Could we redefine "group," please? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Spontz

12-01-2008, 09:07 PM

Playing some of the new group content has made it clear to me that the devs and I have very different definitions of "group." I define a group as two to six friends and guildmates, of varying levels, degrees of skill, and spiffiness of gear. The devs apparently define a group as six level 80 hard-core raiders with all the best stuff in the game.As an example: Befallen. I tried this with a full guild group last night, levels ranging from 54 to 80. We all mentored down to 54, and we were repeatedly slaughtered by the enormous waves of very nasty undead that appeared so quickly that we were usually fighting two or three encounters at once. Then we tried mentoring to 59, then 61 (in the same instance), and even when the undead were all green to us, we were being ripped to shreds before we could get anywhere near the fellow who was summoning them. I shudder to think of what would happen to us in a level 80 instance.When I played Eve Online, the instances there scaled automatically to the level and number of people in a group. I'd love to see something like this in EQII, or at least to see some content (other than doing solo quests as a group) for smaller or less super-uber-awesome-l33t groups.

JenarieII

12-01-2008, 09:16 PM

Try some of the other zones. The nice thing about this expansion is that there are several levels of hard so everyone has something to do. I haven't done any 'advanced' ones yet but I've had fun going to the easy ones with any six guild members who happen to be online and I've also had fun going to the 'moderately advanced' ones with a well balanced group of raiders. Cavern of the Afflicted is listed as 'moderately easy' but that's only with a decent amount of DPS... you have to keep moving. Also, our tank told us to not hit mobs as they are incoming because some of the group is probably in range still of some other group... waiting until they are all in camp seems to help avoid some social agro.EDIT: Dev posted in another thread that the HPs are being reduced in mentored dungeons. So... try again (although I'd still skip CotA if you don't have a well balanced group at least to start out with). I'd really recommend the Everforst ones. EverfrostMiragul’s Phylactery: Scion of Ice Miragul’s Phylactery: The Anathema Miragul’s Phylactery: The Crucible LavastormThe Deep Forge Najena’s Hollow CommonlandsCavern of the Afflicted Befallen: Halls of the Forsaken Necrotic Asylum Loping PlainsEvernight Abbey Mistmyr Manor Ravenscale Repository Fens of NathsarVeksar Nu’Roga Kor’sha Moors of YkeshaObelisk of Ahkzul Anchor of Bazzul Upper Guk Lower Guk Palace of Ferzhul Guk Stronghold DifficultyEasy Easy to Moderate ModerateModerate to Advanced Advanced

Killerbee3000

12-01-2008, 09:39 PM

<cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>As an example: Befallen. I tried this with a full guild group last night, levels ranging from 54 to 80. We all mentored down to 54, and we were repeatedly slaughtered</blockquote>The reason for that happening is that unfortunately the zones currently dont scale correctly (except scion of ice ones which have been somewhat fixed), so you where basically facing level appropriate mobs but with the hp, dps, aoe's and effects of level 80 mobs.A patch is on the way for it, should make it to live this week according to a dev post in a other part of the forum.

feldon30

12-01-2008, 09:47 PM

My first experience with Befallen: Cavern of the Afflicted was not Easy. The fast respawns and large groups sent us packing. (Edited)Try:<ul><li>Miragul's: Scion of Ice (should be able to clear it)</li><li>Najena's: Deep Forge (don't bother with the boss)</li><li>Najena's Hollow (again, don't bother with the last nameds)</li><li>Obelisk of Ahkzul (no shards, but 15plat chest and some great loot possibilities)</li></ul>The bonus shard chests for Scion of Ice and Najena's Hollow are easy to get, so that's 2 shards per dungeon. 4 shards if you happen to be doing the Daily Double (and got the quest in Moors for it). If you do two dungeons a day for a week and a half and you should have ~40 shards per person, which is enough for the full set of regular Void Shard armor if you have someone tradeskill them for you (1 void shard discount per piece).Another week and you've got a few jewelry items plus one magical jewelry or one shield/charm/cloak/other item. The charm slot items are particularly effective upgrades over the extremely limited options we have had in the past.

12-01-2008, 09:56 PM

<cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I define a group as two to six friends and guildmates, of varying levels, degrees of skill, and spiffiness of gear. The devs apparently define a group as six level 80 hard-core raiders with all the best stuff in the game.</blockquote>The Dev's define a group as 6 equal level folks. Nice jab at raiders but they are innocent in this. Part of the problem you experienced is the fact that scaling doesn't work well in these new instances, dev's have already posted this. My suggestion is have everyone level 80 and your group of 6 should be fine.Also realize that some of these dungeons are progressive, meaning that you need to get the later set of legendary void shard gear in-order to acomplish them.

Giral

12-01-2008, 10:19 PM

what i find sadly amusing is that on these very forums , for years, group players have been asking for group content to be engaging, challanging, and more like mini raids , where the group has to work as a team to complete zones, do quests in the zones , figure out scripts and get alternate rewards from doing the zones then just drop items(wonder where all the group players that have been asking for this are /ponder... oh yeah lol they are playing in TSO )also they have asked for fabled items from solo and group quests and zones ....you got that also ( i dont see raiders crying the blues over it either /wierd huh ? , those bad evil mean raider jerkheads /chuckle )the devs have heard your pleas, they have given the group game exactly what it has been lacking, and what it has been Begging for. you have gotten ALL of the above , and add to it you also have Progression, you have an entire year to Work on these Zones ( and IMO they will ALL be beaten by Casual groupers within the next 2 months or less )i have seen Massive amounts of returning players in TSO , and every one i know has been having a Blast in the new group zones, and the lvl channel is full of people looking for groups for these group zones , alot of raid guild have even halted raiding for a week or more to play around in them, they truely did a fantastic job of it , and i perosnaly suggest finding a couple more friend to go into these zones , it is worth it )this is a 90 % a level 80 expansion , it is ment for progression from the Lvl 80 ROK zones, you can still go there you know that right ? those zones still exist : ) and Many players still need thier Epic quest updates in those zones,can you walts right into any zone in TSo and clear it with any group ? NOcan any Guild Worldwide Walk into the hardest Raid zone in TSO right now and clear it ? NOgroupers need to gear up thru the lesser group zones, get shard gear, drops, quest items, to advance to the harder zonesRaidrs need to do the lesser raids to gear up to get to advance to the harder zonesyour level 80 with the ability to get 200 aa's , the game can't stay Carebear forever , it was bleeding players like a wet diaper at endgame , if you didn't take note of the barren wasteland onmost servers at peak hours of the day ,in total with the rok zones you have over 27 Group Dungeons in the game to play in, you Have Scalable instances in TSO you can bring in a lower toon that you can lower the mobs down a bit, and Walla you have a group instance in TSO that Less then a full group can clear .

Brigh

12-01-2008, 11:37 PM

<cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I played Eve Online, the instances there scaled automatically to the level and number of people in a group. I'd love to see something like this in EQII, or at least to see some content (other than doing solo quests as a group) for smaller or less super-uber-awesome-l33t groups.</blockquote>This must be a mistake.Eve Online has no levels and no instances.

liveja

12-01-2008, 11:50 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Befallen: Cavern of the Afflicted is not Easy.</blockquote>Actually, the one time I've done it -- with a non-raid-geared PUG -- it was mostly easy. We wiped twice, entirely due to poor execution on our parts; both times we picked ourselves up, wiped off the dust, & drove on.I'm just not understanding why people think CotA is "hard", I guess.

Spontz

12-02-2008, 01:20 AM

JenarieII -- Thank you! That's a most helpful list. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Killerbee3000 -- Thanks for explaining that. I hadn't realized it was a known bug, though it did have a certain glitchy flavor to it.feldon30 -- I've tried the Scion of Ice dungeon, and it wasn't difficult with a full mentored group. But I do wish there were a few that could be completed unmentored, with less than a full group.Ohiv -- I wasn't making a jab at raiders. My complaint is directed to the developers, which should be obvious. I am basing my complaint upon my experience with a full group of level 80 characters, none of whom had raid-level gear (or at least not much of it). If the devs have designed the dungeons so that you really need raid-level gear to survive them, I fail to see how I'm making a jab at raiders if I point out that this leaves non-raiders out in the cold. I have no problem with raiders and raiding. But if you need raid gear to survive a group dungeon, that kinda defeats the purpose (assuming the purpose really is to give non-raiders something to do).Giralus -- A challenge would be fantastic. I'd love to see one. I've been waiting to see one from the day I first installed EQ2. So far, I've seen only things that are far too easy, things that are impossible until I find a write-up online but too easy afterward, and "challenges" like the one in Befallen. Endless waves of mobs aren't a challenge, they're an annoyance. One triple-wave was a fantastic fight, took coordination and concentration. We were thrilled to survive. Then another triple-wave hit before we'd even regained half our power -- that's not a challenge, that's either a bug or bad design.As for this being 90% a level 80 zone, if that's the case, then why do the dungeons scale down to level 50?Brigh -- Sorry, slight error in communication. I maintained EQ2 terms. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Eve does have instances, in the form of complexes, which would become more powerful based on the number of players and (if I recall correctly) ship types. Eve has no levels, but it does have ship types, which, since you need certain skill levels, works out to more or less the same thing.

wellehad0

12-02-2008, 01:53 AM

yes the instance is hard but you dont need raid geared groups to do it.. befallen is on of thoughs places where 2-3 healers is a must if you go 2 we found out that warden mystic combo works best for the instances and if you have another healer wich we did use the second time in we used a group of SK ranger swasy mystic warden templar the zone was then easy mode.. i will admit you need teamwork in these really in game voice or vent is a must so that your hole groups is on the same page...i do fill bad for some of you anti social people hate joining groups but you had your expansion let us social people have are expansion and please fore love of all things pleae stop crying that things are too hard the game has been water down so much that it has killed the game i give SOE props for making somthing hard and finnaly making you fill like you did somthing worthy when you do these

Brigh

12-02-2008, 02:03 AM

<cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brigh -- Sorry, slight error in communication. I maintained EQ2 terms. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Eve does have instances, in the form of complexes, which would become more powerful based on the number of players and (if I recall correctly) ship types. Eve has no levels, but it does have ship types, which, since you need certain skill levels, works out to more or less the same thing.</blockquote>Instances implies only you and / or your group can enter. Eve has none of these. Anyone can get into your 'plex'.They do not scale. They are what they are. Sometimes they have DED ratings to give you an indication (and an actual blocking out if you dont have the proper ship type) of the difficulty.Yes I play Eve Online (since January of this year).

Sedenten

12-02-2008, 02:11 AM

Most of the new instances have little tricks to them. The Caverns instance off of Befallen, has lots and lots of encounter stuff. The respawn you're seeing towards the beginning will continue until the named in the second room is killed. Like has been said earlier in the thread, the hit points and such are bugged for the mentoring.If you were in a non-mentored group with poor encounter DPS, you can get around that limitation in this zone by simply killing all but one of each encounter--let the last one just beat on the tank (but do not kill it). Move on to the next encounter in your way, keeping another mob from that encounter alive. Eventually you'll be down to 3 no-arrow adds and be in the named room. Finish those three adds off, then rush the named and you will get no more respawn. The above strat would work for a lesser geared group that is having trouble keeping the groups down long enough to kill the named before respawn. Most groups just haul in some good AE/encounter DPS and tear through them, but there's ways for any group setup to accomplish this zone.

Giral

12-02-2008, 03:34 AM

Ilmarinien wrote : As for this being 90% a level 80 expansion, if that's the case, then why do the dungeons scale down to level 50?that was the other 10 % i was talking about, we have a Hugemongos solo zone for endgame 75 +, we have 4 raids for Endgame raiding . and we have a bunch of instances for lvl 80 . a few scalable instances = 10 % (ok so maybe 8 % or 12 % lol ) there is No new Low/mid level lands, no new playable races, no new low level quests ( are there even low level quests for the Scalable instances ? ,dont know havent been there yet , to busy with the mountian of content in tso at endgame <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> p.s. i have seen a total of "zero" low level group's trying to from up in lvl chat looking to do the new scalable instances <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />IMO , i would have prefered IF they had made 4 of the new zones for 2-4 players at lvl 80, instead of the Scalaeble instance , i do beleive Small group players should have some content designed for them , 1 easy, 2 medium, and 1 hard, IF they had done this i think TSo would have had content for every play style , {borrowing a idea from another thread, these Small group zones could have given shard fragments , so you would need to do 1 of the zones 4 times to complete a whole shard, i think its a great idea, and hoepfully the devs see it and agree, eq2 is a game for all play styles , and i enjoy all aspects of that as i solo,group and raid, but yeahit is fun sometimes to just grab 2 or 3 friends and have a couple places to go .

Kordran

12-02-2008, 04:43 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Befallen: Cavern of the Afflicted is not Easy.</blockquote>Actually, the one time I've done it -- with a non-raid-geared PUG -- it was mostly easy. We wiped twice, entirely due to poor execution on our parts; both times we picked ourselves up, wiped off the dust, & drove on.I'm just not understanding why people think CotA is "hard", I guess.</blockquote>The constant fearing is what makes it incredibly annoying. You have your tank, or worse your healers, running off before it can be cleared. It's basically a non-stop chain pull to the named on the pedestal there, and you really need AE dps or you're going to be thrusting your head into a wall. It's an "easy" instance that requires fairly specific group composition, or well-geared toons, to avoid frustration.

Spontz

12-02-2008, 05:00 AM

Sedenten -- The problem with the "trick" to the Caverns is that there is absolutely no way to figure out what it is, save looking it up on EQ2i or a similar website or talking to someone who has been there and knows. This is my biggest complaint about quest and dungeon design in this game: there are usually too few clues, or none at all. Somehow, I'm supposed to know to kill a particular monster in a particular room when I can't see it, can't get to the room alive, have no idea where the waves of undead are coming from, and there are no scrawled messages on the wall reading, "Stop the Evil Whatsit," or bits of parchment suggesting that the Evil Whatsit really enjoys raising undead, or system messages saying, "With a grim chuckle, the Evil Whatsit raises another wave of undead." It's frustrating, it is.Giralus -- I believe I misunderstood how you meant the "90% for level 80" comment. I thought you were saying not to bother with it until everyone in my guild hit level 80. So, whoops. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sorry 'bout that.

troodon

12-02-2008, 05:39 AM

<cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Somehow, I'm supposed to know to kill a particular monster in a particular room when I can't see it, can't get to the room alive, have no idea where the waves of undead are coming from, and there are no scrawled messages on the wall reading, "Stop the Evil Whatsit," or bits of parchment suggesting that the Evil Whatsit really enjoys raising undead, or system messages saying, "With a grim chuckle, the Evil Whatsit raises another wave of undead." It's frustrating, it is.</blockquote>The dwarf in the room to the left tells you to kill them.

Estean1

12-02-2008, 07:49 AM

<cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with the "trick" to the Caverns is that there is absolutely no way to figure out what it is, save looking it up on EQ2i or a similar website or talking to someone who has been there and knows. This is my biggest complaint about quest and dungeon design in this game: there are usually too few clues, or none at all. Somehow, I'm supposed to know to kill a particular monster in a particular room when I can't see it, can't get to the room alive, have no idea where the waves of undead are coming from, and there are no scrawled messages on the wall reading, "Stop the Evil Whatsit," or bits of parchment suggesting that the Evil Whatsit really enjoys raising undead, or system messages saying, "With a grim chuckle, the Evil Whatsit raises another wave of undead." It's frustrating, it is.</blockquote>I have to disagree here. I have cleared about half the instances so far and have not looked at a single "write up" on any of them. The clues are there if you are attentive and aware of your surroundings. And yes there is an npc that gives you a hint for this zone but our group didn't need it. We zoned in. Wiped once to the respawning adds and immediately figured out that we needed to be more careful on the pulls and move fast. We figured that the whole zone probably wasn't like this and started looking for a way to shut off the waves of mobs. It was just common sense. (when something spawns too fast in eq2 there is almost always a way to turn it off, several of the zones have things similar to this). We got to the mob on our third try and all was good. Seriously though if its the zone scaling thats bugged then yeah they need to fix it (and it sounds like that fix is allready underway) But please don't change the difficulty of these zones. They are just right.

steelbadger

12-02-2008, 08:10 AM

<cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sedenten -- The problem with the "trick" to the Caverns is that there is absolutely no way to figure out what it is, save looking it up on EQ2i or a similar website or talking to someone who has been there and knows. This is my biggest complaint about quest and dungeon design in this game: there are usually too few clues, or none at all. Somehow, I'm supposed to know to kill a particular monster in a particular room when I can't see it, can't get to the room alive, have no idea where the waves of undead are coming from, and there are no scrawled messages on the wall reading, "Stop the Evil Whatsit," or bits of parchment suggesting that the Evil Whatsit really enjoys raising undead, or system messages saying, "With a grim chuckle, the Evil Whatsit raises another wave of undead." It's frustrating, it is.Giralus -- I believe I misunderstood how you meant the "90% for level 80" comment. I thought you were saying not to bother with it until everyone in my guild hit level 80. So, whoops. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Sorry 'bout that.</blockquote>I've been to Caverns of the Afflicted and found it really fun, we had absolutely no clue about any of the strats before we entered. We were a pretty well geared group wearing the good stuff from RoK instances with a bit of T1 fabled, obviously doing it at 80 though.First pull... got tons of mobs, died (mental note: social aggro = bad)Second pull... carefully pulled mobs ensuring gatekeeper was at other end of corridor before doing so, and the dps waited until the mobs were all on us. Killed stuff.Later pulls, moved as fast as we could after we saw the repop time, killing the whatsisface chappy that stops the repops stopped the repops. That got filed in "useful things to know".Event at bottom of well, obviously an event with the on screen script. Kill stuff till named shows up then kill named.Crawler Queen killed us a lot, we couldn't work out what to do when she went underground. Eventually it twigged that she only went after the people that moved. So we had everyone stand still when she went underground and she died easy.Found more insta-repop mobs, reasoned we had to fast-chain pull to a named somewhere beyond (like before) died a few times due to poor player positioning. In the end we went the wrong way and ended up killing Bonegrinder first (with a shortage of power due to chain pulls). Just tanked him on his little stage and killed him (veeery slowly as the dps ran out of power). Carried on and killed other repoppymob named. Oh, then we noticed that we had forgotten the fiery dude, we tried pulling a mob from the room, it repopped instantly, so we just pulled the named out. No worries.Group was good, but not perfect... Guardian, Inquisitor, Warden (78-79 I think), Ranger, Warlock and Dirge. We went in with plenty of aoe dps, which was nice. Still, intelligent pull tactics can overcome a lack of aoe dps.Of the instances I've done about 4 were unknowns before the group entered and we cleared them all, some were pure pick-ups, some were guild groups and some were a mixture of the two. It takes a bit of getting used to after hitting the same three (tactically simple) instances over and over again sure, but once you learn how to read the prompts and watch the mobs it all becomes far easier.Has to be said that the difficulty rating of instances is slightly misleading. The different instances tend to work different people to different levels. Cavern was really working the dps and tank, to avoid the nasty multi-mob situations. Whereas Necrotic Asylum was pretty simple from a tank's perspective (still fun though), the healers had a really interesting time of it though.I'm really liking the new setup. The easy zones are easy and the hard zones are hard. But all require a level of awareness that is quite new and refreshing. It's all doable though (except the stuff that isn't, like the non-scaling mobs).

Thunndar316

12-02-2008, 09:03 AM

The bad thing is groups now requirePlate Tank2 Healers1 MezzerThat leaves a lot of classes stuck LFG

zDocW

12-02-2008, 09:14 AM

<cite>Brigh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I played Eve Online, the instances there scaled automatically to the level and number of people in a group. I'd love to see something like this in EQII, or at least to see some content (other than doing solo quests as a group) for smaller or less super-uber-awesome-l33t groups.</blockquote>This must be a mistake.Eve Online has no levels and no instances.</blockquote>Actually EVE Online DOES have instances <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> When last did you play?

Windowlicker

12-02-2008, 09:19 AM

It's refreshing not being able to clear every current-tier instance in an hour or two every day.

zaneluke

12-02-2008, 09:49 AM

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>what i find sadly amusing is that on these very forums , for years, group players have been asking for group content to be engaging, challanging, and more like mini raids , where the group has to work as a team to complete zones, do quests in the zones , figure out scripts and get alternate rewards from doing the zones then just drop items(wonder where all the group players that have been asking for this are /ponder... oh yeah lol they are playing in TSO )also they have asked for fabled items from solo and group quests and zones ....you got that also ( i dont see raiders crying the blues over it either /wierd huh ? , those bad evil mean raider jerkheads /chuckle )the devs have heard your pleas, they have given the group game exactly what it has been lacking, and what it has been Begging for. you have gotten ALL of the above , and add to it you also have Progression, you have an entire year to Work on these Zones ( and IMO they will ALL be beaten by Casual groupers within the next 2 months or less )i have seen Massive amounts of returning players in TSO , and every one i know has been having a Blast in the new group zones, and the lvl channel is full of people looking for groups for these group zones , alot of raid guild have even halted raiding for a week or more to play around in them, they truely did a fantastic job of it , and i perosnaly suggest finding a couple more friend to go into these zones , it is worth it )this is a 90 % a level 80 expansion , it is ment for progression from the Lvl 80 ROK zones, you can still go there you know that right ? those zones still exist : ) and Many players still need thier Epic quest updates in those zones,can you walts right into any zone in TSo and clear it with any group ? NOcan any Guild Worldwide Walk into the hardest Raid zone in TSO right now and clear it ? NOgroupers need to gear up thru the lesser group zones, get shard gear, drops, quest items, to advance to the harder zonesRaidrs need to do the lesser raids to gear up to get to advance to the harder zonesyour level 80 with the ability to get 200 aa's , the game can't stay Carebear forever , it was bleeding players like a wet diaper at endgame , if you didn't take note of the barren wasteland onmost servers at peak hours of the day ,in total with the rok zones you have over 27 Group Dungeons in the game to play in, you Have Scalable instances in TSO you can bring in a lower toon that you can lower the mobs down a bit, and Walla you have a group instance in TSO that Less then a full group can clear .</blockquote>Spot on. Post of the year award.but you forgot to add..... tons of new stuff for crafters. IMHO i think the game has reahced a point where there is CRAPLOADS to do. If you find yoruself bored, might want to just call it quits. no game out there right now has this large of a variety of things to do at end level.

zaneluke

12-02-2008, 09:52 AM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The bad thing is groups now requirePlate Tank2 Healers1 MezzerThat leaves a lot of classes stuck LFG</blockquote>The majority of people who play this game are not new players and have more than one toon at 80. I know it is not a perfect situation. I have one dps one healer. Always something for me to do.I do see you looking for people in 70-79 chat all the time for groups.I have an 80 Mystic.80 warlock. The wife has an 80 illy. hit us up sometime if your short and need some help.

Thunndar316

12-02-2008, 10:01 AM

<cite>zaneluke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The bad thing is groups now requirePlate Tank2 Healers1 MezzerThat leaves a lot of classes stuck LFG</blockquote>The majority of people who play this game are not new players and have more than one toon at 80. I know it is not a perfect situation. I have one dps one healer. Always something for me to do.I do see you looking for people in 70-79 chat all the time for groups.I have an 80 Mystic.80 warlock. The wife has an 80 illy. hit us up sometime if your short and need some help.</blockquote>Sure thing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

feldon30

12-02-2008, 10:20 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Befallen: Cavern of the Afflicted is not Easy.</blockquote>Actually, the one time I've done it -- with a non-raid-geared PUG -- it was mostly easy. We wiped twice, entirely due to poor execution on our parts; both times we picked ourselves up, wiped off the dust, & drove on.I'm just not understanding why people think CotA is "hard", I guess.</blockquote>Until I read this thread, I did not know it was possible to turn off the waves of respawns. We will give it another shot. We have a rather low group sustained DPS which makes us vulnerable to situations like the ring event at the bottom of Najena's Hollow. Fortunately, void shards can be attained without killing dungeon bosses.We cleared the first room, then the hallway, then the room with the dwarf who gave the quest, then we looked out in the hallway and they'd already respawned. We called it quits not long after because we had a couple of outsiders who were used to a faster pace.

feldon30

12-02-2008, 10:23 AM

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nice jab at raiders but they are innocent in this</blockquote>Not THAT innocent. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Although the devs tested the TSO dungeons in legendary, most of the Beta testers were full fabled/mythical and for the last month of Beta, most groups were "looking for mythical copied X,Y,Z".

liveja

12-02-2008, 11:35 AM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The bad thing is groups now requirePlate Tank2 Healers1 MezzerThat leaves a lot of classes stuck LFG</blockquote>I've done 4 TSO instances now, & not once have we had a mezzer in the group. Of course, the tank was plate all four times, but there are four plate tanks & only two leather tanks, so it kinda stands to reason that most/all groups will have a plate fighter tanking.OTOH, I'm betting that I could Swashy-tank the first floor of OoA, with nothing but a Warden healing me & a Necro DPSing. So much for your "required" group makeups! In any event, since you're apparently a Pro Raider, soon to have your mythical, I'm not sure what the issue is. You have, on average, better gear than I do -- yet I'm the one saying everything in TSO is fine, & you're the one complaining.

Lethe5683

12-02-2008, 11:59 AM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The bad thing is groups now requirePlate Tank2 Healers1 MezzerThat leaves a lot of classes stuck LFG</blockquote>That's not true, I have tanked a lot of the new instances with no problem. And when there was a problem it has yet to be because I couldn't take the damage. (its almost always not enough dps, or not enough ae DPS).

Kendricke

12-02-2008, 12:21 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Befallen: Cavern of the Afflicted is not Easy.</blockquote>Actually, the one time I've done it -- with a non-raid-geared PUG -- it was mostly easy. We wiped twice, entirely due to poor execution on our parts; both times we picked ourselves up, wiped off the dust, & drove on.I'm just not understanding why people think CotA is "hard", I guess.</blockquote>The constant fearing is what makes it incredibly annoying. You have your tank, or worse your healers, running off before it can be cleared. It's basically a non-stop chain pull to the named on the pedestal there, and you really need AE dps or you're going to be thrusting your head into a wall. It's an "easy" instance that requires fairly specific group composition, or well-geared toons, to avoid frustration.</blockquote>Your healers should be remaining back at a distance. Your tank should be turning targets away from the group. Your healers should be curing. Your entire group should care about their resistances at least by some moderate standard.Your group does not need specific group compositions, though several classes will have an easier time there than in other dungeons. Here's an idea - don't choose the dungeon before you gather your group. Some dungeons are easier if you have AE classes. Others are easier if you have enchanters. Others are easier if you bring stronger healing, while some dungeons can be solo healed. Again: GATHER GROUP FIRST, THEN CHOOSE TARGET DUNGEON. It's not as if there aren't dozens of dungeons to choose from here, you know.

SystemOn

12-02-2008, 12:22 PM

<cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote> The devs apparently define a group as six level 80 hard-core raiders with all the best stuff in the game.</blockquote>Exactly and they provide no way for mainly solo players to catch up in someway. Anyone who hasn't raided since RoK was realeased is outta luck. Next expansion will be even worse.

Geothe

12-02-2008, 12:26 PM

liveja

12-02-2008, 12:27 PM

<cite>SystemOn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyone who hasn't raided since RoK was realeased is outta luck.</blockquote>ROFL!!!!!!!I haven't "raided since ROK" -- in fact, I've been on a total of 4 ROK raids, period, & have not one piece of gear from them -- & I mostly group with people who rarely ever raid at all, yet we're clearing TSO instances. Try again, please -- this dead horse you're pounding on has long ago been sent to the glue factory.

Kendricke

12-02-2008, 12:30 PM

<cite>SystemOn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote> The devs apparently define a group as six level 80 hard-core raiders with all the best stuff in the game.</blockquote>Exactly and they provide no way for mainly solo players to catch up in someway. Anyone who hasn't raided since RoK was realeased is outta luck. Next expansion will be even worse.</blockquote>I logged into my monk yesterday. He has no raid gear and has only run two instances in Rise of Kunark. He's decked out in a combination of mastercrafted and quested gear. I've soloed him for probably 70 of his 80 levels. I joined a pickup group where no one had any mythicals. The tank was a non-raiding Shadowknight from a casual guild. He brought two friends from his guild. The healers were both casually geared - only one of them had their fabled epic. In fact, I saw NO pieces of raid gear on any of the members of this group. The mission of the day was for Cavern of the Afflicted. We cleared it. Oh sure, we wiped 8 times...but we had a blast clearing the instance. I earned 4 shards for that run. I'll be hunting down one of my guild's crafters for my monk's first piece of shard armor later tonight. So yes, I'm going to STRONGLY refute any arguments which state that "no way for mainly solo players to catch up" or "Anyone who hasn't raided since RoK was released is outta luck". Both types of statements aren't just false - they're easy to prove false. I know, because I just did.

liveja

12-02-2008, 12:36 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh sure, we wiped 8 times...but we had a blast clearing the instance. I earned 4 shards for that run.</blockquote>Honestly, I wonder how many people declare an instance "impossible for XXXX type players" after they've wiped 2-3 times.I'm increasingly of the opinion -- as I've stated before -- that far too many people are going by what they're told in level chat, or what they read on various forums, & then get it into their heads that the game is "too hard." This is why I've repeatedly asked people to quit selling themselves short. I can't help thinking people just aren't even trying.Frankly, some of the claims -- like, for instance, that only "hard core raiders" can successfuly handle TSO instances -- are flat-out insulting to those of us non-raiders who are doing just that.

Banditman

12-02-2008, 12:42 PM

I am constantly amused these days. People saying how "hard" the new instances are. How it's "impossible" for someone without raid gear. Hilarious.The new instances are, in the beginning, a little harder. Mostly, they require you to pay attention. You can't just show up and win the loot lottery.There is now a difference between players who can and players who can't. It's not about what gear they are wearing, it's about the attitude they bring with them.I have only seen a handful of instances that will be above the ability of a casually geared group, if those players have some ability and the proper attitude. I'm not saying that these groups will be killing The Froglok King or Varsoon anytime soon, but there are a good 12 instances that they will be clearing now, and by this summer, I fully expect to see some of the more capable casual groups pulling Varsoon.

Samant

12-02-2008, 12:56 PM

Well for me, I have done all the solo content that this expansion has to offer. I will be back to crafting for another year like I recently did when I completed all the solo content last year in a week. You might say then do the group instants, that sould keep you busy. Not really, because I don't have more then 60 minutes weekdays to play. So that leave weekends and from what I do see alot of cliquish groups that say how easy the content is.I play a berserker, mystic and troubador. But my main focus is always my berserker even tho all my toons are maxed out up till TSO was released. My guild has dwindled to just mainly me playing and I am not going to leave it now after all that work I put into it. When people go into a instant and wipe 1 time, maybe twice I'll accept it. Wipe more then that and I'm furious as it should be for the class I play.I refuse to do PuGs anymore because the skill level in them is outragous. You have the upper better geared people telling other people with lower gear what to do and get [Removed for Content] when you wipe because you can't handle it like their guild group can. Or you get people that see a shiney and wipe the group just to get at it. If it wasn't for a group of raiders helping me get my fabled weapon on my main I would never completed it on my berserker which took 16 PUGs then 1 real group to complete.Skill level and gear definately will make or break a group.

Gerra

12-02-2008, 01:05 PM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The bad thing is groups now requirePlate Tank2 Healers1 MezzerThat leaves a lot of classes stuck LFG</blockquote>Also need to call fowl on this. I play a coercer and if there's a plate tank and 2 healers I don't mezz a [Removed for Content] thing. Maybe a stun here and there if a pull goes bad and healers need a moment or two to adjust. I've done a few of these with just one healer and then I'm mezzing often or if a brawler is tanking but other than that generally just burn the stuff down

Yimway

12-02-2008, 01:28 PM

<cite>Gerra wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The bad thing is groups now requirePlate Tank2 Healers1 MezzerThat leaves a lot of classes stuck LFG</blockquote>Also need to call fowl on this. I play a coercer and if there's a plate tank and 2 healers I don't mezz a [Removed for Content] thing. Maybe a stun here and there if a pull goes bad and healers need a moment or two to adjust. I've done a few of these with just one healer and then I'm mezzing often or if a brawler is tanking but other than that generally just burn the stuff down</blockquote>Agree, completely bogus statement.Group Requires:Any Tank (Plate, Leather, or Brigand in tank spec)Single Healer + dirge or 2 healersA utlitiy class is nice but not a solid requirementA DPS class is nice, but utility classes can dps enough that you can run 1 tank 1 healer and 4 utility.In truth what makes a viable group is quite a wide berth.My prefered group:SkInquiscoercerillydirgetroubHowever, did one the other day with brigand on tank spec for gits and shiggles and worked just fine...

liveja

12-02-2008, 01:39 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Any Tank (Plate, Leather, or Brigand in tank spec)</blockquote>You got something against Swashy tanks?

Junaru

12-02-2008, 02:02 PM

Why is it everyone assumes you need to be a "hard core raider" to finish these zones. Sure there are two or three out of the TWENTY instance that you need the gear to finish. My guild raids but we are a family guild and we have taken down 90% of the zones with different group make ups.Sorry but the fact is, if you can't beat a zone it's more then likely cause you couldn't figure out how to do it. I'm sure once everyone writes spoilers for the zones you wont complain. But until there is, sorry. Learn to watch what goes on around you. Raiders have an easier time in these zones not cause of gear (sure it helps) but cause they learned a long time ago to play as a team and watch what is going on. Nearly every named in TSO has a trick to them. If you can't figure it out, go play WoW.

12-02-2008, 02:12 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh sure, we wiped 8 times...but we had a blast clearing the instance. I earned 4 shards for that run.</blockquote>Honestly, I wonder how many people declare an instance "impossible for XXXX type players" after they've wiped 2-3 times.</blockquote>I THINK in a nut shell that is the whole issue with not only this thread but also a bunch of other thread whines. I know I have no problem dieing 20x+ times, as long as we are making progress or figuring things out. To be honest I was with a bunch of friends one instance I had to actualy pull out my repair bot because we died that many times. No one flinched one bit, we kept on going and figured out the encounters. Got our shards and at the end we were all saying the same thing, MAN that was a great experience learning some new scripts.<cite>Selura@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>When people go into a instant and wipe 1 time, maybe twice I'll accept it. Wipe more then that and I'm furious as it should be for the class I play.</blockquote> Need I say more..

JenarieII

12-02-2008, 02:12 PM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The bad thing is groups now requirePlate Tank2 Healers1 MezzerThat leaves a lot of classes stuck LFG</blockquote>I've done several of these with a monk tank with no problem. We've even done a couple of the easy ones with a swashbuckler tanking when there weren't enough guild tanks online at the time. We do have some raid gear but are still working on VP and at the time none of us had our mythicals so it doesn't take super uber gear to do this either. You can take a single healer if you are doing green zones. There is a lot more variety possible then you are thinking.

Yimway

12-02-2008, 02:20 PM

Banditman

12-02-2008, 02:25 PM

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh sure, we wiped 8 times...but we had a blast clearing the instance. I earned 4 shards for that run.</blockquote>Honestly, I wonder how many people declare an instance "impossible for XXXX type players" after they've wiped 2-3 times.</blockquote>I THINK in a nut shell that is the whole issue with not only this thread but also a bunch of other thread whines. I know I have no problem dieing 20x+ times, as long as we are making progress or figuring things out. To be honest I was with a bunch of friends one instance I had to actualy pull out my repair bot because we died that many times. No one flinched one bit, we kept on going and figured out the encounters. Got our shards and at the end we were all saying the same thing, MAN that was a great experience learning some new scripts.<cite>Selura@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>When people go into a instant and wipe 1 time, maybe twice I'll accept it. Wipe more then that and I'm furious as it should be for the class I play.</blockquote> Need I say more..</blockquote>This is "nail, meet hammer".My guild group took down Varsoon for the first time this weekend. We spent more than 16 HOURS in the zone, learning how to kill him. We were down to only a few hours left before our instance expired. I cringe at the platinum I spent repairing to go at him again. And again. And again. And again.I had nearly 30% debt by the time he died. Sure, now that I understand, it wouldn't take nearly so much. But the point is that I wouldn't hesitate to do the same thing in another zone if that's what it took to learn.My gear didn't make that zone possible. My attitude that "this (*$@er is going down" made it happen. That and a lot of caffeine. And Dutch apple pie. And Cool Whip.Now, will this zone be easier when we have 200AA? Absolutely. A lot easier, I'm sure. Will it be easier when we've geared up? Of course it will. Take less damage, do more damage = easier. But no one is going to beat the hardest zones in this expansion without having the attitude that "this (*$@er is going down".A friend of mine says you've got to play to win, instead of playing not to lose. And he's right. Focus on the solution, not the problem. Etc. All of those cliches hold true. Your attitude is the most important thing you have.

Kordran

12-02-2008, 03:08 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mission of the day was for Cavern of the Afflicted. We cleared it. Oh sure, we wiped 8 times...but we had a blast clearing the instance. I earned 4 shards for that run. I'll be hunting down one of my guild's crafters for my monk's first piece of shard armor later tonight. </blockquote>You've made my point that I've been talking about through these discussions. Guild groups, particularly guilds that raid, are used to multiple wipes like this and are okay with it. It's part of the "cost of doing business" when learning how new content works. Usually no one gets uptight about it and everyone has a good time.But you will find very few pickup groups with 6 random people that are going to be willing to stick it out through 8 wipes. They're just not going to do it. Most will disband long before that; after 3 or 4 wipes, people will start commenting about how their guild needs them for this or that.Personally, Cavern is an instance that I have no problem doing with my guild. But I would never run a PUG through there. It's just asking for a repair bill.

liveja

12-02-2008, 03:23 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally, Cavern is an instance that I have no problem doing with my guild. But I would never run a PUG through there. It's just asking for a repair bill.</blockquote>My first time in CotA was with a PUG, all of whom were people I'd never even heard of before, much less grouped with. Only one of us had even been in the instance before. We wiped exactly twice, & I myself died three times. Nobody in the group was "raid geared", we had no mezzer, & our AOE DPS was pretty much *me*.I told my groupies that if we'd managed to complete the entire instance the first time through without dying AT LEAST once, I would have been sorely disappointed. If I want ez-breez instances with no repair bills, I'll go back to Crypt of Agonizing Dullness <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" /> which was a snoozefest BEFORE it got nerfed.

Kordran

12-02-2008, 04:03 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>My first time in CotA was with a PUG, all of whom were people I'd never even heard of before, much less grouped with. Only one of us had even been in the instance before. We wiped exactly twice, & I myself died three times. Nobody in the group was "raid geared", we had no mezzer, & our AOE DPS was pretty much *me*.</blockquote>All I can say is that, based on your previous posts, you have unnaturally good luck with PUGs. Might want to think about buying some lottery tickets. That said, I can pretty much guarantee that your group (by virtue of the person who ran it before) knew what you needed to do in there. A friend of mine who's a healer in another guild went into Caverns with a guild group shortly after launch and they wiped about 12 times before they got down what needed to be done.Let me put it another way. You have all of these anecdotal posts about how all of these instances with PUGs have been a cakewalk for you. But based on the feedback here, and on other forums, your experience with TSO has been the exception, not the rule.

12-02-2008, 04:12 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>My first time in CotA was with a PUG, all of whom were people I'd never even heard of before, much less grouped with. Only one of us had even been in the instance before. We wiped exactly twice, & I myself died three times. Nobody in the group was "raid geared", we had no mezzer, & our AOE DPS was pretty much *me*.</blockquote>All I can say is that, based on your previous posts, you have unnaturally good luck with PUGs. Might want to think about buying some lottery tickets. That said, I can pretty much guarantee that your group (by virtue of the person who ran it before) knew what you needed to do in there. A friend of mine who's a healer in another guild went into Caverns with a guild group shortly after launch and they wiped about 12 times before they got down what needed to be done.Let me put it another way. You have all of these anecdotal posts about how all of these instances with PUGs have been a cakewalk for you. But based on the feedback here, and on other forums, your experience with TSO has been the exception, not the rule.</blockquote>I'm not sure he has "unnaturally good luck" I think the truth is he exagerates alot. One key point in the last post was he had someone with experience in that zone, frankly that makes a world of difference for an average pug. I would almost say that might be more valuable then gear persay.

Thunndar316

12-02-2008, 04:13 PM

It's only hard if you are grouped with total morons who can't do simple things like assist and not over aggro. I have practicly yelled at [Removed for Content] finger wagglers for constantly getting aggro from tanks. I tell them to slow down and they just keep blazing away.

Norrsken

12-02-2008, 04:40 PM

Suta

12-02-2008, 05:55 PM

<cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>The devs apparently define a group as six level 80 hard-core raiders with all the best stuff in the game.</blockquote>Correct. The game has now become tailored to hardcore players who only go out in groups of six. I'd recommend WoW or Lord of the Rings online over this now currently hardcore/raider only game.

12-02-2008, 05:58 PM

<cite>Sutava wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>The devs apparently define a group as six level 80 hard-core raiders with all the best stuff in the game. </blockquote>Correct. The game has now become tailored to hardcore players who only go out in groups of six. I'd recommend WoW or Lord of the Rings online over this now currently hardcore/raider only game. </blockquote>Troll or sarcasm? I really can't tell, can someone please enlighten me? I know it isn't the truth, heck just reading the last page or two would have said completley different. Personal experiance also tells me that this statement isn't true. Soo which is it.. Troll or Sarcasm...

liveja

12-02-2008, 10:29 PM

<cite>Sutava wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ilmarinen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>The devs apparently define a group as six level 80 hard-core raiders with all the best stuff in the game.</blockquote>Correct. The game has now become tailored to hardcore players who only go out in groups of six. I'd recommend WoW or Lord of the Rings online over this now currently hardcore/raider only game.</blockquote>Yes, because only "hardcore" players ever do full groups of six.As for WoW or LOTRO ... ROFLMFAO. Right. Try doing chapter ending quests in LOTRO, at level, in less than full groups. Try doing Scholomance, as a new "casual" player, in less than a full group. Try going to WoW & soloing your way to PvP l33tn3ss. Have you ever even played those games????

liveja

12-02-2008, 10:32 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me put it another way. You have all of these anecdotal posts about how all of these instances with PUGs have been a cakewalk for you.</blockquote>I didn't say CotA was a "cakewalk", I've said repeatedly that I don't believe it's as difficult as others are claiming it to be. There is a distinct difference in those two concepts.I've also had some really, really bad PUGs. Note that I never talk about them. What's the point of talking about a bad PUG? They're nowhere near as pleasant as good ones.

Kendricke

12-02-2008, 11:31 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mission of the day was for Cavern of the Afflicted. We cleared it. Oh sure, we wiped 8 times...but we had a blast clearing the instance. I earned 4 shards for that run. I'll be hunting down one of my guild's crafters for my monk's first piece of shard armor later tonight. </blockquote>You've made my point that I've been talking about through these discussions. Guild groups, particularly guilds that raid, are used to multiple wipes like this and are okay with it. It's part of the "cost of doing business" when learning how new content works. Usually no one gets uptight about it and everyone has a good time.But you will find very few pickup groups with 6 random people that are going to be willing to stick it out through 8 wipes. They're just not going to do it. Most will disband long before that; after 3 or 4 wipes, people will start commenting about how their guild needs them for this or that.Personally, Cavern is an instance that I have no problem doing with my guild. But I would never run a PUG through there. It's just asking for a repair bill.</blockquote>I believe you forgot to quote the sentence in that same post that started with "I joined a pickup group..."

Kordran

12-03-2008, 04:33 AM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>I believe you forgot to quote the sentence in that same post that started with "I joined a pickup group..."</blockquote>Yup, you're right, I missed where you had said you had joined a PUG, but I think you'd have to agree that my point still stands... most pickup groups are not going to stick together over the course of 8 wipes. I'd say what happened with you is fairly unusual (in a good way, that you all decided to stick it out and progress through regardless). My own anecdotal experience is that if the pickup wipes more than 2-3 times, people start thinking about punching the eject button. Once they're at 50%, for the most part they're calling out.

Salvati

12-03-2008, 05:06 AM

At last a zone with a challenge designed for GROUPS, Welldone SOE, at last you get the idea!Sorry all you soloer's, (anti-social, mmorpg's killing expletives)cheers!

Killerbee3000

12-03-2008, 06:10 AM

SageGaspar

12-03-2008, 06:48 AM

The only problem is that people aren't used to wiping except to just not having the sheer tank power or healing. In TSO your DPS and your strategy matters a ton more.Like caverns of the afflicted, you could bring a brawler and feign train, you can bring a solid tank and DPS and just burn em, you can do the strategy where you leave one mob in a group up, you could try CC if you think that'd help...Sometimes you might run into something you just can't do, like a raw DPS burn or a mob that just hits too hard, but there is a ton of gear available off the void shard merchant and dropping in the instances that wouldn't be out of place dropping in VP. Make a mental note of what you think you'd need and try it again later. Probably until you do it'd be easier with two healers too, but I wouldn't say CC is necessary at all. I'd take hard DPS over CC any day this expansion.

Thunndar316

12-03-2008, 10:22 AM

<cite>Gerra wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The bad thing is groups now requirePlate Tank2 Healers1 MezzerThat leaves a lot of classes stuck LFG</blockquote>Also need to call fowl on this. I play a coercer and if there's a plate tank and 2 healers I don't mezz a [Removed for Content] thing. Maybe a stun here and there if a pull goes bad and healers need a moment or two to adjust. I've done a few of these with just one healer and then I'm mezzing often or if a brawler is tanking but other than that generally just burn the stuff down</blockquote>Go do Veksar Sunken Theater without a mezzer. I guarantee you won't make it past the 2nd named. Of course some of the zones can be done with 1 healer. However, most of them are really tough and require the 4 components I have listed.

Kendricke

12-03-2008, 11:54 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>I believe you forgot to quote the sentence in that same post that started with "I joined a pickup group..."</blockquote>Yup, you're right, I missed where you had said you had joined a PUG, but I think you'd have to agree that my point still stands... most pickup groups are not going to stick together over the course of 8 wipes. I'd say what happened with you is fairly unusual (in a good way, that you all decided to stick it out and progress through regardless). My own anecdotal experience is that if the pickup wipes more than 2-3 times, people start thinking about punching the eject button. Once they're at 50%, for the most part they're calling out.</blockquote>I belong to a guild which has more than 60 active members. We're friendly with most of the guilds on our server, and in particular we're close to a few guilds which maintain over 400 combined active members. My friends list is nearly completely full and at any given time I log in to find over a dozen people I can group with at any time. I've spent years building a reputation as a competent, even skilled primary healer. There's no sugar-coated way to say this, but if you're having problems finding competent groups, that's not SOE's fault. It's yours. The choices you make - which guild to belong to, how to present yourself to others, who you befriend - that's all within your control. If I say I have little trouble finding groups that will handle 8 wipes, you can believe it. If I say I have little trouble finding groups that can put out 15,000 DPS on solo targets, you can believe it. If I say I rarely wait more than 10-20 minutes to find (or form) a group, you can believe it. These aren't some mythical or legendary tasks, either. If you adjusted your own choices ever so slightly here or there, you too could accomplish the same things.

Banditman

12-03-2008, 11:54 AM

Completed Veksar ST with one healer, no mez. Next.

Kordran

12-03-2008, 12:36 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>I belong to a guild which has more than 60 active members. We're friendly with most of the guilds on our server, and in particular we're close to a few guilds which maintain over 400 combined active members. My friends list is nearly completely full and at any given time I log in to find over a dozen people I can group with at any time. I've spent years building a reputation as a competent, even skilled primary healer. </blockquote>I think we're at odds over what we call a "pickup group" here. I'm a member of an active raiding guild, and while my friends list isn't "nearly completely full", I have quite a few folks that are outside of guild that I've grouped a good number of times with (generally the only people who are on my friends list are people I've grouped with more than 3-4 times and I think they're good at what they do). To me, that's not a pickup group, any more than grouping with guildmates or members of a guild alliance. To me, a "pickup" group is one where it's people I've either never met, or have played with very rarely and really don't have much, if any, experience grouping with them. I don't mean to get into a semantics argument with you, just wanted you to understand where I was coming from.Would I stay in a group of friends (in guild or out) that wiped repeatedly? Sure. Would I stay in a group of players that I've either never grouped with before, or only grouped with 1 or 2 times in the past? No. It's not because of debt or even repair costs, it's because at some point it becomes clear that grouping with those people (who I don't really know well) is wasting my time in the game. And to me, that's more valuable than anything else.

Zarador

12-03-2008, 02:27 PM

Much of this argument could be resolved with "true scaling" quite frankly. Most of us can accept the rewards that are handed out for the solo quest lines in the game and the trivial in nature group quest lines.Simply scale the dungeons to be able to be done in "easy" mode by almost any group and scale the rewards for that choice to be similar (heck, even identical if need be) to some of the solo quest lines for that level of zone.Some of us "lazy" and "unmotivated" people out there just wish to see the content without the fabled rewards. Maybe we would like to go in that dungeon with the usual rag-tag individuals that we call "friends" and be able to survive our ineptness simply because the rewards and the mobs have been scaled down.What needs to be redifined here is not the meaning of group, but rather the meaning of scaling. If we can somehow agree that the goal is to have more people having more fun in the game, what better way could there be than opening up a ton of content to "easy, yet small reward" playing?Greed is being over-estimated here and adventure value underestimated. I read posts about people spending weeks to discover some obscure book or page. Other posts talk about doing every quest they can and visiting every spot in the game that they can reach. We got people that try and find every place in the game where it was never "designed" to go just to take a screen shot of them being there. Is it really that hard to fathom that some players would simply love to experience these zones at their level of capability?In conclusion, give us "misfits" that some commented they would toss from a group a shot of doing the content without the awesome rewards other than being there. Let me see the zones with my friends, is that too much to ask? You keep your Fabled, I'll glady die with them and laugh about it later.

liveja

12-03-2008, 02:34 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simply scale the dungeons to be able to be done in "easy" mode</blockquote>I have no inherent objection to scaling for number of players, as well as scaling for their level.I just don't think it's anywhere near as "simple" to do as you seem to think. In fact, I suspect that if the developers thought they had the resource zots to do it properly, they most likely would have, & for precisely the reasons you state.It might be more possible in the future. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it, though.

Yimway

12-03-2008, 02:37 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>In conclusion, give us "misfits" that some commented they would toss from a group a shot of doing the content without the awesome rewards other than being there. Let me see the zones with my friends, is that too much to ask? You keep your Fabled, I'll glady die with them and laugh about it later.</blockquote>The expansion is to last a year. Seeing every zone in the first month doesn't do you or SoE any favors. After you get your 200aa, and you still can't see 90% of the dungeons to completion, then maybe things need to be adjusted.Until then, keep progressing to harder ones as easy ones become trivial. That's basically the nature of an MMO.Take a tiny bit of effort to better yourself along the way, and the game becomes a little fulfilling as well as entertaining.

Kordran

12-03-2008, 02:38 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simply scale the dungeons to be able to be done in "easy" mode by almost any group and scale the rewards for that choice to be similar (heck, even identical if need be) to some of the solo quest lines for that level of zone.</blockquote>I had a similar idea, make two versions of the 80 instances available. A "normal" difficulty that would be on par with the instances in RoK, and an "advanced" difficulty that would be as they are now (heck, even ramp up some of the easier zones like Deep Forge and Scion of Ice). Either increase the void shard rewards for the advanced versions, or perhaps do something like not have a key drop for the extra shard in the normal version. In the standard version, give the named a chance to drop wood, not always ornate/exquisites. That would be fairly balanced, I think.The people who like the challenge will choose the advanced instances. The causual pickup groupers, or people who just want to do some mindless tank-and-spank to wind down, they can pick the normal version knowing that they'll just get one shard from the run, and the drops won't be as good. Problem solved.

Keyh

12-03-2008, 02:44 PM

They DO have a scaling system, but instead of making it the same instance with some inflating stats/buffs and health on mobs, they're different instances.

Yimway

12-03-2008, 02:49 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>I had a similar idea, make two versions of the 80 instances available. A "normal" difficulty that would be on par with the instances in RoK, and an "advanced" difficulty that would be as they are now (heck, even ramp up some of the easier zones like Deep Forge and Scion of Ice). Either increase the void shard rewards for the advanced versions, or perhaps do something like not have a key drop for the extra shard in the normal version. In the standard version, give the named a chance to drop wood, not always ornate/exquisites. That would be fairly balanced, I think.</blockquote>I don't particularly like the idea. We have 5 tank-n-spank instances in RoK, I'd want no more than 5 of the new instances to remain tank-n-spank, and by some arguements they virtually already are. Tank-n-spank grouping is borring, having content that challenges the player beyond their ability to min/max taunts, heals, and dps is a great thing, cause really, we all figure out how to min/max these things long ago.*If* there was a scaled down version, it should offer no shards, 0 chance at exquisite, and only provide the basic xp / coin component of the quest. They could serve as learning tools for those having trouble with the full versions. But I'm really not sold on the progression path being broken, or any of these really being out of scale in difficulty. And I feel it is waste of dev time to put something like this in.I'd much rather they spend time on missing zones like Kurn's Tower.

Zarador

12-03-2008, 02:53 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>I had a similar idea, make two versions of the 80 instances available. A "normal" difficulty that would be on par with the instances in RoK, and an "advanced" difficulty that would be as they are now (heck, even ramp up some of the easier zones like Deep Forge and Scion of Ice). Either increase the void shard rewards for the advanced versions, or perhaps do something like not have a key drop for the extra shard in the normal version. In the standard version, give the named a chance to drop wood, not always ornate/exquisites. That would be fairly balanced, I think.</blockquote>I don't particularly like the idea. We have 5 tank-n-spank instances in RoK, I'd want no more than 5 of the new instances to remain tank-n-spank, and by some arguements they virtually already are. Tank-n-spank grouping is borring, having content that challenges the player beyond their ability to min/max taunts, heals, and dps is a great thing, cause really, we all figure out how to min/max these things long ago.*If* there was a scaled down version, it should offer no shards, 0 chance at exquisite, and only provide the basic xp / coin component of the quest. They could serve as learning tools for those having trouble with the full versions. But I'm really not sold on the progression path being broken, or any of these really being out of scale in difficulty. And I feel it is waste of dev time to put something like this in.I'd much rather they spend time on missing zones like Kurn's Tower.</blockquote>What invested time is it that people keep talking about. A mob, all mobs have a loot table. Just like in splitpaw, the mobs simply have to address an alternate loot table, really a simple database change at best. Also, as you pointed out, it would prepare people better for "the real deal" so to speak. Might even keep some players that are casual by nature playing the game.I certainly don't expect the same rewards or shards, just a chance to experience it with our less that pristine group compositions.

Kordran

12-03-2008, 03:00 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't particularly like the idea. We have 5 tank-n-spank instances in RoK, I'd want no more than 5 of the new instances to remain tank-n-spank, and by some arguements they virtually already are. Tank-n-spank grouping is borring, having content that challenges the player beyond their ability to min/max taunts, heals, and dps is a great thing, cause really, we all figure out how to min/max these things long ago.</blockquote>Tank and spank may be boring for you (and I would agree with you, by the way), but obviously there are people here who are not bored with it. It's the kind of thing that they enjoy doing, without worrying about group composition. They can just snag their friends and run through it and know they can complete it without repair bills.Throughout these threads, I see folks such as yourself saying "it's boring" or "it's too easy" ... but I look at things from the other perspective as well. You argue that the new content should be about progression, but they're asking why does it need to be about progression? Can't it just be new, and leave it at that? They're not asking for uber loot, they're asking for something new, but also no more difficult than what they're already used to. Believe it or not, there are players out there who find CoA, VoES and Maidens to be a challenge. For those folks, the TSO instances are simply out of reach. That really shouldn't be difficult to understand.Offering options to players is never a bad thing, in my opinion.

Yimway

12-03-2008, 03:02 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>I certainly don't expect the same rewards or shards, just a chance to experience it with our less that pristine group compositions.</blockquote>I really wish we could stop perpetuating this myth.As judged by what I see in alt groups and pugs with my alts, not much of this content requires anything remotely pristine, just players who have a mediocre understanding of their class and game mechanics.

liveja

12-03-2008, 03:09 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Believe it or not, there are players out there who find CoA, VoES and Maidens to be a challenge.</blockquote>Particularly in the case of CoA, such players need to take a closer look at their characters, their gear, & how they play them. The only mob in CoA that should even resemble a "challenge" is Emperor Vekn; the rest of the zone was far too easy to play BEFORE it was nerfed. I wouldn't refer to Maiden's as a "cakewalk", but I most definitely will say so of CoA, & Chelsith is nowhere near as difficult as it should be, considering it's supposed to be one of the more difficult zones in ROK.I don't think it's too much to tell people that they should evaluate what their characters are & what they can do, before they go screaming that content is "out of reach."

Yimway

12-03-2008, 03:09 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Throughout these threads, I see folks such as yourself saying "it's boring" or "it's too easy" ... but I look at things from the other perspective as well. You argue that the new content should be about progression, but they're asking why does it need to be about progression? Can't it just be new, and leave it at that? They're not asking for uber loot, they're asking for something new, but also no more difficult than what they're already used to. Believe it or not, there are players out there who find CoA, VoES and Maidens to be a challenge. For those folks, the TSO instances are simply out of reach. That really shouldn't be difficult to understand.</blockquote>It isn't difficult to understand. When we first started doing CoA with groups of level 76 players it was tough. MC, Voes, Etc were tough the first few times we ran them. Fact is there are plenty of tank-n--spank zones out there, and as players do them a dozen times or so, the next hardest dungeon that was once thought difficult is very achievable.Without progression, there is no variety, without challenge there is no interest in playing. And i agree what makes a challenge for one player is very different than another, but there are plenty of T8 instances that range far enough that there are easy ones for every player, and challenging ones for every player.As any player repeats what they find easy today, the next difficult one becomes less of a challenge by either earned gear, levels, achievement experience, experience with game mechanics, or just general interclass knowledge.I don't feel any but the VERY hardest may be unatainable by any player that invests the time into following the progression.

Kendricke

12-03-2008, 03:12 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote> To me, a "pickup" group is one where it's people I've either never met, or have played with very rarely and really don't have much, if any, experience grouping with them. I don't mean to get into a semantics argument with you, just wanted you to understand where I was coming from.</blockquote>The pickup group I referred to originally consisted of 5 people I'd never grouped with before who happened to know me by reputation - both my own and my guild's. Of the 5, I placed one on my friends list and one was noted whom I'll avoid grouping with again in the future (lots of AFKs, horrible parses, couldn't keep up when the group was moving and kept pulling extra groups on us). That's right - five strangers. Can we please just accept the idea that I know what a pickup group is and that I've joined them?

Kordran

12-03-2008, 03:29 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's right - five strangers. Can we please just accept the idea that I know what a pickup group is and that I've joined them? </blockquote>Sure, but then why the long discourse about how popular your guild is (over 60 active members, 400 people in your "alliance" of friendly guilds, etc.) and how large your friends list is? The implication that you seemed to be making was that your group wasn't a guild group, it was a group composed of people who were from your "almost full" friends list. Be that as it may, good for you if you don't mind wiping a bunch of times with people you've never played with before. Not something I would do, but differences are what makes the world go around. I guess I'm just not that tolerant.

Zarador

12-03-2008, 03:30 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>I certainly don't expect the same rewards or shards, just a chance to experience it with our less that pristine group compositions.</blockquote>I really wish we could stop perpetuating this myth.As judged by what I see in alt groups and pugs with my alts, not much of this content requires anything remotely pristine, just players who have a mediocre understanding of their class and game mechanics.</blockquote>So tell me my odds? Our son logs in and plays now and then on his SK who is level 57. My friend who is rather challenged at playing their 78 Necro, yet loves the game even if they do die a lot wants to join us and I can play my 80 Wizard with 140+ AA's and my girlfriend her 78 Warden. Were all in master crafted and 3 of us have the non-instanced upgrades in gear from RoK. Think we can handle the instances, honestly?I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this, just truthful.

liveja

12-03-2008, 03:43 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>Think we can handle the instances, honestly?</blockquote>All you can do is try.You know, I say the instances are of an appropriate difficulty, but obviously, others disagree -- just as I disagree with the notion that they're "too hard." But in the end, the final arbiter is SOE, & IMO the final criteria SOE should use should be "Are these instances providing the level of interactivity we want & intended?"If SOE thinks the answer is "no", they'll do some tweaking. But if they think that overall the effect is what they wanted & intended ... well, that's a different story.As an aside, I sure hope they compile & release the results of the in-game survey "soon", as I (& probably many others) am very interested in those results.

Kordran

12-03-2008, 03:43 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't feel any but the VERY hardest may be unatainable by any player that invests the time into following the progression.</blockquote>And you seem to be missing the point. There are casual players out there who don't care about progression. They just care about having fun with their friends and doing something new, rather than the same old RoK instances they've been doing for the past year. That's it. They're not looking for a challenge. They're not looking to progress. They're looking for what is the equivalent of an old-fashion dungeon crawl with their buddies. For them, it's more about the social experience, not about the loot (which is just the icing on the cake). They want to have fun with their friends, and complete new content. That's it. Figuring out strats, pouring over parse numbers and scrutinizing their gear and AA builds is not something that's enjoyable for them.Or to put it more bluntly: they want it to be easy, but they also want it to be new and interesting. And my point through all of this is that although that's not something I would personally prefer, I also don't think that it's an "invalid" playstyle. People do play these games for reasons other than what you and I play them for, and those people are raising what I consider to be valid observations (or complaints) about this expansion.For serious, dedicated players who are interested in progressing through the content, TSO is a breath of fresh air. For others though, it's obviously a significant source of frustration. What some of you have basically been telling them, if it were to be all summed up, is "quit complaining and learn to play". Not exactly constructive. It would be like if the next expansion, the only way that you could progress is if you strictly roleplayed within the lore, and any deviation out of character would penalize you... and when you complained about it, the hardcore roleplayers would tell you to just shut up, suck it up and learn to roleplay properly or find a different game to play. How receptive would you be to that advice?

liveja

12-03-2008, 03:50 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>They just care about having fun with their friends and doing something new, rather than the same old RoK instances they've been doing for the past year.</blockquote>Perhaps the answer is to release some new instances/dungeons in ROK, that are on the same level of difficulty as are CoA & Vaults. Kurn's Tower, Kaesora, & Dalnir's are all still MIA, & while some might claim that Nu'Roga is actually the return of both Mines of Nurga & Temple of Droga, I'd still prefer to see a separate wing for Droga added as well.I think this would be a superior method of giving people new dungeon experiences, as it wouldn't require any changes to be made to the TSO instances. Besides, it might well keep interest in ROK invigorated, if we had at least 3 new dungeons added in.I have a feeling, though, that a significant number of people would still insist that as "soloers" they're still forcibly locked out.

Kordran

12-03-2008, 04:03 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps the answer is to release some new instances/dungeons in ROK, that are on the same level of difficulty as are CoA & Vaults. Kurn's Tower, Kaesora, & Dalnir's are all still MIA, & while some might claim that Nu'Roga is actually the return of both Mines of Nurga & Temple of Droga, I'd still prefer to see a separate wing for Droga added as well.</blockquote>I think this would be a good compromise as well. I think it's clear that SOE should do something for these folks and your suggestion may have benefits beyond simply making alternate versions of the TSO instances.Edit: And yes, soloers would probably still have issues with additional group content, but I'm agreement with you that there's already plenty of solo content available. The people who seem to be having real issues with TSO are the casual groupers who play a few hours a week and don't want to use a spreadsheet to figure out their AAs, gear and adornments. And their $15 a month spends like everyone elses. SOE should give them something to do that doesn't frustrate the heck out of them.

Yimway

12-03-2008, 04:03 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't feel any but the VERY hardest may be unatainable by any player that invests the time into following the progression.</blockquote>And you seem to be missing the point. There are casual players out there who don't care about progression.</blockquote>I don't agree really. It's about progression, or we wouldn't have levels, we wouldn't have aa, we wouldn't have gear, etc, etc.What your contending is they don't want challenge in any form. In which case, I'd urge them to go give LOTRO a go at it. Plenty of mind numbing content there to play along with and never really see a challenge.I find the progressive difficulty of the challenges in TSO not to be really that hard and continue to advocate it isn't beyond 95% of the player base to complete. If figuring out a strategy is too tough for these folks, there are already very simple to follow walk thru's posted around, or worst case do it once with someone that already figured it out. Once you complete it once, it really isn't too hard to repeat.

Kordran

12-03-2008, 04:14 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't agree really. It's about progression, or we wouldn't have levels, we wouldn't have aa, we wouldn't have gear, etc, etc.</blockquote>Perhaps I should have been more precise. They don't care as much about intra-tier progression. Levels are a "tangible" thing. In that context, the only visible progression is in AA abilities, and that's a longer-term thing. Running 8 instances to get a piece of gear so that your parry improves by 1% and your critical mitigation goes up by 0.2% is something that is ... less tangible, I guess. It's something that raiders are used to, since everything plays out in the margins. It's not something that casual groupers seem to be really into doing. As I said, it's more about the social experience with their friends. Telling them that they should go play LOTRO instead isn't terribly constructive, IMO.

evilbp

12-03-2008, 04:17 PM

As one of the players that just likes to have fun and go on new dungeon experiences I would really like if the new instances scaled to your group (like City of Heroes). I can completly understand that I shouldnt have the same rewards as people who put much more time into the game (we only get to play about 2 hours a night). I would just love to have some new duo or small group content. Im sick of running the solo quest in Kunark and MoY. We would always do the solo quest in a group. Yes it was boring but we really enjoy eachothers company. Like I had said earlier it is hard for us to get people to group since we are in a guild that mostly raids (alliance as well). Pugs make me sick just thinking about them. I have horrible luck with pugs. Anything from somone that speaks and/or understands very little english to the wizard or warden that insist on tanking. I by no means am being elitist. I just think all these people who say "just get a group" have large guilds and alliances that offer them support so they always have friends and good players to draw from. They have forgotten the joy that is the pug.Lastly my little group of friends are not interested in progression. We would love to get some aa/xp in new areas were we dont have to solo. Solo quest with a group are extremely boring (I think I have said that already). We would like to have an increased difficulty (which dungeons usually provide). Really if they just offered the instances with different group options it would really fix the problem. My little group just wants to have fun too <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />. Loot would be great but new areas and things to do would be better.Please SOE add more small group content!!!

Kendricke

12-03-2008, 04:35 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>They can just snag their friends and run through it and know they can complete it without repair bills.</blockquote>I daresay this expansion wasn't designed for such players. I realize that's a politically incorrect statement, but I feel it's factual enough. Frankly, I think we've come to this place where some players feel they deserve content designed around their own particular, specific, special needs. Instead of adapting to the environment, these players feel that their monthly subscription entitles them to the same rewards everyone else is pulling in. For more on this concept, please see <a href="http://clockworkgamer.com/2007/06/15/but-i-want-it-too/" target="_blank">"But I Want It, Too!" at Clockwork Gamer.</a>

Giland

12-03-2008, 04:46 PM

I wouldn't complain if they "scaled" the dungeons a bit to make it a bit easier for unconventionall groups. A difficulty setting that works for example. Just lower the mobs and start removing the named. So if there were 3 levels, easy, medium and hard (hard being the current level) Easy has the mobs being 9 levels lower and only 1 named in the zone that has a modified loot table where a fabled item (if on the list at all) only had a 10% chance of the hards chance to drop. Medium is mobs are 5 levels lower, has half the named, and has a 50% chance of the hards chance to drop.The "shard chest" would no longer be a guarantee, but have a decent percentage chance to appear. For instance, easy is 50%, medium is 75% chance.

Kendricke

12-03-2008, 04:48 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's right - five strangers. Can we please just accept the idea that I know what a pickup group is and that I've joined them? </blockquote>Sure, but then why the long discourse about how popular your guild is (over 60 active members, 400 people in your "alliance" of friendly guilds, etc.) and how large your friends list is? The implication that you seemed to be making was that your group wasn't a guild group, it was a group composed of people who were from your "almost full" friends list. Be that as it may, good for you if you don't mind wiping a bunch of times with people you've never played with before. Not something I would do, but differences are what makes the world go around. I guess I'm just not that tolerant.</blockquote>The implication is that your reputation and/or the reputation of your guild helps determine the general quality of groups you'll be invited to. Yes, having a larger, more active guild helps to form groups...but it's not the only source of grouping I have access to.

Kordran

12-03-2008, 05:03 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>Frankly, I think we've come to this place where some players feel they deserve content designed around their own particular, specific, special needs. Instead of adapting to the environment, these players feel that their monthly subscription entitles them to the same rewards everyone else is pulling in. </blockquote>While this is true in some cases, I've seen posts from folks here who say that they're perfectly willing to accept lesser rewards (fewer shards, lower chances of a good drop, etc.), in exchange for easier content that's new. They're less interested in phat lewtz, more interested in doing something new that's on the same general difficulty scale as CoA and VoES.You're right that this is not the expansion for them. But is that a good thing? Does SOE really want to send the message that if you're a very casual player who just likes grouping with their friends (and prefers the "easy mode" playstyle), sorry but we're no longer interested in having you as our customer? That they should quit and find another game to play, because EQ2 is taking the direction that only players committed to character development and progression are wanted. Those who just enjoy goofing around with their buddies online and getting something "nifty" every once in a while, well, there's no place here for you any longer?There are people who play EQ2 as a game, a diversion with their online friends. There are others for whom it is their hobby. SOE seems to be signaling a shift in focus to the latter. Whether this is good or bad seems to largely depend on which side of the fence you find yourself standing on.

Gaige

12-03-2008, 05:05 PM

Can't people who play that casually still do CoA and VoES?

Yimway

12-03-2008, 05:09 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>So tell me my odds? Our son logs in and plays now and then on his SK who is level 57. My friend who is rather challenged at playing their 78 Necro, yet loves the game even if they do die a lot wants to join us and I can play my 80 Wizard with 140+ AA's and my girlfriend her 78 Warden. Were all in master crafted and 3 of us have the non-instanced upgrades in gear from RoK. Think we can handle the instances, honestly?I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this, just truthful.</blockquote>Mentored to level 57, after todays patch, relatively high chance at success. You may die a few times figure a few things out, but you'll likely have a good go at it. Worst case, you'll need to advertise on server chat and fill the group with 55-64 players.However, it isn't the best use of the groups time. It would be far more useful to run some quest lines as a group to get level, aa, character experience, and then try some instances after you've exausted the solo content.

Yimway

12-03-2008, 05:15 PM

<cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can't people who play that casually still do CoA and VoES?</blockquote>Yeap, as well as any RoK instance, as well as any RoK dungeon, as well as about 5 of the TSO instances.All doable by the most casual players. My contention has been, once they've done all that a dozen times, they'll have the stats to do the next level of challenge...

Kordran

12-03-2008, 05:19 PM

<cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can't people who play that casually still do CoA and VoES?</blockquote>They've been doing that for a year. So, basically you're saying that if you're a very casual grouper, you don't deserve any new content? Just solo in the Moors or run the same old RoK instances for another year?That's not a good way to keep those folks subscribing, in my opinion.

Gaige

12-03-2008, 05:23 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>They've been doing that for a year. So, basically you're saying that if you're a very casual grouper, you don't deserve any new content? Just solo in the Moors or run the same old RoK instances for another year?That's not a good way to keep those folks subscribing, in my opinion.</blockquote>You just said they're ultra casual, right? Not a lot of time to play? So how many times could they have honestly done RoK zones in that year? I'd guess not as much as the majority of players did.If you only invest a miniscule amount of time into one of your hobbies, then I'm sorry then you aren't allowed to have the loudest voice about what you want. SOE has players who invest more time into this game to cater to. You can't barely play but demand NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW especially if that NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW is different than the NEW they're already doing to satisfy most of their playerbase.If they can't do the easy TSO zones, too bad. The game can't cater to everyone, that's silly to even think. They have to cater to the majority, which they do. My playstyle is generally neglected, and people who "very casually group" are probably going to be neglected as well. Welcome to the real world.

Yimway

12-03-2008, 05:24 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't agree really. It's about progression, or we wouldn't have levels, we wouldn't have aa, we wouldn't have gear, etc, etc.</blockquote>Perhaps I should have been more precise. They don't care as much about intra-tier progression. Levels are a "tangible" thing. In that context, the only visible progression is in AA abilities, and that's a longer-term thing. Running 8 instances to get a piece of gear so that your parry improves by 1% and your critical mitigation goes up by 0.2% is something that is ... less tangible, I guess. It's something that raiders are used to, since everything plays out in the margins. It's not something that casual groupers seem to be really into doing. As I said, it's more about the social experience with their friends. Telling them that they should go play LOTRO instead isn't terribly constructive, IMO.</blockquote>Completing the next hardest mission is tangible. However, the rewards for mastering the previous content and the easy zones here for the ultro casual is a whole heck of a lot more than 1% crit mitigation. For the very worst people i inspect its 30% spell crit, or 30% avoidance, or 2000 hp. People grossly under geared simply haven't invested enough time in the previous expansion to get all that far in the new one. However, there are 4-5 missions that can be repeated with high frequency in that within a couple weeks a full set of 1st tier shard gear can be had and that will open up the easier of the next level difficulty missions.FWIW, I'm a casual player, I play about 15 hrs / wk and lead a casual guild. The number 1 reason I play this game is the social aspect of it.However, when we played things like LOTRO, the social aspect by itself was not enough to keep me from falling asleep playing a healer. I suggest the tittle in that I think EQ2 is extremely casual friendly in that someone that plays 10 hours / wk can be within 10% effectiveness of someone that plays 40hrs/wk, but LOTRO is even more casual friendly than EQ2.There are plenty of other titles and multiplayer games out there that offer social interaction with pure grind with no challenge, I'd prefer we didn't make EQ2 one of those.

RafaelSmith

12-03-2008, 05:39 PM

I consider myself casual...my guild considers itself casual (we just recently took out Pawbuster =P).We have all really enjoyed the TSO instances. They are not cake walks by any stretch..they are fun...challenging and actually requires that groups function much like a mini-raid. Which is a far cry from RoK instances, etc.When TSO came out I was geared with mostly pre-TSO T8 instance drops and a few T1 raid drops.Our guild rarely has enough people on during the week to form the "perfect" TSO instance group. We make do with what many would consider non-optimal groups. Hard yes...impossible no...fun OH YEAH.As for Befallen:CoTA....I personally hate it..mainly because its about as anti-Guardian as you can get. No big deal..we get our SK and go have fun watching the parser numbers =PIMO they did a great job with TSO instance design. Several instances with variety of challenges...some specific to certain class makeup. But enough to give everyone more than enough choices. Refreshing to have enounters that require more than dogpiling/tank/spank.

Kendricke

12-03-2008, 05:45 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>They're less interested in phat lewtz, more interested in doing something new that's on the same general difficulty scale as CoA and VoES.</blockquote>In addition to Crypt of Agony and Vaults of Eternal Sleep, there is also Sebillis, Chardok, and Karnor's Castle (up to Xalgoz). There are FIVE dungeons that maintain relatively easy content for level 75-80 players right there. Combined, it represents a total of well over 50 different named targets they can hit for potential upgrades. Beyond that would be Chelsith, Maiden's Chamber, Veksar: Invasion, and Runnyeye: The Gathering. This represents another couple of dozen named targets they can hit. Beyond THAT would be The Shadow Odyssey.

Kordran

12-03-2008, 05:46 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are plenty of other titles and multiplayer games out there that offer social interaction with pure grind with no challenge, I'd prefer we didn't make EQ2 one of those. </blockquote>It doesn't have to be either-or, does it? Flaye had a great idea about adding some new instances and a new contested dungeon to RoK to give those casual groupers something to new and fun to do. Add some new loot, basically itemized the same way that CoA/VoES/MC is and with the same general level of difficulty. Heck, if SOE can completely revamp Everfrost (and a compliment of ridiculously overpowered items for the level and difficulty), they could do this.I'm not saying anything should be taken away. I'm just saying that some easier stuff should be added for those folks. As I see it, including more styles of play is better than selectively excluding them in the name of progression. And rightly or wrongly, there are a lot of people who feel that they are "locked out" of experiencing much of what TSO has to offer. And them walking away with their 15 bucks is not good for the long-term health of the game that we enjoy.

Kordran

12-03-2008, 05:51 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>In addition to Crypt of Agony and Vaults of Eternal Sleep, there is also Sebillis, Chardok, and Karnor's Castle (up to Xalgoz). There are FIVE dungeons that maintain relatively easy content for level 75-80 players right there. Combined, it represents a total of well over 50 different named targets they can hit for potential upgrades. Beyond that would be Chelsith, Maiden's Chamber, Veksar: Invasion, and Runnyeye: The Gathering. This represents another couple of dozen named targets they can hit.</blockquote>I think you missed the part where I talked about "something new". Content that is over a year old doesn't qualify as new, at least not in my book (with the exception of Veksar and RE2, which a lot of those same people also couldn't complete or get in groups for). As I said, from what I've read, these folks aren't looking for progression. They're not necessarily looking for "upgrades" so they can do the harder stuff. They're looking for something to have fun with their friends in, something they haven't done before and something they have a good chance at success with. That honestly doesn't seem unreasonable to me.If you break down the playerbase, I think you'd come up with something like this:<ol><li>Soloer. Someone who primarily plays solo, groups for quest updates and the very occasional instance run for achievement, etc.</li><li>Casual. Someone who is likely in a family guild, primarily groups with friends. Plays solo some of the time, but enjoys dungeon and instance runs with his or her family/guildmates/friends.</li><li>Grouper. Someone who doesn't enjoy solo play, prefers groups and is serious about their character progression. They may already do some casual raiding and pickup raids.</li><li>Raider. Someone who primarily raids and groups on off-raid nights. Soloing and instances are generally a means to an end, they prefer the challenge of raids, and tend to group within their guild.</li></ol>There are people who would fall in between there, but I think that's a general way to look at things. TSO offers something for players in groups 1, 3 and 4. There's very little for players who find themselves primarily in group 2.

LardLord

12-03-2008, 05:56 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO they did a great job with TSO instance design. </blockquote>I agree. Some of them have significant flaws, but it's incredible how much better they are than what was released with RoK. TSO is a fantastic expansion, especially when compared to how pathetically terrible and unfun RoK was at this time last year.There will be some progression for casual players. If you want to clear an instance you're unable to clear right now, I'd suggest working on improving yourself as a player, the gear you use (and AAs you have, ect), and your approach to the specific fights you're struggling with. That type of progression is what makes games like this fun <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Kendricke

12-03-2008, 05:56 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are plenty of other titles and multiplayer games out there that offer social interaction with pure grind with no challenge, I'd prefer we didn't make EQ2 one of those. </blockquote>It doesn't have to be either-or, does it? Flaye had a great idea about adding some new instances and a new contested dungeon to RoK to give those casual groupers something to new and fun to do. Add some new loot, basically itemized the same way that CoA/VoES/MC is and with the same general level of difficulty. Heck, if SOE can completely revamp Everfrost (and a compliment of ridiculously overpowered items for the level and difficulty), they could do this.I'm not saying anything should be taken away. I'm just saying that some easier stuff should be added for those folks. As I see it, including more styles of play is better than selectively excluding them in the name of progression. And rightly or wrongly, there are a lot of people who feel that they are "locked out" of experiencing much of what TSO has to offer. And them walking away with their 15 bucks is not good for the long-term health of the game that we enjoy.</blockquote>Your argument is predicated upon the premise that there's this significant pool of players cancelling right now because The Shadow Odyssey isn't providing the right content. I reject this premise outright. I've only seen a handful of players on these forums claiming they've cancelled (and they KEEP claiming they've cancelled, mind you) because SOE isn't providing them the right content.Well, good for them. No, really. Good for them. If they don't feel that SOE is providing them the right content, they need to cancel. In the meantime, I'd like to introduce a few new names to you: Lorelily, Artteen, Etric, Basta, Oranorn, Raylorn, Xeavn, Falimar, and Matthew. These are ALL members of my guild who had, till recently, had inactive accounts with SOE. Within the past month or so, all of them have reinstated their long dormant accounts and begun logging in again, having fun with this new expansion. I've been contacted by another dozen or so former guildmates and friends over the past few weeks asking for my impressions on this new expansion. Now, you could say I'm a "hub" player. I run a large guild. I'm friends with other guild leaders. I tend to have a large friends list across servers. I'm relatively well known on these forums. So, when I tell you that my networks are more active in the past month than they have been in a year or more, I hope you understand what that means. For every person you know that's cancelling, I probably know a couple who are coming back to the game. That doesn't even BEGIN to touch upon brand new players.So again I say, good for them. Good for those players who feel it's time to see greener pastures. If they think there's a game out there that better meets their needs, I think it's right for them to move on. Honestly and truly. Good bye. Good luck. I wish them the best. ...Of course, none of this has anything to do with whether or not it's good game design to cater to every possible playstyle with every possible bit of content. Not every instance should scale. Not every piece of loot should have multiple paths of acquisition.

Thunndar316

12-03-2008, 06:20 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Completed Veksar ST with one healer, no mez. Next.</blockquote> LOL you are full of it.The second named spawns 3 adds that are more powerful than the named. They took down our 80 guard with a shaman and a warden unable to keep him alive.

RafaelSmith

12-03-2008, 06:21 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you break down the playerbase, I think you'd come up with something like this:<ol><li>Soloer. Someone who primarily plays solo, groups for quest updates and the very occasional instance run for achievement, etc.</li><li>Casual. Someone who is likely in a family guild, primarily groups with friends. Plays solo some of the time, but enjoys dungeon and instance runs with his or her family/guildmates/friends.</li><li>Grouper. Someone who doesn't enjoy solo play, prefers groups and is serious about their character progression. They may already do some casual raiding and pickup raids.</li><li>Raider. Someone who primarily raids and groups on off-raid nights. Soloing and instances are generally a means to an end, they prefer the challenge of raids, and tend to group within their guild.</li></ol>There are people who would fall in between there, but I think that's a general way to look at things. TSO offers something for players in groups 1, 3 and 4. There's very little for players who find themselves primarily in group 2.</blockquote>From what I have seen TSO offers something for each and every one of those groups. In fact...I think TSO has alot for group #2...especially if its family/guildmates/friends they have grouped with alot and have learned to work well together. Thats the key to ALOT of these TSO instances. For players that enjoy dungeon and instance runs..TSO is perfect.I have yet to encounter anything in TSO instance where lack of good gear could not be overcomb somehow via strat or teamwork.

Rijacki

12-03-2008, 06:34 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can't people who play that casually still do CoA and VoES?</blockquote>They've been doing that for a year. So, basically you're saying that if you're a very casual grouper, you don't deserve any new content? Just solo in the Moors or run the same old RoK instances for another year?That's not a good way to keep those folks subscribing, in my opinion.</blockquote>If they've really been doing the RoK content for a year, then what did they do with the loot drops they got from there? throw them out with the baby and bath water?If you've been doing RoK content (any of it) for a year, even casually, unless you declined on EVERY loot drop and deleted EVERY quest reward and coin reward in some intentional attempt to keep yourself at the gimpest possible capability, you WILL have the gear and abilities to run the easiest instances in TSO. You would have -several- legendary and even a few nice fabled pieces even if you only ever soloed in RoK for a year as long as you actually did the quest lines -and- didn't throw everything away out of spite, avirice, or whatever.

RafaelSmith

12-03-2008, 06:42 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can't people who play that casually still do CoA and VoES?</blockquote>They've been doing that for a year. So, basically you're saying that if you're a very casual grouper, you don't deserve any new content? Just solo in the Moors or run the same old RoK instances for another year?That's not a good way to keep those folks subscribing, in my opinion.</blockquote>If they've really been doing the RoK content for a year, then what did they do with the loot drops they got from there? throw them out with the baby and bath water?If you've been doing RoK content (any of it) for a year, even casually, unless you declined on EVERY loot drop and deleted EVERY quest reward and coin reward in some intentional attempt to keep yourself at the gimpest possible capability, you WILL have the gear and abilities to run the easiest instances in TSO. You would have -several- legendary and even a few nice fabled pieces even if you only ever soloed in RoK for a year as long as you actually did the quest lines -and- didn't throw everything away out of spite, avirice, or whatever.</blockquote>Thats the same question I was just asking myself.I recently came back to EQ2 in Aug 08 after quiting way back around CU#13. So ive only been doing RoK content for a few months prior to TSO. I was able to do several of the TSO instances just fine with the gear I had gotten in RoK.

Yimway

12-03-2008, 06:43 PM

Yimway

12-03-2008, 06:47 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for Befallen:CoTA....I personally hate it..mainly because its about as anti-Guardian as you can get. No big deal..we get our SK and go have fun watching the parser numbers =P</blockquote>Getting off topic, but I don't like to let these hang out there.Respec my friend. Put the 5 points into the hold the aggression enhancement that adds a taunt whenever your block as well as when you are hit.With this aa, the occasional reinforcement then aoe, then plant, I had zero issues holding aggro off a mythied illy+wizard with no troub in group.

Kordran

12-03-2008, 06:50 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you've been doing RoK content (any of it) for a year, even casually, unless you declined on EVERY loot drop and deleted EVERY quest reward and coin reward in some intentional attempt to keep yourself at the gimpest possible capability, you WILL have the gear and abilities to run the easiest instances in TSO. You would have -several- legendary and even a few nice fabled pieces even if you only ever soloed in RoK for a year as long as you actually did the quest lines -and- didn't throw everything away out of spite, avirice, or whatever.</blockquote>So the casual players where who are raising the issue, they're all... what? I don't know. I'm just trying to look at the situation from all sides, and I think more could be done for those folks.

Felshades

12-03-2008, 07:01 PM

heres the thing:unless i know most of the group, im not joining. im not taking the chance that the instance is going to take six hours to run, and even then not complete because we have some idiot that isnt following directions, or doesnt know what they're doing.i dont want to spend 2+ plat in repair bills to get nothing out of the instance. i want fast, 1 hour or less runs. i dont care where it is, if its a group instance it should not take more than an hour to run. no if, and, or buts.if i want a scripted challenge, i'll raid. in fact, i'd rather be raiding than running these group instances.. but you cant raid the amount of time im in game. i play more than any of you guys, i'm going to be 100% about that fact. it goes along with my unemployment, no school/kids, and desire to not do anything but.that said, unless its a raid i dont want a challenge. i want fun. challenging with a pug is NOT fun. that is all.ive already cancelled till next expansion. or waiting till they nerf these instances to crap and they can be run in an hour. i dont have the patience to teach other people how to play.

Yimway

12-03-2008, 07:12 PM

<cite>Meridia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>ive already cancelled till next expansion. or waiting till they nerf these instances to crap and they can be run in an hour. i dont have the patience to teach other people how to play.</blockquote>Few take more than an hour, filter your invite list to people in raid guilds, and you'll never have to deal with a bad pug.I don't choose to take as an 'elitest' approach, but know those that do and prefer it that way.

Felshades

12-03-2008, 07:27 PM

the people that made that list of four types of players.. i fall between three and four.i raid for challenges. i group for giggles.i dont really need or want anything out of group instances.. because i have already realised my chances of what i need dropping is non existant. i run them for fun. its not fun wiping over and over and over because the morons i attract when i attempt to pug cant follow directions.if i attempt to limit my invites to raid people that arent already only grouping with their guild, then its going to take longer to get the group than to run it. thats another problem.yes im an easymode elitest jerk. i'm also proud of it. i dont play games for a challenge, i play them for social aspects, and fun. i want a challenge, i'll do something ive never done before irl. or raid. raiding to me is an acceptable challenge because i dont choose guilds that raid 'till we're done'. i choose the ones that quit after x hours regardless of the mob being dead unless the majority wants to go on, and those that dont can leave.i want to choose how long the zone takes, and with pugs, i cant really do that. if we cant make it in an hour, its not worth my time to try.

Giral

12-03-2008, 08:07 PM

<cite>Meridia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>the people that made that list of four types of players.. i fall between three and four.i raid for challenges. i group for giggles.i dont really need or want anything out of group instances.. because i have already realised my chances of what i need dropping is non existant. i run them for fun. its not fun wiping over and over and over because the morons i attract when i attempt to pug cant follow directions.if i attempt to limit my invites to raid people that arent already only grouping with their guild, then its going to take longer to get the group than to run it. thats another problem.yes im an easymode elitest jerk. i'm also proud of it. i dont play games for a challenge, i play them for social aspects, and fun. i want a challenge, i'll do something ive never done before irl. or raid. raiding to me is an acceptable challenge because i dont choose guilds that raid 'till we're done'. i choose the ones that quit after x hours regardless of the mob being dead unless the majority wants to go on, and those that dont can leave.i want to choose how long the zone takes, and with pugs, i cant really do that. if we cant make it in an hour, its not worth my time to try.</blockquote>and there are aspects of the game that meet your criteria, and some that dont, its a game for all playstyles, so some of the instances in TSO are longer or harder then you'd like, big woopty diddley, there are group players that never raid, that are thoroughly enjoying the group game in Tso , and im sure there are some that are hating it,. you cant please everyone : )from my personal experiance , i havent had one preson in the guilds im in or any of my friends complain about the group zones, infact i have heard nothing but good comments so far, and thats with groups learning the zones, and wiping numerous times trying to figure out some of the encounters,,,,,in a month from now when the majority knows the encounters and has geared up more from TSO the majority of these zones will be cleared in less then an hour and alot of them in a half hour or less by your raiding/elitist types, we are already able to clear some of the zones in 1/2 without any of the TSo gear, and without the 200 AA's,what will these zones be like in 2 months when the majority has thier 200 Aa's , has full suits of TSo gear+Adornments,jewelry,items, ? they will by 90 % Tank and Spank , and all of them will be on farm status for most peoplewhat is hard today will be easy tommorow, we heard all these cries when ROK first came out " its to Hard, Mob's hit like Mack trucks, " and within a couple months casual players wre clearing and farming all the zones,same thing for RE2, same thing when Unrest came out, its to long, to hard, OMG OMG sky is falling, but left alone, given the time, people adepted, overcame and succeded, and so shall they in TSO .your level 80, you can get 200 aa's and some realy nice Shardgear/items, i highely doubt the devs are going to Nerf these zones anytime zoon seeing as the Vast majority is enjoying them(and im sure the devs are seeing what im seeing and ALOT of people are Re-subbing) , and has a YEAR befor they get a new expansion, sure we will get a new instance like re2 in a few months, maybe even 2 of them by next year , but thats about all for the group game , so these group zones need to keep Group players interested for a long long time, and making them easier a month after release would kill the progression they have implemented ,anyway to each thier own, sorry the group game isnt to your liking, but me and many others are loving every minute of it

Felshades

12-03-2008, 08:19 PM

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>your level 80, you can get 200 aa's and some realy nice Shardgear/items, i highely doubt the devs are going to Nerf these zones anytime zoon seeing as the Vast majority is enjoying them(and im sure the devs are seeing what im seeing and ALOT of people are Re-subbing) , and has a YEAR befor they get a new expansion, sure we will get a new instance like re2 in a few months, maybe even 2 of them by next year , but thats about all for the group game , so these group zones need to keep Group players interested for a long long time, and making them easier a month after release would kill the progression they have implemented ,</blockquote>no, i cant get shard armors, when 98% of the pugs i get are full of morons that dont know what a taunt is.

Zarador

12-03-2008, 08:25 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>They just care about having fun with their friends and doing something new, rather than the same old RoK instances they've been doing for the past year.</blockquote>Perhaps the answer is to release some new instances/dungeons in ROK, that are on the same level of difficulty as are CoA & Vaults. Kurn's Tower, Kaesora, & Dalnir's are all still MIA, & while some might claim that Nu'Roga is actually the return of both Mines of Nurga & Temple of Droga, I'd still prefer to see a separate wing for Droga added as well.I think this would be a superior method of giving people new dungeon experiences, as it wouldn't require any changes to be made to the TSO instances. Besides, it might well keep interest in ROK invigorated, if we had at least 3 new dungeons added in.I have a feeling, though, that a significant number of people would still insist that as "soloers" they're still forcibly locked out.</blockquote>Sounds great, could not agree more, they should have added some RoK instances for the groupers and some RoK Raid encounters for those hardcore raiders. Then they could have dedicated the expansion for the solo/casual crowd and everyone would have been happy.I have a feeling though that the hardcore groupers and raiders would have still complained that they were forced to solo in TSO!Oh wait, that's not what you meant, my bad. Lets try it all over again. Why not decrease the rewards and difficulty of the various instances in RoK and TSO so we all can play together doing stuff we never were able to do before. Although Splitpaw was dull for some as someone mentioned, it was fun being able to do it in a scaled down version if that was the best you could put together. Greater risk and Challenge should always offer a better reward, no one would expect the same reward for doing a "easy mode" dungeon verses the same dungeon as "Difficult Heroic". The benefit would be that your adding accesability to more content while not having to develope entirely new zones. Who knows, when these (self included) players get a taste of the zones, they just might learn enough and desire to move from the kiddie table and join you.Honestly, how do people expect us to sympathize with the general lack of group/raid content in RoK, then smile when the complete reverse happened in TSO? What was bad for the group/raid player then, is now bad for the solo/duo/casual player now. Make the rewards exclusive, not the instances and everyone can enjoy the game. Walk away with your fabled, I just want to see new content.

bryldan

12-03-2008, 08:31 PM

<cite>Giland@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldn't complain if they "scaled" the dungeons a bit to make it a bit easier for unconventionall groups. A difficulty setting that works for example. Just lower the mobs and start removing the named. So if there were 3 levels, easy, medium and hard (hard being the current level) Easy has the mobs being 9 levels lower and only 1 named in the zone that has a modified loot table where a fabled item (if on the list at all) only had a 10% chance of the hards chance to drop. Medium is mobs are 5 levels lower, has half the named, and has a 50% chance of the hards chance to drop.The "shard chest" would no longer be a guarantee, but have a decent percentage chance to appear. For instance, easy is 50%, medium is 75% chance.</blockquote>Or how about this ZERO shards for easy 50% chance at a key droping for medium and 100% guarnteed for hard and you also CANNOT do shard quests unless it is on hard.... Why do I say that? Well learn your char and do it the way it was designed you should not be given the goodies just because you do not want to be bothered with doing it the way it was meant to be done. If you want to see the dungeons and cannot for whatever reason beat it on hard then go ahead but you get no shards.........

Kendricke

12-03-2008, 08:33 PM

<cite>Meridia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>your level 80, you can get 200 aa's and some realy nice Shardgear/items, i highely doubt the devs are going to Nerf these zones anytime zoon seeing as the Vast majority is enjoying them(and im sure the devs are seeing what im seeing and ALOT of people are Re-subbing) , and has a YEAR befor they get a new expansion, sure we will get a new instance like re2 in a few months, maybe even 2 of them by next year , but thats about all for the group game , so these group zones need to keep Group players interested for a long long time, and making them easier a month after release would kill the progression they have implemented ,</blockquote>no, i cant get shard armors, when 98% of the pugs i get are full of morons that dont know what a taunt is.</blockquote>Join a good guild then.

Zarador

12-03-2008, 08:40 PM

<cite>bryldan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giland@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldn't complain if they "scaled" the dungeons a bit to make it a bit easier for unconventionall groups. A difficulty setting that works for example. Just lower the mobs and start removing the named. So if there were 3 levels, easy, medium and hard (hard being the current level) Easy has the mobs being 9 levels lower and only 1 named in the zone that has a modified loot table where a fabled item (if on the list at all) only had a 10% chance of the hards chance to drop. Medium is mobs are 5 levels lower, has half the named, and has a 50% chance of the hards chance to drop.The "shard chest" would no longer be a guarantee, but have a decent percentage chance to appear. For instance, easy is 50%, medium is 75% chance.</blockquote>Or how about this ZERO shards for easy 50% chance at a key droping for medium and 100% guarnteed for hard and you also CANNOT do shard quests unless it is on hard.... Why do I say that? Well learn your char and do it the way it was designed you should not be given the goodies just because you do not want to be bothered with doing it the way it was meant to be done. If you want to see the dungeons and cannot for whatever reason beat it on hard then go ahead but you get no shards.........</blockquote>DING! DING! DING!We have the winner! That's exactly what I am suggesting 100%!I like the way that we play as a family, were geared towards that end and have always played with that play style in mind. I don't want better gear for less effort, nor do I need high end gear for my play style. I simply wish to be able to do as much content as I can and if that meant no shards for easy mode, I still would be very very content.My girlfriend and I play rather well (in our opinion). Our son plays his SK when he feels like logging in and is ultra casual. Our best friend plays a 78 Necro in a way that would make you believe Necro's can't solo very well. We totally enjoy each others company and that's more than enough for us.Over the years we made several alternates and crafters that are capped, done thousands of quests and several heritage quests, completed all the Lore and Legends quests and built a family guild to level 46 with a T-1 Guild Hall and in my opinion, casual or not, certainly put effort into the game.Were not looking for free fabled gear and handouts, just a chance to experience the content.

bryldan

12-03-2008, 08:47 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bryldan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giland@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldn't complain if they "scaled" the dungeons a bit to make it a bit easier for unconventionall groups. A difficulty setting that works for example. Just lower the mobs and start removing the named. So if there were 3 levels, easy, medium and hard (hard being the current level) Easy has the mobs being 9 levels lower and only 1 named in the zone that has a modified loot table where a fabled item (if on the list at all) only had a 10% chance of the hards chance to drop. Medium is mobs are 5 levels lower, has half the named, and has a 50% chance of the hards chance to drop.The "shard chest" would no longer be a guarantee, but have a decent percentage chance to appear. For instance, easy is 50%, medium is 75% chance.</blockquote>Or how about this ZERO shards for easy 50% chance at a key droping for medium and 100% guarnteed for hard and you also CANNOT do shard quests unless it is on hard.... Why do I say that? Well learn your char and do it the way it was designed you should not be given the goodies just because you do not want to be bothered with doing it the way it was meant to be done. If you want to see the dungeons and cannot for whatever reason beat it on hard then go ahead but you get no shards.........</blockquote>DING! DING! DING!We have the winner! That's exactly what I am suggesting 100%!I like the way that we play as a family, were geared towards that end and have always played with that play style in mind. I don't want better gear for less effort, nor do I need high end gear for my play style. I simply wish to be able to do as much content as I can and if that meant no shards for easy mode, I still would be very very content.My girlfriend and I play rather well (in our opinion). Our son plays his SK when he feels like logging in and is ultra casual. Our best friend plays a 78 Necro in a way that would make you believe Necro's can't solo very well. We totally enjoy each others company and that's more than enough for us.Over the years we made several alternates and crafters that are capped, done thousands of quests and several heritage quests, completed all the Lore and Legends quests and built a family guild to level 46 with a T-1 Guild Hall and in my opinion, casual or not, certainly put effort into the game.Were not looking for free fabled gear and handouts, just a chance to experience the content.</blockquote>And thats how some asking should be thinking but most are thinking hey i can get shard armor much easier if I ask for it this way!!!!!! These same ppl complain about almost anything because they want things to be made easier so they can have that pixated animated armor with as lil effort as possible. I firmly believe in ppl earning a living not being given one yet these ppl are the exact opposite of me and want every handout to them.

drasklin

12-03-2008, 09:00 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are plenty of other titles and multiplayer games out there that offer social interaction with pure grind with no challenge, I'd prefer we didn't make EQ2 one of those. </blockquote>It doesn't have to be either-or, does it? Flaye had a great idea about adding some new instances and a new contested dungeon to RoK to give those casual groupers something to new and fun to do. Add some new loot, basically itemized the same way that CoA/VoES/MC is and with the same general level of difficulty. Heck, if SOE can completely revamp Everfrost (and a compliment of ridiculously overpowered items for the level and difficulty), they could do this.I'm not saying anything should be taken away. I'm just saying that some easier stuff should be added for those folks. As I see it, including more styles of play is better than selectively excluding them in the name of progression. And rightly or wrongly, there are a lot of people who feel that they are "locked out" of experiencing much of what TSO has to offer. And them walking away with their 15 bucks is not good for the long-term health of the game that we enjoy.</blockquote>Your argument is predicated upon the premise that there's this significant pool of players cancelling right now because The Shadow Odyssey isn't providing the right content. I reject this premise outright. I've only seen a handful of players on these forums claiming they've cancelled (and they KEEP claiming they've cancelled, mind you) because SOE isn't providing them the right content.Well, good for them. No, really. Good for them. If they don't feel that SOE is providing them the right content, they need to cancel. In the meantime, I'd like to introduce a few new names to you: Lorelily, Artteen, Etric, Basta, Oranorn, Raylorn, Xeavn, Falimar, and Matthew. These are ALL members of my guild who had, till recently, had inactive accounts with SOE. Within the past month or so, all of them have reinstated their long dormant accounts and begun logging in again, having fun with this new expansion. I've been contacted by another dozen or so former guildmates and friends over the past few weeks asking for my impressions on this new expansion. Now, you could say I'm a "hub" player. I run a large guild. I'm friends with other guild leaders. I tend to have a large friends list across servers. I'm relatively well known on these forums. So, when I tell you that my networks are more active in the past month than they have been in a year or more, I hope you understand what that means. For every person you know that's cancelling, I probably know a couple who are coming back to the game. That doesn't even BEGIN to touch upon brand new players.So again I say, good for them. Good for those players who feel it's time to see greener pastures. If they think there's a game out there that better meets their needs, I think it's right for them to move on. Honestly and truly. Good bye. Good luck. I wish them the best. ...Of course, none of this has anything to do with whether or not it's good game design to cater to every possible playstyle with every possible bit of content. Not every instance should scale. Not every piece of loot should have multiple paths of acquisition. </blockquote>It's obvious that you love all the instances. I'm sure this is the expansion you have been waiting for and are enjoying it a lot. One thing you should keep in mind tho is since EQ2 launched there has been ample content for small groups.My wife and I duoed and trioed from launch to lvl 50. In March of 2005 raiding was introduced and we joined our first guild and have been raiding ever since. When we don't raid, we still duo or group with another couple. Every expansion has been fun for us and we have had pleanty to do. Once in awhile we do an instance, but we really don't like them. We have all 9 tradeskioll classes to lvl 80 and have always contributed to our guild. if guildy's needed group help, we were there even tho it wasn't our thing.TSO launched and all that has changed. The game has none of the content past expansions have offered. In order to play the game we have grown to love, we need to replay stale zones. You may think this is fine, because it doesn't affect you. How would you feel if the next expansion had 100 heroic quests and 20 solo dungeons? How would you like to be told to just go back and play the TSO instances another year? If you can imagine that you would understand how many other players that don't enjoy the same game you do feel.This game has catered to many styles of play since launch, but in that regard this expansion has failed miserably. We are taking a break, and you say good ridence and thats too bad. The whole game loses when whole groups of people are excluded and leave.

Kendricke

12-03-2008, 09:26 PM

<cite>drasklin wrote:</cite><blockquote>You may think this is fine, because it doesn't affect you. </blockquote>Please note that on several occasions throughout this thread and within others, I have stated time and again that I am all for more solo or duo content. I just don't feel that the best solution for "more content" is "dumb down current content" or "water down current content" - even as options.I'd be ALL for new solo or duo content.

12-03-2008, 09:40 PM

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, how do people expect us to sympathize with the general lack of group/raid content in RoK, then smile when the complete reverse happened in TSO? What was bad for the group/raid player then, is now bad for the solo/duo/casual player now. Make the rewards exclusive, not the instances and everyone can enjoy the game. Walk away with your fabled, I just want to see new content.</blockquote>Well said. My point of view if you smash both expansions together they would have been fine, unfortunatly that is not what happened and as such we are where we are now. Considering limited dev resources well that's why we got it basically split in two.

bryldan

12-03-2008, 09:52 PM

<cite>drasklin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are plenty of other titles and multiplayer games out there that offer social interaction with pure grind with no challenge, I'd prefer we didn't make EQ2 one of those. </blockquote>It doesn't have to be either-or, does it? Flaye had a great idea about adding some new instances and a new contested dungeon to RoK to give those casual groupers something to new and fun to do. Add some new loot, basically itemized the same way that CoA/VoES/MC is and with the same general level of difficulty. Heck, if SOE can completely revamp Everfrost (and a compliment of ridiculously overpowered items for the level and difficulty), they could do this.I'm not saying anything should be taken away. I'm just saying that some easier stuff should be added for those folks. As I see it, including more styles of play is better than selectively excluding them in the name of progression. And rightly or wrongly, there are a lot of people who feel that they are "locked out" of experiencing much of what TSO has to offer. And them walking away with their 15 bucks is not good for the long-term health of the game that we enjoy.</blockquote>Your argument is predicated upon the premise that there's this significant pool of players cancelling right now because The Shadow Odyssey isn't providing the right content. I reject this premise outright. I've only seen a handful of players on these forums claiming they've cancelled (and they KEEP claiming they've cancelled, mind you) because SOE isn't providing them the right content.Well, good for them. No, really. Good for them. If they don't feel that SOE is providing them the right content, they need to cancel. In the meantime, I'd like to introduce a few new names to you: Lorelily, Artteen, Etric, Basta, Oranorn, Raylorn, Xeavn, Falimar, and Matthew. These are ALL members of my guild who had, till recently, had inactive accounts with SOE. Within the past month or so, all of them have reinstated their long dormant accounts and begun logging in again, having fun with this new expansion. I've been contacted by another dozen or so former guildmates and friends over the past few weeks asking for my impressions on this new expansion. Now, you could say I'm a "hub" player. I run a large guild. I'm friends with other guild leaders. I tend to have a large friends list across servers. I'm relatively well known on these forums. So, when I tell you that my networks are more active in the past month than they have been in a year or more, I hope you understand what that means. For every person you know that's cancelling, I probably know a couple who are coming back to the game. That doesn't even BEGIN to touch upon brand new players.So again I say, good for them. Good for those players who feel it's time to see greener pastures. If they think there's a game out there that better meets their needs, I think it's right for them to move on. Honestly and truly. Good bye. Good luck. I wish them the best. ...Of course, none of this has anything to do with whether or not it's good game design to cater to every possible playstyle with every possible bit of content. Not every instance should scale. Not every piece of loot should have multiple paths of acquisition. </blockquote>It's obvious that you love all the instances. I'm sure this is the expansion you have been waiting for and are enjoying it a lot. One thing you should keep in mind tho is since EQ2 launched there has been ample content for small groups.My wife and I duoed and trioed from launch to lvl 50. In March of 2005 raiding was introduced and we joined our first guild and have been raiding ever since. When we don't raid, we still duo or group with another couple. Every expansion has been fun for us and we have had pleanty to do. Once in awhile we do an instance, but we really don't like them. We have all 9 tradeskioll classes to lvl 80 and have always contributed to our guild. if guildy's needed group help, we were there even tho it wasn't our thing.TSO launched and all that has changed. The game has none of the content past expansions have offered. In order to play the game we have grown to love, we need to replay stale zones. You may think this is fine, because it doesn't affect you. How would you feel if the next expansion had 100 heroic quests and 20 solo dungeons? How would you like to be told to just go back and play the TSO instances another year? If you can imagine that you would understand how many other players that don't enjoy the same game you do feel.This game has catered to many styles of play since launch, but in that regard this expansion has failed miserably. We are taking a break, and you say good ridence and thats too bad. The whole game loses when whole groups of people are excluded and leave.</blockquote>I will basically say the same thing you said when rok came out and the roles were reversed..... Too bad. Honestly tho rok had TOO much solo content so they made TSO more group oriented how hard is that? SOE knows they made the mistake of going way overboard for solo content so they wanted to make it up to the groupers now it is there time to shine. The only thing i am wondering is when will raiders get a slice of that pie <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rijacki

12-03-2008, 09:56 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you've been doing RoK content (any of it) for a year, even casually, unless you declined on EVERY loot drop and deleted EVERY quest reward and coin reward in some intentional attempt to keep yourself at the gimpest possible capability, you WILL have the gear and abilities to run the easiest instances in TSO. You would have -several- legendary and even a few nice fabled pieces even if you only ever soloed in RoK for a year as long as you actually did the quest lines -and- didn't throw everything away out of spite, avirice, or whatever.</blockquote>So the casual players where who are raising the issue, they're all... what? I don't know. I'm just trying to look at the situation from all sides, and I think more could be done for those folks.</blockquote>There is a difference between looking at a situation from all sides and outright extreme exageration. Making the claim that someone would have been doing RoK for a year and have nothing, as you were in your posts, is the later.Do the TSO instances take more player attention and skill than previous heroic content? yes.Do the TSO instances require at least gear better than handcrafted and spells/CAs better than Apprentice IV? yes.Is it at all likely that someone who has been been "doing ROK instances and dungeons for a year" on that character have absolutely nothing that would be up to the challenge of the easiest of the TSO instances? absolutely not.

Mins

12-03-2008, 10:08 PM

don't post on the forums a lot, mostly because it turns in to "a vs b" dirt tossing match...I'm getting really tired of this group not group thing.So..., I'd suggest everyone take the ingame survey soe put in, directly let soe know your opions.But, you have to forgive the person who made the survey.There are a few cross-wrote questions... like the one about other games your have played or are playing... there was no choice for have played only - never, playing, played this year.Unlike all you game jumpers I play one game, this one EQ2 - not any others just one. Since the fey expansion, started when the game came out but it was just to much FORCED GROUPING... until the fey expansion... then that one got me back..Anyways, take the survey -- type /survey in the chat window it will open the ingame browser and start the survey.I'm not happy with the expansion, i'm not happy with the instances, and for the record I didn't like RoK either - so stop saying it was for the small/solo people. All i could do was the overland which was EASY... where did they hide the MIDDLE GROUND? The scale is easy -> medium -> hard -> extra hard. EQ2 seems to be easy -> hard -> extra hard.So to the dev's and raiders take off that fabled gear, put on some MC and App3 then try your easy instances. And maybe you will understand why those of us who DONT have that raid gear are a bit unhappy. And don't tell me to do the overland stuff... thats not the point.Oh, and the next person who says mmo is grouping i'm going to hunt down and ....Here is a really simple explanation. This big rock we all are on called earth is a technically a MMO, we all live here, we all play here, and some even kill here. Now this town i live in is a instance, more or less. I have people all around me, but we don't all play together and we don't all like each other -- so why the .... do I have to group in a fictional game? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /> I dont like most of you people, why would i group with you when by the end of the eveing i'd prefer killing you.Oh, and another thing - grow up in chat, where did all you learn to talk. Half that stuff you all say can not be said in the forums, what makes you thing you can say it in the game. And dont tell me to leave the freaking channel, go make a private one you can say anything you like - idc.I'm still here in EQ2 because i was playing a game that was taken over by the turkish game players, who ofcourse thought the "f" word was hello. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9293feeb0183c67ea1ea8c52f0dbaf8c.gif" border="0" /> So you would log in and it would be a hundred "hellos" and the interesting things they wanted to do with your sister...Anyways, I came back to EQ2 when the fae expansion came out, i didn't like the RoK expansion - only reason we bought it was the level increase, a distance goal but something to work toward. This last expansion, whats the goal? No level increase, new instances for coins for armor - but you have to have better gear to get any, oh and there are these anoying little puzzles and traps and... [Removed for Content]? If i wanted to play puzzle games i'd go play them...I could go on, and on about the current direction of this game - but whats the point.that's my rant and if you dont like it, bah - go play in traffic. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" />a frustrated fae expasion player, Mins

liveja

12-04-2008, 01:41 AM

<cite>drasklin wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole game loses when whole groups of people are excluded and leave.</blockquote>No, YOUR game loses when YOU choose to not do anything other than duos. But don't go blaming SOE for YOUR choice.I don't lose a thing from your decision to not group, nor, in fact, will I be the least bit affected because people with whom I never would have grouped to begin with -- because they never do anything other than duos -- choose to cancel their accounts.I'm not saying "good riddance", mind you. I'm just sayin'.

freel

12-04-2008, 03:01 AM

Flaye, I've lost all patience with people like you. Regardless of how we play or why we play, this is everyone's game who pays for the software and the monthly fee. No one has the right, including you, to make comments to make anyone feel as if they don't have the right to be here. So if you can't post constructively, please keep your comments off the board.There is a serious problem going on in the community. Common ground will never be found as long as people like you post nothing but hateful comments. So please either post something constructive or don't post at all. Thanks

Kigneer

12-04-2008, 03:24 AM

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>your level 80 with the ability to get 200 aa's , the game can't stay Carebear forever , it was bleeding players like a wet diaper at endgame</blockquote>It "bleeds" players for other reasons like finding competent players to play instances. Half the raiders I've met in this game I wouldn't trust with my life, they're to MEMEME. They'll group for content, and spend their time in chat talking about drugs.If folks want to just run through instances, they really need to play a FPS game -- 24/7 deathmatches.I got this game because I thought it'll have more engaging storylines like a true RPG, with places to explore, people to meet, tradeskilling to abandon -- anything BUT deathmatches I can get from a dozen or more FPS games. But it's more of what can be played in 30 minutes for ADHD raiders so chaotic for gear, that Wizzies are even tanking.If this game continues the path of a FPS mindset, I'll have no choice but to go back to games like Morrowind with it's 1000+ addon mods to enjoy a fantasy/roleplaying game.Tired of running to the end, and missing 90% of the content for bragging rights. Been there, done that and have the trophies to prove it. Want and need content that I can just plain enjoy, and not constantly raiding to do so.

drasklin

12-04-2008, 04:05 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>drasklin wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole game loses when whole groups of people are excluded and leave.</blockquote>No, YOUR game loses when YOU choose to not do anything other than duos. But don't go blaming SOE for YOUR choice.I don't lose a thing from your decision to not group, nor, in fact, will I be the least bit affected because people with whom I never would have grouped to begin with -- because they never do anything other than duos -- choose to cancel their accounts.I'm not saying "good riddance", mind you. I'm just sayin'.</blockquote>I didn't say I only duo. What I said was I don't enjoy instances. I group a lot in raid, I do small groups, I box, I solo, I tradeskill and by far do much more game content than you do by simply doing instnces. What I am saying is this expansion is ALL instances except for the 100 or so solo quests. I also said that this is the only expansion in EQ2 history that has been so lopsided.I am taking a game break, and you say that doesn't affect you or people like you but it does. There are 8 accounts in my immediate family that are being canceled, that is roughly $200.00 a month SOE doesn't have to give you the next expansions content. My cheap potions, free tradeskilling, cheap food and drink and temorary adornments won't be there for you to enjoy. My raid geared healer won't be there to answer peoples calls for help on mobs for their epic quests or to assist them finishing their heroic quests in COM, Sebilis, Chardok or wherever. God knows the people addicted to instance play aren't going to offer.I don't do instances by choice, but I think they are an important part of a balanced game, this is where we differ. I am mature enough to respect your game play but you are not mature enough to respect mine. When the player base shrinks, for whatever reason, the game as a whole is worse off. I would even hate to see loud mouth bigots leave if I knew any. So you got the game you want, enjoy it. If SOE comes out with a balance in the next new content I may come back, and then again, I may not.Edited to add:Most of my fond memories in this game have not come from raid zones or instances. Most have come from contested dungeons. Runnyeye, obelisk, Permafrost, SOS, POA, MMC, CMM, Sebilis, Chardok, KC. These are the kind of zones that make this game a true MMO. You don't just interact with 5 other players but you interact with the community. You actually compete sometimes and cooperate sometimes with other groups. If they wipe you can offer a rez. If they need an update for a member but are too weak, you can offer to help.We like to do the small group thing. The four of us can go anywhere we desire and plan our evening to kill whatever difficulty we want. There is no set order, no script, no restrictions. If the wife and I want to just duo, we can do KC, top part of Sebilis, front of Chardok or COM. These kind of zones are non existant in TSO. Sure, we can go back to ROK and keep doing them, but we're burned out after a year and are completely left out of this expansion.This expansion has changed this game dramatically, and not in the direction you think. It is no longer a tru MMO, but is like a playstation game that confines your interaction to a group of 6 players. Wake up SOE.

Yella

12-04-2008, 09:40 AM

Windowlicker

12-04-2008, 09:42 AM

<cite>Yella wrote:</cite><blockquote>You WILL be affected, because there will be less money available for future content as a direct result of people leaving. Less money = less content. You might not realize it when it happens, but it will happen.</blockquote>Kinda like how we were all affected by the tons of people that left due to a lack of group content and multi-mob encounters with RoK?

12-04-2008, 09:57 AM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yella wrote:</cite><blockquote>You WILL be affected, because there will be less money available for future content as a direct result of people leaving. Less money = less content. You might not realize it when it happens, but it will happen.</blockquote> Kinda like how we were all affected by the tons of people that left due to a lack of group content and multi-mob encounters with RoK? </blockquote> In theory yes, although really the question is what was the population at let's say RoK versus what is it now? Are the numbers better or less. Really only SoE can truely answer that question. MY guess is that in general the population is dwindling, and that SoE is attempting to help bring them back (example LL program). I could say crafters that leave the game would be missed, but fortunatly or not, there are usualy a ton of other crafters to fill any gaps that was being supplied by whomever it was that left. I know there are a few nitches I am happy filling now, but I also know there is also competition for what I am doing. NOW if things get to a "critical" state where there really isn't enough of a population on a given server, then yea I could see SoE merging servers, but even that doesn't mean the end all be all of the game. For example good or bad, EQ1 is still going. SoE has prooven in their model that they can keep a minimal staff and still keep folks happy and yet still turn a profit.

DngrMou

12-04-2008, 11:23 AM

<cite>drasklin wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>I didn't say I only duo. What I said was I don't enjoy instances. I group a lot in raid, I do small groups, I box, I solo, I tradeskill and by far do much more game content than you do by simply doing instnces. What I am saying is this expansion is ALL instances except for the 100 or so solo quests. I also said that this is the only expansion in EQ2 history that has been so lopsided.</blockquote>That makes very little, if any sense. Paraphrased, you're saying that outside of the solo content SOE added in this expansion, there's no solo content in this expansion.I am taking a game break, and you say that doesn't affect you or people like you but it does. There are 8 accounts in my immediate family that are being canceled, that is roughly $200.00 a month SOE doesn't have to give you the next expansions content. My cheap potions, free tradeskilling, cheap food and drink and temorary adornments won't be there for you to enjoy. My raid geared healer won't be there to answer peoples calls for help on mobs for their epic quests or to assist them finishing their heroic quests in COM, Sebilis, Chardok or wherever. God knows the people addicted to instance play aren't going to offer.Rage quitting because this expansion is not all that RoK was, is silly. Your decision...but if you're doing it, I suggest you first sell all ingame possessions, give the money away, then delete all your characters. There are usually a spate of such threats following the release of an expansion....not enough/too much raid content, group content, solo content, etc, etc, etc. No one expansion is going to please each and every person in this game, and if the oft made claims of customers leaving in record numbers were in any way true, EQ2 would have ceased to exist shortly after the release of DoF.I don't do instances by choice, but I think they are an important part of a balanced game, this is where we differ. I am mature enough to respect your game play but you are not mature enough to respect mine. When the player base shrinks, for whatever reason, the game as a whole is worse off. I would even hate to see loud mouth bigots leave if I knew any. So you got the game you want, enjoy it. If SOE comes out with a balance in the next new content I may come back, and then again, I may not.You're mature enough to 'respect' other's game play, and immature enough to rage quit because this ONE expansion does'nt cater to you exclusively? Well....bye.</blockquote>

Banditman

12-04-2008, 11:48 AM

<cite>drasklin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I didn't say I only duo. What I said was I don't enjoy instances. I group a lot in raid, I do small groups, I box, I solo, I tradeskill and by far do much more game content than you do by simply doing instnces. What I am saying is this expansion is ALL instances except for the 100 or so solo quests. I also said that this is the only expansion in EQ2 history that has been so lopsided.</blockquote>Ok, so . . . you raid? Perfect. I assume you are in one of those WW1 guilds who have already cleared most of the new raid content then? How about those Tradeskill missions / quests . . . you've already got all the new Shard recipes?There is a lot of content in this expansion that is accessible to a small group. Not quite as much as there was in RoK, but since this is a lateral expansion, that is to be expected.

drasklin

12-04-2008, 11:48 AM

<cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>drasklin wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>I didn't say I only duo. What I said was I don't enjoy instances. I group a lot in raid, I do small groups, I box, I solo, I tradeskill and by far do much more game content than you do by simply doing instnces. What I am saying is this expansion is ALL instances except for the 100 or so solo quests. I also said that this is the only expansion in EQ2 history that has been so lopsided.</blockquote>That makes very little, if any sense. Paraphrased, you're saying that outside of the solo content SOE added in this expansion, there's no solo content in this expansion.I am taking a game break, and you say that doesn't affect you or people like you but it does. There are 8 accounts in my immediate family that are being canceled, that is roughly $200.00 a month SOE doesn't have to give you the next expansions content. My cheap potions, free tradeskilling, cheap food and drink and temorary adornments won't be there for you to enjoy. My raid geared healer won't be there to answer peoples calls for help on mobs for their epic quests or to assist them finishing their heroic quests in COM, Sebilis, Chardok or wherever. God knows the people addicted to instance play aren't going to offer.Rage quitting because this expansion is not all that RoK was, is silly. Your decision...but if you're doing it, I suggest you first sell all ingame possessions, give the money away, then delete all your characters. There are usually a spate of such threats following the release of an expansion....not enough/too much raid content, group content, solo content, etc, etc, etc. No one expansion is going to please each and every person in this game, and if the oft made claims of customers leaving in record numbers were in any way true, EQ2 would have ceased to exist shortly after the release of DoF.I don't do instances by choice, but I think they are an important part of a balanced game, this is where we differ. I am mature enough to respect your game play but you are not mature enough to respect mine. When the player base shrinks, for whatever reason, the game as a whole is worse off. I would even hate to see loud mouth bigots leave if I knew any. So you got the game you want, enjoy it. If SOE comes out with a balance in the next new content I may come back, and then again, I may not.You're mature enough to 'respect' other's game play, and immature enough to rage quit because this ONE expansion does'nt cater to you exclusively? Well....bye.</blockquote> I'm not in a "rage" I am takeing a game break and simply canceling my accounts because I do not want to pay for content I do not play. I also stated that if suitable content is added to this expansion, or future expansions I may return. If that does not happen, I will move my accounts to the exchange server and sell them off. You're mature enough to 'respect' other's game play, and immature enough to rage quit because this ONE expansion does'nt cater to you exclusively? Well....bye.To answer this, I am not looking for content to cater to me exclusively, I don't think any expansion should cater to anyone "exclusively". This expansion does, however, cater to instance players "exclusively" and offers zero, nata for anyone that doesn't do instances.</blockquote>

Kendricke

12-04-2008, 11:52 AM

<cite>Yella wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>drasklin wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole game loses when whole groups of people are excluded and leave.</blockquote>No, YOUR game loses when YOU choose to not do anything other than duos. But don't go blaming SOE for YOUR choice.I don't lose a thing from your decision to not group, nor, in fact, will I be the least bit affected because people with whom I never would have grouped to begin with -- because they never do anything other than duos -- choose to cancel their accounts.I'm not saying "good riddance", mind you. I'm just sayin'.</blockquote>You WILL be affected, because there will be less money available for future content as a direct result of people leaving. Less money = less content. You might not realize it when it happens, but it will happen.</blockquote>Why do you assume new players aren't filling in your spots? I've seen nearly a dozen guildmates return in the past month already. I can assure you that even more are on the way.

Yimway

12-04-2008, 12:04 PM

<cite>Mins wrote:</cite><blockquote>So to the dev's and raiders take off that fabled gear, put on some MC and App3 then try your easy instances. And maybe you will understand why those of us who DONT have that raid gear are a bit unhappy. And don't tell me to do the overland stuff... thats not the point.</blockquote>I do this every time I do instances my friend. My raid main already has all the shards he will ever need. Nearly all instance i do are on MC/legendary alts that have geared off nothing by instances. I've been successfully puging the moderate instances with alts with no raid gear just fine. The easy ones have been just that, easy.

Kendricke

12-04-2008, 12:09 PM

<cite>Mins wrote:</cite><blockquote>So to the dev's and raiders take off that fabled gear, put on some MC and App3 then try your easy instances. And maybe you will understand why those of us who DONT have that raid gear are a bit unhappy. And don't tell me to do the overland stuff... thats not the point.</blockquote>I've already stated several times that I've taken my other characters through the instances. Some of those characters only have mastercrafted/quested gear and Adept III's. I've been using the instances to pick up shards which I'm using to upgrade out of the mastercrafted. The short answer: it's very possible to handle the easy instances in mastercrafted/quested gear and adept III's.

Yimway

12-04-2008, 12:10 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why do you assume new players aren't filling in your spots? I've seen nearly a dozen guildmates return in the past month already. I can assure you that even more are on the way. </blockquote>I'm seeing the same thing. People returning from AoC and Warhammer in droves cause they got to max level and couldn't find any end-game to keep then interested. They head about all the group focused content in expansion and re-instated eq2.My problems atm are centered on I now have nearly 40 people wanting in on 24 man raids cause they've all come back at once.

Faenril

12-04-2008, 12:55 PM

I would like to remind the complainers that this expansion is supposed to last 1 year... Ppl keep asking for easymode instances, but let's imagine their wish is granted ... what will they do in a month from now when they got their complete shard armor set ? Quit and let the servers quiet for another 11 months ? Some content is too hard for you now ? Well, good news... take it as a challenge. You have 1 year left to beat it, why should you be able to clean everything on release day ? Work in ROK instances and easiest TSO instances to gear up. Get better at your class - sigh ! - learn who you can reliably group with and who you should not. Learn how to build a balanced group, suitable to target content, not a guard fury and 4 wizards pug...Adapt and overcome, stop asking for everything to be handed on a silver plate.

LordPazuzu

12-04-2008, 01:30 PM

Bah, lame duck argument. My guild isn't raid geared and we've been doing the new zones just fine. We can't beat every single one, but isn't that the point? You start with the lower end ones like Scion of Ice and work your way up the progression as you get new gear and AA's.

CrazyMoogle

12-04-2008, 01:38 PM

Some of you people should be crowned the kings and queens of specious arguments. It would be amazingly easy, although incredibly boring, to sit and pick apart some of the laughable "my way" arguments presented here.A few quick points though for those having difficulty keeping up:(1) The instances do not require raid gear to start (at least not all of them)(2) Grouping with people on your friends list is not the same as a PUG.(3) Some PUGs end up turning out well, but the people on here most vocally against solo content exaggerate the performance of PUGs and outright refuse to talk about the many, many bad experiences that are had in PUGs.(4) Nothing in the game would be harmed by someone being able to solo 1 shard per day, allowing that person over the course of some weeks or months to become more group worthy and have the added benefit of appealing to the solo player without negatively impacting the grouper.(5) Kiara is very tolerant in many ways. A lot of you here should be thankful for that.(6) You can't redo solo questlines so saying "go back and do RoK solo stuff" is an amazingly stupid argument. Now, if SOE created some way for people to reset a questline so you could go back and repeat it for experience and AA then that would be a viable argument. But you can't do that. So don't make yourself look stupid by saying it. That's just friendly advice from someone who wants to help you not look moronic.(7) Saying "we had to suffer through RoK so you should have to suffer through TSO" is extremely immature and not even accurate. The faults of RoK do not in any way excuse the faults in TSO.(<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Continuing from #7, RoK most certainly did not have "too much solo content." It had a lack of group content. Those are not the same thing.(9) Continuing from numbers 4 and 6-8, TSO has too little solo content. Adding more reusable solo content would help placate soloers while taking nothing from the groupers. The once daily quest such as in Grobb is a great idea. More of that is what is needed.(10) Maybe there could be a thread somewhere of people who are new to grouping but wanting to try the instances so they could hook up. Or a mentor could hook up with them. I see varying people on this thread and others who say they want to try stuff, but scattered around different servers. I've seen none whom I've recognized as being on my server.That's enough for now. There could be more, and there no doubt will be when the next wave of spew starts rolling in, but this is a good place to start.

Yimway

12-04-2008, 01:47 PM

<cite>Khayleigh@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>(7) Saying "we had to suffer through RoK so you should have to suffer through TSO" is extremely immature and not even accurate. The faults of RoK do not in any way excuse the faults in TSO.(<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> Continuing from #7, RoK most certainly did not have "too much solo content." It had a lack of group content. Those are not the same thing.</blockquote>Given finite developer resources, RoK did have "too much solo content". I can't say if TSO has too little solo content, as I've only spent about 12 hours soloing and have barely scratched the surface of it.If RoK had doube the developer resources, then yes, it had the right amount of solo content <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

drasklin

12-04-2008, 01:50 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>drasklin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I didn't say I only duo. What I said was I don't enjoy instances. I group a lot in raid, I do small groups, I box, I solo, I tradeskill and by far do much more game content than you do by simply doing instnces. What I am saying is this expansion is ALL instances except for the 100 or so solo quests. I also said that this is the only expansion in EQ2 history that has been so lopsided.</blockquote>Ok, so . . . you raid? Perfect. I assume you are in one of those WW1 guilds who have already cleared most of the new raid content then? How about those Tradeskill missions / quests . . . you've already got all the new Shard recipes?</blockquote>Why would I play the game for a whole year just to raid? Why would I bother to do tradeskill quests? I don't have the void shard reciepies and don't want them. Why spend a year just crafting for other people?You guys have fun, enjoy your instances and have an awesome expansion. My account expires tomorrow so iIm out. maybe I'll see ya next year.

Kordran

12-04-2008, 02:16 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Given finite developer resources, RoK did have "too much solo content". I can't say if TSO has too little solo content, as I've only spent about 12 hours soloing and have barely scratched the surface of it. </blockquote>Even with my raiding schedule, I've already blown through all of the solo quest lines in TSO aside from the tradeskilling oriented ones. What's left are the instance quests, HQs and TSO signature quests.Oh, and for anyone who thinks that they can solo their way to 200 APs, they're going to be in for a rude awakening. If you started TSO with 140, the solo quest lines in MoY and killing all of the solo named will get you to somewhere around 160 and that's it. And frankly, I don't see how they're going to manage getting another 40 APs just through XP conversion... I think even the "hardcore soloers" will go insane with all of the mobs they'd need to kill that way.

RafaelSmith

12-04-2008, 02:17 PM

What exactly was the original point of this thread?Ive seen complaints that TSO has too much group content....NOT TRUE...it may not have enough solo content however.Ive seen complaints that TSO instances require perfect raid-geared players to complete....NOT TRUE in the slightest. My guild is proof positive. There are at least 5-6 TSO instances that can easily be done with smart players in MC/Legendary/AD1sIMO TSO offers something for every playstyle...solo being the one that I probably could have more of...1 solo-shard quest per day would be great IMO.I firmly believe that everyone should have some path to the TSO shards regardless of playstyle...just as long as the time involved scales. Someone that groups all the time for shards should be getting shards 6x as fast as someone that only solos (assuming they add some daily-shard quest).

Kendricke

12-04-2008, 02:35 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Given finite developer resources, RoK did have "too much solo content". I can't say if TSO has too little solo content, as I've only spent about 12 hours soloing and have barely scratched the surface of it. </blockquote>Even with my raiding schedule, I've already blown through all of the solo quest lines in TSO aside from the tradeskilling oriented ones. What's left are the instance quests, HQs and TSO signature quests.</blockquote>"The reason that SOE is unlikely to change this in any significant way doesn't have to do with lore, or anything along those lines. It primarily has to do with money. Players in guilds who have established social ties within the context of the game are much more likely to maintain their subscription and continue playing. Players who have no such ties and are "lone wolves" are more likely to hop around from game to game, cancel their subscription, etc. because there's little or no social aspect which ties them to the game beyond the game itself. SOE will do everything they reasonably can to reinforce those social ties, to make it so that leaving the game isn't just pressing the cancel button, it also means walking away from your (virtual) friends and encouraging guilds is a great tool towards that end." -<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=40&topic_id=429268�" target="_blank">Kordran, September 10, 2008</a>Do you remember saying that, Kordran? Because it's a great post. It sums up my thoughts regarding folks who have trouble finding groups outside of guilds, who are here to be around other players but not to necessarily bond with other players, who are here to primarily solo without putting in the effort to group or find guilds.

Renpatsu

12-04-2008, 02:39 PM

Lots of my opinion had already been said by one or another, I'll state it nevertheless.As for TSO, the new group dungeons are probably the best that could've happened for those, that do like to group up. Every dungeon got a tiny bit to figure out, which I really like. Also the 'tiered' progression in the dungeons is very welcome, having a blast.With that being said, SOE seems to overcompensate. RoK was quite solo heavy (both with amount of content and also reward quality that could be gained/bought with soloing) and TSO is now quite group heavy - as I do see it with comparing the offered content.Nevertheless though, adding solo quests that would offer shards would do more harm than good from my view. The void shard armor is the class set armor of TSO and it should require adequate content (group and raids) to get the respective armor quality. I wouldn't mind enabling a certain solo reward system which utilizes daily solo missions, but the rewards shouldn't be the void shard armor that is currently on the merchants.

Katelei

12-04-2008, 02:51 PM

RafaelSmith

12-04-2008, 02:53 PM

<cite>Ceneen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nevertheless though, adding solo quests that would offer shards would do more harm than good from my view. The void shard armor is the class set armor of TSO and it should require adequate content (group and raids) to get the respective armor quality. I wouldn't mind enabling a certain solo reward system which utilizes daily solo missions, but the rewards shouldn't be the void shard armor that is currently on the merchants.</blockquote>Not entirely sure I agree. I prefer to group...so that is how I will get my shards....I could honestly care less how someone else gets them...assuming time/dificulty to do so scales appropriately....If a system could be put in place which would let a soloer get 1 shard every 48hours or something the advantage and incentive to group remains intact. Or if the designers would actually attempt to be creative they could make whatever the final objective of the solo-shard quest is be different depending on class...and make it something dificult for that class. Another thing would be to make the solo-shard quest involve a solo-only instance..that way you are forced to solo it. Often I think people ask for solo content when what they really want is stuff 2-3 people can blow thru without effort.There are million ways that MMO designers could go about catering equally to all playstyles...they just refuse to break from old says and get creative.This issues has nothing to do with Solo -vs Group -vs- Raid...Its entirely about the lack of creativity from MMO designers in balancing reward -vs- effort/challenge.

Kiara

12-04-2008, 02:55 PM

Hello all!Just a gentle reminder to keep things as civil as humanly possible <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> This is a good discussion so let's all be respectful of each other's opinions, please.

Renpatsu

12-04-2008, 03:16 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ceneen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nevertheless though, adding solo quests that would offer shards would do more harm than good from my view. The void shard armor is the class set armor of TSO and it should require adequate content (group and raids) to get the respective armor quality. I wouldn't mind enabling a certain solo reward system which utilizes daily solo missions, but the rewards shouldn't be the void shard armor that is currently on the merchants.</blockquote>Not entirely sure I agree. I prefer to group...so that is how I will get my shards....I could honestly care less how someone else gets them...assuming time/dificulty to do so scales appropriately....If a system could be put in place which would let a soloer get 1 shard every 48hours or something the advantage and incentive to group remains intact. Or if the designers would actually attempt to be creative they could make whatever the final objective of the solo-shard quest is be different depending on class...and make it something dificult for that class. Another thing would be to make the solo-shard quest involve a solo-only instance..that way you are forced to solo it. Often I think people ask for solo content when what they really want is stuff 2-3 people can blow thru without effort.There are million ways that MMO designers could go about catering equally to all playstyles...they just refuse to break from old says and get creative.This issues has nothing to do with Solo -vs Group -vs- Raid...Its entirely about the lack of creativity from MMO designers in balancing reward -vs- effort/challenge.</blockquote>As there are different playstyles, I'd like to play a game that offers rewards adequate to the playstyles you get them from. Which means group dungeons offer group reward, solo content offers solo reward and raid content offers raid reward. Certainly under the premise, that gear gained by soloing is quite enough to engage into serious grouping and so on.If you start 'watering' the borders down with regards to solo/group, I could go ahead and ask for getting fractions of the raid patterns for the fabled set pieces by grouping. One fragment of a pattern every 48 hours, a definite amount of fragments make a pattern. Takes quite a while to get a full set of fabled probably then, but eventually I'd be able to get it via grouping alone. This doesn't look like a solution I ever want to see implemented.From my view, the reward should be adequate and designed for that playstyle and that is how TSO handles it currently. I am all for new content for soloers and small groupers alike, but I certainly don't like to see the rewards intermangled. As the content got progression, the rewards should follow the progression also.

BriarHaven

12-04-2008, 03:18 PM

Why should groups demand six people? Why not 2 - 4 also? This is why, I believe, we need a scaleing system with rewards rated to difficulty.

Kordran

12-04-2008, 03:39 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>"The reason that SOE is unlikely to change this in any significant way doesn't have to do with lore, or anything along those lines. It primarily has to do with money. Players in guilds who have established social ties within the context of the game are much more likely to maintain their subscription and continue playing. Players who have no such ties and are "lone wolves" are more likely to hop around from game to game, cancel their subscription, etc. because there's little or no social aspect which ties them to the game beyond the game itself. SOE will do everything they reasonably can to reinforce those social ties, to make it so that leaving the game isn't just pressing the cancel button, it also means walking away from your (virtual) friends and encouraging guilds is a great tool towards that end." -<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=40&topic_id=429268�" target="_blank">Kordran, September 10, 2008</a>Do you remember saying that, Kordran? Because it's a great post. It sums up my thoughts regarding folks who have trouble finding groups outside of guilds, who are here to be around other players but not to necessarily bond with other players, who are here to primarily solo without putting in the effort to group or find guilds. </blockquote>Sure, I remember it and I think it's true. What I said about soloing and APs was an observation, not a statement that it was wrong. I was simply commenting on Atan's post where he said that after 12 hours of soloing in MoY he had barely scratched the surface -- my point was that, in terms of solo content in TSO there's not much surface to scratch. The solo quests are basically in line with the RoK solo quest lines in terms of difficulty (read: not difficult at all), they're just significantly fewer in number.Also, by extension, I don't think that people who group should have access to the same kind of gear that people who raid can get. I'm absolutely fine with the tiers of itemization in the game, and I'm also fine with the few exceptions to the rule. In other words, I have no problem if one or two long, involved solo quests have a fabled reward. And I have no problem with a fabled item rarely dropping in a group instance. But I think those should continue to be the rare exception, and not the norm.I am one of those people who think that it is in the designer's best interest to encourage grouping as much as possible. I don't think soloers should be excluded by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think that the social aspect of MMOs is what makes the game greater than the sum of its parts.In these serveral posts that discuss the issue of TSO's difficulty, you'll not find a single post from me stating that I think soloers should be able to complete group content, or that they should get the same rewards as those who group. Nowhere have I stated that I think soloers should even have the ability to get a single void shard, nor have I stated that I think there should be solo adventure instances. I believe that decision, in particular, would be a destructive force in the game because most players would naturally follow the path of least resistance.The only argument that I have made is that in recognition that there are players who want to group and want to run the instances in TSO -- but they are experiencing frustration due to a variety of issues -- perhaps it would be a good idea to provide easier content for them. Something on the same level of difficulty of CoA or VoES. I have also said that they should not be given the same rewards as those running the current TSO instances, and that nothing should be taken away from the current instances that many players are enjoying, such as your friends and the folks in your guild. I have never asked for anything to be "nerfed" here. I've simply suggested that it may be in SOE's interest to add some new, easier instances for those players who simply aren't up to running through the group content as it is now.In summary: I don't think soloers should have the same rewards as groupers. I don't want instances nerfed. I don't want existing content removed or simplified. I do think that adding even easier content to TSO, with lesser rewards, would provide an additional path of progression would encourage more players to buy the expansion. Telling players to run through the RoK instances to progress does not make SOE additional money. Players buying TSO does. And no one is going to cancel or choose not to come back to the game because easier content has been added.In the end, it'll come down to how SOE decides to manage their developer resources. How many players have returned and are enjoying the new content, versus how many are feeling frustrated and leaving or deciding not to buy the expansion. None of us, not you, not I, know the answer to this. The most we have is anecdotal evidence from the servers we play on, and the extremely skewed feedback on these forums. Hopefully everyone does complete the in-game survey, and that will give SOE the information that they need to make a decision. But when in doubt, I always tend to fall on the side of giving players more options unless it's completely time/cost prohibitive. And the only people who can make that decision with any kind of intelligence work for SOE. I'm sure we'll find out which way they're going with the next few game updates.

RafaelSmith

12-04-2008, 03:40 PM

<cite>Ceneen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ceneen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nevertheless though, adding solo quests that would offer shards would do more harm than good from my view. The void shard armor is the class set armor of TSO and it should require adequate content (group and raids) to get the respective armor quality. I wouldn't mind enabling a certain solo reward system which utilizes daily solo missions, but the rewards shouldn't be the void shard armor that is currently on the merchants.</blockquote>Not entirely sure I agree. I prefer to group...so that is how I will get my shards....I could honestly care less how someone else gets them...assuming time/dificulty to do so scales appropriately....If a system could be put in place which would let a soloer get 1 shard every 48hours or something the advantage and incentive to group remains intact. Or if the designers would actually attempt to be creative they could make whatever the final objective of the solo-shard quest is be different depending on class...and make it something dificult for that class. Another thing would be to make the solo-shard quest involve a solo-only instance..that way you are forced to solo it. Often I think people ask for solo content when what they really want is stuff 2-3 people can blow thru without effort.There are million ways that MMO designers could go about catering equally to all playstyles...they just refuse to break from old says and get creative.This issues has nothing to do with Solo -vs Group -vs- Raid...Its entirely about the lack of creativity from MMO designers in balancing reward -vs- effort/challenge.</blockquote>As there are different playstyles, I'd like to play a game that offers rewards adequate to the playstyles you get them from. Which means group dungeons offer group reward, solo content offers solo reward and raid content offers raid reward. Certainly under the premise, that gear gained by soloing is quite enough to engage into serious grouping and so on.If you start 'watering' the borders down with regards to solo/group, I could go ahead and ask for getting fractions of the raid patterns for the fabled set pieces by grouping. One fragment of a pattern every 48 hours, a definite amount of fragments make a pattern. Takes quite a while to get a full set of fabled probably then, but eventually I'd be able to get it via grouping alone. This doesn't look like a solution I ever want to see implemented.From my view, the reward should be adequate and designed for that playstyle and that is how TSO handles it currently. I am all for new content for soloers and small groupers alike, but I certainly don't like to see the rewards intermangled. As the content got progression, the rewards should follow the progression also.</blockquote>All true.But they need put more thought into how and what gear players get. Currently in TSO there is one set of shard gear...all requring the same type of shards...all gotten from group content. Add to that the lack of viable gear rewards from TSO 'solo' quests..at least from what I have seen...you essentially have the soloers without ways to "progress".I actually would prefer seeing solo-shard quests reward a different type of shard that can only be used to buy shard gear not quite as good as the current basic shard gear. Or if we want to tier everything we need a Tier 0. But basically a full set of this "solo-shard gear" should be such that its a viable minimum set for doing the lower tiered group stuff...etc..etc.That or they need to add a whole bunch of more quests offering large variety of reward options.But in the end people need to accept that whatever playstyle they choose has limits on what items they will have access too. If you see such and such with nice stuff you dont have....instead of comming here and complaining/demanding...either accept that you chose not too do what is required to get it or make efforts to migrate to the playstyle required. I always strive to get the best of what I and my playstyle gives me access too...There are 100s of gear items that I would love to have...someday I might get to them...but I accept that unless I am willing to switch playstyles I may never get them.

Gnova

12-04-2008, 03:51 PM

Given that there can only be a given amount of new content added to the game with each expansion SOE needs to look at ways to make it rewarding to it's playerbase to at least dabble in the three fundamentally different content types that players seek out.Those are solo, group, and raid.There is a pile of solo content in EQ2. The number of solo quests in RoK was almost staggering and they have added few more in TSO and usually add a few quests here and there with events. The biggest issue with solo quest content is that it is usually not repeatable, except for the writ system, and people are stuck in the mindset that solo content=questing. Because of this, there can never be enough solo content added to a game to satisfy a solo oriented player with a medium playtime.There are a load of new areas filled to bursting with solo mobs in the new expansion but unless a solo player has a quest to explore the area and kill the mobs there they aren't interested.Until the release of TSO the amount of group content was lacking. People ran the same few instances over and over and over because that was the only choice. Now there is a bonanza of group instances to choose from. Some have asked for shared dungeons but let's be serious, the only time 95% of the people visited these dungeons was to work on their epic questlines or to do a full runt-hrough once in order to kill all the named for AA. Other then that, or people enroute to raids/instances, they were empty.There is a pretty decent raid progression in EQ2 atm with the casual playerbase being able to dabble in the RoK T1 content, and the more serious raid people progressing further into the content.Okay, that being said, let's look at what content is offered to it's playerbase.Solo oriented player. Possible to level 1-80 never grouping with another individual and probably get your AAs to a decent level (170ish) at the same time. The gear from these questlines will allow you to do the easier group, and raid content if you choose. Solo players still have the advantage because it is possible to get the max level and get a load of AA points playing there preferred playstyle exclusively.Group oriented player. Pretty much forced to do solo questlines for a significant period of leveling since they offer good AA progression which are essential for doing level 80 group content. The gear from the solo quests that they need to complete and from the group instances give them a decent leg up into the raid content if they wish to raid casually. Most groups want reasonably challenging content so if it was made so a group of 3 or 4 people could do it, it would make it trivial for full balanced groups.Raid oriented player. Same as the group preferred player since they need the AAs as much or even more. They also will do group content for a few "golden egg" drops that help fill their raid gear sets.Basically the only playstyle that has a true choice to only play the game the way they most enjoy it is the solo player. They can gear up to a level that will make them successful for their content niche, can acheive max leve, and get a load of AAs. Perhaps they should put together a load of solo instances together with named in them that will drop a ornate 10% of the time, fabled 1% of the time, and you could get a partial shard for completion (maybe 1/4 of a shard that could be combined to make full shards).

Renpatsu

12-04-2008, 04:10 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>...All true.But they need put more thought into how and what gear players get. Currently in TSO there is one set of shard gear...all requring the same type of shards...all gotten from group content. Add to that the lack of viable gear rewards from TSO 'solo' quests..at least from what I have seen...you essentially have the soloers without ways to "progress".I actually would prefer seeing solo-shard quests reward a different type of shard that can only be used to buy shard gear not quite as good as the current basic shard gear. Or if we want to tier everything we need a Tier 0. But basically a full set of this "solo-shard gear" should be such that its a viable minimum set for doing the lower tiered group stuff...etc..etc.That or they need to add a whole bunch of more quests offering large variety of reward options.But in the end people need to accept that whatever playstyle they choose has limits on what items they will have access too. If you see such and such with nice stuff you dont have....instead of comming here and complaining/demanding...either accept that you chose not too do what is required to get it or make efforts to migrate to the playstyle required. I always strive to get the best of what I and my playstyle gives me access too...There are 100s of gear items that I would love to have...someday I might get to them...but I accept that unless I am willing to switch playstyles I may never get them.</blockquote>I cut down all the quoted overhead, so that it's not too long with the quoting.I don't think that getting gear for soloers is even an issue really. True enough, soloers look at groupers and see what they can get as rewards as do groupers look at raiders and see what they can get. And you'll always get some people who state 'why can't I have that one also with my playstyle?!?', but I really think most accept the boundaries.The rewards you get from soloing in TSO are adequate, there is nothing really special though, that I'd agree with. RoK was quite exceptional in that regard, as the rewards you could get by soloing were also quite exceptional, Thuuga as one item that shines, but also faction bought legendary wasn't that bad really or faction crafted for that matter.Something like a armor quest line for soloers/small groupers would certainly be nice (with unique look perhaps), I know quite a few people who did the level 20 AQs and enjoyed them. Also one or two dungeons that are not aimed at level 80 players, meaning that those stay at level 75 for example, so that casual small groupers that are 80 are able to run those instances as 2/3/4 group or so. It could be some more obvious scripting in those as well, to give a small nudge in that direction. Another game I played had a nicely designed solo dungeon - could be grouped also certainly - but essentially had nice scripting that could be performed solo. Doesn't matter that I personally wouldn't have much fun to go through such content over and over again, but some others might do and I respect that.As you can see, I am not too far off from your view really <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

RafaelSmith

12-04-2008, 04:12 PM

I actually wish there were more 2x Raid content.For casual raiding guild like mine...often we cannot field enough even for the easier raids.Having some new 2x stuff we can go after...if for no other reason than practice and learning would be cool.The only problem I see that the soloers have is their "content" is game over when they have completed it...no repeat.As boring as repeating CoA over and over was at least it was something...with always having the slight chance at a master or something.

RafaelSmith

12-04-2008, 04:17 PM

<cite>Ceneen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something like a armor quest line for soloers/small groupers would certainly be nice (with unique look perhaps), I know quite a few people who did the level 20 AQs and enjoyed them. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I never understoof why they never followed thru with those level 20 AQs at subsequent tiers.Even though I knew that gear was not all the great...I thought those quests were done well and gave you something to fill in the gaps while going thru the tier.Would have been nice to continue the series at 30,40,50,60,70,80 all the while upgrading pieces. Maybe even tag on a few minor set bonuses.

Kordran

12-04-2008, 04:21 PM

<cite>Gnova wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most groups want reasonably challenging content so if it was made so a group of 3 or 4 people could do it, it would make it trivial for full balanced groups. </blockquote>Originally groups were designed to be exactly that. If you even look at the descriptions when you con a heroic mob, it talks about the difficulty requiring a group of three or more players. And that holds true though most of EQ2, until you start getting into T8, and particularly the TSO instances. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just making an observation that up to a year ago, for the most part group content was not designed so that it required full, balanced groups. The new content leans much further in that direction. In the past, people wanted to build balanced groups because it meant they could do more content, more easily. Today, you want balanced groups to simply ensure a reasonable chance at success without putting the mender's kids through college.<blockquote>Basically the only playstyle that has a true choice to only play the game the way they most enjoy it is the solo player. They can gear up to a level that will make them successful for their content niche, can acheive max leve, and get a load of AAs. </blockquote>I would disagree with this. People who want to group have a real choice, and from what I can see, there's plenty of opportunity for it. The only issue comes down to class balance, where at a particular time a group may have difficulty finding a certain type of healer, an enchanter or a bard that is online and available. That's temporary though, and usually resolved with a bit of persistence.Of your three playstyles, the only real hitch is raiding. If you want to raid -- and by that, I mean eventually run through all of the raid content, not just run through PR over and over -- then you have to find yourself a raiding guild, or you have to start one yourself. Both of those are non-trivial exercises. Good raiding guilds usually have an extended application process, and a certain set of minimum requirements (already having masters for your core spells, having your epic, etc.) and you have to earn your keep. And for certain classes, such as plate tanks, the only way that you're going to get yourself a slot in an existing guild is to be a very good player, and be recommended by an existing guild member (even when a raiding guild is looking for an MT or MA, they rarely advertise openly for it, they fill the position by word-of-mouth recommendations). Raiding is something that you "earn" your way into, it's not something that you can just wake up one morning and decide you're going to do, like soloing and grouping.

Felshades

12-04-2008, 04:24 PM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to remind the complainers that this expansion is supposed to last 1 year... Ppl keep asking for easymode instances, but let's imagine their wish is granted ... what will they do in a month from now when they got their complete shard armor set ? Quit and let the servers quiet for another 11 months ? Some content is too hard for you now ? Well, good news... take it as a challenge. You have 1 year left to beat it, why should you be able to clean everything on release day ? Work in ROK instances and easiest TSO instances to gear up. Get better at your class - sigh ! - learn who you can reliably group with and who you should not. Learn how to build a balanced group, suitable to target content, not a guard fury and 4 wizards pug...Adapt and overcome, stop asking for everything to be handed on a silver plate.</blockquote>my problem isnt gear, my problem is getting a pug coordinated to run it.till your run of the mill average idiot can run it flawlessly in an hour, im not interested.

Kordran

12-04-2008, 04:31 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never understoof why they never followed thru with those level 20 AQs at subsequent tiers. </blockquote>This is OT, but if they did that, you might as well remove the armorer tradeskill from the game. They're virtually superfluous now with the increase in leveling speed. Offer full sets of questable armor at every tier that, while not as good, would be "good enough" and you've just killed the tradeskill class.Of course, there's those who argue that it's already dead, SOE just hasn't gotten around to throwing the dirt over the corpse. That's for another topic of discussion though.

Yimway

12-04-2008, 06:18 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I actually wish there were more 2x Raid content.For casual raiding guild like mine...often we cannot field enough even for the easier raids.Having some new 2x stuff we can go after...if for no other reason than practice and learning would be cool.The only problem I see that the soloers have is their "content" is game over when they have completed it...no repeat.As boring as repeating CoA over and over was at least it was something...with always having the slight chance at a master or something.</blockquote>1) Your x2 content is everywhere, it's last expansions x4 content. Gear in TSO and run PR with 2 groups, you should be fine. VP with 2 groups will be a stretch, but in general you can do most of the previous expansions x4 with only 2 groups.2) Hate to say it, but organize and recruit. My guild is at the point that we have 30-35 people reserving spots on 24 man raids. There are tons of players out there looking for a casual raid guild, they just want one that has a fair loot policy and has organization and competent leadership. Demonstrate those things and you'll do fine.3) The repeat button for solo content is rolling a new toon. Maybe its not the best option, but looking at what repeatable solo quests are, why would you want to repeat them exactly? I'm open to ideas for repeatable solo quests that wouldn't be a 100% grind. My best idea would make them treasure hunts where you have to get a drop off 12 different mob types in 6 different zones. Randomize it out and go explore.What i would like to see is unlocking server chat channels by account. So a soloist can work on an alt while looking for or monitoring for a group forming/needing thier main.

Yimway

12-04-2008, 06:22 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Basically the only playstyle that has a true choice to only play the game the way they most enjoy it is the solo player. They can gear up to a level that will make them successful for their content niche, can acheive max leve, and get a load of AAs. </blockquote>I would disagree with this. People who want to group have a real choice, and from what I can see, there's plenty of opportunity for it. The only issue comes down to class balance, where at a particular time a group may have difficulty finding a certain type of healer, an enchanter or a bard that is online and available. That's temporary though, and usually resolved with a bit of persistence.</blockquote>I think you missed the point.I want to group doing heroic content and level 1-80 with 160 aa when I ding 80.How exactly in eq2 do I do that? You simply can not do it, if you run heroic content, your going to ding 80 with about 50aa at best. You are virtualy forced to soloquest. So yes, as a group (heroic) / raid (epic) playstyle gamer, Solo content / playstyle is forced on me. Where as, I believe if someone rolls a new toon today they *can* get 80/200 without doing anything but soloquest.I've been rallying for an XP slider to eliminate my need to ever do a soloquest again, but I'll be surprised if that ever goes in. The soloer on the other hand I believe does have a plausible path to max level/aa without every experiencing the other styles of gameplay. So, with TSO the soloer maybe has to do some group content to reach max aa. Not going to get much sympathy from me on that after I suffered thru RoK soloquest 6 times.

Kordran

12-04-2008, 06:56 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I want to group doing heroic content and level 1-80 with 160 aa when I ding 80.How exactly in eq2 do I do that? You simply can not do it, if you run heroic content, your going to ding 80 with about 50aa at best. You are virtualy forced to soloquest.</blockquote>Remove the requirement for heroic content only, and you can group from 1-80 and have around 160 APs. You just need to group together doing the soloable quest lines; because those lines can be soloed doesn't mean they have to be soloed. The game won't refuse to give you XP or AP if you're grouped with someone else. The only wrinkle is that you can end up backtracking and duplicating some steps if the people you're grouped are at different stages of the quest lines (something, by the way, that exists with heroic quest lines as well). Point of fact, when RoK was released last year, I duoed and trioed the Kunark quests; while not challenging, it was fun to just run through them with friends and banter over vent while farming this or that mob, get our updates and move along. Honestly, the the sheer number of quests that gets firehosed on you with Kunark, I'm glad most of them were brainless. Like another poster here said, I get all the challenge I want from raiding. Everything else is my "down time".Regardless, you are not forced to do anything in this game, virtually or otherwise. You have choices, and while certain choices may not be as efficient as others, or conform to a min/max playstyle, they are indeed choices.

Yimway

12-04-2008, 07:05 PM

Kordran

12-04-2008, 07:06 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are tons of players out there looking for a casual raid guild, they just want one that has a fair loot policy and has organization and competent leadership. Demonstrate those things and you'll do fine.</blockquote>That's fine, if all you aspire to is T1 raids. Beyond that, you're not going to find many casual raids who are going to be able to move on to T2 and kill the Overking and Venril. Those are fights that require a degree of coordination that you're not generally going to find with people who raid together every once in a while, and where the lineup is constantly changing.

Yimway

12-04-2008, 07:15 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's fine, if all you aspire to is T1 raids. Beyond that, you're not going to find many casual raids who are going to be able to move on to T2 and kill the Overking and Venril. Those are fights that require a degree of coordination that you're not generally going to find with people who raid together every once in a while, and where the lineup is constantly changing.</blockquote>Really?We're a casual guild and clear VP.It took us 11 months to do it, but we did it just fine.102 accounts, 220 characters, vastly different raid make-up every night. Solid communication and leadershiip is all it took.<a href="http://www.eq2innercircle.org/raidwiki/index.php/Main_Page" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2innercircle.org/raidw...x.php/Main_Page</a>We created a wiki with all the information every member needed to understand the raid content and their role. Communicated that out to the members, ran thru complicated encounters with walk-thru/talk-thru explanations then executed.

RafaelSmith

12-04-2008, 07:16 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never understoof why they never followed thru with those level 20 AQs at subsequent tiers.</blockquote>This is OT, but if they did that, you might as well remove the armorer tradeskill from the game. They're virtually superfluous now with the increase in leveling speed. Offer full sets of questable armor at every tier that, while not as good, would be "good enough" and you've just killed the tradeskill class.Of course, there's those who argue that it's already dead, SOE just hasn't gotten around to throwing the dirt over the corpse. That's for another topic of discussion though.</blockquote>Yeah a different topic of discussion for sure.But I will say that MC gear is a form of gear/reward for soloers.Its very possible to group even PUG the 4 easiest TSO instances in MC gear.

Kordran

12-04-2008, 07:16 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Whether I do soloquest solo or as a group, if I want to get to 80 and be functional, I'm forced to do the soloquest.</blockquote>Again, that's based on what your definition of "functional" is. No one is forcing you to do anything, you are forcing yourself to meet a minimum threshold and chosing what the most efficient path is.What you're really complaining about is that SOE isn't providing you with an alternate path of advancement through heroic content that is as effecient as soloing. But that's not forcing you do do anything in the game. Technically you could hit level 80 with 200 APs strictly doing heroic content. It would take a long time due to the XP curve and AP conversion rate, but it is possible.As an aside, a simple way for them to address the AP issue in particular would be to award AXP for each heroic named you kill, reagardless of the number of times you kill it. Give a large amount of AXP for the first kill, and a reduced amount for subsequent kills, but still move the bar forward. That way, people could increase APs by repeating instances and clearing named in contested dungeons, and not be forced to go the solo route just to get their points up.

RafaelSmith

12-04-2008, 07:18 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's fine, if all you aspire to is T1 raids. Beyond that, you're not going to find many casual raids who are going to be able to move on to T2 and kill the Overking and Venril. Those are fights that require a degree of coordination that you're not generally going to find with people who raid together every once in a while, and where the lineup is constantly changing.</blockquote>Really?We're a casual guild and clear VP.It took us 11 months to do it, but we did it just fine.</blockquote>Aye as are we...still probably a month or two from being able to hit VP but to say its not doable by casual guilds is false.We are really looking forward to VS...should be a good lesson for us.

Yimway

12-04-2008, 07:22 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Whether I do soloquest solo or as a group, if I want to get to 80 and be functional, I'm forced to do the soloquest.</blockquote>What you're really complaining about is that SOE isn't providing you with an alternate path of advancement through heroic content that is as effecient as soloing. But that's not forcing you do do anything in the game. Technically you could hit level 80 with 200 APs strictly doing heroic content. It would take a long time due to the XP curve and AP conversion rate, but it is possible.</blockquote>Symantics.You can tell the same dribble to the solo players complaining about where to get the last 40 aa from. I'm sure they'll like killing 900,000 boars as much as I would have found killing 1 mil drolvarg in KC a viable means to max level/aa.

Kordran

12-04-2008, 07:25 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>We're a casual guild and clear VP.It took us 11 months to do it, but we did it just fine. </blockquote>/shrugYou and I have a different definition of what "casual raiding" means then. By the looks of your schedule and guild page, you raid 5 nights a week and have a core raid force (I would presume your "dedicated" and "officer" rank members). I wouldn't exactly call that casual, I'd call it typical. I see guilds like yours as the middle ground between casual, occasional raiding guilds and the hardcore guilds that maintain call lists and all the rest.

Kordran

12-04-2008, 07:32 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Symantics.You can tell the same dribble to the solo players complaining about where to get the last 40 aa from. I'm sure they'll like killing 900,000 boars as much as I would have found killing 1 mil drolvarg in KC a viable means to max level/aa.</blockquote>It's not semantics. Saying that you are forced to do something has a specific meaning, and in this case, you're just wrong. The game forces you to start with standard race and class combinations (e.g.: you cannot start out as an iksar paladin). The game forces you to run through the betrayal quest lines if you want to change to a non-standard combination (e.g.: to become an iksar paladin). The game forces you to choose an alignment, you cannot be neutral to all cities. The game does not force you to progress through the content any particular way. The path that you take is determined by your choices, based on your preferences.And I would say exactly the same thing to anyone who claimed that the game "forces" you to group, or "forces" you to raid. It is simply not true.

Yimway

12-04-2008, 07:32 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>/shrugYou and I have a different definition of what "casual raiding" means then. By the looks of your schedule and guild page, you raid 5 nights a week and have a core raid force (I would presume your "dedicated" and "officer" rank members). I wouldn't exactly call that casual, I'd call it typical. I see guilds like yours as the middle ground between casual, occasional raiding guilds and the hardcore guilds that maintain call lists and all the rest.</blockquote>To me there is exactly two words that seperates a casual guild from a raid/hardcore guild."Attendance Policy."As i said, we're a very different raid force from night to night, or week to week. Members become active and inactive as their lives allow them. The dedicated rank is the list of people that paricipated in over 60% of last months raids. But, I guess others would call organization the distinction between casual and hardcore.

Kordran

12-04-2008, 08:06 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>To me there is exactly two words that seperates a casual guild from a raid/hardcore guild."Attendance Policy."</blockquote>By that definition, my guild would be considered "hardcore", because raid attendance is mandatory (we don't have non-raiding members) unless there are extenuating circumstances and you can't get in-game. If someone is logged in on a raid night, and we need them, they don't have the option to go off and do some TSO instance; well, not if they want to stay in the guild.However, I don't consider us to be hardcore at all. There's no call lists, no one is ringing my cell at 3am if a contested pops. We don't make recruits camp contested or pay refundable deposits. We don't doghouse recruits that have a single bad night. We have a fairly liberal looting policy that allows even the newest recruits a chance at loot, as long as it's not something needed by a member. So I think we're pretty much middle-of-the-road, similar to you.

Yella

12-04-2008, 08:48 PM

As far as raiding is concerned, you are "hard core" if you field full raids on mostly consistent players and raid 4 or more days a week on a regular basis. If you have a consistent organized program, you are hardcore by definition. It is a description of playstyle, not progression status. A casual raiding guild is one that fields lower numbers, has inconsistent players and/or generally raids fewer than 4 days a week. Those folks generally "go with the flow" depending on who is online at the time and what content is feasible.

Full_Metal_Mage

12-04-2008, 09:12 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote> Solid communication and leadershiip is all it took.</blockquote>Two elements that are very scarce in the MMO universe.

Faenril

12-05-2008, 07:57 AM

<cite>Meridia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to remind the complainers that this expansion is supposed to last 1 year... Ppl keep asking for easymode instances, but let's imagine their wish is granted ... what will they do in a month from now when they got their complete shard armor set ? Quit and let the servers quiet for another 11 months ? Some content is too hard for you now ? Well, good news... take it as a challenge. You have 1 year left to beat it, why should you be able to clean everything on release day ? Work in ROK instances and easiest TSO instances to gear up. Get better at your class - sigh ! - learn who you can reliably group with and who you should not. Learn how to build a balanced group, suitable to target content, not a guard fury and 4 wizards pug...Adapt and overcome, stop asking for everything to be handed on a silver plate.</blockquote>my problem isnt gear, my problem is getting a pug coordinated to run it.till your run of the mill average idiot can run it flawlessly in an hour, im not interested.</blockquote>Well, by definition, pugs lack on coordination side. Some ppl just are not that good at the game, or do not put the time or the effort to gear up.But what can SOE do ? Dumb down the content ? Then all players who are decent and get steady groups by picking in their guild and friendlist will blast through the content and miss a real challenge.Well, there is already some content that is 100% pug-able: ROK instances and few first TSO instances. There is some harder content not really pug-able currently unless you get lucky and put 6 good players together by accident.I think it's just fine this way: this is a MMORPG, a social game. Those who develop regular relationship with other players through their friendlist or by joining a guild have an edge at clearing harder content and it's fine this way.There are pros, there are average players, and there are noobs in any MMO. The game should provide content for all kind of players, but all players can not clean all content and it's fine this way.Not all content should be cleared by PUGs, especially right after an xpac release.Could the average pug clear HOF when KOS was released, could the average pug clear Nizara at T7 ? What about Unrest or Castle MistMoore until late EOF ?No. And it's the way it's meant to be.

Yella

12-05-2008, 08:40 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meridia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to remind the complainers that this expansion is supposed to last 1 year... Ppl keep asking for easymode instances, but let's imagine their wish is granted ... what will they do in a month from now when they got their complete shard armor set ? Quit and let the servers quiet for another 11 months ? Some content is too hard for you now ? Well, good news... take it as a challenge. You have 1 year left to beat it, why should you be able to clean everything on release day ? Work in ROK instances and easiest TSO instances to gear up. Get better at your class - sigh ! - learn who you can reliably group with and who you should not. Learn how to build a balanced group, suitable to target content, not a guard fury and 4 wizards pug...Adapt and overcome, stop asking for everything to be handed on a silver plate.</blockquote>my problem isnt gear, my problem is getting a pug coordinated to run it.till your run of the mill average idiot can run it flawlessly in an hour, im not interested.</blockquote>Well, by definition, pugs lack on coordination side. Some ppl just are not that good at the game, or do not put the time or the effort to gear up.But what can SOE do ? Dumb down the content ? Then all players who are decent and get steady groups by picking in their guild and friendlist will blast through the content and miss a real challenge.Well, there is already some content that is 100% pug-able: ROK instances and few first TSO instances. There is some harder content not really pug-able currently unless you get lucky and put 6 good players together by accident.I think it's just fine this way: this is a MMORPG, a social game. Those who develop regular relationship with other players through their friendlist or by joining a guild have an edge at clearing harder content and it's fine this way.There are pros, there are average players, and there are noobs in any MMO. The game should provide content for all kind of players, but all players can not clean all content and it's fine this way.Not all content should be cleared by PUGs, especially right after an xpac release.Could the average pug clear HOF when KOS was released, could the average pug clear Nizara at T7 ? What about Unrest or Castle MistMoore until late EOF ?No. And it's the way it's meant to be.</blockquote>You are not reading what he saying. He is not talking about the hardest instances, he is talking about the easiest ones.The issue is that the easiest ones are too hard, not that the hardest ones are too hard.

Faenril

12-05-2008, 09:02 AM

<cite>Yella wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meridia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to remind the complainers that this expansion is supposed to last 1 year... Ppl keep asking for easymode instances, but let's imagine their wish is granted ... what will they do in a month from now when they got their complete shard armor set ? Quit and let the servers quiet for another 11 months ? Some content is too hard for you now ? Well, good news... take it as a challenge. You have 1 year left to beat it, why should you be able to clean everything on release day ? Work in ROK instances and easiest TSO instances to gear up. Get better at your class - sigh ! - learn who you can reliably group with and who you should not. Learn how to build a balanced group, suitable to target content, not a guard fury and 4 wizards pug...Adapt and overcome, stop asking for everything to be handed on a silver plate.</blockquote>my problem isnt gear, my problem is getting a pug coordinated to run it.till your run of the mill average idiot can run it flawlessly in an hour, im not interested.</blockquote>Well, by definition, pugs lack on coordination side. Some ppl just are not that good at the game, or do not put the time or the effort to gear up.But what can SOE do ? Dumb down the content ? Then all players who are decent and get steady groups by picking in their guild and friendlist will blast through the content and miss a real challenge.Well, there is already some content that is 100% pug-able: ROK instances and few first TSO instances. There is some harder content not really pug-able currently unless you get lucky and put 6 good players together by accident.I think it's just fine this way: this is a MMORPG, a social game. Those who develop regular relationship with other players through their friendlist or by joining a guild have an edge at clearing harder content and it's fine this way.There are pros, there are average players, and there are noobs in any MMO. The game should provide content for all kind of players, but all players can not clean all content and it's fine this way.Not all content should be cleared by PUGs, especially right after an xpac release.Could the average pug clear HOF when KOS was released, could the average pug clear Nizara at T7 ? What about Unrest or Castle MistMoore until late EOF ?No. And it's the way it's meant to be.</blockquote>You are not reading what he saying. He is not talking about the hardest instances, he is talking about the easiest ones.The issue is that the easiest ones are too hard, not that the hardest ones are too hard.</blockquote>My illy hit 80 last sunday. I went in Scion of Ice in a pug, with a craptastic tank. Yes we died several times but we did clear it. The easiest TSO instances are just fine. It is very possible to clear them unless you get very unlucky or get a terrible group setup.Regardless of the difficulty you will always be able to find 6 morons that can't clear the stuff. I'm pretty sure some ppl thought nest of the great egg was too hard at T7 days.

Kendricke

12-05-2008, 11:14 AM

<cite>Yella wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you have a consistent organized program, you are hardcore by definition.</blockquote>Please link to where you found this particular definition. I couldn't find it in Webster's or Random House.

liveja

12-05-2008, 11:28 AM

<cite>Yella wrote:</cite><blockquote>The issue is that the easiest ones are too hard</blockquote>"Too hard" for whom, precisely? Please don't tell me "too hard for casual players", unless you're fully prepared to finally, once & for all, with no slipperiness, define the term "casual player."You attempted, earlier in this thread, to define "raid players" as being "hard core" if they have a "consistent" program, i.e., they raid every night, attendance is mandatory, & so forth. But what about people like me, who never raid? I admit that I play a lot, probably 3-4 hours a day, but I'm not sure how that alone would make me "hardcore."Is it possible that there is entirely too much labeling & defining of people being done here, & that most of that labeling & defining is based on personal motives & agendas, with very little to do with actual reality? These "casual" & "hardcore" buzz-terms have been tossed about for YEARS now, but from where I'm sitting, they have precious little actual meaning, & as such are virtually useless for argument.Maybe what we really need to "re-define", is why we keep seeing a "need" to define anyone at all.

RafaelSmith

12-05-2008, 11:57 AM

<cite>Yella wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are not reading what he saying. He is not talking about the hardest instances, he is talking about the easiest ones.The issue is that the easiest ones are too hard, not that the hardest ones are too hard.</blockquote>The TSO instances are just fine and not too hard.I know for a fact that at least 4 of the "easiest" TSO instances can be done by a good group in mostly MC/RoK legendary gear.I really hope the devs do not nerf the dificulty of these instances...the challenge is just fine and makes them fun.So the real issue is that the instances are too hard for BAD groups/players.

RafaelSmith

12-05-2008, 12:00 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yella wrote:</cite><blockquote>The issue is that the easiest ones are too hard</blockquote>"Too hard" for whom, precisely? Please don't tell me "too hard for casual players", unless you're fully prepared to finally, once & for all, with no slipperiness, define the term "casual player."You attempted, earlier in this thread, to define "raid players" as being "hard core" if they have a "consistent" program, i.e., they raid every night, attendance is mandatory, & so forth. But what about people like me, who never raid? I admit that I play a lot, probably 3-4 hours a day, but I'm not sure how that alone would make me "hardcore."Is it possible that there is entirely too much labeling & defining of people being done here, & that most of that labeling & defining is based on personal motives & agendas, with very little to do with actual reality? These "casual" & "hardcore" buzz-terms have been tossed about for YEARS now, but from where I'm sitting, they have precious little actual meaning, & as such are virtually useless for argument.Maybe what we really need to "re-define", is why we keep seeing a "need" to define anyone at all.</blockquote>Agreed.Personally I only use two labels to descibe playeres. Those that like a challenge and those that do not. Has nothing to do with being casual or hardcore. Ive met some really good "casual" players and some really crappy "hardcore" players.I like a challenge...If I come across a challenge I or my group cannot overcome...we do something else and try to gear/prepare ourselves so we can come back and meat that challenge. I do not come here and cry that things are too hard. Nothing in this game..or expansion is "too hard".

Faenril

12-05-2008, 12:42 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yella wrote:</cite><blockquote>The issue is that the easiest ones are too hard</blockquote>"Too hard" for whom, precisely? Please don't tell me "too hard for casual players", unless you're fully prepared to finally, once & for all, with no slipperiness, define the term "casual player."You attempted, earlier in this thread, to define "raid players" as being "hard core" if they have a "consistent" program, i.e., they raid every night, attendance is mandatory, & so forth. But what about people like me, who never raid? I admit that I play a lot, probably 3-4 hours a day, but I'm not sure how that alone would make me "hardcore."Is it possible that there is entirely too much labeling & defining of people being done here, & that most of that labeling & defining is based on personal motives & agendas, with very little to do with actual reality? These "casual" & "hardcore" buzz-terms have been tossed about for YEARS now, but from where I'm sitting, they have precious little actual meaning, & as such are virtually useless for argument.Maybe what we really need to "re-define", is why we keep seeing a "need" to define anyone at all.</blockquote>Agreed.Personally I only use two labels to descibe playeres. Those that like a challenge and those that do not. Has nothing to do with being casual or hardcore. Ive met some really good "casual" players and some really crappy "hardcore" players.I like a challenge...If I come across a challenge I or my group cannot overcome...we do something else and try to gear/prepare ourselves so we can come back and meat that challenge. I do not come here and cry that things are too hard. Nothing in this game..or expansion is "too hard".</blockquote>Indeed. Regarding the casual vs hardcore thing...I've seen new recruits join our raid force with barely any raid experience outperform seasoned players with months of farming behind them.Understanding game mechanics, making smart gear choices (plenty of good stuff available out of raid instances), using proper spell order, paying attention to what your groupmates/raidmates are doing and adapting, have nothing to do with how much time you spend in front of your computer.Yes playing a lot helps in getting good gear, but it never made a good player from a scrub.

ArivenGemini

12-05-2008, 01:27 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yella wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are not reading what he saying. He is not talking about the hardest instances, he is talking about the easiest ones.The issue is that the easiest ones are too hard, not that the hardest ones are too hard.</blockquote>The TSO instances are just fine and not too hard.I know for a fact that at least 4 of the "easiest" TSO instances can be done by a good group in mostly MC/RoK legendary gear.I really hope the devs do not nerf the dificulty of these instances...the challenge is just fine and makes them fun.So the real issue is that the instances are too hard for BAD groups/players.</blockquote>Since the level didnt go up, I prefer that the new content is harder... this gives us a place to go to improve our skills and not just blow through the content.. no increase in difficulty would lead to stagnation, and people getting bored faster.

Katelei

12-05-2008, 02:07 PM

<cite>ArivenGemini wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yella wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are not reading what he saying. He is not talking about the hardest instances, he is talking about the easiest ones.The issue is that the easiest ones are too hard, not that the hardest ones are too hard.</blockquote>The TSO instances are just fine and not too hard.I know for a fact that at least 4 of the "easiest" TSO instances can be done by a good group in mostly MC/RoK legendary gear.I really hope the devs do not nerf the dificulty of these instances...the challenge is just fine and makes them fun.So the real issue is that the instances are too hard for BAD groups/players.</blockquote>Since the level didnt go up, I prefer that the new content is harder... this gives us a place to go to improve our skills and not just blow through the content.. no increase in difficulty would lead to stagnation, and people getting bored faster.</blockquote>Exactly, well said.

RafaelSmith

12-05-2008, 02:20 PM

<cite>ArivenGemini wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since the level didnt go up, I prefer that the new content is harder... this gives us a place to go to improve our skills and not just blow through the content.. no increase in difficulty would lead to stagnation, and people getting bored faster.</blockquote>Exactly....And although the new content is harder...its not as impossible as people are exaggerating it to be...even for average geared people.

Bratface

12-05-2008, 02:28 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nice jab at raiders but they are innocent in this</blockquote>Not THAT innocent. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Although the devs tested the TSO dungeons in legendary, most of the Beta testers were full fabled/mythical and for the last month of Beta, most groups were "looking for mythical copied X,Y,Z".</blockquote>QFE!In beta the devs said that they ran these instances with the BEST legendary gear from RoK zones and ad3 spells.Hardly the yardstick to measure everyone by since it actually fits only a very few players, most players don't have a full set of the best legendary gear yet that is what they scaled it to. Especially comical since (some) raiders complain that some of the legendary gear is better than the raid gear. Either way, they scaled it to high standards of gear and they said so in beta.

liveja

12-05-2008, 02:33 PM

<cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote>In beta the devs said that they ran these instances with the BEST legendary gear from RoK zones and ad3 spells.Hardly the yardstick to measure everyone by since it actually fits only a very few players</blockquote>How do YOU know how many players fit that standard? Would you care to share your unrefutable numbers with the rest of us?& just so you know, I think that by level 80 it is perfectly acceptable to expect that a competent player has gone to the effort of upgrading all his/her spells to Adept 3, has done the faction lines & can obtain legendary gear that way, & has attempted sufficient instance runs to get geared up. If they're not doing those things ... what ARE they doing???

RafaelSmith

12-05-2008, 02:43 PM

Gnova

12-05-2008, 03:43 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I want to group doing heroic content and level 1-80 with 160 aa when I ding 80.How exactly in eq2 do I do that? You simply can not do it, if you run heroic content, your going to ding 80 with about 50aa at best. You are virtualy forced to soloquest.</blockquote>Remove the requirement for heroic content only, and you can group from 1-80 and have around 160 APs. You just need to group together doing the soloable quest lines; because those lines can be soloed doesn't mean they have to be soloed. The game won't refuse to give you XP or AP if you're grouped with someone else. The only wrinkle is that you can end up backtracking and duplicating some steps if the people you're grouped are at different stages of the quest lines (something, by the way, that exists with heroic quest lines as well). Point of fact, when RoK was released last year, I duoed and trioed the Kunark quests; while not challenging, it was fun to just run through them with friends and banter over vent while farming this or that mob, get our updates and move along. Honestly, the the sheer number of quests that gets firehosed on you with Kunark, I'm glad most of them were brainless. Like another poster here said, I get all the challenge I want from raiding. Everything else is my "down time".Regardless, you are not forced to do anything in this game, virtually or otherwise. You have choices, and while certain choices may not be as efficient as others, or conform to a min/max playstyle, they are indeed choices.</blockquote>Okay, you are not physically chained to your computer chair with your join group button greyed out but if you wish to play the game with any sort of challenge and hit level 80 with a reasonable number of AAs then yes you are forced to solo. Anyone that says otherwise is kidding themselves. It is impossible to imagine having a group of people to progress through solo questlines together every night, night after night. There is zero challenge in doing solo questlines in a group."Mary Jane needs is going to a movie tonight with her boyfriend so can't play. Oh well, guess none of us can because we don't want to get our quest progression our of sync."The only thing more boring then soloing is doing solo questlines with more then two people. Oh wait, even worse is doing solo questlines with more then two people if you are not actually progressing your quest chains because you are backtracking.I will say straight out that I hate solo questing but if I look in my journal on my main character I have nearly 1000 quests completed. I spent days and days going back to old grey content and doing solo questlines for AAs in order to hit 140. Give me 5-10% of a AA for completing a level cap group instance and I would never kill 10 rats, or go talk to billijoebob about the thingamajig again. I have a lot of alt characters that I would love to play and level but I refuse to soloquest them to cap and that is the only feasible way to level a character to cap if you don't want to be AA deprived, and hopelessly gimped, when you arrive.

Kigneer

12-05-2008, 04:47 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>How do YOU know how many players fit that standard?</blockquote>Takes nothing more than grouping in PuGs for a clue. Let's see...showing up without food and drink (so true with high DPS characters); in trash gear; and still believing the fastest weapons kill better.That's the average player in this game.Almost no one I see, especially below level 62, is in total MC or Legendary gear. At 52 (where Shadows begins), most are still in treasured from RoV and RE. Even at 72, I still see players in legendary trash gear (worse stats than T8 MC).The instances should've been scaled to average players in this game -- not in mythical, fabled, nor level 78+ Legendary with good 4 stats. It's a prescription for complaints and folks throwing up their hands in frustration, as it takes FOREVER to get good gear despite farming the zones for them.

Bratface

12-05-2008, 04:59 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote>In beta the devs said that they ran these instances with the BEST legendary gear from RoK zones and ad3 spells.Hardly the yardstick to measure everyone by since it actually fits only a very few players</blockquote>How do YOU know how many players fit that standard? Would you care to share your unrefutable numbers with the rest of us?& just so you know, I think that by level 80 it is perfectly acceptable to expect that a competent player has gone to the effort of upgrading all his/her spells to Adept 3, has done the faction lines & can obtain legendary gear that way, & has attempted sufficient instance runs to get geared up. If they're not doing those things ... what ARE they doing???</blockquote>Look around you, how many people fit the category of having the absolute best legendary gear from RoK?You are twisting my words again, I agree there is no reason we shouldn't have all ad3 spells, no problem there but I do disagree with your implied statement that most people are geared in a set of the best legendary gear, you have to know that isn't true if you have any experience in this game.I stated what the dev said in beta, that is the standard that they set and I do not believe for one minute that people geared in the best gear from RoK are the "average" player, they are the extreme end of the spectrum just slighty before raiders.And just so you know, most people don't ascribe to your dictates on what you "expect" from other players, you don't have any say in what we all do, we all play differently and nothing you can say will change that. I fail to see why you feel the right to try to impose your expectation on other players, you are not special and you are not in charge, sorry.On a personal note, I am thinking you are having a bad week? Everywhere I look I see you arguing with people over stuff that is silly, I hope it gets better soon.Sincerely....

Yimway

12-05-2008, 04:59 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Almost no one I see, especially below level 62, is in total MC or Legendary gear. At 52 (where Shadows begins), most are still in treasured from RoV and RE. Even at 72, I still see players in legendary trash gear (worse stats than T8 MC).</blockquote>You only need quest reward treasured and app1's to soloquest to 80. Why spend resources before 72?

Gnova

12-05-2008, 06:13 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>How do YOU know how many players fit that standard?</blockquote>Takes nothing more than grouping in PuGs for a clue. Let's see...showing up without food and drink (so true with high DPS characters); in trash gear; and still believing the fastest weapons kill better.That's the average player in this game.Almost no one I see, especially below level 62, is in total MC or Legendary gear. At 52 (where Shadows begins), most are still in treasured from RoV and RE. Even at 72, I still see players in legendary trash gear (worse stats than T8 MC).The instances should've been scaled to average players in this game -- not in mythical, fabled, nor level 78+ Legendary with good 4 stats. It's a prescription for complaints and folks throwing up their hands in frustration, as it takes FOREVER to get good gear despite farming the zones for them.</blockquote>There is plenty of content in the game for the players you described.All the DoF instances, all the KoS instances, all the EoF instances, and all the RoK instances.If this "average playerbase" are geared how you describe then they have not spent much time in these zones so they will still be new and shiny to them. To me it is akin to a guild full of newly level 80 players complaining that they can't complete the new raid zones.Gear progression has entered the group game, once people realize this they will be fine.

Zhern

12-05-2008, 06:44 PM

Just why couldn’t have SOE made just one dungeon for soloers, one for small groups, one for full groups and the rest for raiders. And that goes for ROK, why didn’t they just add one section for soloers, one for small groups, etc. Its like that they made one expansion for one type of play and not the whole big group.It could have been diced up.

Kordran

12-05-2008, 07:01 PM

<cite>Zhern wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just why couldn’t have SOE made just one dungeon for soloers, one for small groups, one for full groups and the rest for raiders. And that goes for ROK, why didn’t they just add one section for soloers, one for small groups, etc. Its like that they made one expansion for one type of play and not the whole big group.It could have been diced up.</blockquote>For soloers, that's slippery slope of issues. If you create a dungeon, or instance, that is geared towards soloers and it has equivalent rewards to heroic instances then you'll find all players taking the path of least resistance. If the rewards are scaled down sufficiently so that players don't prefer it over heroic instances, then few people will actually bother with it. Splitpaw and the Harclave instance is a perfect example of this in action.For small groups, that would be something more manageable, if they had designed instances to scale according to the number of group members from the start. Fewer members would mean weaker mobs, but lower chance that an ornate would drop, and a much lower chance that an exquisite would drop. As more members join the group, the mobs become more difficult but the chance of good loot goes up, with a full group guaranteeing at least an ornate chest, and a higher chance at an exquisite (basically what you have now in the TSO instances). Naturally they'd also need to have some system in place to prevent players from "gaming" the encounters (people dropping in and out of groups); there's several ways they could do that. Regardless, the chances of that kind of system being implement is not very high, I'd imagine.

wolfIII

12-05-2008, 07:21 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zhern wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just why couldn’t have SOE made just one dungeon for soloers, one for small groups, one for full groups and the rest for raiders. And that goes for ROK, why didn’t they just add one section for soloers, one for small groups, etc. Its like that they made one expansion for one type of play and not the whole big group.It could have been diced up.</blockquote>For soloers, that's slippery slope of issues. If you create a dungeon, or instance, that is geared towards soloers and it has equivalent rewards to heroic instances then you'll find all players taking the path of least resistance. If the rewards are scaled down sufficiently so that players don't prefer it over heroic instances, then few people will actually bother with it. Splitpaw and the Harclave instance is a perfect example of this in action.For small groups, that would be something more manageable, if they had designed instances to scale according to the number of group members from the start. Fewer members would mean weaker mobs, but lower chance that an ornate would drop, and a much lower chance that an exquisite would drop. As more members join the group, the mobs become more difficult but the chance of good loot goes up, with a full group guaranteeing at least an ornate chest, and a higher chance at an exquisite (basically what you have now in the TSO instances). Naturally they'd also need to have some system in place to prevent players from "gaming" the encounters (people dropping in and out of groups); there's several ways they could do that. Regardless, the chances of that kind of system being implement is not very high, I'd imagine.</blockquote>I believe that this is the only expansion that hasn't included contested dungeons. These normaly scale from easy to hard and are great for duo's, boxers and small groups. If these had been included there wouldn't have been a problem.Contested nameds usually drop tradeable loot too, which would have solved other issues with void shards and made them more acceptable.

Giland

12-05-2008, 07:33 PM

Are we looking to redefine how many people are in a group, or what a group makeup is?Currently, it is looking like 1 tank, 2 healers of different types, 1 mezzer/utility/dps, 2 dps.A group of this makeup is going to outperform a group of 3 tanks, 2 healers of same type, 1 dps.Can group B, using mastercrafted (72) armor and adept 3s finish the easier zones? I think it is really going to depend on their skill and some lucky breaks. They can probably kill a named or 3, but finishing might be on the tougher side. Earning shards might prove on the difficult side if they can't kill the boss. Of course, 3 of them could ditch their other 3 friends, find some pickups and progress through the zones until they get enough shards to buy gear before regrouping with their friends, but who wants to do that? After all, the expansion is about grouping, and grouping with friends is much better than complete strangers all the time.Or are they saying that only optimal groups can finish the content ?

bryldan

12-05-2008, 07:39 PM

<cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote>In beta the devs said that they ran these instances with the BEST legendary gear from RoK zones and ad3 spells.Hardly the yardstick to measure everyone by since it actually fits only a very few players</blockquote>How do YOU know how many players fit that standard? Would you care to share your unrefutable numbers with the rest of us?& just so you know, I think that by level 80 it is perfectly acceptable to expect that a competent player has gone to the effort of upgrading all his/her spells to Adept 3, has done the faction lines & can obtain legendary gear that way, & has attempted sufficient instance runs to get geared up. If they're not doing those things ... what ARE they doing???</blockquote>Look around you, how many people fit the category of having the absolute best legendary gear from RoK?You are twisting my words again, I agree there is no reason we shouldn't have all ad3 spells, no problem there but I do disagree with your implied statement that most people are geared in a set of the best legendary gear, you have to know that isn't true if you have any experience in this game.I stated what the dev said in beta, that is the standard that they set and I do not believe for one minute that people geared in the best gear from RoK are the "average" player, they are the extreme end of the spectrum just slighty before raiders.And just so you know, most people don't ascribe to your dictates on what you "expect" from other players, you don't have any say in what we all do, we all play differently and nothing you can say will change that. I fail to see why you feel the right to try to impose your expectation on other players, you are not special and you are not in charge, sorry.On a personal note, I am thinking you are having a bad week? Everywhere I look I see you arguing with people over stuff that is silly, I hope it gets better soon.Sincerely....</blockquote>Very true you stated what the dev sayed BUT you also have to break it down because he said he completed ALL of the instances in MC/adept 3 spells not just the easy ones but that would include the HARD ones. I say that is very important to point out to YOU because you are not understanding the ramifications of that statement in your delusional thoughts about this expac being too hard because you are not putting time into it. If he is doing the hard ones with that old gear then he is blowing thru the easy ones with ease and it could be done with MUCH less. I have done them and there is a pretty big gap between hard and easy. So what that means is that those ppl that are by YOUR definition casual could do the easy ones with the gear (but i will say this now it has NOTHING i mean NOTHING to do with gear for most of these instances) that they have. The problem with YOU and the OTHERS that are complaining about is that they cannot go afk or put on auto attack during these fights with boses so hence you want them nerfed so that it is possible to take as lil as possible of brain power to complete.

Felshades

12-06-2008, 12:24 AM

<cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yella wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meridia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faenril@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to remind the complainers that this expansion is supposed to last 1 year... Ppl keep asking for easymode instances, but let's imagine their wish is granted ... what will they do in a month from now when they got their complete shard armor set ? Quit and let the servers quiet for another 11 months ? Some content is too hard for you now ? Well, good news... take it as a challenge. You have 1 year left to beat it, why should you be able to clean everything on release day ? Work in ROK instances and easiest TSO instances to gear up. Get better at your class - sigh ! - learn who you can reliably group with and who you should not. Learn how to build a balanced group, suitable to target content, not a guard fury and 4 wizards pug...Adapt and overcome, stop asking for everything to be handed on a silver plate.</blockquote>my problem isnt gear, my problem is getting a pug coordinated to run it.till your run of the mill average idiot can run it flawlessly in an hour, im not interested.</blockquote>Well, by definition, pugs lack on coordination side. Some ppl just are not that good at the game, or do not put the time or the effort to gear up.But what can SOE do ? Dumb down the content ? Then all players who are decent and get steady groups by picking in their guild and friendlist will blast through the content and miss a real challenge.Well, there is already some content that is 100% pug-able: ROK instances and few first TSO instances. There is some harder content not really pug-able currently unless you get lucky and put 6 good players together by accident.I think it's just fine this way: this is a MMORPG, a social game. Those who develop regular relationship with other players through their friendlist or by joining a guild have an edge at clearing harder content and it's fine this way.There are pros, there are average players, and there are noobs in any MMO. The game should provide content for all kind of players, but all players can not clean all content and it's fine this way.Not all content should be cleared by PUGs, especially right after an xpac release.Could the average pug clear HOF when KOS was released, could the average pug clear Nizara at T7 ? What about Unrest or Castle MistMoore until late EOF ?No. And it's the way it's meant to be.</blockquote>You are not reading what he saying. He is not talking about the hardest instances, he is talking about the easiest ones.The issue is that the easiest ones are too hard, not that the hardest ones are too hard.</blockquote>My illy hit 80 last sunday. I went in Scion of Ice in a pug, with a craptastic tank. Yes we died several times but we did clear it. The easiest TSO instances are just fine. It is very possible to clear them unless you get very unlucky or get a terrible group setup.Regardless of the difficulty you will always be able to find 6 morons that can't clear the stuff. I'm pretty sure some ppl thought nest of the great egg was too hard at T7 days.</blockquote>someone gets it. someone else doesnt.the easiest instances should take me an hour in crudtastic pug. they do not currently. fix plz.

Kigneer

12-06-2008, 01:01 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fewer members would mean weaker mobs, but lower chance that an ornate would drop, and a much lower chance that an exquisite would drop. As more members join the group, the mobs become more difficult but the chance of good loot goes up, with a full group guaranteeing at least an ornate chest, and a higher chance at an exquisite (basically what you have now in the TSO instances).</blockquote>In other words, punish people for a problem not their own, but the game mechanics and direction of EQ2.EQ2 isn't WoW. EQ2 isn't Counterstrike. It's a good game that has a low population, with LFG spam 24/7. But when you do offer to join a group (taking time away from your persuits), you find a team of level 80 alts who want to just kill everything in the dungeon (absolutely no questing, just a FPS deathmatch of things like Wizzy tanks).I'm not paying over $30/mon to waste time running through dungeons just for named trash. Want the full experience, not leveling with a bunch of ADHD types "because EQ2 is about grouping and raiding". No. Times have changed and groupers and raiders have to learn that casual gaming is the future, and that means more time limited and/or solo encounters.Personally, I'd prefer longer quests for solo adventuring (akin to signature quests) that would compensate for the lack of having 6 to 24 players in a group/raid. If a soloer wants to put the time in to get the gear, no one should claim that it wasn't difficult -- as certainly the ADHD types aren't doing the Heritage, let alone the tedious Signature quests.Soloers can have great fabled and mythical gear IF the devs forked the mechanics to provide it. Those wanting a quicker way to get it can group/raid, but those who can't due to 1001 reasons, can also enjoy getting good gear if they took many hours or days questing, too.

Felshades

12-06-2008, 01:29 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fewer members would mean weaker mobs, but lower chance that an ornate would drop, and a much lower chance that an exquisite would drop. As more members join the group, the mobs become more difficult but the chance of good loot goes up, with a full group guaranteeing at least an ornate chest, and a higher chance at an exquisite (basically what you have now in the TSO instances).</blockquote>In other words, punish people for a problem not their own, but the game mechanics and direction of EQ2.EQ2 isn't WoW. EQ2 isn't Counterstrike. It's a good game that has a low population, with LFG spam 24/7. But when you do offer to join a group (taking time away from your persuits), you find a team of level 80 alts who want to just kill everything in the dungeon (absolutely no questing, just a FPS deathmatch of things like Wizzy tanks).I'm not paying over $30/mon to waste time running through dungeons just for named trash. Want the full experience, not leveling with a bunch of ADHD types "because EQ2 is about grouping and raiding". No. Times have changed and groupers and raiders have to learn that casual gaming is the future, and that means more time limited and/or solo encounters.Personally, I'd prefer longer quests for solo adventuring (akin to signature quests) that would compensate for the lack of having 6 to 24 players in a group/raid. If a soloer wants to put the time in to get the gear, no one should claim that it wasn't difficult -- as certainly the ADHD types aren't doing the Heritage, let alone the tedious Signature quests.Soloers can have great fabled and mythical gear IF the devs forked the mechanics to provide it. Those wanting a quicker way to get it can group/raid, but those who can't due to 1001 reasons, can also enjoy getting good gear if they took many hours or days questing, too.</blockquote>i dont want solo quests for awesome gear.. i'd rather get them out of the instances. i just want the instances to be something the dumb monkey pugs i get can do. which currently tso isnt.

Lleren

12-06-2008, 01:39 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fewer members would mean weaker mobs, but lower chance that an ornate would drop, and a much lower chance that an exquisite would drop. As more members join the group, the mobs become more difficult but the chance of good loot goes up, with a full group guaranteeing at least an ornate chest, and a higher chance at an exquisite (basically what you have now in the TSO instances).</blockquote>In other words, punish people for a problem not their own, but the game mechanics and direction of EQ2.EQ2 isn't WoW. EQ2 isn't Counterstrike. It's a good game that has a low population, with LFG spam 24/7. But when you do offer to join a group (taking time away from your persuits), you find a team of level 80 alts who want to just kill everything in the dungeon (absolutely no questing, just a FPS deathmatch of things like Wizzy tanks).I'm not paying over $30/mon to waste time running through dungeons just for named trash. Want the full experience, not leveling with a bunch of ADHD types "because EQ2 is about grouping and raiding". No. Times have changed and groupers and raiders have to learn that casual gaming is the future, and that means more time limited and/or solo encounters.Personally, I'd prefer longer quests for solo adventuring (akin to signature quests) that would compensate for the lack of having 6 to 24 players in a group/raid. If a soloer wants to put the time in to get the gear, no one should claim that it wasn't difficult -- as certainly the ADHD types aren't doing the Heritage, let alone the tedious Signature quests.Soloers can have great fabled and mythical gear IF the devs forked the mechanics to provide it. Those wanting a quicker way to get it can group/raid, but those who can't due to 1001 reasons, can also enjoy getting good gear if they took many hours or days questing, too.</blockquote>How many hours are enough difficulty to compensate for each piece, 50 , 100, 200? Raiders can solo as well, so can serious groupers, casual raiders the whole gamut. I'd love to see more questlines that give a fabled reward that can be soloed, but the raiders will complete them as well if the gear is worthwhile. Some folks will even run through that quest grouped and you'll be competeing with them for the mobs you need. The last one that was put in I believe had several mobs on 2 hour respawn timers.

Spyderbite

12-06-2008, 01:57 AM

Kordran

12-06-2008, 07:39 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>In other words, punish people for a problem not their own, but the game mechanics and direction of EQ2....Soloers can have great fabled and mythical gear IF the devs forked the mechanics to provide it. Those wanting a quicker way to get it can group/raid, but those who can't due to 1001 reasons, can also enjoy getting good gear if they took many hours or days questing, too.</blockquote>First, that would completely skew the risk/reward balance in the game. With increased difficulty -- and requiring cooperation between multiple players is a factor in that -- comes greater rewards. I enjoy soloing too, I find it can be a relaxing form of downtime in the game. But do I think that soloers should have alternate paths to get all of the same gear that players who group and raid do? Not by a long shot. Soloing is a choice, just as grouping and raiding is and those choices have both benefits and consequences.I'm in what I'd call a serious raiding guild (I personally hate the "hardcore" label, but it's probably what a lot of other folks would call us). The benefit is that I get to experience the most challenging content in the game, and have the opportunity to get the best rewards; the consequence is that I devote most of my game time to my guild and guildmates in one form or another. It's not a negative, they're all great people and I love playing the game with them. But just "going off and doing my own thing" isn't really an option most of the time. There are things that need doing, and people who need my help doing them, so that's what I do.On the other hand, the benefits for someone who solos is that they complete control over their game play, they're not obligated to anyone other than themselves and their schedule is completely their own. They can take breaks when they want, they can do what they want and they don't need to do anything they don't want to do, when they want to do it. The consequence is, however, that they will only experience some of the content, and it won't yield the kinds of rewards that you'll find with more challenging content. For soloers, they can create their own artificial challenges (for example, maintaining a certain KvD ratio) but solo content is pretty simplistic. So we're back to that concept of risk vs. reward.The thing is, those soloers who want access to the same gear that players who group and raid -- even so far as wanting a solo path to get their mythical -- is they're basically asking to be able to trivialize their own content. There is very little challenge to the solo content for someone who is in mastercrafted gear and adept 3s. There's is absolutely ZERO challenge to the solo content for someone who is in full fabled, masters and their mythical. Soloers asking for raid gear are, in effect, asking for the ability to nerf their preferred content into oblivion. I just don't understand the motivation, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. All it would do is guarantee they'd be bored out of their mind in short order, declare that the game was "too easy" and quit. What's the logic in SOE supporting that?

bryldan

12-06-2008, 09:23 AM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>In other words, punish people for a problem not their own, but the game mechanics and direction of EQ2....Soloers can have great fabled and mythical gear IF the devs forked the mechanics to provide it. Those wanting a quicker way to get it can group/raid, but those who can't due to 1001 reasons, can also enjoy getting good gear if they took many hours or days questing, too.</blockquote>First, that would completely skew the risk/reward balance in the game. With increased difficulty -- and requiring cooperation between multiple players is a factor in that -- comes greater rewards. I enjoy soloing too, I find it can be a relaxing form of downtime in the game. But do I think that soloers should have alternate paths to get all of the same gear that players who group and raid do? Not by a long shot. Soloing is a choice, just as grouping and raiding is and those choices have both benefits and consequences.I'm in what I'd call a serious raiding guild (I personally hate the "hardcore" label, but it's probably what a lot of other folks would call us). The benefit is that I get to experience the most challenging content in the game, and have the opportunity to get the best rewards; the consequence is that I devote most of my game time to my guild and guildmates in one form or another. It's not a negative, they're all great people and I love playing the game with them. But just "going off and doing my own thing" isn't really an option most of the time. There are things that need doing, and people who need my help doing them, so that's what I do.On the other hand, the benefits for someone who solos is that they complete control over their game play, they're not obligated to anyone other than themselves and their schedule is completely their own. They can take breaks when they want, they can do what they want and they don't need to do anything they don't want to do, when they want to do it. The consequence is, however, that they will only experience some of the content, and it won't yield the kinds of rewards that you'll find with more challenging content. For soloers, they can create their own artificial challenges (for example, maintaining a certain KvD ratio) but solo content is pretty simplistic. So we're back to that concept of risk vs. reward.The thing is, those soloers who want access to the same gear that players who group and raid -- even so far as wanting a solo path to get their mythical -- is they're basically asking to be able to trivialize their own content. There is very little challenge to the solo content for someone who is in mastercrafted gear and adept 3s. There's is absolutely ZERO challenge to the solo content for someone who is in full fabled, masters and their mythical. Soloers asking for raid gear are, in effect, asking for the ability to nerf their preferred content into oblivion. I just don't understand the motivation, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. All it would do is guarantee they'd be bored out of their mind in short order, declare that the game was "too easy" and quit. What's the logic in SOE supporting that?</blockquote>Good post and I agree. Truth be told if they EVER put something in the game to be able to solo to get your mythical i would litterally camp whatever named mobs they need as much as humanly possible because I feel that they should not get a cheap way into getting it when I had to go thru the proper way.

Felshades

12-06-2008, 11:39 AM

<cite>bryldan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>In other words, punish people for a problem not their own, but the game mechanics and direction of EQ2....Soloers can have great fabled and mythical gear IF the devs forked the mechanics to provide it. Those wanting a quicker way to get it can group/raid, but those who can't due to 1001 reasons, can also enjoy getting good gear if they took many hours or days questing, too.</blockquote>First, that would completely skew the risk/reward balance in the game. With increased difficulty -- and requiring cooperation between multiple players is a factor in that -- comes greater rewards. I enjoy soloing too, I find it can be a relaxing form of downtime in the game. But do I think that soloers should have alternate paths to get all of the same gear that players who group and raid do? Not by a long shot. Soloing is a choice, just as grouping and raiding is and those choices have both benefits and consequences.I'm in what I'd call a serious raiding guild (I personally hate the "hardcore" label, but it's probably what a lot of other folks would call us). The benefit is that I get to experience the most challenging content in the game, and have the opportunity to get the best rewards; the consequence is that I devote most of my game time to my guild and guildmates in one form or another. It's not a negative, they're all great people and I love playing the game with them. But just "going off and doing my own thing" isn't really an option most of the time. There are things that need doing, and people who need my help doing them, so that's what I do.On the other hand, the benefits for someone who solos is that they complete control over their game play, they're not obligated to anyone other than themselves and their schedule is completely their own. They can take breaks when they want, they can do what they want and they don't need to do anything they don't want to do, when they want to do it. The consequence is, however, that they will only experience some of the content, and it won't yield the kinds of rewards that you'll find with more challenging content. For soloers, they can create their own artificial challenges (for example, maintaining a certain KvD ratio) but solo content is pretty simplistic. So we're back to that concept of risk vs. reward.The thing is, those soloers who want access to the same gear that players who group and raid -- even so far as wanting a solo path to get their mythical -- is they're basically asking to be able to trivialize their own content. There is very little challenge to the solo content for someone who is in mastercrafted gear and adept 3s. There's is absolutely ZERO challenge to the solo content for someone who is in full fabled, masters and their mythical. Soloers asking for raid gear are, in effect, asking for the ability to nerf their preferred content into oblivion. I just don't understand the motivation, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. All it would do is guarantee they'd be bored out of their mind in short order, declare that the game was "too easy" and quit. What's the logic in SOE supporting that?</blockquote>Good post and I agree. Truth be told if they EVER put something in the game to be able to solo to get your mythical i would litterally camp whatever named mobs they need as much as humanly possible because I feel that they should not get a cheap way into getting it when I had to go thru the proper way.</blockquote>you mean like the current solo way of buying the updates?

Birn

12-06-2008, 11:56 AM

<cite>Giland@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are we looking to redefine how many people are in a group, or what a group makeup is?Currently, it is looking like 1 tank, 2 healers of different types, 1 mezzer/utility/dps, 2 dps.A group of this makeup is going to outperform a group of 3 tanks, 2 healers of same type, 1 dps.Can group B, using mastercrafted (72) armor and adept 3s finish the easier zones? I think it is really going to depend on their skill and some lucky breaks. They can probably kill a named or 3, but finishing might be on the tougher side. Earning shards might prove on the difficult side if they can't kill the boss. Of course, 3 of them could ditch their other 3 friends, find some pickups and progress through the zones until they get enough shards to buy gear before regrouping with their friends, but who wants to do that? After all, the expansion is about grouping, and grouping with friends is much better than complete strangers all the time.Or are they saying that only optimal groups can finish the content ?</blockquote>I havent seen one mission yet which requires you to finish the zone to get the void shards.In time people will be able to clear them with less desirable group setups when they have accumulated enough void shards and of course other gear dropped from the bosses.

Kordran

12-06-2008, 02:48 PM

<cite>Meridia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>you mean like the current solo way of buying the updates?</blockquote>This is a whole other topic of discussion, but I can say that is something that we would never do, no matter how much plat a player offered us to run them through. Personally, I consider it to be unethical and against the spirit of the game, but I don't know that there's any real way to prevent it (to a lesser extent, I feel the same about selling loot rights as well). Unfortunately, the issue of mythicals can also complicate recruiting -- invariably you run into people who don't have any real interest in contributing to the guild, they just want their myth updates. That's why you see some raiding guilds require "deposits" from recruits (I've seen anywhere from 300-700p) that are only refunded if they become a full member. But then again, that can just turn into the person buying their updates.

liveja

12-06-2008, 03:10 PM

<cite>Meridia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>the easiest instances should take me an hour in crudtastic pug. they do not currently. fix plz.</blockquote>I'm sorry, but SOE chose to give us something a little beyond Crypt of Agony <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />& just so you know, while some guilds will let you purchase a raid slot for your mythical ... that's still not a "solo path", because you're not going to solo VP access, let alone any of the mobs in VP, & I doubt you entirely solo'd your epic to begin with.

liveja

12-06-2008, 03:11 PM

<cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote>how many people fit the category of having the absolute best legendary gear from RoK?.</blockquote>I don't know, & I daresay neither you, nor anyone else, does either. That was my WHOLE POINT in responding to your post, which you -- in your rush to accuse me of "twisting" your words -- failed to note.Edit: Just to be clear, I don't even fit that category, as I'm wearing at least 1 piece of MC gear, & one of my wrist slot items is Treasured from a collection quest. It's my own personal experience that the easiest TSO instances do NOT require "absolutely the best legendary gear from ROK"; that's a flat exaggeration.Seriously, I wish people would quit exaggerating the doom-&-gloom. It's pathetic.

Kordran

12-06-2008, 03:26 PM

<cite>Gnova wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gear progression has entered the group game, once people realize this they will be fine.</blockquote>From what I can see, there are two camps of players who don't like this:1. Those who feel that it is an increase in difficulty that makes the game less enjoyable to play. The seem to be primarily the players in smaller family guilds who focus more on the social aspects of the game, and when you start talking about things like resists, mitigation, contested and uncontested avoidance, hard and soft caps, the details of AA builds and all the rest, their eyes glaze over. They just want to be able to run through the new instances with their buddies and be able to "win" (not just collect void shards). They don't like the scripted encounters, fail conditions and/or "requirement" for specific group builds. These are the folks who can't kill Doomsmith in DF, who can't kill the drakota in NT, or can't kill Bricktop in Nu'Roga.2. Those players, who as Meridia said, "group for giggles" and don't look to heroic content for challenges. For those folks, groups are downtime and they raid for challenging content. Instance runs are for something to pass the time, amuse themselves and on rare occasion find something useful (e.g.: a master to use or sell). It's not fun to have to give strats and pray to jeebus that the other five people in the group are listening, understand what they need to do and have the two spare brain cells required to execute correctly so you don't leave owing more money to the mender than what you got out of the instance.For the first group, "upping their game" is the solution, but then that requires they understand those eyeball-glazing details about how to gear, spec and play their toon. I've talked with level 80 plate tanks who think they have "pretty good" gear with 47% mitigation and 39% avoidance. Who think that their AA spec is "balanced" because they've put points in STR, AGI, STA, WIS and INT to boost their stats. And no, I'm not exaggerating here.For the second group, sticking to guild groups and their friends list is the only good solution, at least for the next few months. Although I have advocated providing some simpler TSO content for the "lower end" 80s out there, there is truth in the fact that eventually all of the TSO instances will become old-hat for a lot of players. The pain of being subjected to the incompetence of noobs and scrubs will eventually subside over time, just as it did with RoK (and just as with RoK, eventually SOE will probably nerf at least some of these instances to make them more noob-and-scrub friendly).

Kendricke

12-06-2008, 03:34 PM

<cite>Kordran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gnova wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gear progression has entered the group game, once people realize this they will be fine.</blockquote>From what I can see, there are two camps of players who don't like this:1. Those who feel that it is an increase in difficulty that makes the game less enjoyable to play. The seem to be primarily the players in smaller family guilds who focus more on the social aspects of the game, and when you start talking about things like resists, mitigation, contested and uncontested avoidance, hard and soft caps, the details of AA builds and all the rest, their eyes glaze over. They just want to be able to run through the new instances with their buddies and be able to "win" (not just collect void shards). They don't like the scripted encounters, fail conditions and/or "requirement" for specific group builds. These are the folks who can't kill Doomsmith in DF, who can't kill the drakota in NT, or can't kill Bricktop in Nu'Roga.2. Those players, who as Meridia said, "group for giggles" and don't look to heroic content for challenges. For those folks, groups are downtime and they raid for challenging content. Instance runs are for something to pass the time, amuse themselves and on rare occasion find something useful (e.g.: a master to use or sell). It's not fun to have to give strats and pray to jeebus that the other five people in the group are listening, understand what they need to do and have the two spare brain cells required to execute correctly so you don't leave owing more money to the mender than what you got out of the instance.For the first group, "upping their game" is the solution, but then that requires they understand those eyeball-glazing details about how to gear, spec and play their toon. I've talked with level 80 plate tanks who think they have "pretty good" gear with 47% mitigation and 39% avoidance. Who think that their AA spec is "balanced" because they've put points in STR, AGI, STA, WIS and INT to boost their stats. And no, I'm not exaggerating here.For the second group, sticking to guild groups and their friends list is the only good solution, at least for the next few months. Although I have advocated providing some simpler TSO content for the "lower end" 80s out there, there is truth in the fact that eventually all of the TSO instances will become old-hat for a lot of players. The pain of being subjected to the incompetence of noobs and scrubs will eventually subside over time, just as it did with RoK (and just as with RoK, eventually SOE will probably nerf at least some of these instances to make them more noob-and-scrub friendly).</blockquote>Agreed.

Lethe5683

12-06-2008, 05:34 PM

Bratface

12-07-2008, 01:43 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote> It's my own personal experience that the easiest TSO instances do NOT require "absolutely the best legendary gear from ROK"; that's a flat exaggeration.</blockquote>Dear god you twist things so easily, do you even see it? I never said it was required, I said it was what the devs in beta scaled the instances to, that is a fact openly stated on the beta boards.So, you can easily understand, if you have any common sense at all, that since it was tuned to that level of gear and spells that that is what is needed for the instances, or have you managed to do these things with a group of people equipped in treasured gear and ap1's? They did not tune these to be easy with the best legendary adn ad3 spells, they stated it should be a challenge to characters geared that way.They purposely made it a challenge for toons geared in the BEST legendary gear available and ad3 spells, so how do you figure that less than that is going to have a chance in hell at these zones? The number of characters geared in what the devs tuned the zones to is far fewer than you seem to be aware of.

liveja

12-07-2008, 01:46 PM

<cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote> It's my own personal experience that the easiest TSO instances do NOT require "absolutely the best legendary gear from ROK"; that's a flat exaggeration.</blockquote>Dear god you twist things so easily, do you even see it? Well, then now you know what it feels like to be accused of being "disdainful" by someone who doesn't know what you're talking about. In any event .....I never said it was required, I said it was what the devs in beta scaled the instances to, that is a fact openly stated on the beta boards.So, you can easily understand, if you have any common sense at all, that since it was tuned to that level of gear and spells that that is what is needed for the instancesSoooo, IOW, you're not saying that level of gear is "required", but you ARE saying that since the instances were tuned to that level of equipment, then that level of equipment is "what is needed" for TSO instances.Perhaps it would help if you would distinguish clearly between "required" & "needed", because, honestly, I'm not seeing the difference you're claiming.They did not tune these to be easy with the best legendary adn ad3 spellsUnfortunately for your claim, the easiest TSO instances are, in fact, fairly easy with that level of gear. Soooo if you have that level of gear, what's the issue? & if you don't have that level of gear -- note that I don't even have it, & the instances are STILL fairly easy -- then what are you doing about it???</blockquote>

Vanderlay

12-07-2008, 02:37 PM

As a level 80 zerker, I know I don't have the best gear, spells, etc. What I do know is that I know which buttons to push, how to tank, and how to try, and I repeat "try" to keep aggro. Unfortunately I took 10 months off from playing and really didn't get a chance to get the RoK gear. If someone could look at my toon (Santino on Nektulos server) and tell me what I should be using, I would appreciate it.On another note I have tanked some of the new instances with good groups and have had a great time, even though I'm not raid geared. It's nice having group members that are though! Especially those healer types <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kendricke

12-07-2008, 03:46 PM

<cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote>They purposely made it a challenge for toons geared in the BEST legendary gear available and ad3 spells, so how do you figure that less than that is going to have a chance in hell at these zones?</blockquote>I figure that because I've done it. Q.E.D.Seriously, do we keep coming back to the gear argument because without it, we have to accept that skill plays a part? I keep seeing the same players complain about how impossible these instances are without top gear. I keep seeing the same players complain that they can't find good groups. I keep seeing the same players complain about the lack of good groupmates in their pick-up groups. I keep seeing the same players complain about their inability to form up groups based on their friends list, their guilds, or the amount of time they can put in online. I keep seeing the same players complain that they won't get invited to groups because they aren't raid geared or don't have their mythicals.I have one word for these complaints: excuses. Every one is an excuse. I don't think this - I know this because I have earned over 60 shards so far across multiple characters. Not one of those characters has a mythical epic. Only one of those characters has raid gear. Only about a third to half of my groups were handled through my guild. Even then, more than half of my guild groups were less than ideal. Only a handful were in groups I'd consider "strong". The rest of the time I'm out hitting the channels and pressing the flesh, trying to get groups. When I can't find groups, I form them. I grab whatever guildmates are online, then hit my friends list, then start looking through the LFG/LFM tool and level channels. I don't sit around complaining that it can't be done - dammit, I go out and do it. So can you.

Kigneer

12-08-2008, 06:00 AM

<cite>Martn@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>How many hours are enough difficulty to compensate for each piece, 50 , 100, 200? Raiders can solo as well, so can serious groupers, casual raiders the whole gamut. I'd love to see more questlines that give a fabled reward that can be soloed, but the raiders will complete them as well if the gear is worthwhile. Some folks will even run through that quest grouped and you'll be competeing with them for the mobs you need. The last one that was put in I believe had several mobs on 2 hour respawn timers.</blockquote>The hours to be determined by the Devs.The point is raiders and groupers do both to hurry up and finish a quest and get whatever loot it brings. They careless about lore or legend, just to get the "end game" material.Would like those who are playing the game for it's FULL worth (not a race to the end and the boring raiding for gear), to be able to get good gear IF they're willing to take the time and effort to do so (bring back the personal challenge to the game!). Like the way Signature quests are done, by chapter over time.Good gear shouldn't be easy to get in one day (in raiding nor solo). Best gear should come to those who are willing to put the elbow grease into their work, not just dropped after forming a group or instance raid to get it. Been in groups and raids, and the idea a slacker coming in for the ride can greed on fabled+ gear is insulting.Raiders would never understand (especially if they got there's), but even if I was a raider decked out in mythicals, I still would feel cheated if I got them by just grouping and raiding with little personal challenge than pressing the hit/heal keys.

miserythedrow

12-08-2008, 07:10 AM

I've always been one to think that everyone should be able to get the same gear. Many hardcore raiders are complaining the new void armor gear is close to their epic raid gears. But why should the casual gamers be left out if they have lives or don't want to be in that kind of situation. But because they can't, I don't see why they should be left out.Personally SOE should have made work arounds for these non-raiders to get their gear. Now they have with the TSO armor void stuff given enough time. However this still leaves out the solo/small group players. Why should they be left out? I don't think ANYONE should be left out as far as rewards go. I do think it should take LONGER to accomplish these goals. For instance, mythical updates should solo people say a month or so of quests here and there to achieve. This way they have to take much longer to get it but still make it possible to happen.With this, Raiders could still raid for fun and challenge, plus their gear and stuff FASTER.Or I guess we could tell the solo/non serious raiders to stop whining and just quit the game already. Of course if that happened odds are the game would just about shut down since I'm sure they make up the majority by FAR. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd wager they outnumber raiders at least 3/1.

bryldan

12-08-2008, 09:08 AM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Martn@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>How many hours are enough difficulty to compensate for each piece, 50 , 100, 200? Raiders can solo as well, so can serious groupers, casual raiders the whole gamut. I'd love to see more questlines that give a fabled reward that can be soloed, but the raiders will complete them as well if the gear is worthwhile. Some folks will even run through that quest grouped and you'll be competeing with them for the mobs you need. The last one that was put in I believe had several mobs on 2 hour respawn timers.</blockquote>The hours to be determined by the Devs.The point is raiders and groupers do both to hurry up and finish a quest and get whatever loot it brings. They careless about lore or legend, just to get the "end game" material.Would like those who are playing the game for it's FULL worth (not a race to the end and the boring raiding for gear), to be able to get good gear IF they're willing to take the time and effort to do so (bring back the personal challenge to the game!). Like the way Signature quests are done, by chapter over time.Good gear shouldn't be easy to get in one day (in raiding nor solo). Best gear should come to those who are willing to put the elbow grease into their work, not just dropped after forming a group or instance raid to get it. Been in groups and raids, and the idea a slacker coming in for the ride can greed on fabled+ gear is insulting.Raiders would never understand (especially if they got there's), but even if I was a raider decked out in mythicals, I still would feel cheated if I got them by just grouping and raiding with little personal challenge than pressing the hit/heal keys.</blockquote>LOL o LOL wait a second LOL. You have ZERO i mean ZERO clue what you are talking about. If you actually raided (it shows that you clearly do not raid) then you would know how utterly false your claim actually is. You think it is easy to get thru these raid zones? You do not think that Raiders go thru a whole lot of deaths figuring out these raid zones? You are clearly forgetting all the blood and sweat that guilds bleed learning these encounters. Ya after they have them on farm status it is like you said but getting there is a completely different thing. The 100 deaths to nexona dont mean a thing huh because it was sooooo easy to get my mythical huh. Nooooo that wasnt hard i guess i feel cheated spending so many hours on a single mob to accomplish getting thru to get my mythical. Honestly before commenting on something you have ZERO idea about learn about what you are talking about first kk thx try again.

bryldan

12-08-2008, 09:14 AM

<cite>miserythedrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've always been one to think that everyone should be able to get the same gear. Many hardcore raiders are complaining the new void armor gear is close to their epic raid gears. But why should the casual gamers be left out if they have lives or don't want to be in that kind of situation. But because they can't, I don't see why they should be left out.Personally SOE should have made work arounds for these non-raiders to get their gear. Now they have with the TSO armor void stuff given enough time. However this still leaves out the solo/small group players. Why should they be left out? I don't think ANYONE should be left out as far as rewards go. I do think it should take LONGER to accomplish these goals. For instance, mythical updates should solo people say a month or so of quests here and there to achieve. This way they have to take much longer to get it but still make it possible to happen.With this, Raiders could still raid for fun and challenge, plus their gear and stuff FASTER.Or I guess we could tell the solo/non serious raiders to stop whining and just quit the game already. Of course if that happened odds are the game would just about shut down since I'm sure they make up the majority by FAR. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd wager they outnumber raiders at least 3/1.</blockquote>Ummmm casuals are not left out they CHOOSE to be left out. It takes something called inititive either you have it or you dont since you do not you should have no reason to complain. The level of difficulty requires the gear not that its the best shinny but because it is needed to beat the content not the other way around. YOU look at it like a greed factor over something that is ANIMATED. Do you need the kind of stats that are on some of this fabled stuff to defeat that *? HECK NO does someone who is taking a epic ^^^ that is 4-5 levels higher need it? HECK YES. This goes for the gear from gear to solo. That soloist does not NEED void armor THEY WANT IT which equals GREED there is no other explanation for it and thats PATHETIC because afterall it is only computer animated and personally if you think it makes yourself any better you should check yourself into a hospital.

Bratface

12-08-2008, 09:59 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote> It's my own personal experience that the easiest TSO instances do NOT require "absolutely the best legendary gear from ROK"; that's a flat exaggeration.</blockquote>Dear god you twist things so easily, do you even see it? Well, then now you know what it feels like to be accused of being "disdainful" by someone who doesn't know what you're talking about. In any event .....I never said it was required, I said it was what the devs in beta scaled the instances to, that is a fact openly stated on the beta boards.So, you can easily understand, if you have any common sense at all, that since it was tuned to that level of gear and spells that that is what is needed for the instancesSoooo, IOW, you're not saying that level of gear is "required", but you ARE saying that since the instances were tuned to that level of equipment, then that level of equipment is "what is needed" for TSO instances.Perhaps it would help if you would distinguish clearly between "required" & "needed", because, honestly, I'm not seeing the difference you're claiming.They did not tune these to be easy with the best legendary adn ad3 spellsUnfortunately for your claim, the easiest TSO instances are, in fact, fairly easy with that level of gear. Soooo if you have that level of gear, what's the issue? & if you don't have that level of gear -- note that I don't even have it, & the instances are STILL fairly easy -- then what are you doing about it???</blockquote></blockquote>Out of context twisting ftl!

Kigneer

12-08-2008, 10:02 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seriously, I wish people would quit exaggerating the doom-&-gloom. It's pathetic.</blockquote>I wish mains of alt's alts would stop lying to new people to this game, too. That's REALLY pathetic.This game is geared not to new players, but to cater to a population of 3 year to 5 year players who are navel gazers and turf fighters, more interested in their domains than what's best for the game for everyone. MEMEME in a MMO = death to both the game and it's genre (just look at how many MMOs flopped, because they listened to the whiners -- "We need more PvP!!!"; "RAID!!"; "Faster loot!!").The day the devs finally figure out what's best for this genre, another would replace it (like MMOs are doing to MUDs).I want to play the [Removed for Content] game. Work for access, but not be blocked because I don't believe in wasting 15+ minute blocks of my life waiting for EVERY group to form to get there (then watching it fall apart within 30 to 45 minutes, as folks leave on the fly -- "Got a raid invite.....").15 minutes even in an Asian grinder would be more beneficial.Time = money. If you want to blow it that's your choice, but people have RL and other things to do BUT waiting for 6+ people to show up to do anything. Be considerate to EVERYONE, not just your pet persuits.

Bratface

12-08-2008, 10:04 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>& just so you know, while some guilds will let you purchase a raid slot for your mythical ... that's still not a "solo path", because you're not going to solo VP access, let alone any of the mobs in VP, & I doubt you entirely solo'd your epic to begin with.</blockquote>LOL How did I miss this gem?Yes people solo to get the mythicals, they PAY to be walked through the zones to get the updates, they don't solo the mobs, they solo other mobs to PAY others to kill for them.Don't tell me you didn't know this, unless you have been living under a rock or something.You can pay to have both the group and raid aspects of both the fabled and mythical done for you if you have enough plat or connections.

EasternKing

12-08-2008, 10:23 AM

Terron

12-08-2008, 10:39 AM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>& just so you know, I think that by level 80 it is perfectly acceptable to expect that a competent player has gone to the effort of upgrading all his/her spells to Adept 3, has done the faction lines & can obtain legendary gear that way, & has attempted sufficient instance runs to get geared up. If they're not doing those things ... what ARE they doing???</blockquote>Playing the game a different way to you.I like doing quests.I don't like doing the same thing over and over.I don't play to get money - that is too much like work.Neither of my two level 80s is fully adept III'd. Whenever they have enough money they buy loams and get adept IIIs made.Their gear is a mixture of T7 legendary, T7 fabled, T8 mastercrafted, T8 legendary (the larst part) and some T8 fabled. They both have their epics and Thuuga items. One has had little luck on T8 raids and the other has had quite a bit, but I do not regularly raid T8. One has 5 shards and the other three, thouhg I have not competed a single one of the new zones.

Faenril

12-08-2008, 10:53 AM

I have a little question, an honnest question: If you are the kind of player that "groups for the giggles", as was said - I'm fine with that, really - why don't you run ROK stuff if you can't beat TSO stuff ? If what you are interested in is the social aspect of the group, chatting and so on, how does it matter which zone you actually run ? CoA is just fine, short, does not have high focus or skills requirements, and can be done with T7 gear. I started playing the game in a "casual friendly" profile guild. We always ran easy T7 instance because we could not take on the harder ones, unless the proper persons were on the same day, and we never complained about it. It's really the same old story as mythicals and all. Why should the challenges the game offers be toned down to fit YOUR playstyle/gear/skills/friends/mood ? If you don't want to do what it takes to beat the hard content, stick to the easy one. It's not like TSO instances are the only option at T8.

Yimway

12-08-2008, 12:17 PM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>you need to raid 3 times at least usually 4 times to get a mythical updates completed to get a mythical weapon, this means you CANNOT solo your mythical. nice try in twisting things to suit your needs.</blockquote>Right, he was saying you can pay for those 3-4 updates and get your mythical as a solo/unguilded player.I know we've sold myth updates to atleast 3 soloers.

Noaani

12-08-2008, 12:45 PM

<cite>Meridia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>i dont want solo quests for awesome gear.. i'd rather get them out of the instances. i just want the instances to be something the dumb monkey pugs i get can do. which currently tso isnt.</blockquote>Of course its not, thats what RoK instances are for... gearing up and gaining the basic skills of your class, learning how to group etc. Scion of Ice is faster and easier than Maidens or Chelsith, if you know what you are doing.

liveja

12-08-2008, 01:22 PM

<cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote>Out of context twisting ftl!</blockquote>Right, but of course, you can't be bothered to put forth an argument to defend this claim, which itself has already been demonstrated false.IOW: inability to articulate a convincing argument FTL.

liveja

12-08-2008, 01:25 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to blow it that's your choice</blockquote>I'm NOT the one blowing time, here. Apparently, going by the tone of your post, YOU are. After all, I'm the one that's mostly satisfied with EQ2, & apparently, you're not.Think about that, & understand that your happiness is up to you.

liveja

12-08-2008, 01:30 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>you need to raid 3 times at least usually 4 times to get a mythical updates completed to get a mythical weapon, this means you CANNOT solo your mythical. nice try in twisting things to suit your needs.</blockquote>Right, he was saying you can pay for those 3-4 updates and get your mythical as a solo/unguilded player.I know we've sold myth updates to atleast 3 soloers.</blockquote>I'm sorry, Atan: what does this have to do with "soloing" your mythical? SURELY you're not trying to imply that being unguilded makes one a "soloer", are you?

Rijacki

12-08-2008, 01:39 PM

<cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>& just so you know, while some guilds will let you purchase a raid slot for your mythical ... that's still not a "solo path", because you're not going to solo VP access, let alone any of the mobs in VP, & I doubt you entirely solo'd your epic to begin with.</blockquote>LOL How did I miss this gem?Yes people solo to get the mythicals, they PAY to be walked through the zones to get the updates, they don't solo the mobs, they solo other mobs to PAY others to kill for them.Don't tell me you didn't know this, unless you have been living under a rock or something.You can pay to have both the group and raid aspects of both the fabled and mythical done for you if you have enough plat or connections.</blockquote>You said it yourself, they join a raid (whether they paid them or not is immaterial) and then they "don't solo the mobs", the mobs are killed for them -while they are part of the raid-. They cannot stand in a corner of the zone, out of the raid force, while the mob is being killed. Even if they don't lift a finger to press any buttons, they are still subject to the same AEs and other encounter (or zone) wide effects. If Leviathon isn't eating fish-suited people, they'll get the fishy acid bath, if Druushk's statues aren't clicked, they'll be burned to a crisp, they'll take the chance of being encased in a gooey cacoon while facing the spider, etc.Paying for your mythical might be something a solo'er (or anyone else) can do, but it still takes a raid force to obtain, no matter how much you pay. And, it still takes some measure of risk on the part of the one buying the updates.Don't tell me you didn't know this, unless you have been living under a rock or something...

Yimway

12-08-2008, 01:56 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Right, he was saying you can pay for those 3-4 updates and get your mythical as a solo/unguilded player.I know we've sold myth updates to atleast 3 soloers.</blockquote>I'm sorry, Atan: what does this have to do with "soloing" your mythical? SURELY you're not trying to imply that being unguilded makes one a "soloer", are you?</blockquote>No, thats not what I was trying to say. Being unguilded is just one of the common tells of a soloer. Those unguilded who've never once been seen LFG or LFM are a pretty good sign of a pure soloer.I was agreeing with the previous poster though, you can solo your way to enough plat to purchase your mythical. I'm quite certain several of the people who've paid us for a slot on raid did exactly that. Depending on your class you can buy all your myth updates for as little as 125p. I know I make that much everytime I take an alt thru 71-80 soloquest. So, I'd say its possible to solo your way to the means to get a mythical.

liveja

12-08-2008, 02:08 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote> So, I'd say its possible to solo your way to the means to get a mythical.</blockquote>NOBODY disputed THAT, & in fact, it's so common-sense obvious that I can't believe that's all Brattface intended to say <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />So, let me be clear: having a solo path TO THE MEANS to get a mythical is NOT NOT NOT the same as saying you can SOLO your mythical. Because, honestly, if it were the same, then there's a "solo path" to every single piece of fabled "raid" gear in this game, which means we no longer have a problem at all, because "soloers" can solo their way to riches via shiny or harvest collections, & then just pay their way to loot rights for whatever they want.So, can we now return to something actually arguable???

Rijacki

12-08-2008, 02:29 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote> So, I'd say its possible to solo your way to the means to get a mythical.</blockquote>NOBODY disputed THAT, & in fact, it's so common-sense obvious that I can't believe that's all Brattface intended to say <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />So, let me be clear: having a solo path TO THE MEANS to get a mythical is NOT NOT NOT the same as saying you can SOLO your mythical. Because, honestly, if it were the same, then there's a "solo path" to every single piece of fabled "raid" gear in this game, which means we no longer have a problem at all, because "soloers" can solo their way to riches via shiny or harvest collections, & then just pay their way to loot rights for whatever they want.So, can we now return to something actually arguable???</blockquote>By the exact same claim that someone can "solo" their mythical by paying others to kill the mobs, one can also "solo" the TSO shard quests. A - you could pay to be in a group, while doing as little as you would on raid where you paid for your mythical updates, to kill the specific non-named targets.B- for those quests requiring you to pick up thus and so items, you can pay a group which has cleared the zone (or cleared enough to get to all the pickup points) and still has a timer to allow you to group with them and go pick up the items.

Loolee

12-08-2008, 02:31 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>To counter-act the doom-&-gloomers like you, because I'm not interested in having SOE think your view is the only one around, or even that it's the majority</blockquote>Get it through that green snot covered screed -- grouping as of old is history.Casual gaming is THE direction of gaming today. Nothing, and I mean nothing is going to change that play style AND PROGRAMMING trend. Publishers have to make money, and they can't survive (let alone investers want to upkeep) a niche market, in a market with too many dismal failures (MMOs don't have a good history).So cry, whine, make a big soap opera out of it like a little kid who was denied his candy -- it's not going to change a thing.</blockquote>In your opinion. I know plenty of people that play this game to group, to spend time with their friends and work for a common goal. In fact, I know several people that have come back to this game specifically for the grouping aspect that came with the new expansion. It seems to me, that there are more people in this thread saying they like the way grouping has been brought back to the forefront and only a handfull of folks claiming this will be the "End of EQ2 for All Time!"

12-08-2008, 02:37 PM

[removed quoted text-- Kiara]Grouping is in WoW and they have more gamers then here, why don't you try posting on wow's boards about how grouping is sooo yesteryear and see what kind of response you get..Let's put some perspective into what is happening, since apparenlty you missed it. YES there is alot of solo type playstyle happening there are lots of reasons for this, one major one being time. Not everyone has alot of it for various reasons. This is NOT to say that grouping is dead, and not desireable. EVEN those with very limited amounts of time love to group, note I said LOVE not like. Then there are those that LOVE to raid, not like I mean LOVE. To the point that everything else in the game to them is a waste but they just want to raid. All of these "types" of play style folks have various amounts of play time. Some of them are very very limited and yet still raid! Some of them are excessively large and only solo. There is NO wrong in how someone plays, it's just what they enjoy doing. So when you say grouping is as old as time or whatever, you are really just missing the full picture.Forced grouping as like what was present in EQ1 to even level you had to group I believe would be a fair comment to say it's soo last generation. As it is now there is a ton of solo content that you can do. IF you are going to "whine" about the shinesy like mythical weapons, and fabled.. well frankly a solo'er never needs them, so really all that is a whine.

Yimway

12-08-2008, 02:40 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>By the exact same claim that someone can "solo" their mythical by paying others to kill the mobs, one can also "solo" the TSO shard quests. </blockquote>It's already happening, I started a new thread about it.

bryldan

12-08-2008, 02:41 PM

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>To counter-act the doom-&-gloomers like you, because I'm not interested in having SOE think your view is the only one around, or even that it's the majority</blockquote>Get it through that green snot covered screed -- grouping as of old is history.Casual gaming is THE direction of gaming today. Nothing, and I mean nothing is going to change that play style AND PROGRAMMING trend. Publishers have to make money, and they can't survive (let alone investers want to upkeep) a niche market, in a market with too many dismal failures (MMOs don't have a good history).So cry, whine, make a big soap opera out of it like a little kid who was denied his candy -- it's not going to change a thing.</blockquote>Grouping is in WoW and they have more gamers then here, why don't you try posting on wow's boards about how grouping is sooo yesteryear and see what kind of response you get..Let's put some perspective into what is happening, since apparenlty you missed it. YES there is alot of solo type playstyle happening there are lots of reasons for this, one major one being time. Not everyone has alot of it for various reasons. This is NOT to say that grouping is dead, and not desireable. EVEN those with very limited amounts of time love to group, note I said LOVE not like. Then there are those that LOVE to raid, not like I mean LOVE. To the point that everything else in the game to them is a waste but they just want to raid. All of these "types" of play style folks have various amounts of play time. Some of them are very very limited and yet still raid! Some of them are excessively large and only solo. There is NO wrong in how someone plays, it's just what they enjoy doing. So when you say grouping is as old as time or whatever, you are really just missing the full picture.Forced grouping as like what was present in EQ1 to even level you had to group I believe would be a fair comment to say it's soo last generation. As it is now there is a ton of solo content that you can do. IF you are going to "whine" about the shinesy like mythical weapons, and fabled.. well frankly a solo'er never needs them, so really all that is a whine.</blockquote>Exactly how I am. I LOVE to raid but work full time and go to school full time which leaves me lil time to do what I like doing in this game.

Bratface

12-08-2008, 02:47 PM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>& just so you know, while some guilds will let you purchase a raid slot for your mythical ... that's still not a "solo path", because you're not going to solo VP access, let alone any of the mobs in VP, & I doubt you entirely solo'd your epic to begin with.</blockquote>LOL How did I miss this gem?Yes people solo to get the mythicals, they PAY to be walked through the zones to get the updates, they don't solo the mobs, they solo other mobs to PAY others to kill for them.Don't tell me you didn't know this, unless you have been living under a rock or something.You can pay to have both the group and raid aspects of both the fabled and mythical done for you if you have enough plat or connections.</blockquote>you need to raid 3 times at least usually 4 times to get a mythical updates completed to get a mythical weapon, this means you CANNOT solo your mythical. nice try in twisting things to suit your needs.</blockquote>So what? People PAY to be on a raid, they don't have to be a raider, they can be total soloers who just join for the kill and update, still makes them a soloer. You don't have to raid, you have to be in a raid, and no skill is needed for that, just plat or connections.

Kiara

12-08-2008, 02:58 PM

This thread is fast degenerating into a name calling, disrespectful mess.Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to their playstyle.Everyone needs to accord their fellow posters respect on all counts.This thread wants to get civil again in a big hurry.Please and thank you.

Kigneer

12-08-2008, 08:34 PM

<cite>Loolee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>To counter-act the doom-&-gloomers like you, because I'm not interested in having SOE think your view is the only one around, or even that it's the majority</blockquote>Get it through that green snot covered screed -- grouping as of old is history.Casual gaming is THE direction of gaming today. Nothing, and I mean nothing is going to change that play style AND PROGRAMMING trend. Publishers have to make money, and they can't survive (let alone investers want to upkeep) a niche market, in a market with too many dismal failures (MMOs don't have a good history).So cry, whine, make a big soap opera out of it like a little kid who was denied his candy -- it's not going to change a thing.</blockquote>In your opinion. I know plenty of people that play this game to group, to spend time with their friends and work for a common goal. In fact, I know several people that have come back to this game specifically for the grouping aspect that came with the new expansion. It seems to me, that there are more people in this thread saying they like the way grouping has been brought back to the forefront and only a handfull of folks claiming this will be the "End of EQ2 for All Time!"</blockquote>That is NOT an opinion, it's a f-a-c-t. Casual gaming is where the money is at and publishers adjust accordingly. To buck the trend is to lose market share, and that means no $$$$$$$$ for game development.With AAA games costing 50 million at least to get to the shelves, and investors wanting a nice return on the gamble, that's who dictates the direction of ANY game -- not us, those who really pay for the devs' salaries.No whining, no history, no "MMO's were always...", or subscriptions matters.EQ2 either will have to adjust to the here and now -- not just with WoW to imitate (a bane in game development for years, popular title and every publisher is trying to copy the trend) -- or it'll go back into hibernation mode. EQ2 has many problems in getting and keeping it's population, and part of it is the insistence of keeping the status quo.Change is good -- not more inbreeding of the nth alt of someone's main.

bryldan

12-08-2008, 08:58 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Loolee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>To counter-act the doom-&-gloomers like you, because I'm not interested in having SOE think your view is the only one around, or even that it's the majority</blockquote>Get it through that green snot covered screed -- grouping as of old is history.Casual gaming is THE direction of gaming today. Nothing, and I mean nothing is going to change that play style AND PROGRAMMING trend. Publishers have to make money, and they can't survive (let alone investers want to upkeep) a niche market, in a market with too many dismal failures (MMOs don't have a good history).So cry, whine, make a big soap opera out of it like a little kid who was denied his candy -- it's not going to change a thing.</blockquote>In your opinion. I know plenty of people that play this game to group, to spend time with their friends and work for a common goal. In fact, I know several people that have come back to this game specifically for the grouping aspect that came with the new expansion. It seems to me, that there are more people in this thread saying they like the way grouping has been brought back to the forefront and only a handfull of folks claiming this will be the "End of EQ2 for All Time!"</blockquote>That is NOT an opinion, it's a f-a-c-t. Casual gaming is where the money is at and publishers adjust accordingly. To buck the trend is to lose market share, and that means no $$$$$$$$ for game development.With AAA games costing 50 million at least to get to the shelves, and investors wanting a nice return on the gamble, that's who dictates the direction of ANY game -- not us, those who really pay for the devs' salaries.No whining, no history, no "MMO's were always...", or subscriptions matters.EQ2 either will have to adjust to the here and now -- not just with WoW to imitate (a bane in game development for years, popular title and every publisher is trying to copy the trend) -- or it'll go back into hibernation mode. EQ2 has many problems in getting and keeping it's population, and part of it is the insistence of keeping the status quo.Change is good -- not more inbreeding of the nth alt of someone's main.</blockquote>Drastic changes in a 4 year old game is NOT good and if you think differently then........Look even if you completely changed the game it would NOT bring a huge influxe of ppl back all it would probably do is DRIVE ppl AWAY that liked the game that it used to be. There has been PLENTY of games which has proven this point UO? Daoc? just to name two of them off the top of my head.Edit: another case in point is THIS very game. Look what happened when RoK came out. It was a drastic change in things in the way you want to see the game go and look what happened we had ppl leaving in DROVES mid expansion.

Kendricke

12-08-2008, 09:05 PM

<cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is NOT an opinion, it's a f-a-c-t. Casual gaming is where the money is at and publishers adjust accordingly. To buck the trend is to lose market share, and that means no $$$$$$$$ for game development.</blockquote>It is an opinion. There are multiple business models which exist to serve different clienteles. There's a large market for casual gaming, to be sure. However, what I think many here may be completely missing out on is the idea that an MMO (ANY MMO) fits the concept of "casual game". Peggle and Bejeweled are what's often referred to as "casual games". World of Warcraft doesn't even come close (please note that there's now a special in-game version of Bejeweled in World of Warcraft though).More to the point, it's not the type of game which really pulls in the money, but the business model around which the game is built. The Big Money (note the caps) comes from RMT/microtransaction business models - not subscription models. Even U.S. Government economists and academic thinktanks have noted this. You want to convince SOE game designers that they need to pull in the big bucks? Then you need to start talking more about more Legends of Norrath and less about void shards. ...if you want to talk about what's "good" game design, then we can probably have a bit more of a discussion on the subject here.

wolfIII

12-08-2008, 09:40 PM

This community is as diverse in playstyle as rl is diverse it's communities. Some players think it is just awesome to have 20 instances available and no other content to distract players from their groups. That is their game, big friends lists, big guilds, fast paced groups. Others may like to group with just a few family or friends and don't want to be lfg ever or invite outsiders into their family just to be able to play. Some others just like to solo or box and that is how they enjoy the game.Many of the solo/box people also raid. That is where their group action is and want to relax and play their own game when not raiding. None of these playstyles is wrong. All of these playstyles have been accounted for since EQ2 was developed in 2004. It is ONLY this expansion that has virtually left out whole groups of playstyles, hence the complaints.The folks that love this expansion will say "there is over 100 solo quests and tradeskill quests, everyone is covered", truth is that is less than a month of content in a year expansion. I agree, instances were limited in RoK but there were 4 plus the heroic dungeons and COM for groups. There were also a lot of heroic quests that didn't include instances. The group content was there, maybe not to the extent desired, but it was there. This expansion has eleminated new content for a lot of players. That has caused anger and resentment and needs to be addressed. I certainly hope it is addressed in the near future and i also hope that everyone is mature enough to respect and allow play styles that differ from theirs.

liveja

12-08-2008, 09:55 PM

<cite>wolfIII wrote:</cite><blockquote>This expansion has eleminated new content for a lot of players. </blockquote>It did nothing of the sort, any more than ROK did. As I've said repeatedly, people choose their own playstyle, & their chosen playstyles ALONE are what's preventing them from doing the new content.I get the impression that SOE isn't all that interested in ensuring that their game has "sufficient" content for every single playstyle under the sun, & in fact, I think it's even moderately unreasonable to expect them to. I think they want to provide a game world, & people deal with it as they choose, but how people choose to deal with it isn't as important to the devs, so long as they deal with the world without using bugs & exploits.It doesn't, & won't, hurt any "soloer" or "duoer" or "trioer" or "multi-boxer" to pick up a few extra people with whom to play. This is just as true in TSO, as it was true that no "grouper" or "raider" was "injured" or "discriminated against" by doing ROK solo quest lines.

wolfIII

12-08-2008, 10:04 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>wolfIII wrote:</cite><blockquote>This expansion has eleminated new content for a lot of players. </blockquote>It did nothing of the sort, any more than ROK did. As I've said repeatedly, people choose their own playstyle, & their chosen playstyles ALONE are what's preventing them from doing the new content.I get the impression that SOE isn't all that interested in ensuring that their game has "sufficient" content for every single playstyle under the sun, & in fact, I think it's even moderately unreasonable to expect them to. I think they want to provide a game world, & people deal with it as they choose, but how people choose to deal with it isn't as important to the devs, so long as they deal with the world without using bugs & exploits.It doesn't, & won't, hurt any "soloer" or "duoer" or "trioer" or "multi-boxer" to pick up a few extra people with whom to play. This is just as true in TSO, as it was true that no "grouper" or "raider" was "injured" or "discriminated against" by doing ROK solo quest lines.</blockquote>Every other expansion has accomodated these play styles, why stop now? Some people don't like doing full group content. Nothing is preventing them from doing it, it just isin't fun to them. I have enjoyed this game since launch but won't play this expansion. This is a game and supposed to be fun, running group instances all of the time I'm online isin't fun to me. I run instances for quest updates and once for disco and aa, but then I'm done for the expansion. This playstyle has worked for 4 years but not here and now.It seems to me that the devs could have made 10 or 12 instances and used resources to accomodate other players. This expansion would have been in line with other prior content if this had been done.