Paladin changes - summary on test [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Antryg Mistrose

01-08-2009, 06:49 AM

My legendary geared/spelled paladin comparing test to live:AmendsIs no longer a hate transfer, and now has upgrades at levels 63 (Reparation), and 73 (Restitution). AppIVs and AdeptIIIs have made it in to alchemist spell booksNew effects (Restitution adeptIII):<ul><li>1 threat position increase</li><li>5.1-6.3k threat instantly and every 4sec for 20sec</li><li>15m range</li><li>0.18sec cast, instant recovery, 27.3 recast (assuming STR line maxed)</li></ul>Offensive StanceWrath Stance 73 (master), has a whole lot of effects now:<ul><li>Prevents caster from applying taunt effects (you can cast em, they just don't land the taunt part)</li><li>117 Wis</li><li>187 Int</li><li>257 Str</li><li>Increases Crushing, Piercing, Slashing and Disruption by 48</li><li>On a successful melee attack get a 4/min Glorious Strike proc (860-1433) - double against undead and 2sec non-epic stun</li><li>Increases Max Health of caster by 662</li><li>Decreases Defense of caster by 20</li><li>Decreases hate gain by 10%</li><li>Increases all physical damage done to cater by 5%</li><li>4.5sec recast shared with defensive stance</li></ul>Defensive Stance Bayle's Stance 72 (master), has a whole lot of effects:<ul><li>92 Int</li><li>69 Str</li><li>183 Wis</li><li>Decreased Crushing, Piercing, Slashing by 20</li><li>On a successful melee attack get a 3/min Glorious Strike proc (3.2-4k threat) and non-epic stun</li><li>Increases Max Health of caster by 779</li><li>Increases Defenss and Parry of caster by 37 (note this is with the full 5 points in TSO fighter tree "Consumate Defender"</li><li>Increases hate gain by 12.8%</li><li>Decreases Melee Damage Multiplier of caster by 0.5 (21% reduction in autoattack damage according to weaponstats)</li><li>Increases effectiveness of worn armour vs all physical damage by 15%</li><li>Increases base amount of taunts by 8%</li><li>Increases mitigation vs magic and divine damage by 2419</li><li>Increases Aggression by 27</li><li>4.5sec recast shared with offensive stance</li></ul>Kick Penitent Kick 74 (adeptIII), now also increases threat by 5.2-6.4k threat 382-588damage (common line to other fighters) Shield Bash Heroic Dash 79 (adeptIII), increases threat by 4.4k theat with 282-421 damageTaunt Clarion 79 (master2), increases threat by 9.8-12k threat, 0.19 sec cast, no recovery. 4.5sec recast, 30 power. Can be cast through stifle or stun.Encounter Taunt Excoriation 76 (adeptIII, increases threat by 2.9-3.6k threat, 0.38sec cast, recast 9.1secAoE damage/heal Circular Smith 75 (adeptIII), increases threat by 3.4-4.2k in addition to the 601-994 damage and 298 heal. Idolic Axe (Str crusader AA)Increases base amount of taunts, and taunt crit chance: <ul><li>1 pts - 1.2% / 2.2%</li><li>2 pts - 2.4% / 4.4%</li><li>3 pts - 3.6% / 6.6% (above comparisons were originally made with 3pts in it - my live spec)</li><li>4 pts - 4.8% / 8.8%</li><li>5 pts - 6% / 11%</li><li>6 pts - 7.2% / 13.2%</li><li>7 pts - 8.4% / 15.4%</li><li>8 pts - 9.6% / 17.6%</li></ul> Rescue 3 hate positions and 13.6k threat. Recast 5 mins (3min 8sec with Avenging Invigorlation and TSO AA maxed)Divine Favor Death save now heals for a % instead of fixed amount (17.5 at adept3), loses its stifle and daze and gives a 2 hit stoneskin.3 hate positions and 13.6k threat. Recast 5 mins (3min 8sec with Avenging Invigorlation and TSO AA maxed)

Kordran

01-08-2009, 07:45 AM

You come to a conclusion, but did you actually play your Paladin? What I'm really interested in is "real world" experiences from Paladins, both in instance runs and raids. It sounds to me like you've made your conclusion and recommendation (to betray to a Shadow Knight) based just on the numbers, and not on any playtesting.

Antryg Mistrose

01-08-2009, 07:49 AM

I spent 2 hrs going through every spell and posted actual numbers from screenshots. Groups on testcopy in my timezone (there were 17 people total on) aren't going to happen.Thank you for your thoughtfull fact filled response.

QuaiCon

01-08-2009, 09:25 AM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>Defensive Stance Bayle's Stance 72 (master), has a whole lot of effects: <ul><li>Changes taunt abilities into hate reduction abilities (ie tooltips on taunt stuff say Decreases rather then Increases threat)</li><li>92 Int</li><li>69 Str</li><li>183 Wis</li><li>Decreased Crushing, Piercing, Slashing by20</li><li>On a successful melee attack get the Glorious Strike proc (824-1373) - double against undead and non-epic stun</li><li>Increases Max Health of caster by 779</li><li>Increases Defense of caster by 37</li><li>Increases hate gain by 12.8%</li><li>Decreases Melee Damage Multiplier of caster by 0.5 (21% reduction in autoattack damage according to weaponstats)</li><li>Increases effectiveness of worn armour vs all physical damage by 15%</li><li>Increases base amount of taunts by 8%</li><li>Increases mitigation vs magic and divine damage by 2419</li><li>Increases Aggression by 27</li></ul></blockquote>there is some errors in this one. def stance doesn't have the changes from taunts to detaunts. also glorious strike on def stance doesn't proc damage it just procs a taunt (and no dounle against undead). rest seems to be okbut for me clarion had a lot lower values when i wrote it down (not sure who made the mistake and cannot recheck atm).doubt that aggro will be a lot different for other tanks, we got our weak taunts buffed by quite a lot up to the vaules of other tanks, but lost amends. the proc chance of the taunt on def stance seemed a bit low to me when i checked my pally on test compared to the other tanks passive aggro gain abilities (guardian has 50% chance to proc it when gettign hit, bers 20%, not sure how high % is for sk), also we are the only ones that have to hit for it to proc and not getting hit (not sure whats better).

Antryg Mistrose

01-08-2009, 09:58 AM

Sorry missed that - I cut and pasted offensive & defensive (to keep them in the same order) then went back and modified - fixed in orignal post now.The Clarion figures are about right - now with 8 pts in Idolic Axe its showing 7.1 to 8.7k.I'm not as optimistic. That we may have similar taunts to other tanks is a major problem. We have less survivability, less "Oops" abilities, and no compelling raid or group buffs. That we had the best aggro abilities when used with the right amends target used to balance these - now we are just a 2nd rate guardian with a few heals.

QuaiCon

01-08-2009, 10:24 AM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not as optimistic. That we may have similar taunts to other tanks is a major problem. We have less survivability, less "Oops" abilities, and no compelling raid or group buffs. That we had the best aggro abilities when used with the right amends target used to balance these - now we are just a 2nd rate guardian with a few heals.</blockquote>if you read my other posts then i'm far from optimistic too, just saying atm that aggro probably is not the real problem its more that the whole class won't work anymore.the big problem pally healing has is that the heals don't scale with the target, if a class gets a shorttime mit buff then that absorbs a little damage on solo targets, more damage on heroic targets and a lot more on raidtargets. same is true with higher avoidance on solo targets a missed hit is a small portion of damage missed while on raidmobs a missed hit is a huge damage missed. our heals are same no matter if we fight solo mobs or raidmobs, this makes it impossible to tune them against the shorttime buffs to mitigation that other classes get and to the higher avoidance skills they have on their stances.also while the heal amounts were ok on lower levels closer to game launch (now with rok equip on low levels they are probably out of scale too) they are very small now at high levels. i can remember times when a ward was up for more than one hit on heroic conent, now it usually just absorbs a part of a hit even on heroic content, lay on hands line was a near to full heal some time in past now if you see it compared to a buffed raitank then its also out of proportion.finally our heals can get interrupted and we have to spend some time casing them, with the low heal amounts and i think lower aggro generation of a heal compared to damage we will even loose out on aggro while healing.and the oher bit messed up point i see is that we are a tank class with a whole lot of aoe spells/ca's (not sure if we got more than a sk, but more than both warriro classes for sure) but still get pushed in single target tank role. we can do ok damage on multi mob fights but probably won't be able to keep aggro on them (yay).

Freliant

01-08-2009, 10:44 AM

Way too many pallies Thinking the world is ending... First of... that "400" Threat per second mentioned above, is the same as putting amends on a 1k parsing player... that is true... however, that does not take into account the hate boosts and base hate increases along with the crits, which will also increase this.What has not been mentioned, is that they now have 5+ taunt abilities, all with around 8 second recast, and that do 4k+ taunt minimum. Since they will all reset by the time you cycle all your taunts, your minimum hate gain with no crits, or hate increases will be very close to 5k hate per second.This by no means is something to laugh at. In addition to this, the "Restitution" skill (previously amends) increases the hate position for those times where things go wrong.. This is your "rescue" equivalent. As well as the other Shadown AA taunt that increases your hate by a few positions, and taunts.Something else to look at, is the fact that almost all high dps classes have huge agro decreases and detaunts. With AAs, the wizard, can have a 28% decrease in hate, and a 3-4k detaunt that procs off attacks 6+ times per minute, and their existing detaunts have been conciderably boosted as well.BTW, the taunt that was mentioned has a duration because it has a built in stun.Anyways, Try out the class in some groups, and you will find that agro control is very strong. Its just not as easy as placing amends on a high dps class and never worrying about agro again... which is what you had before.

Niou

01-08-2009, 11:10 AM

For anybody that isn't intelligent enough to think and keeps grinning like a fool while being screwed, saying we have tons of hate now, you really need to realize that its not about the Amount of hate we are getting, its the Type of hate.Can we hold single target hate? Yes.In little group instances can we hold group hate? Yes.In Raids do we have a position at all? No.There is more to the game than little legendary equipped Paladin's running around doing instances. The entire end game is based around raiding and due to this change, Paladin's no longer have any place in that. We have been relegated to Single Target Tanks but have been given 0 ability's with which to do so.Do you actually think a raid is going to want a Paladin MT over a Guard MT just out of the goodness of their heart? No, they are not. They are going to want the best MT in the game, Guardians, who are the best because of their stoneskin ability's.The OP is right. These changes were done with no forethought at all when it comes to the raiding aspect. It is merely a large nerf and they're throwing garbage like "we gave you a really cool taunt!" at the inexperienced Paladins in order to placate them.

Boli32

01-08-2009, 01:42 PM

I'll hold my OT/MT position in my guild for some while and I'll adapt to deal with it... but if we decide to do OK again I'm just going to have to turn around to the raid leader and say: "listen... get the chanter to tank this one as I've been shafted in AoE hate so hard I can taste the nerf stick coming out the other end.".The only reason the paladins will even see a SNIFF of a MT/OTing role in raids is either if all the rest fo the tanks miraculacy fall ill or SoE decide to back up their promise and actually back up the "second most defensive tank" with some actual spells in order to counteract this.This is currently what we bring to a raid with the changes:* Raid buff +Wis +5% base Heals (I think our MT defiler procs up well above 50% base heals these days which I believe is the cap... so erm.. yeah want 200 more resists from the wisdom? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)* Raid buff +820 mit to all none fighters (ever hear of the mitigation curve? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)* Low dps (I think at an estimate we are equal with guards)* Debuffs (one, divine - only clerics, paladins and one fury DoT use divine... so we get to increase priest dps.. important stuff!... erm not really)* Group Buffs (erm.... 250-350 2.7 times a min... barely registers 1% on my ZW even in undead zones.* Erm.... I'm thinking* Come back later* Does Guild mascot count?* We heal somewhat but quite frankly if you need a paladin to heal you have more serious problems than ours - if you need heals bring an inquisitor they can toggle fanatasmi, debuff dps, increase casting speed and in general offer more to a raid PLUS heal better.. and they don't need to be buff stacked to dps* Nope sorry that's it... that is ALL we bring to a raid where we do not tank.In short unless we are actively tanking a paladin brings NOTHING to a raid... so shall we have them MT? nah the guards better... what about OT... well zerker and SK give much better buffs and debuffs when not tanking and can do more dps whilst tanking... oh and have more survivability... pala what?The only way we can HOPE to survive this change and not be sidelined as a "novalty or sympathy act" is by SoE fufiilling on their promise to the paladin community to make them the second most defensive tank in truth rather than saying they are and hopeing no-one will notice... and this does NOT involve giveing SKs parry on their defensive stance and not giving it to paladins;mini stoneskins, short term damage immunity, chance to proc our ward whilst in defensive stance; buff which pulses hate at the target when we cast a beneficial spell (heal); anything.I think I'm lucky in that as it stands I think I can remain OT/MT in my guild, but I feel for other paladins starting out.N00b Pally: So what have I got to look forward to when I finally reach 80.. I can't wait this class has so much potential!"Experianced Pally: "Re-Rolling"

Valphine

01-08-2009, 01:56 PM

IS everthing in the def stance a proc or just the taunt?

Kordran

01-08-2009, 02:11 PM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>I spent 2 hrs going through every spell and posted actual numbers from screenshots. Groups on testcopy in my timezone (there were 17 people total on) aren't going to happen.Thank you for your thoughtfull fact filled response.</blockquote>I think everyone appreciates the fact that you compiled this information, but from what I can tell in this thread, no one has actually played their Paladin in a group with these changes yet, and talked about the practical, real-world experience they had. That's what I'm interested in. Paladins aren't going to be tanking in a vacuum, and there were some pretty broad, sweeping changes made to a lot of classes. What I think is most important is how everything interacts together, not just the changes to the Paladin in isolation.And frankly, if we want the Aeralik to pay attention to us at all, that is the kind information that we need to give him. In fact, he's explicitly said as much. They're looking for feedback from Paladins who have actually played with the new changes on the test server.

Kordran

01-08-2009, 02:15 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll hold my OT/MT position in my guild for some while and I'll adapt to deal with it... but if we decide to do OK again I'm just going to have to turn around to the raid leader and say: "listen... get the chanter to tank this one as I've been shafted in AoE hate so hard I can taste the nerf stick coming out the other end.".</blockquote>It's funny, because when I was reading the patch notes, I was thinking about that fight. It'll be interesting, to say the least.

Niou

01-08-2009, 03:03 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>I spent 2 hrs going through every spell and posted actual numbers from screenshots. Groups on testcopy in my timezone (there were 17 people total on) aren't going to happen.Thank you for your thoughtfull fact filled response.</blockquote>I think everyone appreciates the fact that you compiled this information, but from what I can tell in this thread, no one has actually played their Paladin in a group with these changes yet, and talked about the practical, real-world experience they had. That's what I'm interested in. Paladins aren't going to be tanking in a vacuum, and there were some pretty broad, sweeping changes made to a lot of classes. What I think is most important is how everything interacts together, not just the changes to the Paladin in isolation.And frankly, if we want the Aeralik to pay attention to us at all, that is the kind information that we need to give him. In fact, he's explicitly said as much. They're looking for feedback from Paladins who have actually played with the new changes on the test server.</blockquote>The Paladin's here that actually know what they're talking about don't need to test the changes to understand what has been done. Why? Simple, You don't need to be punched in the face to know it hurts.Aeralik has already stated the reason Amends was taken away. It was done so that SK's and Zerkers could become the new AoE tanks, while Paladin's followed after Guardian's as Single Target Tanks.Can we hold Agro in little stupid instances? YES, big freaking whoop, so can monks and bruisers.What has been done here is detrimental to Raiding Paladins. Thats why people are upset. It's easy to keep hate, with or without amends, that part doesn't matter. It's the fact that Paladins are now Single Target Tanks in Raid Encounters without the defensive capability's of Guardians that matters.Every Raiding paladin looked at that update and knew they were screwed. Unless Aeralik is a [Removed for Content], he knew it too. So he spewed some crap out about a "really incredible taunt" called amends and told everybody to run and test it before complaining. Test what? the fact that we can tank instances? Amazing.If they want us to be single target tanks, they need to give us the tools to do so. Until then, we're just broken Guardian's without stoneskin effects and useless to a raid.

Mihos

01-08-2009, 03:20 PM

I feel for you guys.I really liked having Paladins around in raids. Ours left and we won't be looking for another.I still don't understand where their vision for all this is going.....

Full_Metal_Mage

01-08-2009, 03:34 PM

<cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>I spent 2 hrs going through every spell and posted actual numbers from screenshots. Groups on testcopy in my timezone (there were 17 people total on) aren't going to happen.Thank you for your thoughtfull fact filled response.</blockquote>I think everyone appreciates the fact that you compiled this information, but from what I can tell in this thread, no one has actually played their Paladin in a group with these changes yet, and talked about the practical, real-world experience they had. That's what I'm interested in. Paladins aren't going to be tanking in a vacuum, and there were some pretty broad, sweeping changes made to a lot of classes. What I think is most important is how everything interacts together, not just the changes to the Paladin in isolation.And frankly, if we want the Aeralik to pay attention to us at all, that is the kind information that we need to give him. In fact, he's explicitly said as much. They're looking for feedback from Paladins who have actually played with the new changes on the test server.</blockquote>The Paladin's here that actually know what they're talking about don't need to test the changes to understand what has been done. Why? Simple, You don't need to be punched in the face to know it hurts.Aeralik has already stated the reason Amends was taken away. It was done so that SK's and Zerkers could become the new AoE tanks, while Paladin's followed after Guardian's as Single Target Tanks.Can we hold Agro in little stupid instances? YES, big freaking whoop, so can monks and bruisers.What has been done here is detrimental to Raiding Paladins. Thats why people are upset. It's easy to keep hate, with or without amends, that part doesn't matter. It's the fact that Paladins are now Single Target Tanks in Raid Encounters without the defensive capability's of Guardians that matters.Every Raiding paladin looked at that update and knew they were screwed. Unless Aeralik is a [Removed for Content], he knew it too. So he spewed some crap out about a "really incredible taunt" called amends and told everybody to run and test it before complaining. Test what? the fact that we can tank instances? Amazing.If they want us to be single target tanks, they need to give us the tools to do so. Until then, we're just broken Guardian's without stoneskin effects and useless to a raid.</blockquote>I don't thing there is any longer room to debate that.

Zapat

01-08-2009, 03:50 PM

<cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>I spent 2 hrs going through every spell and posted actual numbers from screenshots. Groups on testcopy in my timezone (there were 17 people total on) aren't going to happen.Thank you for your thoughtfull fact filled response.</blockquote>I think everyone appreciates the fact that you compiled this information, but from what I can tell in this thread, no one has actually played their Paladin in a group with these changes yet, and talked about the practical, real-world experience they had. That's what I'm interested in. Paladins aren't going to be tanking in a vacuum, and there were some pretty broad, sweeping changes made to a lot of classes. What I think is most important is how everything interacts together, not just the changes to the Paladin in isolation.And frankly, if we want the Aeralik to pay attention to us at all, that is the kind information that we need to give him. In fact, he's explicitly said as much. They're looking for feedback from Paladins who have actually played with the new changes on the test server.</blockquote>The Paladin's here that actually know what they're talking about don't need to test the changes to understand what has been done. Why? Simple, You don't need to be punched in the face to know it hurts.Aeralik has already stated the reason Amends was taken away. It was done so that SK's and Zerkers could become the new AoE tanks, while Paladin's followed after Guardian's as Single Target Tanks.Can we hold Agro in little stupid instances? YES, big freaking whoop, so can monks and bruisers.What has been done here is detrimental to Raiding Paladins. Thats why people are upset. It's easy to keep hate, with or without amends, that part doesn't matter. It's the fact that Paladins are now Single Target Tanks in Raid Encounters without the defensive capability's of Guardians that matters.Every Raiding paladin looked at that update and knew they were screwed. Unless Aeralik is a [Removed for Content], he knew it too. So he spewed some crap out about a "really incredible taunt" called amends and told everybody to run and test it before complaining. Test what? the fact that we can tank instances? Amazing.If they want us to be single target tanks, they need to give us the tools to do so. Until then, we're just broken Guardian's without stoneskin effects and useless to a raid.</blockquote>EXACTLY... as soon as i read up on the freakin' changes i already knew this was going to hurt us, i've played a Pally since day one, so i am experienced and know what im talking about.and it is almost impossible for us to be single target tanks since we dont truly excel in anything besides aggro control meaning have no spike damage survivability, and on top of that we have quite a few AE's. so how does it make sense exactly to completely revamp and turn us into single-target tanks?

RafaelSmith

01-08-2009, 03:50 PM

These changes coupled with the heavy bias toward AE in TSO have pretty much nullified the so called single target specialist.We're both(Pally/Guard) are going to be sitting around watching the SK MT everything while matching the scouts and mages on the DPS chart =P

denmom

01-10-2009, 06:14 AM

Okay, just back from Test Copy.First off, tested fighting the charging grindhoofs around the Skleross quest tent in Jarsath Wastes near the Howling Stones post. That's where Pheep was when I logged in. All of these tests were of what would be normal fighting for Pheep when solo and duo'd.Offensive stance, 15-17 secs to kill.Defensive stance, 25-27 secs.Not good.I went to where the yha-lei are, and had the same results in offensive stance, worse results in defensive stance. These were against white even and white ^. My guildee's Wiz joined me, finally being on Test Copy as well.EDIT: Doh, forgot, the Wiz is raid spec'd. My Paladin isn't.We tested first with Pheep in offensive stance.I pulled as usual, used my usual cycle, and promptly lost all aggro to the Wiz's first shot.After we stopped laughing at how close the death was for the Wiz, we tried it with defensive mode.Didn't lose aggro at all. Even when I did a deliberate social pull, firing an arrow at a patroller who brought over his nearby friend. Used the blue ae with the new threat component once, and maintained aggro on the 2nd mob, even tho the Wiz unloaded on it while I worked on the first.We did a deliberate testing of regaining hate/threat by doing what would be a usual stripping of the mob off Pheep by the Wiz: a body pull with the Wiz fast on the casting. The mob ran by Pheep right to the Wiz, but one taunt of the new Amends yanked it right off, but before I could solidify it the mob turned around again, but the dotting taunt yanked it back and when I followed with the threat laden Kick and shield bash, it stuck to me solid.Now all that happened in seconds.In our testing, the Wiz couldn't strip aggro off me. I didn't have to use the Amends line at all save for when we went for a deliberate try of my losing aggro. And even then it was hard to lose it.What I really do not like is the extreme loss of dps.Offensive: average of 1500-1600Defensive: average of 500-800No stance: average of 950I duo with a Warden. With the above numbers, this means the Warden will have to do more attacks to make up for the lack of dps in defensive stance, or we wait until we can trio with our guildees and friends or we PUG.When the Wiz ran ACT to check my dps, she didn't attack at all while I was in offensive mode so didn't get any aggro at all. This tells me that the Warden would have to do the same thing in our duos if I go offensive but I'm willing to bet the first heal and there goes the mob to eat the healer.Overall, defensive mode is great, a wonderful thing when in a group. It's offensive mode that's the real problem, imho.Suggestion: please remove the dethreats when in offensive mode. This is a detriment for us Paladins who run in duos and are the main damage dealers. It can be a possible group enforcing element, and a bad one for those of us who duo out of preference or time constraints due to RL (work, family, school etc.).

denmom

01-10-2009, 06:20 AM

<cite>Zapatta wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>I spent 2 hrs going through every spell and posted actual numbers from screenshots. Groups on testcopy in my timezone (there were 17 people total on) aren't going to happen.Thank you for your thoughtfull fact filled response.</blockquote>I think everyone appreciates the fact that you compiled this information, but from what I can tell in this thread, no one has actually played their Paladin in a group with these changes yet, and talked about the practical, real-world experience they had. That's what I'm interested in. Paladins aren't going to be tanking in a vacuum, and there were some pretty broad, sweeping changes made to a lot of classes. What I think is most important is how everything interacts together, not just the changes to the Paladin in isolation.And frankly, if we want the Aeralik to pay attention to us at all, that is the kind information that we need to give him. In fact, he's explicitly said as much. They're looking for feedback from Paladins who have actually played with the new changes on the test server.</blockquote>The Paladin's here that actually know what they're talking about don't need to test the changes to understand what has been done. Why? Simple, You don't need to be punched in the face to know it hurts.Aeralik has already stated the reason Amends was taken away. It was done so that SK's and Zerkers could become the new AoE tanks, while Paladin's followed after Guardian's as Single Target Tanks.Can we hold Agro in little stupid instances? YES, big freaking whoop, so can monks and bruisers.What has been done here is detrimental to Raiding Paladins. Thats why people are upset. It's easy to keep hate, with or without amends, that part doesn't matter. It's the fact that Paladins are now Single Target Tanks in Raid Encounters without the defensive capability's of Guardians that matters.Every Raiding paladin looked at that update and knew they were screwed. Unless Aeralik is a [Removed for Content], he knew it too. So he spewed some crap out about a "really incredible taunt" called amends and told everybody to run and test it before complaining. Test what? the fact that we can tank instances? Amazing.If they want us to be single target tanks, they need to give us the tools to do so. Until then, we're just broken Guardian's without stoneskin effects and useless to a raid.</blockquote>EXACTLY... as soon as i read up on the freakin' changes i already knew this was going to hurt us, i've played a Pally since day one, so i am experienced and know what im talking about.and it is almost impossible for us to be single target tanks since we dont truly excel in anything besides aggro control meaning have no spike damage survivability, and on top of that we have quite a few AE's. so how does it make sense exactly to completely revamp and turn us into single-target tanks?</blockquote>Uhm, what do you mean by that? Single unlinked or linked? Sorry for the noobness on that question. >_<When I tested Pheep a few minutes ago, I had several single unlinked mobs while my guildee's Wizard was cutting loose while I was in defensive mode.As long as I cycled thru the blue aoe with the new threat addition, I could keep the mobs on Pheep, even when the Wiz moved from target to target.I can still do the usual group holding by use of aoes as I do on live, even better now with that open blue aoe.I read how folks say that Paladins are single target...but, uh, I can hold groups just fine...O_oI have the feeling I'm missing something since I don't raid and tend to have an odd style of play.

Feydakeen

01-10-2009, 07:21 AM

<cite>Mihos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I feel for you guys.I really liked having Paladins around in raids. Ours left and we won't be looking for another.I still don't understand where their vision for all this is going.....</blockquote>CHEER !!!I have whined and whines and whined about these changes as it will make my place in raid obsolete... But alas alot of people can only say: Get over it crybaby, whiner etc... That really hurts, especially since I have been vocal for years about fixing our brothers Zerkers and SK's.It's really nice to see other people agree these changes are just FUBARRED... Thanks.

Kordran

01-10-2009, 07:56 AM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Suggestion: please remove the dethreats when in offensive mode. This is a detriment for us Paladins who run in duos and are the main damage dealers. It can be a possible group enforcing element, and a bad one for those of us who duo out of preference or time constraints due to RL (work, family, school etc.).</blockquote>That's not going to happen because The Vision(tm) is to force fighters to pick a stance. But you're right, it does hurt some duo combinations where the Paladin is meant to be both DPS and tank. On the other hand, some combinations would probably be fine (example: the Paladin in defensive, and a Ranger with typical compliment of stun gear on, etc.). Some people have talked about not using stances at all, but as you've pointed out, you take a significant DPS hit there as well, so it's not a terribly good option either.I think five things would help out with this change to Paladins:1. Make the new Amends taunt castable through stuns/stifles/mez.2. Add Parry to our defensive stance. It was added to Shadow Knights, there's absolutely no justification I can think of to not give it to Paladins as well.3. Change the chance to proc threat in defensive to a reactive that triggers every time the Paladin is hit. To balance it out with the "super taunt" it doesn't need to be as large as other fighters, but it should be there.4. Add a stoneskin component to our ward, either on cast or on termination.5. Have the defensive stance significantly increase our focus, making it nearly impossible for heals/wards to be interrupted in combat, no matter how many mobs are hitting us; possibly add a multiplier to our heals to increase the threat ratio.Edit: Added a 5th there.

denmom

01-10-2009, 08:12 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Suggestion: please remove the dethreats when in offensive mode. This is a detriment for us Paladins who run in duos and are the main damage dealers. It can be a possible group enforcing element, and a bad one for those of us who duo out of preference or time constraints due to RL (work, family, school etc.).</blockquote>That's not going to happen because The Vision(tm) is to force fighters to pick a stance. But you're right, it does hurt some duo combinations where the Paladin is meant to be both DPS and tank. On the other hand, some combinations would probably be fine (example: the Paladin in defensive, and a Ranger with typical compliment of stun gear on, etc.). Some people have talked about not using stances at all, but as you've pointed out, you take a significant DPS hit there as well, so it's not a terribly good option either.</blockquote>Perhaps, perhaps not.Aeralik did say they wanted feedback. Kirstie did say feedback was read. Perhaps I'm thot of as a fool to think that just perhaps what I've said will be heard and taken into account.I'll admit that I am the argumentative type. I have thrown verbal bricks at devs in the past betas and testings out of frustration. I'm really trying to not give into that right now. >_<All I can do, all we can do is give them what they ask for in a polite manner, debate the same way their changes, and just perhaps changes will be made which will be better than what will be implemented.

Tharinor Degaulle

01-10-2009, 09:05 AM

Has anyone tested these changes in zones such as Ykeshan Outer Stronghold where long and often uncurable stun/stifle are the name of the game throughout the zone? I don't see how we're supposed to hold aggro in a zone like this especially with the changes in place. Seems to me that amends was the only reason we could hold aggro before, and that we haven't been given the required ability for passive hate gain and/or the ability to taunt while stun/stifled that is needed to generate enough hate to hold aggro through these debuffs.

Wulfgr

01-10-2009, 12:01 PM

Maybe time to betray to Shadow Knight ( A frog SK sounds pretty cool anyways.

Kordran

01-10-2009, 02:54 PM

I really would prefer to not betray, but if things stay as they are, I expect there will be a sit-down with my guild leadership and that's exactly what they're going to what me to do.God, all those masters, the gear ...

denmom

01-10-2009, 06:37 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really would prefer to not betray, but if things stay as they are, I expect there will be a sit-down with my guild leadership and that's exactly what they're going to what me to do.God, all those masters, the gear ...</blockquote>I'm right there with you.I don't want to retire my Paladin again. I did once after LU13, and brought her back out a bit after the new progression and seeing what my husband's Paladin was doing in the higher levels...made me want to play Pheep again.I really am trying to not be doom and gloom...but I cant' help to see GU51 as EQ2's NGE. >_<

Plaidler

01-10-2009, 09:02 PM

played around on test copy last night for a few hours solo.....i hated iti will try hard to find a group on test server but after playing the same toon for 4 years i know already whats going to happen and what isnt going to work.-no more plaidler for the OK fight in korsha-no more plaidler for running an instance with one healer cause he heals while tanking-no more 10 mob encounters where 4 years experience allows me to survive these encounters where others cant-no more duo/trio zones where i can throw out a tonn of healing and utility whilst tanking-no more raiding, my raid leader would be a fool to bring me over our sk as OT or me over our guardian as mt, i cant offer a fraction of what these guys can do a lot better now-half my spells/CA's are dedicated to aoe encounters, all useless, they produce no agro so whilst casting them with the hit to dps in def stance, im losing agro immediately and the group around me dies-no more drushk adds, i now have NO passive hate so when im disarmed, force targeted im producing zero agro, thus am useless.- no more fun mentoring where i can be in off stance and help lower toons get through content quickly, in off stance everything i do deagro's nowI got made to be a single target tank, i have no tower of stone, no temp mit buffs, not temp def buffs, nothing, all i ever had was my ability to self heal and make up the difference which is what the core of my class was designed for.I wont last 5 sec in an AOE fight, i have no tools to deal with multiple mobs effectively through stuns/stifles/ etc, which TSO is full of.All in all, every aspect of the game has changed, raids, instances, mentoring,duoing/trioing.late nights with my bruiser friend in KP farming the castle me healing/tanking him running around dps'ing, no moreduoing UNrest with my illy friend and killing Bugaboo with just the 2 of us? never againSeeing my mystic friend go down in an instance but hitting stoneskin/consecrate/ holy ground and keeping the group alive till mobs are dead and or rezzing healer, never againsending a tell to our assasin after tanking phar and holding agro with just amends on him and no dirge sucsessfully and telling him "well done", no morewith no passive hate im dead in the water and all the specialist fights designed for me in mind and the tools i had to handle them, are now overdont tell me all fighters are the same now, who the hell wants them to be?we all had something unique to offer a raid or encounter, now that is no morewe all had core abilities, i have none now.all gone my friendsall gonePlaidler

Marcusaval

01-11-2009, 06:18 AM

Ok I will admit I have not played my Paladin on test and will see what happens when GU51 goes live. I have read most of the comments both on this forum and EQII flames; I think I can truthfully say you will struggle to find any positive ones.I have been my guilds OT for quite some time and its clear these changes mean I will in all no longer have that role as the reason we had it was our ability to handle multiple mobs and now an SK or Zerker will do that much better than we can and we are not as good as a Guardian as a MT.I feel intense loyality to the Paladin class and have no desire to betray to SK which leaves me little option. I spent a lot of KOS and the start of EOF in the wilderness unable to get a slot in a decent raid nobody wanted a Paladin back then ( it was Guardians and Berzerkers) and I really think quiting the game is a better option than; rolling another toon(I would have done it by now if I was going to)/just doing instances/pick up raids. I cant understand the logic behind the changes there is nothing good for a Paladin in these changes at all. The developers have not explained there logic or what they are trying to achieve. I cant understand why the developers have decided we no longer have a role. Its very unfair and having spent years developing this Character I feel very angry and bitter.

Anurra

01-11-2009, 03:25 PM

Our guild runs with a guardian MT and a paladin OT (not me, I raid with a brigand). After these changes were posted, we started to do a massive final run of all lower tier raids in RoK in order to get everyone flagged for VP, mythical updates, and Fate of Norrath Quest Updates.Why?Because our paladin (who is also on the raid team), KNOWS his class and knows what these changes will do. I am not in the leadership so I cannot speak on what they will do. Needless to say, these changes are causing stress in other classes from the guild because not everyone can make this final hurra of flagging. And in the future, with our setup, there will be an issue in tanking types of encounters (OK).Maybe it'll all end up alright. I am waiting for my paladin to get copied over to test. From playing this class (Paladin) for years, I can see some glaring issues with the changes. If the developers really listen to the paladin community and give us the tools we need to do the job right, then, it wont be AS bad. But changing the class focus from AE OT to ST MT after 4-5 years is going to get people to outlash no matter what you do. I also find it slightly funny how paladins will be the "second best" single target tanks, by the end of these changes. They should be even (same for AE tanks) but do their jobs in different ways.

Irgun

01-11-2009, 03:51 PM

<cite>Anurra@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I also find it slightly funny how paladins will be the "second best" single target tanks, by the end of these changes. They should be even (same for AE tanks) but do their jobs in different ways.</blockquote>/agreeThis also counts for different aggro mechanism. Amends is necessary to fill the gap while the paladin is healing - this great relation between these two abilities now has been crippled in a horrible way.As always: "You dont win silver, you lose gold!"

kemlo

01-11-2009, 11:41 PM

we have no passive hate gain....guards do (and they are single target as well) our defence is now lower than all the other plate tanks, and we have the lowest avoidance out of them all. the FIRST person who says "but you can heal" can jump up their own A*SS and die, as has already been pointed out our heals really do jack sh*t and are very easily interupted, on top of that, they dont generate as much hate so you get a definate dip in your hate output when you bring heals into the casting rotation and as any raid pally should know.....you do not want to be saying every 20 or so seconds "healing ease up a bit" to the dps <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (SK's dont get this, their heals are all nicely linked to dps, and thanks to their epic..generate 300% more hate.....oh and while they are able to heal themselves better (or at least a more constant stream....they also have markably higher avoidance and defensive abilities than us now as well)essentially we have been made into the 1 and only instance tanks......we have nothing to bring to a raid, guard single target aggro is better, their defence is better, their oops abilities are better, they have more hp, stats are easier to buff etc. our dps is about the same now (we MAY be a couple of hundred dps higher than them.....but that sure as hell doesntmake up for the rest of the skills we lack)with the right group setup......very careful pulling, and dps knowing when to ease up......we could in theory do all of the instances in TSO (i have not been able to finish outer stronghold on test yet......its taking alot of getting used to, but i cant imagine the devs have screwed up so badly as to make it so we cant even cover all group content as tanks)by the looks of it guilds are going to simply return to the 2 guards, and a zerker (now SK) for tanks, 2 single and an AoE, there is no need for us anymore anything we can do...they can do better (cept ofc heal....)the previous statement by Aeralik about us being 2nd single target defensive tanks was correct......we are indeed the 2nd most defensive single target tanks........only problem is both of the AoE tanks have better defence than us as well!!!

Slaid99

01-12-2009, 03:21 AM

I am not on the test server, nor am I testing a paly build with any of these changes.. but after reading this area, I am truly disheartened. After playing my paly for 2 years and going from the "dyingest" guy around to a very good tank and secondary tank paly... my only hope is that whatever is being said here is not going to come to pass.Face it.. I have my paly spec'd for pvp, but play on a non-pvp server. Its the only way I have found to be truly effective in instances and raids. 80% of my game play is with me in MT position unless we have a guard online, then I happily fall into secondary tank position. Everyone loves me in the group, because if the guard gets into trouble, I can shield him so the heals can catch up and secondary heal if needed (which is rare). If the unthinkable happens and he loses aggro... well.. even without spec'ing for hate.. I can be an aggro hound and grab the entire mob with a click.. 2 at most. Its very rare that a healer/mezzer will die when I am in the group. I dps at about 1800 solo, and against mobs have been up to about 3800 (keeping up with my dps classes!).Now I read that the real reason I am useful is gone.. (basically protecting the supporting classes), what's the use.If what I read here is truly going to happen, I will just have to fork out the change to become a SK and relearn a new class. All this after going through a year of "I'm sorry, we need a guard to tank, no spot available for a paly".Two choices for me if this is true... betray or park the paly until someone grabs a brain...

Cakassis

01-12-2009, 04:14 AM

Screwed around on test w/ my pally as well. It's moderatly well geared and mastered out and I've played it for a little over 5 4 years. Agro control is less of an issue I than I thought it was going to be, but it's still [Removed for Content]'d. Multi-encounter fighters were very problematic.The more and more I work with these changes, the more and more I question the decision-making process which led to them being implemented.This is a change which is leading to a fundamental change in the combat mechanics. People who have played the game for years are going to log in after GU51 goes live and find out they have no idea how to play their class. What their spell or CA orders are, and how to keep themselves alive. Didn't SoE have another game where they made fundamental changes to the combat mechanics years after launch? How'd that turn out?

denmom

01-12-2009, 06:31 AM

<cite>Cakassis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Didn't SoE have another game where they made fundamental changes to the combat mechanics years after launch? How'd that turn out?</blockquote>Star Wars' NGE.That was Lucas' idea to make match Star Wars: Battlefront 2. He had the control and sway to get what he wanted, SOE had to provide, and SOE gets the blame for what he decided.But this time, it's all on SOE.I can't help but see GU51 as NGE + LU13. >_<

Kordran

01-12-2009, 03:25 PM

<cite>kemlo wrote:</cite><blockquote>...our defence is now lower than all the other plate tanks, and we have the lowest avoidance out of them all.</blockquote>This largely comes down to an issue that I had mentioned back during the beta. Purely in terms of game mechanics, this can be overcome. I suspect that the players who are going to have a much tougher time with these changes are going to be the ones who are leveling up or mostly in a mix of quested legendary and mastercrafted gear. I've looked at a lot of the profiles for the Paladins posting here and see folks with health < 10K, avoidance in the 30s or 40s, etc. That's who these changes are really going to hurt. Geared Paladins, particularly those with > 180 APs, will be able to compensate somewhat (careful timing with the new Amends and Faithful Cry, gear with hate reactives, etc.) But it's unfair to "balance" the class thinking that every Paladin is going to have > 60% mitigation, > 60% avoidance, > 14K health, fabled and a full set of T2 void armor and 200 APs.I don't doubt that some raiding Paladins will be given a choice: betray to a Shadow Knight, or give up your slot in the raid. Others will probably just quit outright rather than wanting to relearn their class after years of playing, and they'll be replaced by an SK or a Berserker. Leveling up a Paladin will become even harder; the tradeoff of more taking more damage (and therefore more healing and/or selecting weaker mobs) in offensive, or even slower soloing in defensive. That pretty much guts the playerbase of Paladins on the low and high ends. I'd imagine those in the process of leveling one up as an alt will probably just shelve it, hoping for changes at some point in the future.The future isn't looking too bright for the class.

denmom

01-12-2009, 05:21 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kemlo wrote:</cite><blockquote>...our defence is now lower than all the other plate tanks, and we have the lowest avoidance out of them all.</blockquote>This largely comes down to an issue that I had mentioned back during the beta. Purely in terms of game mechanics, this can be overcome. I suspect that the players who are going to have a much tougher time with these changes are going to be the ones who are leveling up or mostly in a mix of quested legendary and mastercrafted gear. I've looked at a lot of the profiles for the Paladins posting here and see folks with health < 10K, avoidance in the 30s or 40s, etc. That's who these changes are really going to hurt. Geared Paladins, particularly those with > 180 APs, will be able to compensate somewhat (careful timing with the new Amends and Faithful Cry, gear with hate reactives, etc.) But it's unfair to "balance" the class thinking that every Paladin is going to have > 60% mitigation, > 60% avoidance, > 14K health, fabled and a full set of T2 void armor and 200 APs.I don't doubt that some raiding Paladins will be given a choice: betray to a Shadow Knight, or give up your slot in the raid. Others will probably just quit outright rather than wanting to relearn their class after years of playing, and they'll be replaced by an SK or a Berserker. Leveling up a Paladin will become even harder; the tradeoff of more taking more damage (and therefore more healing and/or selecting weaker mobs) in offensive, or even slower soloing in defensive. That pretty much guts the playerbase of Paladins on the low and high ends. I'd imagine those in the process of leveling one up as an alt will probably just shelve it, hoping for changes at some point in the future.The future isn't looking too bright for the class.</blockquote>Yah, Pheep is one of those lower geared. I had just hit L80 when these changes were announced. I was waiting until L80 to gear her out better but now...it'll just be a waste of plat right now to get her geared up as I want her to be only to have to spend more to get her "correctly" outfitted as the devs want her to be played.I'll prolly still play her, do tanking thru DFC or other areas when it's needed for friends and guildees...I just feel it's becoming a lost cause...I'm still fighting, but it's like a mouse trying to take on a T-rex. >_<

betatester7

01-12-2009, 10:19 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cakassis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Didn't SoE have another game where they made fundamental changes to the combat mechanics years after launch? How'd that turn out?</blockquote>Star Wars' NGE.That was Lucas' idea to make match Star Wars: Battlefront 2. He had the control and sway to get what he wanted, SOE had to provide, and SOE gets the blame for what he decided.But this time, it's all on SOE.I can't help but see GU51 as NGE + LU13. >_<</blockquote>What are you talking about? What has to do SW with EQ2?

denmom

01-12-2009, 11:11 PM

<cite>betatester7 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cakassis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Didn't SoE have another game where they made fundamental changes to the combat mechanics years after launch? How'd that turn out?</blockquote>Star Wars' NGE.That was Lucas' idea to make match Star Wars: Battlefront 2. He had the control and sway to get what he wanted, SOE had to provide, and SOE gets the blame for what he decided.But this time, it's all on SOE.I can't help but see GU51 as NGE + LU13. >_<</blockquote>What are you talking about? What has to do SW with EQ2?</blockquote>Cakassis was asking what other SoE game had something similar, combat revamp and utter changing of classes. I was just answering which it was.Both SW and EQ2 are SoE games. SWG had a drastic design change in terms of game play and char classes 2 yrs after it launched. We're facing similar with GU51. Hence my comparison.

Antryg Mistrose

01-13-2009, 03:18 AM

Parry has made it into our defensive stance. Updated original post to reflect this.

VALKOR

01-14-2009, 08:12 PM

I wonder if Kordran is right and this will be an issue of gear to some extent. On the plus side, I have focused almost exclusively on my paladin since EQ2 started, but on the minus side I'm not that conversant with the abilities of other classes outside of how they relate to what I need to do in groups and raids.I have to carry around a lot of gear to both tank and DPS effectively, but my numbers are comparable to the guardian (bit less mitigation but same avoidance and better block). There are so many variables that I hesitate to make that claim so simply take it as another viewpoint. I also MT in a casual raiding guild, which means our classes and raid setup vary a lot more, so it could well be that hard-core guilds are going to pick one raid setup and go with just that and the raid setup does influence how well a tank does so if they set it up for guardians then the paladin will have issues stepping into someone else's game. I think Holy Ground will keep us as the best OT when not being MT but that remains to be seen. Intercede is of course another important ability, and we can certainly soak up damage especially with ward running first and heals following, but the usefulness depends on your raid approach to those situations. The non-fighter mitigation boost is actually more important in recent raid zones as they have upped the crush/slash AoEs of raid mobs and the non-fighters obviously get a much larger benefit since they aren't typically into diminshing returns on mitigation.The improvements to Divine Aura, along with RoK abilities and Shadow Odyssey AA, have helped close the gap on temporary resists and snap aggro (though I find the final SO paladin line to be rather boring for tanking - a 1 hit stoneskin isn't all that great). I have really enjoyed the last few months where I have been able to main tank VP (yes, before mythical) and do initial Shadow Odyssey raid content and it will indeed stink if the gloomy predictions in this forum are right. I like trading off with the Guardian or SK so we can rotate duties and try out different roles.My testing in Obelisk with a monk was similar to what Pheep reported. Neither of us could take aggro off the other one if the tank was defensive and the other was offensive, even when intentionally skipping taunts or deaggros. Glad to hear the test with the wizard was the same, though it will make it difficult for certain duos and small groups to be viable.

Antryg Mistrose

01-14-2009, 11:29 PM

If you are on test, you may want to feedback that a visual indication of stance would be VERY useful - either on the stances themselves, or the taunts which change into detaunts, 'cause accidents are sure going to happen ....

Meirril

01-20-2009, 01:04 AM

Look on the bright side. Next year at this time paladin masters should be cheap and plentiful.More seriously, we need some non-agro changes. In long encounters, amends use to help us maintain agro even when we slowed DPS. If we actually need to heal, those are huge power hogs. In general, our power costs need to be reduced to compensate for the reduction in passive hate gain.Also, if we're going to be expected to compete with guardians we'll need a trick that paladins can do but other fighters don't do better. Right now, that is hold agro. If we are going to be equal to guardians in the agro generation department (so far it looks like we're dead last in a 6 fighter race), we need somewhere else we can shine.As discussed above, healing is NOT it. Our healing is inadequate in solo content, anemic in heroic content, and laughable in epic content. Boosting our healing abilities will just anger the priest community without pleasing us. We're here to tank, not to become almost priests.One of the comments above is very telling, we're extremely vulnerable to control abilities. Even more so than other tanks due to the nature of our new passive taunt and lower DPS. One suggestion to fix this would be to add in either an immunity component (reactive, passive, proc?), or a self-cure component (not just an AA line).Another possibility would be to add in a stoneskin ability based on taking massive damage. Say we get a 1 second invincability for every 5% of HP in excess of 50% max HP we take in a single blow? So the next time I get hit for 80% of my max I get 6 seconds to recover? If not invincable, how about a 100% uncontested parry for that duration so melee attacks alone won't finish us off?Finally, how about a new amends-like buff? If target is hit the target looses 2 hate positions? This would allow the paladin to choose a next most likely target just like the prior amends to protect without the hate gain we currently enjoy. It could also be a one trigger buff that needs to be re-cast once triggered.With the removal of the paladin's one trick pony, paladins need new tricks to keep them in the game. Otherwise we're just not good enough to compete.

Anurra

01-20-2009, 04:34 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Finally, how about a new amends-like buff? If target is hit the target looses 2 hate positions? This would allow the paladin to choose a next most likely target just like the prior amends to protect without the hate gain we currently enjoy. It could also be a one trigger buff that needs to be re-cast once triggered.With the removal of the paladin's one trick pony, paladins need new tricks to keep them in the game. Otherwise we're just not good enough to compete.</blockquote>Not sure if you know, but Brigands have a buff just like this:<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Beg_for_Mercy" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Beg_for_Mercy</a>I'm only posting because you seem to imply that you wanted Paladins to get something new and different <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Prestissimo

01-20-2009, 07:09 PM

I still don't see any answer from a developer stating what the paladin IS capable of doing or bringing to the table. I assume that their silence is acknoledging that there is nothing and that they've really screwed the pooch.We curently are the only tanks that have absolutely no form of way to counter control effects, and seeing as almost all of TSO is based on those, I believe that it is owed to us to explain why they are doing this. That is seriously not funny to release a new expansion with group content and control effects up the butt, and take the one tank that was possitioned to FINALLY be the super tank, and then completely flip the class, take away that one niche, and once again, completely shaft the class into oblivion RIGHT when they had a chance to redeem themselves as a great choice of a tank. Honestly, if they don't start giving something back right away, it should at minimum be owed to us to give a free betrayal over to another tank class with equivilant spells and fabled/mythical weapon if applicable. What they are doing is equal to ninja changing the assassin into a ranger thats not allowed to use arrows.

Kordran

01-20-2009, 07:31 PM

It's not entirely correct to say that there's "no way" to counter control effects; the problem with AotC is that it doesn't work with all control effects (does nothing with charm/mez) and it's twitchy; if you cast it, and the healer gets it off you a split second faster, then it cycles even when there was no effect was cleared and it's out of commission with no preventive buff up. Of course, the real issue is that so many of the control effects from named are also flagged as uncurable, so it does nothing anyway.To my mind, there's two things they need to do at a minimum:1. Change Excoriation (encounter taunt) and Restitution (the replacement for Amends) to allow them to be cast through any control effect;2. Add 3 triggers to Stonewall, because absorbing a single attack is functionally useless.They do that, and I think Paladins would be in pretty good shape.

Prestissimo

01-21-2009, 06:55 AM

My idea for fixing practically 3/4 of the paladin issues in one go is to change the hate proc on our defensive stance.As it currently stands, from just taunts alone, the paladin can generate roughly 200k threat in 1 minute (not counting dps, rescue, sneering assault, or threat possitions because they wouldn't and shouldn't be called "oh crap" spells if they actually were required to physically function under normal circumstances) and if you took where we stood before hand, we could generate a vast difference in our hate over one minute, but just for the sake of averages and giving us something of a "standard" to work towards, lets assume that we're looking at paladins amending a 6k dps group member. That is a pretty standard point of reference for a normal shard run with proper set up and toons that have T2 shard armor and equivilant gear. I've tanked a few runs with folks that are capable of more than 6k, but those were far between each other and would be addressed more by spike agro control, and is just overall poor class balance issues due to some characters having WAY too much dps given to them for tanks to overpower, so for my example I'm going to stick with the 6k amends target.GU51: 200k / minute worth of taunts. Add to that our dps, which I assume is going to be cut down by approximately 25% based on what I saw on test, so we'll use my dps prior to the update: 2.4k minus the 25% = 1,800 / second, or 108,000 /minute. That equalls out 308,000 hate per minute. Actively gained hate. Not alot of variance for high dps or low dps groups.Prior: 41% of 6k = 2,460 / second = 147,600 / minute. Include the paladins dps (mine is about 2.4k/second = 144,000 / minute) and taunts (18,900 / minute which of course assumes that the taunts ACTUALLY hit even dispite my average 55% of taunts resisted rate even with masters and 430 aggression, which is very shameful that they were that little of an effect...) by the way, I assume that 1 dps = 1 hate because otherwise taunts would have actually done something but doesn't explain why our taunts sucked so badly. That totals up to 310,500 hate per minute. Half is passively gained, and can vary based on group.There is only one major problem with these numbers. The top number assumes that you don't actually cast any healing spells, which basically contradicts the class's set up, and the fact that Aeralik wont acknowledge the fact that we don't have any surviveability, so are going to continue being forced to heal ourselves in order to make up the difference between us and other tanks. Because of that fact, personally, I believe the number we should be aiming towards is closer to 415,000 hate per minute average. That way, if we have to take about 15 seconds of that minute to heal ourselves (which is very commonly the case) we will still have enough hate to prevent losing hate, and if we need more hate to counter a higher dpsing toon, theres some wiggle room (as long as the healer can pick up the difference.)A good way to do so would be to change our defensive stance so that instead of a threat proc on auto-attack, make it a different spell proc altogether and have it instead proc when we are attacked via melee weapon (to give our passive hate gain similar to the guardians, aka the other defensive tank), when we successfully cast beneficial or hostile spells, or successfully melee attack or land a combat art. Of course the value of the taunt may have to be adjusted slightly up or down depending on how effective it turns out being.The main benefit to that form of buff is not only will it give us a form of passive hate, but it will also allow for us to control the amount of hate gained based on how quickly we throw our combat arts and the such. However, if we burn all of our abilities right away, everything will be on cool down and it will limit the amount of hate we generate. It will give a form of minor spike agro control without forcing us to use rescue, sneering assault, or holy ground. It also will encourage us to use our heals since they will generate hate and will paper over part of the whole surviveability issue that occurs by having to pick heals or hate. It would also be a very nice method to give the paladin something of high value that can be used for controlling hate in the group much like guardians have moderate. And lastly, one possibility if raiders are not happy due to a lack of hate capabilities, there could be some sort of focus ability added on to the VP set gear for example (seeing as our previous focus spell is now going to be gone) that doubles the effectiveness of the proc so that the raiding paladins will gain enough hate from it to counter the assassins and wizards that are doing 10k dps, if increasing aggression alone is not enough to make up the difference.Personally, I would be quite content to settle with that since it covers most of the remaining concerns the paladins have, and it leaves it in a very nice and easy to patch/update/adjust form of one buff so that it removes alot of the otherwise massive job that the developers would be facing addressing all the numerous flaws that amends has covered over this entire time. It also would allow us to have some form of unique and additional hate gain wiggle room against multiple mobs so the warlocks don't get killed after our one aoe threat is topped and it does it without the need for aoes. It would only require tabbing around and throwing a few combat arts or spells in order to generate some hate, then we can focus back on our primary target. It would still allow us a similar function to what we had before, but it would make us completely and solely responsible for our hate gain, and it would also allow us to do it while being single target tanks without losing all of our healing capacity. Since that proc would be different than the one on the offensive stance, it would satisfy the "tanking while in defense" theme and making adjustments to the offensive proc easier as well since it wouldn't have any chance of messing with the effects of the defensive stance.Edit: P.S. for those that didn't do the math or think that this method would be to overpowered, it would take 52.5 procs per minute in order to make up the 104k difference between the 310,500 / minute from prior to that estimated 415,000 which would more than adequately leave us as the top agro tanks, and preserve our previous "role" but allowing us to do it purely by ourselves by our own tools.

Antryg Mistrose

01-21-2009, 12:03 PM

200,000 a minute? The only way I can do that in real encounters on Test is if the encounters are all short enough and far apart enough that restitution is up for most of them, AND using the odd rescue and sneering assault. Legendary geared only though, and with a couple of taunts only adeptIIIs.Using just taunts ( Clarion, Penitent Kick, Heroic Dash, Excoration, Bayle's Stance, Circular Smite and Restitution)I make the theoretical sustained threat-per-second 2988 tps single target, which amounts to 179, 280 sustained tps - this just from examing all adept3 spells and looking at cast/recast/times and durations, and assuming a perfect casting order.DPS? mine is closer to 1k in defensive stance on yellow solo mobs.While a proc on whatever we cast would help up this a lot, it doesn't get around the twin issues of passive hate and survivability. In real fights on live on heroic content, I spend a fair bit of time NOT managing a perfect cast order, in fact not managing to do much at all with all the control effects about. That, is going to be fun when grouping with my mythical geared guildmates when this goes live.

Prestissimo

01-21-2009, 06:17 PM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>200,000 a minute? The only way I can do that in real encounters on Test is if the encounters are all short enough and far apart enough that restitution is up for most of them, AND using the odd rescue and sneering assault. Legendary geared only though, and with a couple of taunts only adeptIIIs.Using just taunts ( Clarion, Penitent Kick, Heroic Dash, Excoration, Bayle's Stance, Circular Smite and Restitution)I make the theoretical sustained threat-per-second 2988 tps single target, which amounts to 179, 280 sustained tps - this just from examing all adept3 spells and looking at cast/recast/times and durations, and assuming a perfect casting order.DPS? mine is closer to 1k in defensive stance on yellow solo mobs.While a proc on whatever we cast would help up this a lot, it doesn't get around the twin issues of passive hate and survivability. In real fights on live on heroic content, I spend a fair bit of time NOT managing a perfect cast order, in fact not managing to do much at all with all the control effects about. That, is going to be fun when grouping with my mythical geared guildmates when this goes live.</blockquote>I know that it is not a perfect solution, but it does give the same passive hate that the guardian's reactive gives, and they manage to do ok with what they have, so we in theory should be able to do so as well. Additionally with this, you will no longer be punished for healing/warding yourself since they will be giving additional threat when you heal which will help us some as well. It doesn't solve our surviveability issue, but it does help and without taking away anything like the origional plan was going to.Also, in my example the taunts were assumed to hit 100% of the time and it was an average between the low end and crits, which Aeralik really needs to address the current 50% hit rate on live (since he is mechanics after all) as well as the developers need to add in more ways to crit taunt. You may be doing 180k hate (which will get significantly bigger when you get all of the taunt bonuses from AAs) and (1k dps * 60=) 60k hate from damage, and you are additionally probably either meeting or exceeding about 60 procs per minute of the proc I described when you are in groups. The math may not add up for someone that is not using their mythical or using full tier 1 or 2 shard armor, or using mostly master taunts like I'm using in my example, but there is also many tanks geared better and worse than I am, so no matter what, I cannot provide examples for everyone's situation. I'm just picking a reasonable middle.The main focus of this change would be putting the entire balancing of the class onto the developers seeing as they apparently wanted to take on the role of fixing all of the paladins problems or they wouldn't have changed amends to start with. (My theory is that a paladin out parsed Aeralik on a multi-mob encounter and he just can't stand that being possible anymore.) The nice thing about this method though is that all that they would have to do is alter the amount of hate that procs off of that ability based on how effective it is, or they could add additional aggression to tank gear and make aggression impact threat enough that not only will the standard tank that JUST hit 80 in basic tank gear be able to hold agro against similarly geared toons, but also raiders that have access to better gear (that should have alot more aggression on it) will be able to hold agro off of 10k dpsing toons since he's obviously not about to lower the assassins dps. Don't forget that there are also still some hate transfers out there such as the assassins which remained untouched, and spare some that were completely removed, the others that remain are now alot less effective but still existant. (Boy, someone REALLY needs to stop playing favorites.)

Antryg Mistrose

01-22-2009, 08:56 AM

More tweaks on test - edited first post to reflect them.<ul><li>Less power and faster reuse on single target taunt (this is our supposed advantage with Monks/Guards over the "AOE based threat classes")</li><li>Stance dancing disabled (common recast time added to stances)</li><li>Detaunts removed from taunts in offensive stance, those that you can still cast in offensive stance (there are 5 you can't) are still taunts.</li><li>Wis added to offensive stance</li><li>According to the patch notes "The paladin’s heal spells will now generate additional hate for the paladin" - this is not examinable on the actual spells, so amounts are unknown.</li></ul>

Anurra

01-22-2009, 12:52 PM

We really need some form of passive hate. I was in Nurga(sp?) last night with 2 mythical assassins, illy and coercer (I'm only an instance/legendary tank). I had a defiler solo healing me. On the drake named, he was spiking me badly (a critical hit and a double critical hit = the lose, lol. Yes I need some more crit mit gear) and I had to spam all my heals and ward just to stay alive. If I did not have amends (PASSIVE HATE), we could not of defeated the encounter. After we got the goblins down, we wiped and came back to kill the drake. lol my DPS for the solo drake fight was about 300 but I was second on the heal parse.Would be kinda nice if amends lasted the full minute(so you could have it up all the time) and make it work through control affects. They can fiddle around with the threat per second for it after the duration change. This would allow Paladins to always have passive hate (which we really need and was THE class feature) and then we can heal ourselves much like in the situation I just described. Oh, it would also work with the Single Tank theme SoE wants - as we will have to choose our single target to place the taunt on. /shrug, just throwing it out there.

VALKOR

01-23-2009, 01:17 PM

I have posted a lot recently incorporating what other paladins are saying and that does seem to be the fix most needed:1) Amends/Restitution with a 15 second duration and 30 second total reuse/recovery plus increase defensive hate proc to 4 times per minute.or2) Amends/Restitution as a permanent hate siphon taking 11% from a single target.Any way you slice the #s, we lost practially all passive hate while many other classes retain it to an astonshing degree. Clearly, Amends at 41% provoked a backlash and we are going to have to argue, with the help of others, to have that redressed.Piling on active hate to heals and the like that requires power, not being stunned/stifled/charmed/mezzed, can be interrupted, etc. is not a solution to the always on never down never interrupted steady hate provided to other single target tanks.It of course won't show up in easy instances or if paladins are using snap-aggro to paper over the base aggro issues. If you use snap aggro to get through an instance that doesn't require other tanks to use them, what are you going to do for the instances where they need to use them? You will have nothing left. That's where the unbalanced changes will show up and so relegate us to third string.

Pugzilla

01-23-2009, 09:17 PM

I have a question. I just read on test update notes for 22 Jan. that offensive attacks will no longer proc positional hate arts for all fighters. At least that's the way i read the update note. Does that mean that abilities like Holy Ground will no longer proc except on melee attacks? I certainly hope they aren't implementing something like that. This revamp already appears to be enough of a disaster to fighters in general and paladins in particular, especially regarding aoe threat generation.I have my main copied to test-copy but havent played it there yet. There appears to be releatively few players on the server.

Antryg Mistrose

01-27-2009, 10:12 AM

More tweaks on test.<ul><li>Recast on Restitution lowered to 30sec base. Range has come down to 15m</li><li>Clarion line can be cast while stunned or stifled</li><li>Divine Favor no longer stuns/dazes, and gives a 2 hit stoneskin when it fires</li><li>Taunt amounts are up a bit</li><li>Glorious Strike proc in defensive stance has increased proc rate and taunt amount</li></ul>

Anurra

01-27-2009, 01:09 PM

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote>More tweaks on test.<ul><li>Recast on Restitution lowered to 30sec base. Range has come down to 15m</li><li>Clarion line can be cast while stunned or stifled</li><li>Divine Favor no longer stuns/dazes, and gives a 2 hit stoneskin when it fires</li><li>Taunt amounts are up a bit</li><li>Glorious Strike proc in defensive stance has increased proc rate and taunt amount</li></ul></blockquote>Ok those are some nice changes. At least we are making progress.

VALKOR

01-27-2009, 01:53 PM

I would actually go farther and say that they have successfully addressed the major concerns. The 10 second window when Restitution is unavailable is quite manageable. Yes, we have to worry about power, stifle/stun, control effects, etc. but those are things we can learn to work around. It was the 40 second window that was the killer in my opinion (and was going to be even worse on raids); by reducing the reuse to 30 seconds we can fulfill our role as single target tanks. Multiple mobs will be tricky but we have AoEs, group taunts, and the like to help figure it out.The significant improvements to Divine Favor are also something for which to be very thankful. A two proc stoneskin with no health limit comes at the ideal time as your healers are quickly trying to get your health out of the red. It's not as versatile as ToS and frankly it shouldn't be - that's a class defining guardian ability. I haven't had issues with survivability lately, and the change to the Voidbeam armor to give us more mitigation if we get the 4 piece set rather than our already capped CA/Spell is excellent.As someone who readily and volubly argued against the changes that were game-hinderingly detrimental to our class, I feel it is just as important to shout out thanks for fixing them. We have had a lot of issues addressed with this update, and I for one, am very pleased with the changes. I think if you get a chance to try them out on test, or else on live when they are pushed, you'll find that you can do your designated single target tank job very well now, and while we won't be as good as the AoE tanks, we will probably be able to do multi-mobs reasonably well and so continue to be a versatile raid tank choice.<img src="http://www.trustinginfate.com:8080/tif/download/file.php?id=459" width="371" height="313" />P.S. My perspective is that of a raider in a casual guild who earned their mythicals. I fill both the MT and OT role, as well as DPSing for fun every now and then with no tank responsibilities. As such, I can only speak from that perspective but I've tried to look at things without AA, raid gear, etc. (as well as with what I have) and it frankly looks quite good to me.

Prrasha

01-27-2009, 02:54 PM

I'll have to log back in and see what some of the "new taunt numbers" are.With the changes here, like Valkor, I'm mostly happy.Since I'm an instance tank and not a raid tank, I've got two concerns left:1) will we be able to hold aggro in conditions of heavy stifle/stun and required self-healing (i.e. spending most/all un-controlled time casting heals.)2) will we be able to hold AE aggro. We know that the AE tanks can hold ST encounters, they just "use more mana" (which is kinda funny given the paladin's hysterical historical mana efficiency). Can the ST tanks hold AE against a swashie or warlock? If not, the instance tanking game is still broken. Hopefully today's playtest will shine some light on that.

Anurra

01-27-2009, 04:55 PM

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll have to log back in and see what some of the "new taunt numbers" are.With the changes here, like Valkor, I'm mostly happy.Since I'm an instance tank and not a raid tank, I've got two concerns left:1) will we be able to hold aggro in conditions of heavy stifle/stun and required self-healing (i.e. spending most/all un-controlled time casting heals.)2) will we be able to hold AE aggro. We know that the AE tanks can hold ST encounters, they just "use more mana" (which is kinda funny given the paladin's hysterical historical mana efficiency). Can the ST tanks hold AE against a swashie or warlock? If not, the instance tanking game is still broken. Hopefully today's playtest will shine some light on that.</blockquote>I am an instance tank too Prrasha, and overall, I am quite happy on how things are going. I still wished we had some sort of passive hate as in TSO things (as you mentioned in item 1) can get really hairy at times. Though I did respec to get AoTC and it is an AWESOME ability. I will just have to manage my group initially a little better to make sure they don't do anything until I can handle things.For your number 2, oddly enough, I usually group with 2 mythical assassins and a bruiser for DPS classes. So in a sense, being switched to a single tank from an AoE tank does not really impact me as much as others. I just need to hold aggro on the extra mobs in an encounter from the healer(s). I do feel for our raid paladin who OT's. It is going to be rough to say the least.

VALKOR

01-27-2009, 06:34 PM

I mostly MT or OT on our raids and I don't anticipate too much trouble with the fix to Restitution. If there are a lot of adds, it will be more challenging but we have Holy Ground to ensure we keep one, a bunch of AoEs (with one adding threat), reduced cast on the group taunt, and Sigil for real emergencies. And frankly, our job now is to MT or else be the OT ready to pickup the name while an AoE tank handles adds.Once you get Restitution off, whether in a raid or instance, you've got 20 seconds of hate over time which is at that point comparable to passive transfer/proc since you don't need to do anything to keep it running. It'll be interesting to see if memwipe mobs clear Restitution or whether it will still proc every 4 seconds and so generate new hate.Body pulls immediatley followed by stun/stifle will make your life tougher, but the increased proc rate (AAs can help there too) along with Clarion being usable doesn't make us much worse off than other fighters who will be waiting for their transfer/procs to kick in. I think we'll be able to work around it.As for raids, the 5% addition to base heals to every healer in the raid especially helps any healer who is capped, naturally increase crit amounts, and is actually a pretty significant increase when the cumulative effect on 7 or even 8 healers is considered. It also helps other hybrid classes such as a fury who can DPS a good portion of the time but can also heal that much better with a paladin in raid. The Wis increases resists across the board I believe, and the raid-wide mitigation buff for non-fighters is very valuable for them because they are unlikely to have reached diminishing returns for mitigation yet and so benefit from the ~850 when you consider all the slash/crush/pierce AoEs in the game (raids and instances).Obviously, there are a lot of ways to run a raid but having a paladin in the raid gives the raid leader a chance to consider other options. Still working on the new stuff, but I was able to do all of VP before much of the TSO went into play and have been able to do the new TSO stuff as well as our guardian (and actually having the two of us working in tandem has been very useful).

Khuzad

01-28-2009, 01:57 PM

<cite>Araris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>For anybody that isn't intelligent enough to think and keeps grinning like a fool while being screwed, saying we have tons of hate now, you really need to realize that its not about the Amount of hate we are getting, its the Type of hate.Can we hold single target hate? Yes.In little group instances can we hold group hate? Yes.In Raids do we have a position at all? No.There is more to the game than little legendary equipped Paladin's running around doing instances. The entire end game is based around raiding and due to this change, Paladin's no longer have any place in that. We have been relegated to Single Target Tanks but have been given 0 ability's with which to do so.Do you actually think a raid is going to want a Paladin MT over a Guard MT just out of the goodness of their heart? No, they are not. They are going to want the best MT in the game, Guardians, who are the best because of their stoneskin ability's.The OP is right. These changes were done with no forethought at all when it comes to the raiding aspect. It is merely a large nerf and they're throwing garbage like "we gave you a really cool taunt!" at the inexperienced Paladins in order to placate them.</blockquote>I would have to say that I disagree with what this game is based around and therefore disagree with the viability of the Paladin.I have played EQ1 and EQ2 since right around the launch of each. I have been on 1 or 2 raids... dont care for them...I have been in a couple of bigger groups... dont care for that either... a group of 2 to 6 works great for me....I also know a lot of veteran players that feel the same way...With this in mind all classes become more viable.This game has gone through a lot of changes and it will go through a lot more...The HUGE focus on raiding is something that seems to be growing more and more... Maybe this is due to the influx of players from other games where the only thing to really do is raid.EQ2 has a lot to offer all types of players... raiders or non-raiders... casual or hardcore...I am just saying that even if the changes make the Paladin less able to RAID MT... doesnt mean that they are useless...I have played many a Pally over the years and still have a lot of fun with them...Peace