Devs please give us a hardcore option [Archive]

Axelia

12-12-2008, 06:06 AM

I been playing EQ2 now for over four years. Sometimes staying a year slint or running 2 MMOs at once. I love the game and think it has blossomed into one of the best MMOs out there. There are times though that the game becomes downright boring because I feel it lacks any real challenge other than me deciding that since my char died that I should delete that char.One of the things that has kept me playing Diablo 2 for going on 9 years is the fact I can play in a mode that if my avatar dies, the game is over. Sure I lost a lot of chars over the years but I learned to play them well and succeeded in getting past Hell mode. With Diablo 3 on the horizon I probably head off to that game since it will again offer this mode of challenging game play. It does not have to be that way though and since SOE is setting the bar with Station Cash why not add the option at character creation to play in hardcore mode. SOE would be the first major MMO developer to offer this form of game play.Upon character creation make a option to play hardcore. Make it clear that SOE will not restore any hardcore char that dies for ANY reason. The char name color should be different so that those that play this way can find others that want to group up. The player can also group with anyone else but the group knows that this player is going for broke ever encounter.If the char dies they will respawn as a ghost in their home city. They can travel within their city but can no longer adventure or tradeskill. They can never again gain experience. They can chat, make trades, take care of their house but never again leave the city.There is no need to make a server for this nor is there any reason to make the game easier. Heck, make it harder for all I care. I just want the option to play at this level of intensity without having to self police myself. Besides if I found others that played this way I may actually find a group that has like interest.

ashen1973

12-12-2008, 06:30 AM

I like this idea. I dont think I would play it often myself, but anything that adds another dimension to the game, giving people mor ereason to enjoy playing, im all for.I am about to start a 'perma-death' competition within my guild, just for fun. the basic rules are, character dies then it is deleted, no twinking. Still working out the fine detail, but it will probably be a league-table affair with points for speed of leveling and level achieved.

12-12-2008, 07:23 AM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>If the char dies they will respawn as a ghost in their home city. They can travel within their city but can no longer adventure or tradeskill. They can never again gain experience. They can chat, make trades, take care of their house but never again leave the city.</blockquote>OK I am kind of slow I guess, I know you said you can personally just delete your character if you die, but what is really different then what your asking? If you want a "hardcore" game do as you envision it should, as in if you die you delete your character. Granted having a way for others to visibly know this is how your playing is neat, but seriously in a group you can die for no reason of your own, and completly because of someone else not sure you would be very happy to have died due to a resisted taunt to pull something off you, or a heal landing just a bit too late, maybe mez getting resisted, etc. I guess the short version is why should soe create something like this when you have the power to do it yourself based on "your" rules, what ever and however they are.

Axelia

12-12-2008, 07:42 AM

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>If the char dies they will respawn as a ghost in their home city. They can travel within their city but can no longer adventure or tradeskill. They can never again gain experience. They can chat, make trades, take care of their house but never again leave the city.</blockquote>OK I am kind of slow I guess, I know you said you can personally just delete your character if you die, but what is really different then what your asking? If you want a "hardcore" game do as you envision it should, as in if you die you delete your character. Granted having a way for others to visibly know this is how your playing is neat, but seriously in a group you can die for no reason of your own, and completly because of someone else not sure you would be very happy to have died due to a resisted taunt to pull something off you, or a heal landing just a bit too late, maybe mez getting resisted, etc. I guess the short version is why should soe create something like this when you have the power to do it yourself based on "your" rules, what ever and however they are.</blockquote>I find that most groups I get in the players just don't care if they live or die. Some groups use death as a free port. It really ruins the night when someone runs in and pulls the room just because they are done for the evening. I get in a group once in awhile that has a prime focus on roleplay but they are so few that I find myself just soloing the game. Well, soloing the game is OK but it gets boring.If SOE made the hardcore mode I think I could find the players that play the way I want to play. I don't see the problem with wanting this and I think others would also like the option.

Thunderthyze

12-12-2008, 08:13 AM

While I can sort of see the attraction of having the kudos of wandering around as a high level character that has never died I think that it would have to be installed on its own ruleset server.The huge issue I see is the factor of lousy internet connections. Lag and LDs are the cause of so many inadvertant deaths, especially in group play, that I would imagine the server would become populated with a bunch of care bear soloers that end up achieving very little.

Kalthaza

12-12-2008, 09:51 AM

The Gemstone series of MUD's have this very feature.I think it adds a lot of spice to the game because, while it's easy to ensure you don't permadie, you still have to make a conscious effort to keep up with your 'lives'The way it works is you gain 'favour' with your deity (much like we do now, by making sufficient offerings) - the more favour you have, the more live syou have, and the more favour 'costs'.If you die, but are rezzed, you lose one life. IF you have to revive somewhere, you lose up to 3, depending on where you are, distance from your home city and such like.It encouraged people NOT to use death as a means of transport!If any game introduced this, I would be very happy - death is an enemy, and priest types are in MUCH higher demand than usual - hunts for dead players was a very common thing, and added to the game's depth.

Jrral

12-12-2008, 12:32 PM

I doubt they'll offer it, because it'll be popular with such a small number of players. As people have noted, you can always simply rez, call home and delete your character already, which is what you'd have to do with your option too, so I don't see what this option offers that you don't already have available to you.For myself, though, I wouldn't allow such a character in any group I'm in charge of. I expect to wipe occasionally, either because of bad luck or because we're working out the right approach to a difficult mob. We can't afford to have the group stalled trying to find a replacement for a permadeath character when that happens. We may not be able to find a replacement at all, or one willing to not get the chance at some (possibly most) of the named's drops, and then the whole group suffers a blown run at the instance. Even if we do find a replacement, we've wasted all the time looking for someone and getting them to the instance to zone in. I wouldn't feel comfortable asking a group to put up with that unless there weren't any other options available.

Natturabi

12-12-2008, 12:55 PM

This is a horrible idea. Like people have pointed out, go for one death and delete. Staying a ghost in your hometown, boy alot of fun in that. Maybe you can get station access and have an account of 12 ghosts. Diablo II was nothing but a long grind, not too much variance in gameplay once you knew your way around. In EQ2 what happens when you actually get 24 people together? They have the option to go raiding. So are people going to get their hardcores together, accidentally wipe on the first raid mob. Go level to 80 again. Woo hoo that really proved alot. Go kill 100k green mobs playing all conservative to not die, rinse and repeat. I tried hardcore in Diablo II back in the day. Actually got a character past the first Diablo, got some cool gear. One day the connection got a little sketchy and crashed. I log back in and I was this beloved ghost you want to be. I was personally steamed that I wasted one iota of time making this now worthless character.

Kaltona

12-12-2008, 01:32 PM

yea id make my first character on this system, probli die at level 12 in sum stupid way get annoyed and never use the feature again. Id say so would 90% of players

erin

12-12-2008, 02:22 PM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>For myself, though, I wouldn't allow such a character in any group I'm in charge of. I expect to wipe occasionally, either because of bad luck or because we're working out the right approach to a difficult mob. We can't afford to have the group stalled trying to find a replacement for a permadeath character when that happens. We may not be able to find a replacement at all, or one willing to not get the chance at some (possibly most) of the named's drops, and then the whole group suffers a blown run at the instance. Even if we do find a replacement, we've wasted all the time looking for someone and getting them to the instance to zone in. I wouldn't feel comfortable asking a group to put up with that unless there weren't any other options available.</blockquote>Agree 100%. If you aren't dying occasionally in a group, then you are just doing too easy content.

Full_Metal_Mage

12-12-2008, 02:35 PM

I think a hardcore play option would be great! The way it would work is you only get one character slot on your account and the first time you die you are automatically logged out and your account is immediately and irrevocably banned. You would then have to purchase a new account in order to start over again. Anything less than these rules would not be hardcore.

Brook

12-12-2008, 02:54 PM

Bah, they wont even put spirit shards back in, I doubt they will do this.Then again they could put shards back in and offer an option to buy your shard back with the marketplace...they could make money and you would have your hardcore version <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Axelia

12-12-2008, 09:15 PM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>For myself, though, I wouldn't allow such a character in any group I'm in charge of. I expect to wipe occasionally, either because of bad luck or because we're working out the right approach to a difficult mob. We can't afford to have the group stalled trying to find a replacement for a permadeath character when that happens. We may not be able to find a replacement at all, or one willing to not get the chance at some (possibly most) of the named's drops, and then the whole group suffers a blown run at the instance. Even if we do find a replacement, we've wasted all the time looking for someone and getting them to the instance to zone in. I wouldn't feel comfortable asking a group to put up with that unless there weren't any other options available.</blockquote>Your reason is why it would benifit to have the mode. that way you can play your way with your group and those that want to play in the hardcore can. Main reason I do not group is because I find to many groups that do exactly what you do.Guess I solo play and wait for a game that has more challenge. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

erin

12-12-2008, 09:33 PM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>For myself, though, I wouldn't allow such a character in any group I'm in charge of. I expect to wipe occasionally, either because of bad luck or because we're working out the right approach to a difficult mob. We can't afford to have the group stalled trying to find a replacement for a permadeath character when that happens. We may not be able to find a replacement at all, or one willing to not get the chance at some (possibly most) of the named's drops, and then the whole group suffers a blown run at the instance. Even if we do find a replacement, we've wasted all the time looking for someone and getting them to the instance to zone in. I wouldn't feel comfortable asking a group to put up with that unless there weren't any other options available.</blockquote>Your reason is why it would benifit to have the mode. that way you can play your way with your group and those that want to play in the hardcore can. Main reason I do not group is because I find to many groups that do exactly what you do.Guess I solo play and wait for a game that has more challenge. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>So you never die while soloing? Either you are uber and never make a mistake, or you just aren't doing any challenging content.

Kordran

12-12-2008, 09:42 PM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main reason I do not group is because I find to many groups that do exactly what you do.</blockquote>You mean groups that do difficult content with encounters more complex than walk up, whack it over the head and loot? Advocating this style of play for soloing, hey, that's your own thing. But it makes no sense for grouping, and would be beyond ridiculous for raiding.Play Oblivion, delete your character when you die. Problem solved.

Axelia

12-13-2008, 12:28 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Main reason I do not group is because I find to many groups that do exactly what you do.</blockquote>You mean groups that do difficult content with encounters more complex than walk up, whack it over the head and loot? Advocating this style of play for soloing, hey, that's your own thing. But it makes no sense for grouping, and would be beyond ridiculous for raiding.Play Oblivion, delete your character when you die. Problem solved.</blockquote>Please define difficult here. Are these encounters you call difficult 5 and 10 levels over you? Are they tuned to be doable at your level? Really define what you call difficult. So far my experience in this game has been a group that thinks they can take on red mobs, entire rooms of ornge mobs or some combination of the two. I myself can and do solo a range between yellow and blue and sometimes get into an orange but as far as dying, no I don't because I don't go past the limitations of my char. Highest level I have made is 47 and I deleted the char not because she died but because I saw a flaw in the development that would eventually get her killed.As for Oblivion. I did play Oblivion. Thanks, it was great and I got through the game witout a death. Did I have to reload? NO. Problem not solved.

Gilasil

12-13-2008, 03:15 AM

I'm intrigued by this concept. It puts a whole new spin on exactly what is difficult. Even soloing is difficult this way. Obviously such hardcore players would do easier content then otherwise, but with the hardcore ruleset that easy content becomes difficult content if even one death deletes your character. I'm sure that many arrogant high level raiders could never manage such a ruleset even if they wanted to.It would be best if hardcore players only grouped with other hardcore players. The main reason for having something in the game to recognize this is so they can find each other. I'd skip the whole ghost part. Perhaps you could organise a guild if you can find enough people. That way when your character dies your next character can maintain the relationships. The guild could have memorials for characters when they die.Nowadays it's not hard to get into your 20s without ever dying, but if I saw a hardcore player even just in his 40's I'd be mightily impressed. I think getting to even intermediate level without ever dying requires more skill then just about anything in this game. Even if they soloed their way there. It also requires a completely different -- and more realistic -- play style.This might work best if a game was designed for this from the ground up.

Axelia

12-13-2008, 04:39 AM

OK I am going to make some statements and I really hope the Dev's turn their heads and not start nerfing classes and equipment or worse. The reason I am doing this is so you can get a picture of where I stand right now with EQ2. Back a couple years ago I made a post and showed a log about my Paladin having problems in Splitpaw. I whined and cried about how the mobs in Splitpaw were WAY over powered. Some of you may remember this post. I was told "learn to play your class NOOB" and so on. Someone who will remain nameless sent me a PM about gearing up and getting prepared for encounters. At the time I hated to craft so I set out looking for rares and someone to make gear. Eventually I just started a crafter, then another and another and eventually I got all MC gear. I was obsessed to get every piece of gear and so I took a station account. I had 9 crafters, a transmuter and a tinkerer and access to ever adornment. I sat down and pushed the calculator on classes and figuring exactly what I needed to make the char able to survive and get the mob dead. My characters are not going to top the DPS charts but they can and do survive. I did exactly what I did in D2. You know Splitpaw is so easy now that even the final mob in the solo arena did not even take my Paladin to 75% health. LOL could not even get her out of the green. I deleted the toon and made another one. This char was twinked to the gills all MC gear and adornments. Solo content was way to easy so I started doing heroic content. Heroic content was really tough and eventually my char died, I deleted the char and started another. This time I did a ranger. The ranger was twinked to the gills and could down just about anything under orange including Heroic content. Someone saw this evidently and cried about it because the devs nerfed the chit out of the ranger on next LU. I decided to go back to grouping. The first group the MT decided he was finished for the night and got us wiped. Next group the healer though they were meant to DPS and not heal so we loose the healer with 4 three up orange mobs on us. Next group we get to a named mob the MT does not wait for the healer to power up. This list goes on and on ppl. I got 2 good groups out of 10. Very frustrating to play this way. The players remind me of the NPCs in Oblivion. Rush to their deaths! At this point I decided that groups don't carry the same interest I do so I best solo. Wait a sec, solo chit is just a cakewalk, heroic chit is way to tough so where does this leave me? I quit the game for 5 months and went in search of something else. I played AoC for 3 months until my guild of 326 accounts left. I grouped up but with LIKE minded players. Players that were like me and gave a chit about their KvD. When I came back I took a bunch of crap from a couple player over the broker incident from 6 months before so I left my server and moved.What I am asking the Developers here to do is give an option to play a different level game. If I was to come in here and ask for every class to get nerfed, you would be crying and screaming NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Should ask for solo mobs to be harder? NOOOOOOOOOOOO! Should I ask for heroic mobs to be a bit easier? NOOOOOOOOOO! Should I ask for MC gear and adornments to be nerfed to uselessness? NOOOOOOOOOOO! I am asking for one thing that you will never see unless you make a char. I am asking for Hardcore mode so I can find like minded people that play the way I play.

Lethe5683

12-13-2008, 01:00 PM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I been playing EQ2 now for over four years. Sometimes staying a year slint or running 2 MMOs at once. I love the game and think it has blossomed into one of the best MMOs out there. There are times though that the game becomes downright boring because I feel it lacks any real challenge other than me deciding that since my char died that I should delete that char.One of the things that has kept me playing Diablo 2 for going on 9 years is the fact I can play in a mode that if my avatar dies, the game is over. Sure I lost a lot of chars over the years but I learned to play them well and succeeded in getting past Hell mode. With Diablo 3 on the horizon I probably head off to that game since it will again offer this mode of challenging game play. It does not have to be that way though and since SOE is setting the bar with Station Cash why not add the option at character creation to play in hardcore mode. SOE would be the first major MMO developer to offer this form of game play.Upon character creation make a option to play hardcore. Make it clear that SOE will not restore any hardcore char that dies for ANY reason. The char name color should be different so that those that play this way can find others that want to group up. The player can also group with anyone else but the group knows that this player is going for broke ever encounter.If the char dies they will respawn as a ghost in their home city. They can travel within their city but can no longer adventure or tradeskill. They can never again gain experience. They can chat, make trades, take care of their house but never again leave the city.There is no need to make a server for this nor is there any reason to make the game easier. Heck, make it harder for all I care. I just want the option to play at this level of intensity without having to self police myself. Besides if I found others that played this way I may actually find a group that has like interest.</blockquote>They aren't going to make a whole second version of the game for a very small minority of people. They got rid of excessive penalties fior a reason.

Kordran

12-13-2008, 02:48 PM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am asking for one thing that you will never see unless you make a char. I am asking for Hardcore mode so I can find like minded people that play the way I play.</blockquote>Why in the world would the developers need to do this? It makes absolutely zero sense. You want to play with likeminded people, then create a guild called "Permadeath" or something and recruit. Viola. There doesn't need to be a "hardcore" mode, just exercise some self-discipline and delete your toon if you die, if that's what you really want.I must say, though, I get a chuckle out of the notion that you somehow think that Splitpaw was ever the apex of difficulty in this game or something. Even back when, the final champion was a muppet. Today, with AAs and improved itemization, he's really nothing.When I'm talking about difficulty, I'm talking about scripted encounters and level 85 heroics. Ykesha's Outer Stronghold, Kor'Sha, Necrotic Asylum, Palace of Ferzhul. But that is content that you'll never see in the game, because (a) you'll never make the level and get the gear that you need to complete it, (b) even if by some miracle you did, it's highly unlikely you'd find 5 other people who have.Permadeath really only consigns you to permanent scrub status, forever playing in the peewee sandbox. If that's what you enjoy, then go for it. But I find it very unlikely that you'll get any serious players to sign on to it if they're at all really interested in progressing through the content.

Axelia

12-13-2008, 07:11 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am asking for one thing that you will never see unless you make a char. I am asking for Hardcore mode so I can find like minded people that play the way I play.</blockquote>Why in the world would the developers need to do this? It makes absolutely zero sense. You want to play with likeminded people, then create a guild called "Permadeath" or something and recruit. Viola. There doesn't need to be a "hardcore" mode, just exercise some self-discipline and delete your toon if you die, if that's what you really want.I must say, though, I get a chuckle out of the notion that you somehow think that Splitpaw was ever the apex of difficulty in this game or something. Even back when, the final champion was a muppet. Today, with AAs and improved itemization, he's really nothing.When I'm talking about difficulty, I'm talking about scripted encounters and level 85 heroics. Ykesha's Outer Stronghold, Kor'Sha, Necrotic Asylum, Palace of Ferzhul. But that is content that you'll never see in the game, because (a) you'll never make the level and get the gear that you need to complete it, (b) even if by some miracle you did, it's highly unlikely you'd find 5 other people who have.Permadeath really only consigns you to permanent scrub status, forever playing in the peewee sandbox. If that's what you enjoy, then go for it. But I find it very unlikely that you'll get any serious players to sign on to it if they're at all really interested in progressing through the content.</blockquote>I'll tell you what this comes down to Kordran. The bottom line here is that if a group of hardcore players pulled off the same stuff that the non harcore players did, there would be a few egos damaged. You and I both know that since the hardcore players took max risk as to a zero risk the harcore players would be demanding better loot tables and so on. SOE knows this too and does not want to deal with another them versus us thing.

12-13-2008, 07:20 PM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am asking for one thing that you will never see unless you make a char. I am asking for Hardcore mode so I can find like minded people that play the way I play.</blockquote>Why in the world would the developers need to do this? It makes absolutely zero sense. You want to play with likeminded people, then create a guild called "Permadeath" or something and recruit. Viola. There doesn't need to be a "hardcore" mode, just exercise some self-discipline and delete your toon if you die, if that's what you really want.I must say, though, I get a chuckle out of the notion that you somehow think that Splitpaw was ever the apex of difficulty in this game or something. Even back when, the final champion was a muppet. Today, with AAs and improved itemization, he's really nothing.When I'm talking about difficulty, I'm talking about scripted encounters and level 85 heroics. Ykesha's Outer Stronghold, Kor'Sha, Necrotic Asylum, Palace of Ferzhul. But that is content that you'll never see in the game, because (a) you'll never make the level and get the gear that you need to complete it, (b) even if by some miracle you did, it's highly unlikely you'd find 5 other people who have.Permadeath really only consigns you to permanent scrub status, forever playing in the peewee sandbox. If that's what you enjoy, then go for it. But I find it very unlikely that you'll get any serious players to sign on to it if they're at all really interested in progressing through the content.</blockquote>I'll tell you what this comes down to Kordran. The bottom line here is that if a group of hardcore players pulled off the same stuff that the non harcore players did, there would be a few egos damaged. You and I both know that since the hardcore players took max risk as to a zero risk the harcore players would be demanding better loot tables and so on. SOE knows this too and does not want to deal with another them versus us thing.</blockquote>I think you missed his point, his point was because IF you die you delete the character you will never actually make it in an instance because there are numerouls reasons why you would die. Because you don't make it in an instance you won't get gear to make those instances easier to survive to progress to the harder ones. This has nothing to do with raiding it has to do with your choice of playstyle with "perma death" when you die.

Axelia

12-13-2008, 11:51 PM

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think you missed his point, his point was because IF you die you delete the character you will never actually make it in an instance because there are numerouls reasons why you would die. Because you don't make it in an instance you won't get gear to make those instances easier to survive to progress to the harder ones. This has nothing to do with raiding it has to do with your choice of playstyle with "perma death" when you die.</blockquote>Oh I get it now.You have to die to get the instance! WOW that is LAME as hell LOL

erin

12-14-2008, 12:01 AM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think you missed his point, his point was because IF you die you delete the character you will never actually make it in an instance because there are numerouls reasons why you would die. Because you don't make it in an instance you won't get gear to make those instances easier to survive to progress to the harder ones. This has nothing to do with raiding it has to do with your choice of playstyle with "perma death" when you die.</blockquote>Oh I get it now.You have to die to get the instance! WOW that is LAME as hell LOL</blockquote>Either that or you are doing content way below you. Or you are simply reading strats somewhere. Because exploring is dangerous, if you aren't dying occasionally you aren't taking any risks. Thus your "hardcore" playstyle is actually easy mode in the sense that you aren't doing challenging content, you've only created this one single challenge: don't die.

bleap

12-14-2008, 01:15 AM

Hardcore server option one character move per account 30,000 Smedbucks...Seriously, the devs are too busy creating new SC items to concern themselves with anything else at the moment.

Killerbee3000

12-14-2008, 06:44 AM

Why would you need a separate server for permadeath? or anything else that is special? Can't you just roll a toon on a RP server and then delete it and restart from scratch if you die? I'm sure on a RP server it would be a accepted idea, of course some groups / raids / guilds would not want you, but maybe you would even find enough others to start your own permadeath guild...

Alluvielle

12-14-2008, 10:03 AM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote>If the char dies they will respawn as a ghost in their home city. They can travel within their city but can no longer adventure or tradeskill. They can never again gain experience. They can chat, make trades, take care of their house but never again leave the city.</blockquote>That is a flaw in your reasoning. The character is dead - they should not be able to do any of those things. You should only have one option with that character and thats deletion. If Im dead I cant tell people what to do with my belongings, I cant give people anything and I wont be able to pay rent or a mortgage. I also beleive that what the other people have said is right. You have this option right now if you want it. But it means you have to take initiative instead of the developers. Some will agree with you that this will be a cool addition. I can understand it from a realism point of view. But why should the development team take the time to put this in when the option already exists for us leaving them free to work on new content, abilities, items, etc?This is like in SWG people asking for a permanent overt status when typing /pvp will already do that for them.

UNTILitSLEEPS

12-15-2008, 10:49 AM

lots of ppl who play mmos try to be different from other players, a hardcore option on normal servers (with eg a special name color) would probably serve these ppl well

Axelia

12-16-2008, 06:19 AM

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Either that or you are doing content way below you. Or you are simply reading strats somewhere. Because exploring is dangerous, if you aren't dying occasionally you aren't taking any risks. Thus your "hardcore" playstyle is actually easy mode in the sense that you aren't doing challenging content, you've only created this one single challenge: don't die.</blockquote>I don't how you rank difficult here. I always stay in the blue to orange range and according to the Dev's that this the optimum range of content. You have to do something really stupid to get killed in this game and one of those stupid things is to group. I think I lost one char out of 40 solo since LU19. Every loss was someone doing something to cause a death. One instance that was extremely irritating was a player pulling a group while everyone was afk. He said well I though I could take em since they were green <img src="/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Natturabi

12-16-2008, 12:43 PM

<cite>Axelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Either that or you are doing content way below you. Or you are simply reading strats somewhere. Because exploring is dangerous, if you aren't dying occasionally you aren't taking any risks. Thus your "hardcore" playstyle is actually easy mode in the sense that you aren't doing challenging content, you've only created this one single challenge: don't die.</blockquote>I don't how you rank difficult here. I always stay in the blue to orange range and according to the Dev's that this the optimum range of content. You have to do something really stupid to get killed in this game and one of those stupid things is to group. I think I lost one char out of 40 solo since LU19. Every loss was someone doing something to cause a death. One instance that was extremely irritating was a player pulling a group while everyone was afk. He said well I though I could take em since they were green <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" /></blockquote> Death is a way of life in EQ2. Even if you got 5 others who think exactly as you do, and formed an uber permadeath group you still would never be able to see 95% of the things available at the end level. Do you honestly think 6 freshly minted 80s could walk into any heroic zone in TSO and not wipe at least once? Or are you going to be content farming groups of down arrow mobs on the overland zones? How about a permadeath guild getting their mythicals (LOL)

liveja

12-16-2008, 01:04 PM

I do like the idea of a "hard-core" server -- I absolutely think it would have to be done on a different server, for a wide variety of reasons -- which would comprise the following:<ul><li>No Station Cash Marketplace, or any other RMT</li><li>Soul Shard recovery</li><li>Shared XP debt on a group member's death</li><li>Increased repair costs, with reduced stats & effectiveness from damaged gear</li><li>Restoration of necessary access quests</li><li>Heroic mobs, in linked groups, restored to Antonica, Commonlands, & Nek Forest</li><li>Re-population of Kunark, to reflect greater difficulty: linked heroic mobs & such in appropriate places</li><li>Restoration of Archetype > Class > Sub-class progression & questing</li><li>Sub-combines restored to tradeskilling</li><li>Faction rewards reduced to +150 per writ/quest/what-have-you</li></ul>IMO, on such a server soloing would be difficult at the higher levels, & most people would be grouping at any levels beyond the n00b yards.I think, however, that for a MMO the idea of "perma-death", forced via ruleset, is simply stupid. It's fine for Diablo, but in a MMO, there are simply far too many ways in which a character can die, not only through no fault of his/her own, but through nobody's fault at all, & in fact, not even due to anything that happened "in-world". Lag deaths, dis-connects, & so on all combine to make it pretty much a non-starter. If you want perma-death, enforce it on yourself.Since SOE seems to be he**-bent on pushing Station Cash on us, perhaps it would be nice for them to give us a RMT-free server on which we don't have to put up with the eternally lazy who can't be bothered to earn their toys & have to pull out a credit card, instead. That, alone, would be a nice "hardcore" server.

Deca

12-16-2008, 08:24 PM

You got to love the irony of watching players who claim be in the "majority" of the player base that would not use a permadeath feature explain to the small "minority" who would use permadeath, why they (the minority) don't really need it.The OP has clearly explained it is a roleplaying style; hence, if other's dislike it and find the concept to be anathema to their beloved playstyle(s), then they do not have to employ that feature. He is not attempting to deny or prevent your styles of play. However, those same people are trying to prevent his playstyle.--majority of subscriber base will not use this featureIf every feature in every MMO was forced to pass a litmus test of majority usage....--have that small minority who do want it enforce their own rule of deleting characterthis circumnavigates the in-game features, kudo, accolades etc....while their character was alive in game. There are in game titles for those who achieve X kills or completed certain X number of quests, items which annouce a players skill in crafting, mounts, houses, etc... all add roleplaying, status, goals, acknowledgement & other elements in the game.--this would encourage taking a path of least resistance to avoid death; hence, not hardcoreEven if true, their play style is their own, not yours. However, with the plethora of things out of a players control which could easily cause a death, it would still be goal for many to achieve.--will not experience nor see a large portion of the game content, especially the raidsthis arguement makes the incorrect assumption that his play style is the same as a raid oriented person--if a player is not dying, they are not taking risks because they are not dying.Circular logic ftl--wasting SOE resources spent developing/coding/implementing permadeath featureKunark expansion was a "waste" of SOE resource according to many whereas others loved it. TSO was a waste of SOE resources according to many, whereas others loved it. This list could go on and on. Again, the "waste" of SOW resources is a poor measuring stick to say the least.The OP wants an in-game recognition. He wants to have the challenges of that feature implemented in the game not on the side line like some pen/paper game in which he must personally keep tabs, delete his own character, and not have the role playing benefit of striving and playing under a permadeath rule feature go unacknowledged and unknown. Sure he could create a guild, look for other like minded individuals & group with them. Unfortunately they would then all be a group of like minding people sitting in the same boat wishing for the same feature to be implemented.Edit:Anyone recall the Discord Server in EQ1? If you died, you went back to level 1. They have done it (even if only temporary). So it is not as "far fetched" an idea as everyone is pretending it to be.

Full_Metal_Mage

12-17-2008, 02:35 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do like the idea of a "hard-core" server -- I absolutely think it would have to be done on a different server, for a wide variety of reasons -- which would comprise the following:<ul><li>No Station Cash Marketplace, or any other RMT</li><li>Soul Shard recovery</li><li>Shared XP debt on a group member's death</li><li>Increased repair costs, with reduced stats & effectiveness from damaged gear</li><li>Restoration of necessary access quests</li><li>Heroic mobs, in linked groups, restored to Antonica, Commonlands, & Nek Forest</li><li>Re-population of Kunark, to reflect greater difficulty: linked heroic mobs & such in appropriate places</li><li>Restoration of Archetype > Class > Sub-class progression & questing</li><li>Sub-combines restored to tradeskilling</li><li>Faction rewards reduced to +150 per writ/quest/what-have-you</li></ul>IMO, on such a server soloing would be difficult at the higher levels, & most people would be grouping at any levels beyond the n00b yards.I think, however, that for a MMO the idea of "perma-death", forced via ruleset, is simply stupid. It's fine for Diablo, but in a MMO, there are simply far too many ways in which a character can die, not only through no fault of his/her own, but through nobody's fault at all, & in fact, not even due to anything that happened "in-world". Lag deaths, dis-connects, & so on all combine to make it pretty much a non-starter. If you want perma-death, enforce it on yourself.Since SOE seems to be he**-bent on pushing Station Cash on us, perhaps it would be nice for them to give us a RMT-free server on which we don't have to put up with the eternally lazy who can't be bothered to earn their toys & have to pull out a credit card, instead. That, alone, would be a nice "hardcore" server.</blockquote>You forgot to add<ul><li>No player to player trading of any kind (items or coin), all items are NO TRADE</li><li>No Broker</li></ul>

liveja

12-17-2008, 02:42 PM

<cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do like the idea of a "hard-core" server -- I absolutely think it would have to be done on a different server, for a wide variety of reasons -- which would comprise the following:<ul><li>No Station Cash Marketplace, or any other RMT</li><li>Soul Shard recovery</li><li>Shared XP debt on a group member's death</li><li>Increased repair costs, with reduced stats & effectiveness from damaged gear</li><li>Restoration of necessary access quests</li><li>Heroic mobs, in linked groups, restored to Antonica, Commonlands, & Nek Forest</li><li>Re-population of Kunark, to reflect greater difficulty: linked heroic mobs & such in appropriate places</li><li>Restoration of Archetype > Class > Sub-class progression & questing</li><li>Sub-combines restored to tradeskilling</li><li>Faction rewards reduced to +150 per writ/quest/what-have-you</li></ul>IMO, on such a server soloing would be difficult at the higher levels, & most people would be grouping at any levels beyond the n00b yards.I think, however, that for a MMO the idea of "perma-death", forced via ruleset, is simply stupid. It's fine for Diablo, but in a MMO, there are simply far too many ways in which a character can die, not only through no fault of his/her own, but through nobody's fault at all, & in fact, not even due to anything that happened "in-world". Lag deaths, dis-connects, & so on all combine to make it pretty much a non-starter. If you want perma-death, enforce it on yourself.Since SOE seems to be he**-bent on pushing Station Cash on us, perhaps it would be nice for them to give us a RMT-free server on which we don't have to put up with the eternally lazy who can't be bothered to earn their toys & have to pull out a credit card, instead. That, alone, would be a nice "hardcore" server.</blockquote>You forgot to add<ul><li>No player to player trading of any kind (items or coin), all items are NO TRADE</li><li>No Broker</li></ul></blockquote>I didn't forget to add those to my list. I deliberately didn't add them, because I see no point whatsoever in such restrictions.There is, after all, a reason for a player-based economy -- as opposed to a Station Cash economy.

Full_Metal_Mage

12-17-2008, 03:00 PM

The only way to eliminate RMTs in an MMO today is if you eliminate all forms of player-to-player trading. I would then expect that successful guilds would hire themselves out for guided adventures to help other players obtain their items/updates and the method of payment would be completely outside the game, perhaps through PayPal transactions..Your version of hardcore is basically not hardcore at all. More like quasi-light core.

liveja

12-17-2008, 03:08 PM

<cite>Full_Metal_Mage wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only way to eliminate RMTs in an MMO today is if you eliminate all forms of player-to-player trading.I'd much rather eliminate the lazy, unethical weasels who engage in RMT.Your version of hardcore is basically not hardcore at all.Thus, the reason for my writing "hardcore", i.e., quote-unquote, i.e., so-called.Did you really not understand the quotation marks, & what they mean when used in that fashion? I can only assume did not; if you'd understood them, you'd not have responded at all.</blockquote>

erin

12-17-2008, 03:39 PM

<cite>Deca wrote:</cite><blockquote>You got to love the irony of watching players who claim be in the "majority" of the player base that would not use a permadeath feature explain to the small "minority" who would use permadeath, why they (the minority) don't really need it.The OP has clearly explained it is a roleplaying style; hence, if other's dislike it and find the concept to be anathema to their beloved playstyle(s), then they do not have to employ that feature. He is not attempting to deny or prevent your styles of play. However, those same people are trying to prevent his playstyle.--majority of subscriber base will not use this featureIf every feature in every MMO was forced to pass a litmus test of majority usage....--have that small minority who do want it enforce their own rule of deleting characterthis circumnavigates the in-game features, kudo, accolades etc....while their character was alive in game. There are in game titles for those who achieve X kills or completed certain X number of quests, items which annouce a players skill in crafting, mounts, houses, etc... all add roleplaying, status, goals, acknowledgement & other elements in the game.--this would encourage taking a path of least resistance to avoid death; hence, not hardcoreEven if true, their play style is their own, not yours. However, with the plethora of things out of a players control which could easily cause a death, it would still be goal for many to achieve.--will not experience nor see a large portion of the game content, especially the raidsthis arguement makes the incorrect assumption that his play style is the same as a raid oriented person--if a player is not dying, they are not taking risks because they are not dying.Circular logic ftl--wasting SOE resources spent developing/coding/implementing permadeath featureKunark expansion was a "waste" of SOE resource according to many whereas others loved it. TSO was a waste of SOE resources according to many, whereas others loved it. This list could go on and on. Again, the "waste" of SOW resources is a poor measuring stick to say the least.The OP wants an in-game recognition. He wants to have the challenges of that feature implemented in the game not on the side line like some pen/paper game in which he must personally keep tabs, delete his own character, and not have the role playing benefit of striving and playing under a permadeath rule feature go unacknowledged and unknown. Sure he could create a guild, look for other like minded individuals & group with them. Unfortunately they would then all be a group of like minding people sitting in the same boat wishing for the same feature to be implemented.Edit:Anyone recall the Discord Server in EQ1? If you died, you went back to level 1. They have done it (even if only temporary). So it is not as "far fetched" an idea as everyone is pretending it to be.</blockquote>I get what you are saying but I don't really understand the need for recognition. If you are hard core, you are hard core. People will learn who you are. We got a guy who deletes his character regularly and restarts, same name, so you know who he is if you spend any time on the server. He does it for different reasons. The OP could had "hardcore" as his/her last name or "deletesondeath" or anything to make clear to people what he/she is all about. Put it in your bio. Etc.Its like the mythical. While the first few were a real amazing thing, these days its just "player_100000000 has got their mythical". They get 2, 3 grats and that's the end of it. I'm not saying its not just as important and special to them as it was to the first person, but the recognition really isn't there anymore. Not external recognition.Self-worth comes from within. Achievements are what make you personally proud, not what other people think is cool.

Zehl_Ice-Fire

12-17-2008, 04:56 PM

I don't say things are dumb ideas but.. this is a dumb idea. As others already said, you have what you want, you die, you delete it at character select, and the devs can work on worthy projects instead.I guess you didn't catch on to the whole aspect of the game about learning how to play a class as you level it so that you die less.....As we see by only 2 existing PVP servers, the majority of people in this game do not like to be permanently penalized for death.

Cele

12-17-2008, 05:03 PM

/true confession on:i STILL< to this day, play Diablo II and have a HC toon who is my pride and joy/true confession offYES, I am well aware of what an odd little geek that makes me.

Neiloch

12-17-2008, 06:26 PM

I'll just contest that any play style that would make it so you never die, because your playing 'hardcore' would be nearly the OPPOSITE of hardcore. Sure you've done lots of stuff and never died, meanwhile the guy who goes after the hard stuff and has died could probably mop the floor with you. What I find funny is the hypothetical player/character who did manage to get to the cap and do some of the new content on a perma-death character in EQ2, I wouldn't be impressed, but I could rest assured the person playing is pathetic and doing that is probably the high point in their entire life. I feel the same way when I hear about someone getting to some new level cap in a MMO within a day of it releasing and people are talking about it, I just think 'wow, that's sad'

Alliera

12-17-2008, 08:13 PM

I would not want Option for reasons others have clearly stated LD's and Lag can even cause best connections and players to pull their hair out its not something that can be controlled.

Deca

12-18-2008, 12:14 AM

<cite>Neiloch wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll just contest that any play style that would make it so you never die, because your playing 'hardcore' would be nearly the OPPOSITE of hardcore.</blockquote>So let me get this straight, your best arguement is to rely on using a logical fallacy in a vain & failed attempt at trying to give credibility to your misguided viewpoint?

Deca

12-18-2008, 12:23 AM

<cite>Alliera wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would not want Option for reasons others have clearly stated LD's and Lag can even cause best connections and players to pull their hair out its not something that can be controlled.</blockquote>You've solved your own problem. Option. It would be an option you would not have to implement.There is an Option to disable gaining XP from combat, but you do not have to use it.There is an Option to disable gaining XP from quests, but you do not have to use it.Long ago, people thought it redicules for anyone to even suggest implementing an option to disable XP, but it is in the game (with players using it)There are numerous options in which you have the choice of using or not.The bottom line is that people feel the need to tell the OP that a permadeath option he would like to see in the game not even implemented even though none of them will even use it. Ironic, isn't it.

Deca

12-18-2008, 01:24 AM

<cite>Zehl_Ice-Fire wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't say things are dumb ideas but.. this is a dumb idea. As others already said, you have what you want, you die, you delete it at character select, and the devs can work on worthy projects instead.I guess you didn't catch on to the whole aspect of the game about learning how to play a class as you level it so that you die less.....As we see by only 2 existing PVP servers, the majority of people in this game do not like to be permanently penalized for death.</blockquote>Dumb?Worthy?That's an extremely subjective concept (at best) considering all the threads about Kunark & TSO expansions. There are players on both sides who literally praised one while ranting about cancelling accounts for the other & vice versa. In fact, those debates are still going on.Furthermore, you need to cease trying to base your opinions about what feature should/shouldn't be added to a game based upon majority use. The OP is not talking about having the next entire expansion be nothing but a permadeath feature. It is a feature, not an expansion.Moreover, as I said in another post, they already implemented permadeath on an entire server back for EQ1. Quit making exaggerated remarks about how you "think" everyone plays or how difficult you "think" it might be to implement this feature because they have a-l-r-e-a-d-y done it in EQ1.If you want to go on a crusade against something, take a flag & wave it in the Holy Lands of Station Cash rather than about some obscure feature that won't even impact you should you make the simply decision to --- not use it.<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I get what you are saying but I don't really understand the need for recognition. got a guy who deletes his character regularly and restartsOP could had "hardcore" as his/her last name or "deletesondeath"Put it in your bio. Etc. </blockquote>Sadly, if that is how you see it, then you don't get it.

QuestingCrafter

12-18-2008, 02:39 AM

If the elite ''hardcore'' crowd, is in fact a crowd, I'm certain that the one-hundred thousand of them /feedback'ing their desire for a permadeath mode will be noticed by the QA/Dev people that read /feedback.Certainly, more than a half-dozen squeaky wheels on the forums.Personally, I don't think there's a need to stroke people's ego even more in Norrath, and it'd be a fantastic waste of dev/testing resources to deploy a mode for ... 5%? 2%? 1%? 0.1%? of the EQ2 subscriber base.

erin

12-18-2008, 12:08 PM

<cite>Deca wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I get what you are saying but I don't really understand the need for recognition. got a guy who deletes his character regularly and restartsOP could had "hardcore" as his/her last name or "deletesondeath"Put it in your bio. Etc. </blockquote>Sadly, if that is how you see it, then you don't get it.</blockquote>Then rather than being condescending, why don't you explain it to me?I'm not in favor of dev time being WASTED on something that is already in the game. Its called the delete key.

Axelia

12-18-2008, 03:53 PM

How I see the game ATM is it went from insanely difficult to insanely easy. The reduction of heroic content was not that big of deal to me but the reduction of shard runs and experience loss made the game zero risk so players did not concern themselves with dieing.Players now wanted difficult content so the developers made encounters that would one shot you if you weren't doing some attack or did not have the right buffs. You needed specific builds in the group to survive these encounters so it divided the players into 3 groups instead of just sol, group.Did you know the game has a title for everything under the sun but for those that play to survive? They get nothing in this game for recognition. They probably never will either because the mind set in that if a player is hardcore they won't group and they do the easy stuff.Discord server in EQ1 failed due to game design. Trains were the biggest issue since the mobs always aggroed you on return. They chased you to the zone line and so on. Mobs hung around an area for a period of time and sometimes you zoned into them. A lot of these things were fixed in EQ2 where it may actually work to have such a server but the developers used the Discord fiasco as excuse to not implement one.This is my last say on this subject and the last post I will probably make. My account goes inactive tomorrow. I don't feel EQ2 is going in the direction I want to go especially with a cash shop on top of a P2P so I am taking a break (boycott). Gaming is to be fun and if it is not fun why play?

Azekah1

12-18-2008, 04:06 PM

Only kill red mobs.There you go...hardcore...

Wulfgr

12-18-2008, 05:00 PM

I see where people are coming from. I know in EQ1 if I was far from my bind point, I thought a lot about if I should take on a mob or not. In EQ2, I don't think twice. If I go to a new zone, grab a couple quests that turn out to be orange to me. What the heck if I die I will just be closer to the zone out to try another spot. Sometimes I get the crap kicked out of me sometimes mobs are a cake walk. Last night I was killing mobs 6 to 7 levels higher than me in Bonemire. Full 52 MC armor, Mc weapon and shield. No problems at all. Completed nearly every quest there.This thought intrigues me though and on one snow day I may just try it out. Getting to 60 would be easy, after that it will become more of a challenge, as it seems that wandering aggro mobs become more of an issue.

LygerT

12-18-2008, 05:05 PM

yep, i envision people clicking this option until they lag out and run off a cliff, game over. they then grab their gun and go postal before killing themselves... "happy ending!"

Thunndar316

12-18-2008, 05:33 PM

Fun idea but there are too mant things that can kill you that you can't control.Lag, linkdeaths, stupid pulls, sleeping healers, ect.

Sparxx

12-18-2008, 05:54 PM

<blockquote>Anyone recall the Discord Server in EQ1? If you died, you went back to level 1. They have done it (even if only temporary). So it is not as "far fetched" an idea as everyone is pretending it to be.</blockquote>I do not remember this, I played EQ for a long time, but apparently, I missed this one. Although I did remember the Priests of Discord around all of the cities to where you could turn PvP. Anyway, back to my point. Make no mistake: although this is a game, SOE is a business. If this type of feature existed in EQ1 it is my guess that this was not successful or else it likely would have been brought into EQ2 in some form or another. Being a business, if the cost to develop and implement is greater than the amount of money gained by subscribers who would use these features. It is my guess that this was not the case and that is why the concept was scrapped.The guild idea of like minded players would be a good starting point to attempt to prove to SoE that there is a large enough group of players who would utilize this to make it profitable. Thats my 2c