Tank balance and AOE aggro [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Mogzilla

12-11-2008, 03:37 PM

I would just like to start off by saying I am glad that SOE finally decided to address these issues, and as a bruiser I am pretty happy with most of the changes.That being said, there is one glaring problem with TSO tank balance and it affects 3 out 6 of the tank classes, its AOE aggro.Quite simply the gap between aoe aggro/dps between zerkers/SK/paladins is far to large when compared to supposed "single target tanks" monks/bruisers/guardians aoe aggro.The vision was stated as that some some tanks would be better at single target aggro and others at encounters and aoe aggro.Fine, but the gap in aoe aggro/dps between the aoe tank classes of SK/zerk/paladin vs single target monk/bruiser/guardian is far far larger then the gap in single target aggro beteen the "aoe tanks" and the "single target" tanks.All of the new rescue like abilities in the TSO lines (sneering assault, etc) and the reduced recast times on rescue has done far more to address the "aoe tanks" weakness of holding aggro against a single target dps class (brigand) far more then they have to address the single target tanks weakness of holding aggro against multiple mobs.My zerker and SK guildies only parse roughly about 500 dps less then my bruiser on single targets, but on a bunch of mobs they are always 1-3k dps higher then despite the fact that I have invested every bit of AA points I can into creating aoe dps and aggro.I cant really comment much more on guardian problems as I do not play their class, but as far as brawlers go. I am almost 100% sure of a couple of reasons why we struggle so much in aoe aggro.One reason is that our inate form of hate gain only works on single targets where as plate tanks works on single targets and encounters.For example:SK's get this<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Innoruuk%27s_Caress">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Innoruuk%27s_Caress</a><li>When target is damaged with a melee weapon this spell will cast Caress Feedback on target's attacker. </li><ul><li>Increases Threat to target by X </li><li>Inflicts X disease damage on target </li></ul>Guardians and zerkers both get something similar and well paladins get ammends, which when placed on a aoe dps class (warlock, conj) is god like.Brawlers howerver dont get a threat damage sheild and even if we has one it would not work so well as the whole point of the class is to not get hit (avoidence tanking)To compensate we were given a hate proc buff that procs on a succesful primary melee weapon attack<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Rage">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Rage</a>On single target these two abilities are pretty equal, plate tanks have lower avoidence and better mit, so they get hit more and proc hate, brawlers proc hate on melee attacks.On groups of mobs however the damage sheild proc is vastly superior. Large groups of mobs generally hit for less damage but will hit you more frequently, this works perfectly with the damage sheild hate proc. Pull with you encounter taunt, mobs will hit you a few times getting alot of hate on them.Where as brawlers are only procing hate on the mob they are directly targeting, while the rest of the mobs are getting no hate except for aoe's and encounter taunts (assuming they are even linked)I personally think the brawler taunt proc on melee hit needs to proc hate to the entire encounter and not just the mob being targeted.Another issue with brawlers is that our KOS aoe line is very inferiour compared the other fighter aoe lines.Both crusader and warrior agi lines have an ability so that the fighter has a 40% chance (with max 8 AA) of having their primary weapon hit their surrounding enemies<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dragoon%27s_Cyclone">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dragoon%27s_Cyclone</a><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Trample_%28Crusader%29">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Trample_%28Crusader%29</a>The brawler equivlent from the wis line is very inferiour:Only a 16% chance to proc between 240-401 damage<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crane_Twirl">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crane_Twirl</a>Not only is the % chance to proc much less (40 vs 16), but the damage is way less also when you consider the damage from epic and mythical weapons which can be increased with dsp buffs and crits. My auto attack crits into the 3K range with the right buffs, I know that other plate tanks crit even higher due to the larger damage spreads on their epics.The solution to this is to make crane twirl to be exactly the same as trample and dragoons cyclone, a 40% chance to hit with primary weapon.With all that being said, in no way am I suggesting that the "single target" tanks should be equal to the "aoe tanks", just the gap between aoe tanks and single target tanks in dps/aggro on encounters is far far greater then the dps/aggro gap on single targets and should be closed some.I have no problem with zerkers/sk/paladin being the best aoe tanks, but as of right now most brawlers/guardians seem to be really struggling to hold aggro on mutliple mobs even with hate transfer/gain, but the aoe tanks seem to be doing pretty fine holding aggro on single targets.I dont want aoe tanks to be nerfed, all I want is for brawlers and guardians to be up to a level of aoe dps/aggro just behind the aoe tanks, in a manner that they are just behind us on single targets.Maybee sneering assualt should have been a encounter taunt/aoe damage.It has gotten the point that If I am in a group with a strong aoe class (conj , warlock), I basically tell them they are gonna have to hold back alot on their aoes or as I will not be able hold aggro off them, even with a bard in the group.That isnt any fun for them, nor is it any fun for me, especially in an expansion where 75% of the content is more then one mob.Another way of looking at is like this, a well played aoe dps class (warlock) will still always outdamage my bruiser on single targets, even though aoe dps is their speciality.A well played single target dps class (brigand) will get owned by a zerker or SK in terms of dps on a large group of mobs.

RafaelSmith

12-11-2008, 04:20 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would just like to start off by saying I am glad that SOE finally decided to address these issues, and as a bruiser I am pretty happy with most of the changes.That being said, there is one glaring problem with TSO tank balance and it affects 3 out 6 of the tank classes, its AOE aggro.Quite simply the gap between aoe aggro/dps between zerkers/SK/paladins is far to large when compared to supposed "single target tanks" monks/bruisers/guardians aoe aggro.The vision was stated as that some some tanks would be better at single target aggro and others at encounters and aoe aggro.Fine, but the gap in aoe aggro/dps between the aoe tank classes of SK/zerk/paladin vs single target monk/bruiser/guardian is far far larger then the gap in single target aggro beteen the "aoe tanks" and the "single target" tanks.All of the new rescue like abilities in the TSO lines (sneering assault, etc) and the reduced recast times on rescue has done far more to address the "aoe tanks" weakness of holding aggro against a single target dps class (brigand) far more then they have to address the single target tanks weakness of holding aggro against multiple mobs.My zerker and SK guildies only parse roughly about 500 dps less then my bruiser on single targets, but on a bunch of mobs they are always 1-3k dps higher then despite the fact that I have invested every bit of AA points I can into creating aoe dps and aggro.I cant really comment much more on guardian problems as I do not play their class, but as far as brawlers go. I am almost 100% sure of a couple of reasons why we struggle so much in aoe aggro.One reason is that our inate form of hate gain only works on single targets where as plate tanks works on single targets and encounters.For example:SK's get this<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Innoruuk%27s_Caress">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Innoruuk%27s_Caress</a><li>When target is damaged with a melee weapon this spell will cast Caress Feedback on target's attacker. </li><ul><li>Increases Threat to target by X </li><li>Inflicts X disease damage on target </li></ul>Guardians and zerkers both get something similar and well paladins get ammends, which when placed on a aoe dps class (warlock, conj) is god like.Brawlers howerver dont get a threat damage sheild and even if we has one it would not work so well as the whole point of the class is to not get hit (avoidence tanking)To compensate we were given a hate proc buff that procs on a succesful primary melee weapon attack<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Rage">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Rage</a>On single target these two abilities are pretty equal, plate tanks have lower avoidence and better mit, so they get hit more and proc hate, brawlers proc hate on melee attacks.On groups of mobs however the damage sheild proc is vastly superior. Large groups of mobs generally hit for less damage but will hit you more frequently, this works perfectly with the damage sheild hate proc. Pull with you encounter taunt, mobs will hit you a few times getting alot of hate on them.Where as brawlers are only procing hate on the mob they are directly targeting, while the rest of the mobs are getting no hate except for aoe's and encounter taunts (assuming they are even linked)I personally think the brawler taunt proc on melee hit needs to proc hate to the entire encounter and not just the mob being targeted.Another issue with brawlers is that our KOS aoe line is very inferiour compared the other fighter aoe lines.Both crusader and warrior agi lines have an ability so that the fighter has a 40% chance (with max 8 AA) of having their primary weapon hit their surrounding enemies<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dragoon%27s_Cyclone">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Dragoon%27s_Cyclone</a><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Trample_%28Crusader%29">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Trample_%28Crusader%29</a>The brawler equivlent from the wis line is very inferiour:Only a 16% chance to proc between 240-401 damage<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crane_Twirl">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crane_Twirl</a>Not only is the % chance to proc much less (40 vs 16), but the damage is way less also when you consider the damage from epic and mythical weapons which can be increased with dsp buffs and crits. My auto attack crits into the 3K range with the right buffs, I know that other plate tanks crit even higher due to the larger damage spreads on their epics.The solution to this is to make crane twirl to be exactly the same as trample and dragoons cyclone, a 40% chance to hit with primary weapon.With all that being said, in no way am I suggesting that the "single target" tanks should be equal to the "aoe tanks", just the gap between aoe tanks and single target tanks in dps/aggro on encounters is far far greater then the dps/aggro gap on single targets and should be closed some.I have no problem with zerkers/sk/paladin being the best aoe tanks, but as of right now most brawlers/guardians seem to be really struggling to hold aggro on mutliple mobs even with hate transfer/gain, but the aoe tanks seem to be doing pretty fine holding aggro on single targets.I dont want aoe tanks to be nerfed, all I want is for brawlers and guardians to be up to a level of aoe dps/aggro just behind the aoe tanks, in a manner that they are just behind us on single targets.Maybee sneering assualt should have been a encounter taunt/aoe damage.It has gotten the point that If I am in a group with a strong aoe class (conj , warlock), I basically tell them they are gonna have to hold back alot on their aoes or as I will not be able hold aggro off them, even with a bard in the group.That isnt any fun for them, nor is it any fun for me, especially in an expansion where 75% of the content is more then one mob.Another way of looking at is like this, a well played aoe dps class (warlock) will still always outdamage my bruiser on single targets, even though aoe dps is their speciality.A well played single target dps class (brigand) will get owned by a zerker or SK in terms of dps on a large group of mobs.</blockquote>Agreed. What is out of balance currently with the tank classes are these gaps.I cannot speak much about what issues Brawlers are having...but I can say that as Guard I am struggling with the newer content. I also have to pretty much tell heavy AE group members that they have to not play to their max abiliites. Not fun for anyone. Not only that...but I have to be far more selective on group members...I simply will not enter a TSO instance without some form a hate transfer.This expansion was a double whammy....first the AE tanks got buffed. Guardians didnt necessarily get nerfed..we just didnt get buffed at all. So now the AE tanks are equal or almost as good as single target tanks while the single target tanks do not even come close in AE aggro. Then the content was built for AE tanks....not just because they have good AE aggro but also they have great DPS...which is very important in these instances.Truth be told I think SKs are currently about where I think all fighters should be. They can serve any MT role required and even when they are not serving the MT role they have alot to offer an contribute. Of all the fighters, Guardians have the least...in fact...nothing to contribute outside of the MT role.

Gisallo

12-11-2008, 04:25 PM

Simple answer its impossible to balance. Anything that is AoE appilicable is Single target applicable. Bring up single target aggro ability and you bring up Single target aggro (with the way SOE has been doing things) because you KNOW that the word "aggro" is code for "dps". The idea of changing the balance to single target/AoE is possibly a failing proposition.examples of how this would happen and not be adequete.add AoE effect to current single target abilities and you get one of 2 things. Either the current faster cool down and lower power costs of Single target abilities with a new AoE component. Balance now off advantage to Single target tanks.add the extra reuse and power to single target abilities since they now have AoE capability. Single target ability of single target tank reduced even further while now their AoE component doesn't lag as far behind.other option reduce the abilities of the AoE tank. Do this and their single target ability is reduced (some of that signle target aggro comes from using AoE abilities). Again imbalance still exits, only swapped to Single target advantage. Since even AoE tanks have to be relevant to a single target encounter, reducing their current single target ability is not really doable, so with the current balancing act I do not see a way to fix it?

Gisallo

12-11-2008, 04:26 PM

dupe post

Dasein

12-11-2008, 04:36 PM

They should get rid of the entire distinction between single-target and AOE tanks, and give all tanks the ability to do both, perhaps with stances. Defensive stance would be geared towards tanking a single, strong opponent, like a raid encounter or named mob, while the offensive stance would be geared towards tanking multiple, weaker encounters.

Mogzilla

12-11-2008, 04:43 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simple answer its impossible to balance. Anything that is AoE appilicable is Single target applicable. Bring up single target aggro ability and you bring up Single target aggro (with the way SOE has been doing things) because you KNOW that the word "aggro" is code for "dps". The idea of changing the balance to single target/AoE is possibly a failing proposition.That is completely false. My bruiser has 3 blue aoe's with AA's. I only cast one of them against a single target, because casting the other 2 against a single target is actually less dps due to how weak they are and how much they interupt my auto attack due to their longer cast times. And even then I only cast my 1 blue aoe when my single target stuff is refreshing and even then sometimes I dont because if I get adds I want it to be up. The other aoes only get cast when I have more then one mob around or they = less dps.examples of how this would happen and not be adequete.add AoE effect to current single target abilities and you get one of 2 things. Either the current faster cool down and lower power costs of Single target abilities with a new AoE component. Balance now off advantage to Single target tanks.add the extra reuse and power to single target abilities since they now have AoE capability. Single target ability of single target tank reduced even further while now their AoE component doesn't lag as far behind.Um what? Both of the things I talked about buffs the give brawlers a proc. One I asked to be made the exact same as the other fighters (dragoons cyclone and trample) and the other one to be made an encounter proc instead of a single target proc. Power and cool downs are totally irrelevent.. Since even AoE tanks have to be relevant to a single target encounter,But single target tanks should not be relevent to encounters?Like I said, single target aggro for all tanks is not that much different, but the differences in aoe aggro are enourmous.Zerkers/paladins/SK's can be viable MT's on single targets, maybee not as easily as guardians or brawlers, but they can do the job.Right now I would not use a brawler or guardian on any encounter that requires picking up alot of adds quickly and holding aggro against a high aoe dps classes.</blockquote>

Norrsken

12-11-2008, 04:59 PM

I notice you avoided to say how much the on melee damage hate thingy for SKs does.something like 76 damage and 100 hate. On melee attacks. Whoptedoo.As for the guardian sayingt hings about hate issues. Welcome to the rest of the tanks. Hate isnt supposed to be rock solid without hate transfers. It makes it a richer game when youc ant unload everyting you have just because a tank is in the group with perfect impunity.Hate and aggro control is everyones responsibility, not just the tank.

Yimway

12-11-2008, 05:09 PM

<cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hate and aggro control is everyones responsibility, not just the tank.</blockquote>Perhaps it should be, but we've been raiding for 3-4 years now since it was anyone else's responsibility.Players are attuned to speed kills with little to no holding back. Taking this long to change it is certainly going to have it's growing pains.However, currently, there are tank classes that can hold people not holding back, they just aren't the same tank classes they were last expansion.Tank classes finally get a taste of FOTM syndrome.

Mogzilla

12-11-2008, 05:20 PM

<cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I notice you avoided to say how much the on melee damage hate thingy for SKs does.something like 76 damage and 100 hate. On melee attacks. Whoptedoo.Its 123 hate / 49 damage= 172 hate at M1, with 5 AA it becomes 154 hate / 49 = 200 hate.200 hate is 200 hate and when being wacked on my 5 different mobs it multiplies into alot of hate.As for the guardian sayingt hings about hate issues. Welcome to the rest of the tanks. Hate isnt supposed to be rock solid without hate transfers. It makes it a richer game when youc ant unload everyting you have just because a tank is in the group with perfect impunity.Hate and aggro control is everyones responsibility, not just the tank.The point is, the gap between SK/zerker/pally aoe aggro and brawler/guard aoe aggro is huge. The gap between Sk/zerker/pally single target aggor and brawler/gaurdian single target aggro is small to non existant.The aoe tanks can be viable single target tanks, it just takes a bit more work. I am not sure the single target tanks can be viable aoe tanks with any amount of work. Monks especially.</blockquote>

Norrsken

12-11-2008, 05:27 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I notice you avoided to say how much the on melee damage hate thingy for SKs does.something like 76 damage and 100 hate. On melee attacks. Whoptedoo.Its 123 hate / 49 damage= 172 hate at M1, with 5 AA it becomes 154 hate / 49 = 200 hate.200 hate is 200 hate and when being wacked on my 5 different mobs it multiplies into alot of hate.As for the guardian sayingt hings about hate issues. Welcome to the rest of the tanks. Hate isnt supposed to be rock solid without hate transfers. It makes it a richer game when youc ant unload everyting you have just because a tank is in the group with perfect impunity.Hate and aggro control is everyones responsibility, not just the tank.The point is, the gap between SK/zerker/pally aoe aggro and brawler/guard aoe aggro is huge. The gap between Sk/zerker/pally single target aggor and brawler/gaurdian single target aggro is small to non existant.The aoe tanks can be viable single target tanks, it just takes a bit more work. I am not sure the single target tanks can be viable aoe tanks with any amount of work. Monks especially.</blockquote></blockquote>200 hate every melee attack. Mobs attack slowly. Over longer fights it does add up, but VS encounters its over so fast you really dont notice the difference with Innoruks caress. 200 hate every 3 seconds is 70 hate per second. compared to what dps classes pump out that is not really gonna matter much.And did you try to play an AE hate class and hold aggro vs single target dps without any hate transfer? I lose aggro a lot.

Norrsken

12-11-2008, 05:29 PM

mr23sgte

12-11-2008, 05:40 PM

<cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I notice you avoided to say how much the on melee damage hate thingy for SKs does.something like 76 damage and 100 hate. On melee attacks. Whoptedoo.As for the guardian sayingt hings about hate issues. Welcome to the rest of the tanks. Hate isnt supposed to be rock solid without hate transfers. It makes it a richer game when youc ant unload everyting you have just because a tank is in the group with perfect impunity.Hate and aggro control is everyones responsibility, not just the tank.</blockquote>Atleast your taunts do damage - Monk Taunts = no added damage

Mogzilla

12-11-2008, 05:40 PM

<cite><a>/</a><a>Ulvhamne@Nagafen</a> wrote:</cite><blockquote>200 hate every melee attack. Mobs attack slowly. Over longer fights it does add up, but VS encounters its over so fast you really dont notice the difference with Innoruks caress. 200 hate every 3 seconds is 70 hate per second. compared to what dps classes pump out that is not really gonna matter much.Not on a single target mob, not but against a large group of them it defineatly helps.And did you try to play an AE hate class and hold aggro vs single target dps without any hate transfer? I lose aggro a lot. I have to work hard to hold aggro on single target mobs. I can do it, but I cant tab around to make it better as say, monks can for their AE aggro./shrug my experience is different, I have seen zerkers and SK's (since the changes mind you) do ok holding aggro on single targets, heck your dps is probably only a bit behind my bruisers single target, roughly 500dps.But on encounters your dps blows mine out of the water, at least 1-2 k or more. Also the tab method only works on 2-3 mobs at teh most, any more then that and the mage is dead before you can get the aggro back</blockquote>I am not hating on SK's or zerkers, in fact if you look at my post history you can see that in the last expansion I was a cheerleader for them getting some love and I am glad they did.That being said, I currently see a large imbalance in aoe aggro between sk's/zerkers/pallys vs brawlers/guardians that I feel needs addressed.Do I think guards and brawlers should have more or teh same aoe dps as the other tanks? The answer is no, it would not be balanced.But the current set up favors sks, zerkers, and paladins by so much, given that 75% of teh content in this expansion is one mob, its a bit unbalanced.I dont want anyone nerfed, just a few tweaks here and there to bring things a bit more into balance. Kinda like TSO did for zerks and SKs

Kordran

12-11-2008, 05:43 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians and zerkers both get something similar and well paladins get ammends, which when placed on a aoe dps class (warlock, conj) is god like.</blockquote>I play both a Guardian and Paladin, and I agree that Guardians (and presumably brawlers here) could use some help. But Amends is only "god like" if you have a DPS class who knows what they're doing, and have higher output. I have M1 Amends, have dropped it on our Warlock and still have had to fight to hold aggro from the Brigand and Wizard in the group who were pumping out a lot of front-loaded damage. And in T8 raids, the only way that Amends is "god like" is if you have an absolutely terrible scout and mage group. If they're putting out any kind of numbers, Paladins do have to work for it, trust me.Atan is right. DPS classes have gotten used to just being able to unload from start to finish, maximizing their damage output and letting the tank deal with the aggro issues.

RafaelSmith

12-11-2008, 05:49 PM

Just thinking here...since I just recently came back to the game so have no idea what was and was not considered by SOE in the past.But.....what about making Moderate a group buff? Its not a hate transfer so we still would have to work at keeping the mob(s). Would lesson the burdon in groups and since MT groups on raids are already designed to maximize the threat for the MT it would not make much difference there.I know that I notice a difference when I moderate a high DPS class...they still can yank aggro..especially if I am not doing my job correctly...but thats how it should be.

Yimway

12-11-2008, 05:53 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know that I notice a difference when I moderate a high DPS class...they still can yank aggro..especially if I am not doing my job correctly...but thats how it should be.</blockquote>I'd prefer to my taunts to crit on the melee crit chance and have a base hit of 4-8k. I should be able to front load hate the same way a wiz can frontload dps if he chooses to.Taunts that land for 1300-1800 and have a 50% resist chance and 0% crit chance are a joke compared to CA's that land for 1800-2800 base damage have a 60% crit rate, and a 10% resist chance.Care to take a guess how aggro is managed?Anyway, no point in parlaying this topic until after the next GU.

Gisallo

12-11-2008, 06:09 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Um what? Both of the things I talked about buffs the give brawlers a proc. One I asked to be made the exact same as the other fighters (dragoons cyclone and trample) and the other one to be made an encounter proc instead of a single target proc. Power and cool downs are totally irrelevent.the thing is though, what makes AoE tanks really AoE tanks right now is not buffs, its CA's with a high power cost everytime its cast. If you "fix" a class by changing buffs, then you make them more efficient and thus create a further imbalance. If one class can do almost as good a job as another with higher efficiency they will have a distinct advantage even if the HPS DPS whatever is slightly less. . Since even AoE tanks have to be relevant to a single target encounter,But single target tanks should not be relevent to encounters?I agree all tanks should be relevant. I just think we need to eliminate the "single target" vs "aoe" balancing act. Make all classes equal in terms of AE and single target aggro management and simply make one more offensive/defensive than the other. In this way you also deal with the efficiency issue. Yeah maybe it takes a healer a little more power to keep an offensive tank up BUT if that same tank can burn down the mobs a little faster the dps classes don't use as much power so its a wash. This I think is easier to balance. The problem before was that the "defensive" tanks used to be like the fighter equivelent of a Templar...take forever to die, take forever to kill anything...in a solo environement. They gave them a dps boost to deal with this and so the old balance got goofed. Now rather than restoring the balance they changed it and made most of the new instances (raids are still folowing the old patern largely) AE to add insult to injury.Like I said, single target aggro for all tanks is not that much different, but the differences in aoe aggro are enourmous.Zerkers/paladins/SK's can be viable MT's on single targets, maybee not as easily as guardians or brawlers, but they can do the job.Now... this was not the case before (at least with Zerkers) in terms of surviveability and efficiency. Even with this problem. I think the biggest hurdle is going to be the transition from hps to dps. I don't care what people are saying now, but come fighter 2.0 I think they are still going to complain even if by some miracle single/target vs AoE aggro is fixed. If I understand fighter 2.0, fighter dps is staying the same, they are just going to buff taunts where they feel it is needed. Aeralik wants to make us all more raw aggro based and less dps based. You could give all of the single target tanks hate gen abilities to make aggro in an AE encounter more balanced. Many will then complain that "my dps still stinks", "I didn't roll this toon to be a taunt bot" etc. I understand this is a harder fix to get SOE to do believe me. Because of this people either say A) well this is the way they are balancing it so we are going to argue for changes regardless of whether they create a different imbalance bacause at least this imbalance will benefit my class or B) they simply deny the reality of it all. </blockquote></blockquote>

Mogzilla

12-11-2008, 06:28 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Um what? Both of the things I talked about buffs the give brawlers a proc. One I asked to be made the exact same as the other fighters (dragoons cyclone and trample) and the other one to be made an encounter proc instead of a single target proc. Power and cool downs are totally irrelevent.the thing is though, what makes AoE tanks really AoE tanks right now is not buffs, its CA's with a high power cost everytime its cast. If you "fix" a class by changing buffs, then you make them more efficient and thus create a further imbalance. If one class can do almost as good a job as another with higher efficiency they will have a distinct advantage even if the HPS DPS whatever is slightly less. I dont think you know what you are talking about. Look up dragoons cyclone, trample, and crane twirl from the fighter KOS AA lines.Dragoons cyclone and trample are the same, a 40% chance (with 8 AA) to hit 4 targets with primary melee weapon.Crane twirl (brawler) is 16% chance to proc 200-400 damage. Who's auto attack hits that low at level 80? Nobody. All I asked for is for crane twirl to be the same as trample and dragoons cyclone. Do you seriously think 40% chance to auto attack with dps mods and crits is as good as a 16% chance to proc 200-400 damage? Get real.. Since even AoE tanks have to be relevant to a single target encounter,But single target tanks should not be relevent to encounters?I agree all tanks should be relevant. I just think we need to eliminate the "single target" vs "aoe" balancing act. Make all classes equal in terms of AE and single target aggro management and simply make one more offensive/defensive than the other. In this way you also deal with the efficiency issue. Yeah maybe it takes a healer a little more power to keep an offensive tank up BUT if that same tank can burn down the mobs a little faster the dps classes don't use as much power so its a wash. This I think is easier to balance. The problem before was that the "defensive" tanks used to be like the fighter equivelent of a Templar...take forever to die, take forever to kill anything...in a solo environement. They gave them a dps boost to deal with this and so the old balance got goofed. Now rather than restoring the balance they changed it and made most of the new instances (raids are still folowing the old patern largely) AE to add insult to injury.Ok, fine, but since brawlers have the least surviability then they should have the most dps. Are you gonna cry when you see a monk out dpsing you on mulit targets?Like I said, single target aggro for all tanks is not that much different, but the differences in aoe aggro are enourmous.Zerkers/paladins/SK's can be viable MT's on single targets, maybee not as easily as guardians or brawlers, but they can do the job.Now... this was not the case before (at least with Zerkers) in terms of surviveability and efficiency. Bull, I saw both zerkers and SK MT high end raids and hold aggro and survive, it may have been a bit harder, but it was possible.Even with this problem. I think the biggest hurdle is going to be the transition from hps to dps. I don't care what people are saying now, but come fighter 2.0 I think they are still going to complain even if by some miracle single/target vs AoE aggro is fixed. If I understand fighter 2.0, fighter dps is staying the same, they are just going to buff taunts where they feel it is needed. Aeralik wants to make us all more raw aggro based and less dps based. You could give all of the single target tanks hate gen abilities to make aggro in an AE encounter more balanced. Many will then complain that "my dps still stinks", "I didn't roll this toon to be a taunt bot" etc. I understand this is a harder fix to get SOE to do believe me. Because of this people either say A) well this is the way they are balancing it so we are going to argue for changes regardless of whether they create a different imbalance bacause at least this imbalance will benefit my class or B) they simply deny the reality of it all. </blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

circusgirl

12-11-2008, 08:54 PM

Mog really has a great idea here--the two changes he suggested, making dragon rage an encounter-wide proc and turning crane twirl into an AE autoattack would go a long way towards fixing brawlers. Guardians need a similar fix, I think. Attention seriously needs to be paid to AE aggro in Guardians/Monks since the surviveability and dps capability spectrum is horribly skewed in TSO (i.e., SKs, paladins, and zerkers outparse the heck out of brawlers in TSO despite having better surviveability). I don't know what would fix guardians, since I don't play one though. Any suggestions?

Crismorn

12-11-2008, 09:23 PM

The tab key is located close to your left hand right beside the letter q.your welcome

Mogzilla

12-11-2008, 11:27 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>The tab key is located close to your left hand right beside the letter q.your welcome</blockquote>I can tell you have never tanked before.

thial

12-12-2008, 03:00 AM

The whole AoE/single target tank idea is horrible almost as horrible as the mit curve. The way I see it and I've said this in beta and I'll say it again all tanks plate or leather should be able to hold single target or ae agro efficiently through hate/taunt zerks and sk's should have the edge on AE encounters from DPS out put. It should be DPS/Taunt tanks not AoE/single target. You put a guard/pally against 8 mobs the guard/pally should be able to hold those 8 mobs using the giving abilities till they are dead the fight takes say 20 seconds now you put the same encounter on a zerk or sk using there giving abilities they hold the agro just the same but because the zerk/sk have more DPS the fight lasts 10 seconds. Now both tanks got the job done one was faster than the other but both where efficient. The guard/pally have more defense to out last the longer fight. We have always known that sk's(sk's did need the love that they got in tso to balance them)zerks and even pallys have had better AoE agro than guards/brawlers. It was never a true issue due to lack of AE content although pre tso it was apparent in zones like RE2. Now that there are much more multi mob encounters AoE agro issues are more apparent and need to be addressed. Running my guard with 40% AE auto attack, moderate on the lock or conjy even wizzy, making sure the mobs are all stacked in front of me so the auto attack will hit, using all my AoE abilities which are all master still causes trouble with ae agro which in turn causes not so fun game play. I'm not asking for a one hit ability to lock agro but I want to be able to use the tools I have to get the job done and its just not that way. I put a lot of thought into this post to try and not upset any of the AoE/DPS tanks but at the same time you guys need to realize this was a balance for all fighters not zerkers/sk's and in the end all fighters should be happy and its just not the case atm. I didn't touch base on brawlers as I don't know enough about the class to do so. I do have experience with the pally and a well played pally can survive in both AE and single target worlds efficiently. Basically what I would like to see is an increase to base taunt amounts to all fighter taunts, taunt procs, adornments and items with + taunt amounts. I know fighter balance 2.0 as its called is coming soon and I like the idea of straggling away from DPS for agro management. With the rebalance I hope taunt amounts are increased fairly. The next ramble is about my guard and guards general AE agro management to give people that don't play guards a better idea of what we are working with what changes I think would be good and who knows maybe someone will have some positive suggestions for me. AA spec for heroic content is below for raids I drop AGI for INT as its the OT's job to handle adds but the added AE agro is needed for heroic content. warrior str: 4-4-8-8 agi 4-4-8-8 sta 4-4-8-5 guardian tree: I took a lot of points out to get tso AA but I have 41 points here for the CA damage increases and the recast reducers to rescue and reinforcement shadow tree: I'm not at 170 so I cant get a lot of the guard stuff unfortunately but only one line in there would help with AoE agro if I choose to use it. 5 in defense, 5 in swing, 5 in dr, 1 in sneering 5 in cry, 5 in shield bash, 5 in aggressive nature, 1 in cry of the warrior here's what my guard gets for AoE agro. the CA values are what my guard has in defensive stance and current STR(my guards only missing 3 masters none of which relate to AE agro) "guard master 1" increase threat to target encounter 1,542-1,879, 20 second recast and 0.25 casting time even with the 8 points in str 4 the base taunt amount is far to low at min should be 2k+ retro fitted to all fighters so the "AoE tanks" still have there edge since all fighters(not sure about brawlers sorry) have a similar ability. "slanderous assault mater 1" 372-619 melee damage on target encounter increase threat to target encounter 1,583, 30 second recast and 2 seconds casting time. Takes to long to cast interferes with single target agro my idea take the tso AA that affects siege and make it affect this CA instead and also add an increase to the hate amount "siege master 1" 771-1226 melee damage max 8 targets in area 5 meter range casting 1.5 seconds recast 30 seconds I have not got 170+ AA yet so I am unable to put AA points in this for the added damage and reduce casting, when I do it should help some but I don't see it balancing things out. would like to see a base damage of about 1k+ without the AA "Immobility master 1" roots caster and targets in area for 8.8 seconds decreases casters attack speed and attack/dps of targets it hits affect epics with immunity durations casting 1 second recast 1 min. Useful spell for keeping mobs in place really does nota for hate. It can help with hold the aggression and cyclone to keep the mobs beating on you and in range since when a mob is rooted it will target the closes pc to it regardless of hate position but an AE or auto attack can break the short root. I would request some initial damage or hate on the CA and maybe a longer duration. "wall of armor master 1" short term mit buff I mention this one because of the root affect much like immobility The AA that adds shield effectiveness I guess could help generate more agro from hold the aggression with the block AA but its minimal and points could be spent else where really no changes needed here to the buffs its self but changing the tso AA to something else would be nice, very doubtful though. dragoon spin from agi 2: 406-669 with 4 points casting 1 second recast 45 seconds. generally used with reinforcement as a sort of ae rescue I was thinking of putting 8 points here and taking 4 points out of agi 4 since I'm at 70% avoid the extra damage might make it more usable with out reinforcement. I wouldn't request and changes here from soe Dragoon cyclone: 40% chance for auto attack to hit up to 4 mobs in front of the warrior with 8 points spent maybe increase the amount of mobs you can hit but if that was done than soe would have to change the zerker ability to affect more than 4 targets as I'm told it does which I don't think anyone would complain about. Hold the aggression master 1 when hit 50% chance to increase threat by 797 with tso AA it adds on a successful block increases threat to target by 560-685. This buff has so much potential. For the standard part of the buff it would work a lot better if guards didn't have to chase avoidance to achieve the damage reduction we want. If I could sit at 50% avoidance but have 70% mitigation(self buffed) this would proc a lot more and my damage intake would be about the same as it is now just I would get hit more and generate more agro. The AA part of the buff is nice but it does no good when duel wielding as its on a successful block, If I parry or if the mob misses it does nota(correct me if I'm wrong please). I wouldn't request any changes on this buff besides maybe increases in the hate amounts. What would help this buff be more affective is raising the mitigation curve or just removing the curve completely. maybe I spent to much time on this started to get tired hope it makes sense

Gisallo

12-12-2008, 04:53 AM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>I dont think you know what you are talking about. Look up dragoons cyclone, trample, and crane twirl from the fighter KOS AA lines.Dragoons cyclone and trample are the same, a 40% chance (with 8 AA) to hit 4 targets with primary melee weapon.Crane twirl (brawler) is 16% chance to proc 200-400 damage. Who's auto attack hits that low at level 80? Nobody. All I asked for is for crane twirl to be the same as trample and dragoons cyclone. Do you seriously think 40% chance to auto attack with dps mods and crits is as good as a 16% chance to proc 200-400 damage? Get real.I do understand Dragoon cyclone. Its in my tree. Thing is though you spec Agility then you take a hit in either A) over all dps B) surviveability C) aggro generation or D) all of the above. Now some Guards have respeced to the Agility line and it has made them better in AE instances on multi mobs, BUT then on the big names they still have a few issues and in a raid forget about it. Trample that is indeed nice, I will be honest and say I do not know how common it is for Crusanders to spec down the Agility Line though. I was/am largely ignorant on brawlers, so A) don't know how common a spec it is but even it is common AND if they made the ability to be the same, I fail to see how this ability would make up the thousands of points difference in dps that you are noteing.Ok, fine, but since brawlers have the least surviability then they should have the most dps. Are you gonna cry when you see a monk out dpsing you on mulit targets?Nope I would neither have a problem with that, nor even with Brawler avoidance being given a little boost to make them more surviveable, or given more utility whatever. I think half the problem with the class is regardless of what Aeralik says, they really don't know what to do with the class. I think the nerfing of the Monks raid wide, the changes to avoidance in general (in light of the fact a Brawler is an "Avoidance" tank) and the fact they really haven't even made one type of Brawler firmly fit into the Single Target/AE equation one way or the other is proof of that. Once (IF) they figure out what they want the Brawler to be, they should get much love. Like I said, single target aggro for all tanks is not that much different, but the differences in aoe aggro are enourmous.Zerkers/paladins/SK's can be viable MT's on single targets, maybee not as easily as guardians or brawlers, but they can do the job.Now... this was not the case before (at least with Zerkers) in terms of surviveability and efficiency. Bull, I saw both zerkers and SK MT high end raids and hold aggro and survive, it may have been a bit harder, but it was possible.The point was the same one you are making now dude, don't be a hypocrite. I saw the same thing as well. The MT in my Guild for the longest time was an SK. He tanked everything up to VP. The point is the damage advantage was no where NEAR the survival and aggro management edge the Guardian had under the old paradigm. I understand Brawlers have had the shaft for at least as long as any other class, but you are seriously getting blinded. On paper Guards owned them, thus they were not given a chance. What made the difference with the SK I noted was that he was an original member of the Guild, was thus given a chance, was thus geared up with the BEST gear the zones could buy. He also happens to be one of, if not THE best (in a technical sense) SK on LdL. Even he was nervous though and understood the limits of the class, because he virtually ran off ANY other tank that entered the guild (except our off tank obviously). A Guardian was a class where you could be "good" with good group memebers and do a good job on the harder content. Conversely you could be great and get by with so so people in your group. Sks and zerkers were classes where you had to be great AND have great people supporting you in the group. Clearly you never never saw the "Looking for tank for Maidens" sent an "80 Zerker" Response and got back "we are really looking for a Guardian, get back with ya if we can't find one" Trust me it was reality...not bull. </blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

Illine

12-12-2008, 09:44 AM

I think one of the changes to make some AE tanks and single target tanks was to make differences and specialise tanks like the dps.every tank should be able to tank but each tank would be better at tanking one thing than the other. it's good on the paper make less good live.I did Guk outter stronghold yesterday and there are many waves of mob. they stun, the KB and our zerk was having sometimes troubles at keeping aggro on all mobs. In our group we had zerk, mystic, warden, conju, assassin and coercer.I would'nt even imagine how could brawlers and gardians keep aggro on all those mobs when you have 6 mobs hitting you and chain stunning you, it must not be fun. And if you have no tool to gain passive hate (like bruisers, you gain hate by hitting, not by being hit) then you have a hard time building up hate when you can move. Now sure, zerk and SK should be less good at keeping aggro from a single target. Their AE tools are longuer to cast and give less aggro than a single target taunt, but even if it's more difficult or cost more mana, they can deal with it. While single target tanks only have few taunt and can't chain taunt every mob. plus you have to focus on one mob to kill him and then go to the other.tab is good, but you don't have 6 single target taunts to cast on 6 targets, the recast is long.but making taunt have the same crit% as melee attacks is a good idea <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... it will help a lot I think

Aull

12-12-2008, 10:45 AM

I understand that guards and brawlers are having ae control/aggro/dps trouble in TSO, but these ae issuses were bad with them years before TSO was ever dreamed of or at least that is what I remember. I am not trying to be punny either but after reading all the beta testing posts I seen this coming. I think what makes this ae control such an issue is that ROK as you all know had a huge lack of ae fights. After a full year of becomming accustomed to the ROK environment and now this TSO with all the stuns, stifles, KB's, plus ae fights has left many guards and brawlers scratching their heads.I don't think that guards and brawlers will be given any assistance in the ae control dept any time soon from what I have been reading. I do like some of the ideas here like some hold aggro single or ae through taunts/abilities where others use dps/taunts to do the same. I also agree with Mogzilla about how single target dps between the fighters is not that huge of a spread where the ae tanks dps in ae fights has a monumental spread vs the other fighters.

Mogzilla

12-12-2008, 11:06 AM

<cite><a href="mailto:Gisallo@Lucan">Gisallo@Lucan</a> DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> I fail to see how this ability would make up the thousands of points difference in dps that you are noteing.It would not "make up the difference" on its own, but it would be a start. Once (IF) they figure out what they want the Brawler to be, they should get much love. Um yeah, I wont be holding my breath. Clearly you never never saw the "Looking for tank for Maidens" sent an "80 Zerker" Response and got back "we are really looking for a Guardian, get back with ya if we can't find one" Trust me it was reality...not bull. Lol, what kind responces do you think I got when I sent tells saying that my 80 bruiser was available? Blah, blah grp LF plate tank, etc, etc. I had to make my own RE2 groups or I would have never set foot in the zone. I have had healers leave my groups after I told them I was tanking, simply because I was a bruiser.All tank classes struggled in ROK behind guardians and paladins.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

CrazyMoogle

12-12-2008, 11:08 AM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>They should get rid of the entire distinction between single-target and AOE tanks, and give all tanks the ability to do both</blockquote>I agree with this completely. My Guardian is just an alt and so really only legendaried geared with the occassional fabled item, but the same problems I have on the guardian are the exact same problems I see other completely raid geared guardians having.It's stupid to have hate and aggro be such a big issue like this...gotta have the perfect combination of gear, and AAs, and proper classes, and hate boosters, and dehates, and blah blah blah. That's stupid.A tank classes job is to tank. Give them the tools to keep the mob on them so other classes can do their jobs. It doesn't have to be about DPS. In fact, I'd be perfectly happy to see my Guardian's dps cut in half if it meant I got some tools that made it so hated that the mob went crazy with bloodlust when I got near it. I want that mob to hate me so bad that he's made it his mission in life to attack me with his every last breath, try to kill me, then hunt down my children and grand children and try to slaughter them mercilessly. I want the mob to hate me that bad.Current aggro-management in this game is stupid.

Mogzilla

12-12-2008, 11:25 AM

<cite>Khayleigh@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>Current aggro-management in this game is stupid.</blockquote>I agree for the most part.Tying aggro to dps was not a very good idea imo.If you give tanks the dps to hold aggro the scouts and mages start crying that we do to much dps.As it is now tanks have to try to get a manage their gear for both aggro and survivability, an almost impossible task sometimes because not every group is the same. I have been in groups where the healers were not very good and I had switch out gear just to stay up and in groups where the dps classes were extremely good and I had to put on my dps gear and tank in my offensive stance just to keep aggro. I also tend to make my own groups and I can tell you this I rarely invite certain classes because I so often need certain support classes just to make things work. Tanks really shoudl be given the tools to hold aggro more on their own both single target and aoe. I should not have to have a 2-3 hate transfers/gain classes in my group just run certain instances.

mr23sgte

12-12-2008, 11:31 AM

Before I start seeing posts on how much better single DPS Brawlers are ..blah blah ...thats why we shouldn't be allowed to have good AE aggro --- I wanted to add BOTH the guild Zerkers were outparsing me on the Palace Void Beast SINGLE TARGET ENCOUNTERS LAST NIGHT. I was around 6k - they were 6800+ -- Not asking a nerf call, just throwing the B.S. flag on that single target garbage.I was stuck in the mage group though but with the caps I don't think it was a huge group inbalance: I had 200 haste/168 when proc for DPS/ 50% DA and about 60-105 crit when GI proc.Granted one Zerker has 200AA, BUT since only one of my MONK AA's adds any DPS (that being minimal) - I do not seeing this AA difference have much difference.

vinere

12-12-2008, 04:54 PM

A quick fix, is to just make most AE hate abilitys, and such, not effect you current target, just the rest of the enounter. First do this, and then you are able to effectivly balance AE aggro, and single target aggro for both classes.

Gisallo

12-12-2008, 06:04 PM

Gisallo

12-12-2008, 06:12 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>Lol, what kind responces do you think I got when I sent tells saying that my 80 bruiser was available? Blah, blah grp LF plate tank, etc, etc. I had to make my own RE2 groups or I would have never set foot in the zone. I have had healers leave my groups after I told them I was tanking, simply because I was a bruiser.All tank classes struggled in ROK behind guardians and paladins.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>Okay but you said..... "Bull, I saw both zerkers and SK MT high end raids and hold aggro and survive, it may have been a bit harder, but it was possible"don't you see how this is contradicted by"All tank classes struggled in ROK behind guardians and paladins."That was what I was commenting on. I completely agree with you regarding brawlers. My entire point is that you seem to always point out the fact the Brawler was on the back foot then try to rationalize why none of the others were not. What basically has happened is that two of the classes were behind (zerks and SKs) were brought up. The Brawlers regretably were not. This stinks I agree they should have been brought up. BUT I pointed out why they probably haven't been already and until those issues are dealt with I don't see much light at the end of the tunnel. I know it stinks, its like me and my Ranger saying "well until the class dev is not an Assassin we are done." Well with Brawlers its "until SOE AND the Brawler community figure out what we are...we are done."

Gisallo

12-12-2008, 06:12 PM

thial

12-12-2008, 08:13 PM

<cite>vinere wrote:</cite><blockquote>A quick fix, is to just make most AE hate abilitys, and such, not effect you current target, just the rest of the enounter. First do this, and then you are able to effectivly balance AE aggro, and single target aggro for both classes.</blockquote>So the tank will just target themslef and be able to agro all the mobs? this would be a bad "fix" the idea is not to nerf other classes but balance it out. I did a little research today on all tanks group taunt and what I found was kind of disturbing here are the stats of each tanks master one taunt. Every tank has 1542-1879 hate for there group taunt BUT the SK taunt is 2,450-2,988 why does only the sk group taunt have such high values am i missing something? Both crusador taunts decrease the respected resist both warrior taunts can be used while stuned/stiffled both bralwer taunts interupt the encounter yet the SK has a huge hate amount over ALL the fighters......granted I have the 24% increase to taunt amounts but as u can see it shows that calculation into all the class taunts.....IF all the other tank group taunts where braught up to the same threat amount this would be a step towards balancehere is screenshot comparison<img src="http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr288/p0rn0mike/EQ2_000073.jpg" width="1024" height="775" />

Dasein

12-12-2008, 08:26 PM

<cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>vinere wrote:</cite><blockquote>A quick fix, is to just make most AE hate abilitys, and such, not effect you current target, just the rest of the enounter. First do this, and then you are able to effectivly balance AE aggro, and single target aggro for both classes.</blockquote>So the tank will just target themslef and be able to agro all the mobs? this would be a bad "fix" the idea is not to nerf other classes but balance it out. I did a little research today on all tanks group taunt and what I found was kind of disturbing here are the stats of each tanks master one taunt. Every tank has 1542-1879 hate for there group taunt BUT the SK taunt is 2,450-2,988 why does only the sk group taunt have such high values am i missing something? Both crusador taunts decrease the respected resist both warrior taunts can be used while stuned/stiffled both bralwer taunts interupt the encounter yet the SK has a huge hate amount over ALL the fighters......granted I have the 24% increase to taunt amounts but as u can see it shows that calculation into all the class taunts.....IF all the other tank group taunts where braught up to the same threat amount this would be a step towards balancehere is screenshot comparison<img src="http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr288/p0rn0mike/EQ2_000073.jpg" width="1024" height="775" /></blockquote>Part of the problem is that taunts do not scale like spells and cambat arts, and thus do not benefit from buffs, stat increases and do not crit. Thus, AOE damage spells are far more effective at holding agro than taunts, and out of encounter AOEs doubly so, since taunts are encounter-only. As a apaldin, I rely much more on my AOE attacks than on my one AOE taunt for group agro control. If I need to bring a single mob out of a group encounter in line, Holy Ground or Rescue works fine, although more often than not, if people are ripping one mob out of a group off me, it means the group has enough AOE DPS that the mob will likely die before I can do much to regain control.

thial

12-12-2008, 09:03 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jdark@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>vinere wrote:</cite><blockquote>A quick fix, is to just make most AE hate abilitys, and such, not effect you current target, just the rest of the enounter. First do this, and then you are able to effectivly balance AE aggro, and single target aggro for both classes.</blockquote>So the tank will just target themslef and be able to agro all the mobs? this would be a bad "fix" the idea is not to nerf other classes but balance it out. I did a little research today on all tanks group taunt and what I found was kind of disturbing here are the stats of each tanks master one taunt. Every tank has 1542-1879 hate for there group taunt BUT the SK taunt is 2,450-2,988 why does only the sk group taunt have such high values am i missing something? Both crusador taunts decrease the respected resist both warrior taunts can be used while stuned/stiffled both bralwer taunts interupt the encounter yet the SK has a huge hate amount over ALL the fighters......granted I have the 24% increase to taunt amounts but as u can see it shows that calculation into all the class taunts.....IF all the other tank group taunts where braught up to the same threat amount this would be a step towards balancehere is screenshot comparisontook screenshot you to reduce cluter</blockquote>Part of the problem is that taunts do not scale like spells and cambat arts, and thus do not benefit from buffs, stat increases and do not crit. Thus, AOE damage spells are far more effective at holding agro than taunts, and out of encounter AOEs doubly so, since taunts are encounter-only. As a apaldin, I rely much more on my AOE attacks than on my one AOE taunt for group agro control. If I need to bring a single mob out of a group encounter in line, Holy Ground or Rescue works fine, although more often than not, if people are ripping one mob out of a group off me, it means the group has enough AOE DPS that the mob will likely die before I can do much to regain control.</blockquote>Like I said fixing that imbalance in taunt amounts is a start adding taunt crits, + taunt items and adornments and maybe even making it so the aggression is more like disruption where it actually adds values instead of just some invisible resistibility value. Now remember aerilek or how ever you spell that great developers name said that he wants tanks to be more taunt oriented instead of dps oriented so tanks as a whole need to give as much positive feedback as possible with out going over board or calling for nerfs to other tanks to make sure when this comes out its good, if of course he even listings to us...