Guardians was parsing to high eh? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Salarionn

12-08-2008, 05:22 PM

I am wondering how you figured Guardian DPS needed nerfed from our 5-6k ( top of the line raid geared Guardian) dps on trash when you have Crusaders that now are parsing 7-9k on trash. This is a balanced how? Guards need a dirge or really good Xfer to even have a chance at holding agro in instances where every other tank is still busting mobs butts and parsing well. You was supposed to raise or taunts to adjust things and make us able to do our jobs. I am uncertain how you are going to make a taunt be able to hold agro against a DPS class thats putting out 13k DPS in instances and we are doing next to nothing. I dont understand how you release a expansion knowing you are going to change ( NERF) us and not actually make the changes to us that will allow us to do our jobs as you said you where. How long will we have to sit and wait to be able to hang out with our friends out of raids and actually be able to go into an instance and not NEED somebody else to do our jobs like every other tank class can other then us. This NERF is almost as bas as LU13, Thanks SOE for killing my class, while making all others much better. I am not saying other tanks didnt need help, nor am i complaining about what they can do. I am just asking how SOE justified nerfing us to hell yet again, while making everybody else much better. I am glad SKs can be viable tanks and Zerkers are as well. I just dont understand how this was a balance.

Yimway

12-08-2008, 05:27 PM

<cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote> How long will we have to sit and wait to be able to hang out with our friends out of raids and actually be able to go into an instance and not NEED somebody else to do our jobs like every other tank class can other then us. This NERF is almost as bas as LU13, Thanks SOE for killing my class, while making all others much better.</blockquote>Till about January 15th when Fighter ballance part II is released.They stated in beta they knew they were releasing with the job only half done and that it would be priority to get the job finished as quickly as possible, but that it was a complex problem and they wanted to get it right.I agree with you though, they didn't need to do it in 2 parts, they just needed to take the time to get it right the first time.

Salarionn

12-08-2008, 05:47 PM

I guess in my QQing post i was asking, are we going to be able to hold agro on the Assassin/Wizard or Illy thats pushing 13-14k dps in a instance with the changes that are coming? This would be for the brain trust at SOE to answer. I know they cant tell me exactly how it will work, but i want to know if it will work. I want to know if me paying my 15bux a month is going to be worth while still or should i just cancel my account now and not bother waiting.

Yimway

12-08-2008, 05:52 PM

<cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote> I guess in my QQing post i was asking, are we going to be able to hold agro on the Assassin/Wizard or Illy thats pushing 13-14k dps in a instance with the changes that are coming?</blockquote>No idea. However they've indicated we'll be able to parse aggro and be able to determine effective aggro/s of party members. If that is really true, I guess you can say 80 Guad, 13000 HPS, LFG....*shrug*Do what all the other guardians are doing, roll an SK and level it while you wait to be fixed.

RafaelSmith

12-08-2008, 06:10 PM

Going to have to be some serious boosts to raw threat from taunts/threat abilities to compensate for the DPS nerf and the DPS of others.Not going to get into why they even did what they did cause frankly I never saw our guild SK have any issues prior to TSO...if anything from a MT perspective we were much more even before than now....only difference is now we just dont bother with the charity of letting the guardian be "MT".Don't get me wrong...I am 100% happy for him....I just never saw how exactly SKs were suffering.

Yimway

12-08-2008, 06:18 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't get me wrong...I am 100% happy for him....I just never saw how exactly SKs were suffering.</blockquote>I couldn't agree more. However the general perception of the community was the class was broken / underpowered. And community perception is what rules, regardless of how accurate it was.

Salarionn

12-08-2008, 06:22 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote> I guess in my QQing post i was asking, are we going to be able to hold agro on the Assassin/Wizard or Illy thats pushing 13-14k dps in a instance with the changes that are coming?</blockquote>No idea. However they've indicated we'll be able to parse aggro and be able to determine effective aggro/s of party members. If that is really true, I guess you can say 80 Guad, 13000 HPS, LFG....*shrug*Do what all the other guardians are doing, roll an SK and level it while you wait to be fixed.</blockquote> I can say if things dont get change, Guardian with 16k HPS RETIRED !!!

Kordran

12-08-2008, 06:26 PM

<cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote> I am wondering how you figured Guardian DPS needed nerfed from our 5-6k ( top of the line raid geared Guardian) dps on trash when you have Crusaders that now are parsing 7-9k on trash. This is a balanced how? Guards need a dirge or really good Xfer to even have a chance at holding agro in instances where every other tank is still busting mobs butts and parsing well. </blockquote>The first night after TSO was released, our MT was having problem with aggro management in the raid. He respeced, moving points into his Shadows tree (and is now back-filling those points) and guess what? The next time out, he had zero problems with holding aggro in the raid, and has no problems in instances. I can't say specifically what he did, I'm by no stretch an expert on Guardians, but whatever he changed, worked.

Salarionn

12-08-2008, 06:40 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote> I am wondering how you figured Guardian DPS needed nerfed from our 5-6k ( top of the line raid geared Guardian) dps on trash when you have Crusaders that now are parsing 7-9k on trash. This is a balanced how? Guards need a dirge or really good Xfer to even have a chance at holding agro in instances where every other tank is still busting mobs butts and parsing well. </blockquote>The first night after TSO was released, our MT was having problem with aggro management in the raid. He respeced, moving points into his Shadows tree (and is now back-filling those points) and guess what? The next time out, he had zero problems with holding aggro in the raid, and has no problems in instances. I can't say specifically what he did, I'm by no stretch an expert on Guardians, but whatever he changed, worked.</blockquote> I dont care about raids... your buffed to hell with xfers and everything else that makes you godly in a raid. I am talking about going to a instance without a dirge or xfer and not getting your butt handed to you 5 seconds into a pull without needing to use reinforcement or other snap agro skills. I dunno what sort of DPS your mages and scouts do, but my guildies are all sick mofo's!! Hell even our worst healers DPSing on trash can do 3-4k dps. I have been playing the class since the game was 3 weeks old and there is nothing you can do with our AA tree that is going to give you back what they took. I would like to know your Guardians name as well, he have the Trak shield?

Yimway

12-08-2008, 06:47 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>The first night after TSO was released, our MT was having problem with aggro management in the raid. He respeced, moving points into his Shadows tree (and is now back-filling those points) and guess what? The next time out, he had zero problems with holding aggro in the raid, and has no problems in instances. I can't say specifically what he did, I'm by no stretch an expert on Guardians, but whatever he changed, worked.</blockquote>I'm pretty certain I know what he did.However as everyone else respec'd and general dps went higher, it exceeded the usefulness of the TSO abilities for improving hate gain. If you look thru them, you'll find most have a 5 min re-use timer. Not terribly effective considering how many trash pulls you make in 5 minutes.I'm confident if I had the 2500 dps back that I lost with the expansion release, I could continue to hold aggro to the higher raidwide numbers we're seeing. However as the system is now, it is not pragmatic to keep the guard in MT slot, it is actually more effective for me to pull trash and let the OT take it and actually tank. I'm relegated to just the named fights until things change.

RafaelSmith

12-08-2008, 07:59 PM

<cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote> I am wondering how you figured Guardian DPS needed nerfed from our 5-6k ( top of the line raid geared Guardian) dps on trash when you have Crusaders that now are parsing 7-9k on trash. This is a balanced how? Guards need a dirge or really good Xfer to even have a chance at holding agro in instances where every other tank is still busting mobs butts and parsing well. </blockquote>The first night after TSO was released, our MT was having problem with aggro management in the raid. He respeced, moving points into his Shadows tree (and is now back-filling those points) and guess what? The next time out, he had zero problems with holding aggro in the raid, and has no problems in instances. I can't say specifically what he did, I'm by no stretch an expert on Guardians, but whatever he changed, worked.</blockquote> I dont care about raids... your buffed to hell with xfers and everything else that makes you godly in a raid. I am talking about going to a instance without a dirge or xfer and not getting your butt handed to you 5 seconds into a pull without needing to use reinforcement or other snap agro skills. I dunno what sort of DPS your mages and scouts do, but my guildies are all sick mofo's!! Hell even our worst healers DPSing on trash can do 3-4k dps. I have been playing the class since the game was 3 weeks old and there is nothing you can do with our AA tree that is going to give you back what they took. I would like to know your Guardians name as well, he have the Trak shield?</blockquote>Yeah...I am also refering to instance grouping. I know for a fact that when using me as MT my guildies have to hold back and behave more than when using the SK.It used to be that once I had a healer we were gtg...find 4 more and off we go to an instance.Today....after healer...I need a Dirge....then some other aggro xfer....and even then I have to burn snap aggro on stuff I really should not have too.Grouping with a Guard is simply more work that its worth for everyone else...when they could just have grabbed the SK and some DPS and go to town.I cannot see what advantage I offer to an instance group...in fact all I see disadvantages.

Aull

12-08-2008, 08:23 PM

Fighters should be able to do decent dps. However scout and mage dps is so good that in just a few short seconds they have built so much damage (hate) that even a good tank's taunt cannot make up for the loss of hate. My friend is still doing a great job with his paladin though but that is only because of amends.I like a challenge when I play but right now it is almost no contest. With 42% hate mod most scout dps is so good it is impossible for me to actually hold aggro. Even rescue will only snap it back for about 3 seconds then it is back on the brig...wiz...wlck...ect.I don't really care if my dps is 1500-2500 or not but I would like to have some other hate generating abililties that will assist what I lack in dps as a fighter.

Rob626

12-08-2008, 08:58 PM

I used to be of the "just respec and you'll be fine" mindset....and vocally so. I have since changed my mind. I am constantly getting mobs- single target mobs- ripped off of me. I have begun to defer to the zerks, bruisers, monks and sk's, acting as OT or helping to split difficult encounters so all the damage doesn't go straight to the new group MT. I have stopped responding to "Group LF Tank" requests...I just can't hold the hate and it's frustrating the entire group having to slow down just for me. We guardians are awesome OT and have a bunch of great tools to keep the MT alive or snatch the hate and let the MT recover for a few seconds. Splitting tough encounters and soaking some of the damage that would have gone to dropping the MT seems to be a great tactic for some of these instances. We also add a bunch to group survival- our buffs are very strong and our ability to Intercede/Stone Sphere/Group Death Prevent/etc rock! Sustained hate is no longer a reality. At least not for me. I am not sure if it's an issue of we got nerfed or all the dps classes got enhanced or some kind of combination but I am seriously feeling the struggle to maintain the hate. When I have to Moderate the Zerk so I am not constantly fighting with him over single target mobs something's wrong. Majo, 80 guardian for Shadow Guard, Venekor

RafaelSmith

12-08-2008, 11:49 PM

<cite>Rob626 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I used to be of the "just respec and you'll be fine" mindset....and vocally so. I have since changed my mind. I am constantly getting mobs- single target mobs- ripped off of me. I have begun to defer to the zerks, bruisers, monks and sk's, acting as OT or helping to split difficult encounters so all the damage doesn't go straight to the new group MT. I have stopped responding to "Group LF Tank" requests...I just can't hold the hate and it's frustrating the entire group having to slow down just for me. We guardians are awesome OT and have a bunch of great tools to keep the MT alive or snatch the hate and let the MT recover for a few seconds. Splitting tough encounters and soaking some of the damage that would have gone to dropping the MT seems to be a great tactic for some of these instances. We also add a bunch to group survival- our buffs are very strong and our ability to Intercede/Stone Sphere/Group Death Prevent/etc rock! Sustained hate is no longer a reality. At least not for me. I am not sure if it's an issue of we got nerfed or all the dps classes got enhanced or some kind of combination but I am seriously feeling the struggle to maintain the hate. When I have to Moderate the Zerk so I am not constantly fighting with him over single target mobs something's wrong. Majo, 80 guardian for Shadow Guard, Venekor</blockquote>I actually would be ok with the OT role....but from the ISO instances I have done thus far...there has been zero need for a 2nd fighter...especially one that contributes nothing but "maybe" soaking up some additional dmg or "pehaps" saving someone. Raids is a different story...lots of uses for OT especially with our abilities.

Salarionn

12-09-2008, 10:25 AM

LULZ!!! DPS EQUALS AGRO CONTROL !!! MY GUILDS SK DID 9521 ON A SINGLE TARGET MOB IN TOMBS LAST NIGHT !!!! WHY DO THE DEVS NOT FIX US !?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!? How can you people at SOE justify all other tanks out parsing the numbers we did in RoK ( THAT MADE US NEED A NERF) by leaps and bounds and not do something to fix us? Why are we not getting any answers? Why must we sit and wait for the DEVS to do something that should have been done before the expansion came out. Why are there all these posts going and going and going , yet we see ZERO ANSWERS?????? You want to do a fighter change 2 thats fine. I dont care what change you do, but to just say screw them, will leave them [Removed for Content] for months is absolute BS.

dr4gonUK

12-09-2008, 10:40 AM

All they had to do was leave sta line alone. Was our dps really that over-powered?Agree with the OP.I will reserve judgement on class effectiveness after 200aa and part II of class changes. But honestly seems as ' partII ' is going to be based on feedback from ' part I '. Sure wish they had tested these changes a little more before they forced 10000 new sk's on us. Crazy how they base a game system on popularist forum whines./cry give us our dps back! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

Kimber

12-09-2008, 11:48 AM

As a Zerk I feel your pain for the last year anytime I saw group LF Tank and said I will go I got back what class and when I said Zerk they said we really want a Guard if we cannot find one we will get back to you. They Nerfed all the fighter Auto Attacks that is where your DPS went tbh. The reson the other tanks are out DPS'n is from what I know ( only played a guard to about lv 15 or so ) The other tanks have more CA ""attacks"" while Guards have more CA"" Taunts"" ( I think thats right if not let me know and sorry for my long windedness on this ). So with the Nerf on auto attacks gaining and keeping aggro is a problem with fewer CA ""Damage Attacks"". At least that is the jist of what has happend as I understand it. Does it need to be fixed yes I totaly agree as imo Guards are great single target tanks while Zerk SK and Pally are better at AOE tanking. Keep your heads up though I am sure they will get it back to some sembalance of order I mean look at zerks they finaly fixed us.

Kreagan De'Unerro

12-09-2008, 01:27 PM

All I can say is, if I do not have my pocket dirge with me I am reluctant to take any cloth into a zone with me. At least with a scout if they rip I can intercede and they do not get one shotted.Aerilik's balancing issues was done horribly, the guy needs to be fired, thrown out on the street because he has failed us.As far as DPS, as a guard I am still parsing top 1-3 in groups, wont beat out the assasin on most fights, but I can easily outparse most mages. I still hit 3-5k in group instances and 4-6k on raid trash atm.One thing that needs to be fixed is Cry of the Warrior, our PEEL for 8secs. The thing just flat out is not working as intended imo. If it lands(mostly gets resisted) it lasts an entire 1-2 seconds. After using it I will most likely get ripped again, [Removed for Content]?

RafaelSmith

12-09-2008, 02:12 PM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>All I can say is, if I do not have my pocket dirge with me I am reluctant to take any cloth into a zone with me. At least with a scout if they rip I can intercede and they do not get one shotted.Aerilik's balancing issues was done horribly, the guy needs to be fired, thrown out on the street because he has failed us.As far as DPS, as a guard I am still parsing top 1-3 in groups, wont beat out the assasin on most fights, but I can easily outparse most mages. I still hit 3-5k in group instances and 4-6k on raid trash atm.One thing that needs to be fixed is Cry of the Warrior, our PEEL for 8secs. The thing just flat out is not working as intended imo. If it lands(mostly gets resisted) it lasts an entire 1-2 seconds. After using it I will most likely get ripped again, [Removed for Content]?</blockquote>Both TSO fighter end-line and warrior end-line snap aggro abilitities have crazy resists rates. Add to that the fact that several of the TSO instance mobs/encounters appear to be immune to target lock abilities...these 2 end-line abilities are almost useless. I do not have enough AAs to test out the Guardian TSO end-line..but my expectations are not high.I also have the TSO aa that adds additional hate for blocks to Hold the Line...and for the life of me I cannot tell a [Removed for Content] bit of difference.Its sad that two additional hate tools were added and I am still relying mostly on Reinforcement for snap aggro.My understanding is that we were suppose to get improvements to our raw threat abilities and new ones with TSO tomake up for DPS nerf....As it stands all we got was the DPS nerf.Lets not forget all this is not Guardian specific but rather Warrior..so in the end even if the new stuff was working we would still be at a disadvantage due to DPS loss.From what ive read about part 2 of this mess...I foresee a nerf to hate transfer with nothing to make up for it =PPersonally I think its the Guardian RoK AA tree that needs to be revamped and provide a "threat" line.

12-09-2008, 03:14 PM

For reference, in instances(i ran instances all weekend) w/o a dirge i was able to take me(best geared guard on server) and a wiz(best geared wiz on server) and had no problems for hours, of course i had moderate, when we added our warlock, again the best geared, and depending on the instances i switched moderate from the wiz to the warlock, it was painful for me, but i didn't loose aggro, i didn't have to work extra hard. Then i think i had an assn w/ me still no problem.Now i'm not saying you need the best gear to hold aggro in instances, i'm just saying these are all guildies i've played w/ for 2 years and we are all on the same lvl more or less.i was too lazy to mirror spec to agi, and i swapped between shield/board / duel wield/axe of war a lot depending on the zone/ encounter. Always in my dps gear.oh and i just barely got my 160th aa, so i'm WAY behind and lagging everyone i know in terms of aa's.

Kreagan De'Unerro

12-09-2008, 04:47 PM

I tried a couple instances(PoF, and Necrotic Asylum) with a Warlock,Wizzy and Conjy. Templar and Defiler made up my healers. My dirge was not on.It was not fun by any means, relying on Reinforcement, snap agro tools they give us for TSO are not up enough.If I wanted to play a game of Ping Pong I would by a table tennis set up for my house.Without a dirge I am not able to mass pull anymore with a group makeup like that. I could usually go and pull 6-9 mobs 2 levels higher then me with same healers and same mages and not have issues as I am having now.You Auron are part of the 3% who can actually get the avatar gear,etc.. My guild raids 4 nights/week we got really good stuff also, but the avatars are locked down by guilds such as yours. Which is their right, I have no time for oncall raiding.We need to look out for the other 95% of the guards in the community who are not obtaining this gear, cause they are not raiding.

Mathafern

12-09-2008, 04:52 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah...I am also refering to instance grouping. I know for a fact that when using me as MT my guildies have to hold back and behave more than when using the SK.It used to be that once I had a healer we were gtg...find 4 more and off we go to an instance.Today....after healer...I need a Dirge....then some other aggro xfer....and even then I have to burn snap aggro on stuff I really should not have too.Grouping with a Guard is simply more work that its worth for everyone else...when they could just have grabbed the SK and some DPS and go to town.I cannot see what advantage I offer to an instance group...in fact all I see disadvantages.</blockquote>No doubt about it TSO is friendlier to SK, aside from the improvements made to SK.In fairness though you're comparing a relatively new 80 Guard to a fully mastered 80 SK.Prior to TSO a comparison between the two (moderatly equipped 5 master guard vs fully eq'd 29 master SK) would have come out even, with the Guardian MT'ing the raid.Now the Guard still MT's unless it's a multi-mob fight. And the guard can hold single target aggro against even a fairly aggressive SK- without even moderating the SK. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I do hope that the up and coming changes give the Guards to maintain a niche, however, and still allow them to function in TSO instances. The class description for Guard really points toward heavier armor/shield capability and high single target threat- plus being able to moderate/intercede for the entire group.

RafaelSmith

12-09-2008, 05:32 PM

I think we still have our nitch on raids...for few exceptions it simply makes more sense to use a Guardian..especially one that focuses on being as tanky as possible to MT the heavy hitters. And even when we are not MT....on raids we really can make a good OT.Groups are a different story.Groups....especially the new TSO instances IMO are almost like mini-raids in their dificulty and challenge level...with the exception that group makeup is not as exact as with a raid...we don't always have the Dirge or the Swashy or the Chanter to help us hold the aggro like we do on full raids.Add to all that the fact that our TSO Warrior end-line ability gets resisted about 80% in TSO instances its rough for everyone involved doing these with a Guard. WOuld be curious to see a comparison of the amount of unnecessary deaths due to aggro bouncing all over the between the various fighters when MT the instances.

circusgirl

12-09-2008, 06:04 PM

Oh good lord. Have you paused to listen to your complaints? "I can't mass pull anymore without a dirge?" Seriously? I'm considered an excellent tank, and I'm forced to body pull every single encounter because my class has all of one encounter taunt and two blue AEs, with two more gained through AAs. Take a moment and go to the monk or bruiser forums, look around, and you'll see that the advice being offered there tends to run towards "make sure you've got a dirge, coercer, and swashy in the group, to help you hold aggro."You've been brought into line with other tanks. SKs got a huge boost, and now they're even with you. That's where they should be. Equal. Because you're both tanks. Now all they need to do is either boost pallies, monks, and bruisers, or nerf guardians and SKs until all 6 fighters are equal.

Undorett

12-09-2008, 06:15 PM

RTFT Monk

Kreagan De'Unerro

12-09-2008, 07:26 PM

Elanjar

12-09-2008, 08:32 PM

<cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I tried a couple instances(PoF, and Necrotic Asylum) with a Warlock,Wizzy and Conjy. Templar and Defiler made up my healers. My dirge was not on.It was not fun by any means, relying on Reinforcement, snap agro tools they give us for TSO are not up enough.If I wanted to play a game of Ping Pong I would by a table tennis set up for my house.Without a dirge I am not able to mass pull anymore with a group makeup like that. I could usually go and pull 6-9 mobs 2 levels higher then me with same healers and same mages and not have issues as I am having now.You Auron are part of the 3% who can actually get the avatar gear,etc.. My guild raids 4 nights/week we got really good stuff also, but the avatars are locked down by guilds such as yours. Which is their right, I have no time for oncall raiding.We need to look out for the other 95% of the guards in the community who are not obtaining this gear, cause they are not raiding.</blockquote>I think thats why they "nerfed" you... I still think guards are quite powerful tanks. None of the ones in my guild complain and they take all sorts of ridiculous dps classes. Not trying to contradict you all though that just seemed like a bit of an off statement when you are trying to claim you werent too powerful. I personally dont understand why fighters shouldnt be aloud to dps. I mean come on how is a guy with a dagger gonna do more damage than someone weilding an axe the size of the scout. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" />

Salarionn

12-10-2008, 01:02 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh good lord. Have you paused to listen to your complaints? "I can't mass pull anymore without a dirge?" Seriously? I'm considered an excellent tank, and I'm forced to body pull every single encounter because my class has all of one encounter taunt and two blue AEs, with two more gained through AAs. Take a moment and go to the monk or bruiser forums, look around, and you'll see that the advice being offered there tends to run towards "make sure you've got a dirge, coercer, and swashy in the group, to help you hold aggro."You've been brought into line with other tanks. SKs got a huge boost, and now they're even with you. That's where they should be. Equal. Because you're both tanks. Now all they need to do is either boost pallies, monks, and bruisers, or nerf guardians and SKs until all 6 fighters are equal. </blockquote> You sir/maam are nuts , Pallys and SK's are parsing 7-9k normally in my raids, they had spells cast/recast times reduced and some sick TSO AA's to give them even more DPS. They nerfed fighters yes, but gave them AA's to more then make up for it. They have doubled the parses they was putting up in RoK for the most part. You shouldnt talk about stuff if you are clueless about it!!! What else do you think Guards need "nerfed" on? You really think every guardian your hearing is just making crap up? You think we have no problems? You think everything is peachy in Guardian land? I can only suggest that you put the bong down now, clean your system out, you are delusional!!

Salarionn

12-10-2008, 01:07 AM

Kreagan De'Unerro

12-10-2008, 01:15 AM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I tried a couple instances(PoF, and Necrotic Asylum) with a Warlock,Wizzy and Conjy. Templar and Defiler made up my healers. My dirge was not on.It was not fun by any means, relying on Reinforcement, snap agro tools they give us for TSO are not up enough.If I wanted to play a game of Ping Pong I would by a table tennis set up for my house.Without a dirge I am not able to mass pull anymore with a group makeup like that. I could usually go and pull 6-9 mobs 2 levels higher then me with same healers and same mages and not have issues as I am having now.You Auron are part of the 3% who can actually get the avatar gear,etc.. My guild raids 4 nights/week we got really good stuff also, but the avatars are locked down by guilds such as yours. Which is their right, I have no time for oncall raiding.We need to look out for the other 95% of the guards in the community who are not obtaining this gear, cause they are not raiding.</blockquote>I think thats why they "nerfed" you... I still think guards are quite powerful tanks. None of the ones in my guild complain and they take all sorts of ridiculous dps classes. Not trying to contradict you all though that just seemed like a bit of an off statement when you are trying to claim you werent too powerful. I personally dont understand why fighters shouldnt be aloud to dps. I mean come on how is a guy with a dagger gonna do more damage than someone weilding an axe the size of the scout. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>But it is ok for Crusaders and zerkers to be able to mass pull zones right?The zerker and Crusader community whined like little girls cause we were better single target tanks(we still are imo). But yet they excelled at multi encounter, even pre TSO. Most of the folks whining imo did not know how to play their class. I know quite a few guilds who used zerker as a primary tank and SK as an OT, they dropped Trak pre-TSO.My issue is everyone here is saying guards are now on par with other tanks. This is complete BS.We have to rely on other classes to get stuff done. Soloing for a newb guard is almost impossible. best bet is to level a zerker then betray if someone wants to play a guard. We do NOT have the dps, we do not have the lifetaps, heals, wards, HP regens that zerker or the crusaders have.The pally in my guilds DPS increased about 2k since his TSO revamp, but yet he still keeps that insane amends, improved heals, lay on hands timer reduced, better ward.Sks doin 7-10k in heroic instances WOOT, they are on par with us now aren't they? They had their prior abilities which were Threat over Time fixed but got added heals, agression, better defensive ability, improved DPS.Zerker got the ability to use a tower shield with Double Attack which was what seperated us from them in the first place. They got better agro tools(thought they did not need them), better survivability, their regen is now a heal proc which is better.What did guards get cept horrible gear options, snap agro which gets resisted more often then not, less DPS while the rest of the classes got increased DPS.I am still the MT in my guild for raiding, I do not personally have an issue. I can still mass pull zones, but I REQUIRE other classes to DO IT!(unlike other warriors) who do not need anything cept 2 healers. ANyone of them can take 3 warlocks into a zone and pull 20 mobs and not lose a mage, if they played it right. That is par for warriors?Any other warrior can solo his way 10x faster then a guard from level 1-80. That is where us guardians are on par with the other warriors, right?They nerfd our Mythical removing 10% damage reduction proc on it, making it 5%, but yet giving zerker a STATIC 10% DR effect on theirs. Yes this is making warriors on par with each other, right?Give me a freakin break, warriors are not on par with each other. Aerilik is a [Removed for Content], his balancing ideas were horrible. He did what SOE said they will never do again from learning their lesson with the NGE in SWG. They listened to a bunch of whiners who did not know how to play their class to begin with.I leveled a SK to 74 in 2 weeks prior to TSO, he tanked all the RoK zones without an issue, yet the SKs I seen my healers heal for before would drop like a warlock with 10 mobs on them often. I do not play that SK though I was testing a theory, and I was right in my presumptions. people need to learn how to play their class before whining.

Kreagan De'Unerro

12-10-2008, 01:26 AM

<cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jokael@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I tried a couple instances(PoF, and Necrotic Asylum) with a Warlock,Wizzy and Conjy. Templar and Defiler made up my healers. My dirge was not on.It was not fun by any means, relying on Reinforcement, snap agro tools they give us for TSO are not up enough.If I wanted to play a game of Ping Pong I would by a table tennis set up for my house.Without a dirge I am not able to mass pull anymore with a group makeup like that. I could usually go and pull 6-9 mobs 2 levels higher then me with same healers and same mages and not have issues as I am having now.You Auron are part of the 3% who can actually get the avatar gear,etc.. My guild raids 4 nights/week we got really good stuff also, but the avatars are locked down by guilds such as yours. Which is their right, I have no time for oncall raiding.We need to look out for the other 95% of the guards in the community who are not obtaining this gear, cause they are not raiding.</blockquote>I think thats why they "nerfed" you... I still think guards are quite powerful tanks. None of the ones in my guild complain and they take all sorts of ridiculous dps classes. Not trying to contradict you all though that just seemed like a bit of an off statement when you are trying to claim you werent too powerful. I personally dont understand why fighters shouldnt be aloud to dps. I mean come on how is a guy with a dagger gonna do more damage than someone weilding an axe the size of the scout. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /></blockquote> I dont know about you, but if a Guard was every out parsing a scout they (scout) need to reroll. I could hit decent numbers, but i never could get near the scouts or mages i hung out with. I dont know if you realize every point of damage equals one point of hate.... SOOOOO IF WE CANT DPS and they HAVNT GIVEN US TAUNTS to make up for this guess what .... WE CANT DO WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO!!</blockquote>One of the main issues with agro alot of you do not understand is crits. Right now most us guards sit at approximately 65% crit in top gear in most heroic instances. When we crit on any attack it rarely hits for more then 7k.Now take a mage who is running closer to 100% crit, he casts Ice Nova, Fussion,whatever, he can crit for 30k easily, as well as an assasin. Their crit almost guarentees loss of agro, even if you had reinforcement up there will most likely be a split second where the mob turns and 1 shots that person.This type of ago generation needs to be balanced. Why not allow us to crit with a taunt for 7-10k, add 500-1k threat to each of our combat arts? or 25% of CA DMG converted into threat?

Kreagan De'Unerro

12-10-2008, 01:33 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh good lord. Have you paused to listen to your complaints? "I can't mass pull anymore without a dirge?" Seriously? I'm considered an excellent tank, and I'm forced to body pull every single encounter because my class has all of one encounter taunt and two blue AEs, with two more gained through AAs. Take a moment and go to the monk or bruiser forums, look around, and you'll see that the advice being offered there tends to run towards "make sure you've got a dirge, coercer, and swashy in the group, to help you hold aggro."You've been brought into line with other tanks. SKs got a huge boost, and now they're even with you. That's where they should be. Equal. Because you're both tanks. Now all they need to do is either boost pallies, monks, and bruisers, or nerf guardians and SKs until all 6 fighters are equal. </blockquote>One more thought on your advice about bringing up Pally,Monk,Bruiser on par.My guilds alternate tank is a pally, he does great, he plays his class great, never had an issue with tanking things like trak and such. He got much better with TSO also. He is better multi encounter tank then myself on raids, period. that is his niche, kool for him.I have a monk in my guild who is successfully tanking all the zones so far with good healers. He does not complain, he tanks what he is asked to and does a great job doing it. As well as a bruiser friend of mine on another server. He has even tanked Palace of Fahzul as a bruiser.Don't tell me they need to increase monks,pally and bruiser. learn to play your class if you can not tank an instance. Stopp looking for handouts by SOE to make you more competant tank in game.

RafaelSmith

12-10-2008, 02:05 AM

All this thread needs to make it nostalgic for me is some advice from Gauge =PI recently came back to EQ2...primarily because my girlfriend "asked" me too...then found that several coworkers had a guild...so I had had it with MMO on training wheels (a.k.a WoW) so decided to see how EQ2 had progressed since I left back around CU#13.The game has had alot of good improvements...but as I am just now realizing yet again...it still struggles with the whole "archetype" design...mush as it did on day #1.IMO it was a flawed design concept...especially for tanks on day #1 and its still a flawed desing concept today.I play the game to experience as much of it as possible...that includes grouping, instancing and raiding from time to time. Players that like to tank...play to tank...strive to be the best tank they can...are the ones that suffer when the only measure of "balance" is that one class is good at X but sucks at Y. There is only so much that I as a player can do to make sure I am playing correctly....as some point..the basic foundation of the games design either works for us or it doesnt.The idea that somehow you can make AE aggro "balanced" to single target aggro is so flawed...I am amazed that people can say it with a straight face.When I am tanking for a group...I could care less if my DPS is 10...just as long as I have the tools to keep the aggro and take the punishment. As it stands...we can take the punishment...i don't think anyone is argueing that...But, what good does that do us when we can't keep the mob or the extra mobs are one-shotting the other groupmates...and our so called tools to prevent it either outrighte fail...get resisted...or simply are not potent enough to do the job?All that said...as long as encounters are simplistic in that there really is only room for one tank in a group and at most 3-4 per raid....the current state of the fighters in EQ2 will remain unbalanced.Wonder which way the seesaw that we call "SOE trying to make 6 different fighters the same" will swing next time? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />/wave

circusgirl

12-10-2008, 08:15 PM

Monks and guardians actually have a fair bit in common in terms of complaints here. We both only have two blue AoEs (monks have no green AoE at all), and one of monks is a frontal arc, instead of a full AoE. IF we follow a particular AA line, we can get one more frontal and a frontal autoattack ability on a ridiculously long recast. In short--SoE decided that both of us are "single-target tanks." In RoK, this wasn't much of a problem, but with all the enormous encounters in TSO it puts a strain on both of our classes.And yes, I have tanked most TSO instances successfully, most of them with one healer, and while there are a couple of the harder ones I haven't gone to yet, I have full confidence that if I put together the right group they'de be doable. Only instance to kick my butt so far is lower Guk...and if I'de had a dirge or coercer it probably would have been a different story. From the complaints I'm hearing here, which are very similar to the complaints on the monk forums and from my personal experience, it really does sound like you've been "brought into line." SKs are overpowered now, yes. Our MT is an SK, and she's outparsing about half of our mythicalled scouts (tends to pull in about 8-9k). But then, she's really the best of the best, knows her class inside and out, and has the best gear of all of us, so who knows? As for pallies...well, I don't really group with any pallies, so all I can say there is that the one in our raidforce parses slightly higher than me, though he's been raiding for longer and has slightly better gear than I. There are a few changes I would embrace--for example, allowing taunts to critical hit just like other CAs. And I definetely agree that there is a fundamental flaw with dividing tanks into single and multi target. Guardians should have and do deserve excellent taunts, enough taunts to hold aggro. But I think when you have the kind of surviveability and ease-of-healing that comes with a guardian, you shouldn't be outdpsing some of the more difficult tanks....and if you're having trouble keeping aggro, I'de really suggest heading over to the monk forums and seeing the advice there. Learn to tab between the dozen mobs in an encounter, learn to body pull, learn to make sure that when you pull you don't get more than you can handle. Heck, monks have been forced to rely on actual player skill to tank for years now.

Kreagan De'Unerro

12-10-2008, 10:14 PM

The issue is, we as guardians need either a dirge or coercer to hold agro good in a group that sports illy, wizzy,warlock,brig,etc... And coercer is not gonna get it done in most cases, dirge is best. So this is a grou makeup for the most part as a guard:<ul><li>Guardian</li><li>Cleric/Shammy</li><li>Druid</li><li>Dirge</li><li>That leaves 2 slots for other classes.</li></ul>We should be able to go into an isntance with<ul><li>guard</li><li>Cleric/shammy</li><li>Druid</li><li>any 3 mages or any 3 scouts</li></ul>We should not have to live by being proficient by depending on another class.My SK and zerker can hold agro tight in any instance without the need for Dirge or Coercer.The way I look at it is, as a guard we endured tougher time solo leveling, much tougher then a brawler,Zerk, or crusader to be the best raid tank. We did not have the dps growing that these classes had, we still don't. We HAD to have others help us level, trying to solo level was almost as bad as leveling a templar solo.SO if they want to put us on par, then why should our personal DPS suffer, since we were already low on the totem pole for DPS as a fighter? Pre TSO a SK, any brawler could outparse me "IF" they were played correctly. A SK could be near the top of the parse at any givin time.The way I look at it is this:Because SKs and others whined so hard about their class being gimped instead of actually learning how to play their toon, we as guards should do the same this xpack. Caue the next xpack we will be placed right back on top. SOE devs are nothing but a seesaw fixing club, one group whines they beef them up and nerf the other. Instead of beefing them up and leaving the other alone.Aerilik is what the 6th development team to do this in 5 years? He wasn't SOEs first choice, noe second. The issue is the best Devs are being recruited by other companies such as 38Studios,etc...I would not be surprised if Aerilik left SOE with the mess he caused like that Atlanta Falcons coach did last year.

circusgirl

12-10-2008, 11:33 PM

All I'm saying Kreagan is that the state that guardians are in now is by now means unique. If I'm in a group of people that are equally geared as I am, then I'm highly unlikely to get very far without a dirge or coercer. Heck, my usual group setup is along the lines of:*Monk*Cleric/Shaman/Druid*Swashy/assassin*Dirge*Coercer*random DPSerI can get by, with a lot of near heart-attacks without a dirge or coercer, but in order to be in a position where I don't have to tab-target my way through the instance I need a dirge, coercer, and a swashy. You're not alone on this. Thats all I'm saying.

Salarionn

12-11-2008, 06:23 AM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>From the complaints I'm hearing here, which are very similar to the complaints on the monk forums and from my personal experience, it really does sound like you've been "brought into line." SKs are overpowered now, yes. Our MT is an SK, and she's outparsing about half of our mythicalled scouts (tends to pull in about 8-9k). But then, she's really the best of the best, knows her class inside and out, and has the best gear of all of us, so who knows? As for pallies...well, I don't really group with any pallies, so all I can say there is that the one in our raidforce parses slightly higher than me, though he's been raiding for longer and has slightly better gear than I. </blockquote> Thats funny for me!! They say that auto attack damage was lowered for all figters, yet you see SKs and Pally's alike hitting 8-10k auto attacks pretty regular with random 11-12k hits tossed in. You bother to look at the damage spread/delay on thier mythicals? You see ours? Yes, thats exactly right, it's a joke when compared to thiers. You tell me how you lower casting timers and recast times on the spells they cast, along with AA's they have been given to add to DPS, NOT A THING has been " brought in line".

RafaelSmith

12-11-2008, 11:21 AM

I tend to ignore anyone that uses terms or phrases like "brought into line".

Bruener

12-11-2008, 12:24 PM

Wow, are some of you Guards ever over-reacting this x-pac. I hear whine, whine, whine from a lot of you...while the Guards that are good players (I have played with Auron) are telling you there is not an issue really and basically L2P, make the adjustments that are necessary.What really burns me is the fact that you are complaing about SKs left and right. SKs were the red-headed step child of this game since launch...and now are finally getting the love they deserved a long time ago. You talk about SKs parsing 10k in instances.....yeah maybe the top 1-2% of SKs that are geared very nicely with all their masters...and this parsing happening on a few of the encounters in the zone that are large groups. I have played a SK since launch and I will claim to be one of the best playing ones out there. I am fully mastered and have always balanced my gear with tank/dps gear. I can hit parses 10k+ in those instances on those few encounters that are huge groups. I also know that an equally geared/mastered warlock that plays well can probably hit 20k+ on those encounters. The point is, stop using these extremely low cases of SK uberness as examples when it is not the norm at all. I am parsing extremely well as a SK when I go full out dps but guess what....all the T1 dps classes are still topping the parses the way they should. Its just now I can see myself up further on the parse, especially on AE fights, seeing my name not far from the enchanters for the ZW.And now about the solo-ability Guards had leveling up...the major "reasoning" for them to be the best group/raid tank so they think. I leveled a Guard...pre-TSO it was extremely easy, I was amazed tbh. The buckler line was insane, at level 22 I had like 65% DA. It was easy-mode. Stop comparing solo play with end-game play.Anyhow, good-luck all you whiners. Props to those Guards still out there doing their job and making the adjustments they need to to ensure they remain the best.

Soul_Dreamer

12-11-2008, 01:24 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow, are some of you Guards ever over-reacting this x-pac. I hear whine, whine, whine from a lot of you...while the Guards that are good players (I have played with Auron) are telling you there is not an issue really and basically L2P, make the adjustments that are necessary.What really burns me is the fact that you are complaing about SKs left and right. SKs were the red-headed step child of this game since launch...and now are finally getting the love they deserved a long time ago. You talk about SKs parsing 10k in instances.....yeah maybe the top 1-2% of SKs that are geared very nicely with all their masters...and this parsing happening on a few of the encounters in the zone that are large groups. I have played a SK since launch and I will claim to be one of the best playing ones out there. I am fully mastered and have always balanced my gear with tank/dps gear. I can hit parses 10k+ in those instances on those few encounters that are huge groups. I also know that an equally geared/mastered warlock that plays well can probably hit 20k+ on those encounters. The point is, stop using these extremely low cases of SK uberness as examples when it is not the norm at all. I am parsing extremely well as a SK when I go full out dps but guess what....all the T1 dps classes are still topping the parses the way they should. Its just now I can see myself up further on the parse, especially on AE fights, seeing my name not far from the enchanters for the ZW.And now about the solo-ability Guards had leveling up...the major "reasoning" for them to be the best group/raid tank so they think. I leveled a Guard...pre-TSO it was extremely easy, I was amazed tbh. The buckler line was insane, at level 22 I had like 65% DA. It was easy-mode. Stop comparing solo play with end-game play.Anyhow, good-luck all you whiners. Props to those Guards still out there doing their job and making the adjustments they need to to ensure they remain the best.</blockquote>So Auron, who is in an avatar killing guild and one of the best geared Guardians WW says we're fine and we have to L2p so Guardians must be fine. But in the same post, your telling us not to compare ourselves to the best geared and played SK's? Contradiction maybe? How about you stop using these extremly low cases as examples.....Where I'm at..Solo - Sod that, I hardly ever solo unless I'm after AA. Moot point for me.Group - I keep items like the RE2 BP and Belt on me for grouping in TSO to help hold AOE agro, I NEVER group without a Dirge/illu/Coercer/Troub/Assassin/Swashy just because my agro control after TSO isn't anything like it used to be. I can "Cope" with Warlocks and Congies going all out if I have the right classes to work with them. Zones like Guk Outer, I have slight issues on the ring events, just getting all the mobs on me fast enough to stop people dying.I could deal with this IF a Guardians survivability or single target agro was noticably better than a Berzerkers, but the fact of the matter is that it isn't. At 200aa, a Berzerker has almost all the same tools a Guardian does for reducing damage, has an extra death save and has more snap agro abilities. Guardians presently are gaining to little for the very large sacrifices we make in AOE agro.Raid - My agro has suffered a bit, I have to duel weild all trash and easier named and swap items in to make sure the mob stays on me. The guilds SK sometimes pulls agro but is the only one really, pre TSO the mob would never leave me unless it memwiped except for rare cases. The new TSO aa's offer very little in terms of agro, or damage reduction, there isn't a single AA ability I'm grinding AA out to get just because there is nothing really there that is good. The Guardian Mythical has been butchered beyond belief compared to what it used to be and we got NOTHING to make up for the agro loss of the Sta line. Zerkers got 25% damage = Hate..I'm annoyed that all the skills a Guardian has that where unique have been given away to other classes to "Balance" them and yet Guardians only got a nerf. Tower of Stone -> Zerker wall of Force.Block (aa) -> Zerker Gut Roar.Reinforcement -> SK ability that increases hate position on spells cast.Not one of the Guardian useless aa abilities was looked at and alot of the Crusader/Pally/Zerker/SK ones where changed. AOE avoid on other fighters in group, reduction in Riposte damage when we have immunity on Mythical??? Yeah, useless AA's that have NEVER been used by any Guardian with sense.Now a Berzerker has almost the same defensive capability as a Guardian where is the offset for the Guardians lack of AOE agro and DPS? It's certainly not in single target agro because a non Mythd Zerk is equal to a non Mythd Guardian and a Mythd Zerker has more agro than a Mythd Guardian.It's not in survivability... 1 Extra charge on tower of stone and the 20% dodge every 3 mins on the new Guardian AA doesn't make it up because the Zerker has Adrenalin, Wall of Force and Gut Roar along with an extra death save.

Kreagan De'Unerro

12-11-2008, 01:26 PM

Salarionn

12-11-2008, 01:33 PM

Bruener

12-11-2008, 01:47 PM

I know of Lav, and I am sure he is doing great. Show me these parses of SKs ZW'ing 8k+. Make sure you are including everything not just him pulling 4 trash mobs in SoH. Our Guard has np tanking these instances that some of you guys are complaining about and he is not an avatar geared Guard. Yes, he does prefer some hate transfer, but hell who doesn't prefer hate transfer. You are saying that SKs are going in there easily with 2 healers and 3 mages with no hate transfers and I am saying you are full of it. Again you are referring back to the 1-2% of SKs out there with top raid gear. The same SKs that were ripping agro off the MT pre-TSO too.I am talking strictly from the SK stand-point here and the fact that some of you are jealous of what we have received. We have never, and we still do not have the survivability of a Guard. We have much better agro...FINALLY. We still have to balance DPS stats with Tanks stats quite a bit more than any warrior has to...and it takes great skill to excel at a casting tank class. You guys probably have legitimate concerns with Zerks, I never said you didn't. I just get [Removed for Content] when I hear a few of you guys complaining about where SKs are.....when in fact an extremely good SK was on par with a mediocre Guard in RoK. Now the really good SKs are standing out and people are using these top SKs as examples, and think that their class needs to be just as good even though they are not putting in the time for the class or learning their class as well.While you are up parsing these so called SK parses....make sure you include good sorcerers/enchanters/predators in those parses as well, unless you seem to be lacking in those.

RafaelSmith

12-11-2008, 01:56 PM

Bruener

12-11-2008, 02:18 PM

No, I am talking about compairing apples to apples. In the same paragraph you guys are the ones not compairing correctly. If you are going to use top geared SKs as examples of parses put out than you need to use top geared Guards tanking the same zones...they are telling you they have no problem. If you are going to complain about mediocre geared Guards or non-raiding Guards than you need to talk about the numbers that mediocre-geared SKs and non-raiding SKs are putting up. No where close to 10k dps. Hate is slightly better for those SKs, but survivability is lower. A wash. Top end Guards v SKs. DPS of SKs is greater by a 1-2k on singles on average. Hate is better. Survivability is a lot lower. A wash.All I am saying is if you are going to complain than complain about the class that is givin the best of both worlds right now. Zerks are parsing insane and from everything I have heard at 200 AA have just as much survivability as Guards.

RafaelSmith

12-11-2008, 03:01 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I am talking about compairing apples to apples. In the same paragraph you guys are the ones not compairing correctly. If you are going to use top geared SKs as examples of parses put out than you need to use top geared Guards tanking the same zones...they are telling you they have no problem. If you are going to complain about mediocre geared Guards or non-raiding Guards than you need to talk about the numbers that mediocre-geared SKs and non-raiding SKs are putting up. No where close to 10k dps. Hate is slightly better for those SKs, but survivability is lower. A wash. Top end Guards v SKs. DPS of SKs is greater by a 1-2k on singles on average. Hate is better. Survivability is a lot lower. A wash.All I am saying is if you are going to complain than complain about the class that is givin the best of both worlds right now. Zerks are parsing insane and from everything I have heard at 200 AA have just as much survivability as Guards.</blockquote>Ok....but I was never complaining about other classes.In actuallity from what ive seen...SKs are about where I think all fighters should be with regards to not only being able to serve their MT role but also provide benefit to both groups and raids when not in the MT role. They have alot to offer and contribute regardless of what type of group they are in or what primary role they are serving. Just not the case with Guards...then add to that currently we are at best marginally better at that primary role.So nobody needs to be nerfed....but some need to be buffed or given different ways to contribute.The only main role attribute that I think we Guards need some boosts in..is AE aggro....not because I want to be a top AE tank but because the new content is AE heavy and Add heavy. There are many new instances that simply turn down when asked to MT...because I know that group would be 10x better choosing another fighter for that instance. Last thing I want to be is a unecessary burdon to healers...which is what happens when the MT struggles to hold aggro of anytype. Maybe top geared Guards do not have issues in these instances...but I can pretty much bet that mediocre geared SK's have far less issues than I do..with exception perhaps of taking a tad bit more DMG...but that can easily be overcome while [Removed for Content]-poor AE aggro generation cannot.Do I suck...probably...But I try to learn and adapt. Before I blame game mechanics I first make sure I rule out any chance that the issues I am seeing are due to poor play, poor gearing, poor AAs, etc.

12-11-2008, 03:15 PM

I've never said guardians were fine nor have i said l2p, i did say guards have to try harder beyond what is deemed feasible in an evening of playing, by feasible i mean i act like a hungry bulldog. The guardian class is not balanced or in line with the new "vision" that the dev team has deemed to place on it, i have said this several times and have done so both in tso beta and currently in tso. And while i do state that i'm avatar geared, i also state that i group up with my guild exclusively who are also avatar geared, basically saying we are of the same skill set and same equipment level, if anything i have more equipment than anyone since i evoke the mt loot rule, i'm trying to give an equal comparision from my perspective.And even now i'm cautious since i know that it will get even worse from this point(i could say here on out, but i don't like that expression) onwards why? it's like i said as more classes inch towards 200aa, guardian viability lessens to the extent of underpowered. It's very terrible, i don't know how to describe it, in beta when my guild was beta buffed to 200aa, it was just horrible, now isn't so bad, but thats only because ppl are just getting aa, not already max'd at 200, at 200 it will be horrible and when a good amount of the raid force is at 200 aa, other tanks with significant aa abilitys and upgrades from tso will look very promising.again, it just gets worse, as your raid force or grouping friends get more aa, they become incrementally more powerful while we do not, and stagnant, especially compared to other plate tanks and their aa skillset in tso. So fighter rebalance part 2 has to happen fast or it'll be even worse, that is if part 2 rebalance actually fixes plate tanks, if not, well then it'll be a difficult road ahead.

RafaelSmith

12-11-2008, 03:19 PM

<cite>Auron@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've never said guardians were fine nor have i said l2p, i did say guards have to try harder beyond what is deemed feasible in an evening of playing, by feasible i mean i act like a hungry bulldog. The guardian class is not balanced or in line with the new "vision" that the dev team has deemed to place on it, i have said this several times and have done so both in tso beta and currently in tso. And while i do state that i'm avatar geared, i also state that i group up with my guild exclusively who are also avatar geared, basically saying we are of the same skill set and same equipment level, if anything i have more equipment than anyone since i evoke the mt loot rule, i'm trying to give an equal comparision from my perspective.And even now i'm cautious since i know that it will get even worse from this point(i could say here on out, but i don't like that expression) onwards why? it's like i said as more classes inch towards 200aa, guardian viability lessens to the extent of underpowered. It's very terrible, i don't know how to describe it, in beta when my guild was beta buffed to 200aa, it was just horrible, now isn't so bad, but thats only because ppl are just getting aa, not already max'd at 200, at 200 it will be horrible and when a good amount of the raid force is at 200 aa, other tanks with significant aa abilitys and upgrades from tso will look very promising.again, it just gets worse, as your raid force or grouping friends get more aa, they become incrementally more powerful while we do not, and stagnant, especially compared to other plate tanks and their aa skillset in tso. So fighter rebalance part 2 has to happen fast or it'll be even worse, that is if part 2 rebalance actually fixes plate tanks, if not, well then it'll be a difficult road ahead.</blockquote>Given what little we have been told about part 2....I assume things are not going to get better.Their formulas for how to balance and how to measure balance are flawed. Especially for tanks.Any changes made based on that will be flawed as well.

12-11-2008, 03:22 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>(I have played with Auron)</blockquote>I have no idea who you are? *boggle

Bruener

12-11-2008, 04:04 PM

Oh you do, my screen name just doesn't match my in-game name because I made this screen name pre-launch.~Deule

Gisallo

12-11-2008, 04:07 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Both TSO fighter end-line and warrior end-line snap aggro abilitities have crazy resists rates. Add to that the fact that several of the TSO instance mobs/encounters appear to be immune to target lock abilities...these 2 end-line abilities are almost useless. I do not have enough AAs to test out the Guardian TSO end-line..but my expectations are not high.</blockquote>I have noticed on EPic named mobs in raids that the Warrior one has some crazy risists but I have had no realmore problems with Sneering Assault.I too agree that the dps nerf hit the guardian harder than the zerker. We had more CA's to make up the difference. I also hope fighter 2.0 works, but fear some guardians won't be happy because I know more than a couple Guards who NEVER used their taunts. They used dps and rescues to secure aggro and I am pretty certain they will feel like a taunt bot if they have to cycle through taunts to maintain aggro.In the end though I wonder if 2.0 will be enough, since going from offensive/defensive tank to "single target/AoE has thrown the balance off big time and while you guys may get back more single target viability I don't think there is much to do on the AoE front for you guys, unless they then throw off balance on the single target side in the other direction. Why they felt the need for this change in focus is beyond me.As for 10000 new SK's I am sure the long time ones in the SK's world wide channel would agree <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

RafaelSmith

12-11-2008, 04:27 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Both TSO fighter end-line and warrior end-line snap aggro abilitities have crazy resists rates. Add to that the fact that several of the TSO instance mobs/encounters appear to be immune to target lock abilities...these 2 end-line abilities are almost useless. I do not have enough AAs to test out the Guardian TSO end-line..but my expectations are not high.</blockquote>I have noticed on EPic named mobs in raids that the Warrior one has some crazy risists but I have had no realmore problems with Sneering Assault.I too agree that the dps nerf hit the guardian harder than the zerker. We had more CA's to make up the difference. I also hope fighter 2.0 works, but fear some guardians won't be happy because I know more than a couple Guards who NEVER used their taunts. They used dps and rescues to secure aggro and I am pretty certain they will feel like a taunt bot if they have to cycle through taunts to maintain aggro.In the end though I wonder if 2.0 will be enough, since going from offensive/defensive tank to "single target/AoE has thrown the balance off big time and while you guys may get back more single target viability I don't think there is much to do on the AoE front for you guys, unless they then throw off balance on the single target side in the other direction. Why they felt the need for this change in focus is beyond me.As for 10000 new SK's I am sure the long time ones in the SK's world wide channel would agree <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Its the shift to singe target/AoE as the measure of balance that I am having the hardest time understanding how they will ever achieve any sort of balance. Its simply not possible....By definition AOE is a super super set of Single.If you can hold aggro on 5 mobs ...then your probably pretty [Removed for Content] good at holding aggro against one mob.

AziBam

12-11-2008, 04:34 PM

SK here. I DON'T want to get into a big flame war (not that it would last too awfully long on these boards anyway.) I am a bit disappointed to see so much SK hating when they have been at the bottom of the plate tank heap forever. I also haven't seen anything to even show me that they are at the top of the dps tree for fighters even now after the revamp either. Much improved no doubt but that's long overdue.I would like to point out that I've read posts by many guards indicating that they are NOT taking the warrior AA for AE damage. (Think it's in you guys AGI line like ours is.) Yet, there are still lots of complaints about AE aggro. If you read the SK boards, even though SKs have been designated as one of the "AE tanks" and already have quite a few blue AE abilities many of them (including myself) are still choosing to spec in our agility AA trample which allows a chance for auto attacks to hit up to 4 targets. If guards are taking the steps needed to handle multiple targets and still failing miserably then some adjustment could well be inline. If they say "that shouldn't be needed" because I don't want to give up "insert uber AA ability here" and complain about it then frankly there shouldn't be any changes. Sure, I'd like to keep the crusader semi-stoneskin at the end of our STA line but I'm choosing to give it up in exchange for more AE capability. Maybe many/most guards are taking the AE spec but if not..well, we all need to make choices.

RafaelSmith

12-11-2008, 04:55 PM

<cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>SK here. I DON'T want to get into a big flame war (not that it would last too awfully long on these boards anyway.) I am a bit disappointed to see so much SK hating when they have been at the bottom of the plate tank heap forever. I also haven't seen anything to even show me that they are at the top of the dps tree for fighters even now after the revamp either. Much improved no doubt but that's long overdue.I would like to point out that I've read posts by many guards indicating that they are NOT taking the warrior AA for AE damage. (Think it's in you guys AGI line like ours is.) Yet, there are still lots of complaints about AE aggro. If you read the SK boards, even though SKs have been designated as one of the "AE tanks" and already have quite a few blue AE abilities many of them (including myself) are still choosing to spec in our agility AA trample which allows a chance for auto attacks to hit up to 4 targets. If guards are taking the steps needed to handle multiple targets and still failing miserably then some adjustment could well be inline. If they say "that shouldn't be needed" because I don't want to give up "insert uber AA ability here" and complain about it then frankly there shouldn't be any changes. Sure, I'd like to keep the crusader semi-stoneskin at the end of our STA line but I'm choosing to give it up in exchange for more AE capability.Maybe many/most guards are taking the AE spec but if not..well, we all need to make choices.</blockquote>I have the the AGI line myself. It helps some... but its nowhere near enough.The problem is with the basic mechanics of the game. People think AGGRO and DPS are different things when they really are just different words for the same thing. Our DPS took a big hit...not that it was much to begin with but it was just enough that coupled with our various aggro generation abilities we could hold aggro.I really never used the STA line....Even before TSO I had speced and geared myself around using a Tower Shield...I was just fine with my DPS even without the DA from STA...So while I agree that the boosts for the classes like SK were justified...I do not think the overall nerf to inate Guardian DPS was justified. Especially when raw DPS is still a major component of aggro.The game is still entirely based on DPS....with more AAs and better gear the DPS classes scale up much faster than pure threat abilities do. At some point...DPS is required. Hate transfer are simply tools that shift the aggro component of DPS.As a Guard I have no problem grabbing aggro...even on multi-mob encounters....and just about all our new TSO aggro AAs abilities are new ways to grab aggro. I have no issue keep aggro against a single or two targets...but when dealing with 4+ which is pretty much the case in all the TSO instances...I cannot keep...no matter how many times I cycle thru my AA related arts and AAs. We simply do not generate the constant AE dps or threat to maintain.As I have said in other threads....IMO things are fine when it comes to raiding.Its grouping...primarily the new TSO instances that were built for AE tanking where things are messed up. Our advertised advantage does not offer a TSO instance group any advantage. While all the extra things a SK can bring to the table offers. SKs may take slightly more DMG than we do but that can be overcome....our inability to hold aggro against multi-mobs cannot...at least not without a specific very situational group makeup.SKs are fine..in fact are what I think all fighters should be...they bring alot to the table...and can fill a variety of roles if asked or needed.

Rob626

12-11-2008, 04:55 PM

Azibam-Guardian here.I have the AGI line fully specced- I love it. It is the only thing that gives me even a remote chance of holding multimob encounters. (That and the end ability is a great "Oh Noes" kind of life saver but that's beside the point.)Even with the full 40% AoE autoattack AND popping Reinforcement AND popping our two AoE's I still lose hate to zerks and sk's almost immediately. Asking them to back down on their dps is not a good solution- shouldn't they be free to seek their full potential as a class? I understand that each class should be responsible for its' own hate generation and the overeager SHOULD take a dirtnap but I think the difference between when an sk or zerk tanks something and when a guard or brawler tanks something is just too extreme.I saw someone else post this idea and I couldn't agree more:I have no problems with being a single target tank and others specializing in ae targets. What I am having issue with is that the gap between hate generation for single target tanks and multi target tanks is relatively small on single targets and just enormous on ae targets. Another way to say it: sk's and zerks put out almost the same amount of hate to single targets as a guard/brawler but guards/brawlers come no where close to the hate generation sk's and zerks put on multi target mobs.And just to derail the thread a bit: for the love of all that is holy, give Intercede a decent cast range!Majo, 80 Guardian, Venekor, Shadow Guard

RafaelSmith

12-11-2008, 05:05 PM

I wonder if they have ever considered making Moderate a group buff instead of single target.I know that on a high DPS class Moderate really helps me...Making it a group buff would help is in groups...but really not make much difference on raids. Which is what we need.

Salarionn

12-11-2008, 05:59 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know of Lav, and I am sure he is doing great. Show me these parses of SKs ZW'ing 8k+. Make sure you are including everything not just him pulling 4 trash mobs in SoH. Our Guard has np tanking these instances that some of you guys are complaining about and he is not an avatar geared Guard. Yes, he does prefer some hate transfer, but hell who doesn't prefer hate transfer. You are saying that SKs are going in there easily with 2 healers and 3 mages with no hate transfers and I am saying you are full of it. Again you are referring back to the 1-2% of SKs out there with top raid gear. The same SKs that were ripping agro off the MT pre-TSO too.I am talking strictly from the SK stand-point here and the fact that some of you are jealous of what we have received. We have never, and we still do not have the survivability of a Guard. We have much better agro...FINALLY. We still have to balance DPS stats with Tanks stats quite a bit more than any warrior has to...and it takes great skill to excel at a casting tank class. You guys probably have legitimate concerns with Zerks, I never said you didn't. I just get [Removed for Content] when I hear a few of you guys complaining about where SKs are.....when in fact an extremely good SK was on par with a mediocre Guard in RoK. Now the really good SKs are standing out and people are using these top SKs as examples, and think that their class needs to be just as good even though they are not putting in the time for the class or learning their class as well.While you are up parsing these so called SK parses....make sure you include good sorcerers/enchanters/predators in those parses as well, unless you seem to be lacking in those.</blockquote> We dont do SoH anymore and i wouldnt talk about old content anyway. I also didnt say they was doing 10k ZW either, way to put words in my mouth chief. I challenge you to show me a Guard who parsed 10k ZW in any previous expansion. I said they can HIT "9521" on single target mobs in Palace and Tombs and parse 7-8k regularly and spiking to 9k. I would appreciate you at least use the numbers and the ways i have said SK/Pally are parsing and not twist them to suite your arguement. You dont have suvivablity???? I dunno about any other Guardian, but i dont think any of them can die once and get back to full health let alone 3 times. Guards cant parse near what a SK or Pally can as we stand now. I think thats the problem you are having because the extremely good SK and Pallys was doing everything a extremely good Guard was doing prior to TSO. You guys DID need some help and you got. I am not complaining about what you got, im happy that you guys are better now then you was, but dont sit there and tell me we should just be ok with being subpar on the parses and be ok with it. I dont know if you actually get the fact that DPS is the way tanks keep agro still and they nerfed us on that end seriously. I am complaining about being nerfed on the DPS end without being given any real way to make up for it. You can say YOU GOT NEW SNAP AGRO tools. I say WHO CARES ABOUT SNAP AGRO. I shouldnt have to " SNAP" agro crap all the freaking time. Why do i give a crapola what the scouts and mages are parsing? I dont see how this is relevant to the topic.

Salarionn

12-11-2008, 07:06 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wonder if they have ever considered making Moderate a group buff instead of single target.I know that on a high DPS class Moderate really helps me...Making it a group buff would help is in groups...but really not make much difference on raids. Which is what we need.</blockquote> That or make it a amends of sorts for us.

AziBam

12-11-2008, 07:15 PM

<cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote> You dont have suvivablity???? I dunno about any other Guardian, but i dont think any of them can die once and get back to full health let alone 3 times.</blockquote>Just wanted to clear something up as I see this misinformation come up occasionally. Bloodletter triggers once. After it triggers the recast starts which I THINK is 3 minutes (at work now so can't check). I believe the original RoK beta version of it had 3 triggers which may explain the error. If you want to be technical the 6 set bonus from VP adds one more trigger.

Bruener

12-11-2008, 07:47 PM

<cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know of Lav, and I am sure he is doing great. Show me these parses of SKs ZW'ing 8k+. Make sure you are including everything not just him pulling 4 trash mobs in SoH. Our Guard has np tanking these instances that some of you guys are complaining about and he is not an avatar geared Guard. Yes, he does prefer some hate transfer, but hell who doesn't prefer hate transfer. You are saying that SKs are going in there easily with 2 healers and 3 mages with no hate transfers and I am saying you are full of it. Again you are referring back to the 1-2% of SKs out there with top raid gear. The same SKs that were ripping agro off the MT pre-TSO too.I am talking strictly from the SK stand-point here and the fact that some of you are jealous of what we have received. We have never, and we still do not have the survivability of a Guard. We have much better agro...FINALLY. We still have to balance DPS stats with Tanks stats quite a bit more than any warrior has to...and it takes great skill to excel at a casting tank class. You guys probably have legitimate concerns with Zerks, I never said you didn't. I just get [Removed for Content] when I hear a few of you guys complaining about where SKs are.....when in fact an extremely good SK was on par with a mediocre Guard in RoK. Now the really good SKs are standing out and people are using these top SKs as examples, and think that their class needs to be just as good even though they are not putting in the time for the class or learning their class as well.While you are up parsing these so called SK parses....make sure you include good sorcerers/enchanters/predators in those parses as well, unless you seem to be lacking in those.</blockquote> We dont do SoH anymore and i wouldnt talk about old content anyway. I also didnt say they was doing 10k ZW either, way to put words in my mouth chief. I challenge you to show me a Guard who parsed 10k ZW in any previous expansion. I said they can HIT "9521" on single target mobs in Palace and Tombs and parse 7-8k regularly and spiking to 9k. I would appreciate you at least use the numbers and the ways i have said SK/Pally are parsing and not twist them to suite your arguement. You dont have suvivablity???? I dunno about any other Guardian, but i dont think any of them can die once and get back to full health let alone 3 times. Guards cant parse near what a SK or Pally can as we stand now. I think thats the problem you are having because the extremely good SK and Pallys was doing everything a extremely good Guard was doing prior to TSO. You guys DID need some help and you got. I am not complaining about what you got, im happy that you guys are better now then you was, but dont sit there and tell me we should just be ok with being subpar on the parses and be ok with it. I dont know if you actually get the fact that DPS is the way tanks keep agro still and they nerfed us on that end seriously. I am complaining about being nerfed on the DPS end without being given any real way to make up for it. You can say YOU GOT NEW SNAP AGRO tools. I say WHO CARES ABOUT SNAP AGRO. I shouldnt have to " SNAP" agro crap all the freaking time. Why do i give a crapola what the scouts and mages are parsing? I dont see how this is relevant to the topic.</blockquote>All I was doing was clarifying the crap that you were spitting out. You were implying that SKs are doing 7-10k consistently...and that is false information. Yes they can spike up to 10k once in a while, if they are good. Why don't you go back and read your posts because I don't see where you said...."I have a parse on a single piece of trash of a SK hitting 9.5k". Instead, like a politician you are throwing numbers out there which implies that SKs are consistently hitting this. A good SK ZW is probably closer to 6k on trash, unless given a group with all the buffs a SK needs. And now you are bunching Paladins into this same group and believe me they are not parsing that high.Survivability. Once again it looks like you are the one putting words in other peoples' mouths. Where did I say that SKs have zero survivability? What I said is that SKs do not have nearly as much survivability as Guards, which is the way it should be since SKs are parsing a lot better. Yes SKs did need some help. Yes, finally after 4 years we got it. And yes I do believe you guys could use a little help in the agro department; however, it should not be done through dps. You sit there and make it sound like they can never change the mechanics and that dps will always be what controls hate. It is a game, all it takes is some codes and BAM!, threat can own. There is so much SOE can do and you guys throw it out the window. They could add hate crit, +double hate, etc. Stop pretending like dps is going to be the answer when you know for a fact they are working on tank mechanics and it is this very thing that they are addressing.Oh, back to Survivability. Like somebody else pointed out Bloodletter is a lvl 80 ability that is a full heal when a SK dies, draining the hp from their group/raid members to make up for the health. It is one trigger that is about 3 min recast when it does go off and cannot be cast in combat. With a full 6 set bonus (which VP set pieces blow for the most part) it adds an additional trigger. It is an awesome ability. The crappy thing about it is that for some reason SOE still has not changed it so that other save deaths don't proc when bloodletter does too....Hand of Death = worthless. Now, please list all of the Guards "oh crap" abilities, not to mention the fact their avoidance is higher, more hp, temp mit buffs, etc, etc, etc....Yes Guards have more surviviability.

forge32

12-11-2008, 10:31 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh you do, my screen name just doesn't match my in-game name because I made this screen name pre-launch.~Deule</blockquote>This right here explains how clueless you infact are after reading your trash on eq2 flames.However you are correct if auron who has full set of avatar gear says guards are fine / aka perfect then maybe we all should tell soe to put all avatars in instances now.I could care less what a avatar geared guard says compared to 90 % of the population that is blocked from getting avatar gear.Go back to your sk deule, and enjoy the love you got this expansion but get off the high horse when speaking of the guard class you have no idea about.

Gisallo

12-12-2008, 05:52 AM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is with the basic mechanics of the game. People think AGGRO and DPS are different things when they really are just different words for the same thing. Our DPS took a big hit...not that it was much to begin with but it was just enough that coupled with our various aggro generation abilities we could hold aggro.I really never used the STA line....Even before TSO I had speced and geared myself around using a Tower Shield...I was just fine with my DPS even without the DA from STA...So while I agree that the boosts for the classes like SK were justified...I do not think the overall nerf to inate Guardian DPS was justified. Especially when raw DPS is still a major component of aggro.The game is still entirely based on DPS....with more AAs and better gear the DPS classes scale up much faster than pure threat abilities do. At some point...DPS is required. Hate transfer are simply tools that shift the aggro component of DPS.</blockquote>Here is what I was talking about. We all have (even me to an extent) dps on the brain. Aeralik has made it clear that to his mind aggro and dps are not the same thing, meaning that dps is simply a component of aggro. The whole transition (which is a mess) is intended to change that, can't wait to see how he does it (lord help us all). I could even see him nerfing dps gear and just putting hate gen procs on it saying "you guys still aren't thinking in hps."As for asking people to hold back I think that will indeed be part of it. This is what I see happening, due to his numerous comments about making aggro maintainence the personal responsibility of everyone (or something like that).EVERY passive aggro management ability gets a nerf. This includes Amends, dps hate transfers, maybe even bard and Coercer stuff. Taunts get a boost as do dps "hate dumps". When you end up over whelming these things its either "pray a rescue is up" (wonder why Warriors got 2 extra snap aggro abilities and Zerkers a 3rd so that we have the same number?) or ask your dps to watch...well their dps.Maybe this is a worse case scenario that will never happen, but after living through I don't know how many of Ranger "fixes" its what I see coming.

Salarionn

12-12-2008, 10:34 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know of Lav, and I am sure he is doing great. Show me these parses of SKs ZW'ing 8k+. Make sure you are including everything not just him pulling 4 trash mobs in SoH. Our Guard has np tanking these instances that some of you guys are complaining about and he is not an avatar geared Guard. Yes, he does prefer some hate transfer, but hell who doesn't prefer hate transfer. You are saying that SKs are going in there easily with 2 healers and 3 mages with no hate transfers and I am saying you are full of it. Again you are referring back to the 1-2% of SKs out there with top raid gear. The same SKs that were ripping agro off the MT pre-TSO too.I am talking strictly from the SK stand-point here and the fact that some of you are jealous of what we have received. We have never, and we still do not have the survivability of a Guard. We have much better agro...FINALLY. We still have to balance DPS stats with Tanks stats quite a bit more than any warrior has to...and it takes great skill to excel at a casting tank class. You guys probably have legitimate concerns with Zerks, I never said you didn't. I just get [Removed for Content] when I hear a few of you guys complaining about where SKs are.....when in fact an extremely good SK was on par with a mediocre Guard in RoK. Now the really good SKs are standing out and people are using these top SKs as examples, and think that their class needs to be just as good even though they are not putting in the time for the class or learning their class as well.While you are up parsing these so called SK parses....make sure you include good sorcerers/enchanters/predators in those parses as well, unless you seem to be lacking in those.</blockquote> We dont do SoH anymore and i wouldnt talk about old content anyway. I also didnt say they was doing 10k ZW either, way to put words in my mouth chief. I challenge you to show me a Guard who parsed 10k ZW in any previous expansion. I said they can HIT "9521" on single target mobs in Palace and Tombs and parse 7-8k regularly and spiking to 9k. I would appreciate you at least use the numbers and the ways i have said SK/Pally are parsing and not twist them to suite your arguement. You dont have suvivablity???? I dunno about any other Guardian, but i dont think any of them can die once and get back to full health let alone 3 times. Guards cant parse near what a SK or Pally can as we stand now. I think thats the problem you are having because the extremely good SK and Pallys was doing everything a extremely good Guard was doing prior to TSO. You guys DID need some help and you got. I am not complaining about what you got, im happy that you guys are better now then you was, but dont sit there and tell me we should just be ok with being subpar on the parses and be ok with it. I dont know if you actually get the fact that DPS is the way tanks keep agro still and they nerfed us on that end seriously. I am complaining about being nerfed on the DPS end without being given any real way to make up for it. You can say YOU GOT NEW SNAP AGRO tools. I say WHO CARES ABOUT SNAP AGRO. I shouldnt have to " SNAP" agro crap all the freaking time. Why do i give a crapola what the scouts and mages are parsing? I dont see how this is relevant to the topic.</blockquote>All I was doing was clarifying the crap that you were spitting out. You were implying that SKs are doing 7-10k consistently...and that is false information. Yes they can spike up to 10k once in a while, if they are good. Why don't you go back and read your posts because I don't see where you said...."I have a parse on a single piece of trash of a SK hitting 9.5k". Instead, like a politician you are throwing numbers out there which implies that SKs are consistently hitting this. A good SK ZW is probably closer to 6k on trash, unless given a group with all the buffs a SK needs. And now you are bunching Paladins into this same group and believe me they are not parsing that high.Survivability. Once again it looks like you are the one putting words in other peoples' mouths. Where did I say that SKs have zero survivability? What I said is that SKs do not have nearly as much survivability as Guards, which is the way it should be since SKs are parsing a lot better. Yes SKs did need some help. Yes, finally after 4 years we got it. And yes I do believe you guys could use a little help in the agro department; however, it should not be done through dps. You sit there and make it sound like they can never change the mechanics and that dps will always be what controls hate. It is a game, all it takes is some codes and BAM!, threat can own. There is so much SOE can do and you guys throw it out the window. They could add hate crit, +double hate, etc. Stop pretending like dps is going to be the answer when you know for a fact they are working on tank mechanics and it is this very thing that they are addressing.Oh, back to Survivability. Like somebody else pointed out Bloodletter is a lvl 80 ability that is a full heal when a SK dies, draining the hp from their group/raid members to make up for the health. It is one trigger that is about 3 min recast when it does go off and cannot be cast in combat. With a full 6 set bonus (which VP set pieces blow for the most part) it adds an additional trigger. It is an awesome ability. The crappy thing about it is that for some reason SOE still has not changed it so that other save deaths don't proc when bloodletter does too....Hand of Death = worthless. Now, please list all of the Guards "oh crap" abilities, not to mention the fact their avoidance is higher, more hp, temp mit buffs, etc, etc, etc....Yes Guards have more surviviability.</blockquote> I am implying SKs are doing 7-9k regularly with random bursts to 9-10k range sir. You are FOS. I clearly said on page 1 of this thread, that our SK hit 9521 on a single target mob in a raid tonight. Which says one mob, one parse to me. I am very sorry if reading comprehension isnt your forte, but your the twister of words sir not i.This tread was always about crusaders not SKs, but i can understand that once again you read what you wish and miss the rest. I dont know what you mean they are not because they certainly are and its not just the Pally in my guild that is doing it. I guess if your guild Pally or Pally friends cant generate them numbers they have work to do because i have 3 friends on LDL who can hit those numbers on single target mobs regularly as well (6-8k). You are right, my bad you only get 2 complete heals from bloodletter. I was mistaken on that shoot me now. I guess you dont realize that DPS is in fact the only way to generate hate in this game still. You have snap agro tools, but as far as Guardians crap goes they get resisted more then they dont so whats the point. So how can you say we dont need DPS and you do? I think its laughable if you think other tanks should be able to double our parses and call that a fair trade for abilities you crusaders have pieces of yourself now.

Kimber

12-12-2008, 11:35 AM

OK let me see if I have this right. A Zerk who is an AOE tank will do just as well on a single target as a Guard. ( believe that was said up there some where ) Guess what we wont and I will tell you why if you pay attention. A Zerk who hits mult targets with many of their attacks has a set amount of damage for that attack just like everyone. That attack has the chance to inflict say 1K damage ( going with 1K to keep it simple ) This damage will be applied to say 4 targets. Woot great that is 4K of DPS right there in 1 attack. If there is only 1 target we only get 1K DPS.A Guard who hits 1 target will their attacks also has a set amount for that attack. It has the chance to hit for 1.5K a lil more than the zerk but the draw back is it only hits 1 taget. 1.5K DPS 1 attack.Well guess what that means a Guard is more effective against what 1 target. TSO is what AOE heave just like RoK was what single target heavy. Now I am not saying that SoE did not bork up your class ( just like they did Zerks for so long ) but lets be real how can a single target tank complain about not being able to do a job that they were not designed to do. Yes I feel the same way about the older Zerk posts complaining about not being viable due to Guards being better at single target stuff. I say this in closeing though have faith in SoE ( I know it can be difficult ) they will ""fix it"" and there is the second part of the update coming so give it a lil more time its possable ( granted not likely ) that they are looking and listening to what is going on with your class atm and will make the needed adjustments before the patch realease.

Soul_Dreamer

12-12-2008, 11:48 AM

Ahhh, I see what your saying in your example...Guardians can do a little more in single target situations than a Berzerker but Berzerkers can own the hell out of a Guardian in AOE situations so they are balanced. Also, because Zerkers where so unbalanced for so long it's ok that now they can almost equal or better a Guardian in every single way.Know the main flaw in your argument?? Berzerkers out DPS Guardians in single target situations, DPS = Hate, so Berzerkers while have more AOE agro, they also have more single target agro. With AA's Berzerkers gain Hate on Adrenalin and an AOE rescue... wow, both work on single targets so Berzerkers have the same number of agro tools as a Guardian. Throw in the Zerker Mythical with 25% inc damage = hate and a mini rescue on Gibe and they are way in front.Guardians aren't complaining they have low AOE Agro, they are complaining about why they should have to give up AOE agro when Berzerkers are so close in single target agro and defensive abilities.Listing 2 fictional abilities doesn't prove anything except you're an idiot.

Bruener

12-12-2008, 12:16 PM

<cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know of Lav, and I am sure he is doing great. Show me these parses of SKs ZW'ing 8k+. Make sure you are including everything not just him pulling 4 trash mobs in SoH. Our Guard has np tanking these instances that some of you guys are complaining about and he is not an avatar geared Guard. Yes, he does prefer some hate transfer, but hell who doesn't prefer hate transfer. You are saying that SKs are going in there easily with 2 healers and 3 mages with no hate transfers and I am saying you are full of it. Again you are referring back to the 1-2% of SKs out there with top raid gear. The same SKs that were ripping agro off the MT pre-TSO too.I am talking strictly from the SK stand-point here and the fact that some of you are jealous of what we have received. We have never, and we still do not have the survivability of a Guard. We have much better agro...FINALLY. We still have to balance DPS stats with Tanks stats quite a bit more than any warrior has to...and it takes great skill to excel at a casting tank class. You guys probably have legitimate concerns with Zerks, I never said you didn't. I just get [Removed for Content] when I hear a few of you guys complaining about where SKs are.....when in fact an extremely good SK was on par with a mediocre Guard in RoK. Now the really good SKs are standing out and people are using these top SKs as examples, and think that their class needs to be just as good even though they are not putting in the time for the class or learning their class as well.While you are up parsing these so called SK parses....make sure you include good sorcerers/enchanters/predators in those parses as well, unless you seem to be lacking in those.</blockquote> We dont do SoH anymore and i wouldnt talk about old content anyway. I also didnt say they was doing 10k ZW either, way to put words in my mouth chief. I challenge you to show me a Guard who parsed 10k ZW in any previous expansion. I said they can HIT "9521" on single target mobs in Palace and Tombs and parse 7-8k regularly and spiking to 9k. I would appreciate you at least use the numbers and the ways i have said SK/Pally are parsing and not twist them to suite your arguement. You dont have suvivablity???? I dunno about any other Guardian, but i dont think any of them can die once and get back to full health let alone 3 times. Guards cant parse near what a SK or Pally can as we stand now. I think thats the problem you are having because the extremely good SK and Pallys was doing everything a extremely good Guard was doing prior to TSO. You guys DID need some help and you got. I am not complaining about what you got, im happy that you guys are better now then you was, but dont sit there and tell me we should just be ok with being subpar on the parses and be ok with it. I dont know if you actually get the fact that DPS is the way tanks keep agro still and they nerfed us on that end seriously. I am complaining about being nerfed on the DPS end without being given any real way to make up for it. You can say YOU GOT NEW SNAP AGRO tools. I say WHO CARES ABOUT SNAP AGRO. I shouldnt have to " SNAP" agro crap all the freaking time. Why do i give a crapola what the scouts and mages are parsing? I dont see how this is relevant to the topic.</blockquote>Oh, and the reason for asking what your mages and scouts are parsing is because this is all relative in concerns of DPS. If the SK hit a 9.5k parse what did the assassins hit on that parse. I have parsed that high and guess what the Assassins were sitting at 13k+. I have done parses where I will hit 9-10k and the warlock will hit 14-15k. DPS is all relative in what other classes are parsing.Now back to the issue. Why are you completely ignoring the fact that tank revamp 2.0 is coming up? You keep asking for more DPS, why do you think you need more dps? Do you really think that mechanics can't be changed so that threat > dps? I saw an avatar bp the other day that adds +10 to base taunt. Sounds like a set-up for adding in other taunt modifiers since we know that +base on anything increases everything >>>> +crit, +damage, etc.Guards have always claimed that they made a Guard to be the MT. To take the hardest hits. If SOE can do this, and you can hold agro doing it without DPS...why do you think you need DPS? There is pretty much 1 guaranteed spot on a raid for a Guard in raids, that is more than quite a few other classes can say. The other tanks need this extra dps and utility to bring to raids because 90% of the time they will be sitting in a raid doing nothing otherwise.Again, I hope you get some agro adjustments....I just think you are going about it the wrong way asking for DPS.

Undorett

12-12-2008, 12:26 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know of Lav, and I am sure he is doing great. Show me these parses of SKs ZW'ing 8k+. Make sure you are including everything not just him pulling 4 trash mobs in SoH. Our Guard has np tanking these instances that some of you guys are complaining about and he is not an avatar geared Guard. Yes, he does prefer some hate transfer, but hell who doesn't prefer hate transfer. You are saying that SKs are going in there easily with 2 healers and 3 mages with no hate transfers and I am saying you are full of it. Again you are referring back to the 1-2% of SKs out there with top raid gear. The same SKs that were ripping agro off the MT pre-TSO too.I am talking strictly from the SK stand-point here and the fact that some of you are jealous of what we have received. We have never, and we still do not have the survivability of a Guard. We have much better agro...FINALLY. We still have to balance DPS stats with Tanks stats quite a bit more than any warrior has to...and it takes great skill to excel at a casting tank class. You guys probably have legitimate concerns with Zerks, I never said you didn't. I just get [Removed for Content] when I hear a few of you guys complaining about where SKs are.....when in fact an extremely good SK was on par with a mediocre Guard in RoK. Now the really good SKs are standing out and people are using these top SKs as examples, and think that their class needs to be just as good even though they are not putting in the time for the class or learning their class as well.While you are up parsing these so called SK parses....make sure you include good sorcerers/enchanters/predators in those parses as well, unless you seem to be lacking in those.</blockquote> We dont do SoH anymore and i wouldnt talk about old content anyway. I also didnt say they was doing 10k ZW either, way to put words in my mouth chief. I challenge you to show me a Guard who parsed 10k ZW in any previous expansion. I said they can HIT "9521" on single target mobs in Palace and Tombs and parse 7-8k regularly and spiking to 9k. I would appreciate you at least use the numbers and the ways i have said SK/Pally are parsing and not twist them to suite your arguement. You dont have suvivablity???? I dunno about any other Guardian, but i dont think any of them can die once and get back to full health let alone 3 times. Guards cant parse near what a SK or Pally can as we stand now. I think thats the problem you are having because the extremely good SK and Pallys was doing everything a extremely good Guard was doing prior to TSO. You guys DID need some help and you got. I am not complaining about what you got, im happy that you guys are better now then you was, but dont sit there and tell me we should just be ok with being subpar on the parses and be ok with it. I dont know if you actually get the fact that DPS is the way tanks keep agro still and they nerfed us on that end seriously. I am complaining about being nerfed on the DPS end without being given any real way to make up for it. You can say YOU GOT NEW SNAP AGRO tools. I say WHO CARES ABOUT SNAP AGRO. I shouldnt have to " SNAP" agro crap all the freaking time. Why do i give a crapola what the scouts and mages are parsing? I dont see how this is relevant to the topic.</blockquote>Oh, and the reason for asking what your mages and scouts are parsing is because this is all relative in concerns of DPS. If the SK hit a 9.5k parse what did the assassins hit on that parse. I have parsed that high and guess what the Assassins were sitting at 13k+. I have done parses where I will hit 9-10k and the warlock will hit 14-15k. DPS is all relative in what other classes are parsing.Now back to the issue. Why are you completely ignoring the fact that tank revamp 2.0 is coming up? You keep asking for more DPS, why do you think you need more dps? Do you really think that mechanics can't be changed so that threat > dps? I saw an avatar bp the other day that adds +10 to base taunt. Sounds like a set-up for adding in other taunt modifiers since we know that +base on anything increases everything >>>> +crit, +damage, etc.Guards have always claimed that they made a Guard to be the MT. To take the hardest hits. If SOE can do this, and you can hold agro doing it without DPS...why do you think you need DPS? There is pretty much 1 guaranteed spot on a raid for a Guard in raids, that is more than quite a few other classes can say. The other tanks need this extra dps and utility to bring to raids because 90% of the time they will be sitting in a raid doing nothing otherwise.Again, I hope you get some agro adjustments....I just think you are going about it the wrong way asking for DPS.</blockquote>In other words, don't ask for anything before 2.0 comes, don't state any concerns with the class, and let everything unfold without a peep from the guardian playerbase. Don't worry guys, everything will work out.

Bruener

12-12-2008, 02:08 PM

In other words, stop trying to throw the balance out of whack again by pushing to have your DPS raised. Think of some other ideas to get the same effect.

Yank

12-12-2008, 02:24 PM

Fabled epic guard here, usually MT and a Paly as OT for raids.Pre-TSO this worked out good for us. Now not so much.He is out parsing me now.With amends on just about anyone he usually takes aggro at about 40-50% and has it till the end of the fight unless I use a snap...which to me is just stupid I have to use a snap on an OT. Raids now versus before TSO are a lot different as there really is no way I can compete with his aggro if he goes all out and has amends on someone. We raid 3 days a week usually and are more casual than hardcore and are just about to step into VP for our first time. ATM I would prefer it if he would tank but for some reason I am still tanking /shrug. Like I said, before TSO I could hold aggro in raids just fine but now its not even close and I am trying to figure out if I am doing something wrong or suck or what, its pretty frustrating atm. I can hold aggro on the rest of the raid np, but my OT/paly just blows me away as is now.Groups, well, not much to add to what has already been posted. I have to really watch my group makeups, hope and pray for a dirge or coercer but that rarely happens. I will say that the reduction to rescue recast is nice and I am using it alot more as well as reinforcement as I have to if I want to hold aggro in groups. In the end I usually just have to ask my group to ease up a tad and we seem to get by. I for one hope 2.0 comes sooner than later as I am struggling to have fun atm as I see my comrades take dirt naps and tanking more than I would like to see. And when I group with a mythical equipped toon ../sigh, that is real tough to deal with.

Salarionn

12-12-2008, 02:39 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>In other words, stop trying to throw the balance out of whack again by pushing to have your DPS raised. Think of some other ideas to get the same effect.</blockquote> My question is why do you think Crusaders should be able to parse like your parsing and we shouldnt expect camparable DPS? I mean the whole idea SOE is trying to make us all balanced. I dont see how you can logically explain to me how any plate class should be able to parse and another shouldnt be able to. We have a better tools , but you was given some of them in TSO as well. I ask you again, how do you feel you should be able to out DPS by the amount you are and feel its prefectly ok. I know if it was the other way around you wouldnt be singing the song your trying to make me sing

Salarionn

12-12-2008, 02:42 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>In other words, stop trying to throw the balance out of whack again by pushing to have your DPS raised. Think of some other ideas to get the same effect.</blockquote> nm..... LULZ is all i will say to this crapola if this is balanced to you man, then you are clueless and im done with it.

Bruener

12-12-2008, 02:47 PM

<cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>In other words, stop trying to throw the balance out of whack again by pushing to have your DPS raised. Think of some other ideas to get the same effect.</blockquote> My question is why do you think Crusaders should be able to parse like your parsing and we shouldnt expect camparable DPS? I mean the whole idea SOE is trying to make us all balanced. I dont see how you can logically explain to me how any plate class should be able to parse and another shouldnt be able to. We have a better tools , but you was given some of them in TSO as well. I ask you again, how do you feel you should be able to out DPS by the amount you are and feel its prefectly ok. I know if it was the other way around you wouldnt be singing the song your trying to make me sing</blockquote>It was the other way around in RoK. Here is the difference. I don't necessarily think Paladins should be out parsing you but as a SK I do not have close to as many survivability tools as a Guard does. I give up a lot of survivability to have the DPS that I currently do.My question to you is why do you think you should have the BEST survivability and good DPS? So that you can rule an x-pac again like you did in RoK? SKs are not picked as MT's on raids...meaning they have to have something to offer the raid other than tank ability since we all know 80% of the raids are still single target, or 1 tank-able. If the Guard is going to be the BEST at being that MT spot than why should they be given other tools that make them wanted for more than 1 spot in a raid? Now, I have no clue how this works out with Zerker because I have heard come 200 AAs they are really close to Guards in survivability plus their DPS is really good. There might be a beef there. As far as Crusaders though we are finally at a spot we should be. We bring enough bonuses to the raid now that raids are actually finding spots for us.

Salarionn

12-12-2008, 02:52 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>In other words, stop trying to throw the balance out of whack again by pushing to have your DPS raised. Think of some other ideas to get the same effect.</blockquote> My question is why do you think Crusaders should be able to parse like your parsing and we shouldnt expect camparable DPS? I mean the whole idea SOE is trying to make us all balanced. I dont see how you can logically explain to me how any plate class should be able to parse and another shouldnt be able to. We have a better tools , but you was given some of them in TSO as well. I ask you again, how do you feel you should be able to out DPS by the amount you are and feel its prefectly ok. I know if it was the other way around you wouldnt be singing the song your trying to make me sing</blockquote>It was the other way around in RoK. Here is the difference. I don't necessarily think Paladins should be out parsing you but as a SK I do not have close to as many survivability tools as a Guard does. I give up a lot of survivability to have the DPS that I currently do.My question to you is why do you think you should have the BEST survivability and good DPS? So that you can rule an x-pac again like you did in RoK? SKs are not picked as MT's on raids...meaning they have to have something to offer the raid other than tank ability since we all know 80% of the raids are still single target, or 1 tank-able. If the Guard is going to be the BEST at being that MT spot than why should they be given other tools that make them wanted for more than 1 spot in a raid? Now, I have no clue how this works out with Zerker because I have heard come 200 AAs they are really close to Guards in survivability plus their DPS is really good. There might be a beef there. As far as Crusaders though we are finally at a spot we should be. We bring enough bonuses to the raid now that raids are actually finding spots for us</blockquote>like i said im done with it. You think its balanced and i think your nuts... we can go back and forth all day with this, but its pointless.

Bruener

12-12-2008, 03:05 PM

Good, be done because obviously you can't read. I have stated over and over that Guards could use some help with some agro-management. DPS is not the answer though. Good luck with the changes. Hopefully they address the issues, but don't expect to see it done through DPS.

Kimber

12-12-2008, 10:58 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ahhh, I see what your saying in your example...Guardians can do a little more in single target situations than a Berzerker but Berzerkers can own the hell out of a Guardian in AOE situations so they are balanced. Also, because Zerkers where so unbalanced for so long it's ok that now they can almost equal or better a Guardian in every single way.Know the main flaw in your argument?? Berzerkers out DPS Guardians in single target situations, DPS = Hate, so Berzerkers while have more AOE agro, they also have more single target agro. With AA's Berzerkers gain Hate on Adrenalin and an AOE rescue... wow, both work on single targets so Berzerkers have the same number of agro tools as a Guardian. Throw in the Zerker Mythical with 25% inc damage = hate and a mini rescue on Gibe and they are way in front.Guardians aren't complaining they have low AOE Agro, they are complaining about why they should have to give up AOE agro when Berzerkers are so close in single target agro and defensive abilities.Listing 2 fictional abilities doesn't prove anything except you're an idiot.</blockquote>K whatever I guess you as a Guardian must know all and twist everything around so that you can /cry more till you get your way. Evedently you should learn to read cause I believe I said in my post that while things are broken now they should be getting fixed and that I was keeping it simple. As for your whole argument yes I will agree many of out AOE tools work on single tartgets but just as what I said in the post above they hit for less the reason a Zerk out parse you in a group because we have more CA's than you do. Also a fighter using 2 weapons will do more damage than one playing turtle behind a tower shield. Face it Shadow you are a Def Single Target Tank and are going to do less damage than a AOE Tank so I guess you need to learn to Taunt to hold aggro.

Soul_Dreamer

12-13-2008, 12:17 AM

Who is "Shadow"?Just FYI incase you've given me some sort of pet name, which I'm not comforatable with btw <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , I use every single skill I have to keep agro on me while timing auto attacks, well, except one, 2 second cast time for a green low taunt/low damage CA, no way am I casting that with less than 3 targets.On almost ANY epic Trash fight and all herioc instances where I can, I'm duel weilding Claw of Khalen/Fingerbone rapier and my mythical just to keep agro. I only ever hide behind my shield on orange named, if I do at other times, I'l loose agro to our guilds Wizard/Assassin/Brigand/SK.MT and OT groups in raids are..Guardian - Defiler - Templar - Dirge - Coercer - Assassin.SK - Mystic - Templar/Inquis (depends who online) - Dirge - Coercer - Swashy.

YummiOger

12-13-2008, 10:55 AM

Well i can tell u this..I played a Zerker for 2 years thru KoS and EoF, Awsome class and actually was considered supirior to guardians cuz of the closeness of single target DPS (actually i could do more) and Massive AE DPS aggro control. When we were given Adrenaline it was a god send,, 50% reductio to ALL targets .. period .. wow...Then RoK rolled around and i levled my Zerk to 80, saw all the abilities and DPS numbers the guardians aquired. Also the EVERY target in RoK was single target = Better for Guards. So after 2.5 years of Zerk happiness i betrayed to Guardian for their nice single target abilities to MT for my guild with. Cuz honestly, guards were better single target and there was a total of 2 Raid targets (out of ~25) that needed AE aggro. SO yay 4 guards!!Now the Pendulum has swung agian.. and SOE has heavy handed the Tanks. The time of the Zerker is nigh once agian...Now Was it the Guardians Classes fault SOE designed an entire expansion of single mobs?? no.Was the Guardian just doing what they were designed to do, but the enviroment did not support the abilities of the AE tanks? i think so ...Was it indeed just an enviroment problem? What if Raids were built like Lab. of Lord Vymm? or Emerald Halls? with a proper mix of both AE and Single target mobs? Would the AE classes have felt so betrayed? ...I think it was indeed just an Enviromental Problem. Guards were OP, but that enviroment but not in normal function. Now the Enviroment is back to Normal in TSO, i see a good mix of AE + Single target.BUT the tanks were also changed in backlash response to the unbalance in ROK. Guards = Reduced (Cuz they were visualized as OP!) and AE Classes Buffed! (cuz they had no targets in RoK).now instead of balance we have this: A NORMAL encounter mixture - mechanical Reduction in Single target Tanks - mechanical Increase to AE tanks. = STILL NOT IN BALANCE.The ENVIROMENT was the problem .. not the Tanks.AE DPS tanks are goin to absolutly PAWN single target Tanks... Cuz, just like in KoS and EoF, they can do everything a Single tank can do PLUS massive AE threat/DPS.

Vildainn

12-14-2008, 06:00 PM

Very well put I agree. The encounters have been so back and forth in expansion its causing FOTM Tanks and 1 expansion a tank may look way overpowered but right now numbers are backing that up.Guards was looked at massive in last expansion so now they got hit. There is a decent mix in this expansion however the classes got hit now and we got hit pretty hard.

Gisallo

12-14-2008, 08:55 PM

<cite><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> Now, I have no clue how this works out with Zerker because I have heard come 200 AAs they are really close to Guards in survivability plus their DPS is really good. There might be a beef there. As far as Crusaders though we are finally at a spot we should be. We bring enough bonuses to the raid now that raids are actually finding spots for us.</blockquote>Basically here is how that works. The single target thing is balanced half decently now. Guards have moderately more durability zerkers have moderately higher dps in Single target encounters. The problem rises with AE encounters. The parses differences there can grow exponentially just due to simple math. Each extra mob you add is another target for damage and thus is more dps on the parse. With Aeralik saying that anything we get come 2.0 is going to be hate gain and not dps, I don't see this changing. Its this exponential increase that I see as making the balance hard. If Aeralik does what he says...no more dps just hps...how do we parse it and show that in terms of aggro generation things have been corrected. Also how does this model, even if we can parse it, stop single target classes fro m saying "so what if I can hold the aggro, the AoEers are doing more over all dps because of the math in those AE encounters so they will be in more demand because they will help burn all the mobs down faster." The whole idea of balancing regarding aoe and st is silly. I will avoid the SK argument though I have some VERY unusual parses for even single target encounters involving them but one flame war is enough for me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />.

Mogzilla

12-15-2008, 03:42 PM

<cite>Ahdam@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well i can tell u this..I played a Zerker for 2 years thru KoS and EoF, Awsome class and actually was considered supirior to guardians cuz of the closeness of single target DPS (actually i could do more) and Massive AE DPS aggro control. When we were given Adrenaline it was a god send,, 50% reductio to ALL targets .. period .. wow...Then RoK rolled around and i levled my Zerk to 80, saw all the abilities and DPS numbers the guardians aquired. Also the EVERY target in RoK was single target = Better for Guards. So after 2.5 years of Zerk happiness i betrayed to Guardian for their nice single target abilities to MT for my guild with. Cuz honestly, guards were better single target and there was a total of 2 Raid targets (out of ~25) that needed AE aggro. SO yay 4 guards!!Now the Pendulum has swung agian.. and SOE has heavy handed the Tanks. The time of the Zerker is nigh once agian...Now Was it the Guardians Classes fault SOE designed an entire expansion of single mobs?? no.Was the Guardian just doing what they were designed to do, but the enviroment did not support the abilities of the AE tanks? i think so ...Was it indeed just an enviroment problem? What if Raids were built like Lab. of Lord Vymm? or Emerald Halls? with a proper mix of both AE and Single target mobs? Would the AE classes have felt so betrayed? ...I think it was indeed just an Enviromental Problem. Guards were OP, but that enviroment but not in normal function. Now the Enviroment is back to Normal in TSO, i see a good mix of AE + Single target.BUT the tanks were also changed in backlash response to the unbalance in ROK. Guards = Reduced (Cuz they were visualized as OP!) and AE Classes Buffed! (cuz they had no targets in RoK).now instead of balance we have this: A NORMAL encounter mixture - mechanical Reduction in Single target Tanks - mechanical Increase to AE tanks. = STILL NOT IN BALANCE.The ENVIROMENT was the problem .. not the Tanks.AE DPS tanks are goin to absolutly PAWN single target Tanks... Cuz, just like in KoS and EoF, they can do everything a Single tank can do PLUS massive AE threat/DPS.</blockquote>I think this sums it up, except SK really were borked in ROK. The dps, surviability, and aggro were sub par only exceptional/good SK's could make the class even playable outside of soloing, not really true of the warriors. Although I think they may have gone overboard with some of the changes.

RafaelSmith

12-15-2008, 04:29 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ahdam@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well i can tell u this..I played a Zerker for 2 years thru KoS and EoF, Awsome class and actually was considered supirior to guardians cuz of the closeness of single target DPS (actually i could do more) and Massive AE DPS aggro control. When we were given Adrenaline it was a god send,, 50% reductio to ALL targets .. period .. wow...Then RoK rolled around and i levled my Zerk to 80, saw all the abilities and DPS numbers the guardians aquired. Also the EVERY target in RoK was single target = Better for Guards. So after 2.5 years of Zerk happiness i betrayed to Guardian for their nice single target abilities to MT for my guild with. Cuz honestly, guards were better single target and there was a total of 2 Raid targets (out of ~25) that needed AE aggro. SO yay 4 guards!!Now the Pendulum has swung agian.. and SOE has heavy handed the Tanks. The time of the Zerker is nigh once agian...Now Was it the Guardians Classes fault SOE designed an entire expansion of single mobs?? no.Was the Guardian just doing what they were designed to do, but the enviroment did not support the abilities of the AE tanks? i think so ...Was it indeed just an enviroment problem? What if Raids were built like Lab. of Lord Vymm? or Emerald Halls? with a proper mix of both AE and Single target mobs? Would the AE classes have felt so betrayed? ...I think it was indeed just an Enviromental Problem. Guards were OP, but that enviroment but not in normal function. Now the Enviroment is back to Normal in TSO, i see a good mix of AE + Single target.BUT the tanks were also changed in backlash response to the unbalance in ROK. Guards = Reduced (Cuz they were visualized as OP!) and AE Classes Buffed! (cuz they had no targets in RoK).now instead of balance we have this: A NORMAL encounter mixture - mechanical Reduction in Single target Tanks - mechanical Increase to AE tanks. = STILL NOT IN BALANCE.The ENVIROMENT was the problem .. not the Tanks.AE DPS tanks are goin to absolutly PAWN single target Tanks... Cuz, just like in KoS and EoF, they can do everything a Single tank can do PLUS massive AE threat/DPS.</blockquote>I think this sums it up, except SK really were borked in ROK. The dps, surviability, and aggro were sub par only exceptional/good SK's could make the class even playable outside of soloing, not really true of the warriors.Although I think they may have gone overboard with some of the changes.</blockquote>Agreed. I was fortunate to have only had one of those well played/geared SKs as my basis to judge SKs by...but in talking with him..I can see where overall as a class they needed some tweaks.I think SOE has access to the same type of parses and such we as players are seeing....so unless they truely are biased towad one class or another...hopefully some more tweaks are in the works.A part of me is optimistic about round #2 but the other part of me that has been dealing with SOE for 10+ years is not.

Drozan71

12-16-2008, 12:01 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> Now, I have no clue how this works out with Zerker because I have heard come 200 AAs they are really close to Guards in survivability plus their DPS is really good. There might be a beef there. As far as Crusaders though we are finally at a spot we should be. We bring enough bonuses to the raid now that raids are actually finding spots for us.</blockquote>Basically here is how that works. The single target thing is balanced half decently now. Guards have moderately more durability zerkers have moderately higher dps in Single target encounters. The problem rises with AE encounters. The parses differences there can grow exponentially just due to simple math. Each extra mob you add is another target for damage and thus is more dps on the parse. With Aeralik saying that anything we get come 2.0 is going to be hate gain and not dps, I don't see this changing. Its this exponential increase that I see as making the balance hard. If Aeralik does what he says...no more dps just hps...how do we parse it and show that in terms of aggro generation things have been corrected. Also how does this model, even if we can parse it, stop single target classes fro m saying "so what if I can hold the aggro, the AoEers are doing more over all dps because of the math in those AE encounters so they will be in more demand because they will help burn all the mobs down faster." The whole idea of balancing regarding aoe and st is silly. I will avoid the SK argument though I have some VERY unusual parses for even single target encounters involving them but one flame war is enough for me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />.</blockquote>This is how I see it. Zerkers, SK and Pally all want viability for tanking. So we as a community of Fighters and Crusaders should come up with an "Agreeable" Formula on how each class should perform. This is how I see things...(The below numbers are just for illustration purposes and may or may not be an accurate portrayl of how it should be)Below is for single and AE targetsDamage Taken tableGuard - 10 % more mitigation then ZerkGuard - 7 % more mitigation then Pally (Wards and Heals provide mitigation, adjusted for heal/ward mit figured out)Guard - 13 % more mitigation then SK (Taps provide mitigation, adjust this number once tap mit is figured out)Damage Dealt table (Single and AE Encounters)Guard - 10 % less Dps then Zerk Guard - Same Dps or 5 % more then Pally (Guards are masters of weaponry, hence doing same or more dps)Guard - 10 % less Dps then SKAgro generation (Single and AE)Guard - 10 % more on single, 10 % less on AE compared to ZerksGuard - Same on single, 3% more on AE compared to PallyGuard - 8 % more on single, 8 % less on AE compared with SKAgain, the above numbers will be tweaked but I think it gives a decent representation of how the classes line up compared to one another. Guard and Pally being a bit more beefy, Zerk and SK taking a lil more dmg but also doin more dmg. For Agro control, Guard and Pally are a lil better with singles where as the Zerk and SK are a bit better with AE mobs.It all comes down to this... Guards are obviously the measuring point for ALL the tank classes. It seems all the fighters want to be able to tank like a Guard but want uniqueness( some want to tank like a Guard and want all their other benefits on top of it also...) Anyways if you want to tank ALL the content you are going to have to give up your AE dmg and AE agro control or have the tanks that lack in those areas get mega boosted to make the playing field more even.Sorry I didnt forget about Monks and Bruisers, I was mainly trying to compare the plate tanks. Please feel free to add the Leather tanks in there with the Monk being a bit better with Mitigation and the Bruiser being a bit more Dps.

TuinalOfTheNexus

12-16-2008, 11:26 PM

<cite>Ahdam@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Was the Guardian just doing what they were designed to do, but the enviroment did not support the abilities of the AE tanks? i think so ...Was it indeed just an enviroment problem? What if Raids were built like Lab. of Lord Vymm? or Emerald Halls? with a proper mix of both AE and Single target mobs? Would the AE classes have felt so betrayed? ...I think it was indeed just an Enviromental Problem. Guards were OP, but that enviroment but not in normal function. Now the Enviroment is back to Normal in TSO, i see a good mix of AE + Single target.BUT the tanks were also changed in backlash response to the unbalance in ROK. Guards = Reduced (Cuz they were visualized as OP!) and AE Classes Buffed! (cuz they had no targets in RoK).now instead of balance we have this: A NORMAL encounter mixture - mechanical Reduction in Single target Tanks - mechanical Increase to AE tanks. = STILL NOT IN BALANCE.The ENVIROMENT was the problem .. not the Tanks.AE DPS tanks are goin to absolutly PAWN single target Tanks... Cuz, just like in KoS and EoF, they can do everything a Single tank can do PLUS massive AE threat/DPS.</blockquote>This is exactly the problem really.RoK had too much single target content, no question. This led to single target classes being percieved as overpowered.Nerfing these classes, though, wasn't necesary, since TSO is full of AE content (some might say too much AE content).The double-whammy of nerfing Guardians, already a weak AE class, and introducing an expansion full of AE content, has nerfed this class to near-pointlessness. The only useful niche it fills is as a raid MT on a small minority of encounters that have curses intended to kill the tank and that virtually require ToS. If you're not a raid MT, and don't betray to Zerker, you're an idiot. If you're making a new Fighter toon for grouping and casual raiding, and pick anything other than SK, you're also none too bright.I welcome a long overdue fix for SKs, even if it was ridiculous overcompensation and has led to an uberclass that can basically tank most instances without needing heals while parsing like a mage. But the double attack reduction on the Sta line was way too much and it's left any Guardian without really high end gear (e.g. Stormbringer + Mythical) as a pretty feeble tank.The class needs either a significant bit of DPS back (a crusader-style autoattack DPS boost AA would be reasonable), or it needs more survivability tools directly targetted at heroic content. Perhaps adding a % chance to absorb any hit less than 50% of the Guardian's health on Fortification, to something like 15% at M1. This wouldn't really change things raiding, but it would give groups a decent incentive to put up with the 2nd rate DPS and aggro control of a legendary-geared guard in a pickup group.

Gisallo

12-16-2008, 11:31 PM

<cite>Drozan71 wrote:</cite><blockquote>It all comes down to this... Guards are obviously the measuring point for ALL the tank classes. It seems all the fighters want to be able to tank like a Guard but want uniqueness( some want to tank like a Guard and want all their other benefits on top of it also...) Anyways if you want to tank ALL the content you are going to have to give up your AE dmg and AE agro control or have the tanks that lack in those areas get mega boosted to make the playing field more even.Sorry I didnt forget about Monks and Bruisers, I was mainly trying to compare the plate tanks. Please feel free to add the Leather tanks in there with the Monk being a bit better with Mitigation and the Bruiser being a bit more Dps.</blockquote>First WARRIORS are the tarting point friend, not guards. From lauch Guards and Zerks were supposed to be brothers of a sort, one more defensive, the other offensive in nature, but still able to do the same thing. Guards only became the measuring stick do to sloppy evolution and a lack of balanced content.That being said if they were designing the game from the ground up under this theory it could be workable. First you would ahve to design balanced content. There is no way you can have an expansion that is mostly ST and then one mostly AE without having specialists. Problem is you can't have a tank class be viable in all types of play (not equal just viable) if they are pure specialists. Add to this that Pallys are now somehow single target now with more blue aoes than any plate wearer. You would basically reduce the damage on those to NOTHING and then the question is asked "what do we get in return?" This is only one example of the complications that would be raised by trying to directly mess with dps at this point any more than just the more generic stuff they have done. Also some of the AoE damage is from procs which are by definition random to one extent or another, which makes it even harder. Add to this that the issue of having classes where the bulk of their AE aggro has been and still is dps AND the fact teh devs have said that they want to change the idea from hps to dps, but wanted to do this the easy way by messing with AA trees that classes share so they can try and do this with less coding rather than messing with CA's one by one.. The fact that Aeralik has gone so far as to say "I want fighters thinking in HPS and not dps" pretty much makes me think that most of the changes will be done in raw hate generation not in messing with dps anymore which makes it a further non-starter as they are concerned. I think we are all going to have to acknowledge that we all have lost dps. One can argue if it hit one class more than another but I really don't see anyone (except maybe brawlers) getting any extra dps anywhere regardless of teh arguments raised. This is just coming from being a ranger since I started playing this game and watching Aeralik's reactions when he is told he is wrong in terms of Assassin Ranger balance. I do see classes getting hate generation increased and when there are cries from anyone about dps I think the answer will be "your job is to maintain aggro, not dps the mob, you can do that now according to our hps calculations...this has been a public service announcement from SoE". Do I think this is a great idea? Nope. Do I see it happening? Yep.

Salarionn

12-17-2008, 11:07 AM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drozan71 wrote:</cite><blockquote>It all comes down to this... Guards are obviously the measuring point for ALL the tank classes. It seems all the fighters want to be able to tank like a Guard but want uniqueness( some want to tank like a Guard and want all their other benefits on top of it also...) Anyways if you want to tank ALL the content you are going to have to give up your AE dmg and AE agro control or have the tanks that lack in those areas get mega boosted to make the playing field more even.Sorry I didnt forget about Monks and Bruisers, I was mainly trying to compare the plate tanks. Please feel free to add the Leather tanks in there with the Monk being a bit better with Mitigation and the Bruiser being a bit more Dps.</blockquote>First WARRIORS are the tarting point friend, not guards. From lauch Guards and Zerks were supposed to be brothers of a sort, one more defensive, the other offensive in nature, but still able to do the same thing. Guards only became the measuring stick do to sloppy evolution and a lack of balanced content.That being said if they were designing the game from the ground up under this theory it could be workable. First you would ahve to design balanced content. There is no way you can have an expansion that is mostly ST and then one mostly AE without having specialists. Problem is you can't have a tank class be viable in all types of play (not equal just viable) if they are pure specialists. Add to this that Pallys are now somehow single target now with more blue aoes than any plate wearer. You would basically reduce the damage on those to NOTHING and then the question is asked "what do we get in return?" This is only one example of the complications that would be raised by trying to directly mess with dps at this point any more than just the more generic stuff they have done. Also some of the AoE damage is from procs which are by definition random to one extent or another, which makes it even harder. Add to this that the issue of having classes where the bulk of their AE aggro has been and still is dps AND the fact teh devs have said that they want to change the idea from hps to dps, but wanted to do this the easy way by messing with AA trees that classes share so they can try and do this with less coding rather than messing with CA's one by one.. The fact that Aeralik has gone so far as to say "I want fighters thinking in HPS and not dps" pretty much makes me think that most of the changes will be done in raw hate generation not in messing with dps anymore which makes it a further non-starter as they are concerned. I think we are all going to have to acknowledge that we all have lost dps. One can argue if it hit one class more than another but I really don't see anyone (except maybe brawlers) getting any extra dps anywhere regardless of teh arguments raised. This is just coming from being a ranger since I started playing this game and watching Aeralik's reactions when he is told he is wrong in terms of Assassin Ranger balance. I do see classes getting hate generation increased and when there are cries from anyone about dps I think the answer will be "your job is to maintain aggro, not dps the mob, you can do that now according to our hps calculations...this has been a public service announcement from SoE". Do I think this is a great idea? Nope. Do I see it happening? Yep.</blockquote> He (Aeralik) reduced casting times on Crusaders spells, gave them AA to boost spell damage. so i think your crazy if you think he didnt install things to make up for the lack of auto attack damage. You think this was on accident? I dont care about DPS , but when DPS is how agro is generated in the game then yes i want my DPS back. They said they was going to give us fixes to the DPS issue long before this expansion came out yet they have not. They never did a 1.0 IMO. You think 2.0 is going to make this huge difference your nuts. LU13 all over again when this goes live and i see them losing as many accounts as they lost when they screwed up then. Assassin verdict is awesome btw. I am sure the rangers love that assassins have this as a AA LULZ.

Gisallo

12-17-2008, 01:55 PM

<cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote> He (Aeralik) reduced casting times on Crusaders spells, gave them AA to boost spell damage. so i think your crazy if you think he didnt install things to make up for the lack of auto attack damage. You think this was on accident? I dont care about DPS , but when DPS is how agro is generated in the game then yes i want my DPS back. They said they was going to give us fixes to the DPS issue long before this expansion came out yet they have not. They never did a 1.0 IMO. You think 2.0 is going to make this huge difference your nuts. LU13 all over again when this goes live and i see them losing as many accounts as they lost when they screwed up then. Assassin verdict is awesome btw. I am sure the rangers love that assassins have this as a AA LULZ.</blockquote>I agree that Aeralik has been inconsistent with his statements but this is part of his logic. I am sure he has a rationalization (crusaders have far lower surviveability so they need a damage boost...or something) but there it is. I think the thing is though is that Aeralik has said specifically "I want the fighters to stop thinking in terms of dps but rather think in terms of hps." This leads me to believe we will see jumps in hate generation but not necessarily dps.And please don't remind me about the Assassin verdict. Makes me cry.

RafaelSmith

12-17-2008, 02:40 PM

<cite>Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Salarionn wrote:</cite><blockquote>He (Aeralik) reduced casting times on Crusaders spells, gave them AA to boost spell damage. so i think your crazy if you think he didnt install things to make up for the lack of auto attack damage. You think this was on accident? I dont care about DPS , but when DPS is how agro is generated in the game then yes i want my DPS back. They said they was going to give us fixes to the DPS issue long before this expansion came out yet they have not. They never did a 1.0 IMO. You think 2.0 is going to make this huge difference your nuts. LU13 all over again when this goes live and i see them losing as many accounts as they lost when they screwed up then.Assassin verdict is awesome btw. I am sure the rangers love that assassins have this as a AA LULZ.</blockquote>I agree that Aeralik has been inconsistent with his statements but this is part of his logic. I am sure he has a rationalization (crusaders have far lower surviveability so they need a damage boost...or something) but there it is. I think the thing is though is that Aeralik has said specifically "I want the fighters to stop thinking in terms of dps but rather think in terms of hps." This leads me to believe we will see jumps in hate generation but not necessarily dps.And please don't remind me about the Assassin verdict. Makes me cry.</blockquote>I hate when people accuse game developers of not knowing classes and such...but in this case it sure does seem like he has no clue how some of the fighter classes work or are played.The belief that you can balance around AE -vs- Single target and maintain "equality" is beyond flawed.