Amount of IMMUNE responces from TSO named is getting ridiculous

[Xethren]

<p>Went with a group to Deep Forge tonight to help friends with last named, and I felt i didnt add anything accept mana regen.</p><p>Almost every since spell i used on Firelord Kaern he was immune to. This is ridiculous. I mean what is the point of coercers anymore if all our spells are useless on named in these TSO dungeons. Only my four measly damage spells did anything.</p><p>Honestly, who is going to try to solo these dungeons? Why are the devs slapping immune tags on everything?</p><p>Needless to say this mob repeatedly wiped our group left and right, and our tank can do any kunark dungeon easy. Yes there needs to be challenge but this is insane. Im starting to regret buying this expansion</p>

[Estean1]

<p>I am by no means a sony fanboi but I do find this post kind of silly.  I have a coercer myself, have ran that zone countless times because its the easiest. </p><p>They made the mob immune to stuns and stifles for obvious reasons. A good coercer would make that fight trivial at best if stuns landed. They want you guys to run in a circle around to avoid that elemental aoe he places on the ground. The mob is simple if you follow what you are supposed to do.. And no I don't have my mythical.  A weak tank, weak healers or simply melee getting in his little aoe will make him difficult. The mob not being able to be stunned is not. </p><p>To say you can only land 4 spells?  Thats just plain false. Even with all of a coercers stuns and stifles immune you can still parse 2-3k without your mythical or being raid geared out. I don't have a single piece of raid gear on my coercer and I do it.  is 2-3k dps worthless?  I don't think so..</p><p>Even if you are only looking to the easier instances there are plenty of mobs, even bosses, that you can stun, stifle, thought snap, etc into oblivion. </p><p>I do think they might have overdone the immunities on some raid mobs and some of the more difficult content but the forge?  Nope.  It sounds to me you are just upset your group got its butt handed to it and you couldn't save the day.</p>

[Jurmoon]

<p>While I don't agree with the entire post, I do see where you are coming from.  Coercers are feeling some pain this expansion.  With nearly everything immune to control effects,  crappy void armor, and lesser buffs than the illusionist, it is a giant step backwards. </p><p>I also agree that the average degree of difficulty on the TSO dungeons is set too high.   I have already seen people leaving the game, and I expect to see more.   The problem, as I see it,  is that enough solo / small group content was not provided.  Not only for those that prefer to play that way, but also as a means to gain achievement points and/or gear that will make the instances more accessible for those without raid gear.   Also something to do during the sometime long LFG sessions.</p><p>As for Deep Forge, with the above strat the boss is doable with almost any group, provided you have enough DPS. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Aremban]

<p>With the right AAs, Coercers have the oppurtunity to stun lock any encounter. All these zones would be pointless if they were all stunnable. Also except for your straight stun spells, the other stun/daze/stifle spells still cause damage. You have at least 7 damage spells you could've been using. If you felt like you didn't add anything, it's your fault.</p>

[EQ2Magroo]

<p>The devs have implemented stuff like immunity to certain spells in TSO for a good reason. It adds a challenge to the encounter. You have to use a strategy and work as a team to resolve.</p><p>If you can't/won't work out the strategy and instead just try the traditional tank & spank, then you are the ones who are going to get spanked.</p><p>Look at the layout of the room. Look at what the mob's attacks are. How do you think you can overcome this using skill and tactics ? This doesn't just apply to this mob, but to all TSO encounters.</p><p>The answer for this mob is pretty straight forward, so here goes:</p><p>Room layout: The room is basically a circuit. The walkway is a complete circle.</p><p>Mob attacks: The mob deals a lot of damage if you're standing behind him.</p><p>The trick would seem to be to stay in front of the mob to avoid the damage. Of course he chases you so you'll have to run backwards to keep facing him whilst trying to hit him.</p><p>Unfortunately this means you'll end up walking into a wall of falling off a cliff. Unless the devs made it easy by, I don't know, giving you a circular race track you can run around or something...</p>

[Pins]

<p>Basically they just want to marginalize Enchanters into a buff/dps class that requires little to no thought.  That is why all these mobs are immune.</p>

[Xethren]

<p>I talked with the tank after everyone was done cooling off, and yes we didnt have enough DPS, and the group makeup he said was not what it should have been.</p><p>Sorry for the rant that was not correct. I still feel that the devs are going overboard on the immunities though.</p><p><em>EQ2Magroo- <span >The devs have implemented stuff like immunity to certain spells in TSO for a good reason. It adds a challenge to the encounter. You have to use a strategy and work as a team to resolve.</span></em></p><p>How is making half my spells useless in these dungeons add challenge? Mez/stun/root immunities for named i can understand, as a lot of the stuff in kunark was that way, but for the other stuff? It doesnt make sense.</p>

[zaneluke]

<p><cite>Xethren@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Went with a group to Deep Forge tonight to help friends with last named, and I felt i didnt add anything accept mana regen.</p><p>Almost every since spell i used on Firelord Kaern he was immune to. This is ridiculous. I mean what is the point of coercers anymore if all our spells are useless on named in these TSO dungeons. Only my four measly damage spells did anything.</p><p>Honestly, who is going to try to solo these dungeons? Why are the devs slapping immune tags on everything?</p><p>Needless to say this mob repeatedly wiped our group left and right, and our tank can do any kunark dungeon easy. Yes there needs to be challenge but this is insane. Im starting to regret buying this expansion</p></blockquote><p>Even with sub standard dps you can run the mob around the race track twice. Run the mob on the outside first then inside when you pass his spawn point to avoid the gifts he leaves in his wake. Get spawned in to lava? run out and run out fast and get back in to the fight.</p><p>This zone is easier than madiens, so if your tank and crew can run madiens........ all you lack is strat. Just like two of the mobs in madiens you have to think about it and give it a go.</p><p>BTW i do not know a single person who has left because of this expansion, as a matter of fact i know scores who have come back because of it, and what it has to offer.</p><p>Ran abbey yesterday with an SK,2 serkers,mystic,inquisitor and an Illy. only 2 deaths.</p>

[Beggon]

<p>The only spell that does not have a dmg component is the encounter stun. Revel has an outstanding post on flames about spell order that, while focused on raid mobs, is really no different as stun/stifle immune named.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>zaneluke wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Even with sub standard dps you can run the mob around the race track twice. Run the mob on the outside first then inside when you pass his spawn point to avoid the gifts he leaves in his wake. Get spawned in to lava? run out and run out fast and get back in to the fight.</blockquote><p>Unless they've recently changed something (I haven't done DF in a couple of weeks), you can't "run the mob around the race track twice" because the lava bombs don't dissapate. If you can't kill him the first go around, your tank will be dragging your group right into them. That said, even a low DPS group should be able to kill him before you make a full loop; if not, it means that your tank is either constantly running backwards (bad), or moving back too far each time a bomb is dropped (bad).</p><p>The practical answer to the restrictions on enchanters in these instances is a) to prevent players from short-circuiting the scripts and trivializing the encounter, and b) to limit players ability to solo the shard instances.</p>

[EQ2Magroo]

<p><cite>Xethren@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I talked with the tank after everyone was done cooling off, and yes we didnt have enough DPS, and the group makeup he said was not what it should have been.</p><p>Sorry for the rant that was not correct. I still feel that the devs are going overboard on the immunities though.</p><p><em>EQ2Magroo- <span>The devs have implemented stuff like immunity to certain spells in TSO for a good reason. It adds a challenge to the encounter. You have to use a strategy and work as a team to resolve.</span></em></p><p>How is making half my spells useless in these dungeons add challenge? Mez/stun/root immunities for named i can understand, as a lot of the stuff in kunark was that way, but for the other stuff? It doesnt make sense.</p></blockquote><p>Well, is the mob now challenging ? Are you having to work as a team to develop a strat and implement it together ? Can you just rely on the old tank & spank method ?</p><p>I think "making half my spells useless" has done a very good job of doing the above, even though you do not like it.</p><p>I don't like the fact that this mob doesn't seem to care about my stuns or snares, but hey ho, I adapt. I let the tank take the hits and I just keep running along with everyone else. It would be nice if I could snare him then I could probably solo him, but is that really the sort of "challenge" that this zone should be offering ?</p><p>I've never had to run this mob around the track twice, worst was 3/4 way round but most of the time it's before halfway, but there must be a proximity on those bombs. As the previous poster suggested, run him around the *outside* first time around, then the *inside* the second time. You should be able to stay out of the trigger range of the mobs. Of course, if your group members can't DPS him down in one circuit, there's a high chance they will not listen to your instructions and run around the outside on the second lap too <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I personally think there is a lot of exageration and people throwing toys out of their prams on these forums because things have changed in TSO and they are having to adapt and they don't like it. I don't think for a second that any class has half their skills made useless (maybe for one or two situational encounters, but that's always been the case for this game. The only class that isn't affected by this is of course Assassins... /meooww)</p><p>If there are genuine problems then fine feel free to correct me, but generally when you ask people what the *exact* problem is, and what they are having problems with it all boils down to "I used to be able to sleep walk through this content to get my phat lewtz but now I can't. I want my lewt now !"</p>

[Jesdyr]

<p><cite>Pinski wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Basically they just want to marginalize Enchanters into a buff/dps class that requires little to no thought.  That is why all these mobs are immune.</p></blockquote><p>They just dont want us soloing everything. I still hate that everything is either Immune to all CC (aside from slow?) or not immune. All they really need to deter soloing is to remove stuns. Yes we can solo without stuns but it takes forever to do it that way and the risk is much higher... They have also said that our CC trivializes name conent, which is true. If we can stunlock a mob it turns into easy mode for any group.</p><p>To the OP... Get some decent gear and learn to DPS. Raidering coercers can pull some nice DPS, but even just using heroic gear you can pull some nice numbers all while being able to make life easy for most of the zone.</p>

[Evette23]

<p>They could at least use a lesser version of epic immunities for the named. IMO it's dumb to have trash immune to any form of charm or control spells. Named mobs in these instances should get immunity timers, but allow the full duration of the control spell. And/or have some named that can break control effects. Otherwise, why even give enchanters charm and control spells? For trash that dies in 20 seconds?</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They could at least use a lesser version of epic immunities for the named. IMO it's dumb to have trash immune to any form of charm or control spells. Named mobs in these instances should get immunity timers, but allow the full duration of the control spell. And/or have some named that can break control effects. Otherwise, why even give enchanters charm and control spells? For trash that dies in 20 seconds?</p></blockquote><p>Crowd control is still useful (think Veksar, Crucible, etc.) but the developers want it to be used <em>strategically</em>, not as a means for players to bypass the script and just brute-force the encounter.</p>

[Norrsken]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>zaneluke wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Even with sub standard dps you can run the mob around the race track twice. Run the mob on the outside first then inside when you pass his spawn point to avoid the gifts he leaves in his wake. Get spawned in to lava? run out and run out fast and get back in to the fight.</blockquote><p>Unless they've recently changed something (I haven't done DF in a couple of weeks), you can't "run the mob around the race track twice" because the lava bombs don't dissapate. If you can't kill him the first go around, your tank will be dragging your group right into them. That said, even a low DPS group should be able to kill him before you make a full loop; if not, it means that your tank is either constantly running backwards (bad), or moving back too far each time a bomb is dropped (bad).</p><p>The practical answer to the restrictions on enchanters in these instances is a) to prevent players from short-circuiting the scripts and trivializing the encounter, and b) to limit players ability to solo the shard instances.</p></blockquote><p>They do dissapate, it just takes a long time. I know since the first time I did that encounter I didnt move, and saw the AEpets dissapear after a while. Though I took one hell of a lot of damage. >.< And I died when the healers went oop, so we switched tactics.</p><p>And if you run so fast around the track, just zigzag around it. Not like he's throwing those bombs very far.</p>

[EQ2Magroo]

<p>OK, did a run through this last night and our group was (only) putting out between 6k-8k DPS.</p><p>We cleared the zone no problem and the final named was killed before we even got 3/4 of the way around the track.</p><p>If you do it right, there's no need to get into trouble.</p><p>If you do it wrong, then all bets are off. But isn't that what we've all been asking for these past years ?</p>

[Xethren]

<p>Did Najena's Tower last night and the group eventually won. Had a couple hiccups on the named lava drake, and the waves Najena summons, but we did it in the end. I didnt really see any Immune tags pop up.</p><p>I dont know what it was with that Firelord though. Guess we werent doing it corretly.</p><p>Thanks all for the constructive critism. I was posting in anger at the time of the original, so I probably wasnt seeing things in the correct light. Yes challenge is a very good thing, just dont want the devs to start going overboard with it- where it requires raid gear to do group stuff- not saying TSO content is that way, but sometimes it feels like it.</p>

[Aule]

As a coercer myself, and one who did solo through "group" content in ROK and before, I agree that being able to stunlock named mobs trivializes the encounter. That being said, my complaint has always been that the Immune tag results in the heroic content being more resistant to my coerciveness than x4 mobs are. I wish the heroic content that would be immune would merely get the epic style resistance of 1/3rd duration and 3x duration immunity instead. There are still a few named fights in TSO that you can stun the nameds on, not sure why, and those fights end up being pretty wimpy as a result. Usually I find that the healers I'm grouped with get lazy because of all the stunning and then there's a huge spike on damage during the named fight due to the immunity <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Usually they recover quickly and start healing like they mean it heh heh heh.

[Lethe5683]

<p>Nameds should be immune, otherwise people whould find ways to kill them so easily they could do it in their sleep.  Classes like enchanters are for two things mainly: group buffs and mezzing/stunning non-named mobs.  They also do a very decent amount of DPS.</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>As a coercer myself, and one who did solo through "group" content in ROK and before, I agree that being able to stunlock named mobs trivializes the encounter. That being said, my complaint has always been that the Immune tag results in the heroic content being more resistant to my coerciveness than x4 mobs are. I wish the heroic content that would be immune would merely get the epic style resistance of 1/3rd duration and 3x duration immunity instead. There are still a few named fights in TSO that you can stun the nameds on, not sure why, and those fights end up being pretty wimpy as a result. Usually I find that the healers I'm grouped with get lazy because of all the stunning and then there's a huge spike on damage during the named fight due to the immunity <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Usually they recover quickly and start healing like they mean it heh heh heh.</blockquote><p>That I agree with completly.</p>

[Thunndar316]

<p>SOE is the best at giving people tools, then making them useless on most encounters.</p>

[Anfauglith]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They could at least use a lesser version of epic immunities for the named. IMO it's dumb to have trash immune to any form of charm or control spells. Named mobs in these instances should get immunity timers, but allow the full duration of the control spell. And/or have some named that can break control effects. Otherwise, why even give enchanters charm and control spells? For trash that dies in 20 seconds?</p></blockquote><p>Crowd control is still useful (think Veksar, Crucible, etc.) but the developers want it to be used <em>strategically</em>, not as a means for players to bypass the script and just brute-force the encounter.</p></blockquote><p>Crowed control is still VERY important in some places...a coercer in guk: lower corridors makes it so much easier...also helps a ton in ravenscale...which are 3rd and 4th hardest zones...I haven't tried the last 2. For the "easy" zones, I have a harder time to know how important crowed control is when our usual guild groups can just brun through and live.</p><p>While in raids, as a scout I prefer to be grouped with an illu, in instance groups coercers rocks.</p>

[Faenril]

<p><cite>Pinski wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Basically they just want to marginalize Enchanters into a buff/dps class that requires little to no thought.  That is why all these mobs are immune.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly. With enchanters in their current state, when all their CCs land named encounters get trivial and from that perspective they are/were overpowered.</p><p>Apparently devs can't figure out a way to design challenging encounters for enchanters except making mobs immune to their CCs. And as a compensation you get extra DPS (very nice dps btw).</p><p>So you are now some sort of fast casting wizard/buff bot/power battery with the occasionnal mezz when you make an add that your group can not handle. Yeah trash mobs are (usually) not immune but if your group can kill CC immune named it will wipe the floor with trash mobs anyway so what's the point ?</p><p>SOE first give class defining abilities (with complete AA lines to enhance them, mind you) to make them worthless afterwards... Way to remove part of class uniqueness.</p><p>/thumbs</p>