GU#51 Fighter Changes Discussion

[Grimmly]

<p><span style="color: #3366ff;">We have become popular with TSO content because we can tank zones AND provide DPS.  Now it would appear that they will nerf the ability to do BOTH simutaniously.  Am I understanding the purposed changes correctly?</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">I have read through the Brawler thread where DEV's have chimed in, but I (being a Zerker) did not want to derail the thread from it's original intent.  I do however want to discuss how these changes will effect game play for us Zerkers.  I have pulled all the relevant DEV comments from the Brawler thread.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Any thoughts from other Zerkers?</span></p><p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>The focus of part 2 is looking at the different ways players gain ( or lose ) hate and putting more emphasis on player responsibility.   You will likely see the numbers scale up on taunts a lot and hopefully fighters will start to look more at their threat per second while tanking and less so on the raw dps output we see now.</p></blockquote> <p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>With the changes offensive and defensive stances become more meaningful.  You will want to use offensive stance if you are in a dps mode and switch to defensive stance when you expect to tank.  We are also combining some of the fighter self buffs so that they are used in the correct combinations they were meant to be used rather than say a guardian running offensive stance while still having the bonuses of hold the line up.</p></blockquote> <p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p> The offensive stance is your dps oriented stance and improves damage but at the cost of hate gain and threat while defensive stances lower dps but increase your hate generation and threat. </p><p>Also, with the changes everyone will have a new blue aoe taunt tied to one of the blue aoe lines.</p></blockquote> <p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>The gu51 changes are going to make you choose a stance based on what you expect to be doing.  If you want to be high on the hate list so you can pick up aggro quickly then using defensive stance and riding just below 100% on the threat meter is probably better than using offensive stance.  Offensive stance is more for soloing or plowing through trash when you know you won't be tanking.</p></blockquote> <p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>The reductions in the new stances are pretty minor.  It never made sense to keep reducing them linearly which in some cases made lower level stances better.  Besides in a raid or group situation someone should be debuffing defense anyways which helps to make sure everyone hits better including the tank <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote>

[Kordran]

<p>Honestly, I think fighters should hold their fire here until after the changes have been published to test, and we get a real feel for how the new system works. Right now, Guardians, Berserkers and Paladins are all up in arms, but the problem is we have only vague generalizations from the developers as to what's going on. Once we have some concrete numbers in hand, then we can decide whether or not to pull out the torches and pitchforks.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>i've already said what i needed to say on the subject, which is:</p><ul><li>dps will DPS with or without a hate meter on trash and it will always be the tanks fault if they can't stay at the top of the hate list.</li><li>current hate for warriors is marginal most of the time, not as solid as it once was which is why we were given the additional tools to deal with it. but as many said, the time when we those tools are all on refresh and mobs still are peeling is the day we no longer are tanks, so a fine line is already in place and hopefully it won't be crossed.</li><li>keep in mind by actually being able to tank in defensive stance with more hate generation naturally, you will also be able to use more offensive gear for additional hate/dps when the time allows for it, so just because we still currently cannot tank and maintain aggro defensively does not mean the sky is falling.</li><li>given the last point, devs need to understand WHY we have the harder time tanking and holding aggro defensively, our ability to hit the mobs needs to be in line with other fighters in this area(maybe even moreso because of how weak our CAs are).</li></ul>

[Grimmly]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly, I think fighters should hold their fire here until after the changes have been published to test, and we get a real feel for how the new system works. Right now, Guardians, Berserkers and Paladins are all up in arms, but the problem is we have only vague generalizations from the developers as to what's going on. Once we have some concrete numbers in hand, then we can decide whether or not to pull out the torches and pitchforks.</p></blockquote><p>I was going to take this approach when I thought changes were coming with GU#52, but then I reread the post and realized it was GU#51.  I am not usually the "Chicken Little" type, but I was just curious if there WAS any additional information.</p><p>I know regardless of what is said now, until the changes hit the test server, they are just words.  I will be testing it once it hits.</p><p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i've already said what i needed to say on the subject, which is:</p><ul><li>dps will DPS with or without a hate meter on trash and it will always be the tanks fault if they can't stay at the top of the hate list.</li><li>current hate for warriors is marginal most of the time, not as solid as it once was which is why we were given the additional tools to deal with it. but as many said, the time when we those tools are all on refresh and mobs still are peeling is the day we no longer are tanks, so a fine line is already in place and hopefully it won't be crossed.</li><li>keep in mind by actually being able to tank in defensive stance with more hate generation naturally, you will also be able to use more offensive gear for additional hate/dps when the time allows for it, so just because we still currently cannot tank and maintain aggro defensively does not mean the sky is falling.</li><li>given the last point, devs need to understand WHY we have the harder time tanking and holding aggro defensively, our ability to hit the mobs needs to be in line with other fighters in this area(maybe even moreso because of how weak our CAs are).</li></ul></blockquote><p>My primary concern is that we just got some needed tanking changes with TSO and that the new changes might depreciate the upgrades we did get with TSO.  Zerkers have always used DPS to gain hate, but if they are reducing how much our DPS adds to our hate gain, then I am concerend that mobs WILL be peeled from us more than previously.</p><p>Kordran is right though....I guess I should wait to see the numbers.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Aeralik]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly, I think fighters should hold their fire here until after the changes have been published to test, and we get a real feel for how the new system works. Right now, Guardians, Berserkers and Paladins are all up in arms, but the problem is we have only vague generalizations from the developers as to what's going on. Once we have some concrete numbers in hand, then we can decide whether or not to pull out the torches and pitchforks.</p></blockquote><p>Yes people should wait until they see and <em>test </em>the changes.  I'm sure the patch notes will cause a lot of people to freak out but I think if you try them out they won't be as bad as you think.  So make sure to copy a character over to test and also get some or your non fighter friends to copy as well.  Actually testing the changes is pretty important and the best feedback we can get.</p>

[Grimmly]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly, I think fighters should hold their fire here until after the changes have been published to test, and we get a real feel for how the new system works. Right now, Guardians, Berserkers and Paladins are all up in arms, but the problem is we have only vague generalizations from the developers as to what's going on. Once we have some concrete numbers in hand, then we can decide whether or not to pull out the torches and pitchforks.</p></blockquote><p>Yes people should wait until they see and <em>test </em>the changes.  I'm sure the patch notes will cause a lot of people to freak out but I think if you try them out they won't be as bad as you think.  So make sure to copy a character over to test and also get some or your non fighter friends to copy as well.  Actually testing the changes is pretty important and the best feedback we can get.</p></blockquote><p>Thank you Aeralik for chiming in on this post as well.  I quoted you from the Brawler thread as I did not want to derail from that thread's intent (Brawler issues).  I know you cannot comment about when these changes will go live, but do we have a time frame of when they will hit TEST or how long we will have to test the changes?</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly, I think fighters should hold their fire here until after the changes have been published to test, and we get a real feel for how the new system works. Right now, Guardians, Berserkers and Paladins are all up in arms, but the problem is we have only vague generalizations from the developers as to what's going on. Once we have some concrete numbers in hand, then we can decide whether or not to pull out the torches and pitchforks.</p></blockquote><p>Yes people should wait until they see and <em>test </em>the changes.  I'm sure the patch notes will cause a lot of people to freak out but I think if you try them out they won't be as bad as you think.  So make sure to copy a character over to test and also get some or your non fighter friends to copy as well.  Actually testing the changes is pretty important and the best feedback we can get.</p></blockquote><p>Why? its a bit late when the stuffs already on test, SoE don't have a long history of changing things once it gets that far.</p><p>As a paladin, I currently struggle to stay alive but don't struggle for hate, and have 7 blue AoEs.  Small wonder we are wondering how we are going to be neutered into 2nd rate guardians as the other single target tank.</p>

[Raidyen]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly, I think fighters should hold their fire here until after the changes have been published to test, and we get a real feel for how the new system works. Right now, Guardians, Berserkers and Paladins are all up in arms, but the problem is we have only vague generalizations from the developers as to what's going on. Once we have some concrete numbers in hand, then we can decide whether or not to pull out the torches and pitchforks.</p></blockquote><p>Yes people should wait until they see and <em>test </em>the changes.  I'm sure the patch notes will cause a lot of people to freak out but I think if you try them out they won't be as bad as you think.  So make sure to copy a character over to test and also get some or your non fighter friends to copy as well.  Actually testing the changes is pretty important and the best feedback we can get.</p></blockquote><p>I HAVE to assume that whatever changes are made, they will be making tanks more sticky, not less.  Right now My guild group has to run with a pally and a gaurdian in order for the swash, warlock, and assasin to unload thier dps in AoE encounter situations.  Even then we find hate bouncing around.  Tanking in Defensive right now is just not an option for either of them.  D-stance is meaningless since right now tanks are completely dependant on DPS to hold agro.</p><p>I am curious if any changes are going to be made to the rogue offensive and defensive stances as well.  Not that any Rogue ever uses the defensive stance anyway.</p>

[Detor]

<p><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why? its a bit late when the stuffs already on test, SoE don't have a long history of changing things once it gets that far.</p><p>As a paladin, I currently struggle to stay alive but don't struggle for hate, and have 7 blue AoEs.  Small wonder we are wondering how we are going to be neutered into 2nd rate guardians as the other single target tank.</p></blockquote><p>Well, in an expansion where they return to multimob encounters it makes sense that paladins and guardians will fight tooth and nail to avoid being reduced to only holding aggro on single targets. (not to mention if you can hold aggro on multiple targets that translates to being able to hold aggro on 1 even easier since any AoE's you use will hit 1 target just as well as 3).</p><p>As for how it can be done - it wouldn't be that hard, if you're ready to weather the outcry.  Nerf Amends, nerf sigil of heroism, combine a few AOEs into one then remove several,  reduce AAs that improve AoE damage.  Based on other comments I'd say it's almost a 99% in odds that you can kiss Amends and Sigil of Heroism's current hate generation goodbye unfortunately.  Hopefully it's replaced by enough other abilities that you can compensate.</p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I HAVE to assume that whatever changes are made, they will be making tanks more sticky, not less.  Right now My guild group has to run with a pally and a gaurdian in order for the swash, warlock, and assasin to unload thier dps in AoE encounter situations.  Even then we find hate bouncing around.  Tanking in Defensive right now is just not an option for either of them.  D-stance is meaningless since right now tanks are completely dependant on DPS to hold agro.</p></blockquote><p>This is odd, because what I've found is that my 'zerker <em>can't</em> depend on DPS to hold aggro. I'd tested it in beta and seen it confirmed time and time again now that TSO is live: 1 point of damage is about 1/2 point of hate or less. My bread and butter for holding aggro is my taunts and things which proc hate directly. It's meant changes in my AA build (deemphasize damage, emphasize defense and hate), my gear (dump the stuff with offensive bonuses on it in favor of things with hate procs or +aggression or defensive bonuses) and my combat style (never dish out damage when you've got a taunt usable). Our paladin's similarly found that things like Sigil of Heroism have become indispensable, and the DPS classes are having to make heavier use of their dethreats (modulo being the target of a pally's Amends or something).</p><p>GU 52 has me tempted to burn the hard-drive space on a test server installation. I get the feeling that it's going to shift things even further in this direction, and woe is me if I'm not prepared to adjust.</p>

[Airbornee]

<p><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I HAVE to assume that whatever changes are made, they will be making tanks more sticky, not less.  Right now My guild group has to run with a pally and a gaurdian in order for the swash, warlock, and assasin to unload thier dps in AoE encounter situations.  Even then we find hate bouncing around.  Tanking in Defensive right now is just not an option for either of them.  D-stance is meaningless since right now tanks are completely dependant on DPS to hold agro.</p></blockquote><p>This is odd, because what I've found is that my 'zerker <em>can't</em> depend on DPS to hold aggro. I'd tested it in beta and seen it confirmed time and time again now that TSO is live: 1 point of damage is about 1/2 point of hate or less. My bread and butter for holding aggro is my taunts and things which proc hate directly. It's meant changes in my AA build (deemphasize damage, emphasize defense and hate), my gear (dump the stuff with offensive bonuses on it in favor of things with hate procs or +aggression or defensive bonuses) and my combat style (never dish out damage when you've got a taunt usable). Our paladin's similarly found that things like Sigil of Heroism have become indispensable, and the DPS classes are having to make heavier use of their dethreats (modulo being the target of a pally's Amends or something).</p><p>GU 52 has me tempted to burn the hard-drive space on a test server installation. I get the feeling that it's going to shift things even further in this direction, and woe is me if I'm not prepared to adjust.</p></blockquote><p>Let me stop you right here.  "and the DPS classes are having to make heavier use of their dethreats".  The scouts and mages in my guild do not need their dethreats.  Want to know why?  Because I use dps as a primary for holding aggro, things like taunts and threat procers are only boosters.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of having taunts actually mean something so I can control my own aggro, and hold it in full defensive better.  But we need to be able to use dps as a form of aggro as well, let the penalty remain survivability.  Let tanks choose their path, and give flavor and versatility to each class.  Otherwise everything gets too boring and noone wants to play.</p>

[Kirstie]

<p><cite>Grimmly@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly, I think fighters should hold their fire here until after the changes have been published to test, and we get a real feel for how the new system works. Right now, Guardians, Berserkers and Paladins are all up in arms, but the problem is we have only vague generalizations from the developers as to what's going on. Once we have some concrete numbers in hand, then we can decide whether or not to pull out the torches and pitchforks.</p></blockquote><p>Yes people should wait until they see and <em>test </em>the changes.  I'm sure the patch notes will cause a lot of people to freak out but I think if you try them out they won't be as bad as you think.  So make sure to copy a character over to test and also get some or your non fighter friends to copy as well.  Actually testing the changes is pretty important and the best feedback we can get.</p></blockquote><p>Thank you Aeralik for chiming in on this post as well.  I quoted you from the Brawler thread as I did not want to derail from that thread's intent (Brawler issues).  I know you cannot comment about when these changes will go live, but do we have a time frame of when they will hit TEST or how long we will have to test the changes?</p></blockquote><p>We're currently aiming for mid-next week to get the first round of stuff up on the Test servers and I believe it should be there a minimum of three weeks.</p><p>As the person who has been pushing the changes the developers make to the Test servers for the past couple years I can guaranttee that we change - a lot - of stuff based on the feedback we get from the Test servers!</p><p>- Kirstie</p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>Airbornee@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Let me stop you right here.  "and the DPS classes are having to make heavier use of their dethreats".  The scouts and mages in my guild do not need their dethreats.  Want to know why?  Because I use dps as a primary for holding aggro, things like taunts and threat procers are only boosters.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of having taunts actually mean something so I can control my own aggro, and hold it in full defensive better.  But we need to be able to use dps as a form of aggro as well, let the penalty remain survivability.  Let tanks choose their path, and give flavor and versatility to each class.  Otherwise everything gets too boring and noone wants to play.</p></blockquote><p>Possibly, but I've not seen that. Sure I can keep a fight under control using DPS, but between the need for survivability in the harder instances (unless you're running them in raid gear, which if you are I'm going to discount your experience just as I'd discount the experience of someone running overland solo content in a full group wearing RoK instance gear) and the fighter damage changes I simply have an easier time if I treat threat level (taunts, hate procs, etc.) as my primary concern and damage purely as an additional tool to help maintain it. Everything I've seen so far seems to point to the devs moving towards having the tank's role be keeping the mob's attention and staying alive, leaving the killing to the DPS guys. NB: this is one reason I'm looking forward to the hate meter or, better yet, actual hate numbers in the logs (if the devs include them). Right now I can only judge how easy or hard it is to hold aggro by a guesstimate based on how readily the DPS seems to pull aggro off me. With numbers or even just a meter we'll <em>know</em> how big a difference it makes if I go heavy on taunts vs. going for high damage.</p><p>As for making survivability the penalty, it probably won't work. To let a tank in full offensive mode survive, they'd have to tone the mobs down to the point where they wouldn't be any challenge at all for a tank in full defensive mode with a good healer and high DPS backing him up. And if they do that we'll hear no end of complaints that it's all too easy.</p>

[LygerT]

<p><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Airbornee@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Let me stop you right here.  "and the DPS classes are having to make heavier use of their dethreats".  The scouts and mages in my guild do not need their dethreats.  Want to know why?  Because I use dps as a primary for holding aggro, things like taunts and threat procers are only boosters.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of having taunts actually mean something so I can control my own aggro, and hold it in full defensive better.  But we need to be able to use dps as a form of aggro as well, let the penalty remain survivability.  Let tanks choose their path, and give flavor and versatility to each class.  Otherwise everything gets too boring and noone wants to play.</p></blockquote><p>Possibly, but I've not seen that. Sure I can keep a fight under control using DPS, but between the need for survivability in the harder instances (unless you're running them in raid gear, which if you are I'm going to discount your experience just as I'd discount the experience of someone running overland solo content in a full group wearing RoK instance gear) and the fighter damage changes I simply have an easier time if I treat threat level (taunts, hate procs, etc.) as my primary concern and damage purely as an additional tool to help maintain it. Everything I've seen so far seems to point to the devs moving towards having the tank's role be keeping the mob's attention and staying alive, leaving the killing to the DPS guys. NB: this is one reason I'm looking forward to the hate meter or, better yet, actual hate numbers in the logs (if the devs include them). Right now I can only judge how easy or hard it is to hold aggro by a guesstimate based on how readily the DPS seems to pull aggro off me. With numbers or even just a meter we'll <em>know</em> how big a difference it makes if I go heavy on taunts vs. going for high damage.</p><p>As for making survivability the penalty, it probably won't work. To let a tank in full offensive mode survive, they'd have to tone the mobs down to the point where they wouldn't be any challenge at all for a tank in full defensive mode with a good healer and high DPS backing him up. And if they do that we'll hear no end of complaints that it's all too easy.</p></blockquote><p>you are correct and a number of people often forget these things as they progress which can be issues for lesser geared tanks.</p>

[Bremer]

<p>I just hope they really considered every detail and it doesn't end with something like us in def stance unable to hit anything but air like it is now resulting in less Beserk procs resulting in less time Adrenaline works resulting in a heavy nerf to our tank ability. So next week we'll see if they had stuff like this in mind. (I just think of the change for items modifying spell cancelling the spell when unequipping the item and then the same thing happenend when hostile buffs disarmed items and they withdrew the change.)</p>

[Grimmly]

<p><cite>Kirstie wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>We're currently aiming for mid-next week to get the first round of stuff up on the Test servers and I believe it should be there a minimum of three weeks.<p>As the person who has been pushing the changes the developers make to the Test servers for the past couple years I can guaranttee that we change - a lot - of stuff based on the feedback we get from the Test servers!</p><p>- Kirstie</p></blockquote><p>Thank you for providing this information Kirstie.  I knew that the GU was targeted for late Jan or early Feb release, but I had no idea when changes would hit TEST. </p><p>Bottom line is any one who is interested in these changes (from a tank or transfer standpoint) should be sure to copy toon to test and find out for themselves how mechanics are going to work.  The more feedback we can provide, the better chance we have of not getting OVERLY nerfed. </p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just hope they really considered every detail and it doesn't end with something like us in def stance unable to hit anything but air like it is now resulting in less Beserk procs resulting in less time Adrenaline works resulting in a heavy nerf to our tank ability. So next week we'll see if they had stuff like this in mind. (I just think of the change for items modifying spell cancelling the spell when unequipping the item and then the same thing happenend when hostile buffs disarmed items and they withdrew the change.)</p></blockquote><p>I think they'll try. I know the TSO changes left my 'zerker in pretty good shape: a good tanking build still left me dealing good damage, just not the high damage I had before. The key I think is in not screaming about just the fact it's changed but in laying out exactly why the changes are bad in a way you can't compensate for, with concrete examples. For instance, I don't think the devs will pay much attention to complaints that 'zerkers can't do damage because reduced offensive skills mean they aren't hitting as much. But complaints about our abilities that generate hate when we hit a mob not generating hate correctly because our reduced offensive skills mean we <em>aren't</em> hitting the mobs, with parse numbers showing the low hit rate on those specific abilities, that might get more attention. We had this same thing happen during TSO beta, after all, with the proposed and then withdrawn change to reduce the effectiveness of outlevelled gear and abilities.</p>

[Elanjar]

<p>We'll see what happens when test hits, but I am of the opinion that offensive and defensive stance should follow their names. In that defensive should deal with greater defenses at dps penalty, while offensive should provide increased dps with defensive penalty. A tank should be able to generate equal hate in either stance. Leave it up to the player to decided how offensive or defensive to be. A tank should be able to hold a mob on itself no matter what stance and buffs its running.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>yes, the #1 issue i can envision with the changes is our hit rate in defensive, it will have to be addressed or prepare to hear alot of zerks saying "i can't hold aggro no matter what i do". perhaps give zerks a skill modifier or something even something hidden so as to not disrupt other fighters into thinking things are unbalanced in our favor, just to allow us to actually hit the mobs at a reasonable rate to keep up while tanking defensively since it will be required.</p>

[Morgue]

<p><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We'll see what happens when test hits, but I am of the opinion that offensive and defensive stance should follow their names. In that defensive should deal with greater defenses at dps penalty, while offensive should provide increased dps with defensive penalty. A tank should be able to generate equal hate in either stance. Leave it up to the player to decided how offensive or defensive to be. A tank should be able to hold a mob on itself no matter what stance and buffs its running.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with the idea that offensive and defensive stances should be just that.  however why is it believed in a sense that these stances you negatively effect you also?  While in defensive stance I see no need to include a neg to my weapon skills.  making My hit rating sucks doesnt to me show I am more defensive.   The need for tons of plus slashing skill items annoys me to no ends.  Just so I can hit a mob.  Those slots could be better used for plus defensive gear to go along with using a D stance.  But what do I know,  I have only played these games for entirely too long.   I simply think that the stance should buff our abilities and not weaker anything in return.  The stances should simply improve.  Ex.  In D stance improve my mit/avoid/agression/hate generation no reason to add a penalty. </p><p>I am only curious if I am alone in the idea that a stance should improve on you skills, if the improvement is done properly why would you even need to include a penalty?</p>

[Morgue]

<p>double posted</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>As long as I can hold the same, or better, aggro than I am now, I don't care.</p><p>They really should rename Offense and Defense stances to "DPS stance" and "Tanking stance". You go in DPS stance if you want to DPS, and you go in Tank stance if you want to tank. If you're DPSing it should be impractical to tank, and if you're tanking you should have reduced DPS, but significantly improved hate generation to compensate for the reduced DPS. And aggro wise, Tanking stance should always generate more hate than DPS stance.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>it has seemingly always been part of fighter progression to tie negatives to positives, examples are temporary stances and temporary buffs, they basically all follow this rule and have since the beginning. it is just now that it is going to be a determining factor to whether we will be able to do our job when required. this is not simply a berserker issue but one both warriors will face, except for berserkers it is and has always been more pronounced because we have no alternative way to actually hit the mob, even temporarily, the raid set bonus helps a small amount temporarily but it still is a bandaid on a wound that needs to get fixed with all of the upcoming changes.</p><p>for example, scouts DPS more evenly accross the board regardless of whether they are solo, grouping or raiding. fighters rely on auto attack, which scales to how often you are able to hit the mob with those auto attacks. now this borders again on DPS stance but i still am going to assume it will still play a major role in our ability to maintain aggro defensively. to how this will be overcome without making melee have 100% hit rates again, i am not sure. basically the only way i can imagine it to compensate is by the following: even if a swing misses, you still generate hate, even if a CA misses, you still generate hate. special hate snapping and force targets missing: should not happen if aggro is going to be so dependent. what i want to see is some retention to playing by a players skill, not playing by a RNG putting me in the toilet for a period of time, wiping my party and people questioning my ability.</p><p>the possibilities of how to accomplish these upcoming changes are mind numbing, but which is going to yield a result that will keep tanks from having aggro on lockdown, balance this to heroic tanks in mastercrafted gear AND retain full functionality as a survivable tank? it is a game of chess.. except instead of 32 pieces you have 10,000.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the possibilities of how to accomplish these upcoming changes are mind numbing, but which is going to yield a result that will keep tanks from having aggro on lockdown, balance this to heroic tanks in mastercrafted gear AND retain full functionality as a survivable tank? it is a game of chess.. except instead of 32 pieces you have 10,000.</p></blockquote><p>At level 80 at least, I would fully hope no tank is tanking TSO instances in mastercrafted. TSO instances should be balanced around having a full set of void shard armor (since it's relatively easy to get).</p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>At level 80 at least, I would fully hope no tank is tanking TSO instances in mastercrafted. TSO instances should be balanced around having a full set of void shard armor (since it's relatively easy to get).</p></blockquote><p>I don't think it is. To get void shard armor you have to run TSO instances, it'd be a bit of a catch-22 if to run TSO instances you had to have already gotten void shard armor. What I found is that if you've a decent set of RoK legendary gear (quested pieces and instance drops, especially the class set gear), you can run the first tier of TSO instances at least far enough to finish the mission quests and get the shard chest.</p>

[digitalblasphemy]

<p>I'm still pensive about these changes.  It's all good and dandy if we have more tools to generate hate, but the whole reason fighters tank in offensive, is so that we can hit the mob, and not suffer continual miss hits.  It doesn't matter how many snap agro tools we have gained, if we cannot hit the mob, we will not maintain any sustainable agro generation on the mob.</p><p>The fact no SOE person has realized this, gives me no comfort in these changes.  All I personally think is going to happen is they are going to merge some of our buffs, like putting HTL on the defensive stance, and probably put more negative penalties on our offensive stance.  At the end of the day, not being able to tank in O stance, is going to mean a loss of 78 melee skill points.  The melee skills need to not be tied with our O and D stances.  Remove them, and place them on another buff.  Then tanking in Defensive might mean something.  As right now, all they have mentioned is agro via taunts, and TPS.  Our melee dmg, and the most important factor in holding agro, is going to suffer to the point of insanity.  Even if our taunts are upgraded, the miss hits and huge loss in melee dmg is going destroy this class.  And we have faught hard, and held onto the hope that we would get some attention.  Finally with this expansion we got some love, but it's going to be short lived.</p>

[Kaarim]

<p>Was just pondering what if you just don't buff in either defensive stance or offensive stance? lol</p><p>I know it could probably counter the defensive penalties, the offensive penalties won't be there but you lose probably +skills...but in a raid setting your +skills are high up anyways right? Hmm.... Would tanking with either stance be more effectively balanced or am I just over thinking this? lol.</p>

[KachikoJa]

<p>I know I'm not a zerker... heck, I can't even tolerate tanking... in any form... but my significant other... is a one toon kind of guy... we've been playing since release...</p><p>And he mainly sees the zerker class as it was originally presented at release... and offensive tank... so, I guess... my only concern is... if an offensive tank can't tank in offensive stance... what does that mean? Sure, maybe he'll be able to tank... but I can guarantee I'll never get him to log in again if he thinks there's no differentiation between himself and a guardian... (which he tried levelling one a long time ago... and couldn't stand it)</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>At level 80 at least, I would fully hope no tank is tanking TSO instances in mastercrafted. TSO instances should be balanced around having a full set of void shard armor (since it's relatively easy to get).</p></blockquote><p>I don't think it is. To get void shard armor you have to run TSO instances, it'd be a bit of a catch-22 if to run TSO instances you had to have already gotten void shard armor</p></blockquote><p>I don't see a group with full mastercrafted accomplishing much in TSO zones. Even if you did just the quests in Kunark, you will have a few pieces that replace mastercrafted. To do well in TSO, you'll need to run VoES, CoA, and MC a few times to gear up so you have a mix of mastercrafted and legendary. Folks should also take down the overland named mobs in Kunark a few times, and do a few runs thru Sebilis. If you get lucky and get some excellent drops, you'll be ready to dip into TSO.</p><p>Although the devs keep moving the goalposts and shrinking what percent of TSO is doable by casual groups, there is still Deep Forge, Najena's Hollow, and Scion of Ice. As long as Najena's Hollow void shard quest is the Jailer one, then it's pretty easy to do. Each named has a strategy which makes it possible to kill them with a casual group. Even Befallen: Cavern of the Afflicted if you have an AoE tank and some group members with AoE damage (warlock, wizzy, swashy) you can do the Risen and Disturbed void shard missions since you just have to kill trash.</p><p>I know it is frustrating to not clear a zone, but gearing up with void shards should be your #1 priority. Don't fall into the trap of trying to pick the Daily Double and beating your head against a wall for 3 hours trying to beat one dungeon to get a couple of shards. You can do the 4 easiest Void Shard zones and get 6-8 shards in that same 3 hours and come with with a lot less anger and hurt feelings!!</p><p>I'm not sure why the easiest dungeon -- Deep Forge -- keeps getting scaled up though. I feel sorry for very casual groups who cannot clear ANY dungeon in TSO but that is the current situation. They have scaled up the difficulty of Overseer, and Doomsmith has too many hitpoints. Deep Forge is SUPPOSED to be easy, yet SoE devs keep tuning it up for some reason, as if the end of the world will come if every TSO dungeon is not hardcore.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm not sure why the easiest dungeon -- Deep Forge -- keeps getting scaled up though. I feel sorry for very casual groups who cannot clear ANY dungeon in TSO but that is the current situation. They have scaled up the difficulty of Overseer, and Doomsmith has too many hitpoints. Deep Forge is SUPPOSED to be easy, yet SoE devs keep tuning it up for some reason, as if the end of the world will come if every TSO dungeon is not hardcore.</p></blockquote><p>This is OT, but I've seen you write about this a few times, and honestly, I've just not seen any noticeable increase in difficulty for the named in Deep Forge. I suspect that what you've run into is the random number generator; both Doomsmith and Kaern can be nasty if they score criticals on your tank; a couple of heavy hits back-to-back can floor an indequately geared tank, but it has <em>always</em> been that way since release.</p>

[Hardain]

<p>If full group of lvl80's can't clear any of the new zones they just plain SUCK. No offense, but they are not that hard unless the group setup lacks dps, buffs, heals and most important, skill.</p>

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p><cite>Hardain@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If full group of lvl80's can't clear any of the new zones they just plain SUCK. No offense, but they are not that hard unless the group setup lacks dps, buffs, heals and most important, skill.</p></blockquote><p>Actually.. gear should apply to that list as well.. U cant really perform as well with a PUG with a mix of treasured/legendary/fabled gear in TSO instances..</p><p>I do alot of PuG's to the TSO instances, and we run around with 8-14k zw dps.. I dont find myself doing Varsoon with that type of group.. Not even the final 2 nameds in Ravenscale for that matter.</p><p>When ur lowest dps do 7k+ and the highest do 12k+ tho u can easily bypass alot of the troubles your normal PuG's cant.</p><p>I wouldnt say they suck just because they cant parse above 4k.. Thats usually for those in raid gear, or the hc casuals like myself.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I do agree that the new instances require some sort of of skill to complete tho.. and not to mention focus.. But it is alot easier doing the instances with a 20k+ dps group than an 8k one.. :p</p>

[Nero]

<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Honestly, I think fighters should hold their fire here until after the changes have been published to test, and we get a real feel for how the new system works. Right now, Guardians, Berserkers and Paladins are all up in arms, but the problem is we have only vague generalizations from the developers as to what's going on. Once we have some concrete numbers in hand, then we can decide whether or not to pull out the torches and pitchforks.</p></blockquote><p>Yes people should wait until they see and <em>test </em>the changes.  I'm sure the patch notes will cause a lot of people to freak out but I think if you try them out they won't be as bad as you think.  So make sure to copy a character over to test and also get some or your non fighter friends to copy as well.  Actually testing the changes is pretty important and the best feedback we can get.</p></blockquote><p>Very basic doubt.Will we fighters be excited by this changes?We are FIGHTERs.Not only meatwall, but also fighting men.I want the feeling that I'm fighting.Will the changes, which will connect particular buffs with defensive stance, be more exciting for us, who want to not only tank, but also appease our combat instinct?To be honest, I'm afraid that ShadowKnight will be nerfed by this changes.</p>

[Faelgalad]

<p>Every Paladin I talked with on Innovation and myself are nervous about changes to Amend.</p><p>All 5x other Tanks out-dps an Paladin, so DPS in it's current state is no Aggro-Options.</p><p>We have no passiv/active aggro buff like Guards/Zerks.</p><p>Without real superior aggro managment, Paladin is messed up, as Guards are vastly superior in Defense and a good stake in DPS, as Guards can do more things in offensive stance then other Tanks.</p><p>A nice solution would be more interactivity between Tanks.</p><p>Like raidwide Aggro-Transfers with Tank to Tank only.</p><p>For the Paladin+ Swash/Warlock = better Group Aggro then Zerk/SK.</p><p>The Groupaggro-Tank is an dead-end evolution. Not enough Group-Named encounter, Groups in there to make it an niche. An alternative is not no nerf, instead to increase. Zerks and SK with transfers for warlock/swash only, with an high deaggro buff for Guards for Warlock/Swash. I go this specific, as multi-mob aggro is 90% of the time an issue with warlock and swash.</p><p>As long as Dungeons don't change intelligent with the Tank of group, we need quite similar abilities.</p><p>It would be nice to revamp Zerks to Two-Handed weapons including revamp of two-handed weapons and a viable defensive mechanism for two-handed weapons. With Zerks giving the ability to Tank with two-handed and giving SK superior offensive power with a two-handed. Solution for mystical weapons should be an clicki effect to morph them from two-handed to one-handed. Alternative a defensive solution for dual weapon fighting and giving SK's dual weapons. An SK with Sword + whip/flail would be stylish.A third two-handed stance would be nice (including two-handed revamp)</p><p>Generelly, more equality and more versality then the sword & board.</p>

[LygerT]

<p><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Hardain@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If full group of lvl80's can't clear any of the new zones they just plain SUCK. No offense, but they are not that hard unless the group setup lacks dps, buffs, heals and most important, skill.</p></blockquote><p>Actually.. gear should apply to that list as well.. U cant really perform as well with a PUG with a mix of treasured/legendary/fabled gear in TSO instances..</p><p>I do alot of PuG's to the TSO instances, and we run around with 8-14k zw dps.. I dont find myself doing Varsoon with that type of group.. Not even the final 2 nameds in Ravenscale for that matter.</p><p>When ur lowest dps do 7k+ and the highest do 12k+ tho u can easily bypass alot of the troubles your normal PuG's cant.</p><p>I wouldnt say they suck just because they cant parse above 4k.. Thats usually for those in raid gear, or the hc casuals like myself.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I do agree that the new instances require some sort of of skill to complete tho.. and not to mention focus.. But it is alot easier doing the instances with a 20k+ dps group than an 8k one.. :p</p></blockquote><p>i think he meant a group not being able to complete any TSO zone whatsoever. of course it's easy to be a fabled raid tank and do a pug, it's not so easy to be a mythicalled wizard in a pug with a mastercrafted tank and no transfers because the group leader is a knucklehead.</p>

[Hardain]

<p>Yea, ofcourse with treasured gear you ain't gonna do other than wipe in places like Outer Stronghold, but zones like Scion ect are quite easy if you use common sense and have better than handcrafted gear. Gradually upgrade your gear and advance to tougher places.</p>

[Elanjar]

<p>mmm looks like its gotten slightly off the GU51 topic</p><p>anyway i just wanted to add,  the hate gain in the stance better be D*MN good since it appears all transfers and such are being removed. So now when theres a hate problem you really pretty much can just blame the tank. so much for group mentality.</p>

[Hylas60]

<p>This is how i hope they do it and if so i think all Fighters would be happy...</p><p>Hope Agro in Offensive Stance stays the same pretty solid but can be shaky at times depending on if the Assn/Brig wants to be dumb....</p><p>But in Defensive your Agro is Solid and nothings ripping it off you... Granted your dps goes way down your hit rates go way down but who cares if your Solid on the agro.</p><p>As a Zerk fighting in Offensive except Tanking the hardest named is all we know...</p><p>As a MT Zerk i go Offensive and DW Trash and relative easy named because i can but im hoping i can still do that after changes on easy named and not have agro bouncing all over the place.</p><p>because itll basically kill Offensive Stance for us except for when we are soloing which will blow because its nice to help the Raid burn the mob down.  </p><p>but i guess itll be just as nice knowing your Agro is sick being in Defensive and people wont have to hold back on hard named when your Defensive because the mobs not going anywhere except stuck on you.</p>

[Hardain]

<p>Sounds like you want the Def stance to have permanent Reinforcement added to it, which would totally suck. Nothing could rip aggro? That's just dumb, hit auto attack and go afk for 5-10 mins? It's allready very easy to keep aggro in a good group/raid, making it noticeably easier would kill all the fun.</p>

[Hylas60]

<p>then i guess we will still have to rely on putting out as much DPS as possible while in Defensive then..... Tanks have to constantly Juggle Survivabilty and holding Agro on raids... you give up some survivability to DPS to hold agro but if u give up to much your butt hits the floor.... Tanks should never be looking at Chain or Leather pieces as a means to hold agro and it has happens and im sure still happens.... we should be as Hardcore tank as possible to stand at the Front lines taking the beating never having to lessen our survivability on something thats trying to kill us.</p><p>we are built to be Meat shields meaning stand there hold agro,  live and position the mobs in the best spot for your party.  the 2.0 revamp is allowing tanks to be defensive and hold agro which is how it always shouldve been.  </p><p>How lame is it that TANKS are forced to be in offensive just to keep agro its the way its always been so its hammered into our little brainwashed heads but honestly we should go into offensive as often as scouts go into Defensive..  </p><p>dont get me wrong i love dpsing and such but only because i have to... my Zerk is built like a swash im 98% crit in raids 80% DA or so and DWing hitting everything in front of me,   sure its fun on trash but when its time to go up against a Heavy hitter it sure sucks to be in defensive worried the entire time the Assn whose been parsing 15k on trash is gonna try to do the same on the named take it from me and then run it into raid on a out joust call and AE the raid.</p><p>you can say all you want the Assn should know better but i dont think youll find a single tank that hasnt had this happen</p>

[Jrral]

<p><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>mmm looks like its gotten slightly off the GU51 topic</p><p>anyway i just wanted to add, the hate gain in the stance better be D*MN good since it appears all transfers and such are being removed. So now when theres a hate problem you really pretty much can just blame the tank. so much for group mentality.</p></blockquote><p>From everything I've heard, transfers are <em>not</em> being removed. My impression is that they're being adjusted so that transfers alone won't be enough to insure a tank keeps aggro. I'm expecting the pattern started with TSO to continue: deaggros and taunts and threat abilities will be improved (possibly defensive stances will be adjusted too to improve hate gain) so that through proper use of taunts and defensive stance (by tanks) and deaggros/dethreats (by the DPS classes) the tank can maintain solid aggro but if either or both ignore their own personal aggro-control abilities then just passive transfers won't be enough. Which will be far from the end of the world, good tanks and DPS will adapt and use the abilities they need to use to do their jobs and the group will proceed with killing the mobs just like always.</p><p>We'll know more when the changes hit Test and we can try them out. I've got the test client set up and I'll be copying my main over once the changes hit.</p>

[Mephistophelese]

<p>looks not too bad yet. looks like they just added hate to everything and took away transfers for the most part. i do love the showing hate output in combat window now. if i understand it right looks like aoe's won;t pull mobs  away from tank  that there not directly tanking. not really been much of a problem with zerk being an aoe tank but still good, also taking away our advantage over guards though <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. wander if we have anythihng over them at all any more</p>