Which Tank would you say is the best aggro holder ?

[Zalaeh]

<p>Iam not sure if Iam in the right forum, but since there is no "general" fighter forum I had to go somewhere with my question. So, Iam wondering, which tank would be the best to hold aggro against the most intense DPSers out there.</p><p>I am looking to start a twink which is supposed to be fun for a long time. Which means there will not be any power leveling or collection-turn-in-spam, just a good time gaming and grouping. However I dont think its going to be fun if I lose aggro all the time. I know there arent many groups in the lower levels, but Iam just going to bring my family.</p><p>I usually take pride in my twinks, so getting all spells to adept 3 and everyting mastercrafted is absolute minimum for me.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>With the way fighters are currently I would say a Paladin if he is a good player.  Amends is by far the easy-mode agro tool in the game.  So that really good DPS you have the Pally slap amends on them and you are good to go.  Now this will supposedly change come fighter change 2.0 and the rumor of a change to amends.  If they mess up amends quite a bit at that point I would say a SK because I am biased...for good reason of course.</p>

[Zalaeh]

<p>thats wierd. Some longer time ago I used to have quite a few shadowknights within our guild, and all of them had rather severe aggro problems. Did they change them ?</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<p>SKs tend to (even now) have to stay in offensive stance to hold aggro.</p><p>Amends is "easy mode aggro" is a myth. The paladin is however almost entirely at the mercy of ONE dpser being substantially and consistently higher aggro than others.  Any other conditions and you find out just how weak the taunts and dps of this class is. </p><p>Anything could happen in the fighter revamp, so the answer in a few weeks may well be different.</p>

[Zalaeh]

<p>any chance for a link to more information to that ? somehow these forums are so terribly slow for me that it takes 5 to 10 mins to load to another page =( its terrible</p>

[Bremer]

Before the fighter changes with the next GU there is no point at all discussing current hate gain of fighters.

[Aull]

<p>With all the incoming changes this subject will change. However a paladin is great at holding aggro but is dependant on another class to do it. Paladin at higher lvls do get some nice snap aggro tools if aggro is lost.</p><p>If a player is running in groups that do not provide hate transfers and melee buffs I would say that a monk on a single target is very hard to beat.</p><p>If dps players will practice some restraint and not open up on a mob full force and let the tank have five to eight seconds of hate generation then most tanks can do a good job at holding aggro. In everyday norrath most fights will not last long enough for there to be any worries about deaths in the group do to aggro loss. However what a player practices at everyday leisure norrath runs will be doing the same on elite/heroic fights that are difficult and challenging.</p>

[Lleren]

<p>The best played one.  Plate Tanks have the edge over Leather tanks in most grouping scenarios.</p><p>What we know so far about the plans for the upcoming changes seems pretty simple, but  it took more lines then i thought it would to write it out =D.</p><p><strong>Below is my understanding of what they are planning to change by design</strong></p><p>goodbye to hate transfer as an ability of any class, will be changed to something else.  Amends will still be powerfull, but it will be something other then it curently is</p><p>Tanks will be more responsible for thier own aggro holding, and may get a specific tool to aid them</p><p>Single target tanks will be Guardian and Paladin</p><p>Multiple target tanks will be Berserker and Shadowknight</p><p>Monks and Bruisers have no clue what is changing with them</p><p>Defensive stance is meant for tanking and holding aggro</p><p>Offensive stance is meant for DPSing, and not hate gain</p><p>Fighters are not meant to do more DPS then scouts</p><p>Some buffs are being combined and  made offensive or defensive stance required, or possibly added to the offensive/defensive stances</p>

[LygerT]

<p>when have fighters ever done more dps than scouts?</p>

[Grimmly]

<p>When the said scout does not know how to play their class!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Kordran]

<p>The only time that Amends (currently) is easy-mode aggro control is when you have a group where there is one DPS player who does far and away more damage than any others in the group. An example would be a typical group in all legendary gear, with a raid warlock who has his mythical. In that particular kind of configuration, yes, it would be easy-mode for the Paladin because the warlock would be generating so much damage, far beyond what anyone else in the group would be capable of doing.</p><p>However, switch that to a group so that you have three well-geared/mastered T1 DPS classes and the Paladin <em>will </em>have to fight to maintain aggro, just like any other fighter class. And because the Paladin depends on that one DPS player staying at or near the top of the parse, if that DPS slacks for whatever reason, the Paladin is just screwed until he changes Amends to a new target. This is one of the reasons that good Paladins will usually run ACT and track who's really putting out the damage; some classes that look good on paper have lousy players who, in truth, can't DPS themselves out of a wet paper sack.</p><p>Bottom line, Amends is only "easy-mode" under rather ideal (for the Paladin) circumstances. In your typical, average group, a Paladin cannot just throw Amends on a DPS toon and forget about holding aggro or using taunts. And, as I said, that ability also has <em><strong>liabilities</strong></em> because of how dependent Paladins are on Amends. Supposedly that's going to all be changing in the next update, where Paladins will be getting more control over the threat they generate, and will be less dependent on threat transfers to control the encounter.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>that's all great and dandy but too bad i don't have anything that siphons hate, that's why it's called easymode because sometimes we have 0 generators and we still have to try and manage.</p>

[Lleren]

<p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>when have fighters ever done more dps than scouts?</p></blockquote><p>Well, when playing my baby 'Zerker in pickup groups I'm often the highest parsing character there, sometimes I have competition =D</p><p>2nd, My Monk has beat a lot of scouts on the dps parse /shrug</p><p>I am pretty sure you have too!</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>that's all great and dandy but too bad i don't have anything that siphons hate, that's why it's called easymode because sometimes we have 0 generators and we still have to try and manage.</p></blockquote><p>I can only assume that you've never played a Paladin for any length of time; I seriously doubt that you've ever MTed a raid as a Paladin. Two points. First, a Paladin doesn't have anywhere near the DPS of a competently geared, spec'd and played Berserker. Second, hate transfers are capped at 50%, and if your group has a Swashbuckler, Assassin and/or Coercer, the effectiveness of Amends is already reduced because it would put the Paladin over that cap.</p><p>This idea that a Paladin can simply put Amends on someone, and go AFK for a beer and a slice is just nonsense. Unless it's a ridiculously unbalanced or low DPS group, a Paladin still has to work to hold aggro. Personally, I'd live with them taking away Amends, if the class DPS was increased to match what a Warrior could put out.</p><p>Edit: And your "hate generators" are called Insolence, Turmoil, Open Wounds, etc. That's how Berserkers hold aggro -- through their own damage output. Paladins have to depend on someone else helping them hold aggro, and hope that person does enough consistent damage throughout the fight. Last I checked, not every Paladin runs around with a mythicaled Warlock in their back pocket.</p>

[Hardain]

<p>I bought the T8 def stance M1 for 21pp which was a steal, but i didn't scribe it yet, unless they make it actually useful i'll just resell it. When i need to use it i'm anyways capped in def and parry so M1 doesn't give anything.</p>

[LygerT]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>that's all great and dandy but too bad i don't have anything that siphons hate, that's why it's called easymode because sometimes we have 0 generators and we still have to try and manage.</p></blockquote><p>I can only assume that you've never played a Paladin for any length of time; I seriously doubt that you've ever MTed a raid as a Paladin. Two points. First, a Paladin doesn't have anywhere near the DPS of a competently geared, spec'd and played Berserker. Second, hate transfers are capped at 50%, and if your group has a Swashbuckler, Assassin and/or Coercer, the effectiveness of Amends is already reduced because it would put the Paladin over that cap.</p><p>This idea that a Paladin can simply put Amends on someone, and go AFK for a beer and a slice is just nonsense. Unless it's a ridiculously unbalanced or low DPS group, a Paladin still has to work to hold aggro. Personally, I'd live with them taking away Amends, if the class DPS was increased to match what a Warrior could put out.</p><p>Edit: And your "hate generators" are called Insolence, Turmoil, Open Wounds, etc. That's how Berserkers hold aggro -- through their own damage output. Paladins have to depend on someone else helping them hold aggro, and hope that person does enough consistent damage throughout the fight. Last I checked, not every Paladin runs around with a mythicaled Warlock in their back pocket.</p></blockquote><p>that's too bad. one of my old guild leaders was our main tank pally and he used me for an amends target in heroic groups, he would just choose targets and auto attack because he was always in tells with like 5 people at the same time, mobs never peeled off him. group and raid aren't the same thing, but you can nitpick and assume i was talking about raid if you wanted to though i don't remember giving any specifics.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>that's too bad. one of my old guild leaders was our main tank pally and he used me for an amends target in heroic groups, he would just choose targets and auto attack because he was always in tells with like 5 people at the same time, mobs never peeled off him. group and raid aren't the same thing, but you can nitpick and assume i was talking about raid if you wanted to though i don't remember giving any specifics.</p></blockquote><p>All that says is that the other DPS in your groups sucked. And by suck, I mean they created such a vacuum that all matter, and indeed time itself, could get pulled into its swirling vortex of fail. Let me put you and your Paladin friend in a group with three T1 DPS who actually know how to play their class and are comparably geared, and I guarantee you, he'll be mashing buttons so hard to try and hold aggro, you'll hear his keyboard break over vent.</p><p>But then, you being in a raiding guild, you actually know better. However, don't let me interfere with your fun of setting up strawmen so that you can knock them down. Have at it.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>and you and i both know it is totally dependent on the group makeup.</p><p>that was a long time ago also, i doubt it would apply so much today. but point is even when i was taunting and fully DPSing i had a hard time pulling aggro off of him, of course he could have been less AFK than he made it sound. but we both know another fighter, with taunts, is the best amends target(exception would be if that fighter can't dps his way out of a paper bag).</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>but we both know another fighter, with taunts, is the best amends target(exception would be if that fighter can't dps his way out of a paper bag).</p></blockquote><p>Another fighter is only the best target for amends if you don't have any T1 DPS class that really knows how to play their toon. I guarantee you, a <strong>well-played and comparably geared</strong> (in your case, fabled/mythical/mastered) warlock will generate more threat for a Paladin than you could ever hope to, in your wildest, Turmoil/Frenzied Hits/Insolence/Open Wounds induced fantasies.</p><p>Amends is only as good as the player the Paladin has it on. That is both a strength <em><strong>and</strong></em> a weakness.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>somehow i doubt it, taking the pally with amends on the warlock he may have a lock on a few but i'd be up for your challenge of thinking he would be controlling all of them. put me in a group with a dirge, put him in a group with his warlock and i would love to test this and see who comes out on top.</p><p>the limitation zerks have is high HP mobs, over 4 count, which is not very common. i'll give your pally/warlock combo that they have more consistency than i can manage though, i need about 25 seconds or so to really be able to lay into an encounter again.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Ok, I have to clear some things up...</p><p>For the individual that posted about throwing the Paladin in a group with 3 T1 dps and seeing how easy it is to hold agro.  This is true for any tank what so ever.  The difference being you take that same group of 3 T1 dps with a Pally they will hold it easier than any other tank if there is no hate transfer.  Furthermore, with hate transfer or hate buffs the Paladin still has the edge of easily reaching cap.  Yes, your amends target makes a huge difference...but it is still hate that you are not working at what so ever.</p><p>Now, about the best target for amends being another fighter.  I would agree with this.  You put me, a SK, in a group with 2-3 DPS'ers and a Paladin if I do not have amends I will rip agro more than anybody guaranteed.  In fact i would wager I would hold agro more often than the Paladin.  If the Paladin throws Amends on me all of those mobs are on him like glue, once in a while I might pull one through Amends, but it would be briefly and the rest of the guys could go balls to the wall and not worry about pulling agro.  Simply because as another fighter I am made to increase my agro leaps and bounds ahead of DPS'ers.  I have self buffs that increase hate, I have taunts that not only damage but are also increasing hate directly, I have temp buffs (DM ftw) that are such huge hate increases nothing other classes can do DPS wise makes up for it.</p><p>Yes, Amends is an easy-mode agro tool.  Yes, I am glad it is getting changed.  I only hope that it is changed into something as useful, but requiring somewhat skill to use correctly.  Give Paladins a hate tool like DM that is situational and not <easy-button-buff> mode.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Depends on your pally I guess. Ours puts out some crazy good DPS even while tanking, and can hold aggro without any issues <em>without</em> Amends.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>the real answer is there is no real answer.</p><p>both SK and zerk peel off each other and both of us peel off of pally, partially because we all have peels/snaps/force targets and also because there will always be discrepencies on AE dps, some mobs will get additional procs, some mobs will resist, some mobs will parry, yadda yadda yadda. but overall all 3 of us currently are about equals given ideal groups- the argument is just a [Removed for Content] contest that we all play to make us feel like we are needed/wanted.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For the individual that posted about throwing the Paladin in a group with 3 T1 dps and seeing how easy it is to hold agro. This is true for any tank what so ever. The difference being you take that same group of 3 T1 dps with a Pally they will hold it easier than any other tank if there is no hate transfer. Furthermore, with hate transfer or hate buffs the Paladin still has the edge of easily reaching cap. Yes, your amends target makes a huge difference...but it is still hate that you are not working at what so ever.</p></blockquote><p>Amends exists because Paladins, by design, were given the lowest damage output of any fighter. Yes, I'm sure that there are Paladins with gear/spec that can manage to put out some numbers and not require Amends, but your average, everyday Paladin simply would not be able to hold aggro against any DPS class without that spell.</p><p>What Paladins are worried about isn't that they're going to lose their "easy mode button". It's the fear that Aeralik is going to remove Amends (or nerf it so much that he might as well remove it), and do nothing to compensate for that loss. That the class will lose its hate transfer, leaving it at the rock bottom of damage output <em>and</em> threat generation, and Paladins will be unable to do their job. I have some faith that's not going to happen, but there's not a lot of optimism out there about what's going on with GU51.</p>

[Lleren]

<p>Well I have to agree, not a lot of faith out there in how the balance is going to end up between all the various tank classes.   I don't have much certainly, what I do have is hope.  Hope that the balancing is not around raid tanking, but instanced based tanking and more casual players.  If tanks are balanced so the average Tank can hold aggro against a Good warlock or wizard I think everything else will work itself out.</p><p>I'd define the average tank as putting out between 750 to 1250 dps most of the time, somewhere in there.  If you're regularly putting out more dps you're probobly in the category I think of as good tanks.  Poor tanks for me are putting out between 500 to 1k dps and in addition generally have problems with one or more basic tanking concepts. gear, mob placement, communication or similar.</p><p>I just hope its not balanced based on what the top end tanks out there can pull off.  </p>

[Glerin]

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><p>What Paladins are worried about isn't that they're going to lose their "easy mode button". It's the fear that Aeralik is going to remove Amends (or nerf it so much that he might as well remove it), and do nothing to compensate for that loss. That the class will lose its hate transfer, leaving it at the rock bottom of damage output <em>and</em> threat generation, and Paladins will be unable to do their job. I have some faith that's not going to happen, but there's not a lot of optimism out there about what's going on with GU51.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This satement is fairly untrue in most cases (not all), what worries most (if not all) paladins that atleast got a clue what they are doing, is not a nerf to amends - hell they could half it's % and it'd still be a awesome ability, or make it into a taunt (which i suspect they will...), what worries them (us) is the fact they wish to make us single target tanks - this is something we have NOT been for the past 4years of this game, it is completely revamping a class from its core, not a loss of amends, a complete revamp of the class it what have most worried, including me.</span></p></blockquote><p>however some will live and learn, some will reroll, some will stick around, some will whine all over the place, we will see how it all turns out, personally im looking forward for these new changes for all fighters exept the paladin class, i expect them to majorly do something wrong and make paladins into a 2nd string guardian, and i dont think anyone wants that</p>

[Kordran]

<p>At this point, I'm not so concerned about Paladins being turned into an exclusively single-target tank; that would require such sweeping changes that basically it would mean that Aeralik is redesigning the Paladin from scratch, and I don't get the impression that's actually what he's doing. As for Amends, note that I didn't say reduce it (by half, even); I said remove it, or make it functionally useless (e.g.: a 3% hate transfer at AD3, 5% at M1) <em><strong>and</strong></em> not replace it with anything.</p><p>I see one of three things happening with Amends:</p><p>1. The hate transfer is reduced, but otherwise functions as it does now. It may also possibly be changed to only increase threat to the currently targetted mob.</p><p>2. It is changed to work more like Moderate does for the Guardian. The person that the Paladin puts Amends on will have their hate generation reduced, but not transferred.</p><p>3. It is changed to a buff that increases the Paladin's hate generation.</p>

[Glerin]

<p>Aeralick have stated that he intend to make paladins into single target tanks - thats why paladins are worried, since as you say, it is to completely redesign the class, it's NEVER been single target. ever.</p>

[Kordran]

<p><cite>Glerin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Aeralick have stated that he intend to make paladins into single target tanks - thats why paladins are worried, since as you say, it is to completely redesign the class, it's NEVER been single target. ever.</p></blockquote><p>The only thing I recall Aeralik saying was that he wanted to bring Paladins "closer" to Guardians in terms of defense; that he saw the fighter classes, in order of tanking ability to be:</p><p>Guardian > Paladin > Berserker > Shadowknight > Monk > Bruiser</p><p>And the reverse to be true in terms of damage output. Do you (or anyone) have links to a post where he specifically said that they're going to be removing most of the AoE spells from the Paladin and replace them with with single-target spells?</p>