Again again

[Eveningdress]

<p>At Group play.</p><p>Once again we are not favorite class of mage. also summoner.</p><p>always ppl are find enchanter of mage. because they have good buff(impetus, tandem, DA), mez, unlimited mana and massive dps. etc</p><p>TSO looks like RoK version 2. I was some disappointed. If I tank will find enchanter.</p><p>BTW i don't want enchanter nerf.</p><p>but give us big other type utility at GU51</p><p>ps. pls give back us propagation.</p>

[Windowlicker]

<p>That's like saying you'd rather have a Dirge then a Swashbuckler.  They bring completely different things to a group.  An Illusionist isn't nearly as useful VS multi-mob encounters as a Warlock is.</p><p>Sure the illusionist can mez the encounter and you can DPS down each one seperately, but that takes forever.  A Warlock can burn down the entire group in almost the same time the Illusionist is taking down one.</p><p>The illusionist is great for spike damage or short fights vs Single mobs.  The Warlock shines on multi's or longer fights.  You can't really compare the two, and would actually see more benefit from having both then only taking one.</p>

[revren]

<p>Hey Hey</p><p>I have found finding a group very easy, however finding a tank who can hold agro, now thats a horse of a diifrent color.  There have been times i have been very gratefull for a good illy or coercer, in my group , when even when i turn my Mythical on the tank can't keep me up.</p><p>On a side note having Prop back to how it was , would make make me a happy camper, seems to be more proc gear this xpac then ROK.</p><p>Welcome Home</p><p>Rev</p>

[thajo]

<p>I've seen maybe 50% or more of the instances.  A warlock should be dominating dps (in general) in these zones.  It's like they were made for warlocks hehe.  I mean if someone doesn't want a warlock in their group, they are denying one of the classes with the most room to excell in dps this expansion with its encounter make-up.</p>

[Windowlicker]

<p><cite>Dakkota@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've seen maybe 50% or more of the instances.  A warlock should be dominating dps (in general) in these zones.  It's like they were made for warlocks hehe.  I mean if someone doesn't want a warlock in their group, they are denying one of the classes with the most room to excell in dps this expansion with its encounter make-up.</p></blockquote><p>And this is where we should be as a class.  T1 DPS.</p><p>I know a few people were more then happy to call "The Warlock is fine" during RoK, but it wasn't.  We're balanced with multi-mob targets in mind, without those?  We fall short.</p><p>It's refreshing to say the least.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>every forum has one of these threads, it's kinda sad really. with all the AE encounters now i have no clue why any group would try to keep a warlock out, but that is the mentality(or stupidity rather) that some people hold onto when forming their groups.</p>

[Stratz]

<p>I don't see what all the fuss is about. These heroic instances were pretty much made to be destroyed by warlocks, and in raids, single target or AE, our class still performs well. Single target we can still compete high on parses, and AE it's pretty uncontested that a warlock will (a) top the parse by a considerable margin or (b) die. Lately i've found option b to be the more frequent one.</p>

[Illine]

<p><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's like saying you'd rather have a Dirge then a Swashbuckler.  They bring completely different things to a group.  An Illusionist isn't nearly as useful VS multi-mob encounters as a Warlock is.</p><p>Sure the illusionist can mez the encounter and you can DPS down each one seperately, but that takes forever.  A Warlock can burn down the entire group in almost the same time the Illusionist is taking down one.</p><p>The illusionist is great for spike damage or short fights vs Single mobs.  The Warlock shines on multi's or longer fights.  You can't really compare the two, and would actually see more benefit from having both then only taking one.</p></blockquote><p>a coercer can deal a great amount of damage versus multi encounter.</p><p>but that's not was th OP said I think ... he said if you compare what the three classes bring in a group, warlock are behind. The +dps they bring is not enough compared to the utility of enchanters. and if the warlock dps too much he dies.</p><p>so the dps a warlock can do is limited by the tank to hold aggro while the utility enchanters bring is not limited</p>

[Windowlicker]

<p><cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's like saying you'd rather have a Dirge then a Swashbuckler.  They bring completely different things to a group.  An Illusionist isn't nearly as useful VS multi-mob encounters as a Warlock is.</p><p>Sure the illusionist can mez the encounter and you can DPS down each one seperately, but that takes forever.  A Warlock can burn down the entire group in almost the same time the Illusionist is taking down one.</p><p>The illusionist is great for spike damage or short fights vs Single mobs.  The Warlock shines on multi's or longer fights.  You can't really compare the two, and would actually see more benefit from having both then only taking one.</p></blockquote><p>a coercer can deal a great amount of damage versus multi encounter.</p><p>but that's not was th OP said I think ... he said if you compare what the three classes bring in a group, warlock are behind. The +dps they bring is not enough compared to the utility of enchanters. and if the warlock dps too much he dies.</p><p>so the dps a warlock can do is limited by the tank to hold aggro while the utility enchanters bring is not limited</p></blockquote><p>Playing this game from release, I have never seen a coercer even come close to a Warlock AE parse.  The point is the Coercer is a support class and the Warlock is not.</p><p>With TSO content, we are desired again.  Perhaps not any moreso in a raid setting, but vs Instanced content we are.</p><p>You can't compare what a utility class brings to a group vs what a pure DPS class brings to the group.  There's no comparing.  And frankly a coercer won't touch a warlock VS anything with a large pool of HP.</p><p>Of course you'll pass us on single target mobs with low HP.  We don't shine until we fight something with more HP.</p>

[Stratz]

<p>Comparing dps between classes on heroic content is a poor choice imo. Heroic content boils down to who can mash buttons faster, there is no skill involved and it does not allow the potential of ANY class to be shown.</p>

[revren]

<p>Hey Hey</p><p>I have seen some Coercers do amazing parse's , maybe not as good as a warlock on a mid to long time fight , but defintly on a short fight.  Hell Every one is a dps class now ;></p><p>Regardless people want Mezzers becouse it is easy , and there tanks are cr@p. <no offense to Coercers/illy > The idea that they are just a support class has been thrown out the window. But hell thats a horse of a diffrent color.</p>

[Windowlicker]

<p><cite>Stratz@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Comparing dps between classes on heroic content is a poor choice imo. Heroic content boils down to who can mash buttons faster, there is no skill involved and it does not allow the potential of ANY class to be shown.</p></blockquote><p>Agreed 100%</p>

[Araxes]

<p>The issue is not that we aren't capable.</p><p>The issue is that 90% of tanks, and all tanks who aren't raid geared, cannot hold aggro off of a warlock even when the warlock is going half-mast on DPS.  I've seen it over and over again.</p><p>Therefore, most tanks (and thus their respective groups and healers) would rather pick a "safe" class like a summoner or enchanter, than deal with their own insecurity about holding aggro.</p><p>The ONLY time I can go hog wild and parse 12k or whatever is when I am with a fabled, raid-standard MT. </p><p>Otherwise I censor myself, so to say.</p><p>That is the issue and as other classes perceive warlocks through this filter we have gained the rep of being a highly unstable and volatile class to have in a group -- thus people do not want to deal with us.</p><p>(EDIT - we can hope that this second wave of fighter changes will help alleviate some of that stress -- as there will be more responsibility on the tanks themselves and less on other classes supplying them with hate -- which I have to assume means bigger taunts and re-adjusted hate scale.  Or at least the opprotunity to SEE our hate on a parse, which in itself will do wonders.)</p><p>Ara</p>

[Windowlicker]

<p>I don't have hate problems worse then anyone else.  Also, I'm typically on top of the parse if not very close to it.</p><p>Quite a bit has to do with how your casting, and what your casting on.  Having a Mythical also makes a huge difference when you switch your encounter spells to single target.</p>

[Eveningdress]

<p>yep. I have VP full set and mithycal. and forearm slot is hoshkar drop item.(+7crit forearms), +4crit +2crit earring,  negative channeler 4crit 5casting ring,burning band 5 crit ring, re2 3crit wirts, vek 3crit 3casting writs, trak 10crit belt. total crit is 90%over. but have not dark dealing hat, wicked wand charm.</p><p>I'm not bad play style. sometimes my parser is top. even single target.  and always top If encounter.</p><p>althought I have many VP gear, most ppl find enchanter of mage. because just we are ONLY PURE DPS. if hard instance zone. althought same guild mate, they are never find sorcerer. they find dps +@ class.</p><p>first tank, bard, healer is essentiality. other 3 room for illy, coer, logue, 2nd healer, other bard. that class has like sorcerer dps + has important buff, important debuff</p><p>In conclusion.  we need a little +Alpha.</p><p>p.s Sorry sorry English is not my no.1 language. forgive me about english. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

[SageGaspar]

<p>This isn't really a solution, but find a decent pally and you are set.</p><p>Another thing you can do is pick a target *other* than the main tank's target when you are AEing, and use bewilderment on it a bit into the fight, this will drop your aggro with it significantly. When I run instances with large groups of mobs I am rarely targeting the same mob in the encounter that the rest of the group is targeting, although in my case it's usually with someone who has solid aggro so it's just so that I can keep the DPS flowing smoothly without changing targets when one dies <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p><p>If it's an encounter that will die quickly, in a good group you can just stand on the tank and go hog wild and it will blow up before you die. There are a couple pieces of easily available dispersion gear that will help out a ton with this.</p><p>If it's a long encounter you can lead off with debuff, armageddon, then work the deaggros and the single target DPS a bit before you get back into the AEs.</p><p>Finally if you are continually having very serious hate problems, in this expansion I would actually consider trying an AA spec moving points from WIS into INT or something like that. If it means being able to PUG and blow up encounters with impunity it is absolutely more worth it than being miserable and having a bit of base damage.</p>

[Eveningdress]

<p>my focus is not DPS. We are dps top tier class. no problem about dps. but other top tier class(assa,ranger) has dps+debuff.</p><p>BTW. We are not fevorite class because only pure dps. just I hope strong buff  that can give to group mate.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Araxes@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Therefore, most tanks (and thus their respective groups and healers) would rather pick a "safe" class like a summoner or enchanter, than deal with their own insecurity about holding aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Summoners (Conjurors in particular) are having some aggro issues this expansion too. I don't trust any non-raid equipped tank to hold off me or my pet anymore on AoE fights because they simply can't match the aggro. Even a paladin with amends will struggle.</p><p>Best bet is to make sure there's some kind of utility class to offset this (bard/enchanter), either thru buffing the tank's hate or dps, or reducing your own hate gain, or both.</p>

[Windowlicker]

<p><cite>nereid27 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>my focus is not DPS. We are dps top tier class. no problem about dps. but other top tier class(assa,ranger) has dps+debuff.</p><p>BTW. We are not fevorite class because only pure dps. just I hope strong buff  that can give to group mate.</p></blockquote><p>You are playing the wrong class.  The Warlock is pure DPS.  If you want anything else, you should re-roll.</p><p>Might I suggest a support class.</p>

[AziBam]

<p><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>nereid27 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>my focus is not DPS. We are dps top tier class. no problem about dps. but other top tier class(assa,ranger) has dps+debuff.</p><p>BTW. We are not fevorite class because only pure dps. just I hope strong buff  that can give to group mate.</p></blockquote><p>You are playing the wrong class.  The Warlock is pure DPS.  If you want anything else, you should re-roll.</p><p>Might I suggest a support class.</p></blockquote><p>Overall, I agree that warlocks really are at the pure dps end of the spectrum.  However, why is it that getting some additional utility would be bad?  I've often seen comments like this from the "tier one" dps classes.  These comments frequently come from people like yourself Zahne that are very experienced and knowledgeable of their class.  Please don't misunderstand, this isn't an attack.  I'm just always surprised at the resistance to utility that often arises from players over "we are dps and should only have more dps and I don't want utility because that isn't my class" type of attitude. </p><p>Think about it.  How many sorcerors are typically on a raid?  1-2.  How many bards?  5-6.  How many chanters?  Often 4 (and I really should clarify 3 Illy and one coercer.) Those are the classes that get the lions share of raid slots and it's because of their utility not their dps.  Sure, they can do pretty solid dps, particularly the chanters, but that isn't why raid leaders want them there.  A well played sorceror is still going to out-dps a well played (insert utility class here).  They want the bards for the melee and caster goodness that ensues for their group/raid.  They want the Illy for that IA and TC etc.  They want that coercer for coercive healing and the hate transfer.  The "utility" classes are more than just utility these days.  I don't expect that to change and I don't think anyone else should either.  This means, the "dps" classes SHOULD expect to keep their solid damage but also should look to find other ways to help not only themselves but others do their jobs more effectively. </p><p>For grouping heroic instances, most groups would LIKE to have at least one of the bard/chanter type classes (because of their utility) but beyond that there certainly isn't any reason to take an Illy over a lock or a dirge over a ranger etc.</p>

[Fendaria]

<p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;"></span></p><p>Overall, I agree that warlocks really are at the pure dps end of the spectrum.  However, why is it that getting some additional utility would be bad?  I've often seen comments like this from the "tier one" dps classes.  These comments frequently come from people like yourself Zahne that are very experienced and knowledgeable of their class.  Please don't misunderstand, this isn't an attack.  I'm just always surprised at the resistance to utility that often arises from players over "we are dps and should only have more dps and I don't want utility because that isn't my class" type of attitude. </p><p>Think about it.  How many sorcerors are typically on a raid?  1-2.  How many bards?  5-6.  How many chanters?  Often 4 (and I really should clarify 3 Illy and one coercer.) Those are the classes that get the lions share of raid slots and it's because of their utility not their dps.  Sure, they can do pretty solid dps, particularly the chanters, but that isn't why raid leaders want them there.  A well played sorceror is still going to out-dps a well played (insert utility class here).  They want the bards for the melee and caster goodness that ensues for their group/raid.  They want the Illy for that IA and TC etc.  They want that coercer for coercive healing and the hate transfer.  The "utility" classes are more than just utility these days.  I don't expect that to change and I don't think anyone else should either.  This means, the "dps" classes SHOULD expect to keep their solid damage but also should look to find other ways to help not only themselves but others do their jobs more effectively. </p><p>For grouping heroic instances, most groups would LIKE to have at least one of the bard/chanter type classes (because of their utility) but beyond that there certainly isn't any reason to take an Illy over a lock or a dirge over a ranger etc.</p></blockquote><p>I picked a warlock cause I wanted to do more DPS than someone else.  At the end of a fight I want to hear people say 'Wow, look how fast they all died'.  By being a 'pure' DPS class the implicit assumption is our DPS should be higher than anyone elses, since that is all we do, it is our specialization.  If we had some utility, then there is the belief that our specialization in DPS would become tainted; we would have to loose something to gain that utility and the only thing we have to loose is DPS.  I believe this is generally the same from Wizards, Rangers, and Assassins.</p><p>Look at the Conj vrs Warlock DPS arguments.  Both classes have a very strong AE focus.  Who should do more?  Why Warlocks of course because we don't have the utility or flexibility they have from buffs or pet.  (Not arguing this is correct or not, but its the general way arguments like this run).</p><p>As for Illys (and bards and coercers) in general 5 players + Illy is stronger than 5 players + almost anyone else.  This is why they are so many in a raid, and their DPS is a part of that.  The fact that a well played sorcerer can out DPS an Illy is why you don't see even more of them on a raid right now.</p><p>I also believe it has to do with the fact that encounters and gear are built around the assumptions of having an Illy in your group.  I'll use manaregen as my example.  Without both sources of manaregen, I run out of power quickly and my DPS suffers significantly.  With only one, I can feel it, especially on longer fights.  With two (buff and song), I'm generally doing ok and don't have to worry about it very much.  (And maybe regen for you its not a big deal, but for me it is very significant).</p><p>Now ask yourself why?  The answer is Sony wants the game this way.  Their are a lot of ways they could change this.  Better mana regen on items, cheaper spell costs, better self mana regen spells.  They could have designed mana consumption such that we would only run really run out of mana if the mob had a special AE attack, and hence the mana buff and regen enc and bards provide is needed much much less.  Sony designed the game such that they expect (arguablly require) you to have access to that hightened level of mana regen.</p><p>Fendaria</p>

[AziBam]

<p><cite>Fendaria wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I picked a warlock cause I wanted to do more DPS than someone else.  At the end of a fight I want to hear people say 'Wow, look how fast they all died'.  By being a 'pure' DPS class the implicit assumption is our DPS should be higher than anyone elses, since that is all we do, it is our specialization.  If we had some utility, then there is the belief that our specialization in DPS would become tainted; we would have to loose something to gain that utility and the only thing we have to loose is DPS.  I believe this is generally the same from Wizards, Rangers, and Assassins.</p></blockquote><p>I understand the argument that the fear or downside of utility is less dps although I really don't agree with it.  I guess it has to do with my personal interpretation of "utility".  I think anything that brings benefit to someone other than just yourself (and I don't mean things being dead faster at your hand) is a form of utlity. </p><p>For warlocks, I'd be inclined to say that the type of utility we need is something that augments not only our dps but others around us as well.  An example is the wizard velium gift/Iceshape combo.  The wizard's dps goes up but so does that of any other spell caster in the group.  The pre-nerf/fix version of propogations is another example.  Something along the lines of turning our curse spells into a temp buff spell proc for the group or a temp group casting speed/reuse buff or..well...ANYTHING other than what they are now. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Lord knows they need something done with them but that literally is already another thread.  I just think that "utility" doen't have to be a dirty word for dps classes.  It can and should be something that is desireable for both the individual class and player and those that play with them.</p>