounters to even remotely be useful, so in group encounters worthless i dont even bother casting it in groups cause if its up or not if the tank cant do its job i get aggro period, all tanks get a dehate that they can put on a group memeber, moderate, amends to name a few(yes i know amends is changing but we arent disscusing that) which all far supercide the pathatic transfer we can put on them, and the power componet is laughable even with aa in a group situation its simply not going to proc enough to matter.</blockquote>Heh - use amends to support the arguement for why it should change, then try to head off the conversation by saying "Oh, but let's not talk about amends"? You can't bring it up to support why your belief is true, to only turn around and say you don't want to talk about it. You bring it up, it's fair game to talk about - you've connected it to the topic at hand.So, Master I transferred 9% of all hate with AAs, AND generated substantial power for the tank (and yes, I've seen tanks finish a fight so low on power that the power from this regen helped them get off more abilities). That 9% was for ALL hate I generated, on every spell. Now the new version gets rid of less hate for me, is a CHANCE, eg let's hope I'm lucky, to detaunt ONE mob (only way it might be desireable is vs target encounter), and then to boot they removed the power part completely. It's like a dev said "Hey, let's kick them in the head after they've fallen from the kick to the groin." They've nerfed the hate portion, which is what they meant to do, they're nerfing it for everybody (It'll make the game hell when this first goes to live until people learn the 'single target' tank classes are totally screwed and start avoiding them for TSO groups) - there is no need to nerf the power regen at the same time. THAT is the main point - There is no reason to nerf the power regeneration. Why do it?

Vanquishir3zi

01-10-2009, 11:14 AM

Do people realise we have power drains in this game? Any fight that happens this spell can be very useful.

Xarcara

01-10-2009, 11:59 AM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>im really not trying to be mean but its going to come out that way, in its current form with and adept 3 convergence has a 10% chance to proc 99 power to the tank and mage everytime the mob autoattacks, with a 3% hate transfer to said tank all the time. the master gives a sliver more power and 1% more transfer....Woopty freaken do. Heads up fokes this is a spell designed for long encounters to even remotely be useful, so in group encounters worthless i dont even bother casting it in groups cause if its up or not if the tank cant do its job i get aggro period, all tanks get a dehate that they can put on a group memeber, moderate, amends to name a few(yes i know amends is changing but we arent disscusing that) which all far supercide the pathatic transfer we can put on them, and the power componet is laughable even with aa in a group situation its simply not going to proc enough to matter.</blockquote>Heh - use amends to support the arguement for why it should change, then try to head off the conversation by saying "Oh, but let's not talk about amends"? You can't bring it up to support why your belief is true, to only turn around and say you don't want to talk about it. You bring it up, it's fair game to talk about - you've connected it to the topic at hand.So, Master I transferred 9% of all hate with AAs, AND generated substantial power for the tank (and yes, I've seen tanks finish a fight so low on power that the power from this regen helped them get off more abilities). That 9% was for ALL hate I generated, on every spell. Now the new version gets rid of less hate for me, is a CHANCE, eg let's hope I'm lucky, to detaunt ONE mob (only way it might be desireable is vs target encounter), and then to boot they removed the power part completely. It's like a dev said "Hey, let's kick them in the head after they've fallen from the kick to the groin." They've nerfed the hate portion, which is what they meant to do, they're nerfing it for everybody (It'll make the game hell when this first goes to live until people learn the 'single target' tank classes are totally screwed and start avoiding them for TSO groups) - there is no need to nerf the power regen at the same time. THAT is the main point - There is no reason to nerf the power regeneration. Why do it?</blockquote>9% with aa, its still 4% without as has been explained 8% translates to 4% and im 100% sure that the aa's your talking about will be updated to fit the new spell proably boosting the straight dehate to like 16% or somthing the new version gets ride of less hate how can you even think that you are comparing a spell that you ahve improved with aa to a straight spell that the aa's havent been updated for yet oviously they arent going to leave the current aa's in the game for it why not wait for that change before you make this comparison, and yes im sure they will change it before it goes live(waste of aa imo but thats my opinion) and you arent even considering the dehate proc that goes off that you as a warlock have the ablity to make happen more offten i dont see how you think this is a nerf on your hate."(It'll make the game hell when this first goes to live until people learn the 'single target' tank classes are totally screwed and start avoiding them for TSO groups)"cause you play a tank class and have tested the changes significantly and know its going to suck, I'm not defending sony here but its not live yet and alot of work has gone into this change I dont think that they would implement somthiung that will be game breaking we have a few weeks to test it and they have time to work the bugs out give it a chance before you scream the sky is falling.and to your last comment the power proc is worthless but yes we did lose it...darn...meh im over it.The better question is why didnt they change concusive to be more usefull faster casting speed does not change the fact that it hits for more damage than the dehate is worth.

Detor

01-10-2009, 12:19 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>9% with aa, its still 4% without as has been explained 8% translates to 4% and im 100% sure that the aa's your talking about will be updated to fit the new spell proably boosting the straight dehate to like 16% or somthing the new version gets ride of less hate how can you even think that you are comparing a spell that you ahve improved with aa to a straight spell that the aa's havent been updated for yet oviously they arent going to leave the current aa's in the game for it why not wait for that change before you make this comparison, and yes im sure they will change it before it goes live(waste of aa imo but thats my opinion) and you arent even considering the dehate proc that goes off that you as a warlock have the ablity to make happen more offten i dont see how you think this is a nerf on your hate."(It'll make the game hell when this first goes to live until people learn the 'single target' tank classes are totally screwed and start avoiding them for TSO groups)"cause you play a tank class and have tested the changes significantly and know its going to suck, I'm not defending sony here but its not live yet and alot of work has gone into this change I dont think that they would implement somthiung that will be game breaking we have a few weeks to test it and they have time to work the bugs out give it a chance before you scream the sky is falling.</blockquote>I'm not comparing a spell with AA to one without, I have put the same AA points in the same place on live and test (YES, I've been on test! I'm not just going off hearsay or patch notes, I've been on test.) So for me on live, it's 8% (I don't have the Master I), on test it's a straight detaunt (all testing done with SAME AAs) proc to one target only. Which means I go from a consistent 8% hate loss on every spell (AoE or single target), to a CHANCE to lose aggro to one target with the same AA count. It's a nerf to my hate reduction abilities - there's no doubt in my mind about that. Just like basic math can tell you that 0 is less than 1, pure math can show the warlock version is being severely nerfed, and not a big surprise - testing it shows the same thing.They wanted us to go to test - and from test the conclusion is yes, paladins can't hold aggro worth a crap, one AoE and you have half the encounter on you. Shadowknights have a lot more ability to generate hate so they might be ok. I didn't test with a guardian, but seeing as how they claim the difference between paladins and shadowknights is single target vs multitarget it tends to tell me that single target tanks in general are getting the short end of the stick and WILL NOT be able to hold aggro in a TSO instance group. Either that or it's JUST paladins that are in serious trouble.

Xarcara

01-10-2009, 12:41 PM

they havent updated the aa on test yet at least they hadnt last time i was there both aa's for convergence still were for the Power proc and the TRANSFER, neiter of wich would affect the new spell

Detor

01-10-2009, 01:02 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>they havent updated the aa on test yet at least they hadnt last time i was there both aa's for convergence still were for the Power proc and the TRANSFER, neiter of wich would affect the new spell</blockquote>The warlock AA has already been updated, it says it increases the hate of the detaunt proc. With the same number of AAs it reduces threat by a much smaller amount than the spell does on live. So the hate portion is way lower AND we lose the power regen entirely (27 power every 4 seconds when it procs, with a proc rate of 14% when tank is hit - and a duration of 16 seconds. It effectively was 27 power every 4 seconds for tank, and 27 power every 4 seconds for warlock almost the entire duration of each fight since your tank was probably getting hit more than 6 times in any given 20 second period with the way TSO mobs hit.I do think I figured out what's happening though. Guys - whoever suggested nerfing almost every class in the game all in the same patch - yes, whoever that is, he's a double agent! He's working for another company and he's tricked you guys into thinking he's on your team. It's the most logical conclusion from the reaction of the player base to these changes. I know they say way more people will complain than acknowledge they like something, but the percents don't lie. You can almost count on a single hand the number of people that say they like the way things are changing. They knew this would be the reaction too, that's why aeralik went on damage control before the update notes came out going around trying to assure people it wasn't as bad as it really looked.

iceriven2

01-10-2009, 02:59 PM

to be honest i personally considered this spell almost entirely useless... only redeeming factor it had was the xfer, which in most settings didnt really matter so much...let me explain my opinion...I consider myself a casual raider but a hardcore player...its a term my "average" player friends gave me. what does it mean?, i raid 1-2 times a week, only have 3-4 fabled items but most of my items came from rok instances, few new tso stuff. So i am not decked out. But even without mythical i call pull 5k dps in a grp. i know my class very well, wizard btw. 2 kinds of grp i tend to get are...first..is the pug... srry most the average player is just that average, hell the average player thinks 1k dps in grp is f,ckin uber. so when your doing 5k most pug tanks dont know how to handle that... from my years of experience, since launch and i have done many pugs, is either tank is good and keeps agro or they suck and no matter how many buffs u get to help it doesnt... there is never that inbetween where a little extra helps..BUT..thinking about this i guess the average wizard that does less then half the dps i can do a little will help on those sucky tanks, but that just me specualting b/c its not within my persoal experience..second, guild, close friends from other guilds.... good grp where we can go fast and get things done with little bs... is agro an issue? sometimes, to be honest the dps i do the xfer doesnt matter... good guardian with moderate, dirge and the xfer on i can still pull agro so even with good tanks its to little to me to matter...power feed.... in my situations it is as useless as the warlock spell 'curse of luclin"... last time a little power played a roll in my gaming experience is when i was lvl 10... a week after launch...Its so little and the way the games has worked for ME i either have power or i dont, and this spell even with other stuff has never helped me in a situation where if i just had a little more it mattered...if i was oop or close to and my dps in grp raid mattered, we were dead anyway b/c healers were oop too..just writing this,, i can see both sides of the tracks.. the hardcore know your class well ppl it means sh't...but your average player where every little extra matters and is the differnce btween death/wipe in a instance/raid or success i guess maybe i can help...BUT for ME this spell sucks and i like the changes....even without the power....

Noaani

01-10-2009, 11:45 PM

<cite>Vanquisher@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason to lose power regen over these hate changes except cutting corners.</blockquote>Actually, it would have been easier to not change the power regen at all, hence the removal of it is the opposite of cutting corners.You have still failed to mention one instance that this is actually useful. 2 - 4 power a second is not useful when you are casing spells that use up 300+ power, and are in fights that last no longer than a minute. This is not about pushing characters to any limit, although if you were pushing your character to any limit as a sorcerer, you would welcome the dehate taunt, as the first limit a sorcerer reaches is pulling aggro and dying.As to me not missing it thus everyone else being wrong... people are wrong because they don't know what they are talking about, not because I won't miss it. I won't miss it because I know what I am talking about. You are right in that there is a connection there, but you missed why that connection exists.

Noaani

01-10-2009, 11:46 PM

Noaani

01-10-2009, 11:50 PM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most groups and raids are not killing mobs faster than 1 every 30 seconds, for a single target zone, this means that a paladin has absolute rock solid aggro on 50% of the mobs in the zone. That is better than any other fighter on live (though paladins on live have better aggro than that).</blockquote>Well, the smaller TSO dungeons can tend to have at least 80 encounters. If the groups you normally hunt in take longer than 1.5 minutes for each mob....how's it feel to take 3-6 hours to run each TSO instance? I think your groups are killing mobs faster than you think if you believe you're already taking longer than 1.5 minutes per mob.If YOU are taking 3-6 hours to run TSO instances - let me assure you, MOST groups are not like that for the rest of us. And if you aren't taking that long then I know that whole thing where you claim your group doesn't kill mobs faster than every 1 minute and 30 seconds isn't true.</blockquote>Thats something funky you got going on there...I said a group does not usually kill 1 mob in less than 30 seconds, not it takes 1 minute and 30 seconds to kill a mob. The rest of that post deosn't even make sence if I had said 1 minute and 30 seconds per kill. FYI, killing mobs in 30 seconds means you kill 80 mobs in 40 minutes, but zones like Deep Forge can be done with less than 30 enounters.

Noaani

01-10-2009, 11:53 PM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The warlock AA has already been updated, it says it increases the hate of the detaunt proc. With the same number of AAs it reduces threat by a much smaller amount than the spell does on live. So the hate portion is way lower AND we lose the power regen entirely (27 power every 4 seconds when it procs, with a proc rate of 14% when tank is hit - and a duration of 16 seconds. </blockquote>one thing I will agree with you on, even though the new spell itself is far better than the old, the achievement to go with the new spell is considerably worse.The buff and the achievement are 2 different things, and should be considered seperatly at all times, and the achievement for this buff is crap... not that I would have ever put achievments in the old one anyway.

Detor

01-11-2009, 12:36 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vanquisher@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason to lose power regen over these hate changes except cutting corners.</blockquote>Actually, it would have been easier to not change the power regen at all, hence the removal of it is the opposite of cutting corners.You have still failed to mention one instance that this is actually useful. 2 - 4 power a second is not useful when you are casing spells that use up 300+ power, and are in fights that last no longer than a minute. This is not about pushing characters to any limit, although if you were pushing your character to any limit as a sorcerer, you would welcome the dehate taunt, as the first limit a sorcerer reaches is pulling aggro and dying.As to me not missing it thus everyone else being wrong... people are wrong because they don't know what they are talking about, not because I won't miss it. I won't miss it because I know what I am talking about. You are right in that there is a connection there, but you missed why that connection exists.</blockquote>Actually, hearing the way they store data it's a series of files (not a database like one would assume), so it's entirely conceivable that Aeralik designed the detaunt proc in one file, then copy/pasted it into the files for the warlock and wizard version of this spell by selecting the old block of text and pasting. In that process he could easily have accidentally erased more of the old files than he should have. (thereby accidentally deleting the power proc) In fact several things do indicate the spells are out and out bugged and the power nerf might not even be intended - for instance have you not noticed the spell says under allowable target: Group or Raid friend - Unless you believe you're now suppose to have the ability to give other people the ability to proc a detaunt?I've seen tanks go out of power on The Master in Crucible, Garudon in Veksar, heck the first mob in Korsha does a 100% power drain the moment you start combat with him leading to a fight where it's ALL about your group digging into the bottom of the barrel for every kind of power regen you can so tank can continue taunting and trying to survive, Cribblekeep can drain 30% of your power in a single AoE, and numerous other situations - all of which 27 power every 4 seconds (for a warlock it was almost always on in combat - I've watched and know this to be true) was quite useful. Just 2 ticks of that can be a whole additional taunt for a tank with taunts around 60 power. As for pushing your character - why in the world would I welcome a change that reduces my ability to keep mobs off me? The old version, which I already spelled out in extreme detail in this thread, did a LOT better job than the new one does at keeping mobs off me. That's the bottom line - old one kept mobs off me better, AND gave me 27 power every 4 seconds the majority of the time that I was in combat.edit: BTW I think I just figured out what is at the heart of why the spell seems so much better to you from the wizard perspective. Your spell decreases hate gain! The warlock version over here - we don't get a decrease to hate gain in the new one. The old one did in the form of a hate transfer, but the new one doesn't for us. Could this be the reason why the new one seems like such a huge nerf to me as a warlock, but to you wizards it doesn't look bad at all?

Noaani

01-11-2009, 12:56 AM

I have never seen a 100% power drain on any non epic mob.If a tank is running out of power in Veksar, they need to learn to manage their power better. To me, this is more of a reason to get rid of the power proc, as I do not want my class being used in any form as a substitute for not having good players in a group.The same can be said for the master, the tank needs to not worry about DPS or the adds at all, all he needs to do is hold aggro on the named.The old ability had a 4% hate transfer. The new one has a 8% hate loss. These are equal. The new achievement for this spell in the shadows line is not as good as the old one, and I would probably agree with you if you complained about that. However, the achievement is not the buff, and the buff is not the achievement, they are seperate. If you have an issue with the achievement for this buff, bring it up as a seperate issue, not as an issue with this buff.The changes to this spell are still on test. If you have played on test at all, you would be aware that the chhanges to spells are often finished with their discriptive text, which often does not happen on test until they are pushed live. The fact that the discriptice test of this buff has not changed at all is not indicative of it being a mistake, it is indicative of it being on test. And your theory about deleting half a file is far fetched to say the least. It would take a matter of seconds to recover a backup of that file. Also, this buff was changed to be self only, even if not in the description text. This does not happen by accident.

Detor

01-11-2009, 01:00 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>The old ability had a 4% hate transfer. The new one has a 8% hate loss. These are equal. The new achievement for this spell in the shadows line is not as good as the old one, and I would probably agree with you if you complained about that. However, the achievement is not the buff, and the buff is not the achievement, they are seperate. If you have an issue with the achievement for this buff, bring it up as a seperate issue, not as an issue with this buff.The changes to this spell are still on test. If you have played on test at all, you would be aware that the chhanges to spells are often finished with their discriptive text, which often does not happen on test until they are pushed live. The fact that the discriptice test of this buff has not changed at all is not indicative of it being a mistake, it is indicative of it being on test. And your theory about deleting half a file is far fetched to say the least. It would take a matter of seconds to recover a backup of that file. Also, this buff was changed to be self only, even if not in the description text. This does not happen by accident.</blockquote>Well, that guy is a nonepic, heroic named, first named in the zone. Examine window says the effect he does is suppose to remove 110% of your max power. (and it does make the tank go from 100% to 0% instantly)This goes to the heart of this arguement I believe, I just editted my other post before seeing this. Here's what I added:edit: BTW I think I just figured out what is at the heart of why the spell seems so much better to you from the wizard perspective. Your spell decreases hate gain! The warlock version over here - we don't get a decrease to hate gain in the new one. The old one did in the form of a hate transfer, but the new one doesn't for us. Could this be the reason why the new one seems like such a huge nerf to me as a warlock, but to you wizards it doesn't look bad at all?

Noaani

01-11-2009, 01:10 AM

That would be it, /bugged and /feedback'd already.

Detor

01-11-2009, 11:02 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>That would be it, /bugged and /feedback'd already.</blockquote>Thanks. It's funny that it took 5 pages before one of us realized what was going on. I kept saying it was a major nerf because we went from having a consistent hate loss, to just a random proc because to me it was JUST the proc, without the -8% hate the wizard one has. Meanwhile you kept saying it wasn't a nerf, and bringing up 4% hate transfer is 8% hate loss - and I had no idea why you kept saying that since it didn't seem to have anything to do with the version of the spell I'd been looking at. If the -8% hate loss is added to the warlock version (at this point who knows what is a bug and what isn't) then I wouldn't be nearly as upset about the power loss. Then it would be the transfer hate being converted into a hate loss, and the power proc being converted into the detaunt proc so it wouldn't be like we were really losing something on every part of the change - not on the scale of before where it seemed the power proc had just been forgotten, and that the transfer hate had been greatly reduced.This would also help explain perhaps why all my experiences on test have been way less than positive - I'm generating ~8% more hate than I should be. Plus, on top of that I hear that the paladin I had been with might not have been able to do his full potential because some of the paladin's taunts are bugged and they taunt the caster rather than the target. (so he was taunting himself, not the mobs)

Xarcara

01-11-2009, 01:59 PM

Detor can you post the specifics of the new spell im curious if your hate proc is larger than ours, yeah lacking that 8% less hate part i can see why warlocks see this as a nerf im pretty surprised since the two spells were almost exactly the same in the old versions

Detor

01-11-2009, 02:05 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Detor can you post the specifics of the new spell im curious if your hate proc is larger than ours, yeah lacking that 8% less hate part i can see why warlocks see this as a nerf im pretty surprised since the two spells were almost exactly the same in the old versions</blockquote>It's about 2k-3k if I remember correctly - it's whatever you have on the wizard side, hate proc is exactly the same I believe. Only other difference between yours and ours aside from the 8% missing on ours is that ours lets us cast it on others, not self only. That's why earlier I said it could be cast on others still (which pointed to a copy/paste error in my opinion), and then Noaani said "Oh that's just flavor text". I knew the difference between the descriptive text up above, and that it was letting me cast it on others. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Xarcara

01-11-2009, 02:26 PM

now im really confused im going to have to go on test and look at this. You can put it on other people so if you say put it on the tank they would generate negative hate for you or does it work in oppisite you generate less hate for somone else which is even more confusing if you could do like with the tank i could see it being usefull even great but on someone else /boggle

Xarcara

01-11-2009, 02:51 PM

Xarcara

01-11-2009, 02:54 PM

The wizard version is tons better than the warlock version, i proably wont be spending aa in it but the shadow aa is better to. the eof tree is still not updated

Detor

01-11-2009, 03:05 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>The wizard version is tons better than the warlock version, i proably wont be spending aa in it but the shadow aa is better to. the eof tree is still not updated</blockquote>Unfortunately none of this was in the update notes so nobody knows how anything is suppose to be. Is it a bug that warlock's version doesn't do a constant 8% hate loss? Or is it a bug that the wizard's version does? (maybe he intended for it to be that way, then changed his mind and forgot to remove the -8% from wizard version?) We're not alone in things like this though. Paladins are wondering if it's intended that they're the only tank with 0 "when target is hit increase threat" abilities, or that they don't have +parry on their defensive stance. Illusionists and Coercers are wondering if their TSO AA was meant to have its damage reduced by 30% on the high end. Lots of things they never told us they intended to do, nor mentioned that they had done in the update notes.

Griffinhart

01-11-2009, 07:08 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vanquisher@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Noaani plz stop trying to talk for the entire Wizard and Warlock population. Noaani I am glad you never have to worry about power regen but please grasp the fact other people do! The power regen is far from useless and to claim that boggles my mind.The power feed is helpful to a lot of us, those of us that use it want it put back in some form plz devs!Thank-you. </blockquote>Please explain to me a single time this power proc has been *actually* useful to you.In order for it to be useful, you would need to end an encounter with less power than this spell has provided you, otherwise it has not provided you with anything useful other than some sort of misguided self satisfaction that you have a power proc and thus are alright.Those of us that understand the game are happy with the change in its current from devs!Thank-you.</blockquote>On raids, it accounts for 15 to 20% of my in combat power regen. On long fights, like druushk, it makes a big difference. On raids it gives my main tank 20% of his in combat power regen. It's especially useful on fights where enchanters are constantly needing to feed the tank power. This is according to my last 3 raid parses in VP. Open your own parser up and look at the history. This proc does more than you think. It's just not in your face about it.I can't understand opinions like yours at all. They are obligated to make the hate changes to us since they are making these wide reaching changes. We are going to get these detaunt changes with or without nerfs to other abilities.Why, under any circumstances should we lose one ability to get a change that's going to happen anyway? They could, more easily, remove the 5 min recast of our mail of ice buff and add these exact same hate buffs and procs on it. The results being that they get the hate change they want without removing a current ability. Why should we take a nerf of any size when something like this can be done instead?

Griffinhart

01-11-2009, 07:12 PM

Noaani

01-11-2009, 07:23 PM

<cite>Griffinhart wrote:</cite><blockquote>On raids, it accounts for 15 to 20% of my in combat power regen. On long fights, like druushk, it makes a big difference. On raids it gives my main tank 20% of his in combat power regen. It's especially useful on fights where enchanters are constantly needing to feed the tank power. This is according to my last 3 raid parses in VP. Open your own parser up and look at the history. This proc does more than you think. It's just not in your face about it.</blockquote>Since about 65% of actual power regen for any group (chanter/bard regen buffs) is not parsed, everything in this paragraph is wrong. The wizard power proc accounts for 5 - 8% of your power and presumably even less of your tanks power, if your MT chanter is doing his job.I know exactly what the proc does, I have been looking at parses of the effects of this since the day SoE put power procs in log files, allowing ACT to parse them.One thing I will say, if we were each given 2 buffs, one with the power proc the other with the detaunt proc, after about a week, no one would use the power proc.The reason we lose an ability is because this is an MMORPG. It is constantly changing, constantly adapting. What you have today could be totally different tomorrow. It could be better, it could be worse, it could be neither. This is a part of what playing an MMO is all about, get used to it.

Sightless

01-11-2009, 07:35 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Griffinhart wrote:</cite><blockquote>On raids, it accounts for 15 to 20% of my in combat power regen. On long fights, like druushk, it makes a big difference. On raids it gives my main tank 20% of his in combat power regen. It's especially useful on fights where enchanters are constantly needing to feed the tank power. This is according to my last 3 raid parses in VP. Open your own parser up and look at the history. This proc does more than you think. It's just not in your face about it.</blockquote>Since about 65% of actual power regen for any group (chanter/bard regen buffs) is not parsed, everything in this paragraph is wrong. The wizard power proc accounts for 5 - 8% of your power and presumably even less of your tanks power, if your MT chanter is doing his job.I know exactly what the proc does, I have been looking at parses of the effects of this since the day SoE put power procs in log files, allowing ACT to parse them.One thing I will say, if we were each given 2 buffs, one with the power proc the other with the detaunt proc, after about a week, no one would use the power proc.The reason we lose an ability is because this is an MMORPG. It is constantly changing, constantly adapting. What you have today could be totally different tomorrow. It could be better, it could be worse, it could be neither. This is a part of what playing an MMO is all about, get used to it.</blockquote>I would use the power proc, and wisely use my other detaunt abilities, especially the detaunt tinkered item. I have enough power issues now with the changes to Pondwash, and changes to Dispersion/Displacement.

Noaani

01-11-2009, 08:24 PM

<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Griffinhart wrote:</cite><blockquote>On raids, it accounts for 15 to 20% of my in combat power regen. On long fights, like druushk, it makes a big difference. On raids it gives my main tank 20% of his in combat power regen. It's especially useful on fights where enchanters are constantly needing to feed the tank power. This is according to my last 3 raid parses in VP. Open your own parser up and look at the history. This proc does more than you think. It's just not in your face about it.</blockquote>Since about 65% of actual power regen for any group (chanter/bard regen buffs) is not parsed, everything in this paragraph is wrong. The wizard power proc accounts for 5 - 8% of your power and presumably even less of your tanks power, if your MT chanter is doing his job.I know exactly what the proc does, I have been looking at parses of the effects of this since the day SoE put power procs in log files, allowing ACT to parse them.One thing I will say, if we were each given 2 buffs, one with the power proc the other with the detaunt proc, after about a week, no one would use the power proc.The reason we lose an ability is because this is an MMORPG. It is constantly changing, constantly adapting. What you have today could be totally different tomorrow. It could be better, it could be worse, it could be neither. This is a part of what playing an MMO is all about, get used to it.</blockquote>I would use the power proc, and wisely use my other detaunt abilities, especially the detaunt tinkered item. I have enough power issues now with the changes to Pondwash, and changes to Dispersion/Displacement.</blockquote>The dinkerer detaunt item is a straight up ~3k detaunt, its not that flash.Apparintly you are one of those sorcerers that would rather have active dehate, which means you need to take time in your casting rotation to cast them, which in tern lowers DPS making dehate pointless in the first place.An example of this is concussive as it is on live now (it is changed slightly on test, but not enough to chage the end result). It has a 2 second cast time, and in 2 seconds an average sorcerer will deal about 15 - 20k damage on a single target (7.5 - 10k DPS). In that 2 seconds of time it takes to cast concussive, you lose 15 - 20k hate through the 15 - 20k damage you would have dealt, but didn't. Then on top of that you lose a massive ~2k hate on that target from the spell. now, most wizards have several proc items, and these all are able to trigger off of conccisive.If you have more than 2k worth of hate proc on your concussive cast (which is a sinlge greater burning affliction proc, as an example), then you generated more hate in those 2 seconds than you would have had you simply not cast a thing. While you may claim that you dealt damage, I would respond with 'if it was damage you wanted, you should have cast a damage spell'.The only way anyone will understand the benefits of this change when they are as missinformed (and convinced about their missinformation) as some wizards in this thread os for them to group/raid making a specific point to not use this buff, and make a note of how little difference it actually has (and be sure to have the same group makup and buffs...). Once you have done that, and once these changes hit live, run a few raids or groups with this buff on in its new state to see what it does, and then run a few without it to see how fast you die (FYI a dead wizard has no power).

Noaani

01-11-2009, 08:26 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="http://s701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Zarcara123/?action=view&current=converge.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Zarcara123/converge.jpg" border="0" /></a></blockquote>Ignoring the descriptions, either the warlock buff can be maintained on several people in a group/raid at a time or it is bugged. If the former, grats on becoming almost as important for raid dehate as a troub, if the latter, I hope it gets fixed.

Detor

01-11-2009, 10:01 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ignoring the descriptions, either the warlock buff can be maintained on several people in a group/raid at a time or it is bugged. If the former, grats on becoming almost as important for raid dehate as a troub, if the latter, I hope it gets fixed.</blockquote>It's bugged. There's no doubt about that in my mind. I just hope Aeralik doesn't fix the target type then completely forget its missing the -8% hate reduction, to then turn and report to others that he "fixed" it. That's the kind of luck warlocks usually have.

Vanquishir3zi

01-11-2009, 10:43 PM

There is no way to reason with Noaani guys. He trys to shout the most and the loudest just look at his post count! He quickly proved to me he thinks he knows it all and does not.FYI Mr N the most common power drain on a tank is called "death" and yes you can recast this buff mid fight <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If we are unhappy with the changes please speak up! This is a nerf and we need to get the power protect back that we have had for years!Is there a way to ignore on these boards? ^_^Mr V.

Noaani

01-12-2009, 01:14 AM

<cite>Vanquisher@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no way to reason with Noaani guys. He trys to shout the most and the loudest just look at his post count! He quickly proved to me he thinks he knows it all and does not.</blockquote>Here's the thing... the numbers of this power proc simply do not make it useful in its current state on live. It will not prevent a wipe if a wipe is going to happen, it will not help a group get through a zone any faster than they would without it and it will not in any way increase DPS of anyone, ever.My reason for being happy with this change is simply because mathmatically this change provides is with a greater benefit. There are people that are upset with losing what they consider to be "nice utility", yet the only numbers that anyone has provided to back up their claim of it being "nice utility" were screwed due to in combat poewr regen not being factored in (this is something that needs to be done manually, it takes all of about 30 seconds if you have the regen amounts on hand).And of the day, my opinion will not change based on someones feelings about what they think this buff is or is not good for, it will change based on hard numbers and facts. Right now those numbers are pointing to the fact that this change wil benefit every wizard in the game except for those that are attempting to solo via a *battlemage* spec, and those wizards in groups that are chain pulling with no regen. Of those, a battlemage spec'd sorcerer deserves to be nerfed to all hell and back, and if the tank in the chain pulling group is being hit enough for this proc to be regening much power, it is the healer that will be going oop first.If you have some actual factual reasons, with some form of data to back up your reason for wanting this to stay in, then by all means post it. If you provide actual facts you may well convince me... not that doing so will achieve anything.Edit: oh, and making comments about post count? not that mine is particularly high... but even commenting on it, sir, makes you an absolute expert at the internet!

Noaani

01-12-2009, 01:17 AM

<cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ignoring the descriptions, either the warlock buff can be maintained on several people in a group/raid at a time or it is bugged. If the former, grats on becoming almost as important for raid dehate as a troub, if the latter, I hope it gets fixed.</blockquote>It's bugged. There's no doubt about that in my mind. I just hope Aeralik doesn't fix the target type then completely forget its missing the -8% hate reduction, to then turn and report to others that he "fixed" it. That's the kind of luck warlocks usually have.</blockquote>As a wizard, I would be quite happy if the warlock version stayed as it is, castable on multiple targets. It would mean that I could have 3 deaggro procs on top of the 16% hate reduction I get from buffs, and the 11% hate reduction I get from gear. Thats better hate managment thatn what I have on live now with just a troubador...(fyi... I hope it gets fixed too!).

Detor

01-12-2009, 10:00 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Detor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ignoring the descriptions, either the warlock buff can be maintained on several people in a group/raid at a time or it is bugged. If the former, grats on becoming almost as important for raid dehate as a troub, if the latter, I hope it gets fixed.</blockquote>It's bugged. There's no doubt about that in my mind. I just hope Aeralik doesn't fix the target type then completely forget its missing the -8% hate reduction, to then turn and report to others that he "fixed" it. That's the kind of luck warlocks usually have.</blockquote>As a wizard, I would be quite happy if the warlock version stayed as it is, castable on multiple targets. It would mean that I could have 3 deaggro procs on top of the 16% hate reduction I get from buffs, and the 11% hate reduction I get from gear. Thats better hate managment thatn what I have on live now with just a troubador...(fyi... I hope it gets fixed too!).</blockquote>It's the same stacking and casting rules as before. So, if I cast my proc on you - your version is going to go away. And ask yourself which you'd rather have on you, which you'd prefer since it's a pick one situation - yours or ours? I think the answer is pretty clear on that one. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> The rules of casting that it had before was - castable on one person. Which means if we cast it on somebody else we won't even get the hate detaunt proc ourselves.

maddawg138

01-12-2009, 11:04 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="http://s701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Zarcara123/?action=view&current=converge.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww19/Zarcara123/converge.jpg" border="0" /></a></blockquote>Ignoring the descriptions, either the warlock buff can be maintained on several people in a group/raid at a time or it is bugged. If the former, grats on becoming almost as important for raid dehate as a troub, if the latter, I hope it gets fixed.</blockquote>The spell does not cost a concentration slot BUT can only be cast on a single person(including themselves) in its current version. If they keep it as a group or raid friend buff thats fine but how many warlocks will acutally put it on someone other than themselves? I know i won't.BTW the way these spells are they are far better than any lame power proc. If you have issues with power during raids then get better gear and get the sagacity AA line which reduces power cost by 12% in the wisdom line.

Griffinhart

01-12-2009, 01:09 PM

<cite>Xede@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>BTW the way these spells are they are far better than any lame power proc. If you have issues with power during raids then get better gear and get the sagacity AA line which reduces power cost by 12% in the wisdom line.</blockquote>Come on, what a patronizing response. Of course I have my endline Wis AA. And it's easy to say "get better gear" except that it's not that easy. There are those of us that are working hard to progress through content without being involved in large raiding guilds that blow through VP in a night. We're getting past the content and getting gear but it's not a gimme like it is with raiding guilds.Downplay it all you like. But I can come up with parse after parse showing its value. We did another Druushk attempt last night. Our best attempt lasted 16 minutes. Durring that time it proc'd 48 times and gave me 8800 power durring that fight. That's the equiv of 55 power per tick durring the fight to me and the main tank. I fail to see how that is insignificant. Considering the duration of the fight and the fact that it also replentished more power to the tank durring the fight than his entire powerpool, how can anyone not call this a nerf?I understand that they are improving our hate reduction tools. I get that. But they are going to do that anyway since they are reworking the entire hate system. This isn't about trade offs. There shouldn't even be an argument here. They need to make the hate changes without any changes to unrelated abilities, period.

maddawg138

01-12-2009, 06:11 PM

<cite>Griffinhart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xede@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>BTW the way these spells are they are far better than any lame power proc. If you have issues with power during raids then get better gear and get the sagacity AA line which reduces power cost by 12% in the wisdom line.</blockquote>Come on, what a patronizing response. Of course I have my endline Wis AA. And it's easy to say "get better gear" except that it's not that easy. There are those of us that are working hard to progress through content without being involved in large raiding guilds that blow through VP in a night. We're getting past the content and getting gear but it's not a gimme like it is with raiding guilds.Downplay it all you like. But I can come up with parse after parse showing its value. We did another Druushk attempt last night. Our best attempt lasted 16 minutes. Durring that time it proc'd 48 times and gave me 8800 power durring that fight. That's the equiv of 55 power per tick durring the fight to me and the main tank. I fail to see how that is insignificant. Considering the duration of the fight and the fact that it also replentished more power to the tank durring the fight than his entire powerpool, how can anyone not call this a nerf?I understand that they are improving our hate reduction tools. I get that. But they are going to do that anyway since they are reworking the entire hate system. This isn't about trade offs. There shouldn't even be an argument here. They need to make the hate changes without any changes to unrelated abilities, period.</blockquote>16 minutes on druushk? wow just wow. yah something needs to be done about the guild then if its taking you to do druushk in 16minutes. If things died fast enough you wouldnt need to depend on that power proc. Try to get the people in your guild to stop slacking and do better DPS.

Thinwizzy

01-12-2009, 06:56 PM

I gotta say, I really like the change to converge. It will be nice to finally get a self-buff deaggro proc like rogues have had. It will be nice to not have to chase a tank down to put it on. It will be nice to not have to figure out what sorc is putting their proc on who. It will be nice to not lessen the hate xfers of other classes by putting it on the mt.As for losing the power proc, losing something that doesnt help any, isnt really a loss. I dont recall a single instance while raiding or leveling up running zones in pickup groups where I was thankful I had that miniscule amount of power coming in. I'm not in game at the moment to check, but if I am remembering correctly it takes 3 or more procs to get a bolt of ice off. I'll take the deaggro, thanks. Is your tank even getting pelted enough to save your power if your power even got low enough to need saving?

Noaani

01-12-2009, 07:53 PM

<cite>Griffinhart wrote:</cite><blockquote>We did another Druushk attempt last night. Our best attempt lasted 16 minutes. Durring that time it proc'd 48 times and gave me 8800 power durring that fight. That's the equiv of 55 power per tick durring the fight to me and the main tank. </blockquote>I am going to agree with you on one point here, the current Converge is useful to a raiding wizard in a guild that sucks. I am not saying that in a way that is meant to be offensive in any manner, nor am I talking about you as a player (as I have no idea how good you are or are not), but... a 16 minute Druushk pull?This is from our last kill...Druushk: (02:39) 8865997 | 55760.99Now I have a question for you. Why would wizards, as a collective community, want a buff that is desinged to only be useful to a raiding wizard whom happens to be in a guild that sucks? Is that not a rather narrow target audiance for a spell?I fully agree that in the case you have posted above that this spell was marganilly useful, but does that in itself mean it should not change?

Xarcara

01-12-2009, 10:50 PM

the question really is the rest of use are pretty much willing to give up what we consider a largely useless utility for a much better spell why arent you

Griffinhart

01-13-2009, 01:18 PM

<cite>Xede@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>16 minutes on druushk? wow just wow. yah something needs to be done about the guild then if its taking you to do druushk in 16minutes. If things died fast enough you wouldnt need to depend on that power proc. Try to get the people in your guild to stop slacking and do better DPS.</blockquote>Yes, and here's a news flash for you. Not all raids are made up of the "perfect raid" for example, the caster group doesn't have an illy. For guilds like yours that can tear through VP in a night this may seem long, but for guilds and raiding alliances that are slowly working their way through the content for the first time this is normal. It just demonstrates how your perspective is totally out of skew with the reality of it. It's not uncommon for raid forces entering VP for the first time to have a raid wide DPS of 60K, then after clearing and gearing up seeing that rocket past 100K. It's called progression. If your guild is geared up well enough to take down trak and clear Hate completely, then sure, losing the power proc of the spell is meaningless, but to the other 95% that play the game, this is not the case. If this concept is a surprise to you it wouldn't be a shock to me if you merely joined a raiding guild that had already cleared VP a few times so you never had to actually do the hard part of learning the encounters and have to earn the win.

Griffinhart

01-13-2009, 01:23 PM

<cite>Xarcara@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>the question really is the rest of use are pretty much willing to give up what we consider a largely useless utility for a much better spell why arent you</blockquote>No, only the guilds that can kill druushk in 3 minutes are willing to give it up. Which is the minority of players in the game. And I've said exactly why. We shouldn't have to give up any abilities at all. The hate changes are going in. They can give us the exact same hate changes simply by moving it to another self buff rather than this one.Why are you not willing to let us keep the utility AND get the hate changes moved to a buff like mail of frost or just create a new self buff exclusively for the hate changes? What is your fundimental issue with retaining this utility? Just because you are willing to give up an ability doesn't mean the rest of us are.

Griffinhart

01-13-2009, 01:33 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Druushk: (02:39) 8865997 | 55760.99Now I have a question for you. Why would wizards, as a collective community, want a buff that is desinged to only be useful to a raiding wizard whom happens to be in a guild that sucks? Is that not a rather narrow target audiance for a spell? It's not just usefull to raiding wizards "in a guild that sucks" (patronizing much?). But it's also useful to non-raiding wizards in group instances. The ones that are hitting heroic content without avatar or trak loot. Remember, its raiding wizards like yourself that are in the minority. Contrary to your opinion, this group is far from the "narrow target audiance."I fully agree that in the case you have posted above that this spell was marganilly useful, but does that in itself mean it should not change? But the hate changes do not in themselves mean that other abilities should change. If they are going to make hate changes, make them. Hate changes have zero to do with power regen, so why is the change to the power proc even up for discussion?</blockquote>Now let me ask you, how long did it take your guild to kill Druushk when they first started VP? I fully expect that it took quite a bit longer than 2:39.My raid group is only just getting to VP. We haven't even reset our very first timer yet. We have attempted him on two nights so far. As for my guild sucking, it has nothing to do with my guild. I belong to an raiding alliance that lets people from small guilds do this content. We went through PR, Thuuga, Paw, Korsha, Venril, Leviathan with a two night a week raiding schedule and have finally started doing VP after 6 months of effort. Most members were not fully fabled out from previous expansions and we clawed our way through the content without outside help and earned access to VP the hard way. And we did it by using all the tools available to us, including Converge.

01-13-2009, 01:53 PM

I think Noaani should try to play in the grp without troub, illu, mystic.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /> As hardcore raider, I agree that mana proc is not so useful, if u are in well-setted grp. But it doesn't happens always and moreover not to all wiz and lock. Sometimes, I should equip RoK avatar pants and earring and some other power proc gears. In this situation, power proc from boon(I'm warlock) is really helpful. I hope u don't think all in the view of ur situation.Thanks to Detor. you said well about most of what I want to say, although some ppl can't understand =p. Ppl should know the reason why many(?) locks are angry on boon's nerf. As u know, warlock is AE dpser. But although we have gigantic AE spell, if we can't control our AE aggro, we can't say we are AE dpser, because we should hold our AE DPS not to steal aggro from tanker, and to be alive. After LU51, we lose 4 major AE aggro controls.<ul><li>Losing Amend</li><li>Troub dehate buff become 8%</li><li>Swash's aggro transfer nerf</li><li>Link of Coerecer will go to MT, because Link has new effect and MT lose aggro transfer.</li></ul>In this situation, Boon is the very important way to lower our AE hate. but SoE patched Boon. Boon has less dehate effect than live. Moreover it's just single dehate proc. That is, we lost 5 ways to keep our AE dehate. Now, we should lower AE dps not to steal aggro and to be alive. In the worst case, we should have lowered our AE dps to wiz lvl. If so, how can we say we are AE dpser? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> Until LU51, nobody knows how this aggro system will work. but I can never think that tanker will hold AE aggro better than now. If so, what warlock can do is just to lower AE dps. =(PS. If u ask my skill quality, I have no idea how I can explain. but our guild cleared RoK(including all avatars), although our guild is not server 1st. And for Druusk fight, I forgot how long it took because we don't do VP after TSO(Just did 2 times), but we killed before 3rd adds arrive to us. I think it's less then 3min. But I'm still putting some power proc gears in my bag. and equiping sometimes.

maddawg138

01-13-2009, 11:43 PM

<cite>kwan wrote:</cite><blockquote>In this situation, Boon is the very important way to lower our AE hate. but SoE patched Boon. Boon has less dehate effect than live. Moreover it's just single dehate proc. That is, we lost 5 ways to keep our AE dehate. Now, we should lower AE dps not to steal aggro and to be alive. In the worst case, we should have lowered our AE dps to wiz lvl. If so, how can we say we are AE dpser? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> </blockquote>as i stated on flames IMO if boon is changed to "target encounter" instead of just single target that it would be slightly more effective. But also keep in mind our epic procs a dropped threat position. Reguardless the changes in GU51 are great including the changes to converge and boon.

Noaani

01-14-2009, 12:19 AM

<cite>Griffinhart wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, and here's a news flash for you. Not all raids are made up of the "perfect raid" for example, the caster group doesn't have an illy. </blockquote>If the raid has an illusionist, it should be in the caster group. If there is an illusionist present and it is not in that group, point and laugh at the raid leader for me please.

Noaani

01-14-2009, 12:28 AM

<cite>Griffinhart wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not just usefull to raiding wizards "in a guild that sucks" (patronizing much?). But it's also useful to non-raiding wizards in group instances. The ones that are hitting heroic content without avatar or trak loot. Remember, its raiding wizards like yourself that are in the minority. Contrary to your opinion, this group is far from the "narrow target audiance."</blockquote>Group instance fights do not last long enough to get any benefit from the power proc on Converge, we have already discussed that.<blockquote>But the hate changes do not in themselves mean that other abilities should change. If they are going to make hate changes, make them. Hate changes have zero to do with power regen, so why is the change to the power proc even up for discussion?</blockquote> It doesn't mean there has to be a change, but it also does not proclude the possibility of a change. Since this is an overal boost for wizards, there is no issue.<blockquote>Now let me ask you, how long did it take your guild to kill Druushk when they first started VP? I fully expect that it took quite a bit longer than 2:39.</blockquote>First Druushk kill was a little under 8 minutes. I went to pull it up in ACT to see how much power was regened by converge/boon, but it seems none of the sorcerers had it on anyone for that pull. Your right, its really a great tool!

01-14-2009, 01:05 AM

<cite>Xede@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>as i stated on flames IMO if boon is changed to "target encounter" instead of just single target that it would be slightly more effective. But also keep in mind our epic procs a dropped threat position. Reguardless the changes in GU51 are great including the changes to converge and boon.</blockquote>Yeah. I read what u wrote on eq2flames. and I agree that, it should be changed to "target encounter". As I said, lock need AE dehate, not single target dehate. And what u said is also to change boon from single to ae dehate. I'll be really happy if boon is changed to "target encounter", although its actual effect is less than current Boon and wiz's one.Also, I know our epic proc will be great after LU51. and I think that's the one reason why we didn't get 8% dehate like as wiz. But I don't want pull our epic on this discussion. If we should have less dehate because of myth, why soe doesn't remove damage modifer or double spell crit on wiz's epic? Then, Wiz's aggro will be better without 8% dehate. Think, SoE gave more boost on DPS to wiz, and now give more dehate. However, SoE gave less boost on DPS to lock, so less dehate? What the ridiculous situation. I agree our epic is good for aggro control and that's why I wrote that we'll have less problem on single target after lu51 than any other mages. But our epic proc is not enough for AE fight. I hope ppl don't think hate on AE fight like as hate on signle fight. I really don't hope to cast single dd to proc our myth after casting amaggedon in AE fight. Why should we do that? then when can we cast absoultion, cata, radiation?Anyway we'll know how it'll go on after lu51. But before that, really hope boon to be changed to AE dehate.

Thinwizzy

01-14-2009, 03:59 AM

-Area of effect spells and combat arts will no longer spread hate to encounter members when damage is applied. Does that not help out warlocks a wee bit?As for the power proc, I still cant begin to imagine missing it. I can remember being in a much less than stellar freeport guild. We had never seen an illuisionist in a raid. No one had mythicals or vp gear. Even then, doing pulls on names I never once came to rely on the power proc from converge. It is just that trivial. I have always wished for a deaggro proc. I never understood why we didnt get one. Where there times I got low on power in those raids? Yes. Did converge make a noticeable difference? No.Its great to look at a zonewide and say, "converge procced me x amount of power, how nice"; but if you really think about it, how much of that power is actually being used? If your in a new guild to vp, taking your time and learning the fights, its pretty easy to get back to 100% power between pulls; meaning those few procs you got in that fight are going untouched.Wizards are getting a very nice gift with this deaggro. They are changing a buff from something that a percentage of wizards found marginally usefull, to something that is incredibly usefull for all wizards. I have to say thank you for this. Be thankful and remember, it doesnt matter how much power you regenned when you are dead.