Affects of New Update on SK [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Soefje

01-07-2009, 08:13 PM

From Test Update today:GAMEPLAY <ul ><li>Taunts and detaunts can now critical similar to how melee and spell criticals work.</li><li>Threat output and hate position changes will now be displayed to the chat windows. You can find it under Combat in the Hate Adjustment category.</li><li>Hate gain mods will no longer affect taunt adjustments.</li><li>Area of effect spells and combat arts will no longer spread hate to encounter members when damage is applied. </li></ul> Crusader <ul ><li> Idolic Axe has changed to increase the base amount of the crusaders taunts and gives them an additional chance to critically taunt an enemy.</li></ul>Shadowknight <ul ><li> Enchance: Anguish will now increase the base damage of the combat art appropriately.</li></ul>SPELLSShadowknight <ul><li>The Dark Caress and Unholy Weapon lines have merged into the offensive and defensive stances. </li><li>Defensive stance line will lower damage but increase threat output. </li><li>Offensive stance boosts damage slightly but reduces hate gain. </li><li>Sickening Circle will also increase threat now.</li><li>The Kick line now has a threat component.</li></ul>Couple of observations about these.<ol><li>The way I read this is that AOE will no longer increase hate, except to the mob being targeted. If this is true, it will severly hurt SK. One of the advantages we have as tanks is the AOE damage we can do to pick up adds. Now granted the AOE from other players is not going to the adds, so we will have time to tuant them, etc. Not sure if I like this or not.</li><li>Looks to me like my assumption in #1 is correct b/c of the threat component added to sickening circle. I would like to see and threat added to tap arteries also.</li><li>Can someone explain what they mean by "Hate gain mods will no longer affect taunt adjustments"?</li><li>Rest seems OK to me. I will have to reserve judgement on Dark Caress and Unholy Weapon to see how they have been added.</li></ol>

Masoma

01-07-2009, 10:08 PM

I'm worried too about the loss of hate on the encounter with our AoE's. Very dependent on this happening currently. Downloading testserver update now, I'll have comments after I try the changes out.Woeman 80 SK

Nero

01-07-2009, 10:08 PM

I'm afraid that SK will be nerfed.But until test comes, I'll hold my judgment.By the way, did devs throw away ideas of Single Target tank/AoE tank?I have thought that SK is AoE tank.They will take AoE hate away from us. Then how can SK keep aggro of a lot of encounters of TSO dungeons?

rabid.pooh

01-07-2009, 10:32 PM

I read "AOE will no longer increase hate, except to the mob being targeted" as being that way for all players. Wouldn't make sense for a mage's aoe damage to gain hate on the mobs and yours not to. This looks like a stupification of hate to me. Dropping a group taunt looks like that's all you'll need to do now.Do you really think the SK needs more hate components added to their AOEs? Toesmash is my instanced geared SK and let me tell you, I can keep group hate waaaaaay easier then my fabled out trak/byzolla geared guardian. On Toes it's not really even a challenge unless I have mythical 200 aa wizzy in the group with no hate/dehate, then it's a challenge.Unholy arms getting tied into one stance looks like that could suck the most, grim strike is usually the 2nd or 3rd highest damage on my parse.

Kaarim

01-08-2009, 02:34 AM

They didn't nerf sk's no one really got nerfed....if calling amends removal into a super taunt a nerf then meh w/e other than that no nerfs. AoE hate don't even worry about it...crimson circle has a HUGE aoe taunt tied to it now it does more threat than grave sacrament...so basically we have like 3 aoe taunts.SK department to these changes are fine and haven't hurt us at all, imo been testing these out...and all I can say is Shadowknights just have gotten a lot better.All the fighter should be happy with these changes....A lot of paladins are crying out right now but they'll see it's not bad most of them just aren't use to generating self hate..which is what this change is all about...tanks holding aggro solely on their own with no or little help from other classes......the game is getting more and more based on skill than just "playing the right class".

FinalHolmes

01-08-2009, 10:04 AM

"The Dark Caress and Unholy Weapon lines have merged into the offensive and defensive stances."So I have just wasted my platinum on Depraved Aura (Master 1) and Infernal Caress (Master 1)?Have you thought this through SOE? You do know that Depraved Aura and Infernal Caress are both a Master II choice...What will they be replaced with? Despoiling Mist maybe? or Mana Sieve?

Kaarim

01-08-2009, 12:11 PM

CHIMPNOODLE.

01-08-2009, 05:14 PM

<cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cavius@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>"The Dark Caress and Unholy Weapon lines have merged into the offensive and defensive stances."So I have just wasted my platinum on Depraved Aura (Master 1) and Infernal Caress (Master 1)?Have you thought this through SOE? You do know that Depraved Aura and Infernal Caress are both a Master II choice..What will they be replaced with? Despoiling Mist maybe? or Mana Sieve?</blockquote>They replaced it with M2 Stance Def or Off.</blockquote>That'll do nicely.The other changes look ok. Off-hand, I don't like the merging of the buffs with the stances. End result might be fine..even great, but I just see the lost effort and coin of the masters. When tanking, I assume the lost dammage from unholy will be made up for with the extra hate off kick, or crimson...or seomthing else...i.e. I'm assuming our parse will go down some in defensive, but I haven't looked at the stance changes creally, nor at anything else except what's posted above and on flames so far (pics of pally version and some other discussions). I also assume it will not matter aggro wise on balance though. Evens the field for those that didn't have the masters too I guess..so good for some (or many).Seems like we will still be rockin' for AOE aggro. The crimson threat addition is the "extra" blue aoe each fighter was reported to be getting I suppose...ours has threat...did the other classes get threat component blue AOEs or just dammage? Either way, we will still have strong AOE dammage for our parses and very strong AOE threat.In defensive we'll have our group taunt, caress, sacrament, crimson circle, DM...then factor in AOErs facing the same elimination in their hate across non targettted mobs.. I'm not worried for SK AOE aggro at all...perhaps a bit more worried for zerks and pallys though. I'm guessing something will have to be adjusted a bit more them. Adding one blue aoe taunt and removing their AOE dammage hate generation and hate syphons (in the pally's case) might not balance out. Or maybe thats part of the AOE-Single target tank balancing that's all the rage these days? Pallys are supposed to be shifting more focus to single target, or that's the word on the street? They might get more unique single generators (like the Kick threat addition, which we shared in that case). Zerks might need some tweaking for AOE threat, who knows, we shall see. Looks ok for us though imo.I believe the hate gain mods no longer affecting hate ajustments infers that hate increase/reduction/transfers will not be included in calculations that use hate adjustments (might be aimed to handle the coming taunt crits more than anything...but likely including ability to land and anything that might afftect base level adjustments in theory).I can't think offhand of which mods/transfers affect those directly...+aggression buffs from which class?...%base taunt from...?. From what I've seen in past patch notes, the devs have referred to adjustments as anything affecting the skill/ability (ex. "affected by agression skill adjustments" was used when discussing ability to land Dirges' Magnetic Note, making it more likely to land in that instance, as opposed to when it use to use...). I'd like to see if that (still confusing) interpretation is even halfway on the right track though. If so, doesn't seem to be much in end effect since its across the board (and wasn't a factor before).

Meryddian

01-08-2009, 06:52 PM

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>From Test Update today:SPELLSShadowknight <ul><li>The Dark Caress and Unholy Weapon lines have merged into the offensive and defensive stances. </li></ul></blockquote>My question is: HOW have they been merged into the stances? Are they BOTH on BOTH stances? Or is it DC on one stance and UW on the other, which would completely stink?

Soefje

01-08-2009, 06:55 PM

<blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite>In defensive we'll have our group taunt, caress, sacrament, crimson circle, DM...then factor in AOErs facing the same elimination in their hate across non targettted mobs.. I'm not worried for SK AOE aggro at all...I believe the hate gain mods no longer affecting hate ajustments infers that hate increase/reduction/transfers will not be included in calculations that use hate adjustments (might be aimed to handle the coming taunt crits more than anything...but likely including ability to land and anything that might afftect base level adjustments in theory).</blockquote>I am wondering if DM will still cause hate. Since it is not a "damage" spell.Still not real sure what the hate mods means. I thought it was dealing with the hate transfer spells, but still can figure out the mechanics of these in the new system. So if we have and encouter that has 3 mobs, I target one, we start fighting, if I don't do anything with AOE threat, does that mean when the first mob dies, the next one I target will have zero hate to everyone, even though it has been damage in the fight? Looks to me AOE threat is then kind of useless. Those that have it will have an advantage, in that they can get up the hate meter early as compared to those that don't. Would also mean that the DPS are gonna have to slow down a sec on each new target to allow the tank to get hate. Or am I just not getting it?

AziBam

01-08-2009, 07:24 PM

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looks to me AOE threat is then kind of useless. Those that have it will have an advantage, in that they can get up the hate meter early as compared to those that don't. Would also mean that the DPS are gonna have to slow down a sec on each new target to allow the tank to get hate. Or am I just not getting it?</blockquote>I was initially wondering about that myself given the somewhat unclear description of AE hate and dps. However, we will still need our AE damage and hate tools. This is from Reahov in the Art of War thread on test feedback...Previously when you cast an AOE spell every encounter member you hit would add some hate to every other npc based on how much damage it took, so it would add progressively more hate the more enemies you hit. This was like a penalty for warlocks and other fragile AOE nukers and a bonus for fighters using area attacks. This effect was removed and lot of hategain was added to several fighter area attacks to compensate, so over all you can expect to have an easier time keeping aggro off a warlock.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=30&topic_id=440463" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=440463</a>

CHIMPNOODLE.

01-08-2009, 10:33 PM

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite>In defensive we'll have our group taunt, caress, sacrament, crimson circle, DM...then factor in AOErs facing the same elimination in their hate across non targettted mobs.. I'm not worried for SK AOE aggro at all...I believe the hate gain mods no longer affecting hate ajustments infers that hate increase/reduction/transfers will not be included in calculations that use hate adjustments (might be aimed to handle the coming taunt crits more than anything...but likely including ability to land and anything that might afftect base level adjustments in theory).</blockquote>I am wondering if DM will still cause hate. Since it is not a "damage" spell.Still not real sure what the hate mods means. I thought it was dealing with the hate transfer spells, but still can figure out the mechanics of these in the new system. So if we have and encouter that has 3 mobs, I target one, we start fighting, if I don't do anything with AOE threat, does that mean when the first mob dies, the next one I target will have zero hate to everyone, even though it has been damage in the fight? Looks to me AOE threat is then kind of useless. Those that have it will have an advantage, in that they can get up the hate meter early as compared to those that don't. Would also mean that the DPS are gonna have to slow down a sec on each new target to allow the tank to get hate. Or am I just not getting it?</blockquote>I was guessing they would merge Caress with defensive, and Unholy with offsensive...but I dunno. I'm wondering about item boosts on some gear, and AAs etc that affect those buffs too now though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm guessing DM is not affected by the changes as it is still bascially a group buff, haven't seen anything written that hinted at it being affected anyway. As what is being changed is written, DM doesn't really fit the description. It is not an AOE spell per se, nor a combat art. That would be a nasty surprise, but I'm really not thinking that's on the table. I'm thinking that we will be the ones with the most AOE threat between the tanks (or tops with zerks)...so if there is any AOE slowing going on between switches, there will be less, if any, with SKs than others. Since all the tanks have group taunts at the minimum (and possibly a blue AOE with threat added), all the tanks should be getting a lead on the non targetted ones anyway. Worse case, we have more than enough snap aggro tools to deal with quick switches I would think.There are also still lots of non linked cases, adds, mobs that hang back/miss taunts, pops etc that will see AOE aggro playing a role aside from classic multi mob group encounters.

CHIMPNOODLE.

01-09-2009, 10:05 AM

<cite>Cavius@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>"The Dark Caress and Unholy Weapon lines have merged into the offensive and defensive stances."So I have just wasted my platinum on Depraved Aura (Master 1) and Infernal Caress (Master 1)?Have you thought this through SOE? You do know that Depraved Aura and Infernal Caress are both a Master II choice...What will they be replaced with? Despoiling Mist maybe? or Mana Sieve?</blockquote>Here's something interesting from a Zerker thread..."2. It looks like they're consolidating spells. Several of my spells are Master I, but my stances are Adept III. How will that be resolved? (I'll have to log on to test to find out). Logged onto test, my Stances got upgraded to Master I since the other spells were already Master I but the stances aren't. That removes one concern."Dunno if that's how it will be in live but looks like some will benefit from this, but no one should get "hurt" anyway. We'll see. Some people might end up getting master stances out of it for the lower cost (on my server to date) of the caress or unholy masters (unless you are already mastered in all 4, then yes, you "lose" your investment edge).

Nakash

01-09-2009, 11:54 AM

<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dunno if that's how it will be in live but looks like some will benefit from this, but no one should get "hurt" anyway. We'll see. Some people might end up getting master stances out of it for the lower cost (on my server to date) of the caress or unholy masters (unless you are already mastered in all 4, then yes, you "lose" your investment edge).</blockquote>I am sry, but it will hurt...<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/image_view.vm?imageId=979676">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...?imageId=979676</a>

CHIMPNOODLE.

01-09-2009, 12:20 PM

I was referring to coin lost on the masters.The stances look pretty interesting though actually. They kinda merged both buffs into O and D. I was hoping for that after Melime asked about it above. Going to be a big loss in dammage in Def (heard works out to roughly 30% dec. in practice on autoattacks alone, plus the spell base part, will be substancial....decent hate procc'age though (especially the 100% proc one). Doesn't look that bad to me overall actually. Kinda curious how it will play out with the other additions (hate on kick and crimson etc, taunt crits..). Tanking DPS is going down for sure, but we'll have to see the balance of the hate changes for aggro. Might end up with higher hate than before, so raid DPS goes up. I wouldn't really care then honestly, as long as it doesn't result in across the board raid/group dps slowage (I don't really solo much anymore).

Boli32

01-09-2009, 01:34 PM

Look closer... you also got parry added.

CHIMPNOODLE.

01-09-2009, 02:09 PM

Ya, I'm liking that part lots <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ashdaren

01-09-2009, 03:21 PM

I'm sorry but the drawback is too bad to go defensive.There is no need for such drawbacks and if u compare the good sides of it with the other tank then it is just laugheable.Go test it ;(

CHIMPNOODLE.

01-09-2009, 04:19 PM

Doesn't look like it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> Consensus from test seems promising so far anyway. I'm actually pretty anxious to test it myself. Will hopefully be able to sometime early next week....and holy cow, stay away from the other tank classes forums. Mucho SK envy going on lately across the boards.

Soefje

01-09-2009, 04:51 PM

I tell you the 5% increase in damage in offensive stance could hurt those of us that still solo a lot. The way some of the new mobs hit, giving htem an extra 5% is not good in my mind.I think we might need a 3rd stance, something in between for soloing, or perhaps no stance of solo.

CHIMPNOODLE.

01-09-2009, 05:11 PM

Ya, true.I don't do it much, but I see the stance changes hurting more the less than full groups and pairings (tank-healer combos...or tank-healer-DPS combos).Soloers who like to stay in defensive will suffer too for sure (and even in O like you said), but those groups above will be slower for sure too. Staying in O but not using taunts (with the disease deaggro and Dots on em too)?....or in D with much lower DPS <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />Seems like a common issue all the tank classes are talking about. Quite a few are throwing out a third stance suggestion...or no stance (still worse than before for'em though).I'm just looking at it from a full group or raid situation. I like the parry and hate procs (and new additions to kick and crimson). Will it be enough hate so that the others can at least make up for the lower tank DPS? Hopefully yes. With taunt crits too? Sounds possible. Off-hand it looks like it might for that anyway. I got used to tanking in O and keeping hate with a mix of threat and DPS. Depending on the group makeups, sometimes I felt like I needed to run O to be sure. Being forced into defensive (with the added parry now too) and doing less DPS doesn't worry me *if* aggro is solid enough and the DPSers are able to push it still (hopefully more even? hehe). Did you see the Crusader STR AA base gains some pally posted (was on here or flames...forget)? Was kind of sick (in a good way) actually.I'm more interested than worried overall at this point anyway <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Soefje

01-09-2009, 05:20 PM

Yea, the idolic axe is now adding threat, nice. I really don't think aggro will be an issue, not that it was anyway. The only thing I was have trouble with (I don't have epic yet) was warlock on a tough group, wizzy and brawlers that went all out at the beginning. If all my aggro spells were active, I rarely had trouble.I still solo a lot. Many nights, I have just a short time to play, so I get writs and go kill things, I think my soloing will slow down. The debuffs added a lot to the speed of killing. I don't have a character on test, so haven't been able to test. Not sure the deaggro means much in soloing, so the debuffs will still be there. Just hope the lifetaps will make up for the 5% added damage.I really don't see the reason for the added damage to the offensive stances. Just decrease the mitigation, the skills (slashing/crushing/piercing) and that would be enough.I still think some of our AA's will be tweaked. Unholy weapon and Dark caress were both AA options in the SK line. Not sure how the changes affect these yet.Will have to wait to see.

Soefje

01-09-2009, 05:53 PM

So, as I sit here bored on a Friday afternoon at work, I began to realized that these changes are going to force us to start stance dancing for many of the tougher fights.Example, hit defensive stance, do all you taunts, hit offensive stance, start DPSing, when the taunts come back up, hit defense stance and hit taunts and repeat. We need to have the stance icon in a prominent place to be able to see what we are doing.

Maroger

01-09-2009, 06:31 PM

<cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dunno if that's how it will be in live but looks like some will benefit from this, but no one should get "hurt" anyway. We'll see. Some people might end up getting master stances out of it for the lower cost (on my server to date) of the caress or unholy masters (unless you are already mastered in all 4, then yes, you "lose" your investment edge).</blockquote>I am sry, but it will hurt...<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/image_view.vm?imageId=979676">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...?imageId=979676</a></blockquote>It hurts a lot -- especially if you solo. YOu are much weaker as a soloer if these changes go through

DxPreist1

01-10-2009, 12:55 AM

Aside from the obvious effects of losing cash on the loams I had to raise money for since they never drop from nodes anywhere, a small portion of our self healing and having to toggle stances on the fly, here is my main concern, what is happening with the (what is it now with the shadow page) 3 or so AA selections that benefit these 2 now missing spell lines, will we be seeing a better or altered AA section that affects more than one aspect of our stances, or will the effect be the same and only affect one stance as opposed to our overall viability.After all, 15 points that helps in any stance is severly different that 15 points that only benefits you 1/2 the time. If this is the case we dang well better be getting a free respec for this crap, as it could have easilly been changed with everything else at product launch.

Ashdaren

01-10-2009, 06:14 AM

Look, I copied my char and I tested it on the test server :I will never use the Defensive Stance unless I have to tank in raid where 1 person dps don't make the difference.We lose a lot of buff, but basically it is better without it for it [Removed for Content] us totally and make the whole group slow moving.Effects kind of sucks compared to other def stance anyway, just check other class master I def stance and you will see...Even the proc is not a drain lol, it is a 1.8 heal that we dont crit on like we used to...In defensive stance the damage is hit so severly that no stance easely cop up for the hate lost.And the offensive stance while nice for playing dps in a 2 tank group sucks for pvp or solo as it debuff way too hard even compared to other tank again, we lose 20 def/20 parry where the guardian only lose def... and there is nothing like a spell bonus like stated on the test notes.

Ashdaren

01-10-2009, 06:17 AM

and btw we are the only tanks losing dps on spell/art ! red head

Levatino

01-10-2009, 11:02 AM

defenitly not happy if this goes true, will hurt the solo player a lot.And what happends with the master II choices and the aa's we can spent in the stances?

CHIMPNOODLE.

01-10-2009, 12:40 PM

<cite>Ashdaren wrote:</cite><blockquote>and btw we are the only tanks losing dps on spell/art ! red head</blockquote>All tanks are "supposed" to be taking a comparable hit in overall DPS though (that little extra is to account for the percentage of our dammage from from auto-attk vs spell/ca...in theory hehe).

Dannyl

01-10-2009, 03:53 PM

With the AoE taunts sounds like they are moving a direct taunt affect to several of our AoE attacks, like they did with Graven Sacrament. I think this will help keep us from loosing adds to other ppls AoE DPS when they crits.As to the rest... crap. Was just starting to like being MT for everything in my guild. The merge of the two lines sounds like a bad thing to me but will have to try it out to be sure. I hope they give us some sort of compensation to this like them turning Graven Sac into AoE dmg/taunt.But as for the stances, they just finally fixed the Def Stance with TSO, now they are killing it again by the sounds of it... I hope that idea gets kicked real hard, would prefer to keep Def Stance how it is atm.

Tandy

01-10-2009, 05:06 PM

Just make sure you actually go test them out. Soloability didnt seem hurt to me in the least. I was in reg tier 1 instance void shard gear and basic legendary jewelry and I was slaughtering solo mobs even in Defensive without a problem. Offensive was as fast if not faster than how I do it on live.Hate is so solid....and lets face it everyone knew tank DPS while tanking was gonna take a hit...and it did. But you can do the job of focusing the mobs on you VERY well in defensive stance and still put out some DPS. Anyone who is upset about the hit there needs to just realize tank damage was getting out of hand for a long time.Personally I like the fact the buffs are tailored for the stances, it gives more focus to the job the stance is for to me. If they didnt combine them, you would lose that totally.

01-11-2009, 03:07 AM

Im concerned about how nice our AA will play with the new skills.(Shadowknight Tree) Enhance: Dark Caress boosts hate gain from Dark Caress line of spells, Which will no longer be in the game.(Shadowknight Tree) Enhance: Unholy Arms boosts damage from the Unholy Arms line of spells, Which will no longer be in the game.(Shadows-Crusader Tree) Valor in Battle: Another upgrade to the Unholy Arms line of spells, which will no longer be in the game.(Shadows-Fighter Tree) Consummate Defender and Offensive Prowess: These two abilities could stay exactly the same, but since the stances will no longer be the same what will the effect be?

Tandy

01-11-2009, 12:15 PM

<cite>Gnomegobbler@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Im concerned about how nice our AA will play with the new skills.(Shadowknight Tree) Enhance: Dark Caress boosts hate gain from Dark Caress line of spells, Which will no longer be in the game.(Shadowknight Tree) Enhance: Unholy Arms boosts damage from the Unholy Arms line of spells, Which will no longer be in the game.(Shadows-Crusader Tree) Valor in Battle: Another upgrade to the Unholy Arms line of spells, which will no longer be in the game.(Shadows-Fighter Tree) Consummate Defender and Offensive Prowess: These two abilities could stay exactly the same, but since the stances will no longer be the same what will the effect be?</blockquote>All the AA boosts to the buffs being merged with the stances were changed to increase proc rate or threat generation in the stances. They do similar things to what they do now.

kemlo

01-12-2009, 10:16 AM

what everyone needs to realise i think is that they (the devs) have completely changed how hate is generated with lu51, dps no longer generates the kind of hate it did (the mere changes to how much hate is generated through AoE dmg now means that warlocks really dont need to worry anymore with a zerker/SK in charge) the taunt amounts go from 5-11k threat increase. aggro is not an issue anymore......although i will say the whole single/aoe tank thing is fubbard simply because an aoe tank seems to hold aggro on a single mob as well as many mobs....while the single tank cant really lock down more than maby 3 mobs at a time (tabbing through them all and hitting taunts on em constantly). so there wont really be a dancing thing going on when MT (seeing as most threat spells are on a 9 sec recast now <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)because there just is not any need to hold aggro through dps. (also in offensive stance you hemorrage hate, all threat spells become de-threat and hate positions and you actually get -10 hate gain)the sum total of this is....aggro is not a problem....but the days of tanks (any tanks) outparseing pure dps classes while MT are gone, only thing left is to make peace with the fact you will only dps when not tanking something and move on.p.s. i hate these changes and i liked how things were before!!! (and the change to amends was meh....but they could have just done that and left all the stances etc alone and everyone would probably have been happier than they are now!!)

DxPreist1

01-13-2009, 12:20 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>All the AA boosts to the buffs being merged with the stances were changed to increase proc rate or threat generation in the stances. They do similar things to what they do now.</blockquote>Except before the AA selections had an effect for us no matter the stance we used, now the effect may be lost over half the time. That is a major difference. Going from benefiting you 100% of the time to benefiting you 30% or 50% of the time makes the selection of those AA's questionable. If it did not ask yourself this, would you still put points your melee to up it 21% if that 21% increase was only effective 30% of the time? No of course not, and why not, because it is silly that's why.Face it gaining a 5% increase in proc chance at any time is a good thing, gaining a 5% proc chance when you use a stance that you use only 30% of your time is a waste when the points could be put into AA selections that actually benefit the player at any time. Like I said before, if there was no change to the AA lines and even if there was, they had best be handing out a respec, to not would be an idiot maneuver. And just think, this crap is happening accross 6 classes. Bet you'll see alot less tanks out and about, which is silly considering the number of calls for a tank in open chanels since the shards started flowing.

Maroger

01-13-2009, 07:55 PM

<cite>Meryddian wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>From Test Update today:SPELLSShadowknight<ul><li>The Dark Caress and Unholy Weapon lines have merged into the offensive and defensive stances. </li></ul></blockquote>My question is: HOW have they been merged into the stances? Are they BOTH on BOTH stances? Or is it DC on one stance and UW on the other, which would completely stink?</blockquote>I just copies my SK over for a 2nd time and had both buffs at M1, Def. stance was M1 and Off Stance was Adept III. I got the stances at the same level as they are now. I lost all the benefit of having my buffs at M1 which means SOE stole some money from me. They are not giving you the benefit of M1 on buffs. I got the 2 stances at M1 added to my spell book for Level 72 althought I am only Level 69 - what is going on here.?

Gehemnishthex

01-13-2009, 08:26 PM

I'm saving for an M1 stance, but heard a rumor that the def stance would show up as an M2 choice. any truth to this?

Nero

01-13-2009, 10:41 PM

(1)Paladin has 4 AoE spells.Plus, Paladin has 1 AoE with Crusader AA of STA line.Cast Holy Ground + these AoE = super AoE aggro keep than SK(2)Paladin has Blocking Mastery.But not only SK but also Paladin became to have +Parry with their Defensive stances.Blocking Mastery + Parry on Defensive stance = better survivability than SKBlocking Mastery is very useful when Paladin fight mobs more than yellow name.Then, why did devs give Parry on Defensive stance to Paladin?There is no balance about survivability between SK and Paladin.Reaver?Reaver is really useless because the amount of lifetap is too low.And spell bonus of Reaver will be useless when DPS become not to be important to keep aggro.(Reaver's spell bonus is usefull only for lifetaps. But it is small)

Tandy

01-14-2009, 02:49 AM

<cite>DxPreist1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>All the AA boosts to the buffs being merged with the stances were changed to increase proc rate or threat generation in the stances. They do similar things to what they do now.</blockquote>Except before the AA selections had an effect for us no matter the stance we used, now the effect may be lost over half the time. That is a major difference. Going from benefiting you 100% of the time to benefiting you 30% or 50% of the time makes the selection of those AA's questionable. If it did not ask yourself this, would you still put points your melee to up it 21% if that 21% increase was only effective 30% of the time? No of course not, and why not, because it is silly that's why.Face it gaining a 5% increase in proc chance at any time is a good thing, gaining a 5% proc chance when you use a stance that you use only 30% of your time is a waste when the points could be put into AA selections that actually benefit the player at any time. Like I said before, if there was no change to the AA lines and even if there was, they had best be handing out a respec, to not would be an idiot maneuver. And just think, this crap is happening accross 6 classes. Bet you'll see alot less tanks out and about, which is silly considering the number of calls for a tank in open chanels since the shards started flowing.</blockquote>You might be misinformed then. Both buffs that were added to stances are on BOTH stances in some form. Both stances have a dmg shield, and both stances have a proc buff.The proc buff DID change on defensive it no longer has a dmg portion...it does direct threat with a lifetap....and on offensive it still does dmg and lifetap.The AA changes even reflect this, so there is no way to really say you lose them based on your stance. They maybe diffrent...but they are still there...100% of the time.

CHIMPNOODLE.

01-14-2009, 11:28 AM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>(1)Paladin has 4 AoE spells.Plus, Paladin has 1 AoE with Crusader AA of STA line.Cast Holy Ground + these AoE = super AoE aggro keep than SK(2)Paladin has Blocking Mastery.But not only SK but also Paladin became to have +Parry with their Defensive stances.Blocking Mastery + Parry on Defensive stance = better survivability than SKBlocking Mastery is very useful when Paladin fight mobs more than yellow name.Then, why did devs give Parry on Defensive stance to Paladin?There is no balance about survivability between SK and Paladin.Reaver?Reaver is really useless because the amount of lifetap is too low.And spell bonus of Reaver will be useless when DPS become not to be important to keep aggro.(Reaver's spell bonus is usefull only for lifetaps. But it is small)</blockquote>I find that SKs have the edge personally (and if the Paladin forums are any indication, many of them feel the same way). Off-hand, we will have 4 AOE *threat* abilities (3 blue, 1 green..DM, Circle, Sacrament, plus the standard group taunt) with large threat components attached, plus another 4 Blue Aoe type abilities (Tap, Rays, Contagion, Mists), as well as %proc and 100% proc on being hit abilities that are great for multimobs (unholy & caress merged into both stances, damage shield etc.)...not including the Agi auto-atk multi and hammer ground available to both crusaders. All in all, 13-ish+ abilities playing into AOE fights. Our pasive hate, hate boost AAs (SK and TSO) and all the above are an excellent tool set for AOE aggro.I also think the shield mastery of Pallys is very nice, but overall they were falling behind in surviveability vs the other tanks. I was quite surprised that the +parry was not originally on the pally stance tbh. They have less options to mitigate spike damage (imo the most important factor for surviving). Our revamped syphon (absorbs 1 hit >25%), Bloodletter, Pools of B, SK Furor, Myth click, DA (for both crusaders), emergency HT heal (granted, not super duper...but does help occasionally), our shield efectiveness AAs in second to last and last row TSO AA options, etc..I feel we have the edge there as well.Anyway, just my opnion hehe <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Matia

01-14-2009, 01:46 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DxPreist1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>All the AA boosts to the buffs being merged with the stances were changed to increase proc rate or threat generation in the stances. They do similar things to what they do now.</blockquote>Except before the AA selections had an effect for us no matter the stance we used, now the effect may be lost over half the time. That is a major difference. Going from benefiting you 100% of the time to benefiting you 30% or 50% of the time makes the selection of those AA's questionable. If it did not ask yourself this, would you still put points your melee to up it 21% if that 21% increase was only effective 30% of the time? No of course not, and why not, because it is silly that's why.Face it gaining a 5% increase in proc chance at any time is a good thing, gaining a 5% proc chance when you use a stance that you use only 30% of your time is a waste when the points could be put into AA selections that actually benefit the player at any time. Like I said before, if there was no change to the AA lines and even if there was, they had best be handing out a respec, to not would be an idiot maneuver. And just think, this crap is happening accross 6 classes. Bet you'll see alot less tanks out and about, which is silly considering the number of calls for a tank in open chanels since the shards started flowing.</blockquote>You might be misinformed then. Both buffs that were added to stances are on BOTH stances in some form. Both stances have a dmg shield, and both stances have a proc buff.The proc buff DID change on defensive it no longer has a dmg portion...it does direct threat with a lifetap....and on offensive it still does dmg and lifetap.The AA changes even reflect this, so there is no way to really say you lose them based on your stance. They maybe diffrent...but they are still there...100% of the time.</blockquote>Bolded so the part I am referring to would be obvious.This is technically incorrect. Previously they would be up (if you cast/used them obviously) 100% of the time.Now they are only up if you are in a stance. And that is if grant a changed/different effect as "being up".And before someone responds that everyone will/should be in one stance or the other all the time, if that were the case then we wouldn't have a choice. We would automatically be put into a stance.A buff should never be dependant on something like this. If you think it should, then consider the potential future implications.It could be decided later on that it only makes sense for wards to give their benefits when the subject is not being aggressive. It could be decided that damage buffs should never apply when someone is not being "aggressive enough". It could be decided that any healing bonuses from a buff should not apply if the healer has done damage lately.I'm not saying this necessarily will happen as stated, but the devs have already said that they are likely to "merge" and "alter" the buffs and abilities for other classes after the finish the fighter ones. And some of the other classes have already had stances of various types introduced as AA's or through other methods.

Nimbrithil

01-14-2009, 02:32 PM

How do i get copied over to test server?

gatrm

01-14-2009, 03:59 PM

<cite>Nimbrithil wrote:</cite><blockquote>How do i get copied over to test server?</blockquote>Log into the character you want copied over and type /testcopy add. Not sure how long it takes, but it should be copied over the next day.

Nero

01-14-2009, 04:51 PM

<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>(1)Paladin has 4 AoE spells.Plus, Paladin has 1 AoE with Crusader AA of STA line.Cast Holy Ground + these AoE = super AoE aggro keep than SK(2)Paladin has Blocking Mastery.But not only SK but also Paladin became to have +Parry with their Defensive stances.Blocking Mastery + Parry on Defensive stance = better survivability than SKBlocking Mastery is very useful when Paladin fight mobs more than yellow name.Then, why did devs give Parry on Defensive stance to Paladin?There is no balance about survivability between SK and Paladin.Reaver?Reaver is really useless because the amount of lifetap is too low.And spell bonus of Reaver will be useless when DPS become not to be important to keep aggro.(Reaver's spell bonus is usefull only for lifetaps. But it is small)</blockquote>I find that SKs have the edge personally (and if the Paladin forums are any indication, many of them feel the same way). Off-hand, we will have 4 AOE *threat* abilities (3 blue, 1 green..DM, Circle, Sacrament, plus the standard group taunt) with large threat components attached, plus another 4 Blue Aoe type abilities (Tap, Rays, Contagion, Mists), as well as %proc and 100% proc on being hit abilities that are great for multimobs (unholy & caress merged into both stances, damage shield etc.)...not including the Agi auto-atk multi and hammer ground available to both crusaders. All in all, 13-ish+ abilities playing into AOE fights. Our pasive hate, hate boost AAs (SK and TSO) and all the above are an excellent tool set for AOE aggro.I also think the shield mastery of Pallys is very nice, but overall they were falling behind in surviveability vs the other tanks. I was quite surprised that the +parry was not originally on the pally stance tbh. They have less options to mitigate spike damage (imo the most important factor for surviving). Our revamped syphon (absorbs 1 hit >25%), Bloodletter, Pools of B, SK Furor, Myth click, DA (for both crusaders), emergency HT heal (granted, not super duper...but does help occasionally), our shield efectiveness AAs in second to last and last row TSO AA options, etc..I feel we have the edge there as well.Anyway, just my opnion hehe <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>After I read your post, I changed my opinion.As you said, SK is a great AoE tank.And I have forgotten shadow AA's like SK furor, shield effectiveness and so on.It seems that I had been jealous of Paladin.I feel ashamed it.Thank you for your kind informing me.

AziBam

01-14-2009, 06:08 PM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>(1)Paladin has 4 AoE spells.Plus, Paladin has 1 AoE with Crusader AA of STA line.Cast Holy Ground + these AoE = super AoE aggro keep than SK(2)Paladin has Blocking Mastery.But not only SK but also Paladin became to have +Parry with their Defensive stances.Blocking Mastery + Parry on Defensive stance = better survivability than SKBlocking Mastery is very useful when Paladin fight mobs more than yellow name.Then, why did devs give Parry on Defensive stance to Paladin?There is no balance about survivability between SK and Paladin.Reaver?Reaver is really useless because the amount of lifetap is too low.And spell bonus of Reaver will be useless when DPS become not to be important to keep aggro.(Reaver's spell bonus is usefull only for lifetaps. But it is small)</blockquote>I find that SKs have the edge personally (and if the Paladin forums are any indication, many of them feel the same way). Off-hand, we will have 4 AOE *threat* abilities (3 blue, 1 green..DM, Circle, Sacrament, plus the standard group taunt) with large threat components attached, plus another 4 Blue Aoe type abilities (Tap, Rays, Contagion, Mists), as well as %proc and 100% proc on being hit abilities that are great for multimobs (unholy & caress merged into both stances, damage shield etc.)...not including the Agi auto-atk multi and hammer ground available to both crusaders. All in all, 13-ish+ abilities playing into AOE fights. Our pasive hate, hate boost AAs (SK and TSO) and all the above are an excellent tool set for AOE aggro.I also think the shield mastery of Pallys is very nice, but overall they were falling behind in surviveability vs the other tanks. I was quite surprised that the +parry was not originally on the pally stance tbh. They have less options to mitigate spike damage (imo the most important factor for surviving). Our revamped syphon (absorbs 1 hit >25%), Bloodletter, Pools of B, SK Furor, Myth click, DA (for both crusaders), emergency HT heal (granted, not super duper...but does help occasionally), our shield efectiveness AAs in second to last and last row TSO AA options, etc..I feel we have the edge there as well.Anyway, just my opnion hehe <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>After I read your post, I changed my opinion.As you said, SK is a great AoE tank.And I have forgotten shadow AA's like SK furor, shield effectiveness and so on.It seems that I had been jealous of Paladin.I feel ashamed it.Thank you for your kind informing me.</blockquote>Prior to the SK revamp it would have been very hard to reasonably argue that Paladins didn't have a significantly better hand for tanking. Better avoidance, more health, vastly better aggro tools and about equal dps. The only area that we really were notably ahead was solo. After the revamp I thought things were pretty equal. They still had better hate tools and more health but we had seen big leaps in dps and aggro.With the upcoming revamp it's hard to say. I have a feeling that all the tanks will have mobs glued to them in Defensive stance although paladins have a legitimate complalint right now in that they don't have a passive hate proc (when they take damage) like most of the rest of the tanks. Their other legit complaint was that they didn't have parry on their Def stance like the other tanks but that has been corrected now.Overall, I think SKs will be just fine after the changes relative to the other fighters. I think it will be nice to have a real chance of holding the mobs attention while in DEF stance. As things stand now, 4/6 of the fighters were likely to avoid DEF stance as much as possible because we couldn't hold hate well unless we could do the dps while in offensive stance. Only paladins (amends) and Guards (+melee skills buff) really had the ability to routinely use DEF stance without gimping themselves.

Tandy

01-15-2009, 01:53 AM

<cite>Matia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DxPreist1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>All the AA boosts to the buffs being merged with the stances were changed to increase proc rate or threat generation in the stances. They do similar things to what they do now.</blockquote>Except before the AA selections had an effect for us no matter the stance we used, now the effect may be lost over half the time. That is a major difference. Going from benefiting you 100% of the time to benefiting you 30% or 50% of the time makes the selection of those AA's questionable. If it did not ask yourself this, would you still put points your melee to up it 21% if that 21% increase was only effective 30% of the time? No of course not, and why not, because it is silly that's why.Face it gaining a 5% increase in proc chance at any time is a good thing, gaining a 5% proc chance when you use a stance that you use only 30% of your time is a waste when the points could be put into AA selections that actually benefit the player at any time. Like I said before, if there was no change to the AA lines and even if there was, they had best be handing out a respec, to not would be an idiot maneuver. And just think, this crap is happening accross 6 classes. Bet you'll see alot less tanks out and about, which is silly considering the number of calls for a tank in open chanels since the shards started flowing.</blockquote>You might be misinformed then. Both buffs that were added to stances are on BOTH stances in some form. Both stances have a dmg shield, and both stances have a proc buff.The proc buff DID change on defensive it no longer has a dmg portion...it does direct threat with a lifetap....and on offensive it still does dmg and lifetap.The AA changes even reflect this, so there is no way to really say you lose them based on your stance. They maybe diffrent...but they are still there...100% of the time.</blockquote>Bolded so the part I am referring to would be obvious.This is technically incorrect. Previously they would be up (if you cast/used them obviously) 100% of the time.Now they are only up if you are in a stance. And that is if grant a changed/different effect as "being up".And before someone responds that everyone will/should be in one stance or the other all the time, if that were the case then we wouldn't have a choice. We would automatically be put into a stance.A buff should never be dependant on something like this. If you think it should, then consider the potential future implications.It could be decided later on that it only makes sense for wards to give their benefits when the subject is not being aggressive. It could be decided that damage buffs should never apply when someone is not being "aggressive enough". It could be decided that any healing bonuses from a buff should not apply if the healer has done damage lately.I'm not saying this necessarily will happen as stated, but the devs have already said that they are likely to "merge" and "alter" the buffs and abilities for other classes after the finish the fighter ones. And some of the other classes have already had stances of various types introduced as AA's or through other methods.</blockquote>The stances give so many other effects and buffs that if your only concern is a proc buff and a dmg shield without a stance then you might need to spend some time going over the stances.Not having one up is such a huge disadvantage that having those 2 buffs NOT tied to them is still pathetic and just not worthwhile.Defensive for tanking/offtanking...offensive for everything else. There isnt a really good reason to NOT be in one of them. EVER. The complaints about those 2 buffs is just something rationally I cant understand. Sorry.Maybe they SHOULD force a stance on fighters then, just to quiet the bellyaching from people.

Matia

01-15-2009, 11:54 AM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The stances give so many other effects and buffs that if your only concern is a proc buff and a dmg shield without a stance then you might need to spend some time going over the stances.Not having one up is such a huge disadvantage that having those 2 buffs NOT tied to them is still pathetic and just not worthwhile.Defensive for tanking/offtanking...offensive for everything else. There isnt a really good reason to NOT be in one of them. EVER. The complaints about those 2 buffs is just something rationally I cant understand. Sorry.Maybe they SHOULD force a stance on fighters then, just to quiet the bellyaching from people.</blockquote>Clipped down bec ause of the cascading "quotes". <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Now, your statement is that not having one up is a "huge" disadvantage and that there is no reason to not be in one.How so?And as for how you just rationally can't understand about the complaints, well.. if you can't see how some people want choices left to them and not taken away and dictated or forced by people who seem to have little care for them.. then that's something others may not rationally be able to understand.

Tandy

01-15-2009, 12:21 PM

<cite>Matia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The stances give so many other effects and buffs that if your only concern is a proc buff and a dmg shield without a stance then you might need to spend some time going over the stances.Not having one up is such a huge disadvantage that having those 2 buffs NOT tied to them is still pathetic and just not worthwhile.Defensive for tanking/offtanking...offensive for everything else. There isnt a really good reason to NOT be in one of them. EVER. The complaints about those 2 buffs is just something rationally I cant understand. Sorry.Maybe they SHOULD force a stance on fighters then, just to quiet the bellyaching from people.</blockquote>Clipped down bec ause of the cascading "quotes". <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Now, your statement is that not having one up is a "huge" disadvantage and that there is no reason to not be in one.How so?And as for how you just rationally can't understand about the complaints, well.. if you can't see how some people want choices left to them and not taken away and dictated or forced by people who seem to have little care for them.. then that's something others may not rationally be able to understand.</blockquote>If your tanking a mob...how is 15% more mitigation, better hate generation, and the assorted things on the defensive stance not a disadvantage to have.Conversely is your on the offensive stance, having the loss of intelligence and the stats plus the other buff is a huge disadvantage.If you HAD the buffs stanceless, you would be losing either the mitigation and hate bonuses, or the intelligence and melee buffs....while retaining a proc that hits for way less damage than it should, and a measly damage shield.Can you please explain to me why that proc buff and the dmg shield is so awesome uber l33t to have without stances that its SO VITALLY IMPORTANT IT WILL BREAK THE CLASS OMG!!!11!!1cause I really wanna know. honestly.* as for the choice argument....untill such a time as someone can tell me when they chose on live right now to NOT use the buffs, I will keep not understanding it. If there is no time you DONT have them up, and no time you dont have a stance up, how is the choice gone? Again if you can tell me somehow that it worked better to not have something up, then I can understand it.

AziBam

01-15-2009, 12:59 PM

Xaren, for the most part I like the new stances. When tanking I'll have great aggro and DEF together. Just what a tank needs. When dps I'll do more dps. Yay. The main problem I see is small groups or duo.For example. Your sig lists your main (presumably) as a defiler. Azian and Xaren go decide to duo some content. Hrm, what stance do I choose. Def means I can hold hate all day long barely trying in that setup but I don't generate a heck of a lot of damage meaning the two of us manage to bore the mobs to death. (I know you may find this shocking to hear but Defilers aren't generally viewed as the best dps healer class) <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Or, I use offensive stance. Ok, now I can't use any of the abilities I have that contain taunts as they will detaunt me and I actually probably would lose aggro to your defiler. Scary. Or, I can go stanceless. My taunts work as taunts. I'll hold hate. I'll do OK dps but lose out on all the benefits of the new Off stance. Plus, since the buffs are merged into that new stance I lose out on the benefits of the buffs from what I currently have now on live. Forcing a stance on all players would be bad.

Matia

01-15-2009, 01:02 PM

To some people, the loss of a good sized chunk of damage is a huge disadvantage.To some, the increased amount of damage taken is a huge disadvantage.If an individual decides on their own that taking more damage is not outweighed by the increased dps, or if they decide the increased defense is not worth the loss of damage and increased time to go through an encounter, then that is their choice.Much like you have chosen to decide that only these two stances are worth bothering with, others might decide otherwise.In your opinion there is no reason not to be in them. Fine, no problem. But in other people's opinions they might not want to be in them.If the loss of the "huge benefits", as you put it, of these stances results already from not being in the stance, why compound that by also taking away a buff or set of buffs that they already had?That would be no different than someone deciding that those classes with illusion forms will always be in them anyway, so some of their totally unrelated abilities will now be tied to those illusions. Guess what.. even if the illusion forms offer benefits, some people might decide they have their own reasons not to be in them.Just because one individual or group decides "xxx" is the only way things should be done, that doesn't mean that it is right or proper that others who disagree be forced into that same choice. Especially if that choice does not affect the rest.These buffs could just be left separate and simply flagged to work differently if in a given stance. You would still get the choice you prefer, and those individuals who don't like the folding would get the way they prefer.*corrected a spelling oops*

Kaarim

01-15-2009, 01:02 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>cause I really wanna know. honestly.* as for the choice argument....untill such a time as someone can tell me when they chose on live right now to NOT use the buffs, I will keep not understanding it. If there is no time you DONT have them up, and no time you dont have a stance up, how is the choice gone? Again if you can tell me somehow that it worked better to not have something up, then I can understand it.</blockquote>My friend I think it's simply just most people:A) Don't know how to tank meaning....how to hold aggroB) Don't understand the new system and can't comprehened how effectively useful this new change it to any tank that is TANKING.C) Simply just down right don't know how to play the class and use their skill/abilities to their full advantage.This change is amazing if you are Tanking or DPSing in either a group and ESPECIALLY in raid. Here I can simplify it for those who do not understand it:Defensive=Tank mode, hold hate like a champ, take hits like a champ, can wear gear like a warrior and not worry about aggro, DPS sucks so what you are holding hate that's your job holding and taking a hit GG you are a tank now.Offensive= DPS mode, DPS like a champ, dehate so you never will pull aggro off the MT or OT, you are strict DPS and have no reason to Tank anything, your role is to damage and not take a hit. GG you are a DPS now.Easy? Get it? lolSry for the sarcasm just I cannot believe ppl think this change is whack...specially Paladins lol..but that's another story...this feels like the SK pet forum changing into a DPS aoe Hate taunt position LOL....look at the bigger picture people.=/ ..You benefit from this!

SnowKnight

01-17-2009, 11:13 PM

Seems like this will be great if you group... but suck when you solo. And when I say solo I dont mean solo mobs, I mean heroic ^^^'s.

SnowKnight

01-17-2009, 11:13 PM

Well tested a bit. In defensive we lose 25% of our auto attack damage (from stance) and about 15% (10% from stance, 5% from unholy arms proccage) from spells vs how it is now. The offensive stance is kind of meh to be honest. It has even more drawbacks than before meaning defensive is still the best way to solo heroic mobs or even just tough solo mobs.Also the Innoruks caress spell on the defensive has a massive taunt proc etc thats all well and good, but offensive has but a 100 dmg proc (which might I add the defensive stance has also, in addition the the taunt proc). Perhaps adding a small lifetap and bumping up the dmg slightly on the offensive stance version would make it better (say 50 healed per hit, 150dmg done to mob). Also remove the parry penalty, but keep the defense penalty. Alternatively keep both the parry and defense penaltys, but perhaps add a spell dmg multiplier, say 5 - 10% keeping in line with the defensive stance drawbacks.The hate numbers on taunts are a lot bigger, and we have more. This is in my overall opinion, sonys way of nerfing fighter dps when tanking while throwing us a bone to keep us happy.These are a summary of opinions thus far. More testing will be done soon.Our offensive stance need to feel offensive, not meh, if we are going to be forced to use it to dps or solo at any kind of decent speed. At the moment its like our current defensive stance but we hit, and get hit more often.Defensive stance is in my opinion fine for what it is intended for. IE tanking in groups. Remember people - everyone solos at some point. The offensive stance needs to be tailored for solo, as well as group play.

DxPreist1

01-18-2009, 12:39 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you please explain to me why that proc buff and the dmg shield is so awesome uber l33t to have without stances that its SO VITALLY IMPORTANT IT WILL BREAK THE CLASS OMG!!!11!!1cause I really wanna know. honestly.* as for the choice argument....untill such a time as someone can tell me when they chose on live right now to NOT use the buffs, I will keep not understanding it. If there is no time you DONT have them up, and no time you dont have a stance up, how is the choice gone? Again if you can tell me somehow that it worked better to not have something up, then I can understand it.</blockquote>Well as any rogue or figter not totally new to the game could tell you, you have a reduction in both stances. In Defensive you gain defense but lose in other areas, like your slashing for instance, While in Offensive you gain, oh, I dont know say slashing but lose defense.See now this is where paying attention and not just mashing spells and CA's comes in handy. You notice while tanking one day that the tougher mobs you fight in defensive, despite the hate gain potential still get pulled away. In an effort to figure out why you decide to snap out of your sheep mentality and watch the fight instead of the just reuse times on your hotbar and notice your missing the mob 85% of the time with your CA's and auto attacks. That explains it, all the lost damage is cousing you to have far less agro than you would. You notify the defiler to really watch the wards, cuz in order to beat the mob your gonna have to gain more aggro through damage by hitting it so it does not break hold and wipe the group, and that means tanking in offensive.Half way through you lose aggro again, but you planned for it knowing there would be less inherent aggro gain in offensive, and we smart enough to wait for rescue to be up, you pop it and it starts to go a bit better. But blast those newbie assassins! the one you picked up for dps, much like you wasn't paying attantion and popped decap right after! No prob, your new AA rescue CA comes in handy, but alas, so close to killing the mob your redused defense catches up with you and you eat it. Your healers dier in intermixed spurts with the new assassin. Blast that lessened defense!Do you?:A: Whine at the assassin, give up, go home, craft more and wait for the next expansion so you can actually beat the mob?orB: Grow a brain and shut off stances so you have no drain on your ability to hit or survive, but maintain all your procs?See we can be needlessly hostile about our argument too. Thing is, no, in full raid dress this wont be a problem much, for casual players in a couple pieces of MC gear and mostly treasured the ability adjustments can make a serious difference. Don't beleive that, then maybe all you uber "leet" peeps need to reroll and not twik to beat all hello. Play as if your new to the game and see what it's like. As for the, well they just don't know how to tank argument....... really? Well then if your so good at it you don't need this benefit or simplification? So why argue for it? Seriously? Yeah thats what I thought.Now don't get me wrong, I am all for a revamp of the stances to make them obviously beneficial to what they are intended, I would not dream of saying otherwise. Heck, even merging the totally gimped dmg sheild would be ok by me but our atk proc is useful is so many scenarios it really isn't funny. And seriously, saying it is to simplify the system is silly since my full hotbar set on any fighter I have is smaller than every other class I play already. And I can see where this is gonna go next too, "well doze skill adjustments are moot and dont matter anyway if your uber tank anyway..." but if that were really the case we would all be fine with having them just proc hate or damage and have it be that simple wouldn't we, and there certainly would be no need for an AA dedicated to them.But I really do love the oversimplifications that go on on this board as if one playstyle was the one everyone should use.

AziBam

01-18-2009, 09:41 PM

There are some varied opinions here. I don't see aggro being a problem at all for us in DEF stance with the threat numbers we have on test. DPS will be down but hate will be up. I just don't see that as being an issue at all. Solo in offensive MIGHT be a bit weaker. Duo or small groups will be hurt where tank dps was important to the overall success.I'd also argue that the casual player is who will see the most benefit from this over the raid equipped. The raiders already had gear that would allow them without much difficulty at all to stay in offensive while tanking as things are now. A MC equipped fighter just took so much more damage that they could be pigeon-holed into either needing DEF stance to survive or be more likely to die but have a better chance at controlling aggro in OFF stance. Now we can use the stronger stance for tanking and have stronger hate as well. That part is just win win. An instance tank will just go in DEF and stay that way and both have a better chance of surviving AND keeping aggro. That really just makes sense in terms of what the stances were intended for. The new stance changes will make life interesting (challenging) for raid OTs who may need to dance around between stances as needed to quickly gain hate when the encounter demands it.As others have noted. Taunt values are WAY up on test. Our threat reactive proc is great in DEF plus we have the new tools from our recent revamp (most of which are also going proportionally up in threat value.)

Uncaged

01-19-2009, 01:20 AM

<cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>cause I really wanna know. honestly.* as for the choice argument....untill such a time as someone can tell me when they chose on live right now to NOT use the buffs, I will keep not understanding it. If there is no time you DONT have them up, and no time you dont have a stance up, how is the choice gone? Again if you can tell me somehow that it worked better to not have something up, then I can understand it.</blockquote>My friend I think it's simply just most people:A) Don't know how to tank meaning....how to hold aggroB) Don't understand the new system and can't comprehened how effectively useful this new change it to any tank that is TANKING.C) Simply just down right don't know how to play the class and use their skill/abilities to their full advantage.This change is amazing if you are Tanking or DPSing in either a group and ESPECIALLY in raid. Here I can simplify it for those who do not understand it:Defensive=Tank mode, hold hate like a champ, take hits like a champ, can wear gear like a warrior and not worry about aggro, DPS sucks so what you are holding hate that's your job holding and taking a hit GG you are a tank now.Offensive= DPS mode, DPS like a champ, dehate so you never will pull aggro off the MT or OT, you are strict DPS and have no reason to Tank anything, your role is to damage and not take a hit. GG you are a DPS now.Easy? Get it? lolSry for the sarcasm just I cannot believe ppl think this change is whack...specially Paladins lol..but that's another story...this feels like the SK pet forum changing into a DPS aoe Hate taunt position LOL....look at the bigger picture people.=/ ..You benefit from this!</blockquote>I fail to see how you do not see this as the Nerf that it is. As I am a avid soloer 74 SK , I run with Def stance up all the time. I have all my damage proc.'s currently and have AA spent to offset the slash,pierce, crush penalties. So to recap for you , I currently have all DPS procs, the 15% better Mit, and no penalty because I have chosen to spend my AA on battle leadership to increase slash, pierce, crush. Also, I look for gear that adds +slash.So, explain to me exactly how this does not constitute a MAJOR nerf to me and my playstyle again?

AziBam

01-19-2009, 10:49 AM

Based upon what you described as your playstyle then yes it would be a nerf. You don't need threat you need damage. I would guess most of us don't think of solo and DEF stance in the same sentence too often. I know I certainly don't. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kaarim

01-19-2009, 12:26 PM

<cite>Uncaged wrote:</cite><blockquote>I fail to see how you do not see this as the Nerf that it is. As I am a avid soloer 74 SK , I run with Def stance up all the time. I have all my damage proc.'s currently and have AA spent to offset the slash,pierce, crush penalties. So to recap for you , I currently have all DPS procs, the 15% better Mit, and no penalty because I have chosen to spend my AA on battle leadership to increase slash, pierce, crush. Also, I look for gear that adds +slash.So, explain to me exactly how this does not constitute a MAJOR nerf to me and my playstyle again?</blockquote>I solo a lot too...I mostly solo during the day and by night I'm raiding. I tested this out on test for solo and raid purposes...you take in more damage when you are in offensive yes but this time we can dish out a bit more dmg as well. Defensive stance you can basically solo anything now...sure you won't be able to hardcore dps to hell on whatever you solo but you can do much greater challenges than before. The change is bitter sweet...it's not perfect they have the right idea though and I bet in later updates will tweak it. As for a hardcore only solo player it can be a disadvantage ya but if you think about the bigger picture...you can solo things you were unable to solo before....at least I did when I was on test. Its not appealing to all, I can see why ppl may call it a nerf for instances or solo...but the way I see it...I can do more and take more now...I can pull greater number of mobs, I can solo take on greater number of mobs...dmg isn't as high as before...but I can survive easily and just burn em down. We are still one of the two strongest offensive tanks even in the def stance. As a soloer and raider..I personally have no problem with this..I tested it out in both situations on test and I can see the bigger picture of how this will advance my playstyle in both raiding and solo play.*edit* I just realized you solo in Def stance...since you run in that setup...........you won't be losing anything lol....did you know that unholy arms in Def stance will proc on ANY attack you do...let it be auto attack, or spell attack...so..just something to think about as a solo player....its just godly.

Nero

01-19-2009, 11:21 PM

How many snap aggro plate fighters have.Guardian: Rescue, Reinforcement, Sentry Watch, Sneering Asault, Cry of the WarriorBerserker: Rescue, Sneering Asault, Cry of the Warrior, Jeering Onslaught, Insolence(with Mythical)Paladin: Rescue, Holy Ground, Sneering AsaultShadow Knight: Rescue, Grave Sacrament, Sneering AsaultCrusaders have less snap aggro than Warriors.But the explanation of Grave Sacrament is the following."When target takes any damage this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker.Increases threat priority of target by 1 position"When you takes damage, you are already in hate top.So, though I don't say that snap aggro of this spell is nonsense, Grave Sacrament doesn't work as snap aggro at the time of the crisis.Therefore, it can be said that SK has least snap aggro as emergency response, imo.And so, I want to suggest.Death March is very useful spell to gain hate/threat at least before DoF or KoS.But hate gain of Death March seems to be a little bit small or not scaled after RoK.With that, I want to suggest that Malevolent Tormenting, a AA of shadow, is changed to an enhancement of Death March.Malevolent Tormenting should increases hate gain of Death March to a large extent.But it doesn't add snap aggro to Death March.Instead of not adding snap aggro, Malevolent Tormenting should change Death March to a raid buff and increase the duration to a little bit longer.Yes, SK can use Feign Death instead of snap aggro.But other plate fighters have similar utility spells, too. For example, Immobility(Guardian), Sentinel Sphere(Guardian), Sigil of Heroism(Paladin) and so on.Leastways, SK needs more emergency responses at the time of the crisis like snap aggro or my above suggestion, imo.

Kaarim

01-20-2009, 12:45 AM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>How many snap aggro plate fighters have.Guardian: Rescue, Reinforcement, Sentry Watch, Sneering Asault, Cry of the WarriorBerserker: Rescue, Sneering Asault, Cry of the Warrior, Jeering Onslaught, Insolence(with Mythical)Paladin: Rescue, Holy Ground, Sneering AsaultShadow Knight: Rescue, Grave Sacrament, Sneering AsaultCrusaders have less snap aggro than Warriors.But the explanation of Grave Sacrament is the following."When target takes any damage this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker.Increases threat priority of target by 1 position"When you takes damage, you are already in hate top.So, though I don't say that snap aggro of this spell is nonsense, Grave Sacrament doesn't work as snap aggro at the time of the crisis.Therefore, it can be said that SK has least snap aggro as emergency response, imo.</blockquote>Hm our snaps aren't too bad..if you have your mythical..the clicky is a snap aggro tool, sure you have rescue, death march...you could get sneering assault but personally I don't have it...grave sacrament is basically the shadowknights version of a weak reinforcement...same with shadowknights furor. So that's 6 out of possibly 4 snaps to use at your disposal.Grave sacrament is a beautiful ability...you might be misunderstanding what it does the buff "Sacrifice" when the target takes any damage has a 33% chance to increase your threat position by 1 correct? Reading carefully and looking where "Sacrifice" is...it's not on you the SK it's on the mob...think in a raid a Mob getting hit from all sorts of incoming damage what ever dmg that mob is getting hit will have a 33% chance of kicking ur position up by 1...it's very similar yet different to reinforcement...general idea. I usually hit it after I am rezzed from a death so I ride right back up the hate ladder while I'm rebuffing. It's an awesome snap aggro tool specially if you combine it with rescue, the duration I believe is 30s..something like that..and it's an aoe effect as well. Shadowknights furor works just like reinforcement except it's x amount of hate not x amount of threat position. IMO we may have the least amount of snap aggro..sure...but is it really needed for a shadowknight? Can still get the job done with the tools given to us...if anything I know some SK's complain about having too much hate lol.But...with the new changes...I don't think having snap aggro will matter much...fighters get a serious hate boost...any noobie tank can bash out taunts and the new hate CA's and hold aggro like a champ...really kills the skill level specially for crusaders..<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not much of a challenge or fun to try to hold aggro.. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> this is the only issue I have with the change...killing out aggro tanking skills for easy mode.

Nero

01-20-2009, 02:14 AM

<cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>How many snap aggro plate fighters have.Guardian: Rescue, Reinforcement, Sentry Watch, Sneering Asault, Cry of the WarriorBerserker: Rescue, Sneering Asault, Cry of the Warrior, Jeering Onslaught, Insolence(with Mythical)Paladin: Rescue, Holy Ground, Sneering AsaultShadow Knight: Rescue, Grave Sacrament, Sneering AsaultCrusaders have less snap aggro than Warriors.But the explanation of Grave Sacrament is the following."When target takes any damage this spell has a 33% chance to cast Sacrifice on target's attacker.Increases threat priority of target by 1 position"When you takes damage, you are already in hate top.So, though I don't say that snap aggro of this spell is nonsense, Grave Sacrament doesn't work as snap aggro at the time of the crisis.Therefore, it can be said that SK has least snap aggro as emergency response, imo.</blockquote>Hm our snaps aren't too bad..if you have your mythical..the clicky is a snap aggro tool, sure you have rescue, death march...you could get sneering assault but personally I don't have it...grave sacrament is basically the shadowknights version of a weak reinforcement...same with shadowknights furor. So that's 6 out of possibly 4 snaps to use at your disposal.Grave sacrament is a beautiful ability...you might be misunderstanding what it does the buff "Sacrifice" when the target takes any damage has a 33% chance to increase your threat position by 1 correct? Reading carefully and looking where "Sacrifice" is...it's not on you the SK it's on the mob...think in a raid a Mob getting hit from all sorts of incoming damage what ever dmg that mob is getting hit will have a 33% chance of kicking ur position up by 1...it's very similar yet different to reinforcement...general idea. I usually hit it after I am rezzed from a death so I ride right back up the hate ladder while I'm rebuffing. It's an awesome snap aggro tool specially if you combine it with rescue, the duration I believe is 30s..something like that..and it's an aoe effect as well. Shadowknights furor works just like reinforcement except it's x amount of hate not x amount of threat position. IMO we may have the least amount of snap aggro..sure...but is it really needed for a shadowknight? Can still get the job done with the tools given to us...if anything I know some SK's complain about having too much hate lol.But...with the new changes...I don't think having snap aggro will matter much...fighters get a serious hate boost...any noobie tank can bash out taunts and the new hate CA's and hold aggro like a champ...really kills the skill level specially for crusaders..<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> not much of a challenge or fun to try to hold aggro.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> this is the only issue I have with the change...killing out aggro tanking skills for easy mode.</blockquote>Oh.... It seems that I have misunderstood about SK once again!About recast and Grave Sacrament.I'm so ashamed.I'm sorry.Thank you for your correcting me.Yes, Grave Sacrament is a great spell.But I have misunderstood how it works.And so, after I heard your post, I have become to think Grave Sacrament more greater spell.Again, thank you.And I'll shut my mouth for a while....

Kaarim

01-20-2009, 04:07 AM

<cite>Nero wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh.... It seems that I have misunderstood about SK once again!About recast and Grave Sacrament.I'm so ashamed.I'm sorry.Thank you for your correcting me.Yes, Grave Sacrament is a great spell.But I have misunderstood how it works.And so, after I heard your post, I have become to think Grave Sacrament more greater spell.Again, thank you.And I'll shut my mouth for a while....</blockquote>It's no problem..ya it's a very powerful spell. It's good to post cause you may realize certain things you may have not before. We're all still learning <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

CHIMPNOODLE.

01-20-2009, 10:28 AM

Everybody comes to these boards to learn, or at least to read more about what's new or changing with the class. Very few of us agree on eveything, so don't worry about expressing your opinion lol.Can't say I know all abilities from the other tanks so they may have some others besides the ones you listed below. You got the ones I could think of too though. I did add to the SK ones however.Guardian: Rescue, Reinforcement, Sentry Watch, Sneering Asault, Cry of the WarriorBerserker: Rescue, Sneering Asault, Cry of the Warrior, Jeering Onslaught, Insolence(with Mythical)Paladin: Rescue, Holy Ground, Sneering AsaultShadow Knight: Rescue, Grave Sacrament, Sneering Asault, Deathmarch, Feign Death, Death Touch, Myth ClickyPersonally, I find we have the most snaps. DM still generates enough hate to snap back a position or hold through a short stun/stifle or move etc. Used it last night as such even, worked just fine for that purpose. Coincidentally, had 2 other SKs in raid as well (MT (me), OT, and another), and the only time aggro ever flipped on me for a sec was a couple of times when one or the other had DM'd and let loose.Also, when we we first hitting some mem-dumping, mem-blurring mobs, we had an easier time with an SK. I remember when we used to do Sunchild (think that was his name hehe..CoAA), Tarinax way back, Kordux and Varda, Doomcoil etc. Things just went smoother when an SK was in the mix...generally because of having an extra snap or two (me and a guard used to dual tank Tari and take turns with our "big snaps", same with Doomcoil, we also put more hate transfer and backup on the guard when we split up Kord and Vard etc.). Things like that. I think snap aggro is one of our strenghts actually.

BMonkeeus

01-20-2009, 01:46 PM

Myth clicky? Now come on guys, while I appreciate all the info and opinions that get thrown out here I would say that anything associated with the mythical weapon not be included. I would gather to say a very, very small percentage of SK's have or ever will have that weapon.

CHIMPNOODLE.

01-20-2009, 02:28 PM

I agree with you. I just added it to the list as the other poster had added the Zerky one <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />I find we still have plenty of tools without that anyway.

Maroger

01-20-2009, 02:55 PM

Tandy

01-20-2009, 10:24 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uncaged wrote:</cite><blockquote>I fail to see how you do not see this as the Nerf that it is. As I am a avid soloer 74 SK , I run with Def stance up all the time. I have all my damage proc.'s currently and have AA spent to offset the slash,pierce, crush penalties. So to recap for you , I currently have all DPS procs, the 15% better Mit, and no penalty because I have chosen to spend my AA on battle leadership to increase slash, pierce, crush. Also, I look for gear that adds +slash.So, explain to me exactly how this does not constitute a MAJOR nerf to me and my playstyle again?</blockquote>I am in the same position as you playing and I feel this is a MAJOR NERF to me and my playstyle. I am very upset about this change and I don';t Aeralik has thought through the impact on different playstayles. He has only considered group and raid which is very narrow minded of him. I think merging the buffs is an out and out NERF and I don;t care what anyone says.I did a lot of damage with Grim Strike - I loved that buff but the merger has totally killed it. And we are losing too much in Defense if we are in OFF stance. Heck not it is only -18 to Defense and Aeralik as raised it to 20 on what basis he will never tell us.I think his vision of this game is totally backwards. And I don't think he has a clue how a lot of people play this game. He has spent too much time looking at the situation in TSO and not the game as a whole.</blockquote>you do realize -20 to defensive in your offensive stance against SOLO mobs is really not a big deal. You still have more avoidance and mitigation than most other classes...who are able to kill those same mobs and not cry about it...and you have good damage against them also.If you have problems in other areas about this update it might be logical. But being upset over solo is just not something that I have found in my testing. Solo is faster than on live. If you solo in offensive stance...which most anyone with even 2 brain cells knows...you dont get nerfed at all.

Norrsken

01-21-2009, 01:08 PM

<cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uncaged wrote:</cite><blockquote>I fail to see how you do not see this as the Nerf that it is. As I am a avid soloer 74 SK , I run with Def stance up all the time. I have all my damage proc.'s currently and have AA spent to offset the slash,pierce, crush penalties. So to recap for you , I currently have all DPS procs, the 15% better Mit, and no penalty because I have chosen to spend my AA on battle leadership to increase slash, pierce, crush. Also, I look for gear that adds +slash.So, explain to me exactly how this does not constitute a MAJOR nerf to me and my playstyle again?</blockquote>I am in the same position as you playing and I feel this is a MAJOR NERF to me and my playstyle. I am very upset about this change and I don';t Aeralik has thought through the impact on different playstayles. He has only considered group and raid which is very narrow minded of him. I think merging the buffs is an out and out NERF and I don;t care what anyone says.I did a lot of damage with Grim Strike - I loved that buff but the merger has totally killed it. And we are losing too much in Defense if we are in OFF stance. Heck not it is only -18 to Defense and Aeralik as raised it to 20 on what basis he will never tell us.I think his vision of this game is totally backwards. And I don't think he has a clue how a lot of people play this game. He has spent too much time looking at the situation in TSO and not the game as a whole.</blockquote>you do realize -20 to defensive in your offensive stance against SOLO mobs is really not a big deal. You still have more avoidance and mitigation than most other classes...who are able to kill those same mobs and not cry about it...and you have good damage against them also.If you have problems in other areas about this update it might be logical. But being upset over solo is just not something that I have found in my testing. Solo is faster than on live. If you solo in offensive stance...which most anyone with even 2 brain cells knows...you dont get nerfed at all.</blockquote>Honestly, I didnt notice a big change in survivability agaisnt solo mobs. I were still fully capable of pulling as many of them as before the change and still burn them down fast and end with fullish health. I've been thinking about testing some of the heroics I used to solo in off stance jsut for good measure too later this week.

Levatino

01-22-2009, 06:40 AM

<snipped the other quotes for readability><cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I didnt notice a big change in survivability agaisnt solo mobs. I were still fully capable of pulling as many of them as before the change and still burn them down fast and end with fullish health. I've been thinking about testing some of the heroics I used to solo in off stance jsut for good measure too later this week.</blockquote>Please test it out on those heroics cause yes then we know for certain if it's a big nerf or not. Cause yes against solo mobs which anyone can handle it doesn't feel like a big test.Btw I'm also curious with what did they replace the aa choices? Reaver line must have been changed a lot I would think?

Tandy

01-22-2009, 02:30 PM

<cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I didnt notice a big change in survivability agaisnt solo mobs. I were still fully capable of pulling as many of them as before the change and still burn them down fast and end with fullish health. I've been thinking about testing some of the heroics I used to solo in off stance jsut for good measure too later this week.</blockquote>Please test it out on those heroics cause yes then we know for certain if it's a big nerf or not. Cause yes against solo mobs which anyone can handle it doesn't feel like a big test.Btw I'm also curious with what did they replace the aa choices? Reaver line must have been changed a lot I would think?</blockquote>They have been steadly moving towards needing help on heroics...so if solo mobs feel fine that should make a lot of people happy. Good/great players will always figure out ways to solo heroic mobs if they want, I doubt that will change.I can get 4 or 5 solo mobs burn them down with AoE/Trample and still be green for next pull with no problems most times.

TheSpin

01-22-2009, 02:53 PM

<cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I didnt notice a big change in survivability agaisnt solo mobs. I were still fully capable of pulling as many of them as before the change and still burn them down fast and end with fullish health. I've been thinking about testing some of the heroics I used to solo in off stance jsut for good measure too later this week.</blockquote>Please test it out on those heroics cause yes then we know for certain if it's a big nerf or not. Cause yes against solo mobs which anyone can handle it doesn't feel like a big test.Btw I'm also curious with what did they replace the aa choices? Reaver line must have been changed a lot I would think?</blockquote>They have been steadly moving towards needing help on heroics...so if solo mobs feel fine that should make a lot of people happy. Good/great players will always figure out ways to solo heroic mobs if they want, I doubt that will change.I can get 4 or 5 solo mobs burn them down with AoE/Trample and still be green for next pull with no problems most times.</blockquote>I have to agree with this. Any mob worth trying to solo on my brig lately, cannot be soloed. The last time I soloed a heroic for anything other than boredom was the triple up troll near the obelisk. It was just a quest update though, and no loot.I honestly prefer it this way. They are putting some decent legendary loot on soloable mobs, but making it impossible to solo the mobs with the best (fabled) loot.

Morgis

01-22-2009, 09:30 PM

Just an FYI - on test when in Offensive stance, SKs can't cast death march and the area disease debuff.

AziBam

01-22-2009, 10:16 PM

<cite>Morgis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just an FYI - on test when in Offensive stance, SKs can't cast death march and the area disease debuff.</blockquote>That's been changed already.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>As mentioned in another thread, this change was removed due to some of these conflicts. It should appear with the next test update which will then just stop threat effects from applying instead of not allowing you to cast them at all.</blockquote>

Sippin

01-23-2009, 01:42 AM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morgis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just an FYI - on test when in Offensive stance, SKs can't cast death march and the area disease debuff.</blockquote>That's been changed already.<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>As mentioned in another thread, this change was removed due to some of these conflicts. It should appear with the next test update which will then just stop threat effects from applying instead of not allowing you to cast them at all.</blockquote></blockquote>Can you link where you found this post. I just tested this and it looked like a bug to me but I would like to read Aeralik's post in its entirety and can't find it.

Levatino

01-23-2009, 03:50 AM

And the AA? How is Reaverline atm?

Kaarim

01-23-2009, 01:48 PM

<cite>Sippin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you link where you found this post. I just tested this and it looked like a bug to me but I would like to read Aeralik's post in its entirety and can't find it.</blockquote><cite></cite><cite></cite>Aeralik did fix it..it's not on the test..why it's not there not sure..but he is fully aware of the issue and this is not how it will be on live...you can cast your aoe taunt and death march in offensive when it goes live unless they patch it in the test serve before hand. Only thing is you will generate 0 threat but get the use of the effects tied to any hate type ability. I'm not worried about this, it's all good.

AziBam

01-23-2009, 02:58 PM

<cite>Sippin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you link where you found this post. I just tested this and it looked like a bug to me but I would like to read Aeralik's post in its entirety and can't find it.</blockquote><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=441564" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=441564</a>Near the bottom of page 2.And...<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=150&topic_id=441439" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=441439</a>Near the bottom of page 11.

Azekah1

01-23-2009, 05:54 PM

Don't make any assumptions about how it will affect your playstyle...just go check it out.Pointless/baseless complaints don't offer anything.

Maroger

01-23-2009, 07:28 PM

<cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't make any assumptions about how it will affect your playstyle...just go check it out.Pointless/baseless complaints don't offer anything.</blockquote>I did check it out and it is a NERF to me. My DPS is lower even in Offense and I am taking 25% more damage - I surely don't consider this a positive change.

Sippin

01-23-2009, 08:07 PM

<cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sippin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you link where you found this post. I just tested this and it looked like a bug to me but I would like to read Aeralik's post in its entirety and can't find it.</blockquote><cite></cite><cite></cite>Aeralik did fix it..it's not on the test..why it's not there not sure..but he is fully aware of the issue and this is not how it will be on live...you can cast your aoe taunt and death march in offensive when it goes live unless they patch it in the test serve before hand. Only thing is you will generate 0 threat but get the use of the effects tied to any hate type ability. I'm not worried about this, it's all good.</blockquote>I will admit my initial feed back was a little harsh, but upon futher evaluation I resubmitted feed back stating I thought it was a bug. I just wanted to read his offical response. I didn't actually think it would roll to live this way based on my testing and based on the post I originally quoted. I see it is linked below thanks all.

Tandy

01-23-2009, 08:20 PM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't make any assumptions about how it will affect your playstyle...just go check it out.Pointless/baseless complaints don't offer anything.</blockquote>I did check it out and it is a NERF to me. My DPS is lower even in Offense and I am taking 25% more damage - I surely don't consider this a positive change.</blockquote>If your taking 25% more damage I am Lord Nagafen. That is total and complete B.S. On test offensive is a bit HIGHER damage and I can take 4 or 5 mobs at once and not be in any danger of dying...so if you are havin that much problems with ONE solo mob you have no clue how to play your toon.This is not a nerf for lower lvls. It just isnt. Solo you prob wont notice a whole lot of changes if you would stop bellyaching about it and actually test it instead of looking at it and screaming "NERF NERF NERF".Its not a perfect update...there are lots of things that need / should be changed. But its not destorying your precious solo playstyle. Man up, get a pair and go kill some freaking mobs and get to 80 so you dont have to post everywhere about how your NOT 80. You could have been there if you had taken the time to level instead of cry about the nerfs you think you see.

Kaarim

01-23-2009, 09:05 PM

<cite>Tandy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azekah1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't make any assumptions about how it will affect your playstyle...just go check it out.Pointless/baseless complaints don't offer anything.</blockquote>I did check it out and it is a NERF to me. My DPS is lower even in Offense and I am taking 25% more damage - I surely don't consider this a positive change.</blockquote>If your taking 25% more damage I am Lord Nagafen. That is total and complete B.S. On test offensive is a bit HIGHER damage and I can take 4 or 5 mobs at once and not be in any danger of dying...so if you are havin that much problems with ONE solo mob you have no clue how to play your toon.</blockquote>I strongly agree...I am a solo player by day and a raider by night...and the changes haven't been noticebly different...it's a lil more dmg but...we are also doing a lil more dps as well so..seems to counter itself..it's not a big issue lol....=/ and if you want to tank instanced in offensive u can too and still hold aggro if u wish with ur DPS...but sry to say seeing how some ppl calling this a nerf to SK really dunno how to play or understand the class...won't be able to hold aggro with a pure DPS set up... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The changes are actually good...I mean it's making fighters better...so........o.O learn your roles and class...sry...=/

AziBam

01-24-2009, 08:09 PM

Best test I could think to do (for me) was running in SoF solo a bit. I've been doing that on live recently for the choker. I'd solo what had to be done and train/FD between the towers and pools. Once at Agony I'd then duo or trio with guildmates. (Yeah I've heard some people can solo him..yikes) I did not run the full zone mostly because if he actually dropped the choker for me on test I would be forced to break things in RL! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway, I didn't note any significant difference in damage coming in while in Offensive stance. Those are green heroics. They didn't seem to take any longer to kill on test. I wasn't parsing since I was trying more to get an overall feel instead of a point by point breakdown.Maroger (and others). The sky is not falling. Exaggerating damage with the change is not going to help you or us. You are correct that the proc on Unholy Arms currently on live is somewhat reduced on the new Offensive stance both in amount and frequency. Like I said though, I couldn't really pick out any difference in how it played for me. We are and continue to be strong soloers. What we gain in exchange for a very small dps reduction on our proc is the ability to tank in Def stance. That's huge. If you only and exclusively solo then maybe you are getting a very very small nerf. If that's the worst of it I certainly can live with it as I both solo and group. (not much raiding on my sk)Btw, they still need to fix the taunts. My single target taunt works in offensive but group and DM are still gray. As I posted before Aeralik has already said they are fixing it so the threat abilities will work just not generate hate when in Offensive stance. I assume it is yet to get updated properly. Certainly something to keep an eye on though.

Xeresta

01-26-2009, 05:36 PM

If the LU at test see the light without changes, SK are BROKEN again. They will not have a roll in raid, they are totally usseless... why do u change them in TSO and now NERF them and let the sk wrost than before the changes of last expansion? Why u want to have 4 plate tanks classes if at last, only can tank the guardian?I really think that devs make changes over paper. Play an SK and u will known the pain cause even CAN'T CLOSE AN H.O.!!! [Removed for Content] What are u thinking?And for all that player that NOT play an SK, pray for not been nerfed AND SHUT UP F*CKING OTHER CLASSES. It's a great sh*t and most of times are always same classes.Why dont u nerf assass Aeralik? Only one time, let them to be an usseless class and u will feel the same that the SK that are been f*cking cause u and the other devs don't know what roll do u want for that class.SK is a offensive tank class, but now is a half dps in offensive (that can't debuff disease, [Removed for Content]!!!) and is half defensive tank cause his dps is crap, so less agro.Grats guardians! You did it again, but unfortunatly, if an sk cryies like you, only will be nerfed again.Hope u lost tones of money thinking with your as*. At last, it's that only u want, more money.

Tandy

01-26-2009, 07:40 PM

<cite>Seresta wrote:</cite><blockquote>If the LU at test see the light without changes, SK are BROKEN again. They will not have a roll in raid, they are totally usseless... why do u change them in TSO and now NERF them and let the sk wrost than before the changes of last expansion? Why u want to have 4 plate tanks classes if at last, only can tank the guardian?I really think that devs make changes over paper. Play an SK and u will known the pain cause even CAN'T CLOSE AN H.O.!!! [Removed for Content] What are u thinking?And for all that player that NOT play an SK, pray for not been nerfed AND SHUT UP F*CKING OTHER CLASSES. It's a great sh*t and most of times are always same classes.Why dont u nerf assass Aeralik? Only one time, let them to be an usseless class and u will feel the same that the SK that are been f*cking cause u and the other devs don't know what roll do u want for that class.SK is a offensive tank class, but now is a half dps in offensive (that can't debuff disease, [Removed for Content]!!!) and is half defensive tank cause his dps is crap, so less agro.Grats guardians! You did it again, but unfortunatly, if an sk cryies like you, only will be nerfed again.Hope u lost tones of money thinking with your as*. At last, it's that only u want, more money.</blockquote>If you take a look at notes....not being able to 'close an HO is a bug that will fixed next pass...so you can cast your taunts they just have no threat. which also lets you use your disease debuff also.SK aggro is insane in this update. Dont worry there. If your in defensive you will tank just fine. In offensive your DPS is pretty good too, so you will have a good role in a raid if you currently do.I have said it tons of time, this is NOT a nerf for SK's. Most of what your complaining about has been discussed about being changed, give it a chance to get on test so you can see for youself once the next pass is done.

geophonic

01-27-2009, 05:13 AM

I really wonder why it´s the "solo & duo players" who start complaining now that something is changed about the SK class again ... barely you hear a concern from the group and raid players. I must conclude that anyone "only" playing their SK solo/duo and never think of the group/raid game are less skilled or don´t understand the class to its full extend (remember that sutpid post about bringing back the dumpfire pet? *eg*). People are crying nerf about changes that will, in my opinion, more than strengthen the SK class.And btw, where were all these people who suddenly appear on the forums today when it was necessary to fix something about the class? By the time when spell damage was a joke. None of those people who complain here today raised their voice when it was necessary.flame on

DxPreist1

02-06-2009, 06:20 PM

<cite>Corvinos@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really wonder why it´s the "solo & duo players" who start complaining now that something is changed about the SK class again ...Probably because they are the most affected by this change, huh. I know its crazy but considering the ever increasing gap between different grades of spells and armor a casual or new player in treasuredGear using a few adept I's and apprentice IV's has is taking a much larger hit on these massive changes that SOE is instituting more than 4 years after release of their game, and just possibly that bothers some people.barely you hear a concern from the group and raid players.I raid and Group quite often, I also solo and duo, and while I accept and appreciate a need for change and recognize that on their attempt to lure more casual players SOE did go a bit overboard on Fighter DPS, and that it must be remanaged somehow, I strongly disagree that this change is the best, or for that matter even good. Since I started playing SK's along with a few others have been Agressive tanks, dumbing down our playstyle and puting on an almost rigidly even bar with all the other tanks for all situations despite being known gamewide for 4 years as a damage output tankwith all the benefits and drawbacks that comes with it is simply gimping the class and removing the purpose of having more than 2 types of Fighter classes in the first place. I must conclude that anyone "only" playing their SK solo/duo and never think of the group/raid game are less skilled or don´t understand the class to its full extendI love these arguments, really. Honestly, playing in groups/raids/and soloing, it takes far less skill to be a good groupmember than it does a good soloer, likewise for raid. There I said it, and you can disagree if you want, but inside you know that it is WAY harder to bareley survive a barely green heroic encounter by yourself than to tank an encouter 2 levels higher with 5 other people watching your butt, they handle the DPS, Power, HP, and all you have to do is keep smacking the same 5 hate gen buttons and turn the [Removed for Content] mob around, admit it. I know that's why I like to solo, to increase the risk and run the gambit, to see what I can do, not what the other 5 people can do.(remember that sutpid post about bringing back the dumpfire pet? *eg*). People are crying nerf about changes that will, in my opinion, more than strengthen the SK class.Yeah, the one who thought the way it was implemented removed a chunk of RP value and wanted it put in line somehow, I sure do. He wasn't complainging aboput the effect change, he was griping about losing his cool as H#!! pet, and for that I agree. People are now crying YOU HAVE LESS SKILL on account of the fact that they simply didn't agree with you. In case you had not noticed the ONLY important part of the sentance above is here .... "in my opinion"... you have yours others have theirs.And btw, where were all these people who suddenly appear on the forums today when it was necessary to fix something about the class? By the time when spell damage was a joke. None of those people who complain here today raised their voice when it was necessary.More than likely they are the people who were playing other toons or other games, or left when it got rediculous. They were off having fun elsewhere. Has it occured to you that some of these people are the ones returningafter the changes that were made because it appealed to them more now than it had before? Or that they are the base of players that left other games because they were told that EQ2 was alot more fun or forgiving?flame onYou already did why shouldn't they.And what makes your opinion so bloody right in the first place? Unless your account costs you more than the 3 I have been paying for since launch or anyone elses for that matter, you in fact do not have any more right to express your opinion, nor does SOE owe any more leway to your feelings on the issue than 30 others that posted here. So please in the future before launching baseless accusation about anothers "Right" to be heard or ability that are not comparable to your "leet raiding skillz" in an open opinon forum, do us a favor and feel free to reel back on the self-inflated, self-rightous tone and stuff a sock in it. After all I doubt all your fighting for "the right kind of change" for so long like you imply you did happened in only 77 posts.</blockquote>

Matia

02-06-2009, 06:37 PM

<cite>Corvinos@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really wonder why it´s the "solo & duo players" who start complaining now that something is changed about the SK class again ... barely you hear a concern from the group and raid players. I must conclude that anyone "only" playing their SK solo/duo and never think of the group/raid game are less skilled or don´t understand the class to its full extend (remember that sutpid post about bringing back the dumpfire pet? *eg*). People are crying nerf about changes that will, in my opinion, more than strengthen the SK class.And btw, where were all these people who suddenly appear on the forums today when it was necessary to fix something about the class? By the time when spell damage was a joke. None of those people who complain here today raised their voice when it was necessary.flame on</blockquote>Perhaps they didn't say anything before because -a) They didn't agree with you *gasp* <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />b) They voiced an opinion and were told by some to shut up because they didn't know what they were talking about since someone else disagreed with them and feels only their opinion mattersc) They were voicing their feedback regularly in-game, but now have also started doing so here as well since it was ignored thered) Other/All of the above

Longfangz

02-08-2009, 03:21 AM

I don't like the LU, and they can push it back as much as they want to for all I care, or even not put it in alltogether. I don't have problems with aggro now, with the very few exception of a fabled/myth brig or wiz with no hate buffs. Aside from those I don't even need hate buffs and if I do happen to roll a instance with a dirge I tell them to run dps buffs instead.This isn't a L2P issue, this is a HUGE change in the way fighters play after almost 5 years into the game. I can see these changes being more subtle and handled easier if they had taken place in T6 maybe, but for those of us who have played all this time, it is simply breaking the class we have grown to know and love, even through all the crap expacs where SK was considered the most useless class in the game. This change affects raiders differently vs soloers vs small guild/PU groupers vs... everyone. It's not an upgrade for every single person who plays, and yes, my fighters are /testcopy'd.Is this LU affecting all fighters the same? Yes and no... I have 5 of the 6 fighters at the moment, and it affects each one differently. For SK imo it's going to be an ~easymode~ button for those who are poorly geared or poorly played (and no, I am not a fully fabled SK, I just know how to play my class well). Taunts have been broken for several expacs now and would be completely useless to even use if it weren't for the fact they are insta cast because they have NEVER scaled well through the levels vs autoattack and CA/spell damage... they actually create less aggro than a single autoattack of the fabled epic curently...None of the plate tanks have a 3rd stance as brawlers do (yes, I have an 80 bruiser as well, this isn't a nerf call, just experience talking) and so we are forced to either be a taunting punching bag that does nothing else for the group other than keep aggro(easymode with taunt values as they are... say hellokitty adventure island...) or unable to hold aggro no matter how well you time your CA/spells with autoattack in offensive due to hate reduction for what is so small of a damage upgrade that it's not worth even coding. My bruiser will at least still have the option of the middle stance in which to do decent damage while still having defensive AND offensive increases. Heck, I rarely use defensive now on my brawler, let alone after the LU.I can tell you this, decent tanks will have to be extremely selective from now on as to what classes/players/guilds they invite for certain isntances from now on. Gone are the days when I pulled a lower dps group through a difficult zone because I had the option to swap into offensive stance and do a bit more damage WHILE tanking while accepting the fact I was going to take more damage, but still finish the fight. Whereas after the LU, I will have to inspect every person I invite to a PUG in a more difficult zone because they aren't geared well enough to kill the mobs that I am laying the ultimate smackdown of taunts with little damage otherwise on, then I have wasted my time going that far and not being able to complete the zone. I can already keep the mob on me, what I want is to help kill it too.Also, with this update it will pretty much pigeonhole every single fighter to have to get STR4 in order to get taunt increase and taunt crits... nice, especially considering only a couple of my fighters have gone past STR3 (luckily STR5 ability for crusader is decent).Regardless of how many people cry "omg the sky is falling" and others retort "L2P", the issue still is that the basics of all tanks will change completely for all fighters, where only a couple classes currently need any large improvements as it is. Overkill at it's finest. The one, and only thing that I find appealing about the revamp is that I will gain some parry to my defensive stance, which of course I will have to use use every single fight from now on no matter the difficulty. Everything else is a nerf. My only guess is a certain assassin or a friend of his got outparsed by tanking SK in an AE encounter and "Foul!" was declared.Just say no to LU51.

geophonic

02-09-2009, 06:07 AM

oh yeah, thanks, since I am only the half [Removed for Content] mob turning 3 hate buttons pushing [Removed for Content] you describe I can easily step back and let you give all this oh so lovely feedback of how you do as a solo SK and how this will affect you. But I have to remind you of the fact that tanking requires more than this, more than is described with class skills or pushing button skills, but as a soloer you might not fully understand it *eg*Oh, and you have been known as a damage output tank for 4 years? In what game?My opinion is as valid as everyones elses and if I offend the solo players, so be it. I still think that the upgrade we got after TSO was a bit out of line dps wise and that the new fighter changes will only strengthen our class and the "big hit" you describe will be so tiny you won´t even notice even when soloing (and if you do someone might argue that you just can´t play this class). Even with MC or some legendary gear I THINK that it does NOT make you a less able soloer (well, as I said before, unless you suck).

Kaarim

02-09-2009, 03:05 PM

<cite>Corvinos@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>My opinion is as valid as everyones elses and if I offend the solo players, so be it. I still think that the upgrade we got after TSO was a bit out of line dps wise and that the new fighter changes will only strengthen our class and the "big hit" you describe will be so tiny you won´t even notice even when soloing (and if you do someone might argue that you just can´t play this class). Even with MC or some legendary gear I THINK that it does NOT make you a less able soloer (well, as I said before, unless you suck).</blockquote>I agree with most of what you said...I tested the changes out in a group setting and mainly solo settings because that is my playstyle if I'm not raiding..I solo. You don't notice a difference not even the damage intake..DPS is also a bit better too in offensive stance so it kinda trades off for the lil extra dmg you take. Not that big of a deal =s...the changes are good I think it will benefit both playstyles group or solo. If people want to flame me or disagree thats fine I'm just speaking from experience when I tested out these changes vigorously. To me it seems that the game is becoming based more on a higher skill factor than anything now...could be good or bad depending on your skill level of play.

Seolta

02-10-2009, 11:04 PM

Those of us who have always had a "high skill factor" never needed to rely on offensive to keep aggro.The easybutton Def stance/Taunt fest is a limiter of playstyles not an enabler of diff styles.With the proposed changes we are losing flexibility and are gaining NOTHING but the ability to be lazy.Having said that, i'm not totally opposed to the "vision" or the logic behind the changes, but i'm sick of seeing ppl blindly defend every aspect of this stuff, and drawing upon shaky logic to justify what to us is ultimately a net loss.TBH, what y'all should REALLY be worried about is the fact that every 2bit crybaby on the forums and in-game is screaming for our DPS to be drastically nerfed.Yeah, most of these people are simply morons who saw a top geared SK get an insane parse in a tailor-made group in a pure AE zone like Veks Theater, but you can never underestimate the power of the class jealousy QQ'ers.Remember what they did to our horse?

AziBam

02-11-2009, 01:36 AM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remember what they did to our horse?</blockquote>LOL Seolta. Actually, I'm guessing many here DON'T recall what happened to the horse. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Brings back painful memories though. Thanks man..why not just give me a papercut and pour lemon juice on it!

Matia

02-11-2009, 02:40 PM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remember what they did to our horse?</blockquote>LOL Seolta. Actually, I'm guessing many here DON'T recall what happened to the horse. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> Brings back painful memories though. Thanks man..why not just give me a papercut and pour lemon juice on it!</blockquote>Should we keep saying "Humperdink" too? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Seolta

02-11-2009, 08:22 PM

OMG...SK Nerf inc...Dev Tracker...Aeralik...I hate being right sometimes p

geophonic

02-12-2009, 06:19 AM

I have read that comment from the dev too. We can only hope that it´s a mere "adjustment" than a real nerf. let´s hope it won´t hit hart.The sad thing about this is it only happens because others feel tiny compared to a well played SK.

Nero

02-13-2009, 10:16 PM

I was afraid that SK would be nerfed because of other classes' jealousy.The anxiety proved right.Everything in this game is getting worse.

Levatino

02-14-2009, 12:49 PM

what did Aeralik say?

LygerT

02-14-2009, 03:38 PM

drastically is a bit over the top but yes, i've seen an SK with little buffs in their group outparse me while he had his tower out and i have to dual wield to do max dps. the whole point of the initial changes to tanks during TSO release was tank balance, and that is not balance.of course SKs needed a large boost and deserved to be a little overpowered, you had your fun for a few months but you can't expect it to last.

Longfangz

02-15-2009, 06:35 AM

Lyger, the prblem is that, quite frankly, zerks have been broken for 2 xpacs now. Back in T7 my zerk could be tank or dps depending on the situation, and zerkers could regularly pull aggro off the fully hate buffed MT when in DPS mode... I remember those days, back when my zerk was my main. Sadly he has been shelved as zerks have pretty much gone from top to bottom as far as tank preference due to dev nerfs.SK's have been the bottom tank since day one sadly, up till TSO where the devs finally started giving some thought to crusader (and bard) itemization where items had benefits for both melee and spell, whereas before you had to pick and choose, as well as decide whether to forgo defense for dps by wearing cloth items at times. They also pulled some decent AA's out for crusaders, whereas sadly, the zerk EoF tree is complete junk, save for the few CA increasing AA's which actually gave back less damage than they took prior to the expac release (thanks devs). They turned my zerk into the red-headed stepchild of the plate tanks which is why he is now shelved like my SK was for a while during the previous expacs.LU51 isn't about balance, it's about some crude idea that tanks should contribute nothing other than being a meatshield to any group/raid, which is complete and utter crap. If they simply had taken the time to listen to the players(you know, the ones who actually play the classes and actually know more than what the tooltip for an ability says) they would have been able to balance them and fix the tank issues a long time ago. Now sadly, I see them loosing alot of players who will be very unhappy with these changes simply because a select few people are praising the upcoming changes are hypnotized by the taunt values because they currently can't parse or hold aggro.Zerks suffer greatly in this issue with not having any +c/p/s buffs to negate their defensive stance, nor any way through AA's like crusaders to help null them out. This is one small easy fix for one of many issues and not something that requires this complete fighter revamp to take care of.If I wanted to mash 3-4 buttons to hold aggro and do hardly anything else for the group/raid I would go play WoW. No ty to easymode aggro. Good tanks are hard enough to find when I decide not to play one of mine and try to get a PUG together, let alone after the rvamp where all the good tanks stop playing and all that is left are the ones wearing MC armor at 80 who now have huge taunts to make up for the lack of gear/skill. Listen to the players for the fixes needed, we have given suggestions for years with no regard from the devs due to their 'vision' of what the game should be. The idea that miniscule dps increase in offensive is a joke considering where most fighters parse too low now(with exception of some well geared/played brawlers I raid with) compared to actual DPS classes that they will be even more unwelcome on raids if they are not filling the MT/OT spots.Some of the hate reduction changes are nice for some of the dps classes, whereas some of the changes are crap for those classes who had hate siphons changed to useless abilities. The fighter changes however, will loose alot of customers, hence why it has not been released as of yet.Do I think SK's are overpowered? No, comparing them to zerks in KoS, guards in EoF and RoK, and so on. I do however think the TSO AA's and gear have bumped them from the bottom to possibly sharing the top spot of plate tanks based on the encounter. For now I will enjoy my SK till they break them, and depending on the state of fighters after the revamp (I'm a tank, with 5 of the 6 fighters as my preferred characters to play) I and many others may start looking elsewhere than EQ2. Sadly I have tried most of the MMO's out there currently and have not been impressed, but I guess we will see how they compare after LU51 is released in whatever form it happens to be.

LygerT

02-16-2009, 03:37 AM

ive seen SKs do some pretty amazing things in TSO, things i know i could never accomplish in more than one respect. we are different types of tanks, that is true but as of now i see SKs overtaking in more than one category.i only really keep playing my "tank" as dps support to take a few hits, the changes will suck.if all tanks primary roles are to hold aggro and take hits then we shouldn't have these dps tools. from the beginning many of us who played the game called ourselves "offensive" and "defensive" tanks because of the tools we had. now things are completely changing to make classes AE and single target oriented and a forced playstyle. so all those old dps tools i have will mean nothing, even the mythical because hit rates will be in the toilet.this whole flavor of the year thing is just really killing my desire to play this game.

Nakash

02-18-2009, 11:50 AM

Problems are in the mind of some people.Since a long time every thing thats buffs Guards or Zerkers or brings the SK or Palas down to their, or under their "level" is balance in their mind. On the other hand everythink that buffs them or takes them above this classes is ok, and what brings them down is a nerf and cannot be zomg...Ok, you can switch role depending on who talks vice visa.Point is their are some people that are so green with envy that they dosnt have the game balance in focus, they just try to get as much from the cake as they can.Would be better for all if everyone centers on their own class and trys to get along with it then cry nerf on other classes. All based on a situation they either cant understand, or an parse they dosnt know exact.@Lyger: Ive seen zerkers who parse me out and with minimum support depending on situation...Now what ? We both suck ?I say: Its every time the same the most moaning gets the attention...sad but true.

Bruener

02-18-2009, 02:51 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>ive seen SKs do some pretty amazing things in TSO, things i know i could never accomplish in more than one respect. we are different types of tanks, that is true but as of now i see SKs overtaking in more than one category.i only really keep playing my "tank" as dps support to take a few hits, the changes will suck.if all tanks primary roles are to hold aggro and take hits then we shouldn't have these dps tools. from the beginning many of us who played the game called ourselves "offensive" and "defensive" tanks because of the tools we had. now things are completely changing to make classes AE and single target oriented and a forced playstyle. so all those old dps tools i have will mean nothing, even the mythical because hit rates will be in the toilet.this whole flavor of the year thing is just really killing my desire to play this game.</blockquote>I can definitely relate to this. The changes coming are going to make every tank play "similar" to a Guardian when tanking, meaning very low DPS with a focus just on taunts and survivability. This is not why many of us rolled our toons. If I wanted to play like a Guardian I would have rolled a Guard from the start since they seem to excel no matter what in that area.Yes the focus "seems" to be going to AE v ST tanks instead of Offensive v Defensive tanks. And, than of course they water it down by letting both be able to handle both types. That might be find and dandy in group content where the content is much more mixed in the amount of AE encounters v ST encounters. Where it is going to hurt is in the end game raiding content...once again. 95% of TSO raid content is still ST. Or if it does have an add to be OT most of the time it is a ST add. Aeralik states that he wants fighters to basically blow at dps so that scouts and mages can feel better about themselves even though the only reason they would conceivably be out parsed by a fighter is because the fighter has much better gear, the fighter is receiving much better dps buffs, or the fighter is just hands down a much better player.Point is, once again SOE is slashing the reasoning for bringing more than 2 fighters to a raid for the vast majority of the content. And, since he wants fighters to basically focus on tanking alone why would raids bring anything besides the most defensive tanks to make the job the easiest..aka the ST tanks.Fighter viability on raids was finally getting to the point where since offensive fighters could actually contribute descent DPS we were seeing 4 fighters on a raid. 4 FIGHTERS. Finally got to the number that bards and enchanters alone are bringing on raids...and for some reason Aeralik thinks that this needs to be changed? If fighters are going to be forced to be defensive for any type of tanking, than in offensive fighters better be beasts to make up for the lack of choices.

geophonic

02-18-2009, 03:32 PM

well, in my opinion the biggest problem we all have is that, no matter which topic is discussed, the yardstick ist always dps. shoulnd´t we talk about other things more often? e.g. "Can a SK MT or OT"the biggest gripe I have about all this is that in the years every single discussion on the forums about class balance has been based on "how good is my dps compared to class xy", while it definately should more deal with "how well will class xy act in a special environment (say raid/group/solo)".as Azzaroth said, if a Berserker outparses a well played and well geared SK, what exactly does it tell us?

LygerT

02-18-2009, 05:40 PM

<cite>Corvinos@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>well, in my opinion the biggest problem we all have is that, no matter which topic is discussed, the yardstick ist always dps. shoulnd´t we talk about other things more often? e.g. "Can a SK MT or OT"the biggest gripe I have about all this is that in the years every single discussion on the forums about class balance has been based on "how good is my dps compared to class xy", while it definately should more deal with "how well will class xy act in a special environment (say raid/group/solo)".as Azzaroth said, if a Berserker outparses a well played and well geared SK, what exactly does it tell us?</blockquote>i've been outtanked and out DPSed by an SK, there, is that better?

Giral

02-19-2009, 04:23 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corvinos@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>well, in my opinion the biggest problem we all have is that, no matter which topic is discussed, the yardstick ist always dps. shoulnd´t we talk about other things more often? e.g. "Can a SK MT or OT"the biggest gripe I have about all this is that in the years every single discussion on the forums about class balance has been based on "how good is my dps compared to class xy", while it definately should more deal with "how well will class xy act in a special environment (say raid/group/solo)".as Azzaroth said, if a Berserker outparses a well played and well geared SK, what exactly does it tell us?</blockquote>i've been outtanked and out DPSed by an SK, there, is that better?</blockquote>if you are being out Dps, and out tanked by an Sk in lesser gear who is new to the class, then you should be constantly proving and showing to the developers where and how to bring your class up to be in direct competition with Sk's as the Plate AE tank'ssince the game has Shifted from Offensive /Def tanks to single target and Ae target Tanks, so to does the players perceptions have to change about who thier counterparts are now, befor Sk and Pally was counterparts and Guard and zerker were counterparts , now Guard /pally and Sk /zerker are directly in competition .if thier is no competition and one tank is hands down better then their counterpart in less gear (IE : Gaurd >all other tanks thru ROK) then either one needs to be tweaked up or one needs to be tweaked down,Sk' and Zerkes still are supose to do high damage for tank classes, if your Dps as a zerker is Lacking i strongly would suggest all zerkers proving thru facts, parses, etc ,,, how to improve zerkers DPS to be in a competitive range Verses SK'ssame for Def, if an Sk easily survives against things you die easily , or more easily agianst again try and get your class tweaked up to be in direct competition with SK's in Def.. Sk's never wanted easymode, and they certianly dont want raid spots handed to them, if they cant Earn the spot thru thier skills they don't deserve them and shouldn't be there. if the differance between Sk's and Zerkers is night and day then Zerkers need some love to bring them up to a competative level, life without competition is boring. i dont know enough about Zerkers in thier curent state to argue the finer points , but if your lacking i hope you get the tweaks you need to bring you up to be a very good challange for Tank spots in raids, in equal gear and spell quality a tank should be chosen by skill alone , not becuase one is superiour becuase thier skill set makes them so , goodluck i hope you get the tweaks you need to fight for dps and tanking against SK's , i might even come back to eq2 if that happens just to give Zerks a run for thier money <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />.... Lord knows Paladins ,even tho they were easymode compared to Sk's Never where a challange.

Nakash

02-19-2009, 06:44 AM

<cite></cite><cite>L<a href="mailto:Lyger@Mistmoore">yger@Mistmoore</a> wrote:</cite><blockquote>i've been outtanked and out DPSed by an SK, there, is that better?</blockquote><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>@Lyger: Ive seen zerkers who parse me out and with minimum support depending on situation...Now what ? We both suck ?</blockquote>Get it ?

AziBam

02-19-2009, 11:00 AM

<cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><cite>L<a href="mailto:Lyger@Mistmoore">yger@Mistmoore</a> wrote:</cite><blockquote>i've been outtanked and out DPSed by an SK, there, is that better?</blockquote><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>@Lyger: Ive seen zerkers who parse me out and with minimum support depending on situation...Now what ? We both suck ?</blockquote>Get it ?</blockquote>Wow. That seems almost....balanced. Unlike how it's been in this game since launch. Lyger, based upon what Aeralik has posted it is pretty likely that both of our classes are going to see some nerfs soon. (Beyond anything to do with the overall figher revamp.) It's pretty hard to hold a civil conversation with you on the SK boards though when you have outright called for SK nerfs on the zerker ones. Yes, SKs posted a couple very high parses on flames. I've said before, if you do the math as a % of overall raid dps those parses are right inline with what zerkers are doing. (Lower % for the SK actually.)

Bruener

02-19-2009, 12:32 PM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><cite>L<a href="mailto:Lyger@Mistmoore">yger@Mistmoore</a> wrote:</cite><blockquote>i've been outtanked and out DPSed by an SK, there, is that better?</blockquote><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>@Lyger: Ive seen zerkers who parse me out and with minimum support depending on situation...Now what ? We both suck ?</blockquote>Get it ?</blockquote>Wow. That seems almost....balanced. Unlike how it's been in this game since launch. Lyger, based upon what Aeralik has posted it is pretty likely that both of our classes are going to see some nerfs soon. (Beyond anything to do with the overall figher revamp.) It's pretty hard to hold a civil conversation with you on the SK boards though when you have outright called for SK nerfs on the zerker ones. Yes, SKs posted a couple very high parses on flames. I've said before, if you do the math as a % of overall raid dps those parses are right inline with what zerkers are doing. (Lower % for the SK actually.)</blockquote>What is funny is that people see those parses and they are calling for SK nerfs. However, raiding with a Paladin on the raid as well, and if he is given a descent group he parses extremely well...with similar gear to me. We can swap groups and he MIGHT do 500 dps less than me. He was in a group last night with an inq/dirge/illu and on palace trash he was hitting 11k consistently. Now throw in a troub with him and give him some of the gear that the SK parsing 15k was wearing and I guarantee he would be parsing 14k+, and this is supposed to be the defensive tank? Nobody says anything about them and yet SKs are being brought up all over the place and in response Aeralik is going to be doing some "tweaks" to the class. Does that mean that Paladins now are going to be able to out parse us, because the good ones can parse close already.Also, what Zerkers and a lot of other classes seem to forget is that the mass amount of our dps in those special situations come from the classes buffing us...it is group DPS. I can roll with just a troub and illu and parse 8-9k pretty consistently if I am not getting IA. Now, you throw an inq in the mix and he will increase my parse probably 1.5-2k. Add in a dirge and you get another 2k. This is all from buffs. SKs use a lot more stats and modifiers to DPS, hence they can take advantage of a lot more buffs. You take a Bezerker and a SK both in a fat kid group they will parse the same. You give each of them just a dirge they will parse the same. Give them a dirge and a coercer they parse the same. The difference is when you start stacking up more of the proc buffs....inq, troub, illu. Zerkers complain about how easily they cap all their DPS increasers...it is just not as easy for a SK, its because of that that when you do stack or overload a group with a SK in it that they can increase some of those stats more and the dps will start to climb. But why stack the group for the SK when you can stack the group for the Assassin?

geophonic

02-19-2009, 12:58 PM

someone please remind me that I have to start posting some of my worst parses so all the enviers can be looking somewhere else <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

AziBam

02-19-2009, 03:25 PM

I'm not at a place where I can check these changes yet but this certainly doesn't bode well....Shadowknight <ul><li>Shadowknights can now cast the Decree line while stunned or stifled.</li><li>Adjusted the damage of the Doom Judgment, Sickening Decay, Cruel Intent, and Tap Veins spell lines.</li></ul>From test update notes.

Latpow

02-19-2009, 04:09 PM

Well to be fair, the SK (Khronos) that's "outparsing and outtanking" Lyger is pretty much the best SK on the server and has been known as such way before the revamp. SKs are a bit strong vs Berserkers atm mostly due improved itemization, ability to capitalize on both caster / melee buffs, the fact that Crusaders are stuck with Shield and Board, and some sick end line AA abilities. My view, while not popular, has always been that if Crusaders are going to "DPS" they should be required to use a 2h'er... much like how Warriors have to Dual Wield. That's a whole new can of worms though....Darkc

AziBam

02-19-2009, 05:13 PM

<cite>Latpow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well to be fair, the SK (Khronos) that's "outparsing and outtanking" Lyger is pretty much the best SK on the server and has been known as such way before the revamp. SKs are a bit strong vs Berserkers atm mostly due improved itemization, ability to capitalize on both caster / melee buffs, the fact that Crusaders are stuck with Shield and Board, and some sick end line AA abilities. My view, while not popular, has always been that if Crusaders are going to "DPS" they should be required to use a 2h'er... much like how Warriors have to Dual Wield. That's a whole new can of worms though....Darkc</blockquote>Hrm, well about the 2 handers. I'd either then want the mythical (or fabled epic for that matter) to be clicky convertable into an insane 2 hander at will OR the ability to DW. I'd be pretty darn [Removed for Content] if every class in the game did their best dps with their mythical equipped other than us. (Ok, some of the healers dps more with a 2 hander but I view that as a different scenario.)As for the SKs being a bit strong vs. zerkers I honestly just plain haven't seen it. I will be the first to admit though that my best comparison is an excellent zerker that has somewhat better gear than I do (or the other SKs I know.) I just am constantly seeing people on the boards here throwing out BS parses that supposedly some barely 80 sk alt that was mothballed for 2 years and has 17 AAs can do now. You hear about that level 18 sk doing 10k zw in ToMC? /rolls eyesEdit to add: In fairness, I will also add that my paragraph above regaring SKs and zerks is specifically aimed at dps and general tanking. I will admit that I think we have a stronger setup for solo with how we tap health and power. (now that mana siege is actually worth casting)

LygerT

02-23-2009, 07:22 PM

of course, because in order to do the most dps you can you give up survivability. in order to keep up with aggro i have to dual wield and then there the gap between survivability widens as well as even the room to pull in more dps because even though many SKs consider their reliance on more stats to improve, that could also be considered a strength because you have more ways to benefit and do more where we have none except a few more weak procs stacked on.no one likes nerfs, but realistically i haven't seen sony take the approach to buffing classes to be equals in a while, last time i saw it was with SK and i honestly think they went a little overboard. we all will defend what we have, as i'm sure i would do the same if i was in your situation but denying that there is a difference, well, it makes you look either ignorant or selfish.

Tiberuis

02-23-2009, 09:27 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>of course, because in order to do the most dps you can you give up survivability. in order to keep up with aggro i have to dual wield and then there the gap between survivability widens as well as even the room to pull in more dps because even though many SKs consider their reliance on more stats to improve, that could also be considered a strength because you have more ways to benefit and do more where we have none except a few more weak procs stacked on.no one likes nerfs, but realistically i haven't seen sony take the approach to buffing classes to be equals in a while, last time i saw it was with SK and i honestly think they went a little overboard. we all will defend what we have, as i'm sure i would do the same if i was in your situation but denying that there is a difference, well, it makes you look either ignorant or selfish.</blockquote>Zerkers do excellent DPS while tanking in the current game. It is my perception that the raiding/group running zerker in my guild does a good job of DPS, OT, holding aggro. He always parses very well, especially with his Mythical.Lyger, listen up bro. If the proposed changes go Live, you won't have to worry about DPS for your plate tank anymore. Because you will be completely unable to tank while in Offensive stance anyways. SK and Zerker DPS while tanking will become irrelevant. Hit the taunt macro and go get a soda, while you take your beating. Do you find that exciting?Did you roll a Zerker to taunt (a.k.a. yell, scream, hurl insults at) mobs and take your beating? Is that how you expected to hold aggro?Or did you roll your Zerker to kill mobs, and fight while you are BEZERK to hold aggro, while taking your beating?I think we both know the answer to that one.

DMIstar

02-23-2009, 10:11 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>of course, because in order to do the most dps you can you give up survivability. in order to keep up with aggro i have to dual wield and then there the gap between survivability widens as well as even the room to pull in more dps because even though many SKs consider their reliance on more stats to improve, that could also be considered a strength because you have more ways to benefit and do more where we have none except a few more weak procs stacked on.no one likes nerfs, but realistically i haven't seen sony take the approach to buffing classes to be equals in a while, last time i saw it was with SK and i honestly think they went a little overboard. we all will defend what we have, as i'm sure i would do the same if i was in your situation but denying that there is a difference, well, it makes you look either ignorant or selfish.</blockquote>Haveing to have 800str 700int equaling out 1500 points in stats just to get to the threshold of the wars 800 str is not balanceing what so ever .. Nor a dam benifit.. Hell at this threshold we are at estimated 350mana varience on our end which is BS considering none of this is compensated for on the direct Ability end.why am I eating away my mana makeing parseings that zerkers in my guild are doing with half ? ! ?No wait my supposed DPS gain on Berserkers is to compensate on the Shaft we get with Pure avoidence gains through AGI and Now Base Crit mit gains. But no worries we will give you guys TSO AA's direclty for Shield Effectiveness to compensate for that..Now an SK truly Only Needs to Get STR / STA/ INT / AGI to contend with Berserker STR / STA / AGI gains .. But no worries we will stick you with pallies and give you WIS gains instead of AGI gains.. and will give you worthless spell crit on the same gear instead of the melee gains that we are makeing sure to have on just the archetype style gear that we will continue to produce. Which landed you in the gutter in the first place ..

DMIstar

02-23-2009, 10:58 PM

Seriously How the hell is the Average TSO SK.. Which is pretty forced down the Zealot/Void Shard Path (Find me sks that are not funneled this path mind you ? ) With a whopping 12 MC crit.. and 1 ? DA point .. more Spell crit and omg the ever helpfull heal/Heal crit/Wis Gains that dont even effect us. Is beating pure Melee that share the entire Suit Benefits in the first god dam place ...It must be the spells ...But The SK's parses are showing1. Slash, 2. <Proc> 3.<Proc> 4. <Proc>OMG Sk's Get Int and Spell Crit gains that Inadvertantly effect procs =X ... So this means for a melee to compensate they are going to have to acquire getting a "4th" stat to compensate if they want to go that route .. the poor fning war...in the meantime i have to go through archetype gear for Melee gains, just to compensate for the all the varying gains we need to get, since the bane of our damage so happens to be weapons auto attack. The orignal Veksar zone showed a lot of promise, but now that sort of gear is just a myth. .. So for the melee that dont get auto gains for the larger procs.. /cry me a river.

LygerT

02-24-2009, 12:19 AM

you're high, i've been capped in just about everything for over 2 expansions now, what is to look forward to? you see your cieling being higher as a weakness but it is a strength because you always have room to go anywhere you wish to focus in.Tiberuis, the feces that is on test, not many tanks want that, especially not the formerly known "offensive" tanks so i keep referring to what is on live because i don't even want to think of how it will be once the changes are finally implemented.

DMIstar

02-24-2009, 12:38 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>you're high, i've been capped in just about everything for over 2 expansions now, what is to look forward to? you see your cieling being higher as a weakness but it is a strength because you always have room to go anywhere you wish to focus in.</blockquote>Then what the hell is the problem? you might have to forfiet the ability to be capped and have INT/Spell crit at the same time ? you need it on a silver platter ?Berserkers will slit thier throats before wanting to have another stat to upkeep and whole set of gains. You see your ceiling as wanting to keep it. We see it as the huge hinderance and realality that it is. IF the melee is getting beat, he is being out classed period.

Bruener

02-24-2009, 01:55 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>you're high, i've been capped in just about everything for over 2 expansions now, what is to look forward to? you see your cieling being higher as a weakness but it is a strength because you always have room to go anywhere you wish to focus in.Tiberuis, the feces that is on test, not many tanks want that, especially not the formerly known "offensive" tanks so i keep referring to what is on live because i don't even want to think of how it will be once the changes are finally implemented.</blockquote>That is the problem. Zerkers are saying it is so easy to cap all their melee skills....than how come you guys aren't gearing for more spell crit gear? There is tons of jewelry with spell crit on it useable by all classes. Unlike SKs that always sacrifice a said stat to gain in another stat you guys just don't want to do it. You would rather them change your AAs so that you get a crap load of spell crit now too so that you can stay capped in every area solo buffed. Ridiculous.

Obadiah

02-24-2009, 02:19 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>you're high, i've been capped in just about everything for over 2 expansions now, what is to look forward to? you see your cieling being higher as a weakness but it is a strength because you always have room to go anywhere you wish to focus in.Tiberuis, the feces that is on test, not many tanks want that, especially not the formerly known "offensive" tanks so i keep referring to what is on live because i don't even want to think of how it will be once the changes are finally implemented.</blockquote>That is the problem. Zerkers are saying it is so easy to cap all their melee skills....than how come you guys aren't gearing for more spell crit gear? There is tons of jewelry with spell crit on it useable by all classes. Unlike SKs that always sacrifice a said stat to gain in another stat you guys just don't want to do it. You would rather them change your AAs so that you get a crap load of spell crit now too so that you can stay capped in every area solo buffed. Ridiculous.</blockquote>Um ... because spell crit doesn't do anything for Zerkers? Just a thought.Not that I agree with everything Lyger's saying, but that's his point. He would LIKE to have another stat to increase.However, with GU51, even assuming a few things change/get fixed, we'll ALL have another line or two to upgrade down (+Taunt base, +Aggression) Not particularly sexy, perhaps.

Bruener

02-24-2009, 03:34 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>you're high, i've been capped in just about everything for over 2 expansions now, what is to look forward to? you see your cieling being higher as a weakness but it is a strength because you always have room to go anywhere you wish to focus in.Tiberuis, the feces that is on test, not many tanks want that, especially not the formerly known "offensive" tanks so i keep referring to what is on live because i don't even want to think of how it will be once the changes are finally implemented.</blockquote>That is the problem. Zerkers are saying it is so easy to cap all their melee skills....than how come you guys aren't gearing for more spell crit gear? There is tons of jewelry with spell crit on it useable by all classes. Unlike SKs that always sacrifice a said stat to gain in another stat you guys just don't want to do it. You would rather them change your AAs so that you get a crap load of spell crit now too so that you can stay capped in every area solo buffed. Ridiculous.</blockquote>Um ... because spell crit doesn't do anything for Zerkers? Just a thought.Not that I agree with everything Lyger's saying, but that's his point. He would LIKE to have another stat to increase.However, with GU51, even assuming a few things change/get fixed, we'll ALL have another line or two to upgrade down (+Taunt base, +Aggression) Not particularly sexy, perhaps.</blockquote>No. You cannot have both sides of an argument, that is not how it works. You guys complain that spell crit AA's and the fact SKs can raise their spell crit is why SKs see more of an increase. Specifically this is in reference to procs. Raising your spell crit and base spell damage and spell mod will increase your procs. Yes that is the next step. Take it or live with it. Why do you think in the "perfect" group where SKs are receiving tons of procs from other people that the SK parses more? That is where things start to distinguish. So far 99% of the game, up until you get to the raid end, where SKs are level 80, actually have gear that is balanced with spell/melee increasers Bezerkers have it easier because they worry about less stats and it is easier for them to increase. Now you guys wanna complain about the 1% where SKs start to make up for the in-efficiency and actually turn their weakness into a strength because gear/buffs/AAs finally get to the point where SKs can start to cap their dps increasers. That is fair how?To top it off I give you the secret of how to increase your dps more. Find items with spell crit and +spell damage. Mix it in with your melee gear for dps if that is what you want to maximize, you will see an increase from this on raids or in groups. Yeah, it really doesn't sound fun does it? Guess what that is what SKs have had to do all along. Balance melee increasers with spell increasers. To this day MOST stuff is still melee increasing, but there is still some spell increasing gear out there that you guys can get. Now, once you start maxing spell crit and spell damage along with melee caps let me know how you parse. Doubtful you will have any type of argument.

Obadiah

02-24-2009, 04:24 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>No. You cannot have both sides of an argument, that is not how it works. You guys complain that spell crit AA's and the fact SKs can raise their spell crit is why SKs see more of an increase. Specifically this is in reference to procs. Raising your spell crit and base spell damage and spell mod will increase your procs. Yes that is the next step. Take it or live with it. Why do you think in the "perfect" group where SKs are receiving tons of procs from other people that the SK parses more? That is where things start to distinguish. So far 99% of the game, up until you get to the raid end, where SKs are level 80, actually have gear that is balanced with spell/melee increasers Bezerkers have it easier because they worry about less stats and it is easier for them to increase. Now you guys wanna complain about the 1% where SKs start to make up for the in-efficiency and actually turn their weakness into a strength because gear/buffs/AAs finally get to the point where SKs can start to cap their dps increasers. That is fair how?To top it off I give you the secret of how to increase your dps more. Find items with spell crit and +spell damage. Mix it in with your melee gear for dps if that is what you want to maximize, you will see an increase from this on raids or in groups. Yeah, it really doesn't sound fun does it? Guess what that is what SKs have had to do all along. Balance melee increasers with spell increasers. To this day MOST stuff is still melee increasing, but there is still some spell increasing gear out there that you guys can get. Now, once you start maxing spell crit and spell damage along with melee caps let me know how you parse. Doubtful you will have any type of argument.</blockquote>You know ... that's the best argument I've heard for making +Spell Crit and +Spell Damage not affect procs.

Bruener

02-24-2009, 04:38 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>No. You cannot have both sides of an argument, that is not how it works. You guys complain that spell crit AA's and the fact SKs can raise their spell crit is why SKs see more of an increase. Specifically this is in reference to procs. Raising your spell crit and base spell damage and spell mod will increase your procs. Yes that is the next step. Take it or live with it. Why do you think in the "perfect" group where SKs are receiving tons of procs from other people that the SK parses more? That is where things start to distinguish. So far 99% of the game, up until you get to the raid end, where SKs are level 80, actually have gear that is balanced with spell/melee increasers Bezerkers have it easier because they worry about less stats and it is easier for them to increase. Now you guys wanna complain about the 1% where SKs start to make up for the in-efficiency and actually turn their weakness into a strength because gear/buffs/AAs finally get to the point where SKs can start to cap their dps increasers. That is fair how?To top it off I give you the secret of how to increase your dps more. Find items with spell crit and +spell damage. Mix it in with your melee gear for dps if that is what you want to maximize, you will see an increase from this on raids or in groups. Yeah, it really doesn't sound fun does it? Guess what that is what SKs have had to do all along. Balance melee increasers with spell increasers. To this day MOST stuff is still melee increasing, but there is still some spell increasing gear out there that you guys can get. Now, once you start maxing spell crit and spell damage along with melee caps let me know how you parse. Doubtful you will have any type of argument.</blockquote>You know ... that's the best argument I've heard for making +Spell Crit and +Spell Damage not affect procs.</blockquote>Oh yes, because you are too lazy to actually gear for it, than therefore it shouldn't be. That is a great argument.On one side you complain cause you can't DPS quite as much a SK at the very high end maxing all your melee stats. On the other side you complain that it is SK actually using their multiple stats to get this done, and you are too lazy to do it yourself. Guess what I am a top geared SK. I am not even close to maxing my melee crit, DA, haste, dps mod, or spell crit self buffed. Can you say the same thing?

Obadiah

02-24-2009, 04:54 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh yes, because you are too lazy to actually gear for it, than therefore it shouldn't be. That is a great argument.On one side you complain cause you can't DPS quite as much a SK at the very high end maxing all your melee stats. On the other side you complain that it is SK actually using their multiple stats to get this done, and you are too lazy to do it yourself. Guess what I am a top geared SK. I am not even close to maxing my melee crit, DA, haste, dps mod, or spell crit self buffed. Can you say the same thing?</blockquote>Point to where I complained about not being able to DPS as much as an SK. I never have and never will. I have complained that with the current revision on Test they have 33% more hate through taunts than Berserkers, but most of the threads I've seen seem to indicate they don't even WANT that hate.You confuse "Lyger" with "Berserkers", I think. And even he never complained that spell crit AA's and the fact that SKs can raise their spell crit was why they see more of an increase.I, in fact, never complained about max-ing all my melee stats. I'm only early TSO raiding, but since they were reduced for TSO my DA is FAR from capped. Melee Crit sits in 70s most raids. DPS and Haste are not capped self-buffed.But for melee characters who don't have a Spells section of their Knowledge Book to benefit from +Spell Crit gear is more than a little stupid.

LygerT

02-24-2009, 05:04 PM

no, i don't want another stat to cap and spell crit should have been on melee gear for a lot longer than mainly just tso and even still the pool of gear is pretty weak for crusaders. it should be increased but at the same time a cap put on the stat for hybrid caster classes. you have alot more flexibility than you may think.the SKs getting mad telling a zerk to gear for spell crit, you really have no clue. he already said a) there is no warrior gear with spell crit on it because b) we have NO SPELLS!. durrrr.i could dps as well as our SK was but that was without a stacked group for him to dps in while i would be in a fully stacked group. on the other end i offer less survivability when dps tanking to compete in just about any group we were tossed into. so that, in a nutshell means zerk is a poorer offtank and a poorer main tank when the times come. some just don't see themselves overpowered just because they haven't been put into that position near endgame raiding and perhaps that is the only area where the issue presents itself, which an easy fix would be a lower cap on some stats. but the "high end geared SKs" speaking here who claim nothing is wrong, you are just being selfish to make up for the time when you were underpowered.

Bruener

02-24-2009, 05:31 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>no, i don't want another stat to cap and spell crit should have been on melee gear for a lot longer than mainly just tso and even still the pool of gear is pretty weak for crusaders. it should be increased but at the same time a cap put on the stat for hybrid caster classes. you have alot more flexibility than you may think.the SKs getting mad telling a zerk to gear for spell crit, you really have no clue. he already said a) there is no warrior gear with spell crit on it because b) we have NO SPELLS!. durrrr.i could dps as well as our SK was but that was without a stacked group for him to dps in while i would be in a fully stacked group. on the other end i offer less survivability when dps tanking to compete in just about any group we were tossed into. so that, in a nutshell means zerk is a poorer offtank and a poorer main tank when the times come. some just don't see themselves overpowered just because they haven't been put into that position near endgame raiding and perhaps that is the only area where the issue presents itself, which an easy fix would be a lower cap on some stats. but the "high end geared SKs" speaking here who claim nothing is wrong, you are just being selfish to make up for the time when you were underpowered.</blockquote>Here is where you are wrong. I am telling you there is plenty of jewelry out there for spell crit that warriors can wear. No it is not "warrior" gear, but it is wearable and will boost procs. This is where the majority of SK dps is coming from after you take out the auto attack factor. Our spells are weak as hell and only count for a small part of our dps. I can pull a raid parse and look at myself and after auto attack the next highest is a proc somebody gives me, usually fanatical devotion, after that is another proc precision, after that another proc..peace of mind, after that anothe proc, and so on and so on. Finally maybe 6 items down I will find my first highest hitting spell.Also Lyger all of these arguments still become completely moot on test since as an OT riding defensive both classes will have sucky DPS. This does not justify the nerfs on top of the SKs that we are also seeing, like the AE nerfs and the big nerf to Knights Stance.And when claiming your case for having to DW to get similar DPS I do not feel bad for at all. As a SK throughout RoK I actually posted to give SKs DW to close the huge gap that was present there., or to make 2h weapons equal to DW'ing. Neither of which SOE wanted to do. The DW thing I am not sure why other than the "role-playing" aspect about knights and increasing 2h weapons probably is way more of a mess than they want to deal with since honestly all itemization of 2h weapons needs to be upgraded and than you still have the issue of the SK epic being a 1h weapon like every other class.

Bruener

02-24-2009, 05:33 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>But for melee characters who don't have a Spells section of their Knowledge Book to benefit from +Spell Crit gear is more than a little stupid.</blockquote>Funny, because other melee classes have figured this out and are in fact increasing their spell crit because they know it increases their proc dps and their poison proc dps.I guess to be the best you learn to adapt.

LygerT

02-24-2009, 06:24 PM

procs make up maybe 10% of our DPS, you're thick if you think losing half of your melee crit is worth 15% spell crit to bump up your proc damage from the few items that are caster based that we may be able to use. take a look at the pieces that drop sometime, none of the spell crit gear that can be used by warriors has ANY fighter stats on it whatsoever, BUT crusader hybrid gear has heal crit, spell crit, double attack, melee crit, etc all on the same piece.i don't even know why we are arguing over something so stupid, now if there was more pieces that warriors could use that had all of the above AND was usable by a warrior then yes, you would have a point.crusader and scout gear has int on it for a reason, you've just chosen to ignore the fact that warrior gear does not have much if any benefit to procs at all.

DMIstar

02-24-2009, 06:28 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>no, i don't want another stat to cap and spell crit should have been on melee gear for a lot longer than mainly just tso and even still the pool of gear is pretty weak for crusaders. it should be increased but at the same time a cap put on the stat for hybrid caster classes. you have alot more flexibility than you may think.</blockquote>Omg At Max int and spell mods we have 3 Spells at over 3k hits each but we have no fning clue why when further looking at our preciouse sk overpowered parses that we find these same three near the bottom of the list ... Atleast try to figure out whats going on.Being none Flexible is a problem with the player behind the class.. not the class itself. the SKs getting mad telling a zerk to gear for spell crit, you really have no clue. he already said a) there is no warrior gear with spell crit on it because b) we have NO SPELLS!. durrrr.Lets see the side effect of Berserkers haveing int/spell crit is higher procs ... the side of effect of sks sitting at 13%+ and 100 + heal mod is completely jack .. but hey this is what happens when your paired with a class that uses mods that you cant ... I so /mourn the berserkers very much .... i could dps as well as our SK was but that was without a stacked group for him to dps in while i would be in a fully stacked group. on the other end i offer less survivability when dps tanking to compete in just about any group we were tossed into. so that, in a nutshell means zerk is a poorer offtank and a poorer main tank when the times come. some just don't see themselves overpowered just because they haven't been put into that position near endgame raiding and perhaps that is the only area where the issue presents itself, which an easy fix would be a lower cap on some stats. but the "high end geared SKs" speaking here who claim nothing is wrong, you are just being selfish to make up for the time when you were underpowered. So somehow theres no varience in gear gains between you and the sk.. Theres no playstyle differences.. and no other multitude of varieing factors.. makeing all equal and your just getting beat ? Personally I don't buy any of it. Just because your getting beat by one player doesnt mean the entire class is the problem.And the huge problem with this is, theres no real data on these peoples claims to even make up for what they are saying. which is becomeing tiresome and more of a broken record of we do not know ...

LygerT

02-24-2009, 06:32 PM

when even a few SKs start to say they are overpowered and say that they could lose some and still be ok, that speaks for itself. those who grasp onto it like a piece of meat when you are starving will be the ones who cry foul the most and perhaps are the ones who don't know how to play the class or do not have groups that fully support your class and percieve it as not as well off as it could be.that or you want to remain overpowered because somehow you feel you "deserve it" from the past wrongs that have gone on for the SK class for years. none of which is a good reason for leaving other classes below the standard and basically out of place or unneeded. as i said before, i wanted to see SKs boosted before zerkers were because your class needed it the most, but eventually things have to be balanced out again since it went too far the other way.

DMIstar

02-24-2009, 06:36 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>when even a few SKs start to say they are overpowered and say that they could lose some and still be ok, that speaks for itself. those who grasp onto it like a piece of meat when you are starving will be the ones who cry foul the most and perhaps are the ones who don't know how to play the class or do not have groups that fully support your class and percieve it as not as well off as it could be.</blockquote>everything to tip tow around facts and getting real data ..

LygerT

02-24-2009, 06:41 PM

what do you want? a ****ing youtube video? hello.. devs cant even balance classes and you want me to write a report. try playing the classes and compare how they perform in equal gear at a high end raid perspective, if your zerk is doing better than you(if you have one on your roster) in survivability or dps then i'd like to see what groups and gear you have vs him.

DMIstar

02-24-2009, 06:46 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>what do you want? a ****ing youtube video? hello.. devs cant even balance classes and you want me to write a report. try playing the classes and compare how they perform in equal gear at a high end raid perspective, if your zerk is doing better than you(if you have one on your roster) in survivability or dps then i'd like to see what groups and gear you have vs him.</blockquote>I want to cut through the bs and the only way to do that is data on equal lvl plain.. atm all i see is people hoping onto a boat just because they can and in the meantime in game things are completly different.

Obadiah

02-24-2009, 06:47 PM

Not to change the subject, but:The spell damage penalty from defensive stances has been removed.

LygerT

02-24-2009, 06:54 PM

<cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>what do you want? a ****ing youtube video? hello.. devs cant even balance classes and you want me to write a report. try playing the classes and compare how they perform in equal gear at a high end raid perspective, if your zerk is doing better than you(if you have one on your roster) in survivability or dps then i'd like to see what groups and gear you have vs him.</blockquote>I want to cut through the bs and the only way to do that is data on equal lvl plain.. atm all i see is people hoping onto a boat just because they can and in the meantime in game things are completly different.</blockquote>if i could see your profile i might be able to tell you where your weaknesses lie vs berserkers but as of now all i can assume is that you are not an "endgame" SK like i have been saying through this whole thread.in heroic zones or versus zerkers who are fresh into raiding who still have room to grow, the differences will be slight. versus zerkers in endgame gear as they cap this and enter hard diminishing returns in that, that is where you see the differences come in.i probably wouldn't have put my zerk on the shelf and be having this conversation if there wasn't such a distinguished difference between the 2 classes since it will be our role, or in how the changes on test also are destroying not only our dps but also our hate per second in just about every area and getting worse with every patch. if you think the changes on test are bad for you as an SK, you really have no clue.

DMIstar

02-24-2009, 07:45 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>what do you want? a ****ing youtube video? hello.. devs cant even balance classes and you want me to write a report. try playing the classes and compare how they perform in equal gear at a high end raid perspective, if your zerk is doing better than you(if you have one on your roster) in survivability or dps then i'd like to see what groups and gear you have vs him.</blockquote>I want to cut through the bs and the only way to do that is data on equal lvl plain.. atm all i see is people hoping onto a boat just because they can and in the meantime in game things are completly different.</blockquote>if i could see your profile i might be able to tell you where your weaknesses lie vs berserkers but as of now all i can assume is that you are not an "endgame" SK like i have been saying through this whole thread.in heroic zones or versus zerkers who are fresh into raiding who still have room to grow, the differences will be slight. versus zerkers in endgame gear as they cap this and enter hard diminishing returns in that, that is where you see the differences come in.i probably wouldn't have put my zerk on the shelf and be having this conversation if there wasn't such a distinguished difference between the 2 classes since it will be our role, or in how the changes on test also are destroying not only our dps but also our hate per second in just about every area and getting worse with every patch. if you think the changes on test are bad for you as an SK, you really have no clue.</blockquote>Personally I have not followed up on the Hate changes in depth and will deal with that when it comes out, I however see varieing Reports between numbers that people are giveing. This is something ill wait out till it is pushed into live. I will not believe in the dps disparity until i see it.. Maybe berserkers gain a huge nerf somewhere in Palace or after, I have no clue. I do however know our zerker holds back in DPS in raids even with peaceful link on, rangeing 7-9k a Fight non specific group.. Me nearly the same way both being on single targets ..But if you have true claim, other then "random sayings" I have no problem backing you. Back with RoK fun, i did posts here itemizeing out Guards vs SKs, for atleast we should be consistantly beating that type of DPS out. Zerkers are highly to close. Makeing gear and skill more apparent. Right now as per beta dev post. SK's have a slight margin on Zerkers in a equal setting in DPS. Chances of one being completly equal is near impossible. Just to note, as for inspection or eqplayers, I do not ever stress a particular set of gear. I custom to what is needed for which time and which group and encounter.

LygerT

02-25-2009, 07:25 PM

i don't see the dps as a huge problem when both fighters are completely offensive but the survivability difference is still there in both offensive and defensive. i don't play an SK so obviously i can only compare what i see myself compared to how other players fare against mobs, in my role there is a survivability gap even when many SKs throw out that zerks have more defense, as i said before there is diminishing returns so as we both progress you will see zerkers hit caps before crusaders and then you have heals to assist on top, we also do have some very weak proc heals that no gear will buff because it is unmodifiable.i tried speccing fully defensive, in full defensive gear, with poorer aggro and there still was no contest versus SK and my DPS fell through the floor where he could still contribute much better. in fully offensive we were both about even BUT you could toss him in a mage group still and i bet he would have put me to shame.i know you can't balance everything, but as i said in all aspects that puts zerk at the bottom and not close to equal.more zerks have started cancelling their accounts and more people have taken up playing SK lately, even as of now i see more SKs playing than zerks even after your class was worse off than we were for much longer. we all want to fit in somewhere and stop the neglect, this is not about zerks wanting to keep something and threatening to quit over it, it is about about wanting to be needed or compared to before choices are made. we may have spurts at the beginning of an expansion where we do more dps until the gear upgrades bring other classes to our level and then our lack of survivability bumps us back down the desirability chain, we know what it is like to be gimped because we have been in the same boat as SKs have for a looong time.

AziBam

02-26-2009, 12:41 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote> we know what it is like to be gimped because we have been in the same boat as SKs have for a looong time.</blockquote>I guess maybe that's the one aspect of all this that chafes me the most (and probably many SKs.) Other than a few zerks, often yourself being one of them Lyger, there has been soooo much QQ from the zerk boards about how bad they have had it. That's just BS. Zerkers have been either the number one or the number two choice for tank since..erm...well...at least DOF. To even try to compare what zerks have been to what SKs were is ridiculous. Overall, they fell short of guards in RoK but that still left them in the number two spot and FAR from [Removed for Content]. Paladins were arguably a close 3rd but only because of their their hate skills. The only reason that zerkers cried was because they lost ground relative to guardians down from the zerker heyday before when guards were betraying over. RoK just made guards king of the world so it all shifted back the other way. Zerkers still beat the pants off of all the other plate classes, except guardians, even in their most "[Removed for Content]" days.As for now, since the nerfing of the STA line, which you enjoyed for many years btw, along with your other dps nerfs and the SK/crusader revamp you no longer completely and utterly dominate the fighter dps market. Maybe, MAYBE there is also a survivability difference that crusaders enjoy due to the one TSO AA that boosts our one-handed weap dps when a shield is equipped. Unless we can dual wield though it's our only option for DPSing. We'd have to [Removed for Content] ourselves with any two handers in the game and still fall short of your DW ability plus not be able to use our mythical. Yeah, that would rock. In truth, I'm not sure what the right answer to that question is. To some extent, it seems that it may be a moot point. None of us will be doing anything remotely close to tanking in our offensive stance once the revamp arrives. To tank we will all be forced into DEF stance which means ALL our dps will suck. Hah....eat my 1.2k parse Kurgan. (I can pick on him as he's in my guild) Oh, you dog...you hit 1.4k. /bah must work harder! Something we can all look forward to. If we are in a dps role, who cares if you are DW and we have a shield. Survivability is irrelevant in that scenario.Eesh...kind of turned into a wall of text. /looks at thread title /looks at his own wall of text/derail /decides to stop now

DMIstar

02-26-2009, 01:05 AM

Zerkers are Prone to haveing more Avoidence then SK's, This is shown Via Gear given and thier stat relations .. Shield Effectiveness was put in to damper the gap.. So far it does its job though SK's will still be takeing the DPS hit for Survivability hands down. which I never had a problem with in the first place. Tank ability Wise Our spells are more for Impact hate then anything else. Unless tanking in a heoric zone inwhich yah i have sets that don't gut me as much on tank mods and still keep decent DPS.on the question If you threw the tank in the Mage group would he do even more DPS ? I dont know, It all the depends on his gear and what he was being fed in the other group. But ill tell you if he was being fed a bunch of melee gains in the other group, and he did not have the gear to compensate for that loss, then he will be doing less and have less surviveability on that change over.The name of the game with this class is . the more DPS we want, the Less we can tank. and you realy have to do your homework on finding out whats going to give you that dps.. If you are going to sit there and focus to be a mage and have 1200 int, Cap in Spell dmg, and expect huge results. you are going to be one very unhappy sk cause our spells can't carry us. I realy wish it could, It would be a hell of a lot easier.. I have the set for it. But other then Levi bombs, its completley worthless... other then the wow factor of artificially boosting HT ;PAs for surviveability issue, I cant help you there .. SK's base helpful Abilities is Divine Aura (If they go out of thier way to get it) and Furor.. Some of us will go for the added ohh crap i Need heal "HT" aa's which is the biggest thing we have for healing other then Tap viens with several mobs involved only. you can parse our lifetaps all day long these where unaffected by the TSO changes and i Hold no thoughts on them ever being touched further. So me prefferably will carry several items that are not this class specific to do the job. example of which would be the LoN CH bottle.Same with aggro, you have free reign on number crunching these taunt numbers though you probably will be disapointed on that search. But to give a slight insight, I have never in EQ/EQ2 history relied on actual taunt spells to get the job done .. and have feared them ever since sony derived them back in EQ with terror/voice lines in which Clinging darkness and fear where my favorite buttons ... maybe with this taunt revamp that might actually change for once.

Windowlicker

02-26-2009, 09:17 AM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>hat's just BS. Zerkers have been either the number one or the number two choice for tank since..erm...well...at least DOF. To even try to compare what zerks have been to what SKs were is ridiculous. Overall, they fell short of guards in RoK but that still left them in the number two spot and FAR from [Removed for Content]. Paladins were arguably a close 3rd but only because of their their hate skills. The only reason that zerkers cried was because they lost ground relative to guardians down from the zerker heyday before when guards were betraying over. RoK just made guards king of the world so it all shifted back the other way. Zerkers still beat the pants off of all the other plate classes, except guardians, even in their most "[Removed for Content]" days.</blockquote>What game are you playing? Guard has been the number one choice for a plate tank since DoF, NOT Berserker. I should know, I'm actually one of the Berserkers that betrayed to Guard because of the problems. Do you really think people flocked to the Berserker class for the single-target nightmare that was RoK? Frankly, the only reason I even betrayed back was the need for the RW DPS buff in our raidforce.Maybe you whern't around since DoF, but the Berserker was never king of the heap. In fact, I hated grouping with Berserkers on my warlock due to the horrible sustained hate of the vast majority of them. The paladin, although not able to take hits as well was still superior with hate gain. I'll absolutely agree that the SK was in horrible shape through all of that, and needed some love. That still isn't justification for having your class beyond overpowered for any length of time. And that applies to any class in that boat.I'm sorry if your class deserves to get nerfed, and I'm sorry if it's coming regardless of how much collective kicking and screaming your profession manages to muster. But the fact remains, you have legendary SK's with less then perfect buffs tearing hate off fully raid-geared Guardians in stacked groups. It's reproducable, and frankly as an AE tank VS Single target it shouldn't be happening in the first place.That alone begs for change. And is a dramatic illustration of exactly where the problem is. Have you even looked at flames? In the SK forum you have people bragging about soloing Terror(The Epic x2). I can honestly tell you I've never heard of a single plate tank even capable of that.

DMIstar

02-26-2009, 09:55 AM

Just because the other class plate tanks are not "Bragging" about what they can do, We should automatically assume that they cannot do it ? no wait, i should auto forget what other people on my server can do with with classes just because it doesnt fit your small package of ideals, is Complete BS.I'd Love to see how you justify the class as being overpowered, or are you one of the ones which will say "Spells hit harder" and thats about it. Fact is, you have no dam clue what hell your talking about, nor do you care. Nor will you ever present anything other then random BS to [Removed for Content] and moan with.These Changes suck, but guess what ? They are across the board and not limited to this class. But your delusions of sks being completely nerfed .. is just that, Its not going happen.

devil_hunter

02-26-2009, 11:18 AM

we are so DAMNED SCREWED.thx to all who said that SK needed nerfs after the TSO add-on, SOe shouldn´t have brought out the TSO add-on and it wouldn´t have changed anything to us SK, NOTHING AT ALL.SK as an encounter tank who can hold the aggro of multiple targets gets his dmg from AE´s nerfed, give me a break u programmers. U HAVE NO IDEA WHAT UR DOINGSTOP NERFING US

AziBam

02-26-2009, 12:22 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>hat's just BS. Zerkers have been either the number one or the number two choice for tank since..erm...well...at least DOF. To even try to compare what zerks have been to what SKs were is ridiculous. Overall, they fell short of guards in RoK but that still left them in the number two spot and FAR from [Removed for Content]. Paladins were arguably a close 3rd but only because of their their hate skills. The only reason that zerkers cried was because they lost ground relative to guardians down from the zerker heyday before when guards were betraying over. RoK just made guards king of the world so it all shifted back the other way. Zerkers still beat the pants off of all the other plate classes, except guardians, even in their most "[Removed for Content]" days.</blockquote>What game are you playing? Guard has been the number one choice for a plate tank since DoF, NOT Berserker. I should know, I'm actually one of the Berserkers that betrayed to Guard because of the problems. Do you really think people flocked to the Berserker class for the single-target nightmare that was RoK? Frankly, the only reason I even betrayed back was the need for the RW DPS buff in our raidforce.Maybe you whern't around since DoF, but the Berserker was never king of the heap. In fact, I hated grouping with Berserkers on my warlock due to the horrible sustained hate of the vast majority of them. The paladin, although not able to take hits as well was still superior with hate gain. I'll absolutely agree that the SK was in horrible shape through all of that, and needed some love. That still isn't justification for having your class beyond overpowered for any length of time. And that applies to any class in that boat.I'm sorry if your class deserves to get nerfed, and I'm sorry if it's coming regardless of how much collective kicking and screaming your profession manages to muster. But the fact remains, you have legendary SK's with less then perfect buffs tearing hate off fully raid-geared Guardians in stacked groups. It's reproducable, and frankly as an AE tank VS Single target it shouldn't be happening in the first place.That alone begs for change. And is a dramatic illustration of exactly where the problem is. Have you even looked at flames? In the SK forum you have people bragging about soloing Terror(The Epic x2). I can honestly tell you I've never heard of a single plate tank even capable of that. </blockquote>Ok, I edited out a reply that would have been much more appropriate on flames than here. Yes, I was here at DoF and before you were for that matter based upon your join date. I'm playing the game without rose-colored glasses. KoS was when the flow tended to be from guards to zerks. EoF eroded that. Rok completely and utterly swamped that trend in the guardian direction. Apparently you were one of them. I can't and don't blame you for that. A friend of mine in guild chat last night commented that he didn't see it as being so much about who was in 1st or 2nd place of tanking but instead during RoK it was about the gap between 1st and 2,3,4 being so big. My response to the 2,3,4 part of his comment was that it may not seem that way when you are the one in 4th. No arguments that guards held that #1 spot. I'll also point out that I never said otherwise. Zerks were still the 2nd best overall tank in the game.Warlocks have loved paladins as long as they have been AE mages and paladins had amends. It's probably that type of issue that has caused the nerfing of amends though. If your zerks had crappy hate control then they were doing something wrong. That is one complaint I have NEVER heard about zerkers. Literally, on Tuesday this week we were in VP to get some mythical updates for newer members of the raid force and I commented that we should consider swapping over to our zerk OT for the groups of books that are just before Druusk just for hate purposes. Maybe I was just crabby that I died. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (That was on my illusionist btw.) Ok, the one exception to what I just said is what is currently on test server where #s show zerks as being at the bottom of the TPS heap for plate tanks. That's something that should be addressed. As for your reasoning on why SKs deserve to be nerfed back into submission...all I can say is, Terror would kick my tail! (darn censor made me remove the real word I chose) <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I would certainly never claim to be the best SK but I also don't completely suck. Oh, and I loathe those dps and solo threads on flames. Those types of threads have done nothing but provide ammunition to other classes screaming for nerfs ever since they started. (I don't mean that just for the SK ones either.)To summarize, do I claim zerks are currently at the top of the heap? Nope. Have they been at or at least [Removed for Content] near the top in the past? Yep. Is there any tiniest shred of legitimacy to a zerk saying they know about being being [Removed for Content] as they have been in the same boat as SKs were prior to the crusader revamp? Only if you want to kid yourself into believing it.

LygerT

02-26-2009, 03:55 PM

ok, i get it, you guys love your class, as much as i loved mine. but that doesn't give you the right to turn a blind eye and basically lie about the play level of your class.in every expansion past TSO, zerk was not a close choice for main tank and usually not even for offtank since most rolled with pallies.i have no idea why you want to continue spreading false information, it's just making you all look bad but i suspect that is how it is when you want to keep what you have.now i will go solo some current tier heroic zones... oh wait, no i won't, because i can't but you can. then i will go dps on some raid trash and push out close to caster DPS, oh wait i can't but you can. then maybe i will go offtank, well you got more immunities than i do and better AE hate than me there too. or maybe i will go main tank, welp, yea, i can tank better than most tanks for 25 seconds out of 2 and a half minutes but also bouncing on out of power at the same time.let's get real, you can't keep it.

AziBam

02-26-2009, 04:40 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>ok, i get it, you guys love your class, as much as i loved mine. but that doesn't give you the right to turn a blind eye and basically lie about the play level of your class.in every expansion past TSO, zerk was not a close choice for main tank and usually not even for offtank since most rolled with pallies.i have no idea why you want to continue spreading false information, it's just making you all look bad but i suspect that is how it is when you want to keep what you have.now i will go solo some current tier heroic zones... oh wait, no i won't, because i can't but you can. then i will go dps on some raid trash and push out close to caster DPS, oh wait i can't but you can. then maybe i will go offtank, well you got more immunities than i do and better AE hate than me there too. or maybe i will go main tank, welp, yea, i can tank better than most tanks for 25 seconds out of 2 and a half minutes but also bouncing on out of power at the same time.let's get real, you can't keep it.</blockquote>I don't like flame wars. Never have. Never will. I will just say that there are things in your statement(s) above that I do feel are inaccurate but I won't pursue them in order to get this unproductive portion of the thread stopped. (hopefully)I'll also say that if you are asking SKs to stop being defensive on the boards here then a good way to start would be to stop attacking us.Kind of too bad, Zerks and SKs have been on pretty good terms for a long time. Maybe that's why it feels like a bit of an "Et tu, Brute?" when you come to the SK boards (or elsewhere) and openly call for us to be nerfed and explain to us in the nicest of ways why we deserve it. Please find where zerkers are deficient and lobby to get that fixed. How about improved aggression skill? How about making your reactive heal or whatever it is work properly. If you cap MC too easily lobby for a way to get DA. Whatever you need. You would know far better than I do what your class needs (or any SK that doesn't play a zerker too.)

DMIstar

02-26-2009, 06:13 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i have no idea why you want to continue spreading false information, it's just making you all look bad but i suspect that is how it is when you want to keep what you have.</blockquote>When zerkers actually start posting information, then ill start listening. other then that keep your crying elsewhere cause its getting redundant and keeps showing more and more info on why you guys cant seem to come up with any answers to what your complaining about in the first place.

LygerT

02-26-2009, 09:45 PM

mmkay, just like so many SKs who put together such powerful facts when they were underpowered. everyone knew it, putting everything on paper is easy to manipulate to make any class look overpowering when the simple fact comes down to how well you can play with what you have to work with.don't get mad because you want to hold onto what you have with every shred of hope you can, in the end you will be the one crying when you do get nerfed, and it will happen whether you accept that or not is up to you.and it's not just zerkers that need balancing, currently as i see SKs tank as well as guardians in the endgame but you probably won't see it for a while yet. so you give zerks more survivability and gear to help proc damage, you have to do the same for guards as well, then you have DPS who will continue to wonder why a tank(s) is there on their heels on the parse.someday you will look up the definition of balance, if you really think we're balanced or that bumping other tanks up is right then all you're doing is contributing to why the game is failing. had they balanced things better in the first place this coversation probably would never have existed and the SKs would have been happy to have gotten some love, unfortunately now that you have it, the death grip to keep it is also in place.

DMIstar

02-26-2009, 11:14 PM

I m listening to you saying it.. and Pretty much only you. I am not "Seeing" It, I see me trying to trail our monk in guild, with my objective is on beating him, but I know i cannot fully do it. But yet Im not the only one with such goals in mind. Our zerker is comeing down near close to it. Why? because my fond belief that Auto attack is grossly overpowered across the board.But you do not want to hear any of that. There was even a beta post referring to it. cause casters tend to aggree as well as I and some others that its bs how far auto attack damage has scaled for fighters/scouts in whole.So Lets begin, Lets start of to combineing AoE dmg only Since this is such a popular subject. Since Paper you say is misconscrewed what handicap do you want to inforce to bring Zerker dps down ? Obvisouly We don't to hear the word Resist rate.. so we have to magically null that out as never been invented its a myth regardless what the parse rates says ..Spells: Insolence, Drestruction, Berserk onslaught, Intrusion, TurmoilTap arteries, Crimson Circle, Painful Aura, Grave Sacrament, Doom Rays .. Should i artifcially Pretend pestilence goes off for max rate at end of mobs life ? Yes, No ? Other factors to ignore .. Mana consumption SK 935 without pestilence compared to Zerkers 476 where the hell is the mana rates on insolence and turmoil ?!? This doesnt help you so we will pretend this game machanic doesn't exist. Devs must of been on crack to add Mana stipulations to the game.Lets check cast/recast rates SK's 4.13cast total 334 Recast Wait time .. Zerkers 4.71 cast total 573.80 recast wait time SO SK's have you beat casting times and recast times hands down hence why I am seeing average of 50-100 additional DPS rate on my end. (this was ignoreing Sk's two AoE dmg factors that requires STR instead of INT with doom rays and crimson circle on the initial hit so to make it artificially at 1k statage..) all abilities are taken at 1k STR/ 1K INTSo ill gladly go with balance. How about we lower the mana usage and take away them being able to resisted and nerf them below zerker ? these are none factors anyway so you should udoubtabley agree right ? As for tanking like a guard, i will be thrilled to hear what items in particular are doing this? furor is defenatly not enough. and before crawling to devouring mist, i have to say by the way did you know it was nerfed dureing TSO ?edit: I'm not mad, I'm far from it. this actually gives me something to further see, that I orignally just took for granted.and Fun factor thing if interested ! .. Mana Pool varience.. this is easy to deduce.. take your fellow SK and get his stats to 1kstr / 1k int and have your zerker at 1k str From their take totals and deduct equipment gains amounts.. and AA Gains amounts .. SK's is primarily racial traits and the TSO top line aa. and you can get the stunning results !

Nero

02-28-2009, 12:24 AM

GU51, especially nerfs of SK's dps, seem to go live if the trend continues.All fighters will become meat shield and taunt bot.All fighters will be good at aggro keep.If so, what is good and valid to compensate nerf of dps?Single-target aggro keep: All fighters will be good at it.Aoe aggro keep: All fighters will be good at it.The ability to increase the hate position: SK has only Grave Sacrament. Grave Sacrament is not enough to be on par with Guardian with Reinforcement, Paladin with Holy Ground, or Berserker with mythical(Insolence) from a viewpoint of emergency-response.Damage reduction of mythical weapon: Only SK lacks the damage reduction with mythical weapon.Survivability: SK has low HP, low mitigation, and low avoidance. Lifetaps can't compensate them especially in raid. Boosting lifetaps may be good. Making all spells lifetaps may be good. Increasing HP, mitigation, and avoidance simply may be good. I don't know what is best. But now that SK's dps is nerfed, revamp of survivability of SK is needed.Coping process with spike damage: Divine Aura and Shadowknight Furor are good.

MirageKnight

02-28-2009, 03:12 AM

Despite the fact, SK's dps getting nerf, I'm glad to see end to dps to hold aggro.Of course, I'm not totally glad on lower dps but considering SK's primary role, it might have come back to where it should be 4 years ago, when I have started playing SK at EQ2 start.I don't have any problem of holding aggro at moment but I have my mythical and so on. So might not be good example.But the bottom line is tanking is for SK's primary role, dps for offensive stance which SK can offer when not tanking.My concern here for hate change is as many have said, tanking with hitting taunt keys only to hold aggro like bot.Might have been better to spread hate to all spell/ca when defensive.Another concern of fighter's dps reduction is group/raid dps surely drops which affect progress (time it takes to finish zone) as well as some encounters which require to kill fast for success.So SK should now focus on what SK lacks for defensive and tanking rather than nerfed dps in my opinion.We still have some issue to concern for SK's tanking:Lack of emergency-responce due to mem wipe/blur for tossing hate position swap/increaseDue to change to SK's method of holding aggro and more specialized role as tank, SK's mythical weapon surely lack of any defensive part which is mainly lack of any damage reduction should be looked at.As for survivability, the fact that lifetaps can't compensate to scale to incomming damage still hurts as SK's tanking survivability.idea 1) since SK's characteristic of draining/weakening mob to get upperhand for tanking, debuffing mob's resist raise the tap's effectiveness.idea 2) like Nero's said, making all CA/spell to have tap part, when defensive.idea 3) raise damage part of tap, reduce heal part during offensive, increase heal part of tap, reduce damage part during defensive stance.Even with combining above suggested ideas, tap probably not compensate enough to high damage hitter from group mobs to raid mobs but usually in raid mob should be more debuffed than group situations which might get some help by idea 1.

Windowlicker

02-28-2009, 08:20 AM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Ok, I edited out a reply that would have been much more appropriate on flames than here. Yes, I was here at DoF and before you were for that matter based upon your join date. </blockquote></blockquote>Oh really? I've been here since before launch. Just because my two main characters were created in 2006, is no indication my account age dosn't span back to beta.So yes, it seems I've been here longer then you have. And frankly, you are totally off base.Edit: In fact, after a quick look at players it seems that none of your characters are really that well geared. For someone who's been around as long as you, you seem to be pretty behind. Maybe this is why your SK dosn't seem overpowered? Your precious SK seems to have worse gear then my Berserker, who's only been raiding for two weeks.Actually, all of your toons seem to have some pretty junky gear. Your Illusionist has some ok slots, but that's about it.That's kinda amusing, do you intentionally only play overpowered classes? What are you going to do when that illusionist is nerfed? You know that's coming too right?Anyways, nevermind. It's not worth arguing a point like this with someone who's obviously lacking the endgame gear this discussion is based on.

AziBam

02-28-2009, 12:34 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Ok, I edited out a reply that would have been much more appropriate on flames than here. Yes, I was here at DoF and before you were for that matter based upon your join date. </blockquote></blockquote>Oh really? I've been here since before launch. Just because my two main characters were created in 2006, is no indication my account age dosn't span back to beta.So yes, it seems I've been here longer then you have. And frankly, you are totally off base.Edit: In fact, after a quick look at players it seems that none of your characters are really that well geared. For someone who's been around as long as you, you seem to be pretty behind. Maybe this is why your SK dosn't seem overpowered? Your precious SK seems to have worse gear then my Berserker, who's only been raiding for two weeks.Actually, all of your toons seem to have some pretty junky gear. Your Illusionist has some ok slots, but that's about it.That's kinda amusing, do you intentionally only play overpowered classes? What are you going to do when that illusionist is nerfed? You know that's coming too right?Anyways, nevermind. It's not worth arguing a point like this with someone who's obviously lacking the endgame gear this discussion is based on.</blockquote>/looks at the hook of condecension presented by Zahne. /decides he is above itwill just say....If you'll look at the thread title you'll not see anything regarding endgame gear. Whether my SK wears T2 void armor (which is his primary set for tanking with greaves from SoH because /gasp...this toon rarely is involved with raiding) or wears MC leather from T4 (which he doesn't <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) has no bearing on this thread. For that matter, yourself and Lyger coming here to explain how we are OP and deserve to be nerfed have no bearing on this thread. Zerks have some legit concerns MOSTLY regarding what is on test right now that should be addressed. This thread isn't the best place for you to deal with those concerns. Nothing I or the other SKs have said would have even come up IF you and Lyger hadn't brought your "nerf SK" diatribe to us on our board in our thread. I also do not want to continue this conversation with you although for a different reason than yours. Mine doesn't have anything to do with trying to find a way to belittle you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway, best of luck to you on whatever character you play. (that isn't sarcasm either, btw.)

LygerT

02-28-2009, 01:32 PM

not every discussion is focused on what YOU want it to be on. i referred my discussion many many times to it being an endgame issue and even then not always just that, as ive also stated how you can solo yourself through zones and i see it in how much easier crusaders are to solo heal because, you know, they heal themself also.i think alot of people are going to be [Removed for Content] when it finally comes but don't say i didn't warn you or to think that it is just because i said something, many people are noticing the disparities but i just actually speak my mind unlike the many people who are scared at being "the bad guy". because overpowered classes make the game less fun for other classes, especially in the tank department because we are chosen based on how well our class can pull its weight on a raid.

DMIstar

02-28-2009, 05:20 PM

I think alot of zerkers are going to be [Removed for Content] once this thing goes live, Cause litterly instead of trying to fix thier issue, they decided the best route was to tail along threads and call Nerf. and thats not whats going to fix you.If end game is your issue. then that generally means items in the endgame are overpowering. So maybe the Avatar nerfs and just a begining of solving that.

Kiara

02-28-2009, 05:52 PM

Hey guys... It isn't about who's been around the longest or who has the best gear.Everyone is entitled to an opinion so please base your disagreement on the opinion and not the individual.Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Nero

03-03-2009, 10:24 AM

Now that SK's dps decreases, now that all fighters are same, that is meat shield and taunt bot, how can SK be compensated their dps?(1)survivabilitySK has low HP, low mitigation and low avoidance.Lifetap have compensated this weakness for a long time.But lifetap is not useful in raid because epic mobs can inflict over 10000 damage in one hit.More stronger a mob become, less useful lifetap become.Therefore, I think that survivability of SK needs to be boosted.For example, auto-lifetap which inflicts 3000 damage and heal 3000 HP per 3 seconds.Or for example, boosting Reaver. Changing 2% of SK's max HP to 10% of SK's max HP.Or increasing HP, mitigation and avoidance of SK simply to be on par with Guardian.(2)the ability to increase the hate position instantlySK has only Grave Sacrament.33% possibility to increase the hate position is not enough for emergency response.For example, changing 33% of Grave Sacrament to 100% like Reinforcement, Holy Ground or Insolence.(3)no damage reduction with mythicalOnly SK's mythical has no damage reduction.For example, adding auto-lifetap which inflicts 3000 damage and heal 3000 HP per 3 seconds to SK's mythical.Or for example, auto-heal which heals 5% of SK's max HP per 3 seconds.Now that all fighters become same, SK lacks survivability, the ability to increase the hate position instantly, and any defensive ability with mythical.

Blaidd

03-03-2009, 11:33 AM

Please just tell me the SK nerfs arnt down to the moaning zerkers have been making now that SK can keep up with them in the dps stakes. Zerkers have been outputting the same dps SK can now for ages so why they feel they can moan I dont know.SK were always the unwanted fighter class in raids and the recent change made them welcome again as they brought something to raids. Nerf them and watch them die again.I hope if its purly down to dps that zerkers get the same treatment as you cant say SK do too much dps without zerkers getting tarred with the same brush.

Nimbrithil

03-03-2009, 01:36 PM

You seem to be confused about the purpose of this game and all the classes besides scouts. The only reason any class exists except scout it to make the scout look better. If your not a ranger, swashie, brigand or assasinine, your concerns and complaints don't matter.Get used to it.

Nero

03-04-2009, 10:04 AM

Aeralik said that tank's primary role is keep alive and hold aggro.That is to say, fighters will be defensive in tanking, whether you like or not.OK, I will try to adapt the changes.But now that fighters must be defensive, Shadowknights lack some defensive and tanking ability.(1)survivabilitySK has only low HP, low mitigation, and low avoidance.Yeah, SK has lifetap. But lifetap is never useful in raid, in which epic mobs can inflict over 10000 damage easily to SK.(2)the ability to increase the hate position instantlySK has only Grave Sacrament, which increases SK's hate position in only 33%.SK doesn't have any ability like Reinforcement, Holy Ground or Insolence.(3)damage reduction with mythicalSK has no damage reduction with his mythical unlike other fighters.Devs, how will you fix this problem?If nothing is done, Shadowknights will become most unneeded, unwanted, and undesired class again.You revamped SK when TSO launched.But will you nerf SK again and turn SK back to unneeded and unwanted class again?Dps will not be a means to hold aggro.If you nerf SK and nullify fighters' dps, please compensate it.Please fix and revamp Shadowknights by taking into account the survivability, the ability to increase the hate position instantly and the damage reduction with mythical.How about permanent "reactive lifetap" self-buff like reactive heal?How about auto-lifetap which inflicts 1000 damage and heal 3000 HP per 3 seconds?How about auto-heal which heals 5% of max HP per 3 seconds?How about boosting Reaver by improving 2% of max HP to 10%?How about increasing HP, mitigation and avoidance of SK simply?I know that these ideas are imperfect.But I think that some fixes should be done for SK.

LygerT

03-04-2009, 04:25 PM

so you want more? you know SKs put out more hate than all other fighters minus pally with a good transfer i hope. most of the moaning is from heroic SKs who haven't yet seen the capabilities at the endgame level. sometimes you don't get something for what you lose.

Bruener

03-04-2009, 05:18 PM

Desiria

03-04-2009, 05:43 PM

I thought they were also getting rid of most if not all of the hate transfers as well. No matter the hate generation capabilities of a class, if you get 2-shot you aren't holding the mob.

Nuhus

03-04-2009, 06:18 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>so you want more? you know SKs put out more hate than all other fighters minus pally with a good transfer i hope. most of the moaning is from heroic SKs who haven't yet seen the capabilities at the endgame level. sometimes you don't get something for what you lose.</blockquote>I wouldn't say heroic, probably heroic/solo. While I do have a noticable decrease and never saw numbers anywhere close to those high parses, I think solo with worse off gear will be affected more. With the changes on test you do notice a pretty good difference between offensive/defensive damage taken from solo mobs even with t2 void armor.I haven't raided since KoS, before I leveled up my SK. I do recall the tank was generally in the high spots on the DPS chart due to all the buffs/gear they had. I was never the type that felt I had to go offensive and do all the damage I could, I almost always run in defensive even on live.(heroic instances)My main worry though, isn't so much the DPS I have. But, a lot of the TSO instances require a bit of DPS. I run with the group I do to have fun, not for the "optimal" setup. Some even have a DPS requirement, you can't do the zone without the DPS. What I'm worried about is how much it's going to hurt running TSO zones with people who play classses they enjoy. Which, it's fairly minimal before the changes, so I'm not really sure about after.I have no desire to raid again, my worry is the heroic zones.With all the changes coming that will affect DPS, fighter and beyond, I hope they do scale the mobs to adjust for it.I really wish with LU13 2.0 it was tied in whole to the next expansion. This mid expansion revamp is... Odd..

VaylonK

03-04-2009, 07:14 PM

After trying these changes out on test, not very happy at all. 10% decrease to spell damage and a decrease to melee. Sure the increase to taunts is neat but some mobs require a tank to put out a good amount of dps as well as the group. As the OT of my guild, having to wait to change stances is a real pain. Half the raid will be dead before you get into defensive. While in combat it's kinda hard to ask people to just stop attacking while I get into stance. The people I normally group and raid with do a average of 9-12k dps. Currently with mythical and TSO raid armor I hold aggro quite well with minimal transfer if any. In raid, same. On test, taunting like a mad man I can't keep aggro off the 12k wizzie or 10k assassin now. As someone noted in another forum, as dps increases on other classes what is the chance of our taunts increasing as well? Seriously? Being a offensive tank and all, I think we are all screwed with the upcoming changes. But then again we can only hope for the best. The devs know everything about all classes right? One other thing, if any of you have a dps class to put on test, watch your pretty hate meter. kind of gives that WoW feeling.

Nuhus

03-04-2009, 07:40 PM

<cite>VaylonK wrote:</cite><blockquote>After trying these changes out on test, not very happy at all. 10% decrease to spell damage and a decrease to melee. Sure the increase to taunts is neat but some mobs require a tank to put out a good amount of dps as well as the group. As the OT of my guild, having to wait to change stances is a real pain. Half the raid will be dead before you get into defensive. While in combat it's kinda hard to ask people to just stop attacking while I get into stance. The people I normally group and raid with do a average of 9-12k dps. Currently with mythical and TSO raid armor I hold aggro quite well with minimal transfer if any. In raid, same. On test, taunting like a mad man I can't keep aggro off the 12k wizzie or 10k assassin now. As someone noted in another forum, as dps increases on other classes what is the chance of our taunts increasing as well? Seriously? Being a offensive tank and all, I think we are all screwed with the upcoming changes. But then again we can only hope for the best. The devs know everything about all classes right? One other thing, if any of you have a dps class to put on test, watch your pretty hate meter. kind of gives that WoW feeling.</blockquote>If you are talking about the 10% decrease to spell damage in defensive they removed that.

LygerT

03-05-2009, 06:26 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>so you want more? you know SKs put out more hate than all other fighters minus pally with a good transfer i hope. most of the moaning is from heroic SKs who haven't yet seen the capabilities at the endgame level. sometimes you don't get something for what you lose.</blockquote>And SOE changing it so any fighter in defensive stance can put out enough hate to hold agro without transfers makes this worthwhile how?</blockquote>things keep getting worked back, as you can see. by the time it hits live, i suspect defensive tanking won't be easymode or at least it won't be for long. just hope they don't overdo it and leave it like that.

Enoe

03-10-2009, 08:52 AM

On side note what is wrong with zerkers mentality?They were complainig about guardians for a year, since TSO they switched hate target to SKs.Maybe instead of asking for nerf to all other fighters all the time, u sholud talk to devs about the class actually u play?

BMonkeeus

03-10-2009, 09:30 AM

Some people get more satisfaction from bichin and moaning about what others have rather then focus that energy at what changes could be made to benefit them. And some folks are just whiney-azz haters.

LygerT

03-14-2009, 04:35 PM

so all plate tanks should be overpowered? honestly it's not SKs but crusaders, however SKs do still have a slight edge over pallies. why do zerks constantly complain? because tanks require a resemblance of balance to be desired for raiding. in all honesty guardians have more room to complain than we do, but they still have the edge in defensive and thus are main tanks where zerks fight for the offtank spot and generally will be sidelined much more now for even less skilled players. sure i don't mind SKs getting their chance to have fun but eventually you should have to fight to keep your spot.anyways, that is my reasoning, you can accept it for what it is or you can be happy about being left overpowered for however long it may be and not care about the ones who also stood up for you pre-TSO. asking them to bump other plate tanks is just reinforcing the issue which is why they started devloping the tank changes on test as it is. all you are doing is further promoting those changes if not soon but later on by wanting everything in time. i will not ask for much more than minor changes, however even minor changes still leave crusaders ahead of the curve in utility now with more and more hybrid gear available all the time.believe it or not i do not like to argue when it is not necessary. i do not argue unless there is a noticable difference in choice between me and another tank for a given job. i really am tired of having to defend myself and my point of view even though i realize i open myself up to it by coming here. all i really want to do is enjoy the game much the same as you now have realized you can without bias.

DMIstar

03-14-2009, 05:46 PM

<cite>Enoe wrote:</cite><blockquote>On side note what is wrong with zerkers mentality?They were complainig about guardians for a year, since TSO they switched hate target to SKs.Maybe instead of asking for nerf to all other fighters all the time, u sholud talk to devs about the class actually u play?</blockquote>Exactly..Thankfully some have started trying and actually gone through stuff with thier class, instead of the constant /whine with <Insert Class Here> With no real backups.

LygerT

03-14-2009, 07:26 PM

you have no ****ing clue how much time i have spent and suggestions made to work on the zerk class, none at all. my suggestions have also included nerfing overpowering abilities such as the nerf to our heals in beta, which i could have easily kept quiet about and let go live as it was along with the few others who noticed it as well. it's obvious my idea of class balance differs from yours, holding out my tower shield, doing 15k dps and punching a button and tanking an epic, sure i could suggest changes to make that possible but that sure does sound easy.

DMIstar

03-14-2009, 08:26 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>you have no ****ing clue how much time i have spent and suggestions made to work on the zerk class, none at all. my suggestions have also included nerfing overpowering abilities such as the nerf to our heals in beta, which i could have easily kept quiet about and let go live as it was along with the few others who noticed it as well. it's obvious my idea of class balance differs from yours, holding out my tower shield, doing 15k dps and punching a button and tanking an epic, sure i could suggest changes to make that possible but that sure does sound easy.</blockquote>Ohh ive seen your posts, and in Beta. Don't get me wrong. thier the reasonings why I actually read them and take them into mind.But spouts like 15kdps and tanking ? Seriously this is a joke. This would be an attempt at trying to take a parse from EQ2flames and lieing straight out on how it was done.either that or takeing a lame as older zone, in which people should be just flat out wrecking on dps anyway.

Longfangz

03-15-2009, 11:01 AM

Lyger, with all due respect because you do sometimes have some insight on the zerker forums, please stop posting on the SK forums about a class you don't play. I play both classes, and your constant complaints here on the SK forums serve no purpose other than to annoy everyone who reads these posts and actually plays an SK.I know zerkers are broken, mine has been shelved for quite some time due to it. However your nerf rants are unwarranted considering your comparisions of a somewhat broken class(zerks) and a class that has been broken for 4 years now and only recently got some love (SK) and is about to be nerfed back to oblivion along with all the tanks if this LU goes live in it's current form. Heck, last time I checked only SK's were having actual dps abilities nerfed this LU, not zerkers, so shouldn't you be happy? Or are you just going to keep posting about how unfair it is that SK's actually have(had) a role for once...

BMonkeeus

03-15-2009, 02:00 PM

Well said Fangz, though I doubt it will stop this tool from spewing his hate. At this point I just scroll by his unproductive drivvle.

LygerT

03-15-2009, 02:14 PM

how are zerks broken?

Tiberuis

03-15-2009, 05:57 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>how are zerks broken?</blockquote>The Zerk in our raid guild does an excellent job tanking instances, off-tanking raids, and putting up very impressive DPS numbers on raid parses in a melee DPS group. Obviously his AOE DPS is quite strong for a tank.He does, however, have good gear, and he has his myth...and he is a good player, which is the most important factor. We all post opinions in these forums based on our own perspectives, and experiences. There is absolutely nothing broken about the zerker toon in our raid guild that I can see at all. Pretty powerful tanking toon I would say.And yes, I agree with the previous poster...if this Fighter re-vamp goes live, none of these opinions are going to mean a thing. We are all going to be taunt monkeys. Building your toon for some decent T3 dps while tanking will become a hopeless and meaningless excercise. Not such bad news for the Guardians...as usual...but very bad news for the Fighters that rolled a more Offensive oriented tank, like us, in the first place.