Critical mitigation and TSO instances [Archive]

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Jrral

11-29-2008, 10:53 PM

I'm noticing a gearing discrepancy between the available items and the instances. In <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=429356" target="_blank">a beta thread</a> Aeralik talked about the new critical-hit mechanics and the intent to have gear that would mitigate critical hits. At the same time, I'm not seeing any gear with any critical mitigation on it except for the advanced void-shard armor and (according to FireFlyte <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=437120" target="_blank">here</a>) some raid-drop armor (particularly class sets).Normally I'd chalk that up to "only needed for raids", except that in Deep Forge I've got a parse with the trash mobs critting for 3-4K (and double-attacking like mad) and nameds critting for 15K. That's enough on normal mobs to make it dicey even with 2 healers, and a 15K hit is pretty much fatal for a non-raid-geared tank. Deep Forge is supposed to be one of the easiest TSO instances (along with Scion of Ice) so I'm kind of expecting it to be aimed at people with good RoK group-instance gear, not raid gear. And I don't think "earn the shard armor" is particularly helpful, since that requires running the very instances you need the armor for and running them a lot given the way the pricing is.Am I missing a source of critical mitigation here, or is something really out of sync between the itemization and the combat mechanics?NB: I've got the ACT parse showing those crits. Nameds in particular seem to be running anywhere from a 13% to a 20% crit rate in Deep Forge.

Prestissimo

11-30-2008, 11:11 PM

Deep forge in general needs to be nerfed mainly on the last named. He is absolutely tearing apart anyone not in really good gear in there, and even with a half raid equiped tank, fully raid equiped shawman, and a warden, we got spanked with ease. The dots he drops are hitting for anywhere from 3k up to 9k, and that is just absolutely silly when you think about how much life he has, how much space those dumbfire pets cover, and how frequently they drop without chance of going away. We should have breezed through there, but instead we broke 2 times. I blame very poor work on the mechanics team, but I guess the developers are making content to please the loyal and screw the non-raid geared its very easy to understand why they did it. It completely boils down to my previous about 200 posts on both here, and eq2flames that"It's not the characters that are broken, it's the rediculously overpowered high end gear thats making them overpowered, and justifying huge nerfs on the entire world purely because less than 0.5% of the population are overpowered."

Banditman

12-01-2008, 11:22 AM

Deep Forge may well be the easiest instance in TSO. If you aren't killing the final named in there, you're doing it wrong. I've killed that named in a PUG with my craptastically heroic geared Troubador.

Fyreflyte

12-01-2008, 04:07 PM

While some critical attack was added to the mobs in Forge, it was not designed to be required to complete it. The critical hit modifier on the mobs in Forge is set pretty low; keep in mind that you gain some critical mitigation from either int or agi, and that certain classes can debuff a mob's critical mult. All these things considered, even legendary-geared tanks should be able to handle the boss of Forge, if done properly.

Brook

12-01-2008, 04:33 PM

Fyreflyte

12-01-2008, 04:45 PM

<cite>Brook wrote:</cite><blockquote>Could you please explain what Int and Agi have to do with mitigating damage?Agi I can understand may make you avoid some of the damage? but Int?</blockquote>You're asking for an RP reason behind it? A variety of games (present and past) have actually used intelligence in their defensive calculations. I think the thought there is that if you are able to understand and calculate the flow of combat, you're more easily able to anticipate the moves of your opponent and avoid their attacks. Good example would be the Grammaton Clerics in Equilibrium, if you've ever seen that film.Mind you this is a guess, since I didn't create this system =)

Xalmat

12-01-2008, 04:51 PM

INT = crit mit for mages and priests.

Geothe

12-01-2008, 04:53 PM

Yeah, like Xalmat said, Mages/Priests use Int as crit mit stat while Fighters/scouts use Agi.And if I recall correctly, the crit mit granted by stats caps out at a net of 10 mit if you are at the stat cap (~1200-ish).Granted, I coul dbe off there, but that is what I recall from Beta

Brook

12-01-2008, 05:39 PM

OK that makes sense, as does the other explanations TY... just for clarafication though, Will my gaurd have any benifit mitigating damage by increasing Int or is that just for mage and preist?Also a bit off topic: Do my guards taunts actually work better with a higher Int considering they are somewhat of a spell?I am not in game at the moment, but if I remember right there are low to high numbers in the amount of hate generated by taunts.

Arrowheart

12-01-2008, 06:55 PM

<cite>Brook wrote:</cite><blockquote>OK that makes sense, as does the other explanations TY... just for clarafication though, Will my gaurd have any benifit mitigating damage by increasing Int or is that just for mage and preist?Also a bit off topic: Do my guards taunts actually work better with a higher Int considering they are somewhat of a spell?I am not in game at the moment, but if I remember right there are low to high numbers in the amount of hate generated by taunts.</blockquote>INT only affects crit mit on mages/priests. Only AGI will help you as a guardian.INT increases spell dmg and dmg procs (I could be wrong but I don't think it affects taunts).

JenarieII

12-01-2008, 07:50 PM

We need more INT on priest gear since this is now an important stat for us. I've been buying void shard gear and watching my INT go down down down which is counter intuitive since the new gear is supposed to help us with crit mitigation.

Praytus

12-01-2008, 08:31 PM

Any reason Agi/Int don't show any crit mit in the player window?

ke'la

12-01-2008, 09:10 PM

<cite>Praytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Any reason Agi/Int don't show any crit mit in the player window?</blockquote>My guess... a UI issue... one that should be /feedback(ed) so we can get it added.

Jrral

12-02-2008, 12:50 AM

<cite>Fyreflyte wrote:</cite><blockquote>While some critical attack was added to the mobs in Forge, it was not designed to be required to complete it. The critical hit modifier on the mobs in Forge is set pretty low; keep in mind that you gain some critical mitigation from either int or agi, and that certain classes can debuff a mob's critical mult. All these things considered, even legendary-geared tanks should be able to handle the boss of Forge, if done properly.</blockquote>I'm not sure if it's a UI bug or a game bug, but the persona window shows 0% critical mitigation for all characters. Even ones with their crit-mit stat solidly over 1000.As for the mobs, I've got the parse here. Ordinary mobs, the Netherflame enforcers were dishing out 1251 DPS zone-wide, the Deep Forge footmen were dishing out 860 DPS. Firelord Kaern was critting 18% of the time, doing a hair shy of 4200 DPS. The average swing looks to be hitting the tank for somewhere around 50% of his hit points after taking wards, mitigation (upwards of 55%) and everything into account.I expect these instances to be tough, but this is one of the two easiest instances in the game, the tank's a paladin with his RoK class set, and Kaern is literally swatting him like a bug (one moment he's solidly in the green, 2 seconds later he's face-down dead right through his own wards, a defiler's wards, a templar's reactives and a warden's HoTs). Then I see a mechanics dev saying that adding crits to mobs is deliberate, and an itemization dev saying that leaving critical mitigation off of non-raid gear (other than the advanced shard armor that a non-raid group's unlikely to be able to get for quite some time) is deliberate, and I start to think about all the "bugs" I've had to squash that were two bits of code each working as intended but not the way the other bit thought was intended (I've got to fix one of those tomorrow caused by somebody not telling me they'd changed the CR between the time I did my half of the work and the time Kim did her half).

ke'la

12-02-2008, 02:05 AM

One thing you have to remember about the Crit mit, is even if the multiplier is removed completly that mob will still register as a Critical attack, it will just be Damage X 1 instead of Damage x 1.2 or whatever the multiplier is, so first thing that needs to be deturmined is if a Mob hitting for 5-6k is do to the MoB Criting or is it because that is what the MoB's normal attack is, cause correct me if I am wrong but alot of MoBs hit for crazy amounts of Normal Damage befor Criting was added.

Vulkan_NTooki

12-02-2008, 05:12 AM

Why do ppl keep saying raid equipped.. You can do ALL the easy/moderate zones in gear from RoK instances/quests.Add in fabled epic, and a shield from Vaults(first named) and your golden.<table style="width: 322pt; border-collapse: collapse;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="429"><colgroup span="1"><col span="2" width="80"></col><col span="1" width="269"></col></colgroup><tbody><tr height="17"><td width="80" height="17"> </td><td width="80">Head</td><td width="269"><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-664061834">Bloodied Chitin Helm</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Shoulder</td><td ><a title="FABLED" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/296465230">Mantle of the Jarsath Tribe</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Chest</td><td ><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1529693601">Breastplate of Deflection</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Cloak</td><td ><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1521698005">Drape of the BlackHearted</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Forearm</td><td ><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-61520915">Armguards of the Elite Yha-lei Shock Troops</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Hands</td><td ><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2083821507">Gwalnax Brigade Gauntlets</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Legs</td><td ><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1753051492">Dreadscale Greaves</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Feet</td><td ><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-856068045">Bloodied Chitin Boots</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td > </td><td > </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Neck</td><td ><a title="FABLED" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/717281040">Ganak's Torque</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Earring 1</td><td ><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/720382416">Incarnadine Earring</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Earring 2</td><td ><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/1351181671">Earing of Sedition</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Ring 1</td><td ><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-79216311">Lost Ring of the Tides</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Ring 2</td><td ><a title="FABLED" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1849211307">Band of Thuuga</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Wrist 1</td><td ><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-316707994">Nak'azar Brigade Bracers</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Wrist 2</td><td ><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2079592809">Shackles of the Court</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Waist</td><td ><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2126593866">Baldric of the Di'Zok Warlord</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td > </td><td > </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td >Ranged</td><td ><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1692779064">Warlord's Long Bow of Defense</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td > </td><td > </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td > </td><td > </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td > </td><td > </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td >Charm</td><td ><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/505019253">Drolvarg Weapons Emblem</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td >Charm</td><td ><a title="FABLED" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/41729229">Scale of the Leviathan</a></td></tr></tbody></table> This is even an old list, and there are plenty of better stuff to upgrade it with in Seb, Chardok, RE2 and Veksar(The Invasion)..Dont be expecting to do the new zones if your too lazy to learn how and where u can get the best available gear for your class tho. Running around in treasured/mastercrafted most likely wont do you any good in these zones.. RoK legendary/fabled pieces will however do.

Jrral

12-02-2008, 06:27 AM

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont be expecting to do the new zones if your too lazy to learn how and where u can get the best available gear for your class tho. Running around in treasured/mastercrafted most likely wont do you any good in these zones.. RoK legendary/fabled pieces will however do.</blockquote>A full Paladin RoK class set (legendary) is hardly treasured/mastercrafted.

Gisallo

12-02-2008, 06:39 AM

here is my concern. I have decided to do a 3 and 3. Now note I am talking as a Zerker who is largely an instance tank, when I raid I currently take my ranger and will eventually be using my Dirge. So I am talking about the Legendary sets. It appears the logic does apply across all of them thoughI took the Helm and gloves from the Zerk/Guard set and the legs from the Hybrid set so I could keep a good balance between the two and the shield block bonus from getting 3 pieces of the hybrid set along with the aggro we'll get from the Zerk set seemed the best, as well as getting more Str (more power!)My concern is that Fyreflyte said this in a prior post reguarding the initial loss of + shield block to the sets, explaining why it was there in the first place and then removed (a good reason I will grant you Sir)."I created these items several months ago, and have been busy with raid gear design up until now. During this time, Aeralik has been involved in some revamping of the way tanks are being balanced, which includes bonuses to their mitigation and avoidance."Now we are only in fighter 1.0. When we get to fighter 2.0 will I find that the set choice (while appearing to be good right now) is no longer good due to how we function then, will I find the gear changed and so I will be saying "dang I should have gotten the helm from the hybrid set instead of the Zerker set?"I hope the answer is "don't sweat it Aeralik told me what going to happen in 2.0 as well so what is good for you today will still be good for you tomorrow, but it does bring a little concern.

Gisallo

12-02-2008, 07:07 AM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Deep forge in general needs to be nerfed mainly on the last named. He is absolutely tearing apart anyone not in really good gear in there, and even with a half raid equiped tank, fully raid equiped shawman, and a warden, we got spanked with ease. The dots he drops are hitting for anywhere from 3k up to 9k, and that is just absolutely silly when you think about how much life he has, how much space those dumbfire pets cover, and how frequently they drop without chance of going away. We should have breezed through there, but instead we broke 2 times. I blame very poor work on the mechanics team, but I guess the developers are making content to please the loyal and screw the non-raid geared its very easy to understand why they did it. It completely boils down to my previous about 200 posts on both here, and eq2flames that"It's not the characters that are broken, it's the rediculously overpowered high end gear thats making them overpowered, and justifying huge nerfs on the entire world purely because less than 0.5% of the population are overpowered."</blockquote>One thing with him. He is a gimick fight. You may be able to have your ranged stay way behind him (we didn't try that), BUT your tank and melee have to stay in front and be constantly moving. His proc for the most part is where he is immediately and where he just was. Keep moving and while it catches you sometimes, its not a complete screw over. Now it seems silly, but I guess this is what they are saying "if you want to win the fight either have uber gear so you can bum rush through" or "take more time and figure it out." Now with some fights, like the last one in Scion of ice, you can figure it out. Him saying "You think you were going somewhere?" right before the AoE is a big hint. If you don't have a killer system though with full particle effects up though, you may miss the visual cue that is there for the fight in Deep Forge. Most of these fights are like this. Go into Hollows and make sure someone is lowering the water level with the named Djinn or you are done, in the Beacon make sure you are possessing the prisoners etc.Seems silly, but since some of these fights are so gimicky, some of my friends and I have (at least for the ones that scale) have done them mentored down so that we have the extra juice (and thus time) to figure out the fights we don't already have the complete strats to, just so we are not saying "we are missing something here". Now obviously you can't use this tactic in the ones in Moors but thems the breaks. Those you learn with repair bills (and with the way drops are there you can't expect them to pay your repair bill while you are still behind on the learning curve <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )

Noaani

12-02-2008, 09:39 AM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont be expecting to do the new zones if your too lazy to learn how and where u can get the best available gear for your class tho. Running around in treasured/mastercrafted most likely wont do you any good in these zones.. RoK legendary/fabled pieces will however do.</blockquote>A full Paladin RoK class set (legendary) is hardly treasured/mastercrafted.</blockquote>Its hardly good, either.No one should have been in a full RoK class set for the last 6 months or so, as better gear is everywhere.Edit: as a positive, you have just confirmed for me my suspicion about the reason a lot of tanks are unable to do well in TSO, they have no idea what good gear is.Thanks for that.

Banditman

12-02-2008, 11:03 AM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont be expecting to do the new zones if your too lazy to learn how and where u can get the best available gear for your class tho. Running around in treasured/mastercrafted most likely wont do you any good in these zones.. RoK legendary/fabled pieces will however do.</blockquote>A full Paladin RoK class set (legendary) is hardly treasured/mastercrafted.</blockquote>RoK Legendary *set* is garbage. Total garbage.Piece together a set out of the BEST armor from RoK, not the set gear. The set gear is . . . terrible. I do wear it in my appearance slot sometimes, at least it looks good.

feldon30

12-02-2008, 12:56 PM

Most of the RoK Legendary sets were terrible and did not play to class characteristics at all. Enchanters and Summoners were stuck with the mage set. Paladins and Shadowknights were probably the worst off though.

Lethe5683

12-02-2008, 01:55 PM

<cite>feldon30 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most of the RoK Legendary sets were terrible and did not play to class characteristics at all. Enchanters and Summoners were stuck with the mage set. Paladins and Shadowknights were probably the worst off though.</blockquote>The brawler set was just as bad, it has stuff like +crusing and +aggression and a bit of DA but no defense, delfection or parry and very little crit (if any).

Vulkan_NTooki

12-03-2008, 05:13 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dont be expecting to do the new zones if your too lazy to learn how and where u can get the best available gear for your class tho. Running around in treasured/mastercrafted most likely wont do you any good in these zones.. RoK legendary/fabled pieces will however do.</blockquote>A full Paladin RoK class set (legendary) is hardly treasured/mastercrafted.</blockquote>Its hardly good, either.No one should have been in a full RoK class set for the last 6 months or so, as better gear is everywhere.Edit: as a positive, you have just confirmed for me my suspicion about the reason a lot of tanks are unable to do well in TSO, they have no idea what good gear is.Thanks for that.</blockquote>Excactly...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

Jusztin

12-03-2008, 07:10 AM

<cite>Fyreflyte wrote:</cite><blockquote>keep in mind that you gain some critical mitigation from either int or agi</blockquote><cite>Praytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Any reason Agi/Int don't show any crit mit in the player window?</blockquote>Please Fyreflyte, why its not shown in the persona window?

Fyreflyte

12-03-2008, 04:45 PM

No idea. I'll ask around as see what's going on with that (I noticed the spell haste and recovery scores aren't working either).

de lori

12-03-2008, 06:21 PM

<cite>Fyreflyte wrote:</cite><blockquote>No idea. I'll ask around as see what's going on with that (I noticed the spell haste and recovery scores aren't working either).</blockquote>Reuse aswell....I think youd need to break these down into beneficial and hostile.... the dynamic data will never return a correct overall value for cast and reuse when we have different amounts for hostile/beneficial spellsBase dmg and crit are now inaccurate due to individual spells/ dmg types being modded through AA

Wrapye

12-03-2008, 06:53 PM

<cite>Charayne@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fyreflyte wrote:</cite><blockquote>No idea. I'll ask around as see what's going on with that (I noticed the spell haste and recovery scores aren't working either).</blockquote>Reuse aswell....I think youd need to break these down into beneficial and hostile.... the dynamic data will never return a correct overall value for cast and reuse when we have different amounts for hostile/beneficial spellsBase dmg and crit are now inaccurate due to individual spells/ dmg types being modded through AA</blockquote>I had a discussion with Rothgar about that, he being in charge of that potion of the UI. Essentially it boils down to that hostile/beneficial values are calculated on the fly each time, not stored as dynamic data, so there will not be values for those that can be displayed. I expressed the opinion that the recast value as it stands it pretty useless, for the reasons that you stated. Rothgar's response was that perhaps that was the case for my class, but not for others. /shrug.

Meirril

12-03-2008, 09:45 PM

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why do ppl keep saying raid equipped.. You can do ALL the easy/moderate zones in gear from RoK instances/quests.Add in fabled epic, and a shield from Vaults(first named) and your golden.<table style="width: 322pt; border-collapse: collapse;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="429"><colgroup span="1"><col span="2" width="80"></col><col span="1" width="269"></col></colgroup><tbody><tr height="17"><td width="80" height="17"> </td><td width="80">Head</td><td width="269"><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-664061834">Bloodied Chitin Helm</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Shoulder</td><td><a title="FABLED" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/296465230">Mantle of the Jarsath Tribe</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td>Chest</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1529693601">Breastplate of Deflection</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Cloak</td><td><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1521698005">Drape of the BlackHearted</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Forearm</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-61520915">Armguards of the Elite Yha-lei Shock Troops</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Hands</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2083821507">Gwalnax Brigade Gauntlets</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Legs</td><td><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1753051492">Dreadscale Greaves</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Feet</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-856068045">Bloodied Chitin Boots</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Neck</td><td><a title="FABLED" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/717281040">Ganak's Torque</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Earring 1</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/720382416">Incarnadine Earring</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Earring 2</td><td><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/1351181671">Earing of Sedition</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Ring 1</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-79216311">Lost Ring of the Tides</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Ring 2</td><td><a title="FABLED" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1849211307">Band of Thuuga</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Wrist 1</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-316707994">Nak'azar Brigade Bracers</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Wrist 2</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2079592809">Shackles of the Court</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Waist</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2126593866">Baldric of the Di'Zok Warlord</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Ranged</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1692779064">Warlord's Long Bow of Defense</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Charm</td><td><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/505019253">Drolvarg Weapons Emblem</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Charm</td><td><a title="FABLED" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/41729229">Scale of the Leviathan</a></td></tr></tbody></table> This is even an old list, and there are plenty of better stuff to upgrade it with in Seb, Chardok, RE2 and Veksar(The Invasion)..Dont be expecting to do the new zones if your too lazy to learn how and where u can get the best available gear for your class tho. Running around in treasured/mastercrafted most likely wont do you any good in these zones.. RoK legendary/fabled pieces will however do.</blockquote>I'd say that my paladin has slightly better gear than this list. I usally run with 2 healers. In deep forge, we made a lot of attempts at the boss. The best attempt we had we managed to get him down to 40% and we were about half way around the room. Boss did a double attack+crit resulting in 14k damage. With full buffs I have 15k hp.We didn't get him down to less than half his life because we depended on gear to tank and spank him. We got him down to 40% because we had him figured out. Everybody was on their game. The only failure we had was gear. Either I needed the HP bonus from RoK fabled gear, or the crit mittigation offered in TSO. Even with those, it wouldn't of been an easy fight. We would of needed to use the same tactics I used.So either the mobs need to be toned down, or the equipment needs to be beefed up. I'm thinking the mobs need a revamp because new players leveling into 80 won't be able to get groups in RoK to gear them up.Or maybe they need to be in raid guilds so they can skip RoK all together?

ke'la

12-04-2008, 02:21 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why do ppl keep saying raid equipped.. You can do ALL the easy/moderate zones in gear from RoK instances/quests.Add in fabled epic, and a shield from Vaults(first named) and your golden.<table style="width: 322pt; border-collapse: collapse;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="429"><colgroup span="1"><col span="2" width="80"></col><col span="1" width="269"></col></colgroup><tbody><tr height="17"><td width="80" height="17"> </td><td width="80">Head</td><td width="269"><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-664061834">Bloodied Chitin Helm</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Shoulder</td><td><a title="FABLED" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/296465230">Mantle of the Jarsath Tribe</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Chest</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1529693601">Breastplate of Deflection</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Cloak</td><td><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1521698005">Drape of the BlackHearted</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Forearm</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-61520915">Armguards of the Elite Yha-lei Shock Troops</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Hands</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2083821507">Gwalnax Brigade Gauntlets</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Legs</td><td><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1753051492">Dreadscale Greaves</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Feet</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-856068045">Bloodied Chitin Boots</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Neck</td><td><a title="FABLED" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/717281040">Ganak's Torque</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Earring 1</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/720382416">Incarnadine Earring</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Earring 2</td><td><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/1351181671">Earing of Sedition</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Ring 1</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-79216311">Lost Ring of the Tides</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Ring 2</td><td><a title="FABLED" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1849211307">Band of Thuuga</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Wrist 1</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-316707994">Nak'azar Brigade Bracers</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Wrist 2</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2079592809">Shackles of the Court</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Waist</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/2126593866">Baldric of the Di'Zok Warlord</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Ranged</td><td><a title="LEGENDARY" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1692779064">Warlord's Long Bow of Defense</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Charm</td><td><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/505019253">Drolvarg Weapons Emblem</a></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"> </td><td>Charm</td><td><a title="FABLED" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/41729229">Scale of the Leviathan</a></td></tr></tbody></table> This is even an old list, and there are plenty of better stuff to upgrade it with in Seb, Chardok, RE2 and Veksar(The Invasion)..Dont be expecting to do the new zones if your too lazy to learn how and where u can get the best available gear for your class tho. Running around in treasured/mastercrafted most likely wont do you any good in these zones.. RoK legendary/fabled pieces will however do.</blockquote>I'd say that my paladin has slightly better gear than this list. I usally run with 2 healers. In deep forge, we made a lot of attempts at the boss. The best attempt we had we managed to get him down to 40% and we were about half way around the room. Boss did a double attack+crit resulting in 14k damage. With full buffs I have 15k hp.We didn't get him down to less than half his life because we depended on gear to tank and spank him. We got him down to 40% because we had him figured out. Everybody was on their game. The only failure we had was gear. Either I needed the HP bonus from RoK fabled gear, or the crit mittigation offered in TSO. Even with those, it wouldn't of been an easy fight. We would of needed to use the same tactics I used.So either the mobs need to be toned down, or the equipment needs to be beefed up. I'm thinking the mobs need a revamp because new players leveling into 80 won't be able to get groups in RoK to gear them up.Or maybe they need to be in raid guilds so they can skip RoK all together?</blockquote>Or maybe they should follow the TSO progression and not goto Deep Forge, until gearing up in the easier TSO dungons.

Gisallo

12-04-2008, 06:59 AM

Actually Deep Forge (according to SOE) is supposed to be one of the easier instances in TSO, so there is an issue with how hard he can crit. At least it was described as such in the Beta forums<shrug>

Jrral

12-04-2008, 08:01 AM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd say that my paladin has slightly better gear than this list. I usally run with 2 healers. In deep forge, we made a lot of attempts at the boss. The best attempt we had we managed to get him down to 40% and we were about half way around the room. Boss did a double attack+crit resulting in 14k damage. With full buffs I have 15k hp.</blockquote>It's not just Deep Forge. We re-ran RE2 tonight, and the mobs in there were hitting harder than the ones in Deep Forge. Slamhammer, 5500+ DPS. I've tanked that zone on a berserker wearing Di'Zok plate before, and wasn't taking half as much damage as our paladin (geared better than the list given earlier) took tonight. Either that zone got a real bump up in difficulty with TSO, or something's odd.

Vulkan_NTooki

12-04-2008, 08:02 AM

Imho deep forge is rediculously(sp?) easy.. we did him with bruiser tanking the first time.. no issues..My current equipment setup when in Defensive setup is;Click my signature to see it..But I also tanked the Fire lord in offensive stance/gear.. where my avoidance drop to 40ish, and mit to 45ish..If u use the moving around strat, and everyone in group is in front of the boss, then u should have no issues on this mob. Maybe he got lucky once and u took a lot of dmg, but normally 2 healers (provided not 2 fury's) should be able to keep u up easy.

Xanrn

12-04-2008, 02:04 PM

Why do Fighters get their Crit Mit from Agi?Why the hell do Mages get a free pass for their Crit Mit Stat?It should be the primary stat for all classes or none, abosolute BS.

Banditman

12-04-2008, 02:16 PM

I "sort of" understand why it was done this way, but I do think it should be revisited.Scouts for instance get power from both STR and AGI. Crusaders I think get it from STR and either WIS or INT.Basically, it would seem to make more sense for all classes to get their Critical Mitigation from "whatever" gives them their power pool. This "base" level of Critical Mitigation is very limited anyway (10%) so it would seem a "nice" gesture to compute it this way.

Oakum

12-04-2008, 05:55 PM

INT can be the worst stat for half the priest classes if they are melee spec. Priest should be wisdom, if not wis then either STR or INT.

denmom

12-05-2008, 02:24 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I "sort of" understand why it was done this way, but I do think it should be revisited.Scouts for instance get power from both STR and AGI. Crusaders I think get it from STR and either WIS or INT.Basically, it would seem to make more sense for all classes to get their Critical Mitigation from "whatever" gives them their power pool. This "base" level of Critical Mitigation is very limited anyway (10%) so it would seem a "nice" gesture to compute it this way.</blockquote>It depends on the Scout. Some are agi only, others are int/agi, not sure which has str/agi for power. For Crusaders, Paladin are str/wis, SKs are str/int.What sucks is that my Warden's int stat is slowly bottoming out due to how little int is on the high wis jewelry. I've had to resort to adornments to nudge it back up but it's yet to reach back to what it was when my Warden was in mastercrafted. I don't want to go back to mc'd, legendary items have better wis and things like Manawell but the int blows.Comparing the new TSO armour to currently equipped Sylvan Moon armour, the int just drops. If priests need int for their crit mit, what's out there won't do the job for them. They'll have to resort to cloth and jewelry that's more for casters than priests which isn't a good idea because of the wis hit.

feldon30

12-05-2008, 01:57 PM

Adornments. Not a perfect solution but if you must have INT...Again it takes so many points of INT to raise crit mit by 1 point I can't see completely changing gear to get it.Especially when you've got a single pice of Avatar gear that has 40 points of Crit Mit.

12-05-2008, 05:30 PM

Ah yes. Firelord Kaern. Solo healed him many times on my Fury. Tank is legendary equipped with some fabled. No-one in the group has TSO greater shard armor yet.That fight really comes down to how good your whole group is at working together and coordinating their attacks. Also some luck with avoiding/mitigating crits.My recommendation:Tank (any type, i tend to prefer a crusader for this fight)Healer (druids are best for this fight but any healer who knows how to play their class will work)Illusionist or TroubDPS1 (ranger works best in my experience)DPS2 (sorc or summoner)DPS3 (any)Strat:1. Healer wears their heal set, emphasize cast-time/re-use speed gear. Important to cast FAST in this fight. Fury is perfect for it due to incredibly fast cast times. Wear some mana-well/sprinkler/pond-wash items. This fight can go on reasonably long and you dont want to run out of power.2. Buff your healer: If you have an illusionist or troub have them keep Time Compression (illy) or Jester's Cap (troub) on the healer. Coercer can help with coercive healing if they have it.3. Buff your tank: Give him lots of avoidance, heat mitigation, agility and raw crit mitigation also (As a Fury I always place Feral on the tank for this mob). If your using a Brawler in your 3rd dps slot then have him give the MT his avoidance -- helps a lot. Tank must NOT use buff or stance that slows their movement speed down4. Have group stand back. MT range pull the named with a decent taunt. Immediately snare it to slow its movement-speed down (various classes can do this including druids). Apply any serious offensive debuffs in the first 5 seconds of the fight. Hold off on any serious DPS for the first 5-10 secs (just debuff). Keep it snared during the fight (helps significantly)5. Group should remain behind (or on if you need melee range) the tank at all times. Casters/healers/rangers should maintain at least 10m behind the tank at all times. Tank needs to tank it one spot for 2-3 seconds then move backwards at least 6m to avoid the magma burst AE from the sparkling "bomb" the mob places on the ground. DPS should use stuns and stifles whenever they are up. Keep moving!!6. Healers: You need to cast hard and fast. Stay behind the tank and out of that AE at all times. Use every healing spell in your arsenal to keep the tank alive. Throw in some group healing at sporadic intervals to catch people who get hit by magma burst. Keep a constant stream of healing at all times. The spike damage on this mob is insane, your tank can go from 50% to dead in an instant if you get unlucky. Don't worry about curing the elemental DoT since its harmless -- all it does is debuff up to 75% of movement speed bonuses on the person hit by it. This is a TOUGH fight for a healer since your constantly on the move and you're healing a mob that would be challenging even if you were parked in a corner standing still. Long cast times are your enemy, avoid your lengthy spells (it's really designed for a Druid healer imho).

Sharakari

12-05-2008, 05:52 PM

<cite>Fyreflyte wrote:</cite><blockquote>.....and that certain classes can debuff a mob's critical mult.......</blockquote>I'm jumping in on this thread late! Can you please tell me which classes? Will Serene Symbol debuff it? That little tidbit of information may be what we need to finally drop this guy!

Fyreflyte

12-05-2008, 06:13 PM

The end AA of the TSO predator line debuffs it. There may be a couple other classes that have it as an AA as well, I'm not sure offhand.

Sharakari

12-05-2008, 06:21 PM

<cite>Fyreflyte wrote:</cite><blockquote>The end AA of the TSO predator line debuffs it. There may be a couple other classes that have it as an AA as well, I'm not sure offhand.</blockquote>Sweet... thanks for the reply! I'll take a look at the Predator ability and see what it says. Maybe I have something as a Fury (Seren Symbol?) that can debuff it as well.

Banditman

12-05-2008, 06:35 PM

Serene Symbol strips (or tries to strip) beneficial buffs from a mob. It's not a debuff in the purest sense. It's a buff remover.It's a Druid thing, not Fury specific.It's possible Serene Symbol got an upgrade in TSO that made it do "more", I don't know, I haven't really digested the full TSO tree for every class. I don't think this is the case, but I could very well be wrong.Necromancers have a pet that debuffs, though I couldn't tell you exactly what it debuffs.

Sharakari

12-05-2008, 06:41 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Serene Symbol strips (or tries to strip) beneficial buffs from a mob. It's not a debuff in the purest sense. It's a buff remover.It's a Druid thing, not Fury specific.It's possible Serene Symbol got an upgrade in TSO that made it do "more", I don't know, I haven't really digested the full TSO tree for every class. I don't think this is the case, but I could very well be wrong.Necromancers have a pet that debuffs, though I couldn't tell you exactly what it debuffs.</blockquote>"Dispels beneficial cold, disease, divine, heat and poison effects on target"Yep... your right. I'm at work and couldn't remember. I have been DPS spec'd a lot lately but TSO has kinda forced me back to my heal spec a lot more..... and that's not a complaint.

Meirril

12-05-2008, 09:48 PM

<cite>Vulkan_NTooki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Imho deep forge is rediculously(sp?) easy.. we did him with bruiser tanking the first time.. no issues..My current equipment setup when in Defensive setup is;Click my signature to see it..But I also tanked the Fire lord in offensive stance/gear.. where my avoidance drop to 40ish, and mit to 45ish..If u use the moving around strat, and everyone in group is in front of the boss, then u should have no issues on this mob. Maybe he got lucky once and u took a lot of dmg, but normally 2 healers (provided not 2 fury's) should be able to keep u up easy.</blockquote>Hmm...so a Mythical equipped paladin doesn't have any trouble with the zone? Yeah, if I took 20% less damage I'd probably do a lot better myself. While your paladin isn't fully raid equipped, its got a few fabled peices and the mythical makes a huge difference. Calling your paladin "instance geared" is a joke. People that just run instances do not have mythicals unless they have or bought very good friends in major raid guilds.I call your opinion suspect at best.