Tradeskill Instance Misses The Mark? [Archive]

StaticLex

12-10-2008, 12:27 PM

Does anyone actually take a full group into these things? I was excited about them at first but the more I play this expansion the more it seems like a total flop. People seem to either not do these instances at all or they solo them so they can claim all the loot.So far I have managed to scrape together two groups of three for these instances. The 3 man group went fairly smooth and it seemed to suggest that a 6 man group would be very efficient and worthwhile if it could be pulled off. The idea was dashed of course when I realized there is the stupid 24 hour lockout on these instances. I mean really, what 6 crafters are going to coordinate and go that far out of their way to do one stupid instance a day?Anyway, like I said the idea seemed promising at first but soe really seems to have burned the cake. The pointless lockout timer is almost going to guarantee these instances are never more than soloed or duoed (IMO). I don't know if the amount of loot scales since I've always done the instance with 3 people but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't, thus ensuring 6 people never tackle one of these things together.There are a number of improvements they could make to this feature of the game to make it more utilized. Removing the lockout timer is number one, increasing the amount of loot is next, and I'd suggest some way of choosing rares from any tier as part of the reward for completion.Any other thoughts, suggestions?

StaticLex

12-10-2008, 12:32 PM

Also, who wants to bet that once most crafters have the recipe books out of these things (or the next expansion hits) nobody touches them with a ten foot pole.

Taylinn

12-10-2008, 12:35 PM

I have solo'd it, OMG that took forever, I have duo'd it a lot and that isn't so bad less to shre the loot with. I have also on most occassion now, done it with 3-4 toons from my guild and only once did we do it with 6. The most loot that has ever dropped was 4 pieces.As for the 24 hour lookout I don't find that to bad, gives my clicking finger a break, what I would like is to see the solo ones lessened, 7 days with 5 tser's doing them is a long wait, wish it was slighlty shorter. Shortening it to 3 or 4 days would even be better, or earning ststus to shorten the days could be neat. But it way to early for me to think of anything else atm.Other then that I am enjoying it thus far.If you are on Everfrost, I would be more then happy to do instances with you.

GrunEQ

12-10-2008, 01:44 PM

I and few other people I know have solo'd the missions. Mostly during non-peak times. Sure it takes longer but then the rewards are mine. I think several other people feel the same way. After I get what I want I know I will not return on that toon; what would be the point? Of course, I have alts to run thru it later.

Gallowglass

12-10-2008, 02:26 PM

It's all about risk vs reward for me. If I take others, my reward gets lower but my risk is the same (essentially 0). This is because I cannot on any frequency I like exchange my time for the items that I can get in the chest at the end. The books are no-drop and so are some other things in the chest. So, if I take 1 other person, I have a 50-50 chance of winning between 1 and 5 items in the chest. If I take 5 others, my chances are down to 16.67-83.33. If I do these myself over a week say and finish 5 (some days I don't have time to finish one up, perhaps) I will get between 5 and 25 items for my time. The same in a group of 6 and I am likely to get 2-7 items if the group is quick and well organized (no misses for lack of time).There is also the fact that if I am not grouped I can easily change directions or afk if the dog needs out or the wife needs help or work pages me or even just a guildy needs help with a quest. I still do the solo quests as well, because they are easy and only once a week, so the RvR is high.That aside, I commend Domino for allowing the instance to be accomplished solo and for providing a much wider variety of activities for tradeskillers. I fnid myself tradeskilling more than adventuring lately because the personal satisfaction and rewards are higher.- Dibbler

Galeden

12-10-2008, 02:30 PM

I will be going these for quite a while. Their fun, especially if your not max level yet, they give great XP. Mostly I would be doing them for the rare chances. I'd much rather craft these zones and get a rare or a couple of rares vs trying to harvest for rares all the time. Plus I it will be quite a while before I even have one character get most of the items I want from the merchant let alone multible characters. So ya ill be doing them for quite a while.

Hawkewind

12-10-2008, 04:13 PM

I can get 6 people groups no problem with a little legwork asking. Goes fats 20-30 min max. I like them and am happy with what they did.Unlike the OP, I think they shouldn't change it at all. Sorry you can't find full groups.....maybe it's not the design that is flawed but your ability to find full groups....attack it from that angle

valkry

12-10-2008, 04:38 PM

I'm glad I can solo this (if I don't mind the carpal tunnel issues)! I can't get other crafters in my guild to join me, even my hubby doesn't get crafting so I can drag him, and I'm just young enough that I can't do the adventure instances the rest of my mostly raid lvl guild are doing.Would it be nice to have a partner to do this with, yeah sure, but this is a wonderful way to encourage, but not force group content over solo crafting.

Tinrae

12-10-2008, 06:18 PM

On my server (AB), I see people forming groups for these missions in the Crafting channel every day. I have yet to do a PuG for one though, and have mainly being doing them with friends/guildies so I suppose a lot of people do the same.I think a lot of PuGs run with a 3 man group: one Scholar, one Craftsman, one Outfitter. That way they spend less time LFM.

M0rticia

12-10-2008, 06:38 PM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote>Does anyone actually take a full group into these things? I was excited about them at first but the more I play this expansion the more it seems like a total flop. People seem to either not do these instances at all or they solo them so they can claim all the loot.</blockquote>I typically duo these every morning with a guildie. We get it done in a little over and hour and a half. Since there are very few people on in the early AM hours and my guildie and I work weird hours, we duo the instance and get it done for the day before 'prime time' when we'll be running instances, raiding, etc.At times, another guildie joins us. It just depends on what his days off are for that week.I've never had a full group in a TS instance and, to be honest, I don't want to have a full group in there. 2-3 people in an instance is just fine by me. We get the crafting done quickly and it's less people we have to share loot with. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If my TS guildies aren't on in the morning when I get home from work, I will solo an instance on occassion. I don't really enjoy doing an instance solo so it's pretty rare that I will do this. If a TS guildie isn't on, I will usually skip the instance for the day.

Anordil

12-10-2008, 07:40 PM

I've been having fun with these with my guildmates and friends in other guilds. I ran with a full group last night and it was a lot of fun. ^_^

feldon30

12-10-2008, 09:01 PM

We are consistently doing tradeskill groups of 3-4 players each day. I do wish the rewards were a bit better (and a minimum of 2 items per chest), as far as more frequent rares (realize we're talking 3-6 players working for about 1 hour and getting rewards with a cash value of just a couple of gold unless they get the void shard recipe books or a rare.

bks6721

12-10-2008, 09:24 PM

ask for a group for these on Befallen and you hear nothing but crickets.. I did once get a /tell asking why I don't want to solo it.I solo'd them enough to get my unicorn on 1 crafter. Not going to do any more.

Cele

12-10-2008, 10:31 PM

I have both solo'd and grouped these missions, although largest group (outside of beta) I have had in there was 3 people.They are big fun!

Ghouti

12-11-2008, 03:37 AM

I've soloed them and done them in groups, but for me now that i've hit lvl 80 i wont be soloing them anymore with this character. 2 and a half hour only for some items at the end is a bit steep for me, i'll do them in groups now. But for my next ts'er i'll be doing them solo from lvl 50 almost purely for the xp.

SilkenKidden

12-11-2008, 09:39 AM

<cite>GrunEQ wrote:</cite><blockquote>I and few other people I know have solo'd the missions. Mostly during non-peak times. Sure it takes longer but then the rewards are mine. I think several other people feel the same way. After I get what I want I know I will not return on that toon; what would be the point? Of course, I have alts to run thru it later.</blockquote>I have two level 80 alts. Both have to do the starting quest before they can get the missions. I'll get one of them going on that soon. I want to try using my alts to group with. First I'll go in as my sage with my friend's carpenter and do the scholar stuff and his three genre crafts. Then log out my sage. Bring in my tailor. Now, the carpenter is still in the instance. Should be. Hope I can get my tailor grouped up with the carpenter and enter the same instance. Will this work. Then I can enlist the aid of my armorer and perhaps my friend's provisioner.

ChodeNode1

12-11-2008, 11:38 AM

What are these tradeskill instances you speak of?

Sharakari

12-11-2008, 11:53 AM

I've soloed 2.... that's enough for me. I now group with 2 guildies who have alts that we rotate in. So I have a 1 in 3 chance of getting the good loot. I will probably run these for awhile because I want the good crafting gear for future tradeskill game updates. I hate having to make something as a weaponsmith when I'm a tailor and failing. The tradeskill armor sets can really help with that.

feldon30

12-11-2008, 12:06 PM

I will say that once I've got my 4 void shard recipe books, I probably won't visit these dungeons nearly as often until there are new rewards.

Teircen

12-11-2008, 12:37 PM

I think adding status points equal to non-rush writs would make these worth going back to time and again even once you get all the gear you need.I tend to go in with a group of guildmates. Usually 3 of us. More are working on access.Solo is definitely a pain but I've done solo about 5 times.Three times because no one else had access yet in my guild.Twice because no one else who had access was on.I've yet to get a piece of gear drop related to my crafting class or trade one I've had drop for a piece I want.I'd love to make sure I get the items I want and in a guild group we're far more giving and willing to let someone ask for a specific item and get it. WIth of 3-4 people it takes just under an hour and right now we're still all working on faction coins so we've plenty of runs left.I've managed all 4 tradecraft books, my unicorn, and am working on armor, belt, and cloak.After that, I'll probably still be running it for a while in hopes of getting the rolling pin and spoon.And then some runs to have coins on hand in case extra items are added later that I want.And then as often as necessary for others in the guild to get books, coins, and gear they need.That's all for my main. I'll probably run is more with alts as well, particularly if they're still skilling up as it's reasonable experience.What this needs to make it worth running all the time, now, is status points.We need status points for status items, guild status payments, etc.I'm not saying replace writs and rush writs.I'd say give the crafting dungeons status reward equal to normal crafting writs, that way rush writs are still worth doing.Get a full group of 6 people in there and you'd get through fairly quick (still slower than a writ) and it'd be worth doing. Those who need gear could get it, those who didn't at least got status and a faction coin in case more gear is added later.It's just there's no real repeat value once a crafter gets all the crafting items, they never have a reason to come back.On an adventure dungeon run you can at least get some decent coin for a run. On these crafting dungeons you get 1 chest with a few items and there's no real market that I've seen for the tradeable item drops. They go on broker and largely just sit there. Once I get done with the items I need my time would be far more profitably spent doing adventure dungeons or crafting writs.

Valdaglerion

12-11-2008, 12:44 PM

I think the setup is fine, its the mechanics that are lacking.<ul><li>Loot with the exception of the recipe books and a few pieces of jewelry are the same as the purchased items - how about a fabled mount in here, possibly fabled gear for crafting, etc</li><li>Inability to sell off loot rights or share the drops with guildies, friends, etc if they are not in the zone when the chest drops (unless you have a muter in the group, wasted loot too often)</li><li>If you cant get the token mission quests, you cant enter the zone to help. Sheesh, I get a lockout on one zone and cant get another mission and in the meantime it dictates I cant help someone on a different zone? Dont really care much for this implementation, hope that will change.</li><li>Only being able to do 1 zone per day? This is why more people solo them than group them. If I could do 3 zones per day, I would group them to get them done quicker and doing them quicker.</li></ul>

Zehl_Ice-Fire

12-11-2008, 01:23 PM

<cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the setup is fine, its the mechanics that are lacking.<ul><li>Loot with the exception of the recipe books and a few pieces of jewelry are the same as the purchased items - how about a fabled mount in here, possibly fabled gear for crafting, etc</li></ul>The rolling pin and spoon have the rarity of the uber fabled, why not just tag them fabled as well? Agreed there needs to be a larger loot table, but it has to be less rare (except if somehting new is added that is crafting uber beyond our comprehension right now), we are crafters!! We don't want to farm an instance every day for 6 months to get one stupid piece of loot.<ul><li>Inability to sell off loot rights or share the drops with guildies, friends, etc if they are not in the zone when the chest drops (unless you have a muter in the group, wasted loot too often)</li></ul>Actually you can share loot. As long as the person is a crafter with access and is not locked out for the day and has the quest for that zone in their journal. I tested this myself, they do not need to be in zone when the box drops to share loot, but the timing of that is difficult.<ul><li>Only being able to do 1 zone per day? This is why more people solo them than group them. If I could do 3 zones per day, I would group them to get them done quicker and doing them quicker.</li></ul>And people would be done with everything in 2 weeks instaed of 4 and then what do they do the rest of the year?I feel smart loot needs to be implimented in these zones. I have done the instances 1-3 times per day since about the 3rd day of xpac, with various toons and I only have 2 full sets of the dropped jewelry among my 6 crafters!!</blockquote>

Samant

12-11-2008, 01:31 PM

I have done this quest everyday for the last three weeks and have yet to see anything but Books 2,3,4 a few T8 rares and various pieces of the jewelery that you can buy on the merchant. I looked over all the stuff on the merchant and I can't see anything worth getting. Yes some people say well get the unicorn, but I don't need another mount or something to take up my drastically shrinking inventory space.It takes me about 2 hours to solo a instant, and thats not even paying attention and afking. I have 3 maxed crafters and not getitng any experience for the instants, but I will do it until I can get book #1. After that I can't see why I would ever do the instants again. I almost never see anyone wanting to do the instant, maybe because you can solo it but more likely its my play times that are the main cause.All the solo content is done, can't do the group content, another year of doing tradeskill writs and standing around for hours while I watch TV or a movie in the background. When your playtime is when 90% the population sleeps its a lonely lonely world in Norrath.

StaticLex

12-11-2008, 11:19 PM

Only being able to do 1 zone per day? This is why more people solo them than group them. If I could do 3 zones per day, I would group them to get them done quicker and doing them quicker.That is absolutely my point. I was telling someone in the game a couple days ago that if I could actually get 6 people for one of these things, and the stupid lockout wasn't there, we could plow through several instances in probably an hour to hour and a half and it would be worthwhile for everyone. Now I think I'll wait until I'm utterly burned out on adventure instances and solo these like everyone else.

Nuhus

12-12-2008, 07:52 AM

The only point I agree on is the instances. It would be nice if we could do 3 a day (like adventurers have a lot to choose from). However, this does keep it so everyone is on the same instance. If they got the quest for the wrong zone they can't just delete it and try again. Maybe her plan is to expand on them, I don't know. But I wouldn't say it misses the mark. I think its about time something like this has come for tradeskillers and it's even pretty fun. My 78 tank/alchy got hit by a level 100 heroic accidently, one of my guildies died at the stove (lol). And it's very neat to make epic mobs and see them fight.I think domino did very well. I've voiced my negative opinions on things domino has done, but you won't hear any on this. I don't think it could have been much better. I'm not going to disourage cool ideas like this. Heck, I might even be out of the doom and gloom corner. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />Not only that, but my girlfriend managed to get 2 levels between the quests and only 2 instance runs. How much better of a way than this could you level a crafter before? It's actually more enjoyable.

Terron

12-15-2008, 08:25 AM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think domino did very well. I've voiced my negative opinions on things domino has done, but you won't hear any on this. I don't think it could have been much better. I'm not going to disourage cool ideas like this. Heck, I might even be out of the doom and gloom corner. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oddly I think the group instances are one of the worst things Domino has done. (Well one of 2 bad things - the other being making TSing easier when RoK came out).Being able to successfully make the out of class items more often than not without using any gear shows how badly broken the skill system is. That is not the problem with the instances, it has been that way for a very long time. The problem is that the instances depend on the system being broken like that so make it harder and even more unlikely that it will be fixed.The new instances do provide a slight challenge, but the challenge is in doing things that you aren't skilled in and down value the skills your character has. It badly damages the idea of roleplaying a skille crafter to see others without such skill making the same items.

Cele

12-15-2008, 11:16 AM

I, for one, am still enjoying these instances. I dont always do one every day, but I will keep working until all my toons have a full set of crafting clothing, a full set of jewelry other than their own craft, a belt/earring set, all 4 books, and of course, the unicorn, rolling pin and spoon.All this new crafting stuff, I just gotta have it, LOL. My main carries a redwood box to keep all her different set pieces in!

Zehl_Ice-Fire

12-15-2008, 01:04 PM

<blockquote><cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite>Oddly I think the group instances are one of the worst things Domino has done. (Well one of 2 bad things - the other being making TSing easier when RoK came out).I think you are a minority, though entitled to your opinion. I had 2 crafters max level before the big change, and was so happy to not to do 60 PRISTINE combines to make one freaking stack of 5 hour drinks.Being able to successfully make the out of class items more often than not without using any gear shows how badly broken the skill system is.I'm not sure why that means it's broken. Even with TONS of sucess gear I still struggle on plenty of cross class combines. If it were broken I'd get pristine everytime just as fast as my class. The instances would be pointless if you always or almost always failed cross class, would you want to spend 6 hours hoping to get just 12 pristines for the class that wasn't with you?The new instances do provide a slight challenge, but the challenge is in doing things that you aren't skilled in and down value the skills your character has. It badly damages the idea of roleplaying a skille crafter to see others without such skill making the same items.I'm not sure how that ruins your game, you don't get to take the items home and say hey look what I made and it's not even my class! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And we are all SOMEWHAT skilled in every TS class, it's just easy to do our own becuase we have way higher skill. I personally think being locked to one class is anti roleplaying, in RL I can sew and cook very well!</blockquote>

SilkenKidden

12-15-2008, 02:04 PM

Valdaglerion

12-15-2008, 02:15 PM

<cite>Silken@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm satisfied with the missions, but I'd like to see us gaining some skill in the new areas. Actually, I have become better at doing what does not come naturally, but I'd like to see actual skill increases. At least we can earn charms that increase the skill for us. </blockquote>ZOMG, I agree. This in itself would make the crafting instances very sought after IMO and more so if coupled with a multi-classing ability. IE - change recipe books to require a skill level for their type (Sage - scribing ability of x) to scribe the recipe rather than you must be a 70 level sage to scribe this spell.I think this expands the horizons for accomplished players looking to make their characters more versatile rather than play an army of alts. The alt thing is out of control. Luckily I play on the Bazaar where we can at least sell toons and while I have yet to do it I am beginning to seriously consider the selling of all but 2 toons at this point because its counter intuitive to role play (the player is versatile, the character is not). I would rather skill 1 toon in 9 skill sets than 9 toons. This is more predominant in the adventuring side but it getts god awful redundant to do the same questing over and over to level up toons. With faction recipes you run into the same thing now in Rok and TSO. Have 9 toons, do the same boring 70-90 writs on each one...boooooAt the very least without this major change it would be stellar to get skill ups in these other skills from the crafting instances to assist in making you a better player for those instances and would give you a reason to continue working on the ones you arent so skilled in yet.SKILL UPS FTW!

feldon30

12-15-2008, 04:45 PM

How gamebreaking would it be if there was a very slight chance, like say Far Seas Innovation rare, that we could gain 5, 3, or even 2 points skill up in the craft we are working? It would take months to get enough skill in a foreign tradeskill to do crafting "easily".

Zehl_Ice-Fire

12-15-2008, 05:11 PM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only point I agree on is the instances. It would be nice if we could do 3 a day (like adventurers have a lot to choose from). However, this does keep it so everyone is on the same instance.</blockquote>That would be a great idea. The reasoning I could see why it's how it is is that you need like 50 billion void shards to get all of your top gear. We'll need far less tokens in the end to get all the goodies we want. But I think it would be nice to to do all 3 each day the way adventure zones work.

Terron

12-16-2008, 08:44 AM

<cite>Zehl_Ice-Fire wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite>Oddly I think the group instances are one of the worst things Domino has done. (Well one of 2 bad things - the other being making TSing easier when RoK came out).I think you are a minority, though entitled to your opinion. I had 2 crafters max level before the big change, and was so happy to not to do 60 PRISTINE combines to make one freaking stack of 5 hour drinks.I think you have confused the LU24 changes (which I agreed with for consumables) with the RoK changes. When RoK came out the crafting arts were simplified which was good, but the process of making a single combine became even easier and faster, so much so that it was no longer necessary to pay much attention to complete rush orders.Being able to successfully make the out of class items more often than not without using any gear shows how badly broken the skill system is.I'm not sure why that means it's broken. Even with TONS of sucess gear I still struggle on plenty of cross class combines. If it were broken I'd get pristine everytime just as fast as my class. The instances would be pointless if you always or almost always failed cross class, would you want to spend 6 hours hoping to get just 12 pristines for the class that wasn't with you?Struggle? It should be impossible. How much chance would a level 20 adventurer stand against a level 50 mob? It is broken in that 60 levels of skill only change you from succeeding most of the time to succeeding all the time. Yes the instance would not work if the skill system wasn't so broken that skill is so unimportant that you can succeed most of the time. That is what is wrong with the instances. The skill system can not be fixed without breaking them.The new instances do provide a slight challenge, but the challenge is in doing things that you aren't skilled in and down value the skills your character has. It badly damages the idea of roleplaying a skille crafter to see others without such skill making the same items.I'm not sure how that ruins your game, you don't get to take the items home and say hey look what I made and it's not even my class! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> And we are all SOMEWHAT skilled in every TS class, it's just easy to do our own becuase we have way higher skill. I personally think being locked to one class is anti roleplaying, in RL I can sew and cook very well!Are you a professional cook and a professional dressmaker? Levels 20+ should represent more than that level of skill since they allow you to create magical items. At level 80 I should be one of the best jeweler's in the world. My skill should be fantastically high. It should not be only slightly better than any dabbler.</blockquote></blockquote>

Nuhus

12-16-2008, 09:15 AM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zehl_Ice-Fire wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite>Oddly I think the group instances are one of the worst things Domino has done. (Well one of 2 bad things - the other being making TSing easier when RoK came out).I think you are a minority, though entitled to your opinion. I had 2 crafters max level before the big change, and was so happy to not to do 60 PRISTINE combines to make one freaking stack of 5 hour drinks.I think you have confused the LU24 changes (which I agreed with for consumables) with the RoK changes. When RoK came out the crafting arts were simplified which was good, but the process of making a single combine became even easier and faster, so much so that it was no longer necessary to pay much attention to complete rush orders.Being able to successfully make the out of class items more often than not without using any gear shows how badly broken the skill system is.I'm not sure why that means it's broken. Even with TONS of sucess gear I still struggle on plenty of cross class combines. If it were broken I'd get pristine everytime just as fast as my class. The instances would be pointless if you always or almost always failed cross class, would you want to spend 6 hours hoping to get just 12 pristines for the class that wasn't with you?Struggle? It should be impossible. How much chance would a level 20 adventurer stand against a level 50 mob? It is broken in that 60 levels of skill only change you from succeeding most of the time to succeeding all the time. Yes the instance would not work if the skill system wasn't so broken that skill is so unimportant that you can succeed most of the time. That is what is wrong with the instances. The skill system can not be fixed without breaking them.The new instances do provide a slight challenge, but the challenge is in doing things that you aren't skilled in and down value the skills your character has. It badly damages the idea of roleplaying a skille crafter to see others without such skill making the same items.I'm not sure how that ruins your game, you don't get to take the items home and say hey look what I made and it's not even my class! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> And we are all SOMEWHAT skilled in every TS class, it's just easy to do our own becuase we have way higher skill. I personally think being locked to one class is anti roleplaying, in RL I can sew and cook very well!Are you a professional cook and a professional dressmaker? Levels 20+ should represent more than that level of skill since they allow you to create magical items. At level 80 I should be one of the best jeweler's in the world. My skill should be fantastically high. It should not be only slightly better than any dabbler.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>Umm... Just for the record I didn't write any of that.

Nuhus

12-16-2008, 10:04 AM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think domino did very well. I've voiced my negative opinions on things domino has done, but you won't hear any on this. I don't think it could have been much better. I'm not going to disourage cool ideas like this. Heck, I might even be out of the doom and gloom corner. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oddly I think the group instances are one of the worst things Domino has done. (Well one of 2 bad things - the other being making TSing easier when RoK came out).Being able to successfully make the out of class items more often than not without using any gear shows how badly broken the skill system is. That is not the problem with the instances, it has been that way for a very long time. The problem is that the instances depend on the system being broken like that so make it harder and even more unlikely that it will be fixed.The new instances do provide a slight challenge, but the challenge is in doing things that you aren't skilled in and down value the skills your character has. It badly damages the idea of roleplaying a skille crafter to see others without such skill making the same items.</blockquote>I didn't claim it was challenging, it is to an extent. But that's not really what interests me about it. I like that I can pickup and go with however many tradeskillers I have with me. I like the fact that much like adventure instances we can run them and get loot of sorts. I like the fact that you can get tradeskill XP in an alternate way rather than pristine bonuses, rush orders or making the same item over and over again. It's fun. I can put up with a lot of tedium I've gotten 3 crafters to 80, 2 of those crafters I got to cap the old fahsioned slow XP and subcombine ways.It can be tedious if you decide to solo the instance, it's less tedius if you have a second person. You do really have to pay attention closer to your counters as they can actually kill you and or ruin your combine. But other than that it is just slower if it's another classes.Were you here for the subcombine days? Were you here when you had to rely on other tradeskill classes to advance your own? The hard part was finding other crafters that wouldn't charge you and arm and a leg. *eyes the alchemists and woodworkers*We certainly have differences in opinion and that's ok. I've been through the ups and downs of crafting. Domino's certainly made changes I've disagreed with and and have been a harsh critic. Part of that was making levelling a tradeskiller easier (which I really wasn't happy about). She's added a ton of tradeskill content, quests and items alike. She will likely do other things I don't like and things I do like. But I will recognize the positive things she does as well as disagreeing with the negative things..Now if you want to argue why any tradeskiller can make void shard armor and jewelery I am with you there. But that has it's downfalls as well. My first and main crafter was a sage from the get go. Theres not any void shard things a Sage would make. So what are sages left with in these recipes if they could only be made with a given class?I reacted very strongly when she decided to give weaponsmiths and woodworkers the thrown weapons as a compromise. The other option is to consolodate the tradeskill classes. Which hasn't happened yet. Thankfully. But I still wasn't happy with it as it's treading on those waters. I made a very critisizing post on that.

Valdaglerion

12-16-2008, 04:31 PM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only point I agree on is the instances. It would be nice if we could do 3 a day (like adventurers have a lot to choose from). However, this does keep it so everyone is on the same instance. If they got the quest for the wrong zone they can't just delete it and try again. Maybe her plan is to expand on them, I don't know. But I wouldn't say it misses the mark. I think its about time something like this has come for tradeskillers and it's even pretty fun. My 78 tank/alchy got hit by a level 100 heroic accidently, one of my guildies died at the stove (lol). And it's very neat to make epic mobs and see them fight.</blockquote>I can get 3 quests from the Scholar in Everfrost for the Miraguls Phalactery zones - 1 for Scion of Ice, 1 for Anathema, and 1 for Crucible. Each zone has a lockout on it and the Scholar will only give me 1 quest per day so why cant the same logic be applied to the quest giver in Mara?

Deson

12-16-2008, 05:13 PM

Hey hey Nuhus! Don't glare at woodworkers, makign paper and quills SUCKED and didn't even come close to meeting demand for even one player. It took sages 5 minutes to chew through what I crafted in ~2 hours under the old system.Anyway you two are arguing different points and even on the same point you don't exactly conflict. Terron is saying that a system built on the current flawed skill set that allows any level skill tradeskiller to be as good, just not as fast as another is compounding a mistake. You are saying anything that keeps us away from the godawful grind that trades used to be is a welcome addition. I'm sure you're not opposed to something that allows your specialty to mean more than just a level just as it does on the adventuring side. Why are you thankful nothing has happened in the way of class reductions? It directly adresses your complaint about additions not affecting evryone and compromises like just giving everything to everyone. Reduce the hyperspecialization and you reduce the compromises that keep core aspects of crafting bland.

Nuhus

12-16-2008, 05:36 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey hey Nuhus! Don't glare at woodworkers, makign paper and quills SUCKED and didn't even come close to meeting demand for even one player. It took sages 5 minutes to chew through what I crafted in ~2 hours under the old system.Anyway you two are arguing different points and even on the same point you don't exactly conflict. Terron is saying that a system built on the current flawed skill set that allows any level skill tradeskiller to be as good, just not as fast as another is compounding a mistake. You are saying anything that keeps us away from the godawful grind that trades used to be is a welcome addition. I'm sure you're not opposed to something that allows your specialty to mean more than just a level just as it does on the adventuring side. Why are you thankful nothing has happened in the way of class reductions? It directly adresses your complaint about additions not affecting evryone and compromises like just giving everything to everyone. Reduce the hyperspecialization and you reduce the compromises that keep core aspects of crafting bland.</blockquote>Yeah, I know. When I made the WORTs and subs myself it was quite the process. Gotta give everyone a hard time though. I suppose, but there wasn't any challenged before domino chnaged the arts. Maybe a little bit, but nothing I'd say would be challenging. No, I'm not opposed to something that allows specialty to mean more than just the level. But this I don't think is it.If you literally *needed* 9 crafters the rewards would need to be akin to raiding. Or, the classses would need to be consolidated.The reason I'm opposed to a reduction in tradeskill classes? I've seen it done. Granted not the same develtopement team. But I don't like it. If the game was fairly new I think you could get away with it, but not 3 or 4 years down the road. People get attached to their class, whether it be woodworker, weaponsmith, sage (those stinkin fast levelers) etc. Not only that but I know people with all 9 crafters capped (if scholar was rolled into one I'd be losing as well). That would be a mess for them. I think it would do more overall damage than it would help. Putting more development effort behind tradeskills... hmm...Anyways, the crux of it was reliance on other tradeskills to complete a mission, I think domino was trying to stay away from that.I need to learn to read..... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />Edit

Deson

12-16-2008, 06:23 PM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey hey Nuhus! Don't glare at woodworkers, makign paper and quills SUCKED and didn't even come close to meeting demand for even one player. It took sages 5 minutes to chew through what I crafted in ~2 hours under the old system.Anyway you two are arguing different points and even on the same point you don't exactly conflict. Terron is saying that a system built on the current flawed skill set that allows any level skill tradeskiller to be as good, just not as fast as another is compounding a mistake. You are saying anything that keeps us away from the godawful grind that trades used to be is a welcome addition. I'm sure you're not opposed to something that allows your specialty to mean more than just a level just as it does on the adventuring side. Why are you thankful nothing has happened in the way of class reductions? It directly adresses your complaint about additions not affecting evryone and compromises like just giving everything to everyone. Reduce the hyperspecialization and you reduce the compromises that keep core aspects of crafting bland.</blockquote>Yeah, I know. When I made the WORTs and subs myself it was quite the process. Gotta give everyone a hard time though. I suppose, but there wasn't any challenged before domino chnaged the arts. Maybe a little bit, but nothing I'd say would be challenging. No, I'm not opposed to something that allows specialty to mean more than just the level. But this I don't think is it.If you literally *needed* 9 crafters the rewards would need to be akin to raiding. Or, the classses would need to be consolidated.The reason I'm opposed to a reduction in tradeskill classes? I've seen it done. Granted not the same develtopement team. But I don't like it. If the game was fairly new I think you could get away with it, but not 3 or 4 years down the road. People get attached to their class, whether it be woodworker, weaponsmith, sage (those stinkin fast levelers) etc. Not only that but I know people with all 9 crafters capped (if scholar was rolled into one I'd be losing as well). That would be a mess for them. I think it would do more overall damage than it would help. Putting more development effort behind tradeskills... hmm...Anyways, the crux of it was reliance on other tradeskills to complete a mission, I think domino was trying to stay away from that.I need to learn to read..... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />Edit</blockquote>While she was trying to stay away from it, the point still stands. The relative insignificance of skill in crafting gets boring and takes away some of the immersion. I understand why Domino did it the way she did and just like the clever dodge with writ xp it was smart but a short fix. The only long term fixes with crafting require some form of full rethinking of the classes and if that never comes then crafting will never be much more than what it is in game. While there are concerns with class attachment and such, when things are obviously broken to the point where class doesn't really matter, it's hard to be die hard opposed to fixes--even if painful--if they actually work. The worst thing to do is continue to dodge long term problems because eventually they catch up to you.For the record I have all 9 primary crafters, raised to 70 before writ xp, weaponsmith done twice( the second after deleting the first to change the adventure class and done in a month the January after EoF), all "epiced" , 1 capped transmuter(because I refuse to level another until it's long term adressed, not because it sucks to level), 2 capped tinkers, and a couple others of varying levels on another account that the last year of life has kept me from getting to. I'm more than fine with her taking such drastic measures if it means I never have to wonder about my weaponsmith actually having something worth a crap beyond a token or two. I'm more than fine with it if it means my provi has something more than just food to make in his base recipe book. I'm more than fine if my sage doesn't suck of monotony. And I'm more than fine if it means I never have to see another crap dodge or other lame addition because it's too hard to develop for a class set that is simultaneously overspecialized and detrimentally overlapping. I don't claim to speak for everyone but I'm one of your mentioned capped crafters that really doesn't care as long as it's better when it's over. My only worry about any such changes is the care with which it would be undertaken and frankly we can't do much better than Domino.

Nuhus

12-16-2008, 06:59 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>While she was trying to stay away from it, the point still stands. The relative insignificance of skill in crafting gets boring and takes away some of the immersion. I understand why Domino did it the way she did and just like the clever dodge with writ xp it was smart but a short fix. The only long term fixes with crafting require some form of full rethinking of the classes and if that never comes then crafting will never be much more than what it is in game. While there are concerns with class attachment and such, when things are obviously broken to the point where class doesn't really matter, it's hard to be die hard opposed to fixes--even if painful--if they actually work. The worst thing to do is continue to dodge long term problems because eventually they catch up to you.For the record I have all 9 primary crafters, raised to 70 before writ xp, weaponsmith done twice( the second after deleting the first to change the adventure class and done in a month the January after EoF), all "epiced" , 1 capped transmuter(because I refuse to level another until it's long term adressed, not because it sucks to level), 2 capped tinkers, and a couple others of varying levels on another account that the last year of life has kept me from getting to. I'm more than fine with her taking such drastic measures if it means I never have to wonder about my weaponsmith actually having something worth a crap beyond a token or two. I'm more than fine with it if it means my provi has something more than just food to make in his base recipe book. I'm more than fine if my sage doesn't suck of monotony. And I'm more than fine if it means I never have to see another crap dodge or other lame addition because it's too hard to develop for a class set that is simultaneously overspecialized and detrimentally overlapping. I don't claim to speak for everyone but I'm one of your mentioned capped crafters that really doesn't care as long as it's better when it's over. My only worry about any such changes is the care with which it would be undertaken and frankly we can't do much better than Domino.</blockquote>Mmm. No matter whats done we seem to be coming back to that. I know domino is better at keeping her promises. But I'm still burnt from Beghn saying that the reason subs were removed was to allow more and easier item creation (sages got 3 new things in t8 that was it since subs were removed). While that's probably true to an extent, it took forever to see any results. Sony shouldn't have started with more than they could possibly maintain. And I'll be honest, I did the moors quest line. My first thought was I'm making tailoring, woodworking, provisioning (I forgot the other) on my Alchemist.... My thought than jumped to ah, she'd have to make 9 of these quests and probably didn't have time for that. Ultimately I would like to see more development staff on it, but realisctically I know it will be a cold day somewhere hot before that happens.I don't speak for everyone as well. But at this point with Sony as a whole I've given up on it being anything more than it is now.I suppose that does sound doom and gloom like eh? But if you're not hoping for anything theres a lot less to be disappointed with and more to be impressed with.Crafters have been through many changes, big and small. There comes a point, not my fist time coming to that point with SOE. That another big change might be just the last one I can take. For me, I think that change just might be the one that does it. On crafting anyways.

Deson

12-16-2008, 07:30 PM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>While she was trying to stay away from it, the point still stands. The relative insignificance of skill in crafting gets boring and takes away some of the immersion. I understand why Domino did it the way she did and just like the clever dodge with writ xp it was smart but a short fix. The only long term fixes with crafting require some form of full rethinking of the classes and if that never comes then crafting will never be much more than what it is in game. While there are concerns with class attachment and such, when things are obviously broken to the point where class doesn't really matter, it's hard to be die hard opposed to fixes--even if painful--if they actually work. The worst thing to do is continue to dodge long term problems because eventually they catch up to you.For the record I have all 9 primary crafters, raised to 70 before writ xp, weaponsmith done twice( the second after deleting the first to change the adventure class and done in a month the January after EoF), all "epiced" , 1 capped transmuter(because I refuse to level another until it's long term adressed, not because it sucks to level), 2 capped tinkers, and a couple others of varying levels on another account that the last year of life has kept me from getting to. I'm more than fine with her taking such drastic measures if it means I never have to wonder about my weaponsmith actually having something worth a crap beyond a token or two. I'm more than fine with it if it means my provi has something more than just food to make in his base recipe book. I'm more than fine if my sage doesn't suck of monotony. And I'm more than fine if it means I never have to see another crap dodge or other lame addition because it's too hard to develop for a class set that is simultaneously overspecialized and detrimentally overlapping. I don't claim to speak for everyone but I'm one of your mentioned capped crafters that really doesn't care as long as it's better when it's over. My only worry about any such changes is the care with which it would be undertaken and frankly we can't do much better than Domino.</blockquote>Mmm. No matter whats done we seem to be coming back to that. I know domino is better at keeping her promises. But I'm still burnt from Beghn saying that the reason subs were removed was to allow more and easier item creation (sages got 3 new things in t8 that was it since subs were removed). While that's probably true to an extent, it took forever to see any results. Sony shouldn't have started with more than they could possibly maintain. And I'll be honest, I did the moors quest line. My first thought was I'm making tailoring, woodworking, provisioning (I forgot the other) on my Alchemist.... My thought than jumped to ah, she'd have to make 9 of these quests and probably didn't have time for that. Ultimately I would like to see more development staff on it, but realisctically I know it will be a cold day somewhere hot before that happens.I don't speak for everyone as well. But at this point with Sony as a whole I've given up on it being anything more than it is now.I suppose that does sound doom and gloom like eh? But if you're not hoping for anything theres a lot less to be disappointed with and more to be impressed with.Crafters have been through many changes, big and small. There comes a point, not my fist time coming to that point with SOE. That another big change might be just the last one I can take. For me, I think that change just might be the one that does it. On crafting anyways.</blockquote>Wanna switch sigs?Your problem with one more change is going to be tested at least one more time it looks like. For me I just prefer changes that gut the underlying problem when it's painfully obvious those problems are blocking big benefits in development. I guess we're all different though. For the instances, with six classes in clearly defined professions( not going into detail since it's not relevant yet) Domino could have still put in dungeons that are aren't tedious to solo while still allowing groups and would have been allowed more additions that didn't leave people out. I imagine that the current flawed design blocks out a host of good ideas Domino and the development team has because of fairness and mechanics issues that can't be worked around.

Nuhus

12-16-2008, 08:06 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wanna switch sigs?Your problem with one more change is going to be tested at least one more time it looks like. For me I just prefer changes that gut the underlying problem when it's painfully obvious those problems are blocking big benefits in development. I guess we're all different though. For the instances, with six classes in clearly defined professions( not going into detail since it's not relevant yet) Domino could have still put in dungeons that are aren't tedious to solo while still allowing groups and would have been allowed more additions that didn't leave people out. I imagine that the current flawed design blocks out a host of good ideas Domino and the development team has because of fairness and mechanics issues that can't be worked around.</blockquote>Where is the source? The TS dungeons really aren't that tedious with 2 people. Of course in my mind those problems are theoretically blocking big benefits at this point. She didn't go to the exent of appeasing all the tradeskill classes, how are we to know even if they paired down if it was possible?Heres the thing. She essentially made it so that the classes use geomancy on the moors crafting quests and even at that this is what we got. Theres little specialized to classes. The void shard recipes use geomancy, so any crafting class can make that. I just don't buy that even if we were paired down to 6 we would see much more. She'd still have to make 6 seperate quests in moors. Maybe if we were paired down to 3 classes. I am very pessimistic that it would improve things all that much. Maybe for the pristine bonuses and not having to level up so many crafters.So even with the short cuts and band aids.... Would we be seeing much more? I don't think we would be seeing enough to be worth it.

Deson

12-17-2008, 02:10 AM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wanna switch sigs?Your problem with one more change is going to be tested at least one more time it looks like. For me I just prefer changes that gut the underlying problem when it's painfully obvious those problems are blocking big benefits in development. I guess we're all different though. For the instances, with six classes in clearly defined professions( not going into detail since it's not relevant yet) Domino could have still put in dungeons that are aren't tedious to solo while still allowing groups and would have been allowed more additions that didn't leave people out. I imagine that the current flawed design blocks out a host of good ideas Domino and the development team has because of fairness and mechanics issues that can't be worked around.</blockquote>Where is the source? The TS dungeons really aren't that tedious with 2 people. Of course in my mind those problems are theoretically blocking big benefits at this point. She didn't go to the exent of appeasing all the tradeskill classes, how are we to know even if they paired down if it was possible?Heres the thing. She essentially made it so that the classes use geomancy on the moors crafting quests and even at that this is what we got. Theres little specialized to classes. The void shard recipes use geomancy, so any crafting class can make that. I just don't buy that even if we were paired down to 6 we would see much more. She'd still have to make 6 seperate quests in moors. Maybe if we were paired down to 3 classes. I am very pessimistic that it would improve things all that much. Maybe for the pristine bonuses and not having to level up so many crafters.So even with the short cuts and band aids.... Would we be seeing much more? I don't think we would be seeing enough to be worth it.</blockquote>The number it drops to isn't important, the distribution is. A main source of conflict and handwringing in the current scheme is how the classes are laid out. Sages are hyperspecialized into ensentially making the same product over and over again. Woodworkers and Weaponsmiths clash on weapons and their associated accessories like ammo and some adornments. Woodworkers again clash with armorers with some defensive items because of shields. Carpenters are hyperspecialized for furniture yet still compete with tailors because of boxes. I'm not even touching the domain clusterf...mess that is adornments. While it's easy to add new stuff for the adventuring gear classes, how do you realistically add stuff for provi's that doesn't begin to infringe on potions and totems? Come up with a unique expansion related item for each class that doesn't involve hair splitting and toe stepping?This is just off the top of my head but I have other examples posted including what I posted 2 years ago when Ilucide raised a merge question.My class layouts are all based on my perception of max diversity, minimum overlap, and clarity of role/market. In this case, I dropped the woodworker, sage, tailor and provi out completely. I gave the weaponsmith all weapons and ammo. Gave the armorer all defensive gear. Changed the Carp to fluff/supply/utility class and gave it food,bags,totems and the tailor fluff clothes.Jewelers got all the priest spells and Alchemists got the mage spells to try and balance out spell count and provide an offensive defensive mix. I keep saying six because when I laid it out in the merge thread I left the tailor and as l think about them they are so diverse they are almost an ideal to strive for.The void shard gear alone covers all but two classes and I just have to come up with two ideas for two classes to be all inclusive say...fluff clothes/furniture and bane poisons?Now doing 5 instead of 9 classes, it's easier to craft a unique experience for each actually tailored to the skill set akin to the "epic" mini-zone. With the reduced number of classes reducing the multiplier for problems, the threshold of pain for creating a genuine unique group zone that actually requires a group drops because it's less mindnumbing to come up with unique duties for group members.We can go back to RoK. With this scheme, Weaponsmiths don't have to worry about consumables because they have all of them; the temp adornments can go to transmuters instead,fleshing out their crafting role. No Sages means the same.Covering EoF under the proposed, adornment distribution actually could have made sense instead of trying to be "fair". Even Bloodlines seems less exclusionary since all but one class gets at least 3 somethings.I'm not saying class reduction would be perfect or a silver bullet to tedium. What I am saying is the current 9 carry with them enormous weight in terms of development because of their odd market specialties and the nature of the game in which they exist. Even a full separate dev team dedicated to nothing but crafting would have to navigate a fairness,usefulness and overlap minefield to do much of anything beyond what already exists. A review of crafting roles and market ownership/viability would do wonders for clearing that minefield but, the current mess almost assures some class(es) will have to go. I'd rather take the gamble on the change in hopes things will get better than stick with the status quo and be doomed to our current convoluted and mediorce existence. Why does my sage have to suck and make essentially the same 1...wait, 2 recipes after RoK, just because it looks like it has over 3k by the numbers?Why does my Provi have to hair split recipes by duration just to inflate the recipe count?Domino is a proven boon to crafting and has what appears to be full production support over tradeskills. If it were to happen, you could ask for few better people to do it.

SilkenKidden

12-17-2008, 07:03 AM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>How gamebreaking would it be if there was a very slight chance, like say Far Seas Innovation rare, that we could gain 5, 3, or even 2 points skill up in the craft we are working? It would take months to get enough skill in a foreign tradeskill to do crafting "easily".</blockquote>I'm against this. It's useless to a maxed tradeskiller.

ChodeNode1

12-17-2008, 11:44 AM

I asked earlier in the thread, but never got an answer. How do you access these tradeskill instances? Or is there a thread that explains where I can find this? I haven't explored TSO all that much yet and this is something I'd like to try out.

Niltsiar

12-17-2008, 11:52 AM

<cite>ChodeNode1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I asked earlier in the thread, but never got an answer. How do you access these tradeskill instances? Or is there a thread that explains where I can find this? I haven't explored TSO all that much yet and this is something I'd like to try out.</blockquote>Do "A Cannon to Sail By" and "Ship out" and than go to Mara.For more infos have a look at <a href="http://eq2.eqtraders.com/articles/article_page.php?article=g288" target="_blank">EQ2Traders Corner</a>

Terron

12-17-2008, 01:14 PM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Were you here for the subcombine days?Yes. Tradeskilling was more fun then (though there were lots of problems and too many subcombines).Were you here when you had to rely on other tradeskill classes to advance your own?No. When I started the only thing I needed another class for was imbuing extracts, which I did not find a problem.The hard part was finding other crafters that wouldn't charge you and arm and a leg. *eyes the alchemists and woodworkers*I'm currently looking to get the last three bits for my TS epic. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />We certainly have differences in opinion and that's ok. I've been through the ups and downs of crafting. Domino's certainly made changes I've disagreed with and and have been a harsh critic. Part of that was making levelling a tradeskiller easier (which I really wasn't happy about).Nor was I, though I think a lot of it was not Domino's doing.She's added a ton of tradeskill content, quests and items alike. She will likely do other things I don't like and things I do like. But I will recognize the positive things she does as well as disagreeing with the negative things..She has done a lot of good things, and only a few bad ones. Very few prior to TSO.Now if you want to argue why any tradeskiller can make void shard armor and jewelery I am with you there.I hadn't noticed that until very recently. That is a real kick in the teeth to armourers and jewelers - their specialist items are now worse that what any old crafter can make.But that has it's downfalls as well. My first and main crafter was a sage from the get go. Theres not any void shard things a Sage would make. So what are sages left with in these recipes if they could only be made with a given class?I don't see why all TS classes should get things at the same time. They are different and very rarely compete with others of a different TS class. Though the tomes that jewelers make would more logically be made by sages. I reacted very strongly when she decided to give weaponsmiths and woodworkers the thrown weapons as a compromise. The other option is to consolodate the tradeskill classes. Which hasn't happened yet. Thankfully. But I still wasn't happy with it as it's treading on those waters. I made a very critisizing post on that.I thought that was a reasonable compromise. Domino wasn't the one who made the mistake of giving thrown weapons to woodworkers.</blockquote>

Nuhus

12-17-2008, 03:04 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>The number it drops to isn't important, the distribution is. A main source of conflict and handwringing in the current scheme is how the classes are laid out. Sages are hyperspecialized into ensentially making the same product over and over again. Woodworkers and Weaponsmiths clash on weapons and their associated accessories like ammo and some adornments. Woodworkers again clash with armorers with some defensive items because of shields. Carpenters are hyperspecialized for furniture yet still compete with tailors because of boxes. I'm not even touching the domain clusterf...mess that is adornments. While it's easy to add new stuff for the adventuring gear classes, how do you realistically add stuff for provi's that doesn't begin to infringe on potions and totems? Come up with a unique expansion related item for each class that doesn't involve hair splitting and toe stepping?This is just off the top of my head but I have other examples posted including what I posted 2 years ago when Ilucide raised a merge question.My class layouts are all based on my perception of max diversity, minimum overlap, and clarity of role/market. In this case, I dropped the woodworker, sage, tailor and provi out completely. I gave the weaponsmith all weapons and ammo. Gave the armorer all defensive gear. Changed the Carp to fluff/supply/utility class and gave it food,bags,totems and the tailor fluff clothes.Jewelers got all the priest spells and Alchemists got the mage spells to try and balance out spell count and provide an offensive defensive mix. I keep saying six because when I laid it out in the merge thread I left the tailor and as l think about them they are so diverse they are almost an ideal to strive for.The void shard gear alone covers all but two classes and I just have to come up with two ideas for two classes to be all inclusive say...fluff clothes/furniture and bane poisons?Now doing 5 instead of 9 classes, it's easier to craft a unique experience for each actually tailored to the skill set akin to the "epic" mini-zone. With the reduced number of classes reducing the multiplier for problems, the threshold of pain for creating a genuine unique group zone that actually requires a group drops because it's less mindnumbing to come up with unique duties for group members.We can go back to RoK. With this scheme, Weaponsmiths don't have to worry about consumables because they have all of them; the temp adornments can go to transmuters instead,fleshing out their crafting role. No Sages means the same.Covering EoF under the proposed, adornment distribution actually could have made sense instead of trying to be "fair". Even Bloodlines seems less exclusionary since all but one class gets at least 3 somethings.I'm not saying class reduction would be perfect or a silver bullet to tedium. What I am saying is the current 9 carry with them enormous weight in terms of development because of their odd market specialties and the nature of the game in which they exist. Even a full separate dev team dedicated to nothing but crafting would have to navigate a fairness,usefulness and overlap minefield to do much of anything beyond what already exists. A review of crafting roles and market ownership/viability would do wonders for clearing that minefield but, the current mess almost assures some class(es) will have to go. I'd rather take the gamble on the change in hopes things will get better than stick with the status quo and be doomed to our current convoluted and mediorce existence. Why does my sage have to suck and make essentially the same 1...wait, 2 recipes after RoK, just because it looks like it has over 3k by the numbers?Why does my Provi have to hair split recipes by duration just to inflate the recipe count?Domino is a proven boon to crafting and has what appears to be full production support over tradeskills. If it were to happen, you could ask for few better people to do it.</blockquote>If it went to that extent the whole system might as well be gutted and started fresh. Scholar in your example would have some balance issues as well. Why should alchies and jewelers be able to make 2 classes spells and jewelerly/potions? (haha I know that's kind of funny).The amount of recipes to me, I could care less - it doesn't bother me that my sage has 4000 and my provie has 1000 (I know that's not exact. But it's what you make that counts. I just don't see class consolidation a worth while venture unless it's solely for those coveted pristine bonuses. (which isn't anything worth while to me personally). I've always enjoyed these conversations with you lol. It's been a while. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Deson

12-17-2008, 04:35 PM

It has been awhile. Blame Domino for not being a screwup. Beyond reposting about old issues like totem stacking or picking up on little lines here and there that allow a big picture discussion, there really isn't much to post about anymore.

Nuhus

12-17-2008, 05:18 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>It has been awhile. Blame Domino for not being a screwup. Beyond reposting about old issues like totem stacking or picking up on little lines here and there that allow a big picture discussion, there really isn't much to post about anymore.</blockquote>True enough. She has done well. I do see your points. But I'm just gutted if that solution will pan out any results. It's been a mess for quite sometime, and all the band aids on the broken leg over time. I guess I'm still in that doom and gloom corner as far as hopes go. And more settled into the thoughts it is what it is. Sounds like giving up huh?I do like the tradeskill instances mainly because they are something alternative and you have also have some excitement about the chest that drops at the end. It is also very co-operative. I duo and trio them with friends. We usually end up crafting at the same station to finish those last combines helping eachother out. It adds a unique addition. It's not the silver bullet, I don't think anything is. But it's something new and neat.As far as normal crafting. For me it's just making stuff for my friends and guildies and getting the TS epic done at 80. Theres nothing special about my sage, alchemist or provie. They make the same stuff every other Sage, Provie and Alchemist does out there.One of the more unique aspects I liked about SWG was that everyone wasn't the same. Those that put the effort into it managed to make better product than others. It was very unique (though blah on the crafting mechanics). I would certainly like to see us less cookie cutter.

LivelyHound

12-18-2008, 10:30 PM

<cite>Teircen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think adding status points equal to non-rush writs would make these worth going back to time and again even once you get all the gear you need.I have to disagree. If I am working on rush writs I can get them done in 3 - 4 mins max. At lvl 80 that gives me 12g and 15K status. If I solo a TS instance it takes me fastest 1hr30, usually 1hr45. That's 105 / 3 mins= 45 Rush Writs, or 5p40g and ~675K status. If you make it less than a rush writ adding status will not entice people back. If I do this with 6 hardcore tradeskillers the fastest I reckon the instances can be done is around 15mins, or 5 rush writs (60g and 75K status, each or 3p60, and 450K status over the six people). So what status amount would you add to the instance? less than 15K as you advocate, that wont entice people who have the items already back.What this needs to make it worth running all the time, now, is status points.I'd say give the crafting dungeons status reward equal to normal crafting writs, that way rush writs are still worth doing.If this route was taken it would need a lot of status points associated. Then how do you work it x status per person or x status for the zone. I.e. If I solo it do I get 600K status and if grouped with 5 others 100K. Or is a flat 100K per person. If it was 100K then I would do rush writs and only ever group with 5 others to make it worthwhile. If it was 500K then I would solo it (hypothetical rund figures in use here). But then what about lvl 50 crafters doing it? And lets face 500K for one quest, everybody would be up in arms... so I doubt it would ever happen, more likely 15K would be added as you suggested, which is not enough.Therefore, unfortunatley I dont think adding status points would be enough to make these instances worth doing once you have the items. They would be a nice bonus sure whilst you were doing them but they would not bring you back.It's just there's no real repeat value once a crafter gets all the crafting items, they never have a reason to come back.I agree, certainly you get the chance at a rare or two, but i can get rares from harvesting in jw at a very high rate being maxed on harvesting almost, ~1 per 5 mins harvesting. You get the token, and items that noone will want in a month or so, but that wont keep people coming back as you wrote. You also get minimal coin nowhere near the rush writ scale.On an adventure dungeon run you can at least get some decent coin for a run. On these crafting dungeons you get 1 chest with a few items and there's no real market that I've seen for the tradeable item drops. They go on broker and largely just sit there. That's what I have seen also.</blockquote>In essence I agree, something needs to be added to make crafters return back to these instances. The question is what. Once you have the major items, rolling pin, rare jewelery, and recipes, there is nothing to make you want to return. You can get tokens easy enough from the once a week to get what you really want and the rest is covered by the relatively few (in the course of a year) instances you run to get the few items.So what do you add?The only thing that springs readily to mind is, recipes. It's a crafters bread and butter really. Of course we sort of have that through the 40K FSD faction recipes, but they are worthless on my jeweler (my opinion, different discussion) and certainly not worth running a TS instance to get the coin to buy the recipe to make the item. Much better things to spend the coin on and I only bought the FSD recipe for the disco on it and the two items.I would like to see rare possible recipe drops on the order of maybe 1 recipe / week (7instances) or every 2 weeks. Recipe of the 1 (or 5, but preferably 1) charge variety, that makes something people actually want, that we can sell. This of course begs the question what?On the other hand, I took my 75 tailor into one of these to get the xp which was wonderful and saved a bunch of grinding writs. In that respect these instances are awesome. As are the inital rewards and the entertainment of a new way to tradeskill. Much cudos to Domino and the team for these. They jsut need that one more step to make them replayable!

feldon30

12-19-2008, 01:49 PM

You know what I would pay a MINT for and run dungeons all the time for? Be able to buy higher level reaction arts for the other 8 tradeskill classes. The tedium of these tradeskill dungeons is that we typically have 3-4 ppl, so I am having to make 12 of 2 or 3 items and fail about half the time. Slapping on some jewelry helps some, but I'd really like to buy better reaction arts, with tokens if necessary. I'd double up as having a bit more experience with Woodworking to go with my Jeweling.

StaticLex

01-02-2009, 01:16 AM

I doubt better reaction arts would pull people in. By the time you farmed enough coin to get them, you'd probably be done/sick of with the instances anyway.The more I try to work on these instances the more I realize they are really horribly executed. I have grinded though a few solo now to come away with 1 stupid item (no recipe scroll) that didn't even apply to my tradeskill. Not only that, but it seems the meager interest in running these things has died completely. I have advertised for help with them for the past week and haven't had a single taker. Tradeskillers I've talked to that ARE running them are doing it solo because the drops/rate are so terrible they don't want to risk losing them to someone else in the group.Talk about a great big fail IMO. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" />

Firecracker

01-02-2009, 05:17 AM

First and formost I would have to be asking myself 'what was the intent of the grouped missions?' I really thought it was to get more traderskillers to group, but guess what? It's not on my server. It's not happening that much inless your in a guild. There is no random ones even asking in channel.Personally, I think that is what is wrong with this game anymore is so many have become so 'I won't group with no one outside our guild'. This kind of thinking is ruining it for any new players or players wanting to find a new home for how can they?, if so many think like this? Greed also plays a part too in this for some have already even mentioned 'I do the missions solo only to not have to share'. What happen to helping others get the same loots as you? I can tell you it's because we want to be the first of the few to have it before anyone else in the hopes of making more plats I presume? I miss the ole days when the game was new. When it was new there was all kind of people asking for groups or craftables to be made but now I don't see it all that much because in the fours years time, players have been able to level up thier own one of each tradeskill class so they don't have to depend on other players all that much. I think I know Domino might be trying to get that feeling back when players asked other players for help but these missions are not working in that area if you ask me. I would suggest maybe changing the lockout for these instances to be for the zone only and not all 3 zones might help. I personally think there should be more incentive to get a full with possibly of getting more loot could help too? If it's already this way then nvm but I am sure it's random so the more in group the more chances of more loot could help. I'm thinking at least guarantee of 3+ items per run with 4 or more in group is my idea? I hope there is more added to the loot tables as well for these missions too.

SilkenKidden

01-02-2009, 08:30 AM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote>I doubt better reaction arts would pull people in. By the time you farmed enough coin to get them, you'd probably be done/sick of with the instances anyway.The more I try to work on these instances the more I realize they are really horribly executed. I have grinded though a few solo now to come away with 1 stupid item (no recipe scroll) that didn't even apply to my tradeskill. Not only that, but it seems the meager interest in running these things has died completely. I have advertised for help with them for the past week and haven't had a single taker. Tradeskillers I've talked to that ARE running them are doing it solo because the drops/rate are so terrible they don't want to risk losing them to someone else in the group.Talk about a great big fail IMO. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I did get only one item and the token as official quest rewards, but while I was doing the instance solo - a little over 3 hours for me - I got three Far Seas Innovations - that gave me one silicate, one tynonnium, and a fire emerald. That wasn't bad loot for the time spent.